Guild Wars 2

Hjorje.9453:

Crinn.7864:

Then ya’ll should have no problem with raids.

Raid wipes are going to be from mechanics, if you are failing dps checks you where probably having mechanics issues.

The dps checks are so small that I cannot fathom how you could possibly not meet them without failing mechanics first.

Lets look at the from a different angle. I raid outside of my guild. I have no problems with the raids, with rotations, or with mechanics. I consider myself a pretty decent player. But the player with in my guild have their own set of limitations that make the mechanics hard for them, or they are slow on skill usage which lowers the DPS. Raids require a different kind of coordination then fractals or dungeons do. I can get a group together of just my friends and knock out any dungeon path in 30min or less mostly less. Me and my friends can go into a fractal and knock those out, but when we start adding others to the group the times go up, not because they are bad players, they just have other limitations that slow things down.

Then those players are not the target audience for that content, and that is OK. Just because people that are not the target audience are not able to complete it, is not a reason to change the content to suit them.

And before anyone says that you aren’t asking to change the content, that you want to increase the accessibility, there are two scenarios for that to happen: 1) they create an infantile-like mode, but do not increase dev resources resulting in either poorer quality or increased time between releases, or 2) they increase raid dev resources by bringing in devs from other departments/areas, Raids are now able to get multi-layered content but content in other parts of the game now has reduced quality or increased time between releases. Neither of those situations is conducive to “adding onto”. You could say that there is a third option, hire more resources, and while I don’t see that happening, I’ve been wrong before.

Vayne.8563:

Crinn.7864:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree, completely. When you play with people who don’t even know what a rotation is, you don’t do nearly enough damage.

10 people that don’t do rotation should still do more dps than 1 person on a solo’ing build.

Enrage timers are irrelevant. The enrage itself is trivial and the checks required to not hit enrage are trivial.

Also people that can’t do rotations wouldn’t cut it in fractals or dungeons.

Believe what you want, but it’s not a fact, it’s your belief. It took us many many weeks to do the escort, but we’ve beat it now a couple of times.

I’m not really looking forward to actual raid bosses with my guild.

I’m curious what the causes of failure were. Obviously I don’t expect you to remember, but curious none the less.

In most instances where you are hitting the enrage timer, it’s because of mechanic failures, not lack of dps, and the way to correct that is through practice. I’m not trying to push that it is easy, I’m admitting that it will take work and practice, but rather that it is possible, not in fact impossible.

Vayne.8563:

It’s different with raids, because dungeons never had an enrage timer. That’s what makes the entire situation different.

Could I beat a dungeon with an entire team of people in soldier’s gear? Sure I can. Because it doesn’t matter if I take longer. It’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with it.

I run a super casual guild and we run dungeons for years including Arah. When people were killing lupi in a minute, it took us ten. Didn’t matter. We could spend as much time as we wanted. We weren’t hurting anyone. We were having fun.

The enrage timer changes all that. You have to do more DPS so you have to have enough people with the right builds. It means vetting people in my guild. Telling them they have to play a different way.

You say it’s not different from dungeons, but it is, because it was possible to beat dungeons without changing builds. That’s not always the case for raids.

If enrage timers prevent people from completing bosses at their own pace, how is it that someone has soloed a raid boss (Cairn) and last I saw a Mesmer was getting close to soloing VG.

Yes enrage timers exist, however it doesn’t mean that the fight is a hard fail. Chances are if you are hitting the enrage timer, you are failing mechanics more than anything else.

Even if you do hit enrage, on most fights, so long as you are still able to handle the mechanics, you can still beat and pass the encounter.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

So, if someone doesn’t think training guilds should push new players towards meta builds, why don’t they join a training guild that doesn’t?

Because those are not succesful.
It’s not the guilds that push the players towards those builds. It’s the game itself that does.

If they are not successful, then they need to work on mechanics (depending on fight, some fights do have hard time limits, but those are generally pretty lenient on dps requirements to begin with).

Yes, Raids are easier with an optimal comp, but not impossible, you just may have to practice more. If you failed with a sub-optimal comp, it is more likely that mechanics were failed than anything else.

Blaeys.3102:

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

That is actually false – well for the most part.
If your objective is to learn raids – your build is not that important. The important part is learning the mechanics. If you and every memeber of the group knows the mechanics very good – the build is just secondary. You will run into the enrage timer probably but if you are really good at the mechanics youll find a way to still do it.

Its true that pugs won’t be patient with you if you don’t run meta. But pugging isnt the best way to learn raids. Better join a training guild or raiding guild

In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.

This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.

So, if someone doesn’t think training guilds should push new players towards meta builds, why don’t they join a training guild that doesn’t? If they are unable to find one, why not create one? Those are all solutions the issues you listed, that already exist in the game.

Again, the “problems” you list, already have solutions in game. If that is too much for someone to ask, then yes, it is acceptable for them to be left out (because again, them being left out is entirely on them, not the game).

People really need to stop looking for something to blame and start taking responsibility for their own actions.

Blaeys.3102:

As Ive stated before, there will always be people that wont get this point.

We need to step out of our “sides” and boxed in perspectives and look at this issue from the larger game wide point of view.

And, yes, forced was probably too strong a word, but the idea that raids offer reasonable accessibility for both a zerker fresh air elementalist and a hammer scrapper or monster inspired necromancer simply doesn’t hold water in the actual game. If anyone just getting into raids needs evidence of that, just go and try to pug for a few days or try to form a group of like minded individuals. I strongly encourage them to try – but I think most of us can guess the results in 9/10 cases already.

The game offers the same accessibility for all of those playstyles you mentioned, they are all viable in raids. Pugs don’t offer the same accessibility, and it isn’t up to Anet to control what Pugs want.

Seriously, go put together a group of friends (specifically stay away from PuGs, unless you can find some of a similar mindset), go wail away on VG. So long as no one messes up on mechanics and pressure is covered (hello heals and tank), you can beat it. Will it go past the enrage timer, most likely, but hitting the enrage timer isn’t the end all of the encounter, so long as mechanics are still being dealt with and not missed.

Blaeys.3102:

Once again, you’re coming in with the perspective of someone who has, most likely, mastered the raids already. You put in the math (or more likely, copy/pasted a build from somewhere) – and now that you know the fights backwards and forwards, could do them on pretty much anything.

Or rather, I hopped on my necro, joined a pug, killed VG and Gors, and went from there? You are assuming I put in math and did a copy/paste on build. I didn’t. Yes I know the fights backwards and forwards, which means that I can probably bring any build that I want. It is unreasonable to expect people to not get better at the content and their class, in order to pass it.

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

No one is suggesting that you can go in with no knowledge of the fights and no knowledge of your class, and have it be easy. We are saying that if the effort is put in, it will be easier than they are making it out to be. And no, not everyone is saying that they should go run a meta build. Will a meta build make things easier to learn and pick up, most likely. But if you don’t have fun with that build, you can literally take any other build and succeed, you just have to learn, and that is not unreasonable to ask for or expect.

Blaeys.3102:

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

Raids by themselves were never designed to cater to pugs, they were designed to cater to coordinated groups who wanted a challenge.

You have a lot of arguments for why easy mode should be implemented, and almost every single one of them already has an in-game solution and counter-argument. The one thing that the game does not have a solution for, is poor attitude (the I can’ts of the world), and it shouldn’t.

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

This is a fair point.

That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.

I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.

But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has a affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.

Who says you need to enjoy calculator style play and min max to enjoy raids in this game?

Raids are easy enough in this game that they can already easily be enjoyed by most groups. Those that want to min-max to the teeth, down to the person that wants to play his tank Dragonhunter and protect his allies from harm. Both groups still have to understand the mechanics of the fight to pass, both have an equal chance of success. One group will probably clear the content faster than the other, but at the end of the day, does it matter how fast content is completed, if you are having fun?

Blaeys.3102:

Yes the raid can be beaten in blues and greens by most classes when played by people who have mastered the fight, but that is the exception, not the rule (and I think the people saying that know that very well). Tiered difficulties give players the ability to play as the hero they want to be rather than the one Anet forces them to be.

No one is forced to play their character any other way than the way that they want to, but they are expected to put in the time and effort to learn the raid and to master it.

You keep going back to people are forced into a meta. NO, they are not forced, if they are feeling forced, then they are with the wrong group of people.

You can learn a raid in whatever build you want, so long as it fills the role that it is being brought for, you do not have to wait until you have mastered the raid to run what you want.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

I never said I was unable to prove my statement.

Again, you only asked me if I cared to. Me not caring to, does not equal inability.

In that case – why anybody should take your empty assumptions as something more than opinion?

Why would you take something that was never proposed as something more than opinion, as more than opinion?

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

You didn’t ask if it was my opinion. You asked if I cared to. No, I didn’t care to, and still don’t.

You made a statement, and unable to prove that this statement is something more than your personal opinion. So, it is your personal opinion. Simple.

I never said I was unable to prove my statement.

Again, you only asked me if I cared to. Me not caring to, does not equal inability.

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Nope.

So, it’s just your personal opinion. Okay.

You didn’t ask if it was my opinion. You asked if I cared to. No, I didn’t care to, and still don’t.

Djinn.9245:

Fatalyz.7168:

3) Yes I am like this is real life, no I intentionally avoid professional careers because I don’t like people, and yet even I was able to find a group of 9 other people I can be 2 times a week for a couple of hours each time.

9 other people who also want to raid…

fixed

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Nope.

Chun.5827:

Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.

I take it this means that you have solo’d Cairn?

Chun.5827:

I love the fallacy that non-raiders are lazy players who don’t want to improve or work for their rewards continues to persist. Take a look at my comments on page 16, I’ve outlined valid numerous reasons why this statement isn’t true and the real reason is the unnecessary “social challenge” barrier.

That barrier is all on them, they can make friends or join a guild. The difference between can and can’t is the mind set.

Chun.5827:

“Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?”

Nope, that’s not what Blaeys.3102 is saying. He wants challenging content which has low barriers of entry that pretty much anyone can get into, the only thing to should define success or failure is dedication. The irony with Raids, is that the “social challenge” element (and barrier of entry) actually hurts how “challenging” they can actually make Raids. Look at my comments on page 16 for more details.

Raids already have a low barrier of entry, willingness. If that is too much to ask, then leave those behind.

Chun.5827:

As Blaeys.3102 has said

“The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:

Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss"

If you want difficulty, run a non-meta comp. Meta comps increase the ease at which the encounter can be completed, those that want a challenge will find a way to beat the content outside that meta.

Chun.5827:

Now look at gold standard Action RPG games (Nioh, Dark Souls, Bloodborne), take a look at videos of boss fights from those games compared to GW2. The difference in quality of challenging content is staggering. Gold standard ARPG’s have excellent designed bosses, no barriers of entry (can try whenever you want, and not get leashed down by other people), personal skill is the determining factor not trying to get the highest dps numbers (ironically to speed up the fight and avoid boss mechanics).

How does GW2 try to make “challenging content”? By gating the learning experience behind group drama and dealing with unprofessional internet strangers, and when you get past the painful “training” phase. You find out the “challenge” of the content is to memorize formula, then mindlessly farm it. Try turning off your brain in games like Nioh and Dark Souls, doesn’t work.

Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.

If you want games that cater towards hard-core raiding experiences, there are plenty of those out there on the market. Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Edit: To further add, Raids in this game are a niche offering that caters to a select crowd, people feel left out, and to that I say “Oh well, there are numerous ways that they can take part, and that if they feel left out, it’s all in their own head”.

Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?

Your argument that people shouldn’t have to conform to a specific build is easily proven otherwise. The only thing left to figure out, how much work are those people willing to put in to clearing the content, and a vast majority do not want to put in much effort at all. Given that Raids sole development purpose is as Challenging Group Content, it does that, and offering watered down versions does not. In their current iteration, as Challenging Group Content, Anet has set a clear barometer for what they want Raids to be.

Or perhaps people are arguing to have Anet make Raids their main form of end game PvE content, instead of Open World. However, it’s been made clear that Anet wants Open World to be their main form of delivering end game content and story. Or maybe people are asking to have both as the main form of pve end game content and story, which honestly doesn’t seem feasible given their current structure and release cadence.

Or you know those people could form a group, with other people that don’t care what build is being run, and take on that challenge.

I run my necromancer, power or condi, but I adapt to the situation and I can play the class well enough that I am consistently towards the top of my group in dps (the role I am there to fulfill). So yes, they can group up, and go work on killing that boss. They may fail for hours at a time, but they can improve and eventually kill that boss (with 2 maybe 3 exceptions, out of 13 potential bosses). The point is, that they can run what ever they want, and if they improve enough, they can beat it.

Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.

Also, anyone that joins a “Team” based event, and doesn’t wish to adapt to the needs of the team, isn’t a team player.

TL:DR: the only thing preventing those players from enjoying the content, is themselves.

Reset is at 00:00 UTC, so you still have approx. 7 hours from now.

Blaeys.3102:

On May 28, it will have been four years since the last new guild missions were added to the game, despite the new system added with HOT designed to make them “easier to implement” and the following from the (at the time) game’s director -

https://youtu.be/W1WBYEfJVb4?t=336

I think the big problem is there is no one at the helm with the time to properly lead game direction – across the board. Afaik, they still havent replaced Colin – and the game is probably suffering from that lack of dedicated leadership.

Things they (and many players) once considered very important are slipping through the cracks or have just been completely forgotten.

I think it far more likely that they have a new direction, rather than that they have no direction at all. People may not like the new direction, but I’m fairly certain that that was accounted for and accepted.

Mike O stepped in to replace Colin for the foreseeable future. While he did state that he would have to hire someone eventually, he did also state that he would be laying down the path that “he” believed in. I think it safe to say that once Mike has the game going in the direction he thinks it should, he would hire someone to continue it in that direction.

Here is the announcement from Mike on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/

Professor Sprout.1560:

Talking of which, @Mr Arnold could I perhaps tempt you into dropping some kind of intriguing yet frustratingly cryptic hint re the new fractal? ::D

It’s going to have flaming whips and chains that you have to jump dodge to get through, or die with no res option.

:D

Unless I am mistaken, I remember reading some what recently, on Reddit, a dev stating that they will not be providing further development on guild missions at this time.

While it would be nice to see more guild missions, they seem to have their plate full and balanced in a way to consistently release new content. Unfortunately the current model doesn’t seem to have room for guild growth.

SkyShroud.2865:

Last time, anet mentioned they have two different teams working on living story, now I believe is only one. I also haven’t heard from the guild development team since their last post on guild hall statistic, maybe disbanded?

They have 3 teams working on Living Story. So far the first team has released episode 1 and 4, team 2 did Ember Bay and the upcoming episode, team 3 did Bitterfrost and episode 6 (if we get that far, which I believe we will).

If I remember correctly, they don’t have anyone working on guild specific enhancements, but I could be wrong.

castlemanic.3198:

Fatalyz.7168:

castlemanic.3198:

Fatalyz.7168:

So does that mean, if you spent 4 hours creating and building something, and I spent 4 minutes creating something, that my project received more development time?

Yes, actually. Because you’d still have to do the building of that thing later on, which would count as more development time.

Should have said “and building”. Edited original post to reflect.

So that THEN makes your point void, because if the other teams aren’t releasing content, then more time is being spent on raids.

If we both spend 4 hours creating and building two different things, those two things have equal development time. Now, lets assume we’re part of a three person team, with a third teammate called Bob. If Bob doesn’t create or build anything, then the both of our projects have more development time than Bob’s by default.

Unless there’s a sudden surge in content other than raids, you have no ground to stand on.

Unless the content that my team is creating is easier to produce than your teams.

I’m also assuming that all members of the team are working equally, and that my team was able to finish it’s project in (let’s expand the time frame a bit) 4 days, where it takes your team 4 weeks to finish its project. I think it would be pretty safe to say that your project received more development time, even if your team “produced” less.

I use “produced” in quotes because we have no information of the amount of effort it took to produce what your team did. My project could have require very little effort to “produce” a lot, while yours could have required a major amount of effort to “produce” a little.

Just because my team was able to “produce more” in less time, doesn’t mean more time was spent.

Edit: I saw your edit after my post. I believe we are on the same page now. Maybe I should have tried that angle, but I’ll remember for next time.

castlemanic.3198:

Fatalyz.7168:

So does that mean, if you spent 4 hours creating and building something, and I spent 4 minutes creating something, that my project received more development time?

Yes, actually. Because you’d still have to do the building of that thing later on, which would count as more development time.

Should have said “and building”. Edited original post to reflect.

castlemanic.3198:

That….. means that raids are receiving more development time. If other teams are not providing as much content, that means that raids are seeing more development time. Literally, that’s what it means.

So does that mean, if you spent 4 hours creating and building something, and I spent 4 minutes creating and building something, that my project received more development time?

castlemanic.3198:

OniGiri.9461:

Rednik.3809:

Crinn.7864:

Raids aren’t receiving more development time than anything.

Then how we got 0 dungeons, 2 fractals and 4 raid wings?

You don’t understand why other rpgs use “modes.” The entire concept of variable difficulty encounters was created for vertical progression mmos in order to keep a raid relevant after it’s original difficulty got power creeped out of relevance. Since GW2 does not use vertical progression there is no need for variable difficulty encounters.

Emm, what? Difficulty modes serves for widening raid audience and keeping mid and high-end raiding community saturated with fresh blood. Otherwise old model with different difficulty of encounters during a single raid would be enough.

Bringing up dungeons is just a joke since they stated that their won’t ever be any new dungeons.

You do realize that one fractal has about 5 different levels. You have to adjust 5 different difficulty settings, instability composition, mobs, bosses, agony calculation, etc.
A raid wing has 3 to 4 encounters. Most of them are just huge monsters who stand in the middle of an arena and wait for you to hit them.

Id say its pretty clear why its easier to spit out new raids then fractals.

Then Rednik’s point stands. Raids ARE receiving more development time. Objectively so.

Actually all his point proves, is that the other teams were not providing as much content in comparison, not that raids are receiving more development time.

castlemanic.3198:

It’s at best hilarious to say that if they make difficulty modes for raids, they can’t focus on other content because THEY HAVE THE TECH AVAILABLE ALREADY. just implement it into a raid and bam, you have difficulty modes. It’s not like they have to do something TOTALLY new like they did when they introduced fractals, they already have tech available to do it. Just work with the available tech, import it into raids with fewer levels, adjust numbers accordingly and bam.

You don’t have any idea what it is like to develop for their engine or how much effort it would take. You can guess all you want, you still don’t know. So you are in no position to suggest that it would not be a stretch.

castlemanic.3198:

Also it’s NOT that huge a leap of development effort if they design a raid from the get go to have difficulty levels. It’s not worth the effort of adding difficulty levels to already present group content as I have already mentioned, but for future raids, design them from the beginning with difficulty options hat already exist in the game, and you won’t need to cut back on other content.

You are right, that if designed from the start, it would be easier to implement (we still don’t know how much easier, only that it would be easier) levels. However, they were never designed or intended to offer difficulty levels, and I agree with that design decision. If you only have one experience that you have to design for, it’s that much easier to make sure it is the best experience you can create. And before you can say it, even with a tiered difficulty setting, it is still easier to design a really great experience, when you only have to design it once.

This is where you have a mistaken identity about this game. It’s still a very casual friendly game. Casual does not mean “bad player” kitten many on this forums are wont to infer. This game was not meant to cater to players who either can’t or won’t play better, it was always supposed to provide a challenge, they are just starting to deliver on that promise.

So yes, those that bought into the game because it was perceived as easy (read casual, still don’t know why people equate easy with casual) will see that it’s identity is changing. Those of us that read into the product we were purchasing, we are just now being delivered the content in the game that was always supposed to be there, the challenge.

You can argue that they want to appeal to as many players as they can, and I can argue that they are, just not with raids which was clearly advertised as Challenging Group Content. So far they have delivered on that. Only time will tell, but I’m pretty sure that this was a well thought and intentional shift in design to meet the original goal of the game. Yes that even means that it was known beforehand that a subset of the players would be disenfranchised by that, quite possibly enough to want to quit playing, and they willing pulled the trigger on it anyway.

Also, there is a noted reason why ‘casual’ can equal ‘bad’ for some people. Because casual players don’t spend as much time in the game as hardcore players, they don’t have as much time spent in the game and thus are seen as not as experienced. While objectively true, it doesn’t take into account a players actual abilities, such as the ability to easily understand the systems of a game, and thus NEED less time than others to become hardcore level ‘good’ at the game. It also doesn’t take into account WHAT that player does with their time in the game. A casual player could very well use a level 80 booster to instantly be geared and leveled for raid content and immediately spend all their time in raids, doing no other content except spend the time getting to the raid portals.

Having easy modes can give casual players the ability to more easily play and get through content with what limited time they have, because they don’t need to die an infinite amount of times to understand and beat a boss. It also, conveniently, helps players who have disabilities or some other reason that they aren’t ‘as good’ as other players. Giving those players a bone by having a difficulty option that presents atleast the ability for them to try raids and still have a chance of completing it is a good thing, because disabled players, or players not as naturally attuned to gameplay like GW2 has, also deserve love in the form of content they can participate in.[/quote]

Yes, having easier content can be helpful for those people who have issues. But it is OK to provide an experience that does exclude them. That may very well be where we differ, I think that exclusivity is OK, and apparently there are those that don’t. In which case, we will just have to play the waiting game, as I firmly believe that providing niche content is healthy.

castlemanic.3198:

maddoctor.2738:

That would require 1000 difficulty versions. I can think many downsides of that

You can find lots of info and discussion on the subject of Raid difficulty by reading the appropriate threads. Last I checked this isn’t about that. Now this is getting completely off topic, or rather there are more threads on the topic of Raid difficulty that have a proper discussion, repeating the same arguments here won’t help anyone.

In a perfect world, 1000 difficulty versions would be amazing. However, I’m realistically only asking for an ‘easy’ mode.

Last time I checked, I also mentioned dungeons, explorable dungeons and fractals as problematic. Also it IS appropriate to the thread, since raids are now a part of GW2’s identity. People rightly have the ability to comment on a thread about the identity of this game and what additions have changed the games identity. Raids fall into that category.

Silent The Gray.3091:

Let’s cater to the casuals again, just as the game always does, THAT is what is making this game lose it’s identity. Candy Crush looks hard core in comparison to Guild Wars 2.

This game was designed, marketed and sold as being casual friendly, until HoT came out. Asking for difficulty modes is not making GW2 ‘easier than Candy Crush’ (seriously, THAT’S your argument?). Instead, it allows casual players to have access to content, while giving hardcore the challenge they need.

There’s nothing wrong with building hardcore content. The problem is building exclusive hardcore content and forcing challenge on casual players playing a game that was marketed as casual friendly.

What is your definition of casual?

Silent The Gray.3091:

maddoctor.2738:

castlemanic.3198:

There’s no downside to providing players the ability to experience all content at a difficulty that they can enjoy.

That would require 1000 difficulty versions. I can think many downsides of that

You can find lots of info and discussion on the subject of Raid difficulty by reading the appropriate threads. Last I checked this isn’t about that. Now this is getting completely off topic, or rather there are more threads on the topic of Raid difficulty that have a proper discussion, repeating the same arguments here won’t help anyone.

Let’s cater to the casuals again, just as the game always does, THAT is what is making this game lose it’s identity. Candy Crush looks hard core in comparison to Guild Wars 2.

What is your definition of casual?

castlemanic.3198:

Fatalyz.7168:

Unless you are making content that you don’t want everyone or even the vast majority of the population, to be able to complete. That ALONE is reason enough to not make use of difficulty modes.

While true, why would an MMO of all games have content that most players can’t complete if their goal is to retain a player base?

How do you retain a player base? Give them more content that they can play.

If there is content that players KNOW they won’t be able to complete, they won’t even try that content. That reduces the number of playstyles available to players, those playstyles then fall into disuse for the vast majority of players, and developers develop content that the vast majority of players won’t be able to complete.

Why? If your game follows a niche like dark souls, then it’s the entire point of the game. It’s the reason why the game was built, it was designed, marketed and sold as a niche game, but GW2 of all mmos was designed from the ground up as a casual friendly experience. You know what’s casual friendly? Difficulty modes.

Yeah, times change and developers opinion on what the game should be change too, sure, and that’s the whole point of this thread. This game lost it’s identity from being casual friendly to enforcing high difficulty content onto the playerbase with it’s expansion.

How do you fix that? Difficulty modes. Hardcore players enjoy their challenge while casual players get to experience the same content at a lower difficulty. Having MORE options harms no one. It ONLY can provide a fun experience for more players. Does it take more developer effort? Sure, but again they’re opening the doors to a much larger number of players, who’d be able to play and enjoy the content that developers surely want players to experience while also helping to maintain the playerbase that MMOs need to, well, stay alive.

There’s no downside to providing players the ability to experience all content at a difficulty that they can enjoy.

However, before anyone jumps the gun on what that might look like, let me explain something. I realise that asking developers to restructure anything already released (dungeons, explorable dungeons, fractals and raids) to include easier modes is a lot of developer time that could be spent developing future content. Would I like to see it? Absolutely, no doubt, 100% I feel it needs to happen. Am I expecting developers to actually follow through with restructuring and redesigning all instanced group content they’ve ever released? Hell no. In a perfect world, yes, but this isn’t a perfect world, this is reality. Thus the recommendation is: for all future raids, incorporate an easy difficulty mode from the beginning of the design process so that casual players can experience the content.

How on earth can that be a bad thing to ask?

Exclusive difficult content was always supposed to be a part of this game, they just failed to deliver on that at launch, and for a good while after.

Also, are you willing to give up open-world updates and the other events that they run to get more development on raids, and turn this into a raid-centric game?

castlemanic.3198:

This game lost it’s identity from being casual friendly to enforcing high difficulty content onto the playerbase with it’s expansion.

This is where you have a mistaken identity about this game. It’s still a very casual friendly game. Casual does not mean “bad player” kitten many on this forums are wont to infer. This game was not meant to cater to players who either can’t or won’t play better, it was always supposed to provide a challenge, they are just starting to deliver on that promise.

So yes, those that bought into the game because it was perceived as easy (read casual, still don’t know why people equate easy with casual) will see that it’s identity is changing. Those of us that read into the product we were purchasing, we are just now being delivered the content in the game that was always supposed to be there, the challenge.

You can argue that they want to appeal to as many players as they can, and I can argue that they are, just not with raids which was clearly advertised as Challenging Group Content. So far they have delivered on that. Only time will tell, but I’m pretty sure that this was a well thought and intentional shift in design to meet the original goal of the game. Yes that even means that it was known beforehand that a subset of the players would be disenfranchised by that, quite possibly enough to want to quit playing, and they willing pulled the trigger on it anyway.

castlemanic.3198:

Crinn.7864:

You don’t understand why other rpgs use “modes.” The entire concept of variable difficulty encounters was created for vertical progression mmos in order to keep a raid relevant after it’s original difficulty got power creeped out of relevance. Since GW2 does not use vertical progression there is no need for variable difficulty encounters.

The entire concept of variable difficulty encounters has existed long before the first MMO, so you might want to use a different reason.

Difficulty options allow a greater number of people to enjoy that content, that ALONE is enough reason to make use of difficulty modes.

Unless you are making content that you don’t want everyone or even the vast majority of the population, to be able to complete. That ALONE is reason enough to not make use of difficulty modes.

Vayne.8563:

It’s always bad for the game when you’re “encouraging” people to spend long amounts of time in content they don’t like.

It could also be a reward geared towards people that enjoyed multiple aspects of the game. Just because you can get it by doing something you don’t like, doesn’t mean that it was meant as “encouragement” to do something you don’t like. Could very well be that gated rewards that was always there. The problem was that the gates never worked like they were intended to. IMO, what we are seeing now, is the attempt to get the game back to where they wanted it at launch.

Crinn.7864:

Fatalyz.7168:

Actually Necro can compete as DPS, there is a benchmark out there of a necro doing 32k+ dps with realistic buffs. Granted most people won’t get those numbers, but it most definitely has better than just slightly better than mesmer dps.

The problem is that the benchmark was done with the Necro chill field whirling inside the bosses hitbox. In a actual raid the necro will not have field priority because of all the fields getting dropped on the boss, so all of that dps that comes from the chilling bolts will not be there.

If Anet would change combo fields to prioritize the owner’s fields rather than the oldest field, Condi Necro would be instantly viable.

Most people aren’t going to come close to a classes top benchmark at any rate, regardless of profession.

The point is, that necro can complete for dps. No, it isn’t as easy as Daredevil or Dragonhunter, but that’s not my point either. If you are playing Reaper and are unable to keep up in DPS, it is a player issue more than a class issue.

With that said, I would love to see fields have a priority for the person who cast them, and it would make the class more seamless and easier to perform with.

tongpo.3184:

Raiding: no one wants a necro because the damage is lowest in the game and it has been this way since the launch of the game. DPS might be slightly better than Mesmer, but Mesmer brings a lot of boons to buff every else. Because of that, Mesmers are almost a must in most raid comps. Necro is basically just dps, but really low dps and no useful utility or boons. Sure you can run raids with a guild, but they would probably prefer you reroll a difference class to raid with when you get to the harder stuff.

PvP: WvW, necros own, but only if you spec into using Epidemic because its pretty much broken in that mode. Its been broken for a long time. The assumption is they will nerf it eventually, but people have been saying that for a while and it hasn’t come yet so who knows. In ranked, its possible for necros to be very good, but it requires a team to built around you and you have to be a fully coordinated team. By yourself in solo queue, you might feel like a fish out of water, especially if you are trying to a GS Reaper build. You have no escape options and you will rarely be in range to ever hit anyone.

As for Fractals and normal dungeons, any class is mostly fine as you basically just spam aoe and damage until you clear it. Your damage is still low and you offer no utility like in a raid, but most of it is so easy that no one will care.

Summary: Its a pretty kitten class outside of an Epi WvW build or a fully structured 5v5 team. Not much middle ground for this class. Its either you are broken or just flat garbage depending on what you wanna do. But of course, like with any game and any class, skill trumps most things. But again, when all things are equal, you are kitten by comparison. And lastly of course as well, if you find the class to be fun, no one should stop you from playing what you enjoy.

Actually Necro can compete as DPS, there is a benchmark out there of a necro doing 32k+ dps with realistic buffs. Granted most people won’t get those numbers, but it most definitely has better than just slightly better than mesmer dps.

MarkoNS.3261:

Fatalyz.7168:

MarkoNS.3261:

So hey here is a whacky idea anet devs keep to your original promise of no adds ever and ban every player that is using them

Good thing DPS meters aren’t add-ons, they are overlays, completely different things.

same thing different package, both addones and “overlays” have the same functionality.

Perhaps you should just clarify that you want people who don’t play game the way you think it should be played to be banned then?

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

blackdirk.1324:

No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.

Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.

Which is part of the reason why story mode is needed – to preserve the integrity of the hard mode. In fact, the existence of greater accessibility would most likely give the devs freer rein to make more difficult encounters moving forward.

There are two real solutions to this issue, imo – tiered levels or a gradual compromising/watering down of the content to the point where it doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs.

We are already starting to see the second make its way into the game in some of the wing 4 fights. Is that really the direction anyone wants to see them take raids?

There is a third option. Anet can continue developing raids the way that they have been, and not change anything. Maybe some people don’t feel that is a viable solution. Unfortunately for them, it is, and so far seems to be what Anet is doing.

TexZero.7910:

Fatalyz.7168:

Edit for further clarity: Raids are available to everyone, but to be successful you have to improve and put in effort. Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.

So what this boils down to is people not putting in quality time.

Like that guy you know (everyone knows this guy) who complains he doesn’t have a 6 pack but never goes to the gym/works out and drink nothing but beer ?

Yeah, you know sometimes you just gotta change to get what you want. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I agree.

Sartharina.3542:

Fatalyz.7168:

Sartharina.3542:

Ayrilana.1396:

2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.

Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.

GvG was never a supported game format in this game, so it couldn’t have been end game.

Not in this game, but it was in the original. Guild Wars was originally an attempt at an MMO (That became a CORPG) that was focused on Guild Vs. Guild as its endgame, with the rest of the game and its lore developing around that concept (And drifting from it)

It may have been for the first Guild Wars, no offense to that game, didn’t play it much. It could have been a really fun game mode.

However this thread is about Guild Wars 2’s identity and whether it’s lost it or not, and GvG was never a part of this game’s identity.

MarkoNS.3261:

So hey here is a whacky idea anet devs keep to your original promise of no adds ever and ban every player that is using them

Good thing DPS meters aren’t add-ons, they are overlays, completely different things.

Sartharina.3542:

Ayrilana.1396:

2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.

Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.

GvG was never a supported game format in this game, so it couldn’t have been end game.

TexZero.7910:

Fatalyz.7168:

Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment.

So explain what if anything changed ?

Because i sure as heck am not seeing anyone being isolated from raids if the put in the time to do so. Raids are available to everyone, it’s just a personal problem/belief/motive that keeps people who want to raid from doing so, not a game issue in the slightest.

Perhaps that didn’t come across clearly. Take dungeons for example, you never had to get better at the game (no time investment), and you could eventually clear the content, even if it took you 3 hours as a group on one boss. With some of the newer bosses, not just in raids (looking at you vinetooth prime) you have a strict time limit that does require you to know a halfway decent rotation (in the case of prime, when to CC). Vanilla hardly ever had this, or had it be as punishing.

A good example might be Gorseval or Sab, you have hard timers in those fights, requiring you know your class dps very well or adapt it to the situation (6/10 slots for dps, so most likely dps). Dungeons, you could literally finish just by auto attacking….

Edit for further clarity: Raids are available to everyone, but to be successful you have to improve and put in effort. Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.

Blaeys.3102:

…The comment was more about retaining players who rely on what they perceived as an important tenant of the game….

And my reply was about the fact that perhaps they aren’t concerned about retaining those players. And more to the point, when do those players realize that Anet wasn’t concerned about retaining them (whether it makes smart business sense or not), if they continue with the path that they have started with Raids and other harder niche content? I mean obviously if they keep pushing raids and never making an easier story mode, then at some point those players either have to learn to live with it or find something different to do with their time.

Neither of us can know if Anet is concerned with retaining that playerbase. You can argue that it makes good business sense to try to retain those players because after all it is cheaper than new customers. I can argue that they were never the intended audience, and Anet wants to bring in their intended audience. If Anet wants to bring in a specific audience, then you better bet that they already guessed that they would be losing players (an acceptable loss) and that they would be prepared to lose those players. At the end of the day, the best we can do is make educated guesses, and try to guess what Anet intends.

Blaeys.3102:

With the implementation of this kind of raiding, Anet – whether they believe it or not – are shifting their brand away from some core tenants that brought people into the game. That will be off putting to many.

I think that to think that Anet didn’t consider that they would be making this shift, to be a bit naive. I’m not a betting person, but even I would be willing to bet that this was an intentional shift.

Blaeys.3102:

….many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in….

While this would be unfortunate, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for Guild Wars 2 and Arenanet. There are sometimes things called acceptable losses. If they don’t address it, as you and other say they need to (even though they don’t think that they need to), then that would mean that if you left because of this, that you were that acceptable loss. I know no one wants to consider that a company that they have supported might consider losing them an acceptable loss, but it happens all the time.

The biggest thing that will have to happen, for those that think that a story or easy mode raids is needed, is decide at which point this game isn’t going to be what you want/think it should be, and whether to keep playing or not.

Baseleader.4128:

Almost every game ever, locks parts of its game behind a certain barrier of difficulty or accomplishment. In other games you may need to adapt your playstyle or character to be able to continue the game. I don’t understand why this is acceptable in other games, yet in GW2 everything needs to be accessible to everyone?
– SNIP -

Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment. More skilled players would complete the content much faster than less skilled players, but less skilled players would still be able to complete the content. With HoT there was a clear shift in the way that the game was developed.

GW2 developed the stigma of “casual” game, where casual some how meant easy. This game was never intended to be easy (even though it was for a long time), and they appear to be in the steps to correct that. Encounters in this game were always supposed to challenge your build, and have you adapt your build to the environment, not take one build and use it everywhere.

I don’t think any of the PvE in this game should be developed to the level where it doesn’t matter what your build is (unless you are skilled enough to compensate for the shortcomings in your build). I like that starting with HoT general PvE started requiring some thought into your build to handle or make the encounter easier. And yes, that means that people that are unwilling to change or tweak their builds to the encounter will either 1) not participate or 2) find people who can carry them.

Bhima.9518:

… there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system….

Actually, there is. They did not intend for Raids to be available or cater to everyone. Raids have a clear design goal, and that is to be the most challenging content in the game, and anything that makes it easier goes against that design goal.

It could be argued that that goal should be changed or altered, but that is a different argument altogether.

killermanjaro.5670:

Fatalyz.7168:

killermanjaro.5670:

Hi all,

I’ve seen a few guilds that advertise selling raid bosses, and after some unsuccessful LFG (training) runs at VG I’m becoming quite tempted to give in and buy a raid boss just to unlock my mastery track.

So just wondering firstly, is buying a raid boss from a guild / the LFG tool something that is actually allowed? If it’s not permitted then I’ll most likely give it a miss, as I don’t want to do something that risks an account ban.

And secondly (if it is allowed), then does anyone have any experience having done it? As in recommendations for reliable guilds / groups to use? It seems the going rate is 120g-150gish.

I should add at some point I will try to do raids properly, learn the mechanics, sort a build / gear etc, but for now I’m just trying to get the track unlocked as it’s been bothering me. And though I’ve been told doing some of the escorts is easier to unlock the track than VG, using LFG there only ever seems to be “All welcome” or “Training” groups for VG, never the escorts, hence why I’ve only been able to try that.

Thanks in advance

Buying is allowed. If you are just after getting your mastery track unlocked, I would look into doing wing 3 boss 1 (event really ending in first boss, but by far easiest way to unlock mastery track), raid 2 boss 2 is really easy (Mursaat Overseer), and wing 2 boss 2 (Trio) is relatively easy for most pugs. I would give those a try before buying, if all you want is the mastery track unlocked.

Thanks for the info and advice. I’ll look into those to learn the mechanics etc, then see if I can find a group to join. I just haven’t ever seen any groups for the other wings that are open to all / inexperienced raiders, as they normally state only experienced / certain builds / classes / gear etc, which is understandable. But I’ll keep looking, it’s nice to know that buying is allowed though.

From what I understand (I don’t pug raids, I run with my guild however), the best night to attempt to pug is Monday night, which should be reset night. Later in the week, it should be more likely to have more training runs available, or people who aren’t as rigid in their requirements.

I have also read forum posts about people who have gotten into training runs just by asking in /m chat in the Aerodome for training runs or the bosses I mentioned, and getting invites to try them out. You’re mileage may vary.

Good Luck!

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

OniGiri.9461:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

OniGiri.9461:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Feanor.2358:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shaogin.2679:

But nobody is answering my question! Is there really a dps meter available that accurately shows my dps and the dps of my team with my team having to consent to providing me this information in any way?

Yes it’s called BGDM, as others have posted in the thread, the consent is given by you using the Meter and joining a party or squad that uses it as well.

• and keeping its networking enabled. You can disable it and only use it to see your own performance. Personally, I think this is a pretty decent middle ground and I don’t think there’s any reason to complain about it.

but some of us here do think there is a very good reason to complain and not want
add ons in this game at all for this very easy and most simple reasons .

that is this the use of dps meters turns guild wars 2 into world of warcraft . and thus will only let in more add on junk to come to this game of guild wars 2 that will let hackers take over your acount and the game its self . and more

not only that but with the add ons being allowed in this game . it will bring other bad things like mounts and take way from the game even more

and doing all this will only fully drive more people away from this game then it has already done

mounts? pls explain how the usage of an external tool will lead to this?

ummm i already just did that thank you very much . and if you really want that answer
then go and get wow and play it . and see just how long it takes for your acount there to get hacked with the use of add ons . and see how it works for you . and even tho i do play wow . i do not use any add ons at all . never have and never will . and do not wish to see them in this game . as it will only drive more people away from the game than it has done now . like i already have said . oh and a have a nice day

Sorry it seems i am not as smart and experienced as you. Can you explain in simple words how using dps meters will lead to the game getting mounts?

i did not say that and please do not put words in my mouth too that i did not say . ok ???

you ask nicely so its like this they say ok to dps meters . look back lets say 6 months later and ok that went great and very well . lets say now how they like mounts add to the game . even tho there is already kinda of in a round about way a form of mounts in the game . with the flying carpet . so maybe in a way they put they did put the horse before the cart this time maybe lol

So how does adding dps meters lead to 6 months from now adding in mounts?