Guild Wars 2

SkiTz.4590:

. You realize anet has not followed your logic one bit and yet you continue to believe you are correct

Yes, because obviously ANet has never made any mistakes or anything. Nope, every single decision and implementation they’ve done has 100% worked and been 100% right. None of their decisions have ever backfired on them, no siree.

maddoctor.2738:

The idea of everything being available through all content is the same as having gold as the currency. What’s the point in creating all these new reward tracks for all types of content if you can just use gold (or karma).

The point would be to use those reward tracks if that’s the method you want to use to obtain things?

I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about that.

maddoctor.2738:

There is a reason they are trying to go away of gold as the currency, they aren’t doing it because they don’t like gold, but because they don’t want every reward being available through all kinds of content. Can’t change that.

And you’re so certain that can’t be changed because…why exactly? Do you have a crystal ball? Mind PMing me the next winning lotto numbers?

SkiTz.4590:

Idk why you keep arguing

Because I own the game and as such have access to these forums.

If it bothers you so much, stop replying to me and ignore my posts from here on out.

dsslive.8473:

Should AC armor be available by grinding SW?

Sure, absolutely.

I know you typed out a lot more, and I did snip it, because this one question sums up that we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this, so I don’t see as much point responding to the rest. I did read it, though, so I do see where you’re coming from.

I simply disagree.

dsslive.8473:

People want challenging content, and they want to feel appropiatly rewarded for it. Why is that so wrong?

Let me ask you a question, then.

Why do you suddenly feel less rewarded if the item you get can be obtained by someone else doing different content? Why does how they obtain the reward matter? Why does the item you’re going after have to be exclusive for you to feel good about it?

(These questions assume you feel this way, as I’m not entirely sure how you actually feel about it. So feel free to alternatively treat these questions as me asking if you feel this way)

dsslive.8473:

And no it’s not about being that “special snowflake” or to “stroke ones ego”.

It is if you also want that reward to be exclusive.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I don’t care if they throw in the hard content as long as they don’t go down the route of exclusive rewards. I would rather everyone be able to get the things they want doing the content they love most. That goes for the new content they are making, as well as retroactively.

phys.7689:

They arent going to do all that, so exclusives is the only way they can reward gameplay appropriately without opening a huge can of grind.

You are literally arguing for ANet to take another easy way out, like how grind is an easy way out.

You should want them to put the work and the systems in. You should want them to make this game the best it can be. Your idea of exclusive rewards is just as short sighted a fix as you think my ideas are.

phys.7689:

you have a lot of disengunous answers that seem like you are just trying to argue, without considering realities.

Like the reality that people doing hard content for fun is bull?

Sorry, you don’t get to make a stupid comment like “nobody does easy content for fun” and then turn around and say I’m disingenuous. Stuff it up your nose.

1) you have a party sometimes, when you want to, for the benefit of those you have chosen, you arent expected to throw parties for people on a regular basis, thats why i said repeatedly.

But why do you throw that party? Because it’s fun? Or because you expect to get presents that none of your party-goers have?

Again, my problem with the challenging argument is that people are saying they want challenging content but then turning around and saying they wouldn’t do it unless it gives them rewards that only they are allowed to have.

How much can they care about the challenging content if the only reason they want it is to flaunt their kitten around? How can content like that be worth developing? The only way the challenging content community is going to have it’s itch scratched is with content that only a small portion of the playerbase will be able to complete. It has to be a minority that can complete the content otherwise it’s not challenging. That is a waste of resources.

If that’s the kind of game you want, then I’m sorry, but you are literally playing the wrong game. ANet sold this game on being able to do the content you like to get the rewards you want, with things like Legendaries for the more hardcore grind side.

Stop trying to turn this game into something it was never meant to be.

phys.7689:

2) the reason i am a proponent of unique rewards doesnt have to just with difficulty but the realities of economics. The type of economy that would justify the prices properly based on difficulty or skill are hard to maintain, and not very rewarding to most players, which is why i wouldnt use them.

This point makes no sense. What you’re saying seems to be that exclusive rewards tied to difficult content are in fact not sustainable.

So then how is it a good idea to tie exclusive rewards to difficult content? It makes no sense!

I get the feeling that’s not what you’re trying to say, so please clarify.

phys.7689:

3) The whole fun aspect is two teir, because lets be honest, a big part of fun in an MMO is progress. so while challenging content is fun,

How many times do I have to say that challenging content is not automatically fun?

You can’t just say “challenging content is fun” because that isn’t some kitten immutable fact.

phys.7689:

not progressing in a progression game is unfun. So naturally most people wont do the fun things that hamper progress.

So then ANet should make sure that all content allows progress so that all content is fun.

But that doesn’t neccesitate the existence of exclusive gear.

phys.7689:

just like in regular sports people may not use fun tactics that are likely to lose them the game. while throwing a hail mary pass in football may be fun, losing is not fun.

This isn’t a sport. Unless you’re in PvP or WvW, you aren’t competing with anyone. The PVE of this game is cooperative. You can’t even fight over nodes for kitten sake.

phys.7689:

the fact that you act like you dont know that rewards drives gameplay, i find to be hard to believe.

Okay, so how does any of this neccesitate the existence of exclusive rewards? If content A is challenging a drops a shiny, and content B is easier, but contains a grind or time factor, and drops the same shiny, and you like content A, THEN YOU SHOULD DO CONTENT A.

If you take the “path of least resistance” while claiming that you like challenging content, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

FrizzFreston.5290:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Actually you’re the reason he’s mad about. He wants less people like you in the game. I do too. You’re everything that’s wrong with the community you represent.

I’m glad you show your true colours. This is pure discrimination.

Huh, I missed that post. Dude shouldn’t say what I’m mad about, but I answered the question anyway that he was responding to, so whatever.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Its simple. It will show who are we dealing with.

Okay, so who are you dealing with? You got your answer.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

If you will say “ascended armor” I will flip the table.

Then flip the table, because yes, ascended armor freaking counts. Deal with it.

SkiTz.4590:

3 years since launch and you told me 3 examples , fractals(including ascended gear) , teq revamp and TT

I mean, I was listing the most prominent. But I would also consider dungeons challenging content even if you think they’re super easy mode. Plus the general rise in difficulty that came with the Living Story content in season 2.

But again, let me guess. It was all super easy for you and that means it was super easy for everyone, right?

SkiTz.4590:

so quite a few changes = 3 and that means anet’s going in the direction Gene Archer doesn’t want..

Considering it looks like they’re making HoT to start as challenging content right out the gate and then get even harder from there with “challenging group content”?

Yeah, it’s going in a direction I don’t like. And I’m not just talking about content. It’s also things like reward distribution. Things like the pet from the ToT bags that has such a small RNG drop chance that it’s nearly non-existent. The continued addition of exclusive rewards in certain types of content. These are practices that Blizzard loves.

SkiTz.4590:

Yup, we are turning into WoW. Good one… 3 is soooo many examples of “hardcore” content huh… Theres only ONE example of locked out content (high lvl frac requiring ascended gear for Agony resist)… but this one example is somehow enough evidence that in the past 3 years, we are now becoming WoW….

So far as I’m concerned, one example is already one too many. And like I said, it’s other things as well.

SkiTz.4590:

Tell me, how much content has been “non hardcore” than in the past 3 years?? That wasn’t enough to satisfy you huh?

Well, I mean, isn’t it natural that I want to be able to enjoy as much of the content as possible? Including the new content?

Hell, I’m fine with the challenging content existing so long as exclusive rewards aren’t shoved behind it. But that’s not good enough for you, so yeah, we’re gonna be disagreeing forever, most likely.

But anyway, I thought this was all meaningless. Yet you’re still posting and replying to me. Funny, that.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gene Archer.8560:

SkiTz.4590:

You really wish you could obtain the PvP legendary backpeice by farming some nodes and opening 500 chests in a PvE map dont you?

I mean, if you want to throw that crap around, then sure. I’ll just agree with it so you can feel superior or whatever. I’m not sure what your point is going to be, but you’re going to try and point at it to say I’m wrong somehow.

This question.

Well, I mean, what good will an answer do?

If I say yes, I’ll be called a filthy casual or something. If I say no, I’ll be called a hypocrite or something.

It’s not a legit question. It’s a very clearly loaded question. No matter what answer I give, it will somehow be “wrong”.

But if you’re that bent for an answer, then yeah. I’d be totally cool with that.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Btw WoW =/= GW2 if you have not noticed. Even community is not like in WoW.

Yeah, MMO communities are not as unique as you think they are. There is quite a bit of overlap. And quite a few of ANets changes over the past years have definitely brought the game more in line with the standard WoW-esque style.

SkiTz.4590:

Gene, all your posts are invalidated if you believe teq revamp turned him hardcore and only 5% of the population can do it now…

From the time that he was revamped until the time where Mega Servers happened, only a fraction of servers were having successful Teq runs. Most servers stopped bothering with him after his two week re-introduction.

He didn’t go back onto a majority farm status until a time after Megaservers. And even then, I don’t think he has nearly the numbers that he had back when he was just another World Boss.

And no, all of my posts are not invalidated by that, but nice try.

SkiTz.4590:

and fractals are too hard?? really? my goodness.

So fractals weren’t added as challenging content?

And, that aside, yes, fractals are hard. Oh, wait, let me guess. They aren’t hard for you so obviously they aren’t hard for anyone, right? You find it easy, so everyone must.

SkiTz.4590:

They added ascended gear. Woah, one slight (~5% stat) upgrade, and completely unnecessary (Only reason you even need ascended is for minmax WvW/fractals), tier upgrade in 3 years. Ya that’s a good example of showing me how this is going to turn in WoW….. good one…

So wait, Ascended is completely unnecessary…except for those two areas you note where it’s necessary.

Logic!

SkiTz.4590:

All of this is meaningless. You KNOW FOR A FACT challenging content is coming, whether you like it or not.

If it’s so meaningless, why do you keep replying? In fact, since it’s meaningless, why are you even posting?

Devata.6589:

And why is it done with gold, to support the model, and so you can “earn the rewards the way you want.” and that then results in the grind.

Changing the currency (like to karma) will not do much, if everything would be karma based, people would start grinding karma. It really does not matter what name you give the currency.

No, but it does matter how the currency interacts with the world. Karma isn’t tied to the marketplace. It can’t be traded in the same ways gold can be. It can’t inflate in value the way gold can due to it lacking a market. So it can be awarded in higher amounts in order to avoid the problems that occur with excessive grind burnout.

Devata.6589:

A solution could be to put one specific item behind 3 different things (a JP, a mini dungeon and a quest) in an attempt to give everybody something, but then PvP or WvW people might complain. So trying to make it available for everybody without making it a grind is close to impossible.

But it’s not close to impossible. WvW has badges (and I think are gaining reward tracks?). PvP has reward tracks.

Devata.6589:

Even putting it behind 3 things is a problem as one of them will likely turn out to be way easier then the other. It’s hard to know on forehand what will turn out harder content and what not.

Again, if people need to be bribed into harder content, then how good could that content honestly be? How popular is that content really?

You keep saying “people will go to the easiest option!” And my response is thus: Then they weren’t interested in the harder content, they were interested in the reward.

Devata.6589:

Besides, I also like the idea that an item belongs to specific content, so it becomes a trophy of that content and is themed around that content. It adds a lot of value to the item.
Now the item is something to be pride of, instead of only a cool looking skin.

I disagree with this assessment, but I don’t think we’d come to an agreement on this part.

SkiTz.4590:

First off, there is not even a hardcore crowd in this game because there is nothing hardcore in this game to begin with, so your basis is completely off.

Oh, so Teq wasn’t revamped to be raid-lite? Fractals weren’t created? Triple Trouble isn’t a thing?

Yeah, there’s never been any hardcore content in this game. ANet hasn’t tried this several times or anything. They’ve never tried making challenging content before. Those things don’t exist.

SkiTz.4590:

2nd, This won’t be another WoW so long as they don’t add power creep via more powerful weapons/armor tiers. GW2 will remain just fine as long as they are not adding ridiculous power creep like WoW did where you absolutely HAVE TO GET X RAID GEAR to do the best content.

They’ve already done it once. It’s called Ascended Gear and Lvl 50 Fractals.

SkiTz.4590:

I don’t see the types of players here with your description of “they don’t want others to succeed, they want plebs to bow down to their awesomeness, they want to be alone at top of the mountain”

Then you’re blind.

If that’s not true, then why do you need exclusive rewards tacked onto challenging content? Why do the rewards need to only be obtainable through that challenging content? Why can’t they be made available in other ways as well?

Because if they are, you’ll do those other things instead?

Then you never cared about challenging content. You cared about having rewards that only you could have.

SkiTz.4590:

….this is NOT WoW, and it WONT turn into WoW because they added unique progression/reward to challenging content… everyone is going to have access to the new content, so your assumptions on this turning into WoW is ridiculous.

Everyone has access to the content in WoW. They just have to do all the “hardcore” stuff if they want all the good shinies.

It’s the same thing you’re asking for here.

SkiTz.4590:

Who ever said the challenging content will be exclusive to a few???

I mean, really? By it’s very nature, only a small number of players are going to be successful with challenging content. Otherwise said content isn’t challenging, if everyone is beating it.

It’s freaking common sense.

SkiTz.4590:

Just because you failed once and gave up and now say “welp, only 5% of the players will ever beat it, there’s no way I could get better and accomplish it!”, doesn’t mean its exclusive.

What about failing 10 times? Or 20? Or only a small percentage only every completing it?

Because you know, like was already explained, in order for it to be challenging, only a minority can be able to complete it.

SkiTz.4590:

If you can buy HoT and jump right into the new content without any pre reqs (like ton of AR for high lvl fracs), than its 100% accessible to EVERYONE. Not a select few….

Jumping into content and actually finishing content are two different things and you bloody well know it.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Oh look! Someone bringing whole lot of ifs and buts

Ifs and buts?

Ohoni made a post saying that rewards shouldn’t be exclusive and people have posted actively disagreeing saying that exclusive rewards should exist behind challenging content.

That is exactly what WoW does. It fosters this through their raiding community.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

combined with WoW.

Because it’s the game I have the most experience with.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

And not only that but he managed to evade legit question because he is “better than this”.

Which question was evaded, precisely? Be specific. Maybe, you know, face me head on.

SkiTz.4590:

for the thousandth time, there’s already easy content thats stupidly well rewarded , now they are adding hard content to be well rewarded. They are adding diversity to the game. Whats your problem with that?

My problem with it is that I’ve seen this song and dance already in games like WoW. It is never enough for the “hardcore” crowd. They won’t be satisfied until they are the only ones with all the shinies and rewards. They won’t be satisfied until they are the only ones making progress. They don’t want anyone else to make progress, they ACTIVELY don’t want anyone ever getting near their progress.

I don’t want this game to turn into WoW. I don’t want ANet to even come close to feeding that elitist raid or die mentality. There is no going back from it once you start.

SkiTz.4590:

You mad because you can’t spam auto attack and acquire the unique loot anymore?

The only time I’ve ever spammed auto attack and nothing else was against the random wolf and moa mobs in Queensdale, because apparently unlike you and all the other people seeking challenging content, I actually understand that utilizing all of my skills against every enemy, whether Vet, Elite, World Boss, or Dungeon Boss, causes more damage and as such ends the fight faster and more likely in my favor.

Alternatively, I must have a defective copy of the game, because my auto attacks don’t crit for 10k. I’ll be sure to file a ticket with support, since apparently there’s a problem.

SkiTz.4590:

You actually have to use the dodge button and that’s too hard for you now?

I’ve always had to use the dodge button because stacking armor in this game is worthless since everything is designed to hit like a truck or status effect you to death.

I wish I had your version of the game, because then maybe I’d have a couple seconds to think through my plan rather than to miss a single dodge and lose half my health.

SkiTz.4590:

The only ppl that see anet wasted their time are ppl like you who are too casual to see beyond your own selfish views.

Yes, I’m the selfish one for daring to want everyone to be able to obtain everything in the game in the fashion they please. How dare I. There’s nothing selfish at all about wanting rewards to be exclusive to the few. Nothing selfish about that at all, nope. Clearly you are the selfless one. The unwashed masses should wish they were as dong endowed as you!

SkiTz.4590:

You want everything to be obtained from just running circles in silverwastes because its super easy and relaxing right?

Sure, or from doing jumping puzzles, or from doing x, or from doing y, or from doing whatever a person finds fun.

SkiTz.4590:

You really wish you could obtain the PvP legendary backpeice by farming some nodes and opening 500 chests in a PvE map dont you?

I mean, if you want to throw that crap around, then sure. I’ll just agree with it so you can feel superior or whatever. I’m not sure what your point is going to be, but you’re going to try and point at it to say I’m wrong somehow.

SkiTz.4590:

the heck with unique progression, who needs it right,

I certainly don’t. But I also don’t need to have things that others don’t to feel good about myself.

SkiTz.4590:

thats not what MMORPGs are about right!?

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize GW2 was just another dime a dozen WoW clone. Silly me, I was under the impression that this game was trying to break the mold and be something different for a change.

If you just want another WoW, might I recommend you go play WoW? There’s a free to play option through time tokens these days. Or how about Wildstar? Their hardcore stuff was so successful that they’re going free to play, soon.

phys.7689:

this idea that people do challenging content for fun is bull.

Fixed that for you.

phys.7689:

if this is the case why are 90% of the maps empty when nothing profitable is going on?

If challenging content is so fun, why was Orr empty for so long until it got several nerfs? If challenging content is so fun, why don’t more people take part in triple trouble?

phys.7689:

regardless of enjoying easy or hard, people are playing the game chasing progress.

I don’t disagree. But you’re ignoring a huge difference between the two mindsets when it comes to progress.

One is asking for progress. The other is asking for progress exclusive to them.

phys.7689:

point is people want challenging content, and they want it to be worthwhile. this is not mutually exclusive.

If the only reason you’re doing challenging content is for the shinies, then yes, it is in fact mutually exclusive. If you actually liked and had fun with challenging content you would freaking do it because it’s fun.

But you don’t. And “worthwhile” rewards? Please. You don’t want worthwhile rewards. You want completely exclusive rewards, and yes there is a difference.

So again, if you won’t do challenging content without exclusive rewards, then you don’t want challenging content. You want exclusive rewards and you happen to know that challenging content is the best method of making sure you remain exclusive.

phys.7689:

If you enjoy cooking, does that mean you want to repeatedly cook for 30 people for no benefit?

My folks did it all the time. It was called having a party.

I feel bad for you if you’ve never been to a party. Your life must be sad.

SkiTz.4590:

Than nobody is going to play the new challenging content if it doesn’t have “unique progression/reward system”.

Then those people shouldn’t have wasted ANet’s time asking for challenging content since they clearly don’t actually care about challenging content.

They should have just been honest and said “I want to be a special snowflake, give me exclusive rewards. Stroke my ego.”

Devata.6589:

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

So then don’t make it a grind.

You’re blaming the wrong part. The problem isn’t that everything is attained with gold. The problem is that to attain anything with gold in a decent timeframe, you can only do a certain subset of content because that’s the only content that rewards enough gold to get anywhere, because if you reward too much gold you eventually reach hyper inflation in the marketplace. This in turn leads to the grind problem, because currently people can’t do the content they want if they also want to ever obtain the items they’re after before they are old and grey unless that content is a specific set of dungeon runs or Silver Wastes.

ANet didn’t utilize karma to its full potential as the secondary currency to obtain things.

maddoctor.2738:

What’s your opinion on the actual topic?

All rewards should be available to everyone in some manner through doing content they enjoy.

If you want ideas?

ANet should be using karma for more. If you want to have challenging content for guaranteed drops, fine. But make those same drops also available through karma. Make it so karma is awarded from all content.

Holiday events should be handled more akin to FF14. That game seems to have a good handle on balancing the grind required to achieve holiday rewards, as opposed to say, how ANet handled the second Halloween.

What I want this game to avoid above all else is to become another WoW where only the top tier of the top tier are allowed to have the nice things. They want to be recognized for their efforts? Give them titles. Give them special portrait borders. Give them leaderboards. But don’t shower them in pets/skins/mounts/what have you.

People should be able to get the things they want in the game doing content that they find fun. A dev team that has to actively bribe their playerbase to do content has made shoddy content. That is what I believe.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m actively seeking challenge because I find that challenge can be fun.

Okay, and let’s say ANet puts in all that challenging content but that it winds up not being fun? What if it winds up being even more of a grind than the “easy” content?

At that point, HoT is a waste of an expansion for everyone.

And aside from that, who’s idea of “challenge” do we go based off? Yours? Why? What makes you the arbiter of what is challenging and what is not? And what happens when you expend HoT’s challenging content and need something even more challenging, while the majority of players are still struggling with HoT and below? Should ANet then make the next expansion even harder and leave people in the dust so only the best of the best are able to enjoy the game?

Because keep in mind, from what we’ve been shown so far, ANet isn’t quartering off the content in it’s own little area like Fractals. They’re making it the meat of the open world where the overwhelming majority of content takes place.

maddoctor.2738:

Then why did you play a challenging game if it wasn’t for fun?

Because the game had other qualities aside from challenge that I found fun? Like a compelling story that I just had to see to the end? Or really good mechanics? Or in the case of multiplayer stuff, because I was playing with friends and we were dinking around?

maddoctor.2738:

So you play games for other things than fun? Are you playing games for a job?

Dear god I wish. My job would possibly be fun, then.

maddoctor.2738:

Challenge = fun when did I say that?

You’re in this thread saying the game needs challenging content. Why would you say that if you didn’t think challenge = fun?

Oh, right. Because you actually want challenging content for the exclusivity factor. Sorry, I forgot.

maddoctor.2738:

Only that there is FUN to be found in challenges… seriously

In other words, challenge = fun.

maddoctor.2738:

The only genres I don’t really play are sports games and facebook games, you said I haven’t played a decent game, so it’s fitting that you are calling facebook games decent (and sports games) since everything else (that I play) is crappy. Your words not mine.

I was merely turning your flippant and uncalled for comment around on you. But now I realize I was far too subtle for you, seeing as you took it to an entirely different level.

But honestly? Facebook games can actually be decent. All depends on how they’re made.

maddoctor.2738:

This is getting completely off topic though and if you want to think that challenge = work I’ll just disagree and say that grind = work, not the other way around.

It’s perfectly on topic. The thread is about hard mode and challenging content. We’re talking about that. Don’t make excuses if you don’t want to continue, just say you’re bowing out.

maddoctor.2738:

When you bash your head on a wall because you can’t do something and try again until you get it, that’s what I do in almost all -good video games- I’ve ever played.

Then your life is clearly far too boring if you have to actively seek out stress. You might have a problem. You should probably see a shrink.

maddoctor.2738:

Really? You’ve never played any part in a video where you actually lost a fight. You’ve never played an encounter in a video game that couldn’t get with your first few tries? And obviously you’ve never played a
multiplayer game…

Of course I’ve played all of those.

But the challenge wasn’t what decided what was fun for me. Challenge doesn’t automatically equate to fun. I’ve played hardcore mode + mods on FONV and had fun and then played Minecraft on peaceful and had just as much fun.

You’re clearly too far hung up on proving you’re some kind of video game tough guy.

maddoctor.2738:

Well of course I haven’t played many facebook games that require no skill or effort, or going outside my comfort zone to overcome certain difficulties.

Ah yes. The facebook game argument.

That strawman tells me all I need to know. You don’t want challenging content. You want exclusive content that only you can do so you can lord it over the lowly plebians.

Please just be honest, next time.

maddoctor.2738:

Now there is something to be said when someone is calling facebook games “decent”

I don’t recall calling facebook games decent, but hey, thanks for showing your true colors at the end there.

maddoctor.2738:

Putting goals behind intense repetitive content is exactly like working at a job (apologies to anyone working at a non-repetitive, fun and engaging job).

And putting goals behind challenging content that I have to bash my head against until I break the wall is also exactly like working at a job. Because it’s frustrating rather than fun.

maddoctor.2738:

Putting things outside poeple’s comfort zones sounds exactly like any video game.

Sounds like you play some crappy video games, then. Because being taken outside of my comfort zone doesn’t sound fun at all. It does sound like a job, though.

maddoctor.2738:

Sometimes I really get the idea that players who post on threads like this have never played video games.

Yeah, I am definitely getting that vibe from you. You’ve clearly never played a decent game in your life.

Fox.3469:

About let’s say 90% of jobs are basicly doing the same thing over and over. Even if there is variation to it. That is not taking you out of your comfort zone.

Doing work takes me out of my comfort zone, because work isn’t comfortable.

That’s why it’s work.

maddoctor.2738:

. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

Call me crazy, but taking goals and putting them outside of people’s comfort zones sounds -exactly- like working at a job.

lordkrall.7241:

Source for bold statement?

Well, there were the “best april fools” awards from I think PCGamer, and I believe for the Back to School, a “best dlc” or something was also awarded.

If that’s not good enough, how about the fact that the lack of SAB spawned two different “riots” that were large enough to get ANet’s attention.

Or, I mean, we could just continue to ignore SAB’s popularity in order to fit your strange anti-SAB obsession.

sebradle.7034:

If they promise anything they are just gonna create expectations.

Yes, God forbid people actually be able to expect anything from ANet for once in GW2’s lifespan.

We can’t have that, no siree. Gotta keep everyone in the dark! Can’t be having no expectations set, cause then ANet would actually have to deliver results!

How barbaric and uncouth a concept that is!

Fernling.1729:

Gene Archer.8560:

Exedore.6320:

From what I remember from “the other game”, Bashiok was pretty good and frequent with communication, knowledgeable about the game, and friendly.

Maybe that was true in the beginning, but at the end he was a sarcastic jerk that towed the Blizzard line even when Blizz was in the wrong.

I feel sorry for Wildstar if he’s going to be directly involved with it in any way.

I would still prefer bashiok over Martin Kerstein.. lol

I mean, I suppose if the only options are varying shades of not good…

Ashen.2907:

A lot of people work for NCSoft. Any reason that this one is being singled out ?

Former Blizz community manager. Wasn’t actually very good at it, despite what WoW players might say.

Exedore.6320:

From what I remember from “the other game”, Bashiok was pretty good and frequent with communication, knowledgeable about the game, and friendly.

Maybe that was true in the beginning, but at the end he was a sarcastic jerk that towed the Blizzard line even when Blizz was in the wrong.

I feel sorry for Wildstar if he’s going to be directly involved with it in any way.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bubi.7942:

lordkrall.7241:

50 pages, with multiple comments made by the devs, the latest outright stating that they need to change rather much issues in order to get it to work at all. Work that no company in their right mind would do while working on a major release.

You mean 1 right? That’s multiple? I have not dug through the thread (again), but I only seem to recall one made by Gaile Gray.

Please stop lying. Thanks.

“I haven’t bothered to confirm my stance, but because of my lack of new information I know better and you must be actively deceiving.”

Well done, sir. That is an amazing example of willful ignorance. Especially considering that the information you’re missing exists on this very same page and you wouldn’t even have to go searching for it. Colin posted on Reddit within the last month and that information is kindly reproduced here in this thread.

Two is, in fact, multiple. Even if it somehow wasn’t I believe there is at least one other post somewhere in this massive thread saying more of the same.

I was bored, so I went through the thread and looked.

Gaile is the only one to have ever posted in this thread. She posted four times. The first time was to tell us that Colin had personally told her that SAB would be back in “the future”.

The second and third times were just her interacting with the community because someone had responded to that first post of hers with a “NOOOOOOOO”.

The fourth was her post from four months ago saying that nothing had changed.

So, yes. Multiple posts have been made. Though I would argue only two of those actually had any worth so far as info confirmed, and even then, the second one that is worth anything only told us nothing had changed.

I guess you could tack on Colin’s as a fifth (arguably third), since it actually, for the first time ever, says anything truly worth saying, by being truly informative. It’s only too bad that he couldn’t be bothered to give that information on the official forums, in the official SAB thread.

Sure would have been nice. But sure, ANet has met the minimum requirements for multiple posts, laughable as they are.

Ashen.2907:

JediYoda.1275:

@Ayrilana.1396 thank you

the key word people are missing is “intention” 1.a thing intended; an aim or plan:

If a merchant announces to its customers, whose use of their product is affected by recent changes, that they intend to make bi-weekly adjustments in light of those changes, it would be a good idea to also announce when/if they decide to not follow through on those intentions.

But, Ashen! That’s expecting too much information! It’s unreasonable to expect to be kept up to date on a situation! It’s unreasonable to expect an update four months down the line after you’ve been told a fix is coming “soon” !

Can’t you see how unreasonable you’re being by expecting ANet to actually keep us up to date on the situation!?

((I can uh, I can jam in more sarcasm if need be. Just let me know.))

Therodin.2970:

As much as i like to mention the infinite continue coin to get people talking about sab i definitely do not want them to give refunds for it because if they did then i feel sab is really and truly dead.

Why do people think like this?

The continue coin exists and that hasn’t stopped ANet from completely disregarding SAB as a whole, anyway.

I’d much rather get a refund and have SAB be truly dead rather than get strung along endlessly.

Vayne.8563:

I agree with you. Anet has made changes to items like town clothes. They also explained why those changes were made and offered refunds to people due to those changes.

Yep, and it’s definitely good that they offered refunds. But they still changed things around in a direction that can be perceived as a negative one, depending on the person. (turning the town clothes into potions instead of setting the clothes up to work with the rest of the wardrobe)

But again, that’s gonna be a personal thing, so yeah. It’s…very wibbly wobbly. (I keep using that word, I honestly have no idea what word to use though)

Vayne.8563:

I find the gem store to be somewhere between a free to pay game and a subscription game’s gem store.

I’d place it more towards the F2P end, personally speaking. It’s hard to judge because so far as my own experiences are concerned with MMOs that have cash shops, ANet is the only one that has on several occasions edited an item in some way so as to render it different from its initial form.

I think only one or two other games has ever done that, and selectively at that.

Vayne.8563:

Probably the only issue I have with the gem store is the infinite continue coin, to which I believe Anet should offer refunds.

You’ll see no dissenting opinion here on that. I absolutely believe they should offer a refund as well.

Vayne.8563:

However, over all the quality of the game, the amount of hours I’ve played it and the amount of money I felt obligated to spend (bank tabs and character slots pretty much), makes this the best gaming value I’ve had.

And that’s where the personal portion ultimately weighs in and why this such a wibbly wobbly topic, I believe.

As an example, I was “meh” towards the expansion to begin with. Looking back over Living Story season 1, and 2, I ultimately was not impressed, whether that be story/content/whatever. So an expansion that is likely more the same, even with some things that look really cool (in this instance, I’m referring to guild halls, as I am a sucker for player housing), is going to register as a “probably pass” with kitten price tag, (this should real 50 dollar price tag, I do not know why it does not)especially when (again, for me personally), Fallout 4 is on the horizon, and only so much money can go towards them vidja games.

Then the SAB “riots” occurred. Again. And ANet continues to deny refunds on the ICC. They won’t even mark a potential (not definite, but potential) year (not day or month) for when one might get to use the coin, again.

So then when I look at the potential value for the expansion it becomes this:

I -might- enjoy the content HoT brings out, assuming it doesn’t get iterated into the ground. But before I even begin judging the quality of the content, I have to deal with a company that is both unwilling to communicate with me on an item I purchased from them, as well as deny me a refund on that item that continue to sit uselessly in my bank because they’re too busy doing other things.

Regardless of where ANet’s intent may be in truth, regardless of what they are or are not working on, the impression they give is that they don’t care about me or my money as a customer, which brings my mind to the personal conclusion of:

“Why spend money on a game I may only like being made by a company that isn’t treating me how I’d like to be treated?”

And with that in mind, my own judgment call becomes: Don’t even bother with the expansion, even if it offers 2000 hours of content and the best player housing you’ve ever seen.

I think it’s why so many different threads are popping up (not specifically because of the ICC, just general differing value judgments), and why this may be more heated overall compared to what one might see on other forums. GW2 has been through a myriad of changes in a very short amount of time. I think it may have done some damage to the solidarity of the community.

I would argue another possible criteria should be how one feels ANet has handled the person as a customer. Which obviously will be different for each person, based on things like gem store purchases and such.

The quality of the expansion itself is going to matter the most, obviously. But one of the judging factors that someone is likely to look at in this instance is how ANet has handled other products in the past, and that will include gem store items, seeing as there are several that have gone though some…“changes”, for lack of a better term.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Iason Evan.3806:

So before the physics changes they weren’t actively working on it because not many people played it the second time around(according to ArenaNet’s metrics)and now it’s because of physics changes?

Or nah?

They weren’t working on SAB during Season 2 “because it didn’t fit into the story.” After Season 2 ended it can be assumed that they had already moved three of the four living world teams to start work on the expansion. No SAB during the expansion life cycle because no resources.

Too bad it still won’t happen even once resources are freed up, since those resources will go to the next Living Story, and SAB “doesn’t fit into the story”.

It’s going to be at least three years at this point before SAB will even be considered to be worked on. ANet needs to bite the bullet and offer refunds on the continue coin since, despite their assurances, it’s very clear they’re not going to actually ever work on or find time for the Super Adventure Box.

Zmodd.5427:

A Focus, perhaps.

Edit: I’ve just tested and it’s not ideal, if you pass through the curtain and the Signet activates the Swiftness right before you won’t get it at all, just as it is with other Swiftness but more unpredictable.

So basically it’s still a hassle to try and get 100% uptime on swiftness.

I thought ANet was fixing that for mesmers?

Basically what the title asks. Now that there’s finally an easier way to get swiftness on a mesmer, is there anyway to bring it up to 100% uptime rather than the current once every other 5 seconds?

Conski Deshan.2057:

That does not mean the game is not competitive,

The game isn’t competitive because I’m not competing with you.

Any competition you think is there between us is in your head.

Conski Deshan.2057:

this is hopefully being expanded on in the mysterious challenge content being added in HOT

I wouldn’t count on it.

Conski Deshan.2057:

. Regardless I like exclusivity it’s fun for me and my guildies and that’s all that matters to me.

And it’s horrible for me, and that’s all that matters to me.

Conski Deshan.2057:

It’s a motivator for game play.

It completely demotivates me to even bother.

I don’t play video games to experience real life things like “haves and have nots”. I play them to get away from that depressing crap.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I treat the game as a competition

Then you are doing it wrong, full stop. ANet has been more than clear about the PvE in this game being cooperative, not competitive.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I don’t want to equal to everyone I want to beat them, have more , do more, be more.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I’ll also be the one to say it, if everyone looks awesome , no one looks awesome.

But with enough options, everyone looks unique. Which is still awesome. So yes, if everyone looks awesome, everyone still looks awesome.

Congratulations to those that have attained victory.

I don’t want to say “riot for everything ever”, or something like that. But you should definitely always try to get the best bang for your buck, even if you have to make some racket to get a company to pay attention. Never assume that them getting your money is a done deal if you ever feel some hesitation about the product you are purchasing.

Iason Evan.3806:

Their communication has been awful for a good long while now too. Hopefully that starts to change.

It was already supposed to have changed.

Galen Grey.4709:

Offering free copies would be a good example, I’d be interested in seeing that article if you find it.

I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Galen Grey.4709:

Then I think you misunderstood what we were saying. We were talking about Arenanet anticipating the backlash before they announced the pre-purchase. IE when they were discussing what to include in the package months before the announcement did they realize what they did decided would make fans angry? That is naturally something that current threads couldnt have helped them forsee, at least not without a time machine.

And I pointed out the thread that specifically mentions adding a character slot for users who buy HoT. I’m trying to remember the title. Something along the lines of “HoT and character slots” or something.

Basically, people were giving feedback about HoT and Character Slots before the prepurchase was even a thing.

Galen Grey.4709:

You think so? so you’re a player who thought Pandaria sounds bad and decided not to buy it at all. Draenor launches but if you’ve even been playing you’re still level 85 because well you dont own pandaria so now suddenly you’re okey with play though pandaria in order to get to level 90 so you can start draenor ?

Yes, because that is exactly what I did. I took my 85 into pandaria, quested through about three zones before hitting 90 to prep that character for Draenor, and then took that free 90 boost and made an all new character with it.

Galen Grey.4709:

(not sure if there is another way to get to 90 without playing through pandaria (not a wow player) if thats there is an equally or faster way to get to 90 my argument is likely invalid.

Heirlooms, which give more exp in everything you do while wearing them.

Galen Grey.4709:

of course it matters. if giving away something for free increases your market size by 3 million people you’d be crazy to charge $10 for it. (again provided there was no alternative)

WoW chargers $60 for just a char boost. They definitely factored the lvl 90 boost in the price of the expansion.

Galen Grey.4709:

didnt do that with pandaria!

Pandaria also wasn’t based off one of their most successful expansions. It also wasn’t hyped as well, and the community wasn’t looking forward to it as much. Draenor was their “return to form”, so it excited a -ton- of people, because of how horrible Pandaria was perceived.

Galen Grey.4709:

Did you actually hear about people being refused a refund or is it just that the stories you hear of people who have successfully refunded had bought the game less then a month ago?

Specifically heard some stories about people being more than a month back being out of luck.

The recommendation given to them was to try and “press the issue”

Galen Grey.4709:

How could they handle the FAQ issue any differently if they did indeed change their minds after the published the FAQ?

By making an announcement and letting everyone know? By communicating rather than just changing the FAQ?

They had this change prepared for E3, that means they had to have been considering it at least a few days before hand at the minimum. Tell us THEN. And then, also tell us specifically how we can go about getting refunds or whatever if need be.

Generally? And I don’t know how else to express this without caps, so I apologize in advance: STOP BEING SO SECRETIVE

Active dialogue is the key to success. Blizz had to learn that the hard way very recently with how they handled an in game issue.

Ohoni.6057:

But they won’t, so it would save us a lot of pointless angst if you would at least be quiet about it.

Said everyone in the BLTC forums to you all the time.

And your response was always “no”, sooooo…

Galen Grey.4709:

They’re pretty agile how? what exactly did CD Projekt Red do on the scale of changing the price of an item after it went for pre-order?

I’m referring to their ability to quickly handle gamebreaking patches for one. They put out like 3 patches in the first week when hair physics were breaking everything. There’s also the free copies of Witcher and Witcher 2 they offered to Korean customers due to some problems that cropped up. I’d have to find that article again for the specifics on what the issue was.

Galen Grey.4709:

I assume you’re referring to mega threads you’re refering to past issues not this expansion fallout right?

I’m referring to even this expansion fallout. The thread was linked earlier in this thread I believe. It’s a thread talking about including character slots with a purchase of the expansion.

But yes, also past issues.

There’s also the threads that popped up in regards to the heroic edition changes. So, um, yeah. There is some precedent for figuring out if vets might get salty over something like the core game bundle.

Galen Grey.4709:

1. they had to.

No, they didn’t. They could have sold Draenor easily off of the marketing and hype alone between the perception of returning to the “Outlands” and things like a taxi in Times Square with a gigantic Gorehowl embedded in it.

But it really doesn’t matter if they had to or not. The fact is, they did, and they factored that into the pricing, that’s why it cost the extra $10.

Galen Grey.4709:

I may be totally wrong but from where I stand it seems they gave that more for themselves then a gift for their players.

There is no such thing as a “gift” for the players in anything a company does. It’s all an attempt at making sales, so whatever argument you’re shooting for here is rather irrelevant.

Blizzard still did not have to do it. Hype alone would have shot Warlords into the starry night as a raging success rocket.

Galen Grey.4709:

. Its a present to players thats more of a present to themselves in actuality.

It’s a business move, nothing more. ANet heavily miscalculated, though, which isn’t surprising. They have a track record with that at this point.

Galen Grey.4709:

But cant business change their mind ever?

Sure, as long as they keep their customers properly informed in a timely manner. And failing that, so long as they find a way to maintain consumer trust.

These two things both happen to also be things that ANet is not very good at.

Galen Grey.4709:

and doesnt offering everyone a refund more then makes up for the FAQ issue?

From what I’m hearing, not everyone is being offered a refund. Only those about a month out are being offered the refund.

And honestly, in my opinion? No, it doesn’t make up for the FAQ issue. ANet continues to have these horrible communication issues with its playerbase/customers, even after promising to step up their game when it comes to communication. There are severe internal issues that they need to work out and fast.

Galen Grey.4709:

as for people were expecting prices more in line with Gw1, doubt it considering that unless I am mistake the 2 campaigns sold for $50 while EOTN sold for $40

Don’t know, merely an assumption on my part. But it seems clear quite a few people were not expecting $50. That much is certain.

Galen Grey.4709:

Perhaps, but the community does seem to be more sensitive then average too.

This community is no more sensitive than any other mmo community. It’s no more or less toxic than any other community, either, excepting maybe WoW or PvP games.

ANet’s finger is so far from the pulse of the community they may as well be holding their finger to a femur.

Vayne.8563:

They KNOW this fan base. Really. They know us.

.

They sure do have a funny way of showing it.

Ohoni.6057:

. The fact is, GW2 is not those other games, it has a higher level of quality,

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good one, SmoothPenguin. You crack me up.

Zaklex.6308:

So in reality that $50 price tag for HoT is getting you not only HoT + the base game, but also the next 2 or 3 seasons of Living Story…now tell me that price isn’t worth it?*

That price isn’t worth it.

Galen Grey.4709:

by its not an option I was referring for management to ever become agile in situations like these.

And yet…the Witcher guys are pretty agile.

I still think it’s possible.

Galen Grey.4709:

I am sure they’ve done their homework, people’s reaction are hard to predict.

Sorry, I don’t buy this. Not with the megathreads of feedback that have popped up for various issues.

Bethesda crushed E3 on day 0. ANet…hobbled. One company understood and predicted their fanbase and knew how to sell to them. The other is…facing these problems at the moment.

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure in hindsight its always easy to say they should have known but that doesnt necessary mean it was really easy to predict.

Everything I’ve seen suggests that they should have had at least an inkling.

Again, they had a megathread of feedback.

Galen Grey.4709:

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well,

Well, two things there.
1) WoW also included a free level 90 character with even the standard editions.
2) This expansion is looking to go down as one of their worst.

Anet failed on the first point and I think we can all agree that ANet doesn’t want to emulate the second. And, well, just because WoW does it, and even can get away with it, doesn’t mean that it’ll work for ANet.

Galen Grey.4709:

Turns out not highly enough but again anticipating that might not be that easy.

(snipped for brevity, my apologies)

It’s how they went about it, if you ask me. (I.E. the FAQ change and general lack of info or release date) Also, Blizz isn’t a company that ANet should be looking at for emulation so far as I’m concerned. I also get the feeling that what people envisioned when it came to an expansion was more along of the lines of GW1 and their prices. Or so I assume. There’s also the general consensus that what we’re looking at is an expansion that’s really just a living story segment and some features being packed together.

ANet…really hasn’t done much to alleviate that feeling.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would have fell for this too, who on earth could predict giving away something for free would have you labeled by the community as greedy?

If it would have fooled you as well, then you haven’t been paying attention to various threads.

It’s that simple.

The other problem is that, there are a ton of reasons in between the two issues you have outlined. They just all generally run the gambit of “$50 is too much” in one way or the other.

As a final thought, I get the feeling that on a very basic level, ANet is just, well, really bad at marketing and PR. Like, really, really bad. One might say horrible, even.

Huggywuggles.2814:

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

I get that you’re enjoying your honeymoon with a new game after Blizz basically sank their own ship, but please don’t pretend to know even half the situation of what’s gone on with this game the past couple years.

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not an option.

Be specific, what isn’t an option?

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision.

And what I’m saying is that there is initial homework they could have been doing that would have let them avoid a portion of this mess. I’m saying they didn’t put in the necessary work to begin with.

I forget which user said it, it may have been you, actually. But instead of hype for the expansion, everyone is reporting on or commenting on this negative (perceived or otherwise) thing that’s going down. Any work that ANet did at E3 has been essentially sidetracked, possibly even completely unraveled. And I’m not talking about just the forums. Media sites are reporting on this, rather than on the hype.

Regardless of any “right” or “wrong”, it can’t be denied that this was a definite moment of FUBAR. They dun goofed.

Ohoni.6057:

It stands to the power of the Great Ascended Exodus that I’ve been playing the game since beta and this is the first I’ve heard of it. Seriously, people were bothered when Ascended armor came out?

…Okay, now I know that you’re not Ohoni

Galen Grey.4709:

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

Here’s the thing. If a management team can’t be agile when reacting, then it either needs to be agile and fluid before the time of reacting, -or- have enough of a finger on the pulse of its community so that it doesn’t constantly find itself in situations like this. If it can’t be agile, then it needs to be smart. Sure, ANet takes things slow. It takes its time with things. But it doesn’t use that time it takes wisely.

They either need to up their reaction time, or they need to better work to not find themselves in these situations. And whether or not “people will always complain”, a lot of these messes that ANet has found itself in the past couple years could have been significantly reduced from the get go if they had simply paid better attention.

Or, you know, if they had communicated better, like O’brien said they would.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, FO4 can be expected to borrow from FO3, but we don’t know exactly where it’ll be the same and where it’ll be different beyond the few specific examples given.

And New Vegas, and Skyrim. A lot of Skyrim, actually.

If them telling you the game engine being utilized doesn’t tip you off to what you can expect? Then you haven’t been paying attention, yourself.

And that’s not even counting things like the expanded crafting system, being able to make your own settlements, or taking notice of particular landmarks in the videos.

Sorry, but from where I’m standing? The 30 some minutes of game footage that exists for FO4 tells me more than the countless piddly fluff filled dev articles have when it comes to HoT due to the general substance.

As for the release date? They can change that if need be. Rockstar did the same with GTAV- PC. But having that initial date? That tells me how far along they are with development. That tells me that, with only five months to go, that the game is mostly complete and everything is polish at this point.

ANet, so far as I can tell, doesn’t have a single clue when HoT is going to exist. They don’t even know what year it’s going to be a thing. There’s no telling where everything lies on the completion scale.

Ohoni.6057:

If you do know more about FO4 than about HoT, then you either have insider knowledge of FO4 that has not been made publicly available, or you haven’t been paying attention to HoT coverage, neither of which is ANet’s fault.

No, FO4’s small trailers and E3 appearance just managed to contain more substance. But, then, that’s what I’ve come to expect from Bethesda. After all, they’ve delivered Morrowind, FO3, Oblivion, New Vegas, and Skyrim.

ANet? Well, SAB sure was fun. It’s a shame they’re hellbent on ignoring the best content they’ve ever released. It’s what I’ve come to expect though.

Oh, and because I know this will come up from someone, just generally speaking: Yeah, we can also expect FO4 to be buggy and then also expect all of that to be fixed by the modding community because as always, the SKU development kit will be handed out with the game in some fashion. Can also expect a ton of mods.

Meanwhile, GW2 will continue to be the only MMO I’ve ever seen with an unmodifiable UI.

Ohoni.6057:

You can preorder AC: Syndicate or Fallout 4 right now, and we know almost nothing about those games, certainly less than about HoT.

Actually, I know far more about FO4 than I do about HoT.

For starters, I know when FO4’s official launch date is. That already tells me more about FO4 than HoT by a mile.

Behellagh.1468:

You may think it’s a problem but in business taking quick action is often more problematic than taking some time to consider the best alternatives.

Sure, but that requires said business to -actually- consider alternatives.

ANet…has a shoddy track record when it comes to having a finger on the pulse of the community. And it’s more than just “the community has so many differing voices”.

Commander Tags, the Traits and SAB threads, all the stuff that caused the O’brien post and a “promise” of better communication.

There are distinct areas where ANet…for lack of a better way to put it…just does not pay even slight attention to what’s going on around them when it comes to their community. I don’t know if it’s their communication policy, or that they exist in some weird echo chamber, or what.

But the big thing going on right now? With HoT? This strikes me as yet another community bomb that could have been disarmed well in advance and ANet simply chose not to.

Behellagh.1468:

There are two-ish issues here.

Snipped this part because I generally agree with the assessment.