Guild Wars 2

Again, the Carrion vs. Dire is purely down to player preference. Both works, and pick one suited to your play style.

Pistol whip had it’s after cast reduced (the pistol whip part starts faster after the initial stun now), plus if they used infiltrator’s strike to root you for 1 second, dodging out of the pistol whip entirely isn’t all that easy (you can get out of part of it though).

If you have retaliation, you’ll see dividends from using it during pistol whip.

While I tend to agree about time gating, everyone knew about ascended armor back when ascended weaponry debuted. As soon as I finished my weapons, I started stockpiling everything I could get my hands on. I have 5/6 pieces of ascended, and only need a couple days to complete the set.

Again, I don’t like gated material either, but…

LoneWolfie,

Look at it this way, Jon Peters himself came here and told us the proposed changes for thieves for this past 10th of December. After a month of posts, most of which were reasonable, Anet STILL went through with the changes they proposed with the smallest of changes based on those posts.

Do you really think Anet is going to make any changes suggested by one person or listen to his/her feedback, in this case Sanduskel?

Let it go. The thief community considers him a troll already (the only people that like his posts and agree with him are non-thieves). Ignore his posts and move along.

The only reason I actually salvaged so many, was I needed 6 for my ascended armor, and at the time, Dire Insignias were going for 7 gold. I was able to get those Jatoro armor pieces for 3.5 gold each, so made a little profit. I had the spare BL kits sitting anyways.

Just one of many reasons I’ll never spend real money in their gem store.

I salvaged 20 of the named Dire armors (e.g. Jatoro), and received 13 insignias. I used a black lion salvage kit.

Dee Jay.2460:

But worst of all you cannot prevent someone from reviving his fallen team-mate. So you’re really just going to be doing 1v1 with a build that takes a long time to kill and gives everyone ample opportunity to escape if they wish.

Use caltrops on their team mate. Unless they’re beefy, they’ll have to kitten or get off the pot, or die/get low on health. Works great on other thieves with Shadow Refuge.

Don’t mind Sanduskel. He’s a rabid fanboi (and resident troll – read some of his posts) that believes Anet can do no wrong. Thieves could be in the worst place imaginable, with no chance of beating another profession, and he would be spouting on about how thieves are in a good spot, and that everyone else must be a bad player.

This venom could’ve been something a little more interesting, like “Passively heals you for X amount for every tic one of your damaging conditions inflicts damage.” A stack of 5 bleeds would heal you for each stack, so it would be X amount of health X5.

The heal amount would be low, like 10 or 20, but as most thief builds have some sort of condition damage attached, it wouldn’t be only useful for one niche build like venom sharing.

Edit: It wouldn’t be all that useful for a power build without tweaking.

Thieves will have to use Signet of Malice to try to recoup some of the lost health fighting a necro with that. That would definitely put a crimp on the way I play. :/

Imagi.4561:

Burnfall.9573:

As the saying goes, “when one violate the rule of balance, so shall their end be violated”

LOL! I spit out my soda when I saw that pic.

Venomous Aura – this is the reason why we cannot have nice things. It’s why venoms, and all the mechanics behind it sucks.

Anet needs to make it so venoms have a base effect that gets shared via venom sharing, and a secondary effect, that is added on for the thief’s personal use, and would not be shared.

For example:

Devourer Venom:

Your next two attacks Immobilize.

Shared effect:
Immobilized: 2 s
Duration: 30 s

Personal Effect:

This venom leaves a lingering toxin in your target’s veins, snaring your target for 2 seconds after immobilize wears off. During that 2 seconds, your target has a chance of being immobilized for 1 second (1 check per second, 20% to immobilize, affected by Potent Poison, for a total of 53% if that trait is selected)

(This is likely overpowered, but you get my meaning – by weaving Potent poisons into possible things that can affect personal venoms, it encourages going deeper into venom traits)

Until that happens, venoms will be sitting next to traps as the red-headed step child of thief abilities.

The only thing I can think of, is that there is going to be a re-tooling of some of the venom-affecting traits, such as shuffling up and down tiers, fixing/readjusting or something else.

This heal is hands down, the worst healing ability being introduced, unless something being added/fixed, as mentioned above makes it shine (which I doubt – Anet has trouble balancing anything other than their checkbook).

Just gazing at some of the other profession’s heals, they look to be useful in a group or solo situation, while the thief’s appears to only be on the level of bad when shared with others, and abysmally kittened when solo.

It’s too bad Improvisation is such a kitten trait. If it worked so that it refreshed the CD of the type of skill (venoms/signets/traps etc.) that was in the majority, the ability to refresh your heal on steal would make this heal a bit better.

Instead of brand new abilities, I’d rather see them go through all the traits and fix/trim all the useless, never-used ones.

Once again, Anet fails to deliver.

I run:

Sigil of Doom – on demand poison every 10 seconds.
Sigil of Bursting – +6% condition damage.

Currently running Runes of the Traveler. An extra utility slot is nice. You could go with Runes of Speed if money is an issue. Scavenger and Perplexity are great options.

Runes of Grenth are surprisingly decent, coupled with a Sigil of Hydromancy, although kind of a niche build.

Edit: I’d prefer a sigil of earth over torment. 2 second CD and a 60% on crit, compared to 30% for torment.

If you have good access to stacks of might, a dire set would hit decently as well. I average ~5-6 stacks at any given time with Dire, and if you opt to run Runes of the Noble, and a Sigil of Battle, 10-12 stacks is easily maintained. In testing, I was able to keep 15 stacks up the majority of the time.

Look at that, another rambling Burnfall post. I’m beginning to wonder if perhaps Sanduskel has a second account.

This sums up thieves on December 10th.

akamon.2769:

Fade.7658:

I have noticed that SoR right now, isn’t quite as polite or kind as it was a just prior to Season 1. That makes me a bit sad. More than once, I’ve seen someone ask a question in /map, and either get no answer, or something snarky.

Fade, come on when i am on. and be on the same map. and i’ll always answer you. : ))) snarkless.

I’m all good but thanks :P

I was referring to someone that had just transferred to SoR, stated as much, and politely asked what the Frostgorge champ rotation was here, and it took close to 5-8 minutes for someone to answer. I was going to whisper him the answer when someone finally answered him.

I guess I’m merely homesick for the Guinevere server back in DAoC. Even your enemies were friendly enough on the forums, but I think that’s the main thing Anet missed the boat on: Community, and providing ample support for it. At the very least, the official forums should have individual server boards. I think server migration would diminish somewhat if there were established communities with Anet support in place.

SoR is slowly migrating to tier 2. This will be exacerbated by people transferring to either BG or JQ to remain in tier 1. The core of SoR’s community will remain, but I think the server will hover at T2 for a bit, and slowly settle down one more tier, and stay there.

Just speculation though.

I have noticed that SoR right now, isn’t quite as polite or kind as it was a just prior to Season 1. That makes me a bit sad. More than once, I’ve seen someone ask a question in /map, and either get no answer, or something snarky.

It works well in a group setting for those fleeing. Couple it with Devourer Venom for a 6-8 second immobilize, and watch em’ squirm.

The skill works pretty well with Uncatchable, or making it easier to land a CnD.

Stack some condition duration. My immobilize lasts 1.75 seconds.

I’m on SoR, and it seems a bit different to me than a month or two ago. Granted, I do not play during the NA time slot (mostly SEA/OCX/EU, depending on what time is allowed to me), but at least the WvW portion of the community seems like it is slowly going toxic.

It’s likely in part the stress of the season, and the loss of several guilds, but I’ve seen some nastiness in map chat, and even a small amount in TS. I’ve had a couple run-ins with some less than savory individuals over stupid things, but that’s likely just as common on any server.

I’ve considered transferring, but once you go T1, nothing else really compares. I started on FA from day 1, stayed there a month, and came here. That pretty much leaves BG and JQ, and I’m not going to bandwagon to a winning server if I ever transfer.

I’m hoping things get better, and will wait and see for now.

frans.8092:

In P/D damage is coming from bleeding, the poison supports by reducing healing effectivity. You can easily get +75% bleed duration without food – and with food you’ll easily get the max 100%. Is the 12.5% loss in bleeding damage (from 200% to 175% duration) compensated for by the extra utility offered by longer conditions in general.

In my mind’s eye, it is. The longer my cover conditions last, the better. With as much condition removal that is present, I rarely see my bleeds last their full duration. I was running 50% condition duration for quite a while, and saw little difference over 75%, bleed damage.

edit: Poison damage is essentially worth 2 stacks of bleeds, in addition to the healing reduction. The longer it lasts, the better. Torment would only last 5 seconds with the focus on bleed damage, instead of 8 with condi. duration.

You can still get your bleed duration in the condition duration stat. I have +75% to all conditions via Food (40%), Runes (10%), Trait line (15%) and the new Toxic Crystal (+10%).

Having every condition you can drop last an extra 75% is really nice. Your immobilize lasts 1.75 seconds, for starters. Both your bleeds and poison benefit from the same stat, instead of boosting just one condition with +Bleed duration.

Edit: No idea why half my post is underlined.

I also think that as a P/D user, it might be worthwhile to go at least 10 deep in Deadly Arts for Sundering Strikes post-Dec 10th.

- Deadly Arts VI – Sundering Strikes. Increased the trigger chance from 50%. Remove ICD. Decrease Vulnerability duration to 6s.

With just enough crit, you should be able to get this to proc fairly often (no ICD!), as a cover-up condition. It wouldn’t be worth losing Mug, though, at least imo.

I don’t play anything else, although I have a ranger alt. I’ve played since day one, and have tried just about all the different builds, and I keep coming back to P/D.

It is a forgiving build regardless of carrion or dire, but I find myself against more than one opponent quite often, and I like having that extra little buffer in case I need to bail.

I’m just of the opinion, that if you want more direct damage as a P/D user, Celestial pieces might work better overall. You’d get more than just power and keep some of that toughness.

Travlane.5948:

go go to mists with crap armor and show you if u dont believe me. or just go check yourself. i mgith go in a min and try the difference between dire and carrion on incoming dmg. i wont use auto attacks and i wont use backstabs to gauge…. i use something with roughly 1 for a coeficcient when ill try.

I’m not arguing that Carrion is worse than Dire, or vice versa. I think both have their place, and everyone has different play styles. I prefer Dire, as it offers something of a buffer for mistakes, and against CC-heavy professions (hammer warrior anyone?), can give you that extra defense to survive if your stun break is down.

I do think that Carrion can suffer from lowered damage vs. high armor targets, and that’s where Dire’s extra toughness helps. Granted, a Dire setup will suffer direct damage loss at the same % a Carrion build would against a high armor target, but then again, as a P/D user, I deliver more damage via conditions anyways.

Carrion or Dire should be looked at as how it augments your combat style (defensive or offensive) and the external conditions, like enemy numbers, melee or ranged and many other factors.

Does a Carrion build inflict more damage in the same amount of time? Of course. It could also be argued that a Dire build may give you a little more fighting time before death, thus closing the damage gap between the two.

Edit: I seem to recall reading somewhere that power scales better than toughness.

I did a small amount of testing, adding power in increments, on my thief in full Dire, with traits all reset. Numbers are on average, unless noted otherwise. Crits were not recorded.

Auto Attack:

Base: 144-155
+250 power (sharpening stone): 167-180
+550 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts):238-252
+704 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts, 2 weapons with power):245-268

— Gain of ~80 damage for 700 power

Cloak and dagger:

Base: 582-868
+250 power (sharpening stone): 668-1063
+550 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts): 903-1403
+704 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts, 2 weapons with power): 978- 1500

— Gain of ~300-550 damage for 700 power.

Sneak Attack:

Base: 87-89 per shot, 435 total
+250 power (sharpening stone): 99-102, 495 total
+550 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts): 143-145, 725 total
+704 power (sharp stone + 30 points in deadly arts, 2 weapons with power): 151-162, 810 total

— Gain of ~80 damage per sneak attack shot, 400ish more for total damage.

Bear in mind this is a very small sample of numbers, and there is sure to be a lot more variety, especially with the infinite number of gear combinations. What I noticed is that you really need to add at least 600 or so power for it to be worth the loss of toughness. At that point it seems to taper off a little.

I didn’t go farther with more power, as I’m saving the cash and materials I have for Ascended Armor. In some cases, damage was an increase of close to 100% (sneak attack). I didn’t fine tune things, like the impact vulnerability might have after a cloak and dagger on sneak attack. It’s meant to be a very fast and loose look.

I’d have to say that adding 700 power will probably net you around an 80% increase in direct damage overall. (not counting criticals)

As for toughness, that 718 extra toughness is around a 24% reduction in incoming damage. A 10K backstab would be 7500, and auto attacks from a power user could conceivably save you 200-250 health per swing. It’s not easy doing calculations of that sort, with so many variables.

It boils down to what you value more.

[/quote]tell me how much 718 is. i just added up full carrion on me. thats what i have. dire has 0 power. but lets now look at dire. full dire which gives toughness instead of power…. so 718 toughness

very little difference….. not worth losing double your direct dmg from CND and SNEAK ATTACK and AUTO ATTACK[/quote]

Using GWbuildcraft.com, plugging in 718 toughness is a 24.68% increase in damage reduction. I hate doing the math on things, so I’ve been using that site for various theorycrafting.

Base thief, no anything:

Damage & Survivability
Effective Power 934.32
Effective Health (EHP)11652
Damage Reduction 7.27%
Reference Armor 1836

Thief with an extra 718 toughness:

Damage & Survivability
Effective Power 934.32
Effective Health (EHP) 15878
Damage Reduction 31.95%
Reference Armor 1836

Thief with 718 power instead:

Damage & Survivability
Effective Power 1666.68
Effective Health (EHP) 11652
Damage Reduction 7.27%
Reference Armor 1836

Edit: I wvw only. I don’t really go with the zerg unless it’s karma train friday. I tend to roam mostly, and scout if need be. I don’t do pvp at all. The extra toughness really helps when you’re get jumped by a 2 on 1 or more, and that’s very common in T1 WvW.

2nd edit: Also bear in mind there isn’t any ascended Carrion trinkets. I’d expect you’d want carrion trinkets for more power.

Travlane.5948:

Fade.7658:

The Dire vs. Carrion argument really boils down to your playstyle and number of opponents. I’ve found Carrion is a little better in a 1 on 1, and Dire works better against 2 or more opponents.

Edit: I run 3044 Armor, which equates to 39.68% reduction in damage. That results in a bit more than 30 per hit, especially if it’s a special attack like backstab.

ummm how much dmg reduction is the difference of power from dire to carrion. im guessing about 30 per hit. guessing. could be far off i dont know. havent played with the formula since like march.

tell me how much 718 is. i just added up full carrion on me. thats what i have. dire has 0 power. but lets now look at dire. full dire which gives toughness instead of power…. so 718 toughness

very little difference….. not worth losing double your direct dmg from CND and SNEAK ATTACK and AUTO ATTACK

I think it also depends what tier you’re in for WvW, which I’m assuming is the test bed for this conversation. I’m on tier 1, and it’s a zerg fest everywhere you go. You rarely get just 1 opponent and that’s where the extra defense helps imo.

Don’t get me wrong, I used Carrion for the longest time, and it does have it’s uses. If I merely swapped my Dire armor out for Carrion, it would net me 224 power. I’d have to make more changes to really make a difference in direct damage. That wouldn’t net me twice the direct damage I have now. I could make changes to get power to the point where I’m near 3K attack, but then you start losing condition damage.

There’s a new Sigil coming out that boosts toughness on every kill, like the corruption sigil, so you can likely have your cake and eat it too using that (swap Dire for Carrion, and use that to offset the toughness loss).

The Dire vs. Carrion argument really boils down to your playstyle and number of opponents. I’ve found Carrion is a little better in a 1 on 1, and Dire works better against 2 or more opponents.

Edit: I run 3044 Armor, which equates to 39.68% reduction in damage. That results in a bit more than 30 per hit, especially if it’s a special attack like backstab.

irishking.8956:

Fade.7658:

Here’s another suggestion, something that I tried and liked. Run a full set of Runes of Scavenging:

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 5% chance when hit to cause your next attack to steal health. (Cooldown: 15s)
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): After using your healing skill, your next attack skill steals health.
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): 7% of vitality becomes condition damage.

Run sigils of Leeching with this set, and you have some decent healing, some of which would be on tap with a weapon swap, or a heal. The sigil does 975 healing and the same in damage to your target.

The 5% chance seemed higher than 5% and I noticed it triggering a decent amount.

I was using that rune set prior to swapping over to Traveler runes. I liked it a lot. It wasn’t flashy like Perplexity runes, but it was handy.

so does it just instantly stealth u when u steal it or is it in ur steal skill waiting for u to use it, because if it just happens then i would hate this signet. I like to manage my reveal properly after attack and random stealth could mess it up and get me killed lol

These runes don’t interact with stealth in any form, if that’s what you’re asking. I’m not quite sure what you mean with that question. The life stealing portion pops up as a buff, and stays there until you attack, get downed or log/leave the map.

Source:

Rune:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Scavenging

Sigil:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Leeching

Here’s another suggestion, something that I tried and liked. Run a full set of Runes of Scavenging:

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 5% chance when hit to cause your next attack to steal health. (Cooldown: 15s)
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): After using your healing skill, your next attack skill steals health.
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): 7% of vitality becomes condition damage.

Run sigils of Leeching with this set, and you have some decent healing, some of which would be on tap with a weapon swap, or a heal. The sigil does 975 healing and the same in damage to your target.

The 5% chance seemed higher than 5% and I noticed it triggering a decent amount.

I was using that rune set prior to swapping over to Traveler runes. I liked it a lot. It wasn’t flashy like Perplexity runes, but it was handy.

Sigil of Momentum looks interesting from a P/D user standpoint. If it follows the same +10 per kill as the other on-kill sigils, then an additional 250 toughness is always welcome.

Has SoR dropped to Tier 1.5? I’ve been unable to WvW much due to RL lately, but it seems SoR is much reduced in strength.

vincecontix.1264:

Fade.7658:

Traveler’s runes are better than Perplexity runes imo. An extra utility slot makes a difference. Even Runes of Speed are pretty decent if you prefer more defense.

Not for a condi build.

I guess it depends on playstyle. Having that extra utility slot opened up some new strats for me. I also like having a stun break and not having to give up 25% movement to get it.

Traveler’s runes are better than Perplexity runes imo. An extra utility slot makes a difference. Even Runes of Speed are pretty decent if you prefer more defense.

whisperbox.9187:

FinalPatriot.8034:

Any suggestions?

Fade.7658:

You’ll see some improvement if you run P/D + P/D if you don’t weapon swap as you stated. Run Sigils of Doom, and you’ll have an on-demand source of poison that will last most of the weapon swap CD if you have decent condition duration. That could free up the slot you use for poison, unless you count on it for venom sharing.

Thanks for the suggestion.. sound really good actually and ill look into it once i get some gold xD (poor as kitten)

All you really need (to save gold), is on your main weaponset, have whatever sigil you want to remain constant throughout the swap on your pistol.

On your offhand dagger, have the doom sigils. On your off set, all you need is another dagger in the offhand. When you switch, it correctly realizes that you have no mainhand weapon equipped, and keeps the pistol properly equipped for the swap.

(Your cost in gold will be whatever a new dagger will cost and the sigils of doom, which are ~3 silver right now.You can also try out some of the other weaponswap sigils. The sigil of leeching is actually nice too, it’s a life steal that does 975 damage and heals you for the same. Sigil of energy is a 50% endurance heal. Find what works best (I really liked sigil of Hydromancy, but even with decent cond. duration, you only get a 4-5 second chill, so it was situational)

It looks like this:

Pistol
Dagger

<empty slot>
Dagger

Edit: As for uncatchable, when you’re on top of your enemy, drop a bodyshot or two and dodge away right after. Even with a 1-2 second immobilize, they’ll spend a second or two in the caltrops.

You can also learn to anticipate when you drop the dodge ’trops against melee. Warriors are pretty easy to do this with once you know what to look for.

You’ll see some improvement if you run P/D + P/D if you don’t weapon swap as you stated. Run Sigils of Doom, and you’ll have an on-demand source of poison that will last most of the weapon swap CD if you have decent condition duration. That could free up the slot you use for poison, unless you count on it for venom sharing.

I run a 15/0/30/15/10 build, and it works pretty well, along the same vein as yours, minus the venom sharing. I prefer to use Traveler’s Runes, plus Perplexity runes are in for a nerf sometime in the future, so why get used to them :P

I have a +75% condition duration, with ~1900ish cond. damage, with 20Kish health/3044 armor.

There was a post on GW2Guru not long ago intimating that Ascended armors were coming next patch, but it was taken down pretty quickly.

Who knows how true it was, its probably speculation, but it sure looked official.

It would make more sense to stack Vulnerability. An argument could probably be made for weakness as well.

Maybe they’ll take more than 15 minutes to put together a schedule in season 2.

The bottom line is, Anet is going to make changes based on their data and their vision of where they want things to go, profession-wise or anything else in-game.

The only concrete way of trying to make them sit up and notice, is stop buying gems with cash, if that’s something you do. They can ignore pleas and rational posts with hard data all day long, and it costs them nothing. You can bet they will start taking notice when their cash flow slows a bit.

Some of the nerfs are justified, such as the perma-stealth related ones. The others need a second look, and adjusted. Jon Peters throwing thieves a bone (in the form of a few extra seconds) cost him nothing, and still results in an overall nerf, so those stating that Anet does listen, need to look at the bigger picture.

Why do the changes to thieves feel a lot like Obamacare?

It seems Thieves are getting a new utility, in the same vein as a Ranger’s Troll Unguent, but on a super short CD:

Come Dec. 10th, it’s going to be the same song and dance. Any time I see posts from devs touting improvements, my stomach sinks. Mark my words, what you see listed now as changes will make it live in December.

It’s happened every time they tell us, or we get a leak. Mark Jacobs needs to get Camelot rolling asap imo.

Can we get some condition loving as well? Condition builds don’t have any viable signets like some other condition-using professions. Either a damage increasing signet, or something that boosts duration.

There are a lot of complaints regarding uplevels in WvW. Why not implement level specific BGs for WvW combat, like what DAoC had, such as Thidranki?.

People would spend a lot more time there, without worrying about being a free kill, it would train those that have 0 idea of what to do, and it might become a niche source of enjoyment for those that never considered playing WvW.

Daoc got it right with level-specific BGs, like Thidranki.