I thought you would be, I am sry. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics last year and has been considered one of the most influential Economist in the world.
That aside maybe taking a look at it via a socioeconomical perspective may help.
I love how ya’ll over exaggerate what you think the other side’s stance is and continually try to use that exaggerated stance to belittle the other side. It’s just so effective!
We know what economic inequality is. We are aware that there is a huge gap between the wealthiest players who play the TP and the average player. But we aren’t cartoon scrouge mcducks who go swimming in their money and get kicks out of watching the average player struggle to pay for what he needs as we bleed their money dry from their pockets. Every time someone comes into this forum to ask advice on how to make money, the same people you are insulting are giving advice on how to do so intelligently and safely. And no matter how many times you shout these slurs or economic inequality to make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground, you still haven’t provided any valid ways to reduce this gap. So go stand on your mountain of good intentions but stop yelling down at us how we are hurting people when that is all you have suggested.
You must not have read posts dating back to the beginning of the game. This is not a new subject. Many suggestions have been given which were immediately met with throws of condescension. That is a reoccurring theme here.
I am merely reverberating that which has been broadcasted. Welcome to the discussion btw.
^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable
Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.
How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?
Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?
Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.
Not everyone just certain ppl that treat others in that same manner. IE don’t dish out what you yourself cannot take. Since there isn’t any moderation against posters dolling it out, I don’t see any reason there should be any when it comes back to them.
Since when arent these forums moderated?
Did I say they weren’t at all? No. I noted that one specific aspect was not being moderated against.
^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable
Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.
How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?
Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?
Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.
Not everyone just certain ppl that treat others in that same manner. IE don’t dish out what you yourself cannot take. Since there isn’t any moderation against posters dolling it out, I don’t see any reason there should be any when it comes back to them.
PS: I thought you were going to stop responding to me? Might do us both a favor and do what you said.
Or maybe…just maybe…some posters band together and jump on anyone who dare post anything other than the highest praise regarding the tp. It’s pretty evident if you look through the threads in this section. It happens every time and has resulted in this section being inhospitable to most I dare say.
Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.
Ohoni really has a leg up on ya’ll. The majority of their posts are rather constructive. I guess that’s why they get snide replies like the one quoted.
That aside. I take it you do not care for getting a taste of your own medicine. Which is fantastic to know.
There’s no point in of a proper thought out suggestion on a forum infested with mmo forum goers. The median is not very productive..we all know this. Lots of mmo forum goers simply post to mess with other ppl for one reason or another. If I thought that something good might have a chance of coming from it, I might. But realistically there isn’t a chance in he double hockey sticks.
Just pointing out the obvious….tis all.
Gonna give this a break for today…bb tomorrow….lol
Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.
You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.
What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?
It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.
I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol
But a progressive tax on what? Net worth?
A progressive tax on transaction price only “hurts” the wealthy, since that’s the whole point about this discussion, if their wealth only came from flippy high priced items instead of flipping a metric ton of low priced items, earning a little off of each.
“Hey, you won the lottery and found a precursor but it’s for a weapon you don’t use. Now you can sell it for a ton of gold but the new progressive tax will take a much larger chunk because you must be a rich flipper.”
It would be on the gold collected via the tp. So lets say in a given week you took out 70g, well then you’d be taxed at the normal rate of 15%. If you took out 140g, then you’d taxed at 20%, etc etc. Ofc this is just an example for the sake of providing an example.
The players that mostly use the tp for day to day transactions wouldn’t see any difference. Those that got lucky with a drop would still be lucky for the drop just not as much gold would come from it. They’d still be profiting from the drop much more than from any normal drop. Those that make massive profit on the tp would be the ones effected. They’d still be the richest, as playing the tp would still be the most profitable method of obtaining gold, but at a reduced rate. They just have to work a bit harder if the wanted what they don’t need.
So somebody who farms more than 10g of loot per day, will get punished?
People who get a valuable item worth more than 70g will get punished?
Someone, who makes 4% profit (after fees and taxes) while trading 140g worth of goods in a week will actually make a loss of 1% at the end of the week?
And how are taxes collected retroactively? Will Evon make house calls?
What if i hide my gold in a guild bank? Will i get banned from the TP?
I know that you said its just an example but unfortunately its a bad one at that because it wont change the fact that some people earn more on the tp than others in pve. So why change the system, if it hurts everybody and doesnt change the status quo?
Everything there is semantics…………you even admit it. So what was the point of even posting it?
Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.
You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.
What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?
It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.
I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol
ALL OVER this anti-rich envy thing… I get the external influence that’s causing this, but this irrational disdain of anyone with anything more than you simply BECAUSE they have more than you is really gonna lead to a miserable life… for all involved
In this game, the fact there exist those who have built (or bought, btw) in-game wealth AND are “richer” than others will ALWAYS be the case. At a bare minimum, because new players keep joining, establishing a new have-not class… under y’all’s redistribution thing, we’d have to stop and revamp the economy every.single.time or we wouldn’t all be equal.
Please accept this fact: No master planning whatsoever will keep the players BOTH 1) completely “equal” in level of wealth and 2) playing the game. The former will result in negation of the latter. If there are no players, this entire conversation is ethereal.
Ohhh capitalist shiny object just popped in my head: I need a couple experienced game coders… given the increasing number of people going down this road in games lately, I think I have a great idea for a new game tailoring to them… thinking Forward!Online is kinda catchy.
For the overall balance of the game……..yeah you got me. I am selfishly only concerned with the overall health of GW2..busted!
You know what? This whole debate on rich people’s networth has us looking in the wrong direction. Right now, there’s no “sales tax” for when buyers purchase goods. So I propose we implement a 15% sales tax on all items purchased, and eliminate the “seller’s tax”.
By taxing only items that are purchased, that would in turn put more economic pressure on “Flippers”, since they buy a lot of stuff. Doing this should satisfy both sides of the debate at hand!
Hmm, I’m thinking it over but I don’t see the value. If you put it on the buyer rather than the seller, it would make it easier on adventurers selling loot, and harder on flippers buying stuff in hopes of reselling it for more, but it would probably have other problems. One I can think of is that the current listing fees act to prevent reckless sell offers, since there’s a cost to you if the item doesn’t sell. Maybe adding a sales tax would be good though, but balanced along with a sellers tax, like keep the listing fees, but transfer the transaction complete fees to the seller rather than the buyer? I don’t know, I’m not an economist so I’m not sure whether that would do more harm than good.
This whole thread was based on the idea that some people want to punish “rich players”. So with this idea, you put more emphasis on Flippers. Maybe do a 10% sales tax on all items purchased, and keep the 5% listing fee for sellers.
Of course there’s two negatives I can think off right away.
1) It puts pressure on the “poor player” who now has to pay more for the same goods
2) Not all “rich players” are Flippers. Farmers who sell Rare/Exotic items they find will get richer faster, since they’re only hit with a 5% tax on listing fees.
Not punish rich players, but moreso bring more balance to the game.
1) I understand and agree with that
2) Even the most successful farmer can’t hold a flame to high end tp players. They are not in the same league.
Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.
You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.
What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?
It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.
I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol
But a progressive tax on what? Net worth?
A progressive tax on transaction price only “hurts” the wealthy, since that’s the whole point about this discussion, if their wealth only came from flippy high priced items instead of flipping a metric ton of low priced items, earning a little off of each.
“Hey, you won the lottery and found a precursor but it’s for a weapon you don’t use. Now you can sell it for a ton of gold but the new progressive tax will take a much larger chunk because you must be a rich flipper.”
It would be on the gold collected via the tp. So lets say in a given week you took out 70g, well then you’d be taxed at the normal rate of 15%. If you took out 140g, then you’d taxed at 20%, etc etc. Ofc this is just an example for the sake of providing an example.
The players that mostly use the tp for day to day transactions wouldn’t see any difference. Those that got lucky with a drop would still be lucky for the drop just not as much gold would come from it. They’d still be profiting from the drop much more than from any normal drop. Those that make massive profit on the tp would be the ones effected. They’d still be the richest, as playing the tp would still be the most profitable method of obtaining gold, but at a reduced rate. They just have to work a bit harder if the wanted what they don’t need.
Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.
You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.
What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?
It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.
I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol
Sinking more gold isn’t necessarily a good thing. Putting in more gold sinks without more faucets just hurts the average player more than the wealthy.
No it would not because the wealthy will adjust their selling price to pass the tax along to the consumer, the average player. As stated multiple times already. The burden of proof is on you to show how your fix is better than an already working system. Which you people have yet to do.
Yes it would because as I stated above there would be less gold and thus reducing trade.
Do you know what a progressive tax is? To follow that up do you know what “at the end” means?
I with ya Aaarrrrghhhh (idk how many a-r-g-h’s). I’m 10 fold where you are atm but still in the exact same position. I have made 2 legendaries, but had to buy both pre’s so I am not counting them. So chances are you can expect the same for the next 5400 hours or more of not getting squat.
The champ coin nerf is offset by the increases in coin via spvp. It really doesn’t do anything to combat inflation via one means then aide it via another. But what do I know? I don’t really see any reason a tail end progressive tax wouldn’t benefit the game as a whole. More coinage would be reduced. It would be taken on the tail end to have the least chance of being passed on. It would slow the widening of wealth disparity. How would it be implemented? Idk , that’s not my job, ppl are paid for these types of things.
-how do you define ‘rich’
-how can the game define rich so that it can be properly coded
-how do you expect to close all the loopholes while also making sure the game is not changed significantly?
Furthermore, what could ANet even do to stop me from having multiple accounts to circumvent such ‘rich’ specifiers?
I would hope that someone with a sense of self would see how pathetic something like that would be. That’s pretty bad.
You can pretty much bank that the most popular sales will only happen after gem prices have been raised. In that manner cash>gems is more appealing than gold to gems, which by that point will be elevated.
Well we have figured out why you have the stance you have. You do not see the reward aspect of getting something yourself. Anywho this has derailed far enough to where its pointless in cont.
Sry Im late in replying (power company decided to do some road work and lost power for while)
Yes, I missed the 5 from one craft admittedly. The point still remains that it was not an effective way to address the unrewarding nature of the reward mention(btw I was not the one that brought those up specifically).
Because Anet doesn’t make you jump through hoops to get the materials, they flood you with them. Unless of course you only play one aspect of the game in which case you only get the one resources that is rewarded from it. And you said “So can you see how that whole deal defeats trying to make a reward rewarding?” even though you also said earlier that increasing the drop rate of items would be better.
Evidently you missed part of the convo (why I asked 1st).
The added recipes in an attempt to make the flood of mats (which weren’t very rewarding more rewarding). The recipes for the most part require more costs then they produce….ie they result in loses (not rewarding). For those that do offer an increased reward one is subject to multiple markets……recipe market, toxic spore market, and dust market and craft when markets permit. (if they even do)
On the item page of Spidy and on the tp these buy 18s 46c and sell 24s 24c . On the crafting page of Spidy it says they costs 89s 20c to craft and sell for 1g 21s 25s.
What’s going on there? The two do not match.
Afaik crafting these to sell would result in a net lost of 64s 96c.
In an effort to make the ascended mats more rewarding They make you jump through hoops and make it subject to multiple markets at the same time. The rewarding aspect of it all is effected by the process and the subjectivity.
I’m not sure I understand what you are trying to say here but the rewarding aspect of these materials are hurt by the fact that people have a bunch of these, without jumping through hoops, and nothing to do with it (for the most part).
You might want to start from the beginning of the convo where this orignated. It can be kinda hard to understand the just of it from midst of it all.
In an effort to make the ascended mats more rewarding They make you jump through hoops and make it subject to multiple markets at the same time. The rewarding aspect of it all is effected by the process and the subjectivity.
After 2660 plies of dust are consumed b/c we need to consider the costs of the recipe (was that limited in availability?). Anywho ofc this is also highly subject to fluctuations as it is a very limited market.
Yeah I’m going to have to conclude that that’s not the best example of how it could be done or how it may play out.
I don’t really mind the reduced coin. What I’d like to see however are increased item drops that are not directly converted to coin. This would reduce coinage further and add a sense of reward which coin simply cannot. Ofc I am assuming this concept falls upon deaf ears and blind eyes as those with the ability to do something about it have proven to not have a grasp on the subject matter.
They have done this with Dragonite, Empyreal Shards and to some extend Bloodstone Dust (dust can be crafted into something sellable).
By the amount of QQ from players that want to exchange their excess ascended mats for coin (by a vendor or on the tp) shows that your proposed way isnt really what people want. Account bound rewards work well with account bound (meta) achievements, imho, but not with farmable content because people will complain about its uselessness, as soon as they get more than they need.
Can you elaborate further please? Which from those are sellable? Are they intertwined with time gates?
I was able to get to scarlets lair but did not have enough to open the door. Question is will it be open to me to open the chest and get rid of what cyphers i do have or is it a lost cause.
So you need power cores to access the lair? If so I am sorry I do not know.
I don’t really mind the reduced coin. What I’d like to see however are increased item drops that are not directly converted to coin. This would reduce coinage further and add a sense of reward which coin simply cannot. Ofc I am assuming this concept falls upon deaf ears and blind eyes as those with the ability to do something about it have proven to not have a grasp on the subject matter.
Maybe if you didn’t insult people so readily you would get better responses from others
I don’t think an increase in drop rates of items would remove more coin from the game. More items might be sold on the TP but the tax on the item would decrease as the value of the item decreases with the increased supply.
Wasn’t expecting a response from anyone so umm yeah.
Items obtained via drops which are then sold on the tp and then consumed do remove coin from the game. The amount of which via taxes and direct coin is a balancing act which requires an assessment that needs to not only consider direct numbers but the weight of how rewarding it may be to increase such.
Thanks a ton Lishtenbird. I really wish they would put things such as that in the update notes where they belong. Communication…….a novel concept! Now if only the blade shard vendors will follow the same pattern?
PS for any of those who didn’t know like myself…….Scarlet’s Lair is open and we can turn in cyphers.
I don’t really mind the reduced coin. What I’d like to see however are increased item drops that are not directly converted to coin. This would reduce coinage further and add a sense of reward which coin simply cannot. Ofc I am assuming this concept falls upon deaf ears and blind eyes as those with the ability to do something about it have proven to not have a grasp on the subject matter.
