Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department.

Per the specifications of the development and marketing team. Or are you going to tell me that each department just does its own thing and they never actually meaningfully communicate between one another?

Cause you know what, I could believe that considering messes like traits and SAB.

Vayne.8563:

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line.

Then they shouldn’t have called it a manifesto if they weren’t going to actually take it seriously.

Manifesto is not a word you throw around lightly thanks to certain events throughout history.

Vayne.8563:

Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ.

Because it was called a kittening manifesto. What the hell do you expect with marketing like that? ANet basically walked out and declared they were going to change how the MMO world MMO’d!

Vayne.8563:

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Anything the writers write, they write for ANet. The position they write for, and what mean, they mean for ANet. What the writers meant is what Anet meant, and what ANet meant was what the writers meant.

So when Colin says “I’m going to clarify this position and tell you guys that the anti-grind philosophy refers to gear grind”, that’s ANet’s position, that’s the writer’s position.

The writers wrote it for the company. The writers weren’t going to write something that the company didn’t agree with. Not when ANet hyped it up by calling it a kittening manifesto.

You don’t call something a manifesto and then turn around and go “Yeah, you know, whatever.”

At least, not if you want to be taken seriously.

Vayne.8563:

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

Whether or not you find the game grindy, the forum is definitely a grind. lol

Oh yeah, but your attempt at humor; that was totally helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Well, hey, if what they said back then is so much more important, then once again, ANet has still managed to break one of their selling points by introducing Ascended and taking away the ability of players to be in BiS gear by level 80.

Vayne.8563:

This your opinion and in my opinion it’s a misguided one.

I really don’t care what your opinion of anything I say is.

Vayne.8563:

Anet made a statement today about something they meant five years ago. It doesn’t change them explaining what they meant five years ago.

But it does still change what they meant five years ago. If that burns you so bad, then take it up with Colin. But I’ll note he has yet to come back in here and clarify his clarification. So, until he clarifies yet again for a clarification upon a clarification, what we have is that what they meant was gear grind and you are just going to have to deal with it, Vayne.

Vayne.8563:

In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.

Ah yes, because anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. Especially those people who take Colin’s current quote at face value. How dare they!

Then again, I forget. You’re Vayne, and your opinion is king above all others.

Vayne.8563:

if they said something repeatedly, and they did say it repeatedly, five years ago at around the time they produced the manifesto, it’s probably an accurate embellishment of the manifesto.

And should that be the case, Colin needs to come in here and clarify his clarification. Yet again.

Vayne.8563:

Five years later, they have to depend on imperfect memories

They have, according to you, documented quotes. For all the world to see.

Imperfect memories is a shoddy excuse.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t really blame Anet for being in damage control mode on this topic.

All I’ll say on this is that they wouldn’t need damage control if they hadn’t introduced the grind that is Ascended.

Vayne.8563:

But what they said back then is very likely what they meant, because they were after all explaining the manifesto at that time.

And yet, Colin says otherwise.

Take the inconsistency up with him.

Regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that what Colin says > what you say when it comes to ANet, the game, and their intentions.

Vayne.8563:

It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation.

It would be lovely if you could actually follow Colin’s quote.

Vayne.8563:

I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.

And all those things are irrelevant, as per Colin’s most recent clarification.

According to Colin, what was actually meant was gear grind.

Vayne.8563:

Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.

It’s also a fact that Colin has stated that anything involving their anti-grind philosophy was about gear grind.

Vayne.8563:

They gave the example of what they meant at that time.

And clearly they didn’t actually mean it since Colin has corrected us otherwise in this thread, telling us that, and I will repeat again, they meant gear grind.

Vayne.8563:

Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.

Colin’s quote isn’t “something else” when it says things like “way back before Gw2 shipped”, thus implying the manifesto, and “when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”, implying all the other times, in regards to Anet having a policy of no grind.

It is a quote that overrides earlier quotes. So it doesn’t matter that SB was brought up. According to Colin, they meant gear grind. They always meant gear grind.

Vayne.8563:

Evidence?

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

Vayne.8563:

Thanks.

You’re welcome.

Vayne.8563:

What’s more likely to be accurate, something a dev said about something that was said long ago at the time, or something a dev said about the same thing five years later.

How about you answer me this. There have been a number of times, where, when the manifesto is brought up, you have stated that it’s intent and wording should not be weighed as heavily because it is a document that is 3+ years old.

Well, we have something like that happening yet again. The clarification has been clarified. Colin has stated what was meant by their anti-grind philosophy, all the way back to the manifesto.

Why exactly does the same not apply this time? Why is it suddenly okay to not weigh the newest statement more heavily? Colin has stated, rather definitively, what they meant by anti-grind philosophy.

One wonders why you’re so desperate to hang onto their past statements this time, when you tend to like to argue for ignoring past statements in favor of whatever is most recent.

Cause I gotta say, if it’s suddenly okay to hold them to past comments again? I’d just like to once again throw into the ring the quote about how every player, even casual ones, should have BiS gear by level 80.

Vayne.8563:

While I can’t say what Colin does or doesn’t remember, I can be certain what I definitely remember.

And Colin apparently disagrees with what you remember. So once again, I ask you, who is more accurate?

The ANet dev? Or you?

Vayne.8563:

Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.

Once again, Vayne claims to know Colin better than Colin himself.

Vayne.8563:

What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?

Better question: Who is more likely to be accurate. The ANet developer, who is a lead dev, or Vayne?

Ayrilana.1396:

Go back 2 months before his post that updated/clarified what they meant in the manifesto. Where did they mention gear in the blog or or video? That’s what we’re talking about.

It’s also what Colin’s post is talking about.

What don’t you get? Colin has said they were talking about gear grind. Therefore they were talking about gear grind. End of story. If you find that inconsistencies crop up because of that, take it up with Colin.

Ayrilana.1396:

How about you read the manifesto blog and watch the video.

How about you read Colin’s quote.

Ayrilana.1396:

Where do they talk about grind in regards to gear. That’s what we’re talking about. Is it that difficult to understand?

Apparently as difficult as it is for you to understand Colin’s quote which very clearly says otherwise.

Ayrilana.1396:

I have absolutely no other idea on how to rephrase it so you’ll understand.

Funny, I’m thinking the very same thing with you.

Ayrilana.1396:

You’re not understanding what it is that’s being said even when bolded. I’ll say it again: we’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).

And I’ll caps lock for you since you don’t seem to be able to read, SO IS COLIN.

“When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”

Key words: ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, BACK BEFORE GW2 SHIPPED and WHEN IT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY REINFORCED SINCE THEN

In other words: EVERY TIME THEY TALKED ABOUT AN ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, IT WAS IN REGARDS TO GEAR.

So if you have a kittening problem with that interpretation, take it up with Colin BECAUSE IT’S HIS kittenING QUOTE.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely.

And yet you presume to know what Colin meant despite not being Colin, and despite Colin coming into this very thread and telling us all what was meant.

So like I said: Apparently you know better than Colin what Colin is talking about.

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.

So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.

I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.

I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.

More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.

Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.

Translation: I’m Vayne and I know better than Colin what Colin is talking about, despite Colin coming into this thread and clearing up what everyone was talking about.

Ayrilana.1396:

We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto.

So is Colin’s quote

Ayrilana.1396:

He’s adding onto what they were referring to in the manifesto.

He’s not “adding” onto anything. His quote spells it out clearly. They were talking about gear grind.

Ayrilana.1396:

What we are talking about is what is specifically stated in the manifesto.

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped,

Way back before the game shipped. i.e.: The manifesto.

Ayrilana.1396:

Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.

So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.

I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.

Vayne.8563:

That quote that you bolded now becomes the issue of contention. Anet said back in the day, that in most games you have to level up before you get to the good part of doing end game content, ie raids.

Ayrilana.1396:

They were talking about combat.

Ummmmmmmm,

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

Siphaed.9235:

I will say this:

They sell boosts in the Gem Store.

They sell Boon Fire bonfires in the Gem Store.

Both of these things cost gems and yet after a certain time frame are gone/done with.

This isn’t even comparable.

They aren’t marketed as being reusable. The coin was. One of the stated functions of the coin’s existence was “HEY, USE IT THE NEXT TIME SAB SHOWS UP AS WELL AS THIS TIME, GAIZ!”

Siphaed.9235:

There is no reasonable expectation for a refund on this item.

There absolutely is.

Siphaed.9235:

You got more than it’s value out of it when available and it will release at some point in the extended future

When. Tell me when. Give me a date. Do it. Tell me when this “extended future” is.

Siphaed.9235:

(and no, future doesn’t just simply mean weeks or months from now, but years can be included in that term).

That’s kind of the problem, chief.

Siphaed.9235:

There should be no sense of entitlement here

No, there absolutely should be a sense of entitlement here. The coin is currently not fulfilling one of its stated goals, because SAB is currently unavailable and continues to be unavailable.

Siphaed.9235:

-which is what requesting/demanding a refund is doing-, because delivery and fulfillment have been met.

Fulfillment has not been met, as the coin is supposed to be reusable, and in fact, is supposed to be usable past its initial run, and it currently is not.

Siphaed.9235:

Future use is bonus icing on the cake.

Future use is one of the stated baselines of the product, so no, it is not a bonus.

Stop defending something that is anti-consumer at its very core.

insanemaniac.2456:

actually in this case im keen to believe the grace period expired the first time you used the coin. typically the use of a gem store item precludes refunds.

Town Clothes.

This current situation best compares with what happened with town clothes.

lordkrall.7241:

Guhracie.3419:

…is this serious? On account of it being bought a long time ago? Holy kitten, I think my head just exploded.

YES. The fact that people have waited for a year and a half for the return of a festival that was initially run twice in a 5-month period and are now fed up with waiting for it, that seems like a way more legitimate reason to deny refunds.

You can’t be serious. You can’t. I refuse to believe that.

Yes, most things will only ever get refunded if refund was requested within a certain time actually.

Or do you seriously believe that you can demand a refund forever after you have bought something?

Sure, most items have a limited warranty. And in the case of items that are supposed to be usable more than once, those warranties can be a year +, and those year + ones tend to just be the “limited warranty”, which doesn’t even get into “full warranty” and “extended warranty”

So, once again. Nearing two years. Either SAB needs to happen and soon, whether that’s just worlds 1 and 2, or also new world 3 as well, or, you know, ANet needs to start handing out those refunds.

They’ll be gem refunds anyway, but it sure beats the coin continuing to be absolutely worthless.

insanemaniac.2456:

“30 days to return your purchase” is fairly standard retail practice. this situation doesnt fit exactly because of the expected several month hiatuses, but the logic is sound enough that a comparison isnt as ridiculous as you would have me believe.

calm down o.O

At what point is it okay to say that enough is enough, then?

They very clearly have no real intention of ever re-releasing SAB. The least they could do is let people have their gems back since the continue coin is clearly not serving its intended function.

The infinite continue coin was clearly meant to be used beyond it’s initial purchase during SAB: Back to School, and SAB itself was clearly meant to be a reoccurring activity, much like Queen’s Gauntlet or the holiday events.

Among other things, notable proof would be the SAB hub world itself, as well as the “travel map” between SAB zones, detailing four worlds.

At this point, it’s pretty obvious SAB isn’t going to be reinstated for a second year.

lordkrall.7241:

It sounds a bit weird. It would be much more logical to refuse on the grounds of the item being used or being bought a long time ago after all.

It wouldn’t, actually. Town clothes were bought long ago but ANet still offered refunds when their functionality was shifted and they were turned into tonics.

Considering the continue coin’s functionality has been shifted to be completely unusable for going on two years, and the best that can be gotten is “SAB will be back sometime in the future…when we feel like it” ?

Yeah, it’s time for a refund if all they intend to do is string people along with more of their “some time in the unknown future” garbage.

Shaogin.2679:

but demanding a refund for a product they were able to use while SAB was present and will be able to use again when it returns just doesn’t make sense.

But see, it actually has to return to be reusable, and considering it’s kitten near two years, now? I don’t care how many times they say “It’s coming back sometime in the future”, there is zero reason to believe them.

At some point, “the future” has to become “the present”, and two years is enough kitten time to have waited.

There is of course, the other logical course. Just re-instate worlds 1 and 2, so the coin is at least currently usable. The coding is all there. There’s no way they up and deleted the coding for the first two worlds. That would be madness.

But for some inane reason, ANet refuses to do anything that isn’t “Make sure SAB doesn’t exist, period”

lordkrall.7241:

Have anyone actually tried to get a refund on the coin?

Quite a few people have, and the info that comes back after they try has been that they get refused because THE FUTUUUUUUUUUUUUURE

Gaile Gray.6029:

There’s no new information on SAB at this time as far as a return date. You know it will come back at some point in the future, but there is no date to announce right now.

So then start refunding the infinite continue coin.

“It’ll be back in the unknown future” is not an acceptable reason to hold onto people’s money. If you can’t give an actual date, and you refuse to re-enable the first two worlds, then you need to start refunding the infinite continue coin.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ok you guys, settle down. You know better than to start The Rumour Game™!

:D

Wouldn’t have to play that game if you guys ever told us anything of substance.

Traits thread is still waiting on actual information. So is SAB thread.

Maybe tell everyone something before they’re all old and grey? Would be nice for once.

Andred.1087:

It seems the devs just meant for SAB to be a one-time event

The infinite continue coin says otherwise. (And it sure was nice of the devs to walk away with all that money and then never deliver the ability to use the coin again)
The fact that the box is STILL in Rata Sum says otherwise.
The houses within the hub that indicate four worlds says otherwise.

The only thing keeping even the first two worlds out of GW2 at this point is ANet’s unbelievable disconnect from its playerbase and the stupidity that comes with it.

Iason Evan.3806:

“Guys we are merging Conquest and our new, exciting, super fun mode ‘Stronghold!’”

How did build templates not get thrown to the top of a list at that point?

There are f2p games with templates where it’s not even important to have access to switching builds quickly.

Guild Wars 1 had build templates and separate queues for separate pvp formats.

Poor form.

We have been asking for these for years too because they are a good idea.

Don’t worry, you’ll get to pay extra for all those things that should have been baseline just like the current crop of HoT features in the next expansion!

Are you not hyped!?

They’re never ready.

I’ll believe SAB when it’s actually in the game, again.

Til then, it’s nothing but smoke.

Kudos to Joe on getting an interview, though.

Just a quick heads up to people in this thread:

“Working as intended” =/= “Working well for a game or its players”

Please stop confusing the two.

Harny.6012:

Social aspect of MMOs makes them a lifestyle to huge part of the player base of ANY MMO out there. Deal with it

No

Harny.6012:

and stop being so aggressive

Also no

Harny.6012:

while discussing “just a badly designed game”.

I said designing a game to act like our reality is bad design. The point of games is for entertainment, to escape the “unfaireness” of real life. So this live within your means crap? No, screw that. That’s not fun. That’s just real life. And I don’t buy and play games to experience real life.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Why should your lack of ability to manage your emotions be my problem?

You asked why, I answered. Not my problem you don’t like my response.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

MMO is lifestyle,

No

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

If you want to have fun and enjoy yourself in guild wars 2, aet your goals and live with it.

So, treat a game like real life?

Yeah, no. Screw that. Games shouldn’t feel like real life. That’s bad game design.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

As you may have read in the message I wrote.. I AM having fun and enjoying myself doing exactly what is infuriating to you,

And I care about you enjoying it just as much as you care about my not enjoying it.

Which is not at all.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Get yourself some Jedi training, dear.

Better idea. Take your condescension and your Jedi training and shove them up your kitten .

DavidH.7380:

However, this isn’t some theoretical addition to the game. We’ve had ascended gear for two years, we have a lot of players who’ve invested a lot of time and effort to obtain it,

So? Didn’t stop ANet from wiping the progress of fractal runners back down to 30 for leaderboards that never even appeared.

DavidH.7380:

and A’net has given no indication that they think this is anything other than working as intended.

ANet also swore up and down that Final Rest was working as intended.

DavidH.7380:

So, what I don’t understand is why some people think their preferences justify negating two years of history and invalidating the work of vast numbers of other players, despite A’net apparently disagreeing, simply because a different A’net game worked like that.

Well again, the original intent of this game was that BiS was easily obtained, as well. The problem is that they did a whiplash 180 to begin with. Ascended shouldn’t even exist.

And as for invalidating that work? Again, I’d just like to point you over to fractal leaderboards.

DavidH.7380:

I know it isn’t what you wanted, but at least A’net recommitted recently to not introducing new gear tiers past ascended and the accessories are pretty easy to get.

Accessories isn’t full gear. It’s not the same, it will never be the same as being fully kitted out.

As for their “No more gear tiers”? Doesn’t much mean anything to promise it this time when they already failed to keep that ideal alive the first time. The damage is already done, and will never be repaired until it’s far easier to obtain Ascended.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

The idea of the game is to be playing for years… But no, everyone has to have it NOW NOW NOW. Why?

Because I don’t want to spend years obtaining armor through something as infuriating as crafting or RNG. I want to, you know, actually have fun and enjoy myself.

Tao.5096:

Ascended set is fairly easy to obtain..

Well, then. Since it’s so easy to obtain, feel free to send me 10k silk and other such mats.

Come on, prove it. Send me the stuff if it’s that easy to craft.

Tao.5096:

It’s also a necessary laurel and gold sink..

lolno

Tao.5096:

If you want it, then craft it, if not, then what’s the point of complaining?.

Because I want it without having to craft it? Because I’d like for gear to remain easy to get, as it was supposed to be? Because I don’t agree with its current implementation and wish for it to change?

Tao.5096:

There is a countless amount of people who geared all their characters in ascended gear without need for grinding..

Citation needed.

Tao.5096:

My point was that Ascended gear isn’t a mandatory.
Exotic from WvW vendor is more than enough.

I will decide what is and isn’t needed for myself, thank you very much. There is certain stuff that I can’t complete without ascended, so yeah, ascended is needed.

That aside, it really doesn’t matter whether it isn’t or is needed. BiS is supposed to be easily obtainable. That is the idea that ANet set forth. They went back on that decision, and they have never done anything to help rectify it.

As for those two collections: One relies on RNG, the other on completing an entire seasons worth of content and then some. What a wonderful grind.

I’d rather just wait for ANet to eventually cave. I mean, that’s why they made Ascended in the first place. They caved to all the gear progression nuts that decided to come and ruin a game that wasn’t supposed to have gear progression. So, it’s only a matter of time before they cave again, and we finally get back to being the game this was supposed to be.

Tao.5096:

No one forces you to craft it.

So then how am I supposed to get it if I don’t craft it?

Rely on RNG? The RNG that gave a guy a single piece of Ascended after they opened some 11 thousand champ bags?

DavidH.7380:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

Players should not get the top level gear for just showing up.

Yes they should. BiS gear is supposed to readily available and easily obtained in this game. This isn’t a gear progression game. Ascended should be far easier to obtain.

You want BiS to be hard to get? Then take your gear progression kitten and go back to Wildstar and WoW. I am sick and tired of you lot ruining this game.

I wonder why it always seems to be the people who claim it isn’t about gear that get the most twisted over gear?

What I’m twisted over is ANet doing a 180 and turning the game into yet another WoW clone.

If I wanted WoW, I’d pay the sub for WoW. This game was supposed to be different. BiS was supposed to be readily and easily obtainable. But now it isn’t. Now it’s RNG or craft your eyes out for BiS.

So hip hip hooray. We can be WoW-lite!

I agree with the OP, put the rest of Ascended into the laurel vendor for like 40-50 laurels and be done with this farce. There’s no reason to make it 100 laurels or more. If anything, it should cost far less mats to craft Ascended. 10800 silk is not reasonable.

Ayrilana.1396:

Players should not get the top level gear for just showing up.

Yes they should. BiS gear is supposed to readily available and easily obtained in this game. This isn’t a gear progression game. Ascended should be far easier to obtain.

You want BiS to be hard to get? Then take your gear progression kitten and go back to Wildstar and WoW. I am sick and tired of you lot ruining this game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

First, the relevant crafting had to go to 500 . . . which was not cheap until the recent glut of snowflakes.

I’d just like to note on this point: It’s still not cheap.

Weaponcrafting 400-500 costs ~126g currently.
Tailoring isn’t -as- bad, at ~50g

Both are still very expensive prices, though.

I can bring Engineering 1-700 for far less gold than either of those in WoW, and the economy on most WoW servers is completely shot. (And Engineering is one of the most expensive, and yet funnily enough, most useless crafting professions)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I suspect the price in components of Ascended Armor and Weapons was somewhat related to watching people turn in components to the vendors during those two events. And as such, that is what calibrated the cost.

I really wish they’d stop calibrating costs of crafting mats based on whether there’s a flood in the market or not. I remember they did that with the second halloween event for things like the mini bloody prince.

It wasn’t fun, at all.

But they at least lowered candy corn requirements for 2014. I only wish they’d repeat that kind of thing with stuff like Ascended. Nothing about collecting 10800 silk is fun.

naiasonod.9265:

And before some smug little part time burger flipper tried to tell me how lazy that must mean I am,

I’m a part time burger flipper and I wholly agree with you.

I don’t play games to work. That’s what a job is for.

Though if ANet wants to pay me to play their game, then sure. I’ll get on their gear grind locomotive and do work.

Vayne.8563:

First of all they said this recently in an interview.

I know, I’ve seen the interview. And I really don’t care if it was an interview -or- recent.

They also said in an interview that things like the shooting gallery were ready, in game, and available. The shooting gallery was given as an example of things that they talk about because those things are definitely, positively, in the game.

ANet putting something in an interview doesn’t mean much of anything, because later down the line they can just change their mind, anyway.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t really know about ascended, because Anet did also say that ascended was mentioned by them pre launch and had always been meant to be in the game.

Which is why everything in game up to that point suggested it was nothing more than an ill-thought tacked on thing? It was PR spin, nothing more. It was as much PR spin as Mike O’Brien’s post about “more and better communication while keeping hold of a policy that would never allow more and better communication”

Vayne.8563:

However, Anet has kept most of their words. If I was dealing with a person and 90% of the time they kept their word, I would consider those people quite honest.

And then they change their mind and decide the best thing for the game is another tier of gear.

Like they’ve already done once before.

You can look at quantity all you want. I’d rather look at the quality of that “honesty”, and said quality is rather…poor.

Vayne.8563:

It’s amazing that we hold developers to higher standards than our own familes.

Well, one is a business that exists solely to make money. The other is a unit of people related through blood, circumstance, and (hopefully good) feelings that rely on one another to exist in this world.

Gee, I wonder which one I’m going to give more leeway to.

Vayne.8563:

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Except things change, and decisions change, so we may well see another tier of gear. After all, there wasn’t supposed to be gear past Exotic, either. That’s why Legendaries originally carried the same stat levels as Exotic Gear.

ANet’s word isn’t really worth a lot, quite frankly.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see the contraction that you are talking about.

Anet’s “no-grind philosophy” includes BiS gear. Ascended is BiS gear. But obtaining Ascended right now is a grind.

Ergo, ANet has contradicted its “no-grind philosophy”.

It doesn’t matter if you personally need said gear or not. All that matters, per your own arguments, is ANet’s intention. Their intention is that BiS gear is easily obtained by everyone. Their intention is that gear not be grindy. Clearly their intention and view is that gear shouldn’t be grindy because gear is something that players need. Ascended is gear, therefore Ascended is needed according to ANet.

But so long as Ascended exists in its current form, they have contradicted their philosophy.

Your complete and utter inability to see the contradiction that is staring you right in the face doesn’t mean the contradiction isn’t there. I’ll be able to stop running in circles when you open your eyes.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t agree that Ascended gear was introduced for flighty people,

You can disagree all you want, but it was introduced for the people that want gear progression in their games. At the time of its introduction, those were the people leaving the game.

So at the time of its introduction, ANet catered to the “flighty” people. The people that were leaving just because Exotic was the final tier, and it was a final tier that was easy to get.

If those people weren’t flighty, then neither are the current people.

Obtena.7952:

If players are flighty enough to leave over the questionable claim that the game is grindy, those players likely have other issues pushing them out the door. It’s a bad move to placate them.

It’s flighty to leave a game that can’t seem to choose a vision and keep to said vision? It’s flighty to leave a game that claims it wants to have a no-grind philosophy, but completely contradicts said philosophy with things like Ascended Gear?

One must wonder what you consider beyond flighty to be then.

Obtena.7952:

I’m on the fence there.

Per your own words, you shouldn’t be. Ascended was introduced because of “flighty” people. And you don’t want ANet to cater to “flighty” people.

But they already have catered to flighty people! So I say bring on the flighty catering! Maybe we can get the game back to its original intended goals!

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

You’re right.

Which is why Ascended shouldn’t exist in the first place at all. Because that’s not the market that ANet was ever targeting to begin with.

But ANet targeted them, and now we’re stuck with the Ascended Grind in a “no-grind philosphy” game. And as long as Ascended exists in its current form, we’re going to have yet another MMO where you still wind up grinding for BiS. Which this game was not supposed to be.

And, for the record, those people currently with one foot out the door that you don’t want ANet targeting? A good number of them are the original targets of this game. Not the people who want gear progression and grindy, time consuming BiS gear.

Obtena.7952:

I could care less what they say because my reality is when I log in and play the game and see what I can do without full Ascended setups.

Then why did you even post in this thread to begin with? Seems to me the only one who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing was yourself, since you apparently don’t care about any of this in the first place.

Also it’s funny that you’re now saying you couldn’t care less what ANet says when just a moment ago you were arguing that it’s what ANet says that ultimately matters.

Obtena.7952:

I do like that irony but it’s a little out of context. The fact remains that Anet has not done anything ingame that requires me to have full Ascended gear

But by your own arguments, that’s irrelevant, because what matters is ANet’s design decisions and intent.

Obtena.7952:

and therefore, there is no reason for any player to subject themselves to grinding it out.

So what happens when ANet does give a reason for people to subject themselves to it? (Because apparently Fractals isn’t a good enough reason because…reasons)

If Ascended exists without ever being “necessary”, then why does it even exist in the first place? If Ascended serves a purpose, then it exists and is as such necessary for said purpose, and as such, is needed.

I mean, I don’t understand your argument anymore. The game developers themselves say they want people to have BiS gear, and yet that’s not enough for you, despite you saying it’s the developers decisions about the game that ultimately matter in terms of need vs want.

If they intend for all players to have BiS gear, then clearly Ascended is considered a need by their perspective.

Either ANet is the be all end all, or they aren’t. Which is it?

Obtena.7952:

What do they actually mean when they say they intend for everyone to have Ascended gear? That doesn’t tell me they want everyone to rush out and grind it in the next week …

It tells me that Ascended isn’t supposed to be a grind. But Ascended is very clearly a grind. You can’t look at the sheer amount of silk needed, especially for Light Ascended Armor, and tell me that isn’t a grind.

Obtena.7952:

They can expect it, it doesn’t mean players need it to access content or be successful in the game. Those are two different things.

But according to you, all that matters is ANet’s intention as far as things like grind and what is needed or not needed.

And their intention is that everyone has Ascended, because it’s BiS. The fact that some or most players don’t “need” it is wholly irrelevant. Anet’s intent is that all players have BiS gear, and they consider Ascended BiS.

Obtena.7952:

That’s a personal perception issue then. It’s irrelevant if someone expects players to get Ascended,

Except the ones expecting players to get Ascended is ANet themselves, as per Colin’s statements, so it’s perfectly relevant.

phys.7689:

there is a daily craft limit, one can assume you should be getting enough materials to do this once per day.

how much loot you are swimming in is irrelevant, its what you can do with said loot. I ll tell you that a month of 1-2 hour per day play will not give you enough resources to craft full ascended, unless that 1-2 hour per day play happens to be the most effecient farms in the game.

To add to this, people need to remember that before you can even start thinking about making Ascended Gear, you also have to get through reaching 500 in your Crafting Skill.

But hey, if people are going to come in and claim it’s so easy to make gold and such, then they can feel free to mail me 500 gold.

Brahmincorle.1264:

You are comparing 5 man dungeons with raids dude that is not fair.

No, I’m using the subject of raids, since that’s what ANet, if the CDI is anything to go by, will be working on, and open world raids are where we’ve been seeing increased difficulty and gear requirements, and are where said requirements would further show up in the future, if anywhere, since ANet doesn’t do dungeons anymore.

So quite frankly? I don’t care if people are soloing old dungeons while naked. It is completely irrelevant to my point that newer content is going to get harder and harder, because that’s what progression junkies want. And in doing so, Ascended isn’t going to be “optional” one day.

Aside from that, Obtena said people were soloing team content. That’s all they said.

Maybe they should have said people were soloing dungeons instead. Either way, though, like I said: I don’t care. I’m talking about raids cause that’s what ANet is working on.

As for your romp through WoW, soloing dungeons in epic gear at level?

Solo it in greens at level in a non-tank spec, then tell me of your great success and maybe I’ll consider it relevant, since you guys are trying to make the argument that the “epic” gear isn’t needed at all.

Obtena.7952:

Real game vets would think this game is a joke in terms of grind level.

And again, who decides who a “real game vet” is?

You?

No. I still don’t think so.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

You realized the wrong thing, then. Ascended and its grind is easily one of the worst things you guys ever introduced to this game. Nothing about having to grind and slog around for stats is fun, Colin. Nothing.

Obtena.7952:

I guess you’re experience is simply too limited to have sufficient perspective to speak on the topic then. You are aware that MMO’s have been around since mid 90’s?

Perfectly aware. I’ve played Korean grinders with less grind and RNG than this game. I have all the perspective I need to speak on this subject, not that you get to decide who gets to speak on it to begin with.

Obtena.7952:

If you simply compare GW2 to what exists right now, then you don’t have a very relevant baseline.

So how far back does one have to go for a relevant baseline? And who decides said baseline?

You?

No, I don’t think so.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams. Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

You said people were soloing content meant for teams. I asked you who was soloing the raids. You said noone, cause those are meant for teams.

Sooo…which is it, then? Either people are soloing team content or they aren’t.

Funny, though, casue this game looks like every other MMO on the market to me in terms of grind and RNG, especially with ascended gear.

And I’m not a noob, so looks like you’re wrong.

Obtena.7952:

Good thing we have a long way to go then because current raids aren’t even geared to exotics. When people solo content meant for teams … you know the bar in the game is set pretty low.

Care to tell me who has been soloing Tea Kettle and Worms, then?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.

You forget the stat boost. 5% is 5%. The moment raids are geared to ascended, that means that exotic gear is 5% less efficient.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

We don’t know that yet, it’s impossible to tell at this point. But I doubt it. Anet only added ascended gear because ex wow players kept whining for gear grind. And I think anet found a decent compromise. Adding a new gear tier for the people who think this is wow, but making it not powerful enough to be mandatory so everyone else isn’t forced to grind for it.

But one gear tier isn’t enough to keep the ex-wow players around. If they want gear progression and raids and etc, then they’re going to want those things in a capacity that matters. They’ll want gear progression, and they’ll want said progression to actually matter. They’ll want raids that are actually difficult and require higher tiers of gear.

If ANet actually wants to keep them around, then it’s inevitable. Waffling around won’t do ANet any good.

What ANet did was kitten in either direction. It’s a small enough gain that it’s not going to satisfy progression players, but just enough of a gain that it completely invalidates the idea of casual players having BiS by level 80, and not having to worry about exotic eventually being truly subpar.

All it’s done is create problems.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

But yeah, you are not entirely wrong. Anet made gated content when they made fractals, so they could do it again with raids. Lets hope they won’t.

I certainly hope they won’t as well.

I guess the difference between us in that regard is that I don’t have faith in them to not do that.

Also sorry I missed this part of your post. Dunno how I didn’t see it originally.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

At least Ascended gear is something we can ignore without getting severely penalized for it.

Until that Raid CDI goes somewhere at least. Because the current “raids” won’t satisfy the people that want raids in this game. It may take years, but the genie has been released from its prison. At some point, not having ascended is going to become a gate to content as Anet raises the difficulty.