Guild Wars 2

helladoom.4317:

like what?

dungeons = grind
pvp = not my thing/my PC is not up to WvWvW standards

what’s left: run from poi to vista to waypoint, solo some small events, hope to run into a group.

Why is there no massively multiplayer PvE in this mmorpg?

No massively multiplayer PvE?

The whole game save for Hearts is designed to be played in groups! Not only that but everyone is threated like they’re grouped with each other all the time, events scale and every single impediment to group play is removed and you claim there is no massively multiplayer PvE?

In my opinion there is a problem but its opposite of what you’re saying. Its so easy and rewarding to team up that you get massive zergs that roam making the events that tackle way too easy cause they end up many times larger then to what level the event scales to!

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

Yeah, because you didn’t skip whole tiers on your way… oh wait.
Basically any character playing normally could manage to be able to afford a full exotic set by the level 80 or shortly after, with no grinding necessary. On the way to lev 80 you could keep being clad in masters as soon as the first heart vendors with them appeared (which they do in starting 1-15 areas already), or just craft for cheap. Rares were nice extra from drops, but usually skipped completely.

On the other hand you could equip several characters in full exotics for the cost of one ascended piece – and lot of players will not have even close enough money and resources for that one piece at lev 80. That’s for backpiece (which requires additional token grinding or luck in RNG on top of that). Rings can be found only by RNG, after grinding through 10 fractal levels (which will become harder and harder with time, as more and more people will move to higher fractal levels)

Common->exotic jump was a gear grind, but it was designed to be on a bearable level. By extension, Exotic->ascended jump is well beyond bearable for anyone except hardcore grinders.

Well lets put it this way, first I did my personal story with gear I looted some I was a mixed of some masterworks some fine an perhaps a couple of rare dont remember. Then I leveled my tailoring and crafted myself some rares while leveling tailor to 400. Then I started crafting exotic armor, got the chest and legs done. Saw corrupted staff loved it and well started saving for the lodestones. I have enough money to just craft the rest of my gear to exotic all at once, or even just straight out buy it but never bothered because I like how my armor mixed between rare and exotic looks like and I can go through dungeons without even dieing once. Sometimes without even being downed once.

So in retrospect it would take 0 grind to get my exotic, still have a lot of “grind” to get my corrupted staff now that the bots are gone because prices of lodestones doubled. But Like I said before gear is so no important in this game it really doesnt matter what tier your wearing!

People want Ascended gear I get it, they should get them without grind! Arenanet already said they’re going to make Ascended gear available outside of FoTM so wait for that! work on your skins, level alts do what you enjoy! A backpack and a couple of rings will not change anything seriously!

LordByron.8369:

Notice how a vocal minority (proven minority at least on the forum) uses the same method of attacking people, or rather than supporting arguments with FACTS and constructive posts.

I think nobody doubts that the patch have made a huge number of people more than displeased.

Feel free to browse internet to find VG media opinion on this….
You’ll find word like “failure, betrays etc etc etc”.

Another thing…
They said they introduced ONE new tier.

We could start debating if they instead introduced at least 3 new tiers.

Ascended, Ascended infused, and i heard another tier of infusion

NB infusion is not the upgrade in the slot but the quality of the item.

Now if they only extend agony out of fotm they just released 3 tiers…..

First costs just 50-70 golds and an really rare drop (acount bound), second 5 really rare drops and 40 golds…

Then you have infusions that actually are only white and blue but they could release many more….

I do not agree this is like wow, its actually worse as only korean grinding mmorpg are….NCsoft has experience in that….

If we look at the posts / what people were saying when Gw2 launched you’d find lots of people complaining you can finish it all in a week or two and there is nothing left to do once you reach level 80. I am sure you’ll agree 100% with me that was entirely inaccurate!

Just cause multiple people share the same opinion doesnt mean their argument is automatically correct!

As for infused ascended armor being a whole new tier… please do I even have to reply to this? Ascended gear is already less then a whole tier stats wise (9% when compared to 14%) but what do infusions provide? the once listed in the wiki say +5 precision and another one +5 vitality. even if every new tier is 100% better then the previous one. it will take 2 levels of infusions for ascended gear to reach the stats of a full tier and a whole 55 more infusion levels before ascended gear + infusions will reach a whole new tier of gear! Thats provided everyone goes for offensive infusions only. To me defensive infusions make a lot more sense to overcome FoTM which wouldn’t make your gear any better!

Can we please stick with the facts and not come up with wierd completely wrong theories such as this being 2 or 3 tiers of gears not 1!

asobinin.5467:

El Hefe and Galen Grey, none of this uproar existed before the Lost Shores patch. For the most part, everyone enjoyed the game, did what they wanted to do. After the patch, everything is so different. How do you explain that? Are people out of their mind suddently after the patch? Just because you ignore the new contents doesn’t mean everyone else should. What’s the point of creating a content if it’s to be ignored? For it to be a good content, it needs to be enjoyed by and accessible by the majority of players.

I like playing in the new dungeon infact, but it’s so hard to get a group for my particular level. None of this existed prior to the patch. If I wanted to find a PUG for a dungeon, it was instant. Now, I have to spam in LA for an hour just to get a group for a particular level of my fractal. THIS is not fun. This kind of thing was supposed to be so yesterday. It wasn’t supposed to exist in GW2. So tell me, what am I supposed to do if I’m trying to enjoy the content that I like, but the process for it causes me agony.

Just because you two enjoy the game your own way and ignore the pressing fact doesn’t change a single thing about the effect the patch has brought up on to the community. People are suddenly losing appeal with the game because of the patch. Good for you to find the game still fun. You can’t dictate fun for others, so respect that. Don’t just write it off as “take a break”, “just play what you find fun”, or “the problem isn’t serious so stop worrying”.

Whether YOU awknowledge it or not, the patch created issues, players are unhappy, there’s an uproar, and it’s affecting the dynamics of the game.

People over reacting?

Thing is we already had this sort of thing from the opposite camp! People saying there is nothing to do at level 80 what was the reply then? you’re right the game is not fun? no we explained to them all the stuff you could do at level 80! Now it seems there is another yet mis perception and yes this is a misperception because its a fact Ascended gear didnt change a single thing yet the same exact game that was amazingly fun to play has suddenly become boring?

The soul of any horizontal progression game is having a large horizontal surface area to play in. The problem (for us) with vertical progression is you have a narrow corridor that keeps taking you up and up making everything behind it irellevant. Gw2 still has its horizontal soul! Ascended gear gates nothing and makes no content irellevant ! I am sorry but its just you own personal choice making it so !

I or no other can tell you how to enjoy any game, everyone plays their own way! All I can tell you is the game is still 100% horizontal but you seem to have decided to play it 100% vertically just because they introduced that option in one single place!

If I am a PvE player and the next update they release PvE content and PvP content I am going to play all of that PvE content and enjoy all that PvE content! I am certainly not going to spend all my time playing PvP saying how much the game is unenjoyable to me!

Ascended gear will become a problem once you’ll be unable to play some content without it! Right now there isnt such a problem in fact you can be missing exotic and Rare gear and still play everything effectively! Until then and until lower level content remains relavant in my opinion Gw2 remains entirely Horizontal !

So why am I enjoying the game while so many dont it seems? well the only thing I can see is because I play horizontally cause I enjoy playing horizontally from what I am seeing these people want to play horizontally but are unable to do it unless forced in it! thats my view at least!

LordByron.8369:

marnick.4305:

Don’t make a fool of yourself. You can’t get a refund, most of the things claimed are not ground for a class action and whatever changed you agreed to up front with the EULA.

As said many many times your ignoance in laws is astonishing.

EULA has no legal validity…at all

Manifesto has (in europe for sure).

Its called false advertising…….

again misinformation and personal attacks from patch defenders…

Almost 100% of their posts are like this..

Of course you’re ignoring a cructial thing that is what was intended with the manifesto is subjective!

The manifesto essentially said that you shouldnt have to play long time to be on par with anyone else. Did they break that promise? in PvE it doesnt apply because there is no compentition in sPvP it doesnt apply cause everyone gets the best gear. In WvW you might have a problem but then they clearly stated time and time again that WvW is intentionally unbalanced (and they are right your armor plays an insignificant part in the grand scheme of things in WvW)

I for one dont agree with ascended armor having better stats, but honestly for me they didnt break the manifesto! nothing they did makes anything said false, for me!

Its not that easy to proof in court as you think in my opinion!

anyhow Sony with the playstation 3 removed a whole feature the ability to run linux
they were taken to court and still won!

the reason why its expensive is because of the corrupted lodestones. They dont have a good drop rate but if you’re the type who likes farming you “only” need 20 of them for a dagger I believe.

With good magic find you’ll probably get 1 ever 1 – 2 hrs

or you could just play the game and then save up the money to buy the lodestones. thats what I am doing

ohh as for how to find it, you need to craft it. The recepie is available from the vendor that spawns once you kill the claw of jormag dragon in frostgorge sound

looks like the corrupted dagger to me

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey,

This is not a “witch hunt” and stop blaming the victim for a legitimate complaint.

Lets say that wow was like a car. For years I had a car but then wanted something different so I turn in the car and buy a truck (which is like GW2). So after three months I look in the garage and the dealer took away the truck and replaced it with a El Camino (new GW2). Now you can play lawyer all day and play with the definition and say that I still have a truck but it’s not what I originally wanted or bought.

And yes Anet has a right to change the game any way they see fit but the feelings and actions of those who feel misled on these forms are also legitimate.

ohh it most certainly is a witch hunt!
A legitimate complain would be, I bought this game because of its pure horizontal progression and I dont like the fact now a gear with better stats was introduced because I am afraid this is the start of vertical progression which I definitely dont want. Thats a legimate complain but is that what we’re seeing ? no, We’re seeing Arenanet lied to us because people somehow decided even though they specifically said they’re not introducing a treadmill and they’ll not be releasing new tiers regularly means they’ll be doing exactly the opposite of what they said! we’re seeing people say they used love gw2 but now they’ll do everything in their power to see it crash and burn, we’re seeing people take every statement arenanet make on the subject twisted in ways to mean exactly the opposite of what they’re trying to say!

Take your analogy for example, you’re calling horizontal progression a truck and vertical progression a car. You said that the last patch 100% turned the truck into a hybrid mini truck / car which is not true at all!

There is still no vertical progression, a single new tier doesnt make it so unless there is some written law somewhere that say 5 tiers is okey to consider a game horizontal but 6 tiers makes it vertical! the only vertical progression they really introduced isnt the ascended gear itself its agony / infusion system in FoTM and that doesnt even kick in after level 10.

Truth is the only thing that changed is there is one more tier to get that take a bit more effort then exotic. Its entirely optional. Ignoring the set doesnt stop you from playing absolutely everything the game has to offer!

So you still have your same exact truck, but there is this one race track that when you complete 10 laps if you decide you can switch it up with your El Camino and once you do that you can decide if you want to drive one or the other or mix and match them if you want!

I am not blaming the victim in fact I spoke against this ascended gear myself the day it was announced but this has gone so much further then that now! Its gotten to a point where people seem they feel they have to renounce the game or they’d be considered heretics against the horizontal progression phylosofy which is ironic because yes they’re the ones actually betraying horizontal progression cause the moment better gear become available even though its entirely uneeded to play Everything they still rushed to get it and cant stop themselves from repeating this content they say they really dislike until they get it!

Its most certainly seems a witch hunt to me!

IonicBlaze.7948:

Galen Grey.4709:

IonicBlaze.7948:

Sodapop.3715:

Face.7032:

Population dropped severely after the last event was over, that’s to be expected but I personally am going to take a break (after WvWing incessantly) until they alter how Ascendant gear is obtained.

when u say population dropped severely, how do you know?

http://beta.xfire.com/games/gw2

Wow so based on that data Gw2 got about 6m players now?

I mean what that show us is Gw2 has 4k players player 17k hours per day. we dont know how many players Gw2 has but we know how many players WoW has

according to that: http://beta.xfire.com/games/wow
WoW has 6k players playing 29k hours.

That makes Gw2 having 60% less then WoW, WoW has 10m players so gw2 must have 6 million players… amazing! wonder why they never announced reaching the 6m mark.

/sarcasm

Can we please stop with the meaningless xfire data ?

Nobody said that everybody uses x-fire, but its one of many indicators and it clearly show the direction. Ascended gear brought no benefit to the game.

The only thing xfire shows is that it isnt reliable source of information.

What are you going to base yourself opinion on? number of players? The highest I remember xfire was 7k players and how its 4k players. But what does that mean? that population dropped by 50%? that those 7k players dont play every day anymore? Does it mean players uninstall xfire? Does it mean they’re playing for a different location?

When we take a game like wow though that we know the actual number of in this period of a month we see a 20% drop in hours played. If that declining number would be any indication what so ever of a decline in player base subscription would have fallen yet we know they have not! (and btw if you looked at xfire the week MOP launched it was 120k hours so WoW subscriptions would be close to 2m – 3m now if there was a direct relation like people are implying.

Seriously Xfire provides no usable data whatsever!

Shadow Blade.1324:

Galen Grey.4709:

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

I wont take your word for it.
I’d like to see a video of this and where you solo events considering i get hit pretty hard by sentry’s on alts that are being upscaled. kindly show your hero panel just before you attack and during and mouse over any gear you do have equipped, not using lvl 1 white weapons? why not?

Some players dont attack naked people who are in WvW for exploration/jumping puzzles, why did you not chase and fight them with your gearless skills, or can you not get kills without other geared players backing you up, which seems to negate the point your trying to make

why dont you just try it yourself? But I will record a video like you asked.

I tried chasing them but I have a necro not many things I can do to stop people who have swifts and teleports.

Kiviar.7063:

Its natural for long term games to lose population like this. I bet if you went and look at WoW’s xfire profile it would have a similar drop since the last expansion came out.

If you take a look at NCsoft’s stock over the last year, things are not looking super happy fantastic however. I expect a lot of pressure is going to be put on the Anet devs to produce profits as quickly as possible to stop their 4th quarter from being a total disaster.

what disaster are you speaking about exactly?
I am not an accountant so maybe I am reading this wrong but says in their q3 financial report that in q2 the did 7b korean won loss, in q3 they did 50b operating profit that is 50% more then the same period last year.

In terms of net profit they did 47b which is an increase of 75% from last year

gw2 amounted for 27% of the sales followed by 23% lineage and 20% blade and soul.

Arenanet increased its profits by 2258% ! year on year!

So question what financial disaster are you talking about exactly? seems pretty solid to me!

IonicBlaze.7948:

Sodapop.3715:

Face.7032:

Population dropped severely after the last event was over, that’s to be expected but I personally am going to take a break (after WvWing incessantly) until they alter how Ascendant gear is obtained.

when u say population dropped severely, how do you know?

http://beta.xfire.com/games/gw2

Wow so based on that data Gw2 got about 6m players now?

I mean what that show us is Gw2 has 4k players player 17k hours per day. we dont know how many players Gw2 has but we know how many players WoW has

according to that: http://beta.xfire.com/games/wow
WoW has 6k players playing 29k hours.

That makes Gw2 having 60% less then WoW, WoW has 10m players so gw2 must have 6 million players… amazing! wonder why they never announced reaching the 6m mark.

/sarcasm

Can we please stop with the meaningless xfire data ?

LOCO.1785:

Yeah that’s true.

What I’d really like to see are the actual revenue figures, but that’s never gonna happen. So all i have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

In any case, I’d say the latest patch certainly didn’t have the impact they were hoping for.

Actually you can see that, check ncsoft quarterly financial filling.
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx

This includes data up to September I believe.

Anyhow did listen to it my and essentially ncsoft told its investors in that call that GW2 exceed its expectations. They sold 2m copies in the first 2 weeks and where expecting to reach 3m before the end of the year. And they did $14m up to September from the cash shop.

The game is doing great! they didnt do this because the game didnt perform, they did this to try to offer some content to everyone like they themselves said after all!

Fortuna.7259:

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

What? if they had released all the set at once it would have been like adding 3 – 4 tiers? How did you come to that conclusion? A single tier is a whole armor set from start to finish that share the same stats how can it be like 3 – 4 tiers all at once? Seriously I’d take one hard look at how you’re perceiving this whole thing. Its a fact, not even debatable that what they did is release a single tier of armor. Yet because they’re staggering the release of that tier first you saw it as a treadmill but when presented with the scenario of how it would look if they had released it all at once you’re seeing it 3 – 4 tiers even though its unquestionably just a single tier! You’re either trying to win the argument too hard or if you truely feel like this you’re trying to see this a lot worst then it really is for some reason!

Fortuna.7259:

As for ‘why I personally want ascended gear’ being the most “crucial question,” I can only laugh. Call me crazy, but the impact of Ascended gear on the game seems a whole lot more crucial. Besides which I don’t “want” Ascended gear. I’d quite enjoy it being deleted entirely.

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

Fortuna.7259:

Honesty? Honesty tells you that this was done to please a certain population and that this will need to be done again – for the same reasons. Don’t even try to tell me what was done with this update was “honest.”

Didnt they do that? They said this was done for what they called “dedicated” players who finished crafting exotics too quickly and had nothing to do so they did FoTM to provide players with a sort of progression but at the same time not a treadmill

You’re trying to twist things again. the argument was about them being honest about wht they’re doing but now you switched to discussing if the update itself was honest! For us who wanted complete horizontal game we’ll never see it as honest of course. Players who wanted progression will see it as honest because their desires are being considered as should desires of everyone paying for the game. People who are neutral will also see it as honest because unlike the general perception here, they didnt betray horizontal players in favor of vertical, they instead found a compromise.

Fortuna.7259:

Incorrect. Words from someone who hasn’t kept their word are just empty words. Only ACTION can defuse this issue.

Bet nothing can defuse this issue! thats the thing about witch hunts, getting the witch doesnt defuse the hysteria it just makes the witch hunters look for the next witch. People should never have taken this issue so far and set off this avalange. Instead of just telling arenanet they disagreed with what they did clearing waiting and seeing how they’d respond people went all out, that was wrong imho

Horrorscope.7632:

Galen Grey.4709:

We keep thinking that a small minority wanted vertical progression but it could also be that unfortunately the majority of the people just cant play a horizontal game like we do ! If you dont get a sense of wonder exploring, enjoying the art and experiencing stories what is there left for you to do in a horizontal progression game? If you cant enjoy a really beautifully crafted dynamic event chain, will you enjoy a skin that gives you no better stats?

I snipped a lot for everyone’s sake. Well I don’t have #‘s to give you on who likes horiz or vert, but it still goes against everything they been selling fans and if you didn’t like horiz, you bought the wrong game from the start. How do you make a game for 5+ years, say the same thing over and over and in a few months change it that fast? Even if the #‘s bore it out, that is a lightning quick design change, they seemingly didn’t even attempt to keep it horizontal. Typically the forces of change like that are: Money crunch, change in design leadership or a call from above.

I actually held off buying GW2 for a couple of months, I was one that didn’t feel it was ready, I actually got in because my son got it for his birthday, so I jumped in. The games handling to me never felt like GW1, I just recently found out two founders and a lead designer of GW1 were not on the GW2, that explained all I needed to know there. What I do find is the best open world game I’ve played, so I am enjoying my time, I would say if they needed to make a big change fast, they should have looked at the games strengths and strengthened them more. Even though the open world is great, we all can imagine it even better and guess what, that would have continued building community and not separation.

And the broken record I am, they should have gone for tons more unique looking gear to go for and not better stat’d gear. All would have stayed in line.

Thing is so far they didnt change for horz prog to vert prog. Adding one tier once just doesnt do that! they need to keep adding tiers to become a vertical prog game.

What they did is compromise. The game is still entirely horz but there is one exception FoTM which tries to offer some sort of vert prog through the use of agony and infusions. Gear stays the same but slotted infusions progress levels as you get deeper in the dungeon which you need better infusions to do! So far thats the only real vertical progression they did! And its also optional vertical progression. If you dont care about vertical progression but still want to run the dungeon you can select any level of difficulty from 1 – 10 and play it as many times as you want!

All in all they implemented this in really good way the only miss step they did in my opinion is give more stats to ascended armor, I can understand why they did it but well it was to be expected horizontal progression people would be quite against it!

You know seems to me people dont really want a horizontal progression game, they want a vertical progression game that can be played like a horizontal progression game.

Why am I saying that? Cause if you really wanted a horizontal progression game you know, you’d like stuff a horizontal progression game has. You know stuff like, nice skins, exploration, story etc… yet people keep saying here before I used to do horizontal progression stuff now just cause they added a new tier I am doing vertical progression stuff! Don’t you see the irony in that? seriously! You all drop the horizontal stuff you’re supposed to like the second a little better gear appears? Think about the message you’re sending with the way you’re playing the game. Think about it… imagine you’re a person analysing what people enjoy in gw2. They release a new tier and suddenly most people rush to get it! dont you think that says thats exactly what people have been waiting for? Sure you can tell them how much you disapprove of it in the forum but we’re still less then 10k here out of 2 – 3 million people!

So let me answer your question from my perspective.
Before I used to explore trying to uncover secret area and secret events, do jumping puzzle,simply just play the game and in the process gather stuff to craft the crossing, corrupted staff, get the royal ascalonian staff, play alts, do a little WvW, try a little SPvP.

What am I doing now? exactly the same thing! I’d rather having the crossing then an ascended backpack personally!

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Jezath.7395:

the gap they bridged was TIME people… TIME…

Its to give us something to go for along the road to legendarys.

Except that “going for” ascended gear leeches time, effort, and resources that you could be putting toward actually getting that legendary.

If you’;re willing to put the time for a legendary go for a legendary rather then ascended gear!

Hologramx.6402:

If they added only the agony stats that is only required in FotM, no extra stats as huge as one extra upgrade slot, things would be quite different. It won’t be a gear progression, it will be a pure FotM progression and won’t affect WvWvW. But they just did it, while adding the mechanics of a Gating War. Now that discrimination has flooded over everywhere, map chat, guild chat … I felt this world of Tyria has become such a harsh and unpleasant land now.

conceptually I agree, but this is obviously intended for people who better looking cosmetic gear wasnt enough of an incentive to play the game. If Ascended armor had no better stats it just wouldnt have worked for its intended purpose. It would have been dismissed by the people its intended for as another useless skin with a different name!

If people are discriminating based on gear outside FoTM then they really dont know how to play this game! … inside FoTM well that place is intended for player who want progression, such people want to feel they’re cutting edge even if that edge is mostly illusionary If you dont like that play style my suggestion would be steer clear

Horrorscope.7632:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Silentstorm.7531:

Just because you don’t agree with a subject. Why because I called people whining care bears? For one whining itself is care bear regardless of the subject people should man up.

So, when GW2 actually looked like it was following its manifesto, and a subset of the players complained about no endgame because they sped-run their way through everything, that was also whining, and they should have just manned up. You cannot have it both ways. Guess what, they didn’t just man up and shut up, and there has been a change. So, there is a precedent for complaints getting responded to.

Solid point. They could have been told, “hey we told you how this game was going to be and you just ignored that and ran the content at light-speed and now you get what you sow. We aren’t changing our vision we’ve had during the entire development of GW2, for a % of power gamers”. Or simply “Man-up”, meaning shut up and take it like you take everything else. That one works both ways.

Actually this is a very important point thats not getting the consideration it deserves. People are way too sure that the reason they added this was because people on forum were asking for vertical progression but I have a feeling it may also have involved how people were playing the game. When you design a horizontal progression game rather then a vertical you have obviously got to do more horizontal content then vertical one. That means at any level there needs to be a lot more content to do then just that required to level me up! cast in point there are multiple zones of the same level. The content stashed in every zone over levels you 3 or more levels and outleveling a zone doesnt reduce your ability to play it and be rewarded. They definitely did their part well in creating a horizontal game.

In a horizontal game, gear / leveling is secondary and story and content is the primary driver. But were people really playing that way? in my experience not at all! I would start an event change and see people come rushing in after the dynamic event in a chain starts do the content and run off once it gave XP not caring there is a next event in the chain. I would specifically tell them one event continue they should hang around and they’d still leave! They werent playing for the content, they were playing for the reward! Thats not how you play a horizontal game. I did multiple youtube videos on this, showing the vast different experience you get if you take dynamic events a singular events or if you take them as a holisitc chain and many comments said things like, WoW I never knew they chained like that, not on day one but 2 months down the line!

We keep thinking that a small minority wanted vertical progression but it could also be that unfortunately the majority of the people just cant play a horizontal game like we do ! If you dont get a sense of wonder exploring, enjoying the art and experiencing stories what is there left for you to do in a horizontal progression game? If you cant enjoy a really beautifully crafted dynamic event chain, will you enjoy a skin that gives you no better stats?

Gehenna.3625:

Not at this moment but I expect that will change when the full armour set of ascended gear will be out. Apparently there is already a requirement for FotM for which level you are at. This is not directly asking for ascended gear but it does indicate that this behaviour is already starting and I expect it to increase over time.

Will it really? I mean so far we have 2 ascended items, rings you get by doing FoTM Thats no different then say getting a dungeon armor set. People have been doing dungeons before ascended gear but that didnt mean no people were doing dynamic events especially considering that to do back items you need crafting materials that you dont get from FoTM but rather the open world!

Gehenna.3625:

Not today, but the prospect is there. Once ascended gear is a full set, there will be a significant difference between players who have this gear, fully infused blah blah and those who don’t. Also because it is harder to collect than exotic gear it will take longer. This will affect WvW within the next 6 moths in my expectation. sPvP has it’s own gear and there is no ascended gear there…….yet.

even if they introduce ascended gear in sPvP, everyone will have access to it, it would be crazy to change that imho so I personally do not worry about that!

As for WvW I did an experiment yesterday morning. I removed all my armor and gave it a try. so I didnt down grade myself 1 tier but 5 whole tiers! I did 7 kills and died twice
I was also able to solo events in WvW again with no armor what so ever on (am including accessories here including rings, back items, earnings and amulate. I was literally wearing nothing!) Not saying an ascended gear set will not give you an advantage it will increase your stats a little of course but this is still a skill based game, better stats dont help as much as people are thinking they do imho!

Gehenna.3625:

Now, I do get your general idea that ascended gear by itself doesn’t suddenly change the complete game as it is today. But what we do see is that the game is going into a different direction. If you don’t like the direction, you tend to not wanna tag along. Let’s say that you take a train to visit family in town A and the train changes direction to location B. You may not be far off track yet but you don’t want to go to B, you wanted to go to A.

So the big problem is where this game is going. But along with that, I now see people coming to the forum talking about people requiring level xx for FotM and other areas emptying out because a lot of people are grinding FotM. So there is a direct impact that is starting to take place, also in attitude and a future direction that a number of people find undesirable.

I think this part is a complex issue. I think Arenanet tried to strike a compromise and it just backfired. I think they tried to have a vertical progression system in one dungeon while keeping the rest of the game horizontal ! They figured people who didnt want to grind for Ascended armor could just ignore it because outside of FotM no content requires it at all ! Thats why they introduced Infusion / Agony. From my own personal calculation Ascended gear is 9-10% better then exotic while generally all other tiers are around 13% better. But I suspects that mainly because it leaves them free to provide vertical progression through infusions that give a very small boost to stats and eventually with enough levels of infusion they might get ascended gear to the proper 13%. At the same time they made a dungeon thats extensible and said they plan to add to it. Thats unpresidented why do such a thing? the reason that comes to mind is because this was intended as at least for now the only vertical progression content! this allows them to cater to both player bases. But it just didnt work as expected. I think they were hoping that people who go for horizontal progression just want gear that allows them to get the job done but instead it turns out they too want the best gear!

Gehenna.3625:

What can I say, some people may decide lightning is coming whent hey see the clouds gather and hear thunder. People like you seem to need to be struck by lightning before they believe it was coming. Sometimes the signs are clear enough.

Well I guess part of it might be because there is a proverb in my country that translated says something on the lines of “dont bandage your head before you actually hurt it” The game radically changing from horizontal progression to vertical progression is just one path the game can take! It may also be just a one time thing to try to provide some content for people who like vertical progression. In any case I expect this to be much clearer tomorrow after the AmA

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey,

You’re probably right about how much the stats are minor. But that is looking at it rationally. Games are fundamentally emotional not rational. I personally just don’t feel complete until I have max gear and am not free to play around until I have it. Call it my own personal insecurities but I think it’s just part of human nature.

Thats fair enough and I do understand it! But as long as you understand you’re not missing out much but not having you can rest easy that taking a month or two to get it is not a big deal. So why not wait until they add more ways how to acquire ascended gear if FoTM is not something you enjoy doing?

my personal understanding is the gap they talk about was not a statistical one but rather one based on effort required to obtain. takes 1 or 2 weeks to get a full exotic set with casual play. Takes 6 months – 1 year to get a legendary with casual play.

That means that people who dont like to wait 6 months+ to get a reward didnt have anything to work for once they’re done with exotics. (personally I though named exotics were a good fit for such people but well since there are just weapons perhaps arenanet felt they’re not enough dont know!)

Anyhow Ascended armor sets are meant to be something you’d get after working for them for more then a couple of weeks but less then a bunch of months.

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey,

Ascended gear messes with the psychology of the game. The motivation for things becomes external as opposed to internally motivated. People are doing things for the best gear and that changes the mindset of players. Tunnel vision sets in as people chase after the carrot. It changes the whole dynamic of the game in my opinion. At least it does for me.

I understand what you’re saying. And I agree with you, it was a mistake to introduce ascended gear that had better stats because like you said people will be drawn to it. However is it really a carrot at the end of the day? honestly for me Ascended gear is a bad thing to have! I am not kidding I would rather not wear it! even with a rare armor set the game is way too easy! I did an experiment today, I tried to do a little WvW without any armor, removed everything including accessories! unfortunately I didnt have a lot of time and it was early in the morning so not many players which in a way it was good didnt want to be in a zerg which would skew my effectiveness. Anyhow end result was 7 kills and 2 deaths! I even soloed a few events in WvW wearing no armor!

I think people are making the mistake of considering Gw2 to be like other MMOs where success or failure depends primarily on your armor but this is a skill based game first and foremost! Gear helps obviously but not as much as people are imaging! Try it out for yourself try playing the game with no armor and you’ll see you’ll still be very effective!

Fuz.5621:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fuz.5621:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not!

It is now.

Page 2, 31st post from the top of this thread.

Already explained to you in detail how no its still not the same MMO.

And you’re wrong.

care to be a bit more specific?
I mentioned the 5 main things that sets Gw2 aside from other MMOs and how ascended armor doesnt change any of them! you think they’re all wrong?

Ascended armor made Dynamic events less imerssive?

Ascended armor made reaching max level take longer?

Is there any content at all I cant play without having Ascended armor?

will I get destroyed in sPvP without Ascended armor?

will I get destroyed in WvW without Ascended armor?

Fuz.5621:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not!

It is now.

Page 2, 31st post from the top of this thread.

Already explained to you in detail how no its still not the same MMO.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rezzet.3614:

i dont see what the problem is the gear-threadmill is not a problem in this game because you are NOT being charged 20$ monthly and being forced to play and its not like the new gear triples in power compared to the current gear the diferences are minimal, but yeah what the hell is rong with new things in game over time if we are NOT being charged at all for them.

It’s not “wrong” . . . not in a fundamental way, taken on its own.

The problem comes in when you start taking the one fact “It’s okay to add new things to the game” and people don’t like that new thing. Now you have a problem, partly in the fact you added something which was unpopular with some people and partly in the fact there’s players who are not happy with you now.

How do you solve it? Well if it was that simple, you just take it back out, say “oops” and go on with your work.

Now, the problem compounds when part of the players don’t want you to remove it. Who cares what the reason is, the crucial part is there are at least two groups in opposition over the simple “we added this”.

How do you solve this problem?

It gets better, though. Say now that when you added this you firmly thought “this will be cool” and your idea wasn’t received well. (This is also a gross understatement).

How do you solve it now?

Edit: Hint – You’re not going to make everyone happy in the last two options. It’s just not happening. We’re now back to square one – you have a problem

The best middle-ground response is to spread Ascended gear as far and wide as exotics were at the launch of the game. This removes the general feeling that you MUST run (explative-deleted)-hard fractals just to get meaningful rewards for your max-level toon, and will thus stop the bleeding and start the healing on the heavily-impacted “other parts” of the game.

You can even toss out new armor models for each Ascended set on the existing explorer mode dungeons.

Do I dislike the fact they’re introducing a vertical gear-grind? YES. BUT the much more pressing and important factor is that tying this Ascended gear to only one aspect of the game has bled the others dry. Further, pushing people who are after shinies into the most difficult aspect of the game has encouraged exclusionary behavior in an effort to seek “easier means” as well as outright elitist trolling.

Indeed, and it’s why I keep saying I think their biggest misstep was rushing this part out and letting the rest languish But even so, I think this big outcry will have tainted it all by the time it finally gets sent out into the world. (I’m wagering next week.)

It’s already soured my view on the game, but I can endure IF they manage to lure people back out of fractals and into the existing content again.

I want to avoid fractals as agony is not based in skill, and learned from years in games like WoW and Rift that gear progression means absolutely zip and is a futile endeavor.

If I see the gear issue is denying me loot due to “dps competition” against event mobs, I may rethink this, but as of right now ANet still has a chance to salvage this.

I have been VERY vocal in my criticisms here, but have not gone as far as to broadcast to friends or anyone outside this forum to “stay away” just yet.

Now I agree 100% with all you said! just want to add it will not deny you loot due to dps competition. Trust me been playing in rares and never had that issue in the least!

Columba.9730:

StormGryffen.7638:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

I refer to the people who stayed loyal to GW1 and purchased this game based on what was promised. Not the people who had no idea what the game promised, no experience with GW1 and asked the game to be something other than what it was. I consider the former brand loyalists.

I am one of those players and while I dont like the idea of Ascended armor at all as it is implemented right now it doesnt bother me beyond it could get worst in the future. Right now it can even be total ignored with real repercussions! So while if I was part of the design team I would have voted against this, its implementation doesnt alienate me. In a way I am grateful they implemented in such a way that they can keep providing progression through infusions, limiting to the one dungeon without effecting the open world.

They tried to compromise between two groups of people, both customers who just happen to want opposite things.

And I am not sure I am comfortable with your argument that brand loyalty should get preferential treatment. All customers should be equal, we all paid for the game. Think about it, how would you feel if you walk into a restaurant ask for the table you reserved and which the restaurant confirmed and being told that your table reservation was dropped because a loyal customer called in and there was no other table available but since you were new they thought it would be unfair to alienate a loyal customer. Would you think thats a sensible thing to do?

Dont get me wrong I am definitely not saying its fine to do the opposite of what your loyal fan base want and like I said many times now I would have much rather ascended armor didnt have better stats but rather was exotic armor with an infusion slot and perhaps a cooler skin but we should appreciate the fact that they didnt totally ignore us when they designed it. They tried to compromise by having gear progression through infusions rather then new tiers and making those infusions primarily about resisting a game mechanic thats exclusive to this one place!

Fortuna.7259:

A treadmill just keeps you running. Can you craft yourself full Ascended yet so that you have nothing left to craft? No. Because you are meant to run rabbit, run!

come on this is really a weak argument. so if instead of releasing just a back and ring they released the whole set it wouldnt be a treadmill cause you can craft it all and be done. But because they’re releasing the set a few pieces at a time it magically becomes a treadmill because ohh you cant be done this month you can only finish the back and rings… there is still the reset of the set remaining! Also you conveniently didnt the answer the most crucial question why you personally want to have this Ascended gear? what is the reason you cant be happy with your existent exotic set?

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yes its called honesty. Since no one has a crystal ball you dont know what you’ll plan to do in 2, 3 years down the line, you dont even know what your players will want then. All he can say is the current plans and what he said is current plans are not to introduce a new tier. Personally I am more inclined to believe him with such an answer then if he had said oh dont worry this is the last tier ever we promise. You know what? the first answer hurt him because some people took one look at it and said see he didnt say never so they obviously plan to do it again even though he said no such thing.

If he had said never 1/2 this issue would be defused but would it be the absolute truth or just saying what we wanted to hear?

You just keep assuming the worst, and I dont fully blame you for it, they did take the first step down that road when they introduced ascended gear but lets not assume they’re going to take it all the way down that dark path or even worst that we’re already there just yet! on monday Chris Whiteside will be doing an AMA. I am sure all of these questions will be asked and I am sure people participating will force him to clarify a few things and we’ll get a clearer picture of what they plan to do!

Fortuna.7259:

Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Respectfully you’re twisting things to suit your argument. Yes a new tier was introduced, ascended armor which is 10 % better then exotic armor. so far they introduced the back and the rings. They are missing Head, chest, shoulders, arms, legs, feet, earnings, amulet

You’re calling it a treadmill only because they’re introducing the rest of the set in stages rather then all at one time? why?

To be a treadmill they have to keep releasing new tiers to grind making it essentially impossible to get to the end which is why its called a treadmill, adding a one time new tier is certainly a bad idea but doesnt make it a treadmill since once you craft it all you’re done there is nothing more to craft. Provided they dont release a new tier there is nothing different than what exotic armor was till now. But perhaps more then that there is really no need to have this armor set at all if you dont want to grind for it I honestly dont understand why people have such a hard time simply ignoring it! I am quite happy with a Rare MF set! so not only it doesnt have the best stats but also has the wrong stats for my build and I still have an easy time playing!

Fortuna.7259:

They don’t expect us to chase a new tier every 3 months. Every 4 months is just fine. More gear every month is fine if it isn’t a new “tier.” Seriously, you are grasping at straws if you want to believe that piece is telling you there won’t be a treadmill. It is also irrelevant to the fact that we have a gear treadmill at this very moment. The possibility that they might eventually turn it off doesn’t change what they will be doing until then.

Do you seriously believe he said we dont intend to have a new tier every 3 months because they intend to create a new tier ever 4 months instead? he said every 3 months simply because they introduced ascended gear on the 3rd month! he simply meant this was a one time thing but reserved the right of doing it again in the future nothing else!

I am sorry but a gear treadmill doesnt mean working towards an armor set. That would make even guild wars 1 a treadmill cause since the first day I started playing I was always build one armor set or another ! It would also make any game a treadmill since you’re always working towards some goal.
Truth is you dont even need an exotic set to enjoy the game much less an ascended set! To have a gear treadmill they need to keep regularly issuing new tiers making the previous tier absolute! Now in my opinion not even a rare set is absolute, you can do all content with it and be effective in WvW!

let me ask you something, why do you feel you have to have an ascended armor set specifically? what do you think you will be missing out on if you dont get one?

Fortuna.7259:

Yeah. And they don’t make grindy games either. Infusions have stats. Wake up.

True, but let me ask you something. do you eat food that gives you a modifier to say vitality?

because lets see if we consider this level 1 infusion:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Infusion

it gives you +5 vitality
takes a lot of effort to craft compared to say:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Curry_Pumpkin_Soup

which gives you +70 to vitality!

Regarding grindy, in my opinion people are making the game grindy! this is a perfect example, to me ascended gear is totally unneeded unless you plan to play FotM beyond level 10. As of right now there is just no content that requires Ascended gear, None! Yet people who dont really need it, want it and cant just walk away from it just because it has better stats! so they force themselves to play content they dont enjoy and that obviously makes the game feel grindy!

But the game doesnt impose this at all, I can tell you how gw2 played out for me. Started the game with my personal story and exploration, finished that started working on my crafting skills, got tailor and artificer to 400, crafted an exotic staff, crafted rare magic find set, crafting exotic chest and legs, saw the corrupted staff. oh looks cool, stopped crafting my exotic set focused on crafting the corrupted staff. In the meantime got sidetracked many times exploring / doing the amazing jumping puzzles in both events.

personally I dont feel that I am being disadvantaged in any way by not having yet finished my exotic gear set, much less by not having the ascended gear set! Play what you enjoy this game is not like other MMOs just cause you dont have the best stats you’re not going to loose / miss out on anything!

Melonbrew.9681:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Incorrect. The gear treadmill is already here. We have already been informed that Ascended gear and infusions will be rolled out pretty much as fast as we can reasonably be expected to grind them out. This is a gear treadmill.

As for “slippery slope” it doesn’t apply since we already fell down a cliff. What was done already was bad enough.

Can you please copy and link the exact place where they say they plan to add more TIERs of gear? cause the only thing close to that I know of is this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

“We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” which says exactly the opposite! granted they didnt promise to never do it again which is to be expected no company will ever commit categorically to anything but it certainly doesnt mean they will do it either!

This was nothing more then to introduce a little progression on the side for people who want this and thats the FotM dungeon and the progression will not be in the form of new better gear but new and better level of infusions to counteract higher levels of agony !

This is not yet a threadmill. You dont even need exotic armor to play anything in this game much less ascended gear!

This last part a little progression. Look whats happen with 2 bits of gear. Those bits of gear that Arenanet where saying never happens when advertising the game. People bought this game to jump into from time to time and not worry they get left behind like in other MMO’s. PvE and PvPer’s

Which I say again. Thats what they advertised. Been playing MMO’s long enough to know if this Little progression u call it is going to turn into more. If it brings in money it’s gonna happen end of.

I was so happy about this game. I have a family, I don’t have time to play MMO’s for 4-5 hours a night anymore. This game was my answer for still been able to play MMO’s and not get stuck at gated progression due to my real life commitments. But instead the MMO whiners and grinders got there way.

Shame on Arenanet

How exactly not having ascended armor leave you behind in anything?
I dont even have a full set of exotics and am not left behind in anything! and thats considering rare → exotic is a bigger statistical jump then exotic → to Ascended!

unless you intend to play FoTM level 10+ Ascended armor is completely optional!
and not only that for PvE I would argue not having it is better then having because it will make the game even more easy then it already is!

clydey.4963:

The fact that the ascended gear has any increase at all is the problem! So all those players who gathered exotics or spent money on the trade post get what now? A pat on the back and Anet pointing us to Fractal and saying “there’s the better gear, go get it”?

They could have easily added infusion onto the existing gear if they wanted “progression” in these dungeons alone, but by putting any increase in the gear they have already put in the fear that the gear treadmill is beginning.

What do you have that says this won’t happen again? Their word? Because it doesn’t seem like they need to keep it anymore, why stop now?

Maybe it won’t happen, maybe it will. The fact is they have gone against the very thing they said they didn’t want in their game and that trust is broken, gone, out the window, probably never getting it back.

You can spin it anyways you want, that it is a minicule change, that it doesn’t change anything, that it is the same game and you may be right. But they’ve still lied and gone back on their word and that’s all people need to decide not to support them anymore.

We don’t need you or Anet to prove that it’s not happening because it already is! You need to prove to us that it won’t happen again and trust me that’s a lot harder when we’ve already been lied to once!

lied how exactly? did they ever promise never to introduce any new tier gear after exotic? cause the only promise I know of is that content will not be gated by gear and no threadmill and while I dont like the increase in stats just like you it doesnt break any of those 2 promises!

Fortuna.7259:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Incorrect. The gear treadmill is already here. We have already been informed that Ascended gear and infusions will be rolled out pretty much as fast as we can reasonably be expected to grind them out. This is a gear treadmill.

As for “slippery slope” it doesn’t apply since we already fell down a cliff. What was done already was bad enough.

Can you please copy and link the exact place where they say they plan to add more TIERs of gear? cause the only thing close to that I know of is this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

“We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” which says exactly the opposite! granted they didnt promise to never do it again which is to be expected no company will ever commit categorically to anything but it certainly doesnt mean they will do it either!

This was nothing more then to introduce a little progression on the side for people who want this and thats the FotM dungeon and the progression will not be in the form of new better gear but new and better level of infusions to counteract higher levels of agony !

This is not yet a threadmill. You dont even need exotic armor to play anything in this game much less ascended gear!

“Tier” of gear is irrelevant. Why are people so caught up in the semantics and labeling? Oh it’s not grind it’s “gear progression”… that makes it totally different!!

Fact is: There is new gear coming out in phases. This new gear has higher stats. You have to grind for this gear to keep up with the rate of its introduction.

How is this not a gear treadmill? Please.

BTW the “not every 3 months” post at best says nothing. Exact opposite? Too funny.

I am sorry but you’re the one who decided coming out in phases means new better stats, What I and many others understood by that was now we got rings and back items, next phase we might get amulates and earings. The phase after that Chest and legs etc..

You might be right, dont have any way of knowing for sure but neither do you!

Of course it does! not every 3 months might not mean never but the next part you conviniently ommited especially: “that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” certainly means they dont intend to create a threadmill. If its still unclear perhaps this might be a bit more to the point:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

“we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach.”

If they do like you suggest and every phase they release new higher tier gear… Or well like you put it, same tier but higher stats, how would that not be an endless treadmill of gear thats always just out reach? I am still convinced the only progression they intend to do will be tied to infusions and thus only affect the dungeon and not the game at large!

obviously its still my personal theory, hopefully we’ll know more monday after the AMA

Fortuna.7259:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Incorrect. The gear treadmill is already here. We have already been informed that Ascended gear and infusions will be rolled out pretty much as fast as we can reasonably be expected to grind them out. This is a gear treadmill.

As for “slippery slope” it doesn’t apply since we already fell down a cliff. What was done already was bad enough.

Can you please copy and link the exact place where they say they plan to add more TIERs of gear? cause the only thing close to that I know of is this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

“We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” which says exactly the opposite! granted they didnt promise to never do it again which is to be expected no company will ever commit categorically to anything but it certainly doesnt mean they will do it either!

This was nothing more then to introduce a little progression on the side for people who want this and thats the FotM dungeon and the progression will not be in the form of new better gear but new and better level of infusions to counteract higher levels of agony !

This is not yet a threadmill. You dont even need exotic armor to play anything in this game much less ascended gear!

Moddo.7105:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Please atleast go and read Devs statements about the Asend gear before you feel need to educate us with your bits of wisdom.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

They are adding 2 tiers now. Legendary is a whole new tier of item stats. Before it was just a cool skin same stats. So Exotic is no longer end game tier, neither is Ascended .

You people really want to hate the game right? how is legendary a whole new tier of item stats now when its identical to Ascended? Legendary is a cool skin like before only it mirrors the higher new tier rather then old highest tier!

also nothing in that post implies there will be a new tier in the near future, they simply said back and ring are the first items and in the future they will introduce the rest and continue the FoTM progression through more infusions.

plasmacutter.2709:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fuz.5621:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not!

It is now.

No its not! I dont have any ascended armor, actually I dont even have a full set of exotics yet and thats gating what content for me exactly?

If I get a full ascended set does that mean I can no longer play say in queensdale because that content become absolete due to power creep? hmm nope still works.

Does it now require more time to reach max level? nope still one of the fastest MMO in which you reach Max Level

Are dynamic events no longer immersive story telling quests? nope they remain unchanged.

Is exploration no longer rewarding? well that didnt change either

Without a full set of ascended armor will I get destroyed in sPvP like it would happen in other MMOs? hmmm nope still everyone has the exact same armor in sPvP

Without a full set of ascended armor will I get destroyed in WvW? well I dont have a full set of exotics infact only 33% of my armor set is exotic the rest is rare yet my kill ratio in WvW is probably around 5:1 (as in I killed 5 people for every time I died)

so no, this change didnt change suddenly gw2 to become like any other MMO. 1 new tier alone doesnt create a gear grind and its entirely optional unless you want to take up FoTM seriously. Its mostly people perception that change! not saying it was a good change I dont agree with it either, I too believe ascended armor could be okey but should have had the same base stats as exotic armor but it changed nothing from what I love of this game! they simply added something I dont like nothing else!

I see, so people are NOT.. I reapeat.. NOT complaining about being in lions arch overflows.

They are NOT.. I repeat NOT complaining about progressively empty world zones where half the waypoints are perma-contested because the critical mass of players needed to defeat the world events is no longer there.

They are NOT.. I repeat NOT unable to get groups for the pre-15th-patch content such as explorables since the fractals have come out.

They are NOT.. I repeat NOT complaining about being told to bugger off and die because they’re not ascended level 10.

and that a 20% increase in stats, when applied to ALL gear rather than just two pieces as they are now will NOT.. i repeat NOT provide 20 trait points worth of boost which will effectively reduce the ability of people in non-ascended gear to get loot whenever you are present.

I’m starting to see shades of karl rove on fox news on 11/6/2012 as I ask you “is this just math you do to make yourself feel better?”

hey I was replying to someone who said this change made gw2 the same like every other MMO, I simply pointed out the things that in my opinion at least for me make the game different then most other MMOs and pointed out how this change didnt do anything to them, is any of what I said false?

And funny you bring out the subject of inaccuracies. lets say ascended gear was 20% better (which it isnt) how would factoring all pieces together somehow make it better then 20% ? if an ascended ring is 20% better and an ascended chest piece is 20% better etc.. it would make afull set of ascended items 20% better then a full set of exotic items and not more!

now back to your claim of 20%

This can be kinda tricky to calculate, if we take a ring that has absolute stats no percentages such as say Khilbron’s Phylactery or Lost Seal of Usoku this has a 103,68,68 point spread compared to an exotic ring with an exotic jewel that has 92,63,63 making it 9% better not 20% some rings however like say red ring of death have percentages. The ascended ring provides 8% critical damage while the exotic ring provides 6% taking into account 12 armor pieces and assuming no other critical damage bonuses this would give someone with an ascended armor 246% critical damage and someone with exotic to 222% critical damage which would make the ascended armor 10% better not 20% better.

That being said lets take a rare ring + rare jewel, that gives an 80,55,55 point spread makeing the exotic ring a whole 13% better then a rare ring. So there is a bigger gap between rare and exotic then there is between exotic and ascended gear yet Like I said I who run in rares have yet to find this problem of tagging mobs or getting DE rewards. Are you really sure there is the issue you thing there is? Cause I am unconvinced.

Please if you think any of my math is deciving or wrong in any way feel free to correct me !

plasmacutter.2709:

Veltoss.9135:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

It may be one gear now, but when all the QQers get those Ascended, they will complain more. What will Anet do then? Add another tier of item. This is how gear-treadmill happens. kitten like this happened alot of time on others mmo, and Im afraid it will happen on GW2 as well.

So you guys think it’s a good idea to make >huge< assumptions and complain non-stop about something that has not yet happened and may never happen? How is this helping anyone? How is this beneficial?

what “huge assumption?”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

That’s the director of ANet’s game design saying there will be legendaries in every slot…. yet another “tier”.

he bad call in my opinion was probably thinking that players like me who dont care about that sort of thing would simply ignore ascended armor cause we dont really need it…

That’s not true, actually. This game scores you on dynamic events and chance to get loot from a mob by your share of damage done. If you don’t have ascended gear they just nerfed your ability to receive rewards for your participation in the game by giving others an unfair advantage.

I am afraid you’re wrong. Loot from a mob is based on doing a minium amound of damage. If there was an issue like you’re suggesting certain classes would have it really bad. I run a condition based Necro. Most of my attacks start off really slow doing 62 dmg per second when adding condition damage bonuses while a warrior would do something like 600 damage per second using hundred blades without factoring in any bonuses whatsoever. Yet I still tag mobs even when warriors are around.

As for Dynamic events, well I am 66% geared in rare items yet I always get gold except in the few rare occations where I join in an event late! you’re over estimating how much difference ascended gear does I think if you think there will so much more damage that you’ll be cut out from rewards because of it!

Fuz.5621:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not!

It is now.

No its not! I dont have any ascended armor, actually I dont even have a full set of exotics yet and thats gating what content for me exactly?

If I get a full ascended set does that mean I can no longer play say in queensdale because that content become absolete due to power creep? hmm nope still works.

Does it now require more time to reach max level? nope still one of the fastest MMO in which you reach Max Level

Are dynamic events no longer immersive story telling quests? nope they remain unchanged.

Is exploration no longer rewarding? well that didnt change either

Without a full set of ascended armor will I get destroyed in sPvP like it would happen in other MMOs? hmmm nope still everyone has the exact same armor in sPvP

Without a full set of ascended armor will I get destroyed in WvW? well I dont have a full set of exotics infact only 33% of my armor set is exotic the rest is rare yet my kill ratio in WvW is probably around 5:1 (as in I killed 5 people for every time I died)

so no, this change didnt change suddenly gw2 to become like any other MMO. 1 new tier alone doesnt create a gear grind and its entirely optional unless you want to take up FoTM seriously. Its mostly people perception that change! not saying it was a good change I dont agree with it either, I too believe ascended armor could be okey but should have had the same base stats as exotic armor but it changed nothing from what I love of this game! they simply added something I dont like nothing else!

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not! Then you get statements like At max level there are only 2 zones to play in or to get everything in this game is a massive grind!

I bet one of the reasons why they created ascended armor / FoTM was because of such people who are now complaining about it saying it will deprive them of all the content they themselves chose to ignore anyway!

Then they made a bad call, because those people that are protesting now never asked for new tier of gear. Even those people that didn’t have anything to do (and those are not necessarily the same people – there are way more protesting now than were protesting before) asked mostly for new content. Level 80 zones, upgrade to lower level areas (so there’s more reason to go back to them), more skins, easier legendary options. Those that asked for new gear were a very, very tiny minority (about as minor as those that asked for the holy trinity). And most of those people already left the game anyway (and won’t come back).

They made a bad call for us who dont like this sort of thing but we’re not all the different types of players! I am closing in on 500 hours and havent even touched 1/2 the zones! yet some people felt they played all there is to play in 200 hours. Some people consider content only stuff that make them progress in some way and thats for whom this dungeon is primarily for. The bad call in my opinion was probably thinking that players like me who dont care about that sort of thing would simply ignore ascended armor cause we dont really need it to do any of the content but they understantimated that players just want the best items at any cost even if they dont really need them!

Hydrophidian.4319:

Galen Grey.4709:

If people issued a public appology each time something they work on doesnt work 100% as intended everyone would be busy appologizing 24/7

I’m sorry, but I find this to be a bit ridiculous.

This wasn’t a situation where there were just a couple of kinks. It was a mess. It was all sorts of broken from start to finish.

I tried to participate on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I was met with broken content each and every time. Due to this, there was practically nothing I was able to complete. This event was implemented in stunningly poor condition.

This is not a new studio, and this was not this team’s first rodeo. If something’s going to be only available for a (very) limited time, they should know by now that they have to make doubly-certain that it works.

The event was rolled out in an unplayable state, and a lot of time was wasted as a result. That is most assuredly something they should be apologizing for. And the lack of that apology has not gone unnoticed by me.

What you’re not considering is the lag / disconnects, even to some extent the missing phase 2 NPCs were all probably due to the sheer number of participants not because the events themselves were buggy!

The NPCs I am not so sure about, I suspect the problem with them disappearing was that they were never supposed to die, that they were supposed to go down to x health then stop taking damage but probably the huge amount of people attacking them at the same time + lag ended up dealing more then x damage at the same time resulting in their death before the cutoff point got reached!

in anycase true the result had a huge consiquence, as in many people cut off the game and the event itself largly unplayable but the only issue was arenanet inabbility to handle the load nothing else. Its like saying engineering building a plane but when the time comes to travel it turns out there is an issue with the wheels. end result everyone is grounded but you cant say the engineers did a really bad job they made a small mistake!

Not saying they shouldnt do better, obviously ideally it should be flawless just saying its not fair to say they messed up from start to finish when from their side they just didnt manage to handle one thing which is the load!

LordByron.8369:

Icas.3860:

On a side note, I’ve noticed a significant increase in activity on lower-level maps since Monday. .

i saw pink elephants in the sky trust me…..

Any proof?
Any statuistical evidence?

Well i think most of us have seen and heard low lvl areas are deserted…

There are many factors that come into play, bet activity in low level area changes drastrically from server to server. Competitive players the ones that say rushed to join the servers that were persived to have the best WvW groups will likely have more deserted low level zones because such players are more likely to spend their time farming the most rewarding content. They are also full which means no influx of new players.

There are other players like me who would avoid such servers like the plague because I just have a different play style and dont integrate well with that culture. I play the game for fun not to be the best! I am on piken square, the unofficial RP server for europe. I always have see lots of people running around in queensdale. Sometimes there like entire crowds! This week I didnt notice any increase but there are times when that seems to happen.

Bottom line no server is probably representative of a whole eitherway

GADefence.5634:

“On a side note, I’ve noticed a significant increase in activity on lower-level maps since Monday.”

That’s probably because all the free trial people bought the game.

“using your swamp example, set up the mall at the edge of the swamp is perfect ! its what I am saying people should say but instead people are saying the people in charge of building the mall are liars because they promised us a mall which they didnt manage to build (before even giving them a chance to do anything about it!)”

Actually, it’s more like the people who built the mall charging you 70$ to enter the mall saying there’s an observatory at the back that lets you look into the swamp only to discover that instead it’s an escalator that goes up and down.

Every mall has an escalator. I wouldn’t have payed 70$ to enter a mall with an escalator. Either build the observatory your already took my money and promising me was there, or give me my money back since you lied.

Only the observatory is there. I mean its not like just cause they added one single new tier suddenly the game changed from what it was before! Its true its not something we appriciated and was totally un-needed but it still didnt introduce the main problem of vertical progression at least so far! I dont know about you but my main problem with vertical progression is that you will hit a wall unless you keep up with that progression in such MMOs. You took it easy and dont have the best gear? well sorry this new area will be undoable for you and there is nothing you can do about it until you get that gear! None of that is in the game! even Exotics arent needed to play absolutely every single shred of content in the game and again that didnt change! So far its just fear that such a thing might happen nothing more!

For me personally, cant speak for everyone else, I havent even finished my full exotic set not because I dont play enough, because I could log on right now and finish it in less then 5mins, but rather because I dont feel I need to, in fact I am happier not doing it why? the game is already easy as is, more stats will make it even easier! As things stand right now the game for me is more enjoyable without ascended gear then if I had to have it! So having no ascended gear definitely doesnt make you hit a wall in any way!

GADefence.5634:

“I’m seeing too many posts about people’s upset feelings, conspiracy theories, and opinions and not enough actual constructive feedback.”

We all post constructive feedback. Our feedback is take it out. It is not our fault our feedback differs from yours.

It’s like if you wanted to build an observatory/mall in the middle of a swamp yet the swamp kept screwing up the foundation. Someone says the fix of “move the mall to solid ground, setup the observatory on the edge of the swamp” and the rest say that’s not constructive because it doesn’t fix the issue of setting up the mall/observatory combo in the swamp.

“Some people have long abandoned the concept of constructive critisism and openly embraced the lync mob mentality!”

Well, most people here feel what ANet did is the equivalent to selling us milk, delivering us orange juice, and telling us all sales are final on products so no refund. It’s kinda aggravating, is what I am getting at.

you’re wrong, the issue is not that your constructive critisism differs from ours, or well it doesnt differ from mine. I dont like that ascended gear has higher stats and you can see me saying that in the 10k+ threat in the first pages.

Its the way that critisism is being delivered that I have a problem with! using your swamp example, set up the mall at the edge of the swamp is perfect ! its what I am saying people should say but instead people are saying the people in charge of building the mall are liars because they promised us a mall which they didnt manage to build (before even giving them a chance to do anything about it!)

Like others said, if you dont like something by all means its important to state what you believe the problem is and offer recommendation where possible but what has happened here is light years away from that! Some people have long abandoned the concept of constructive critisism and openly embraced the lync mob mentality!

Sad thing is you’re only hurting the cause! do you honestly think Arenanet are more likely to listen to a post that says “arenanet are liars nothing they say can be trusted” as opposed to “I think the stats increase on ascended armor where a bad idea because in my opinion it makes people unhappy with having to grind for a new set of armor. I get what you’re trying to do but in my opinion you should keep the infusion mechanic just make the stats on ascended armor the same as exotics” ?

Think about it people, remember the time when the table was turned and people where claiming that GW2 is doomed because it doesnt have vertical progression? remember how people who took that statement too far were branded haters and their opinion dismissed by the community? How is this any different?

At end of the day people who dont know you personally can only judge someone geniuninly trying to improve the game from a hater who just wants the game to sink only based on what they write! Dont let yourself become that which you hated just so short ago! wording things correctly can go a long way and is in the best interest of absolutely everyone!

Zen.1740:

The best part about this clown circus game is the people who played this event picked up 2 or possibly more legendary precursors, costing 300+ gold each.

One hilarious joke after another. It’s like the TORtanic, it’s a gift that keeps on giving.

take it easy now, how many people do you know who got 2 precursors? Do you even know 1 person who got 3 or more?

Its not like everyone who took part got a precursor you had to be very lucky! In my whole guild only 1 dropped !

@ OP. Betrayed is defintiely the wrong word here, Arenanet didnt intent to cheat anyone much less betray anyone. Even an demanding an apology is taking things a bit too far imho. As far as I can tell the issues experianced were issues caused by the huge load caused by so many players taking part in the event. Thats not to say that they should just ignore the whole thing, they should strive to ensure it doesnt happen again which is exactly what they plan to do !

If people issued a public appology each time something they work on doesnt work 100% as intended everyone would be busy appologizing 24/7

Dont think it does. I think that just means tweaking difficulty as you level up

Mr Crazy Moose.5760:

Galen Grey.4709:

Rude players have nothing to do with FotM, the same thing could happen in any dungeon, in the open world and in WvW

The problem you mention is the player in question nothing else!

If he insulted you and used nasty slur as you said I hope you reported him. Its the only way we have to solve this problem!

Fractals of The Mists is set up in such a way that it encourages rude/antisocial playing.

Gearchecks, level checks, refusing to play with people on a lower difficulty and in some cases; refusing to play with certain professions.

This is going to get worse before it gets better.

Fractals of the mists is intended for people who want progression. I agree with you that such people generally have a certain mindset so yes I agree its most likely a place where you find more people who behave inappropriately. That being said most players didnt change from before the FotM so these rude players where still there playing other content and they still had the same mindset that you need certain gear or certain builds etc.. FotM didnt create them it attracted them!

There are plenty of other players who dont play FotM for its progression cause like us they dont care about that sort of thing! I would personally avoid groups with that attitude before we even start the encounter! I play the game for fun, such people tend to play it as if it were a job!

Rude players have nothing to do with FotM, the same thing could happen in any dungeon, in the open world and in WvW

The problem you mention is the player in question nothing else!

If he insulted you and used nasty slur as you said I hope you reported him. Its the only way we have to solve this problem!

Ignoring Ascended gear here as well. Got way more interesting stuff I want to do. Besides getting ascended gear would be a – for me. so far at least all pve with the exception of southern cove is way too easy as it is. Ascended gear would make my gaming experience worst not better!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Raine.1394:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

The issue hasn’t been overblown. The only thing I can suggest to help you understand the issue is to read the manifesto and the introduction of the Ascended gear piece side-by-side. If the non-sequitur doesn’t smack you in the face it’s probably best to just accept that some people get it rather than continuing to misrepresent the community’s reaction to the violation of the manifesto.

This reminds me of old, old Everquest and . . . hang on.

http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020315
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020612

Yeah, this happened before in a game I played. Though it was quite a bit of a different game than Guild Wars 2 is, and the gear treadmill was . . . significantly more pronounced even as the first content patch rolled out for that game too. Come to think of it, there also was a whole lot of bugged things in that game. Though they usually denied it was broken until it was fixed; that’s where a phrase crept into MMO player language: “Broken as intended”.

Do you really believe that every company copies what every other company does exactly? If that where so dont you think every single game would be exactly the same?

Just cause something went in one direction in one game doesnt mean it will be exactly the same in every other game thats starts from the same starting point!