Guild Wars 2

Link.1049:

Every class does have higher DPS than thief

Not in raids.

Well, if raiding parties kicks you out, it means they’re just really ignorant and probably bad players, you should be relieved by that.

Maugetarr.6823:

TIL I’m a new player incapable of using steal.

Well, in effect not all incapable players are new ones.

Ragnarox.9601:

Cant steal anymore boons from oxygen :P

So I guess if the target doesn’t have swiftness/fury/might thief shouldn’t even get those boons with Thrill, right?

Oh crap, I gave them another nerf idea.

How dare you pretend to be effective with the thief class?

There’re priorities, you know.

Like “fixing” Steal.

BTW, I just thought about another, even if minor, problem about this.

At the moment, thief is the only class in the game that doesn’t have access to swiftness while standing still.

We can get it only via dodging, be it Dash or the minor in Acro, and this is a real problem locking out this class from doing some PvE things in the game, especially jumping puzzles or achievements like the silverwastes’ golden badges one, there’s one point in which swiftness is needed but a dodge can’t be used.

Let’s add this to all the problems this steal nerf added.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

When was the last time you intentionally used steal in combat without a target?

When was the last time you used anything else except 111111111111111111?

Log out stealth is OP.

martin.1653:

This isn’t rocket science.

But they aren’t a rocket building company, so it’s working as intended.

We counter the possibility of having fun playing the game.

Serious Thought.5394:

Wait its still there? I have been getting interrupted mid-whip against that stupid Mesmer stun mantra?

Are you sure? I tried PW on a mob and I got the evade, should test it in pvp then.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

We literally have no access to swiftness now unless we go hug the enemy or are unhindered Daredevil.

Now I get it, it’s a move to convince us to trait again Acrobatics for its expeditious dodger minor!

Such smartness Anet!

Uhm apparently OP deleted his original post, he thought that PW got the actual evade removed.

Those wings are godkitten awful.

+15 asuras riding charrs

Skyline Crash.6254:

Have you ever heard of the MMO called Russian Roulette?

I heard it has a high drop-out rate.

Still fun though.

MadVisions.4529:

I’m thief + war main. i have to play 4 classes ?

Epic.

I just checked in game, the skill still evades, it’s just that they removed the info from the tooltip.

I can’t even…

Technically those 3 reductions should cumulate to a -24.67% due to how dmg modifiers are used in game.

They’re not summed, they’re all sequentally multiplied, so it’s 0.9 × 0.9 × 0.93 = 0.7533, so in your example of 2500 dmg without reduction, you should have received 1883 with all the reductions.

How much did you get instead?

Jana.6831:

HoT was our balance patch

Nice joke!

Apart from swiftness outside combat, the steal with no target was useful to buff ourselves AND allies while ranging an enemy with SB, there’re plenty of situations where this is useful.

But, after 3 years of steal working this way, they went and changed it.

Meanwhile, Withdraw still misses its +10% to healing coeff.

Of course, all these changes are in stealth, it must be their way to show us that they think about thief class lol.

These devs are completely clueless and inept, there’s really nothing else to say about it.

Matt Hax.8927:

there are no advertisements in game =P

But advertisements to an average of 5k viewers make a lot less sense.

How would help in expanding the player base (especially now that people can create f2p starting accounts) giving the option of observing the pvp games from within the game?

New players could just make an account, observe a bit, when they want, how they want, and they would probably understand a lot better by themselves than following those hysterical broadcasts which sometimes are hard to understand even for some old GW2 players with all those random camera changes etc.

Mefiq.7039:

PvE: Dungeons/fractals on dungs ur ok , higher lvl of fractals its better to spec Condi but still ok’ish
Raids: u gonna get kicked alot, kittenty dps kittenty team help, even kittentier survi.

Pls refrain from spouting non-sense about raids and high lvl fractal (post 1 dec patch).

senki.1046:

Please let us spectate Proleague games by ourselves like in GW 1. I hate to watch it when someone else is leading the camera.

So much this.

It was such a pleasure to observe top ranked teams games in GW1 in game. 3 years on and we still don’t have this basic feature, it’s appalling.

Ensign.2189:

Your revenant rotation is terrible if you aren’t hitting 8k – 7k is roughly ‘afk autoattacking in Glint’ level. Glint / Shiro should be up around 9k on the training dummy in the mists.

Hitting 8k with a thief is impressive if you weren’t using Fist Flurry – with it you should be able to get pretty close to revenant levels.

At least that is my experience hitting dummies, YMMV. There’s a reason you should take the numbers from hitting dummies and stick ’em in a spreadsheet – it moves it from contextless anecdote into analyzable data.

Build/rotation of the herald pls? I’d like to check it out myself.

P.S.: I’m not talking about SINGLE, specific hits, I was talking about DPS, using a DPS meter. Were you talking about 9k dps for glint/shiro or something else?

Zero Day.2594:

Nope, didn’t read your post, just the OP’s.

Even so, you didn’t even read it with attention.

If we get OP numbers, and consider the might stacks on both tests, daredevil has always 0 might stacks, while herald gets 10-17 might stacks. Let’s put ourselves in the best case scenario for the herald, and say that during the test he caps at 10 stacks.

With a simple proportion, considering 25 might stacks for both from 0 (thief) and 10 (rev):

Thief – 10.6k DPS
Rev – 9.16k DPS

So +1440 DPS for the daredevil spec just giving to both classes 25 might stacks. That means that the daredevil inflicts +15.72% more dmg per second.

Is even only this not enough?

And if we consider a not-so-perfect rotation by a thief, we get at least 9k DPS, which means +27.1% dps, with a very good rotation (i.e.: quite some experience) that unleashes 9.5k dps, it’s +34.15% dps.

Are you still so sure that’s better to bring another herald instead of a staff daredevil?

Veydar.5017:

Galandil.9641:

You’re missing the point.

It’s not important, for all practical reasons, if ascended armor is not mandatory at least for the VG. It’s important that 99 out of 100 you won’t get into a raiding group if you don’t have full ascended gear and a class that is considered (most of the times, out of sheer ignorance) a meta one.

Fair point. I didn’t know that PUGs had such strict requirements.

The sad part it’s that’s not only true for PUGs, but even if you try to join a guild that does raids.

Just check the official subforum, or try to ask in game: they’ll ask you to have at least two meta (and again, meta as in “I saw these people doing it that way, so it must be the only way possible” – with no real thought put into it) classes with full ascended equipment available, if not, they won’t even bother to let you join the guild raids.

This is actually cutting out a lot of players out of raids, and we all know what happened in the past with raiding games – on WoW only 10% of the population made raids regularly (and the attitude, well…), and Wildstar went down the drain so fast it was appalling.

Top that with the fact that now ascended equipment costs a LOT more than before HoT, the question now becomes “what’s the point?”.

gerry.6519:

I don’t really think this is an issue at anet’s side

It is, due to the fact that the glider is checked server-side instead of client-side.

For a brief time we had the jump checked server-side, and it was one of the worst thing ever in the game, and they rolled it back.

There’s really no point in leaving glider use server-side, it’s just frustrating, especially for players with high pings.

Veydar.5017:

It is worth mentioning (again), that ascended armor is not required for raids. The same goes for the mastery, that allows you to benefit from the adrenaline mushroom* . The difference in DPS, that ascended armor gives you (as opposed to weapons and/or trinkets), is marginal compared to knowing the mechanics and dealing with the logistics of having 10 people not fail horribly.

*I don’t have it and yet I always pull my weight at Vale. Haven’t done the other two though, because of a lack of time.

You’re missing the point.

It’s not important, for all practical reasons, if ascended armor is not mandatory at least for the VG. It’s important that 99 out of 100 you won’t get into a raiding group if you don’t have full ascended gear and a class that is considered (most of the times, out of sheer ignorance) a meta one.

Zero Day.2594:

So, considering how easy the rev rotation is and it pulls close-enough numbers, I would bring a rev over a thief… that and the rev provides party-wide buffs – Can’t really trust many people with more “complex” rotations.

I wonder if you bothered to read everything, 9.5k dps (0 might) vs 7.7k dps (10-17 might stacks) are HARDLY close enough numbers.

warbignime.4610:

And the difference is TP gold benefits the economy while liquid gold doesn’t, TP transaction sink gold and deflates gold to gem exchange rate which is beneficial to players, while liquid gold deflates gold making gold to gem exchange rate higher therefore needless to say is not good foe players. The fact is gold is easier to farm than before if you knows how.

Please never dedicate yourself to economy. You’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Fractals and dungeons had a “meta”, and yet the game isn’t destroyed.

The difference between meta and non-meta was/is clearing speed, aided by the almighty stacking.

dronzer.8392:

Yeah I really don’t get the emphasis on the crafting too, it seems to be the “new idea” they have because it makes it easier for players?

No, because, for the new players or even old ones without all the professions capped at 500, it’ll be a huge cost of money, now more than before.

And for them, as I said, it’s good, more people that probably will open their wallet to buy some gems.

It’s not a fail, it’s EXACTLY what they wanted.

Wahaha.7938:

Alejandro.3285:

Raids will destroy GW2, because raid people now only want a certain (very select few) of classes in the raid.

That’s not true at all.

What’s not true? The fact that people now just go in raids picking few classes/builds just because pseudo-meta? Even if there’re better alternatives?

Keyang.3729:

the tone to the thief forums have taken a delightful positive turn?

maybe?…

Not really. ^^

We’re just stating ONE, single pro of the thief class, its high DPS capabilities, in PvP it’s still subpar.

And even yet, we’re still facing the problem of the utter ignorance and obtuseness of the raid community, which won’t take a thief for the DPS role cause “herald dps is better”.

Sagat.3285:

I shall log back in again @Swiftwynd OP probably has access to HoT but I laughed every time someone asked if thief is worth it and the only positive responses are :“But DD has…” especially to returning players even more for PvE.

In all honesty, it’s not limited to thief/DD, it’s true all-around for any class, elite specs >>>>> base classes.

Sadly.

rogerwilko.6895:

Okay troll.
Nn.

@ OP: No, In my opinion Thief is not worth playing at this moment, unless your goal in GW2 is to gather resources fast (lumber / ore / plants).

It’s weapon sets and trait lines are messed up: condi skills mixed with power skills in different weapon sets that make no sense; re-hashed trait lines that are still a complete mess after the June change. The list can go on, but should you want more information I’m sure you can find it on reddit, since this forum is new and it lacks a WORKING FLUCKING SEARCH OPTION.

It’s power damage is decent, and in order to reach high numbers a player must do things like rotating the camera in stupid ways.

It’s condi damage (few bleeds and poisons, no access to burn) is mediocre at best, see the Venom share threads.

In order to reach the highest DPS so that you can contribute Something(your damage) to your group you will have to go full out DPS resulting in having 11k HP. GL with that.

Unless you will do you own testing, dps calculations and raid/fractals / world event monitoring with different professions under different setups (as I did) you can only read different threads to try to form an opinion.

So it is my opinion that Thief is not in a good place now for top PvE (Raids). I see no reason why a group leader would chose a 11k HP DPS-er with no group support. Why not chose a warrior or a Revenant who can output the same DPS by pressing #1, but have GREAT group support, almost Double HP and heavy armor?

I am aware that I may be wrong, and I really hope I am, since Thief is the profession that I enjoyed most in the past. But that hope (that I am wrong) is so tiny that I decided I won’t be a burden for my raid group and I won’t roll with a thief in raids.

/facepalm

Ok, so this is what I did.

I used a rotation of Vault/AA/WC/AA, filling it with Bound+Fist Flurry+Steal when available, paying attention to keep at least 1 bar of endurance always available in case it’s needed.

This rotation imo is quite good when playing in PUGs, it doesn’t burn our ini quickly (compared to a rotation that uses only AA and Vault) so we always have the possibility to burn ini when maxed buffs are up.

I’d use, instead, only Vault and AA with an organized group in TS, if the buffers are syncronized and they call the buffs somewhat ahead of time (let’s say 15-20 seconds before), so we can save some ini in order to discharge it when all the buffs are up.

Fact is, it’s true that WC has a higher dmg per ini, but it seems to me, after some tests, that it has a lower DPS than Vault, due to the somewhat clunky and longer casting and aftercasting time, not to mention that sometimes WC may hit only twice instead of 3 times (but this should improve with better positioning and it’s not a true problem with raid bosses which have a quite big hitbox).

BTW, I don’t think (but I’m open to be proven wrong ofc) that the venomshare build could reach this DPS, the only problem is that the rotation, even in its simplicity, it’s prone to be kittened up sometimes, it requires good reflexes and timing, but hey, that’s true for every build.

Now I’d like to see some numbers relative to the condi engie/zerkwar, some people still claim that they’re the highest DPS builds in raids, but without some numbers, I still consider it anedoctal (due to the fact, too, that staff DD hasn’t been used that much in raids yet cause “meta”).

Please don’t open new threads, there’re already others regarding this topic here and in the dungeon subforum, read those.

Wahaha.7938:

Does this daredevil build have one or more cc skills?

Soft CC: weakness (Weaking Charge), immobilize every 20 secs below 50% mob HP (with Panic Strike, switched to revelead training for Gorseval thou due to the revelead debuff available)
Hard CC: 2 secs stun on 20 secs CD (Palm Strike), 2 secs daze + launch on 40 secs CD (Impact Strike + Uppercut)

There could be cripple and blind too, but they’re not in the dps rotation so I wouldn’t count them in.

Uhm, I wonder why your numbers are lower than mines.

I made too some DPS tests with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmiNOBGOBkmiFaCbLPNc2TzVwN4IULAMhiAA-TJBFwACuAAI3foaZAAPAAA

So, the only buff with almost 100% uptime is ofc Fury, no might at all etc.

Without uber-precise rotations, I managed to keep around 9.5k DPS.

Some notes though:

- I noticed that using only Weaking Charge + autoattack + dodge result in less DPS than a rotation that uses Vault too. Vault in the end has a higher DPS when meleeing at point blank, since the animation is quicker than WC.
- I tried to use first Fire+Air sigil, then Air+Force. The Force sigil was better than Fire, with that I managed to get 9.5-9,6k dps, whereas with the Fire I was around 9.4k.

This with 2555 power, 2080 precision and 1208 Ferocity.
In PvE with full zerker equip and scholar runes, we get 2737 power, 2140 precision and 1274 Ferocity (without food/nourishment), and these numbers are heavily compounded by all our dmg modificators (due to how they works, multiplicative instead of sum).

The more I think about it, the more I’m surprised that staff daredevil is still not in the meta as the pure high DPS role. Who cares about support, there must be someone who’s dedicated to pure damage and it seems that DD fits this role.

I’ll check this in a raid as soon as possible, but it looks good so far.

Ensign.2189:

Or, more realistically, you bring a thief because you have some delusion that thief is a great damage dealer, and without DPS meters there isn’t hard empirical evidence to burst that bubble – so you make decisions based on what you think should happen not what actually happens.

If you don’t have empyrical evidence (hard-data) that DPS wise the thief is highest dmg dealer, then you don’t have empyrical evidence of the contrary.

This is basic logic, or is everyone now victim of double-standards?

Fool!

/15charrsin3rows

It’s indeed very sad when elitism comes out at low levels, 60- I’d say, they’re pretty easy with just some more toughness in bosses/higher AR req.

Teaching what to do doesn’t take that much time, however there’s one thing that I don’t tolerate either: when n00bs come in and don’t say a word (“hey, I’m new here, what am I supposed to do?” it’s not that hard to ask), even when they’re addressed.

I know that some of them are scared by the fact that real-life frustrated elitists snap-kick them out of the party, but still, in a group with 2-3 elitist they’ll be kicked out nonetheless, if they ask to be teached or not, so asking should never be a problem.

Not everyone is a moron (on one side or the other).

Swiftwynd.1685:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmiNOBGOBkmiFaCbLPNcqQzVwN4IULAMhiAA-ThRBABXp8DPdAAcBAe4BAQp6PmpEEA-e

For goreseval you want dagger mainhand for off set to spam heartseaker sub 25% health. Force and air for max damage still. Off hand is up to you.

Dagger pistol would be decent if additional mobility is needed on fights.

For gores fight you are perma revealed so revealed power is always active.

The goal is to try to stay full health and avoid the stuns to keep your damage flowing. Its hard because his animations dont appear to synch up well with the actual damage. Im still working on improving with my dodges.

Assuming you dont have to time the dodge, your normal rotation is dosge, staff 2, auto chain while you move into next dodge position. Landing the dodge takes some getting used to.

If you have your dodge buff going, and your boss is stunned like after breaking gore’s breakbar, spam the crap out of 2 to burn through your initiative since he will be moved shortly after, then use auto chain and fist flurry as fillers. Or use fist flurry and impact strike to help with breakbar.

Ty for the infos. Just a quick question, after looking at some videos of Gorseval, it seems to me that the revealed debuff is active only during the first 25% of the combat, after that no one has any revealed debuff active.

Am I missing something about that?

Swiftwynd.1685:

Assuming others provide the 25 might and fury, which any good comp should, it simply has the highest sustained damage in the game. The rotation is a simple dodge, staff 2, then a full auto chain while you reposition.

This combines a huge list of modifiers and strictly speaking is the highest direct damage build available. Dare devil alone adds 10% 10% and 7% mods. Then you have all the ones from crit strikes and deadly arts.

Staff 2 on a large hitbox is the most initiative efficent damage outside of low health heartseeker. You can also deal damage during situations where most other classes have to stop their damage to either dodge or use cc, since both your xodge and cc skills contribute good damage.

Laslty, invigorating precision transfers your damage into slef sustain making you very durable during a fight even without a healer.

The only reason Heralds appear to have crazy damage is Quickness uptime, but a good chronomancer can time warp every 30 seconds, and a heralds f2 buff can extend that quickness better than the herald using impossible odds, so the thief can have their better base damage buffed even higher with all of the offensive support from others.

Basically, while a thief doesnt bring offensive support, it benefits the most from offensive support provided by others rather than doubling up on say 3 revs or extra warriors or chronos.

Care to expand on this build?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmilOBGOBkmiFaCbzwpCNXB3gjQtAgIAA-TlRBABXp8DPdAAcBAe4BAQp6PmpEEA-w

I left some parts empty, cause I’m pretty undecided on what to use in order to maximize DPS.

For example, runes, since we are always under might, better to use Strength (+5% dmg with 100% uptime), Scholar or Daredevil?
Sigil: Fire + Air or Air + Force?
2nd weapon set?

Thank you in advance.

However, to expand on my previous post, Chill/Slow affecting ini regen would be the overkill for the Thief class.

And here’s why.

All other classes have only CDs on weapon skills. Now, if, say, they’ve used #4 and #5, and they get Chilled, they have the option to use #2 and #3, knowing that would increase the CDs.
For us Thieves, what would happen if we get Chill after having used already 10 ini (let’s say, 2 Vaults)? We would be completely screwed, having the whole weapon bar effectively shutted down for the duration of Chill, we wouldn’t even get the option for X seconds to use any #2-5 skill.

That would mean that we should have not only to equip DD trait line (pretty mandatory), but that we would need to equip Trickery always.

The only way not to render Alacrity too much OP on Thieves without letting Chill/Slow effective on ini regen would be to let Alacrity give us something like +33%/25% ini regen instead of the full +66%.

I don’t see any other way around it.

To be fair, then Chill should affect ini too (it never did and it still doesn’t).