Guild Wars 2

Personally I’m gonna stick with: “Hey guys, let’s boost the other currencies and make it so gold isn’t essentially the only currency that matters”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I put in effort to make 100 Gold within 5 minutes of using the TP, you want all players who put in the same effort in whatever they’re doing, to get same amount of Gold.

Yes, precisely.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This isn’t an argument for equality or fairness.

Lolwut. Yes it is.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This is Entitlement in its purest sense.

And entitlement is not automatically a bad thing.

Why don’t you explain to me, then, why equivalent effort should not be granted equivalent reward? Why is it fair for one person to get more than another person if they have put in equivalent work effort? If effort is the only bar we’re going by for rewards and such, then equivalent effort should lead to equivalent reward, otherwise effort is rendered meaningless as a measuring tool.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing.

If those are the bars for effort, then yes. This is exactly what I am saying. And there is nothing wrong with thinking this way.

Zaxares.5419:

I’m just pointing out that both sides are not inherently wrong; ANet has to walk a balancing act between making both sides happy.

The only thing I’m saying he’s wrong about is to say that rarity is the only thing that effects desire, which he is absolutely wrong about.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

False. You’re comparing different things. Flipping on the TP is mainly to turn profit. That type of “reward” is existing coin being transferred between players. Doing a Jumping Puzzle is a challenge that has a reward at the end. This type of “reward” generates coin and items that didn’t exist before, which add to the economy.

I’m comparing their effort, which is simply: “Was a serious attempt made. Was work put into it”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Plus, effort doing one is not equal to effort doing the other. Just as effort to get straight As in school is not equal to the effort of bench pressing 300 lbs.

Again, there is only one kind of effort. If you’re describing mainly differences, then you’re talking about skill sets and various skills. There is no such thing as different kinds of effort.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

By simplifying the distinction between the efforts of a TP player, with the efforts of a player just trying to kill the Shadow Behemoth, we back with the “Entitlement” argument. If a TP player spends 5 minutes making 100 Gold, then the player killing the Shadow Behemoth wants 100 Gold for his 5 minutes too.

And if in that five minutes, the SB slayer put in equivalent effort, then it’s fair to expect the same 100 gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A clear example of this would be for the staff Final Rest. It was so uber ultra rare, than it spawned a community of hunters to find it. Now that it drops so often, no one even bothers wielding it if they had one.

Do you really want to make this claim? Because I know at least one person that does in fact wear Final Rest, and I can deliver a screen shot to you tomorrow of them using said Final Rest (it would be tonight, but they’re not online) They don’t care about its rarity, and they never did. They only cared that it looked cool to them.

Rarity is not the only factor for desire. Stop trying to act like it is.

Wanze.8410:

I think people are just complaining that they cant afford items that are completely optional, be it skins or other high valued cosmetic items, exotic minis or convenience items, like permanent contracts.

But as i said, those are not required (expect asc gear) to enjoy all game content without disadvantages.

It’s also less fun to play the game without shinies, because for one, MMOs are essentially about obtaining shinies, and two, cosmetic items are one of the main features of at least this game, specifically.

And if we’re going to take the requirement route, and we do establish that none of these things are required, then gold beyond what’s needed to enjoy all game content isn’t required. And if that gold isn’t actually required, there’s nothing wrong with nerfing the tp or taking said gold from the rich, beyond what they need to enjoy game content.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Gold being the main currency is not a problem.

It is when it’s the only way to aquire anything and various activities pay out far different amounts.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

2) Everyone can gather enough Gold to get things they want. You can either put in efforts to get the Gold, or you can buy Gems and convert it. The only problem would be the players who don’t want to put in the efforts to make Gold. Vol gave some advice to help with this problem, so please read his posts.

I read Vol’s guide. Depending on how the rest of megaserver is being rolled out, that guide may become useless. It’s certainly taking a hit, what with schedules. It’s a decent guide, I will admit that.

As for effort. Effort according to who? You keep saying people need to put in effort to make gold, but then people put in all kinds of different effort based on what they’re doing and they’re skill level in it. Someone could do a jumping puzzle and put in just as much effort as someone flipping on the tp because that person has a harder time with jumping puzzles, but the person doing the jumping puzzle is rewarded far less at the end of the day despite putting in equivalent effort.

If effort is to be a measuring stick, then equivalent effort has to give equivalent reward across the board. Otherwise effort is meaningless.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

3) Low drop rates / RNG = rarity. Rarity is not a problem. The individual player’s needs and desires are the problem. They want the best rewards here and now, but don’t understand that if you make something easily obtainable, the item is no longer rare and desired.

The only change is that the item is no longer rare. Rarity does not dictate desire for every person. Treating it as Rarity = Desire is folly at best.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

All that can be done is speculation, because the necessary information is being kept away from our hands. You say to provide proof, but proof can’t be provided unless all information is made available. Otherwise you ask the impossible.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem.

Problem: Gold is essentially the only currency that matters in the game.
Problem: Not everyone can gather enough gold for the things they want.
Problem: Low drop rates and low RNG make the game feel unrewarding, leading people to rely on farms for gold, because gold can be used to bypass low drop rates and low RNG

John Smith.4610:

I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

I’m not surprised. You’re also the guy that thought 10s of thousands of candy corn was a perfectly legitimate and fun to achieve price point for a mini pet and a 20-slot bag. And if you aren’t that guy, then slap whoever was.

John Smith.4610:

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.

So then do like Nike suggested several pages ago: Give us an updated graph of wealth distribution in the playerbase. End the speculation by giving everyone information that can be used. Like a graph. But don’t just say “I don’t see a problem. My metrics show no problem.”

As an old commercial once said: “Show me the Carfax”

Edit: Nike’s quote for great justice

Nike.2631:

John Smith.4610:

I do think it’s fair to say though that in many countries there is some unrest with the level of political power being wielded by smaller groups (note I’m making 0 value judgement on the concept itself, but it’s fair to say the idea exists) and this idea can sometimes be extended to an argument of wealth disparity. That unrest may be being projected into this environment, but I still see no evidence of that being an issue in GW2.

Really? Then your reluctance to publish a second distribution of wealth chart like the one released near launch makes no sense .

I think the main thing keeping the vast gulf between rich and average denizens of Tyria from boiling over into widespread fury is the systematically enforced ignorance of how bad it’s gotten.

If you really think it’s not a big deal, them more info is good, right? Post a current chart and get a real feel for whether it matters to people.

Essence Snow.3194:

Oh sry, I must have meshed the two. My apologies.

It’s cool, I think a few people are starting to do that.

So, it’s a new page. Pay attention everyone, this was the ultimate cut of my jib.

Everything in the game, sans gemstore items, becomes available through all currently implemented currencies (except for those being phased out on the 15th).

What this means: Laurels, Karma, Tokens, etc. get brought up to the same level as gold in terms of the items available. This means the ability to purchase exotic gear directly with laurels, or a 20-slot bag with dungeon tokens.

The point is to make gold just another currency, rather than what amounts to the -only- currency. With this idea, there is no nerfing of the TP or the amount of money flippers/tp barons/whatever they wanna call themselves can make.

Aidan Savage.2078:

The main issue is that what would define the relation of x karma = y gold? The same “sooper pooper sekret 4moola” used to define hold much gold a gem is worth?

Basically, whatever ANet sets it to be. As an example, we already have a standard for what exotic gear is worth in karma. 42k per piece, iirc.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Beyond that, there are already ways to convert karma into gold using the MF by purchasing karma equipment and then forging them into salvageable gear. This can be highly profitable because this is one of the methods you can use to “farm” linen scraps.

My idea doesn’t turn karma into gold. That’s the whole point. Aside from that, the MF is the poster child of the crap shoot. Relying on the MF for something like that is just…blech.

Edit: Holy kitten, crap isn’t censored.

Essence Snow.3194:

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

Little confused. What do you mean when you say karma being available for trade? As in, being able to trade to vendors? Because there would be no issue there. Karma would have a fixed price. If you mean using karma on the TP, that’s Wanze’s idea.

Still thinking that the best “nerf” is to just make gold less important by bringing other currencies up to the level of gold.

Edit: Aaaaaaand, ninja’d by Schizo, essentially. Dat timing.

videoboy.4162:

Jaric.5679:

That’s precisely what I thought, Gene and Risa. This is not ‘many of the town clothes’, as videoboy is stating.

I only repeated what Curtis said. You’re more than welcome to actually read this thread and see his posts.

I really shouldn’t have bothered looking this up for you:

https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/45944258-Town-Clothes

2.Most pieces sold separately, such as the Fuzzy Animal Hats or Phantom Hood, will become armor skins for the appropriate slot, usable by a character that wears armor of any type.

It’s not just head pieces.

The problem is that it was also stated that every single item that was discontinued will be turning into a tonic. Which is…basically every single item that isn’t head slot items, aside from the pirate and chef outfit, which are becoming single piece outfits.

Wanze.8410:

They ARE adding rewards constantly that arent obtainable by just gold, which in my eyes devalues the dependance on gold every time, even though a little.

Not at a meaningful rate or magnitude, however.

Wanze.8410:

But no matter, how much easier you make it to obtain in demand items with earned currency other than gold, the TP will still be there. And as long as the TP is there in its current state, I will be able to make more gold on it than other players through other means.

Which become absolutely meaningless the moment items become actually obtainable through other means. The only reason this is a problem is because the trading post is essentially the -only- effective method of obtaining anything, cheap or expensive. And that becomes compounded by how little everything else in game pays out compared to just sitting at the tp.

But when you boost all the other currencies to be on par with gold, it doesn’t matter how much gold you amass to use on the TP, because other viable options outside gold and the TP will then exist. The current problem is that there aren’t other viable options. Laurels are very limited in what you can purchase, as is karma. And most of the things you can purchase with them are things that people just wind up using in an attempt to make gold, because gold has been made into the only worthwhile currency.

Wanze.8410:

In my eyes it wont matter how much rewards Anet introduces that are unobtainable by playing the TP, people who complain about my income now, will keep complaining.

Why? The main arguments when it comes to that is that, well, because you (general you) flip, you gain access to essentially everything the game has to offer despite not really taking part in activities and such, because gold drives everything in this game. But if all currencies drive everything in the game, gold simply becomes a preferred method for those who…prefer it.

Also, the point isn’t to make things unobtainable via the TP. The point is to bring everything else up to a rate similar to the TP (in my suggestion at least). The idea isn’t to render the TP and gold useless. Merely remove the stranglehold it has on the game.

Wanze.8410:

So thats why i think your suggestion was kinda off topic because it didnt suggest anything on how to effectively nerf possible profits on the tp and i think thats what we are trying to do here.

That strikes me as a futile effort since anything that nerfs the tp even slightly is being called an unfair punishment.

Wanze.8410:

Just a wild idea:

What if you could pay on the TP with other currencies than gold?
Or lets just make a totally seperate TP with karma as currency.
It would definately give regular players a higher “income” through regular events.
But it would open up a way for TP players to earn karma, which I am not sure, is good or bad.

What would TP players do with karma, though?

Like, don’t get me wrong, this seems like a workable idea, I’m just not sure it would…actually work? Not from a problematic standpoint, though. I see no problems arising from this. It’s just, there’s not much to do with karma, so would people actually do a “karma only” trading post?

Using karma as an alternate currency, however, I do think would work. ANet would just need to set a number as to how much karma is equivalent to a gold, and go from there.

Schizo.1375:

But if we implemented new ways of obtaining items without spending gold, this time gets reduced as people are saving more gold. This also gets reduced further by people able to convert other currencies such as karma, relics, or laurels into gold. I do think this would be serious problem as the money that Anet makes off this is based on the player’s reliance on gold.

For sake of post length, I cut a bunch of your earlier stuff mainly because I am actually in agreement. I do want to touch upon this part, however, as I see what you mean, but I think I may have (or at least I certainly intended and may have just forgotten to put it in the post) covered this as well.

To prevent any problems, the, I guess we’ll call them “extra” items for now, that would be added to the various merchants would most likely need to be account bound on purchase. Crafting materials could remain safely unbound, imo, since that’s what can currently happen with laurels and the mat bags anyway. But any full item or skin would need to be bound on purchase I think.

I also don’t think binding the purchase would be that bad, either, since the idea is that the player is going to this other vendor to obtain those items for the sake of having those items. Basically, in my head, it would work like how karma armor already works. You can’t salvage it or vend it or tp it, but you can mystic forge it.

This should also help avoid inflation problems since the items in question cannot be traded in for direct gold. Allowing them to be traded on the tp could theoretically still be an option though if all we’re worried about is inflation. I’m not sure on that last part. But generally, binding of some form would need to be implemented. The idea is that you’re just trying to achieve a specific item with a currency other than gold, so there’s at least no need to make any of it directly vendor-able.

The general hope, like you’ve noticed, is that the idea doesn’t render the TP pointless. Rather it just opens up other paths. So if someone is good at karma gathering, they can use karma, laurel collectors can use laurels, and TP…ers(?) can continue to utilize gold. There’s other currencies, too, of course, but you get the gist.

Schizo.1375:

Now, all that being said I am thinking about ways to improve your idea. But I don’t post ideas unless I’ve considered it very carefully. Also it’s late for me and I don’t make such decisions so late at night and so far from morning. So I am not just saying no to your idea, I am trying to develop a suggestion of my own based off of yours.

And that is something that, despite my earlier posts (which mostly don’t exist anymore, anyway), I do in fact appreciate.

But yeah, given the systems in place, I think the only workable option is to bind the items purchased via the other currencies. Which, again, in my opinion at least is no real love lost, though having them be trade-able would still certainly be nice. Otherwise, I can’t think of anything that wouldn’t require essentially building from scratch.

The only example given thus far for a town clothes item being turned into an armor slot item is in the case of head-slot items.

Schizo.1375:

Thank you for at least providing suggestions! Really appreciate this.

Other suggestions were provided. It’s just that everyone on the “opposing” side said no. Now don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with disagreeing or saying “no, that won’t work because x, y, zed”.

But it’s rather disingenuous to act like suggestions haven’t been raised til now.

On a different note, there are at least a few people that have agreed with the basic premise of the “nerf the tp” crowd for the sake of discussion. So, to continue that train of thought, for the sake of discussion: Instead of continually demanding suggestions of us, would those people consider maybe providing their own suggestions as well? I mean, it’s easy to just say “no that won’t work” to a suggestion. Why don’t you give us something to work with so actual discourse can occur?

To expand on that, to everyone who just flat out disagrees: What would it take for you to agree? That is: What changes would you find reasonable?

Please keep in mind though for this exercise: Keeping the status quo is not a valid suggestion. The idea is to find potential change that allows all parties to win on some level.

(On a different, different note: Thank you for at least acknowledging the existence of my suggestion, Schizo. Can I say how funny I find it that so many other people have gone on and on about how the “anti tp” crowd need to levy suggestions, and yet when one is brought forward, it gets ignored by all but yourself.)

Schizo.1375:

Now the problem with reducing the reliance on gold is that it, inadvertently, does affect the gem shop and converting gems to gold. Increasing drop rates of items means people get what they want without needing large amounts of gold which is good. But then what do people spend their gold on? If people aren’t spending gold for the items they need, they are saving more and more of it. This makes it easier to buy gems with gold and affects Anet’s profits.

I don’t believe this would be a problem simply because as it stands, flipping is miles above everything else in terms of a player obtaining gold. Events, etc. hardly pay out, and they’re about to take another nerf because of the change to armor repairs.

Gems are currently what? 9-10 gold for 100, right? Even with the best farming and dungeon running stratagems, that still takes a good while to get towards the general 800 gem price that everything tends to cost. Plus, in my scenario, the TP hasn’t been nerfed. People who have gold obtaining methods that pay out will still undoubtedly use the TP because gold is the main currency that they will use.

Remember, all that my scenario (sans the “if all else fails”) does is open up other currency routes for those players that can’t utilize the gold route. They won’t be making any more gold than they already do. Even if they start turning all their gold into gems, the rate will be so slow that it shouldn’t cause any more problems than tp flippers gathering the masses of gold that they do and turning that into gems.

Since removing more gold from the rich or bringing their ability to make gold in line with everyone else is “punishment” no matter what is suggested, how about a different suggestion?

How about we reduce reliance on the TP? As it stands, due to abysmally low drop rates, unkind RNG, and practically everything being based around gold, the TP is the only way to get anywhere.

So, the goal is to in some way equalize all time and efforts to allow people to be rewarded for the things they like to do. So….

-Leave gemstore products as they are, requiring either money or gold to gem (this leaves ANet’s profits alone)
-Make available to every karma and laurel merchant those items which are not currently available, including other types of Exotic and Ascended gear
-At minimum, make all types of Ascended Gear purchasable with fractal relics (or whatever they’re called), if not also through things like karma
-Alternatively, or added onto this, add reward tracks like what PVP seems to be getting. These tracks would require certain and/or X amount of Y (where Y is events, hearts, etc.) Choose your track, choose your reward, go from there.
-Actually implement the fracking Precursor hunt

-To prevent the TP from becoming too devalued, items and skins obtained in these fashions will come with some type of binding. I don’t know if anything would need to be done about salvaging.
-If all else fails, just increase drop rates and reduce RNG at some level

If nerfing the trading post is unacceptable, then the only other option is to reduce how much a player has to rely on gold to be able to effectively get the things they want to get. That means things like reward tracks/token systems/buffing other currencies that already exist in the game.

So long as the time and effort is balanced out (which would no doubt require testing), then people will choose whatever system they want to. Flippers will still get their potential massive profits. It’s just that people will no longer be chained to needing the TP. It will be 100% optional because other avenues will actually exist that allow people to reach their end goal.

KarateKid.5648:

No – if you haven’t picked up on it, these are the people in real life who make these same ridiculous arguments. They’d be ecstatic if tomorrow, Anet announced all gear will be Anet’s property, will be nerfed to the average of all their respective stats, and doled out as Anet sees fit.

Art imitates life.

So that makes you the guys who in real life go on about hard work and success, but when anyone dares mention increasing minimum wage, throw a fit, because god forbid the unwashed masses make money.

Sounds about right.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then you are ignoring the efforts that those of us have put in to learn the market and those who have put in the effort to farm and acquired more gold than the rest.

And you ignore the efforts of those running the events, slaying the bosses, doing the quests, and playing the actual game by keeping rewards so unrewarding, while TP flippers who are playing a glorified market simulator get to make far more gold. If the efforts of farmers and flippers matter, than the efforts of people who actually play the kitten game matter as well, and they should be rewarded just as much, if not more so, since they’re actually playing the game.

So long as you ignore the efforts of everyone but flippers, I will gladly ignore the efforts of flippers. Especially if the game becomes more fun and welcoming by ignoring those efforts.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Those who have worked harder in the game deserve to stay ahead!

Flippers deserve nothing when they don’t even play the game.

DarkSpirit.7046:

There is not much relaxation for me, I am taking on two jobs so that my family and I can get a better life and so that I can improve myself by learning new skills even though I am almost fifty years old.

And you want more work. So get another job. Stop trying to turn a game into a job. Stop trying to make a game mimic a job. Stop trying to take away other people’s relaxation just because you don’t have room for it.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Except for a few exceptions, there are mainly 2 types of people that I know. Those who work hard for their dreams and those who are too lazy to work for what they want.

And except for a few exceptions, I know various types of people who can’t be placed into such shallow, old-world categories that completely ignore the nuances of people and the modern world.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The latter usually ask for handouts from others and from the government because they can’t rely on themselves. In this case, the government in the game being ArenaNet.

And this is a game. So what if people ask for or are given handouts? This isn’t the real world. There is no need to treat it as such.

DarkSpirit.7046:

First of all, if ArenaNet is not receiving extra payments from us as you have proposed getting rid of gems, then you can’t expect them to keep as many staff employed to work on the game as they have now. This would include fewer artists and developers.
And there would be fewer incentives for them to come up with new and innovative armor.

They barely come up with new and innovative armors as it is. The few they do? Right into the gem shop! So, frankly? No love lost.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Furthermore, since everyone would be getting the SAME set of armor for free

No, everyone would be getting every set of armor that currently exists in the game. But you won’t acknowledge that because it means you have to stop using your guilt by association to make prison and communist comparisons for the sake of the negative tones those things evoke.

Keep going though. You’re making Rush Limbaugh proud. He’ll love you, yet.

DarkSpirit.7046:

in fact, such behavior should be encouraged because not enough people have been using their brains or have the motivation to learn new and useful skills for themselves nowadays. They rather fry their minds with brainless forms of entertainment, wasting their time away.

It’s called wanting to relax after being at work and slaving away at a desk/stove/fryer/wood cutting machine/insert profession here. It’s called downtime. It’s what games and movies are for.

You want more work? Go pick up extra jobs. Don’t turn our games into jobs for your bullcrap laden, romanticized, workaholic ideals.

DarkSpirit.7046:

I prefer to live in a world (virtual or otherwise) that rewards smarts and hard work, not a socialistic world where everybody is treated equally no matter how much they work.

The world you prefer to live in is rife with poverty and suffering. Good to know you obviously support poverty and suffering. (See? I can use guilt by association, too)

Schizo.1375:

An item’s value is not about work and effort. An item’s value is what someone is willing to pay for it.

Then there’s nothing wrong with just handing them out. Glad we agree.

Schizo.1375:

Wrong. No one needs ascended gear. Exotic is the only lvl 80 gear that anyone every needs. If you compare the stats between exotic and ascended the difference is so insignificant that character build and play skill are more deciding factors. Ascended gear is just a end game goal for people who like those sorts of things. Its meant to be the best level in name only, a goal to strive for. If you don’t want to get it don’t get it and you can still be better than those who do.

Does Ascended have better stats than Exotic, yes or no? (The answer is yes)
Does that mean Ascended is BiS, yes or no? (Again, the answer is yes)
Did a dev state that by level 80, everyone, and that includes casual players, should have BiS gear, yes or no? (Yet again, the answer is yes)

Your technicalities are meaningless. Ascended is BiS, end of story. It should be easily obtained by everyone.

Schizo.1375:

And your devaluoing of legendaries only proves my point.

I have devalued nothing. If work and effort are the defining characteristics for the value and prestige of Legendaries, then they currently have neither value nor prestige because all of the work and effort can be completely bypassed by using a credit card to get a Legendary off the TP.

If work and effort are to be defining characteristics for the value of an item, that item cannot be sellable on the TP, or gems bought with money cannot be turned into gold, because it renders the ideas of work and effort meaningless.

Schizo.1375:

Because every one would be running around with legendaries and ascended gear because it is now worthless.

Everyone should be running around in ascended gear, anyway. BiS gear is supposed to be easily obtainable so that everyone, by level 80, has BiS gear. As for Legendaries? Not everyone likes their looks, so they’d skin over those with something they do like.

As for their worth? The only worth people ever talk about with Legendaries is prestige, and well, we all know just how prestigious Legendaries are. (hint: the answer is not very)

tolunart.2095:

On a more serious note: different people find different kinds of activities fun. You don’t get to declare what is “fun” for anyone but yourself.

So then tell me how collecting 10s of thousands of candy corn is fun. Make an argument for how that can be fun.

tolunart.2095:

It would also put JS out of a job, and we can’t have that, can we?

Sure we can. So far as I see it, he hasn’t done anything to actually facilitate fun in this game.

Or would you like to try and make an argument for how fun it must be to collect the ten thousands of candy corn for the halloween mini or pail?

DarkSpirit.7046:

If work is not required, then there would no such thing as gold or gems or loot and everybody would just be handed out the same stuff from ArenaNet.

I see no problem with this.

DarkSpirit.7046:

If you want to earn as much gold as the rest of the players that you see, then pick up your lazy kitten and work for it!

If work is required, then it isn’t a game. It’s just another job.

chemiclord.3978:

So, yeah… I’m sticking my oar in and noting how pointless it is. I’m sorry you don’t like it.

It’s amazing how well you missed the point of what I was saying.

I mean, you’re not…lost to the irony (?) of what you’re doing…are you?

chemiclord.3978:

Buddy, I am all for making your voice heard. I am all for demanding a company explain themselves.

No, you clearly are not. Except for a short while there, from the beginning, your stance has been: “Everyone has said their piece so shut up and stop posting, this thread is pointless, it will only bring rage.”

But you know what? Aside from myself, arguably at this point, it really hasn’t. It’s still been productive, and more than that, it’s kept this matter in the limelight by remaining active, completely with a red stamp showing dev activity within, even if that activity isn’t what people are hoping for.

It’s got all the bells and whistles that say “Hey, keep looking at me!”

At least until a mod cans it. But you aren’t a mod, so stop trying to act like one. Stop trying to get people to stop posting. You think the thread has run its course, and that’s fine. You’re entitled to that opinion.

So stop posting here.

But there comes a point where protesting and complaining stop being productive.

I disagree, and I think you do, too, since you continue to protest and complain that people need to stop posting and just leave the game, despite nobody heeding your advice.

So, in a similar question to yourself. How many times does everyone here have to keep up with their posts before you say “Fine. Goodbye.” ?

nibblesalil.3561:

you know anet do not owe you an answer ……… they dont even need to make you understand why they did what they did again they do not owe you anything

We paid for the game, we paid for the town clothing items. We are customers. They kitten well owe us better and less vague answers than what have been thrown out.

I am really getting sick of the video game industry getting a free pass for crap like this that would never fly in any other business in any other industry.

The worst part is when people like you defend it, claiming answers aren’t owed despite the fact people have paid for these products.

chemiclord.3978:

The point is there aren’t GOING to be “town clothes” any longer. They will either be one-piece “outfits” or armor skins.

There will not be mix-and-match town clothes. Full stop. Arena.net has not moved from their original position. They will not change their mind.

If that breaks the game for you, it is time to walk away.

Oh goody, you’re back to your non-understanding, cold shoulder, completely useless self.

And here I thought maybe you had changed for the better.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Narthexia.1836:

will there be individual mix and match pieces in future releases? Or will they all be complete sets?

We will continue to release mix and match armor skin pieces

That’s great and all for armor. But what about in the case of items that would be considered “town clothing”?

Because you keep going on about how much more customization this is going to bring, but you haven’t actually provided much proof seeing as outfits are becoming “one and done”, and discontinued items are becoming tonics.

What is the future of town-like clothing? Is it outfits, or separate item skins? How is this going down, ultimately?

Nike.2631:

Hey, my acceptance level has nothing to do with it.

It does when you actively defend withholding information that can improve relations. I get that you don’t want to see ANet raked over the coals, but you can’t save them from that.

Only ANet can save ANet from ninjas. (Though the only way to not get caught by ninjas is to set yourself on fire, soooo)

And maybe it should. Just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet like something a whole bunch doesn’t mean its a single digit priority for a three million player game. Just saying.

And just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet think it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list. If anything, considering the game is based around cosmetics, I would say that something involving cosmetics is deserving of some kind of priority…

Nike.2631:

Given that Devs cant’ even fart without it being called “a promise”, It’s been my experience than when an activity is gonna fall somewhere around 60th on the “things to do list” they try not to talk about it out loud.

Serious as a heart attack, if they said “ok, keep your outfits until we can fix up each of these pieces to individually work with all three armor types” There would be people complaining that their favorite piece isn’t ready yet BEFORE THE PATCH EVEN HIT.

There are already people complaining and there will still be people complaining when the patch goes live, without this information (going with the assumption it’s true and not just you being hopeful). Withholding important information like that isn’t doing them any favors.

“Customers will still be mad because other reasons!” is not a valid reason to withhold information that can drastically improve relations. I would appreciate it if you and others would stop trying to use “complaints” as some kind of justification for a company to be silent about issues that they really have no reason being silent on.

Complaining happens no matter what. I think it’s time you accepted that and stopped trying to use it as justification for complete silence that literally helps no one.

Furthermore, in regards to something like that being “60th on the things to do list”. Well…then maybe it shouldn’t be 60th on the list. Just saying.

Edit: Just thought of a question you might ask, so want to try and preempt it. Obviously, if complaining happens no matter what, a question that pops up is: “Why even bother, then? May as well stay silent since kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t”.

The reason is that it changes the nature of the complaining. You go from complaining that is valid and that you shouldn’t be ignoring because of the trust issues it causes to complaining that is, for lack of a better word, inconsequential and ignorable, because it’s just people venting. It’s a subtle difference, yes, but one that most businesses would prefer over this current mess, I would think.

Nike.2631:

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

If your conclusion were anywhere near the truth of the matter, then don’t you think ANet would have already said as much since that would drastically change the outlook on this new system?

Um, I was under the impression that people ran the champ trains for easy monthly credit/easy bloodstone/easy mats, armor, items, rather than the raw gold, which always seemed on the small side, anyway.

Did I miss something?

nGumball.1283:

We have enough haters in the forums btw, just saying.

We have enough white knights in the forums btw, just saying.

A dream come true. A change I can truly applaud, though more information on how transmutation charges will work is severely needed.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then why didn’t you stop them then? It is always convenient to say this after I have done all the work.

I can no more stop them from going on about P2W than I can stop you from going on about P2W, clearly.

I don’t…I don’t understand what you’re expecting from me, exactly? I’ve said that the thread wasn’t about P2W. I’ve brought up arguments other than P2W. I in fact, beat you to it, because I posted in this thing called the “past” (you may have heard of it). You continually ignored those arguments and latched onto the P2W ones.

Do I need to come to your house and hold your head and directionally steer your eyes to the non-P2W arguments?

And the real world doesn’t involve money?

What? I quoted something about champ bags and suddenly you’re going on about the real world? I…what?

The specific analogy I quoted was about champ bags, which are in an in game phenomena. Nothing in that quoted section had anything to do with real life, aside from the real life part of unlimited tools involving money. Do you even remember what you’re talking about at this point?

Unless the real world changed and I can go to work, take out my boss, and a loot bag now drops as their corpse magically fades away? And if that’s the case, why did nobody inform me that reality was that crazy?

Hell, my boss is lucky I like her and thinks she’s cool. It means I won’t be attacking her weak point for massive damage.

ArenaNet is free to reintroduce the regular unlimited tool as they have different animation. Perhaps some users would still prefer the animations of the older tools.

And this just misses the point entirely of what I was talking about, there. In fact, the rest of your post just misses the point. Missing the point is all you seem to do. You can’t even keep your own stuff straight, talking about real life when the quote was in regards to champ bags, and…I’m just confused at this point.

I don’t get you. I don’t even get what you personally are arguing anymore. Much less why you are, since you think this thread is useless or whatever.

Mtpellion I get. I don’t agree with them, but I get what they’re saying and where they’re coming from. But you are a kittening enigma.

DarkSpirit.7046:

And by responding just at the time when I have shut all the P2W complainers up, just sounded hypocritical to me, especially if you claim to not be supporting their P2W argument.

>Implying you successfully did anything or were the reason for anything at all. When our posts are an hour apart at most. And it was already 10 PM on the West Coast, and Midnight on the East Coast.

And this just proves that you really don’t have reading comprehension. Because how can I be defending P2W when what my post said was that one of the biggest problems was that people like yourself were continuing to latch onto the P2W arguments which weren’t at all important.

Thus the quip about mtpellion doing unlike yourself, and actually having the decency to acknowledge that there were arguments aside from P2W. Which he did. Not in a fashion I would have liked. But by god, he/she is at least a decent enough person to understand those other arguments even exist and are a thing.

DarkSpirit.7046:

It is like saying, I farmed hard for champion bags for the past 2 months and I would be against them adding better items into the bags right now. That kind of argument just sounds very selfish and not good for the gaming population as a whole.

That analogy doesn’t fit at all because it ignores the part where the unlimited tools involve money. Also that part where ANet reintroduced the regular unlimited tools and then a week later brought out one that is better than them.

It also ignores the part where they would have wound up with less sales, because people would just continually sit, waiting for the next best tool. Why get the one that drops sprockets when you can get one that’s even better than that? One that drops sprockets AND cake (or whatever item you wish, the items being dropped are frankly, unimportant to the argument)

It was a form of cash shop vertical progression, among other things. It wasn’t cool, and the game is better for it not happening again with the thresher.

If your big complaint is that cashshop items in this game aren’t worth the money, there’s a very simple solution: Petition to have ANet lower the gem prices for items.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The P2W arguments were so obviously flawed that it was my pleasure to take them apart since nobody else did.

So we’re going to ignore everyone else’s posts that came before you showed up late to the party?

Okay, chief. Whatever you say. You’re the hero of the day or whatever. Release the party balloons and confetti and the clown from the rafters.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The original argument also doesn’t make much sense as there are many cases of improved offerings in the real world.

And times have changed and many businesses now allow you to upgrade to the newest thing at reduced costs by trading in the old, especially when that old item in question gets outdated only a week later.

You and ANet need to get with the times, clearly.

DarkSpirit.7046:

If you think that those who accused ArenaNet of being P2W were wrong then why did you not respond until now?

I bleeding responded in the original thread by Vol, the one that either I or someone else (I honestly forget at this point) posted after Vol’s got closed, and this one as well, back when the watchwork pick was a thing and the actual storm or whatever you want to call it was brewing.

The only one late to the kittening party is yourself. By two weeks. And yet you felt the need to post here despite thinking that the thread was unnecessary.

DarkSpirit.7046:

So I don’t think you are any better than those who claimed ArenaNet to be P2W since you have allowed the discussion to degenerate into such wrongful accusations in the first place.

I have stated time and again, now, and back then, that it was never about sprockets. That it was never about P2W. I have stated multiple times that it was about things like precedent, making the older picks obsolete, all that other stuff that was brought up.

The only ones ignoring those arguments are yourself and the people like you who see someone else say P2W and then you latch on to it and steer everything toward that, refusing to let go and ignore those arguments and instead engage arguments that aren’t about P2W.

It’s not my fault that you’re literally fixated on P2W and P2W alone.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Are you saying that watchwork pick is such a big problem in the game right now that this old thread has to stick around forever?

This thread was good and dead for over two weeks until people decided to bump it and mock the people who were against the pick, with all their: “LOOK AT MY WINNING WITH THESE SPROCKETS, GUYS HUR HUR HUR !!!oneoneone”

Furthermore, if you think the thread needs to die and is so unnecessary, why the hell have you been posting in it, thus bumping it up back to the top?

And even further than that furthermore: What in the bleeding hell does any of what you just posted have anything to do with what I posted, at all?

Clearly you have yet to take those reading comprehension courses. I told you: They’re next door to those elementary math courses.

DarkSpirit.7046:

People who complained against the watchwork pick are just too stupid to perform elementary school math.

And you’re too stupid too actually comprehend what you read, so hey, good for you. You have something in common with the people who can’t perform elementary school math.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Besides, this thread is all about claiming that the watchwork pick is P2W because it returns more gold, in the form of sprockets, than you put into buying the pick itself.

ITT: Yet another person that hasn’t actually paid any attention to the thread as a whole and has instead latched onto sprockets and P2W.

Christ, at least mtpellion had the decency to actually acknowledge that only a subset of people within the thread were actually saying anything about P2W. Then again, he, unlike yourself, actually has elementary reading comprehension.

Maybe you should consider some classes next door to the elementary math students.

mtpelion.4562:

Allow me to summarize your argument: Germany had a depression. Germany invaded Poland. Kenya is having a depression. I therefore conclude that without a doubt, Kenya is going to invade Poland.

My argument would be more akin to: Germany had a depression and a host of sociological issues, as well as an insane tyrant for a leader, and a decently sized military. Germany invaded Poland.

Kenya is having a depression and a host of sociological issues, as well as an insane tyrant for a leader, and a decent sized military (it doesn’t, so far as I know, but that’s beside the point of the analogy). I therefore conclude that Kenya is very likely to invade a sovereign nation in a manner similar to how Germany invaded Poland unless a careful eye is kept and preventative measures are taken.

If that’s a silly argument to you, then the only thing you and I will probably ever see eye to eye on is the unfortunate population problems that DR faces every time the LS events hit the second day of being alive.

mtpelion.4562:

See how silly your argument is? That is why slippery slopes are fallacies. You don’t have a data set that backs up your argument, you have an inference based on unrelated things extrapolated to an unproven result.

Allow me to summarize your argument: ANet would never act like a business, even though it’s a business, nor would it make business-like decisions in a market of business, with other businesses, that have already been down this road, and made the decision that generally increases profit, which is what businesses do. And ANet won’t act like this because I magically know they’re better than that, even though they’ve just released an item that tests those very same waters that have been tested before!

History has never repeated itself, after all! Russia would never encroach on the sovereignty of another nation after what happened with Georgia!

mtpelion.4562:

I mock them for continuing to repeat debunked arguments. Try again.

The problem is that you mock them at all. Nice reply change, by the way. Do tell about the personal attacks I made. Please, by all means. I’m curious.

mtpelion.4562:

Items #2 & #3 may have merit, but they aren’t items that lend themselves to any constructive conversation because they are either purely opinions, not yet supported by facts, or are not appropriate conversations for this forum. As such, they are just reiterations of arguments.

I believe #2 was precedent. In which case, it does lend itself to constructive conversation, or it would if not for you and the people like you out to mock and not actually add anything constructive.

As I’ve seen many people say in this forum and elsewhere before: ANet is not a charity, they are a business. And as a business, short of player feedback, they are going to release whatever they can that makes them even more money.

You say there’s no data point. There’s no precedent because it’s only the first time.

I say you’re bloody well ignoring modern business practices of the last decade, as well as basically every other cash shop that has ever existed in any game with a cash shop.

But please. Enlighten me. Even though ANet is a business and as such will, without feedback, make business-like decisions, like every other business in the world, what is it that makes ANet somehow better in that regards. What makes them magically able to not raise the stakes every time without feedback?

There’s plenty of data points. It’s called the world. It’s called the business world. It’s called “that part of the gaming industry where cashshops are a thing”.

mtpelion.4562:

I personally don’t like the idea of getting bonus items from using the pick,

So then…you agree with the people who dislike the pick (generally speaking, obviously you don’t agree with certain arguments). Yet you’re against us, because…

mtpelion.4562:

but I also understand that it is a non-issue because the advantage it provides is still purely convenience

Oh, this argument again. The one that ignores every other argument people have made. Like, you know, the one where no other pick in game does this kind of thing.

Basically, even this argument of yours banks on “LOL SPROCKETS ARE WORTHLESS GUYS SO IT’S OKAY.”

So answer me this. What if sprockets weren’t worthless?

mtpelion.4562:

I’m frequently contrary, but that’s primarily because I have a compulsion to correct bad arguments.

Too bad your own arguments in this instance are fairly bad.

People have posted here, with worries about the direction the cash chop is taking, because they care about the game and want to see it succeed and not go down the paths of other games, some of which are NCsoft titles.

And all you do is mock them, adding nothing to what could be a constructive conversation. Because you’re ultimately not even willing to hear or entertain the arguments being said. You’ve already decided they’re without merit because you magically know ANet is without flaw and would never go down the path that other, similar titles already have.

But of course, you still disagree with the pick in theory! So obviously you’ll be there if the day were to ever come that everything really did hit the fan! And you’ll be such a help! Joining those fellow voices when it’s already too late! Brava to you! Brava I say!

So first you say that “Some people have raised various arguments regarding whether this sets a precedent for future content releases or whether paying for convenience is bad, and while those may be conversations with merit”

And then you turn around and say that the precedent point doesn’t have merit and that there’s no room for constructive conversation.

Make up your kitten mind. Which is it?

Actually, you know what? Just answer me this. Do you even have a point to any of this beyond wanting to mock people?

I mean, let’s go with the theoretical. That those arguing against the watchwork pick have won so far as future installments of unlimited tools are concerned (which -seems- to be the case, given the scythe). People are still buying these regular unlimited tools (at least so far as I can tell). ANet is still making money and as such can still fuel this game. The only thing that’s changed is that those who stopped spending money on ANet because of this product and would have remained not spending money are again spending money because trust has been regained.

I mean, what’s so bad about that? Did you actually like the pick? Is it that you were invested in it existing because -reason here-? Do you think more tools should do these things?

Or are you just being contrary for the sake of it? Because by being contrary you can lightly mock people?

mtpelion.4562:

Some people have raised various arguments regarding whether this sets a precedent for future content releases or whether paying for convenience is bad, and while those may be conversations with merit, anyone who raises “P2W” in their argument has legitimately opened themselves up to light-hearted mockery because their argument is moot.

Except the light-hearted mockery is all you’ve done, and all you’ve focused on, to both the “P2W” people -and- the people who have said “The pick sets some alarming precedents that worry us”

All you and most of the people in agreement with you have done is mock, lightly or otherwise. And then when people show up and talk about possible precedents, how that worries them, and how sprockets aren’t a part of their arguments, what do you do?

You stand over in your little corner, still going "HEY GUYS LOOK AT MY CLEVER AND WITTY COMMENTS THAT SHOW I’M MOCKING P2W ARGUMENTS BY HARPING ABOUT SPROCKETS AND HOW “WINNING” THEY MAKE ME"

Some people scream P2W and you mock them and go “NOU”
Some people scream Precedent and you still mock them and go “NOU”

In neither scenario have you ever added -anything- of worth to this thread. Arguably, you’ve added less to the conversation than even the P2W arguments.

2/10

Too many game breaking bugs. Too many disconnects from the server that are on ANet’s end. Too many game breaking fixes to the game breaking bugs. And on a subjective level, the story was horrible and Scarlet was an annoying, cardboard cutout of a villain. I’m glad that she’s dead if only because it means never having to deal with her again.

If this is what comes of “extra polished” content, this game is going to have severe issues reaching the next year at any kind of success.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The skins keep getting pushed out more frequently because people said they wanted it that way, and would rather like to have premium skins through the Gem Store.

As far as I’ve ever seen, what people said is that if the only choices for skins are between gemstore RNG gambling chests or just putting them directly into the gemstore, then just put them directly into the gemstore so that people don’t have to deal with only a small chance at getting said skin.

Vol.7601:

It seems the GW1 crowd wants everything exclusive to them.

As per your own words, that’s the only way to keep things epic, is it not?

Watchwork pick should have never had that bonus, so it’s good that this scythe doesn’t have any extra bonuses.

Nike.2631:

I just think the imaginary realm where Ascended never happened looked a lot darker (and emptier) to the people with more of the facts than you’re making it out to be.

I don’t see that same world for one simple reason: The world where ascended exists is already dark and empty. All my friends sans 1 are gone, and to make matters worse, I’m on Devonas Rest. I hope our server’s population issues aren’t lost on you.

Now, mind you, I’m not trying to say that all of that is the fault of Ascended. All I’m trying to say is that this dark and empty world you speak of that you feel would exist without Ascended -still- exists with Ascended. Ascended hasn’t solved anything, in other words.

If they were wildly dissatisfied with the outcome, its wouldn’t be hard at all to make modest tweaks to the process to make it less grindy. This was a large part of the vertical progression CDI discussions,

And I made my feelings known during that CDI. I made sure to comment on it.

But the CDI and ANet actually doing anything are two separate things. It’s one thing to listen. It’s another to act. A lot of games are coming up on the horizon, ANet is going to find themselves with a lot of competition. They need to start turning those CDIs into reality.

I think we will see more attention paid to not kicking people with alts in the junk quite so hard as they do now.

Nothing will actually be fixed unless they change how Ascended is obtained by adding other methods, or getting rid of it, or changing it to be exotic level with stat change, or something. It doesn’t matter how much attention you pay to the wound, now, if you still leave the dagger in. The damage is still already done and no healing can occur while the problem itself is still stuck in the wound.