I think we are coming at this from different angles. I am ok with more access to PvE, but less to WvW. PvE is made to expand as needed as possible, WvW is not built that way. Therefore there is more impact there.
We probably are coming at this from different angles. I think I get what you’re saying, overall.
My point is only that, if you have to restrict things to this level to make something free, well, then how free is it, really? And is it really a good idea to make it free, then, if so many restrictions are necessary?
Again, SWTORs restrictions don’t work because they’re good restrictions. They’re absolutely horrid restrictions. They work because Star Wars is a household name rivaled only by Star Trek when it comes to SPAAAAAAACE
Guild Wars doesn’t have that kind of notoriety.
I do not understand how not using the TP alienates you from the community?
The TP is one of the few areas that actually manages to reward players in any meaningful way, due to the heavy RNG in the game, and the low amount of overall coin from anything that isn’t a specific dungeon run.
When you remove the ability to use the TP, you remove a major reward source.
I asked you about the community restriction, you tried to change the subject. Are you implying that you have no answer to my question?
Er, no, I apparently misread your question, and apparently didn’t segment my points properly?
I’m trying to say that, with a game like GW2, to let people play for free, you have to shove people off in a corner and only let them kind of taste the game, rather than doing what you claim, and actually letting them play the game without a price tag.
This means removing them from PvP, removing them from WvW, removing them from the TP (which removes income source, reward source, as well as more materials being available to the TP itself), chat restrictions, etc.
This is a community driven game, so it does no good if you remove free players from the community.
I don’t know, I guess I can’t answer your question in a way you’ll find acceptable?
I guess I don’t get why the TP portion of what I’m saying matters so much to you?
I wouldn’t grant access to WvW. Level caps also would have been reasonable. I would also ask ANet to share details on the trading post. Whispers are another that is potentially are going to be an issue.
So in other words, you’re okay with free players existing…so long as they can’t actually play the game.
Do you WvW today? If so, what server?
I’m Devonas Rest, and no, I do not. I’m not sure if Devona’s even has a WvW community any more.
Why do you ask?
I do not understand how not using the TP alienates you from the community?
The TP is one of the few areas that actually manages to reward players in any meaningful way, due to the heavy RNG in the game, and the low amount of overall coin from anything that isn’t a specific dungeon run.
When you remove the ability to use the TP, you remove a major reward source.
I wouldn’t grant access to WvW. Level caps also would have been reasonable. I would also ask ANet to share details on the trading post. Whispers are another that is potentially are going to be an issue.
So in other words, you’re okay with free players existing…so long as they can’t actually play the game.
Because it will still get people to try the game out.
It really won’t.
SWTOR lives and thrives despite its heavy, HEAVY restrictions by the grace of the name Star Wars and the legacy that holds, as well as it having a fairly strong single player mode through the
GW2 is a three year old game that failed to be the esports hero it wanted so bad to be, and it’s a game that thrives off group content. And now its F2P option is one step away from being another SWTOR, without the name hype.
I understand full well why the restrictions exist, because of how economy/TP focused they decided to make this game. And that’s why this F2P won’t work. In order to prevent free players from disrupting an already fragile economy, you have to remove them from that economy as much as possible, and to some extent, you have to remove them from the community as a whole as well.
But when you do that, you’re removing them from the game that you’re telling them they can supposedly play.
It’s basically a demo version,
Then they should have stuck with a 14 free trial system. Or a “to level x” trial system.
Wow, look at all those restrictions put in place just to be able to play for free.
If you have to lock the game up that much, why even bother?
Actually we need more restrictions.
Like what? Cut their xp gain in half? Completely block their ability to chat? Make it so they can’t loot anything at all?
If they have to add even more restrictions, then they need to scrap the F2P idea, entirely, because any more restrictions and the game will become punishing to play if you’re a free player.
We’re already entering into SWTOR territory. The only thing they haven’t locked away are the hide shoulder/helm/glove slots.
Wow, look at all those restrictions put in place just to be able to play for free.
If you have to lock the game up that much, why even bother?
I am not sure if anything like this has ever been done?
SWTOR F2P
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
The free accounts would have to be prohibited from buying and selling on the trading post, emailing, limits on chat and whispering, no posting on the forums, no putting items in or out of guild banks and no daily login rewards
In other words: The SWTOR approach.
A question to everyone that is watching this thread:
What’s your opinion on time-exclusive rewards?For example, challenging group content might reward SKINA, for a limited time, until players beat it, until players reach a certain speed, or simply after a set amount of time (or any other system really), that exclusive stops being exclusive and is added to other types of content. Then, another piece of exclusive reward is added to new content and the cycle continues.
Could work. Personally I would suggest timed in that case, and no longer than 2 months.
I can’t say I find it satisfying, per say, but certainly better than nothing.
Though I doubt most people that want exclusive rewards behind challenging content would go for it, since that takes away the exclusivity.
I was just correcting the Invincible fact; doesn’t mean everything he said was wrong. There’s no reason to rub it in when somebody makes a mistake. WoW did have some bad RNG. In the first expansion, The Burning Crusade the final boss of Black Temple dropped a set of Legendary weapons called the Warglaives of Azzinoth; independently dropping, extremely low drop rate and very powerful. However, you needed the completed set of both the main hand and the offhand to unlock its full power. From what I remember, it was impossible for both to drop at the same time; if you got the main hand, it meant you would not get an offhand and vice versa. Black Temple was a brutally long instance, and we pretty much ran it for like two years nonstop because those weapons remained the best weapons for the classes that could use them until the end of the expansion.
It was very important to have good gear, the best gear, for when the next tier of raiding came out. For anyone that was in a guild that needed these weapons, they will not think fondly upon them.
Please don’t remind me of those things. Until just recently (read: WoD), I mained a Rogue.
Exactly, when you are shwon to be wrong you insisted otherwise, which leaves taint in the pool. Your then assessment continued to be in error and you failed to notice the reason Invincible was turn to RNG to specificly STOP everyone from getting it
For one, Invincible was a side comment at most to the discussion I was having with Laokoko
For the other, that it’s RNG was my point. Yes, due to its original 100% drop rate, it is an incorrect example, but the point itself still stands that hard content in WoW is littered with RNG and low drop rates that can have you farming forever without anything good to show for it.
The Invincible example was incorrect, and I’m saying the point still stands, so here, have some other examples. Don’t worry, I made sure to do my research this time.
Ashes of Alar from TBC. No info found ever detailing it as a guaranteed drop while it was current. Has always had a whopping 2% drop, if not lower.
Or how about Thunderfury from Molten Core? Good luck getting both pieces to create that item. Once again, no information I have found suggests those two pieces were ever a guaranteed drop at any point in time.
There, happy? Care to address my point, yet?
I’m not taking pot shots I’m just keeping the record straight so false information doesn’t taint the argument.
No, you are taking pot shots, because you didn’t keep anything straight. Nokaru was the one that corrected the information. You just barged into it and copped an attitude with me when I apparently didn’t respond to Nokaru in a manner that you liked.
He just explained to you when you did it as current content
STOP
I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.
So why are you bringing up RNG when it was a 100% drop rate?[/quote]
Because it currently is an RNG drop, and that’s how I knew it, and that’s how I saw people talk about in game and on forums.
Nobody I ever saw or interacted with ever went “Yeah, it was this awesome 100% drop”
I was apparently incorrect to trust that. I’m kittening sorry, okay?
Doesn’t change the fact WoW is a game of RNG. Doesn’t change that the content that I did personally take part in still stuck me with a serious drought. Doesn’t change the fact that all content in MMOs, hard or otherwise, either has massive RNG or massive grind/time sinks because they want either your money or participation, which was my main point when responding to Laokoko.
Would you care to add anything to those points? Or did you just feel like putting on your snark boots to take a pot shot at me?
He just explained to you when you did it as current content
[/quote]
STOP
I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
Oh really? Because Invincible was a guaranteed drop if you defeated the final boss, the Lich King on heroic 25 man. Every person in my raid obtain one, even new recruits. It dropped one per week, guaranteed and it was split amongst a raid of 25 people. After the level cap was raised to 85, the mount’s drop rate was significantly reduced because it could now solo the raid.
So yeah, not sure what your point is. If they were in the game since WoTLK, this is irrelevant if they weren’t actually doing heroic Lich King on 25 man.
Congrats! You had a non-sucky guild!
That aside, my point is that RNG is a cruel mistress.
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
All I can say is the grass is always greener on the other side. You are complaining about exclusive skins, while there are probably tones of great skins you can buy from the trading the post.
But that does me no good if I don’t like any of those skins. Those skins aren’t actually great if I don’t like them.
And the people running the hard content are probably complaining about the gold they make is too small, and they can get similar if not better skin from the TP if they run silverwaste.
Which is why I keep saying that people should be able to do the content they enjoy to get the items they like!
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
50 times is like 1 year of raiding. If you ran 1 year of raiding without getting anything and is still content. You are a better man than me.
and dont’ give me that I raid a couple of times and didn’t get anything. A couple of times is not a year of raiding.
Then it’s a good thing I didn’t say anything like that.
Also it was admittedly in the 30s, but that’s still about 7 (7.5 I think) months where I obtained zero shinies and zero progression.
Was still not fun.
Your point on what. The cough cough great exclusive rewards those hard content gives.
Then what would be a great exclusive reward for fractals? What will it take to satisfy people that want challenging content and unique rewards behind challenging content?
Cause so far it seems the answer is NOTHING. Which begs the question why ANet should even bother.
What is it you imagine when you hear the words unique rewards and challenging content. Because I will tell you right now, whatever it is, it is NOT what ANet is known for producing.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
Think his point is that everything you do in GW2 is for rewards. If there were no rewards, you wouldn’t do the content you currently “enjoy” either.
For the most part? Most likely, aside from some JPs and SAB. I would do those regardless.
But a lot of this content, no matter how you slice the difficulty, is really, REALLY shallow. I mean more shallow than WoW content in some instances. And I don’t just mean shallow in mechanics. I mean overall. Story, mechanics, the works.
But again, I’m not saying that I want easy content and I will only be satisfied if that content gives unique rewards that nobody else can get (in the event that challenge seekers somehow can’t do easy content).
But by wanting unique rewards put behind challenging content, challenge seekers are saying that they want people to be left out.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should not be added to challenging content, in my opinion.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should be added anywhere, in my opinion. In fact, I’ve barely seen a reason beyond “Because I won’t do the content unless the item is unique”
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
That’s…my point.
Which mmorpg have people run the same “hard cotnent” 50 times on average for people to get “something” they want. Hack which mmorpg have people run the same content 50 times.
Every single one that goes for the raiding end game? Are you new to MMOs?
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
That’s kind of my point.
Which mmorpg have people run the same “hard cotnent” 50 times on average for people to get “something” they want. Hack which mmorpg have people run the same content 50 times.
Every one of them that has raids, WoW being the worst offender when it comes to rewards, once again, because RNG. WoW basically pioneered the “run this 1 million times and maybe never see the item, enjoy your 2% drop rate!”
And, well, GW2, clearly, does stuff like that, too.
You mean TA aetherblade and wurm?
Probably because the reward is terrible.
But it’s exactly the type of reward the challenge junkies are asking for. It is account bound, unique, and rare items that can only be obtained from that content.
Kind of like how fractal are. Even though all those give exclusive rewards, they have to deal with RNG.
Of course they deal with RNG.
You really think they’re just gonna drop that stuff the first time? No MMO has ever done that, challenging content or otherwise. In fact, challenging content is more likely to have RNG because that’s the only way to keep the item rare short of designing content that only 10 or so people can complete, ever.
People rather do the easy content which give guaranteed and better rewards.
Define better rewards, though. I would think that a couple champ bags with measly pittance of greens and blues and a tiny amount of coin would be far less desireable than the Wurmslayer stuff. You know, if people actually cared about exclusive rewards and challenge and all that jazz.
If all the rewards is removed from the easy content. You wont’ do it yourself. At least not repetitively.
Your point?
i paint, and i play music, its still challenging.
Because you haven’t mastered it.
and doing an equation is still more challenging than trial and error to solve equations.
I don’t get this example.
Working out also requires consistent effort, and it doesnt really get any easier. aside from the curve going from no work out, to working out consistently.
Sure it does. It’s challenging at first to run a mile. Then you become good at it, and it becomes easy.
Working out is only a constant challenge if you constantly up yourself to the next stage that is hard, again, and again. If you keep lifting 10lb weights, then lifting 10lbs stops being a challenge.
and yea, i guess i dont like rewards that much, because i just end up not doing much content at all.
Sounds like you like neither the rewards nor the content.
the content i most enjoyed doing was fractals and SAB but people got cheesy with fractals, spamming the easiest instabilities for progress, so that is less entertaining
Then get together with people who don’t do that and keep doing fractals.
, and SAB no longer exists.
Don’t remind me.
dont get me wrong there are other entertaining things, certain jump puzzles, certain dynamic events if they arent over crowded, etc, but most i have either done to death
Right, you’re burnt out on them. I get that. But that wouldn’t have changed with challenging content, because you’d eventually burnt out on that. That’s an issue only solvable by NEW content.
This is a fun quote, you did in fact sign up for the competition
No, I did not. That would only be true if the open world had PVP enabled, and it does not. WVW and PVP are instanced areas. You cannot force me to compete in them because I can literally walk away from them, even so far as exiting the game.
Next you’ll tell me that we’re in a competition for who can log in and exit the game faster!
The competition is in YOUR head and nobody elses’
, your presence in the game is automatic participation. (Like in say EVE, you may not want your ship to be blown up but someone can come along and do it anyway like it or not because you are in the game.)
EVE is a horrible example because it is strictly a PVP environment. You’re SUPPOSED to compete with people in EVE, that’s why it’s set up the way it is.
The only thing I did by signing up for the game is sign up for the game. I don’t even have to set foot in PVP, as such, I am not competing. This isn’t the Hunger Games.
Your argument on rewards is essentially you signed up for a triathlon, have decided you only want to do the cycling part but still expect the reward for full participation.
No, my argument is that I signed up for a series of events that aren’t even competitive, and actually expect me to work together with other people.
A school example, you’ve decided you don’t like maths and are not going to participate in it. You are now locked out of a whole range of future career options and will have a lower overall score. Your passive decision not to participate still has consequences.
Math as a class isn’t a competition, though. Your school example makes no freaking sense.
I mean that in a purely statistical way, your combined wealth, quality of life etc are objectively to a higher standard then theirs. Thus you are in that sense “beating” them.
But again, I’m not. Because I’m not trying to beat them at anything. I didn’t get the computer to have a better life than them. I didn’t obtain wealth, or quality of life, or any of that to be better than anyone or to compete with anyone.
I’m not beating them in a statistical way because beating them implies I was trying to compete with them when it came to those things.
The kind of competition you are trying to foster is the reason the US government is such a joke. They’re so busy trying to beat the other party that they forgot they were supposed to be working for the country. Your type of competition is entirely degenerate.
Again you’re interpreting competition as a very “in your face” affair. Competition occurs passively too.
No it doesn’t. Competition by it’s very nature is “in your face”, that’s WHY it’s a competition. Because two people are competing against one another for a similar goal because only one of them can actually attain that goal because there is only one of that goal.
You have to compete for first place because only one person can be in first.
No formal world firsts? really I must have hallucinated all that excitement over which group would be first to kill Teq, TT , The marionette etc, where devs were reporting on it.
Sure, they reported on it.
And then did nothing else. There are no “Feats of Strength” in this game. There are no titles denoting world first. There are no achievements for being world first. there are no rewards for being world first.
Even in the non-formal section , first to get a legendary, hit certain achivements, certain ranks on PvP etc, were all things that got attention.
And that’s all they got. Attention. Five minutes of fame.
I had a look through “The game” section of the website, and the only mention of cooperative, is specifically to dynamic events " This creates an atmosphere where players naturally cooperate instead of competing with one another. The more the merrier!" Perhaps you took that to include the whole game?
Dynamic events, dungeons, nodes, world bosses, the entirety of the non-instanced world, basically.
The cooperation aspect still exists but is mostly relegated to the lower end content because it’s less exciting,and there’s no risks.
Really? Cause fractals and TT and all that “fun” stuff are still very much cooperative. You aren’t gonna solo TT on your own.
It’s not a compromise and it’s not win win, in the end it achieves your goal completely (getting the reward you want) while destroying your opponents goal (Maintaining at least some level of uniqueness/exclusivity on rewards in relation to specific content.
So in other words, I was right, from the start.
I said originally the people that don’t like this idea are the ones that want to be special snowflakes. They want to be unique, they want to have that which others do not or cannot have to prove how awesome they are.
And you just confirmed that.
But people swore up and down, up and down, that no. It was about the journey. It was about the challenge. It wasn’t about being better than someone.
But every time you bring up competition, you’re proving that IT IS about just that. It’s about being better than someone else. All the while claiming that no, that wasn’kitten
If you had just admitted it from the beginning, a lot of time could have been saved.
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more?
Because logic. Because if you cared about both equally or even close to equally, you would in fact choose to do challenging content to get the reward. So if you’re choosing instead to do the easier content, then either the reward matters more than the content portion to you, the content isn’t actually as fun as you think it is, or you don’t actually like that type of content at all.
do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable?
Of course I do. Do you realize that? I don’t think you do.
Because, with your method, I would have to choose between never getting the reward I would like to get, or doing content I do not like to get that reward.
But you’re perfectly okay with that!
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
And my point is that you literally cannot have both. It isn’t possible.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
Because they get fired from their job if they aren’t on time, and their job is too far away for walking or bike riding to actually be a feasible alternative.
It is not at all the same thing.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
Then they are 100% stupid.
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
Yes it is.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?
YES, IN THE BEGINNING.
And then you become efficient with it, and as such, it becomes easier, because you know the ins and outs.
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging.
If it’s still challenging in some way, then you haven’t mastered it.
It can still be engaging.
Easy content can be engaging too.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
My impression is you are saying other people is wrong.
No one is wrong. Everyone is just expressing what they want.
I’m not sure what you want is the popular opinion though. And Anet most likely will choose what the majority wants. And judging from what Anet is doing to pvp ladder(exclusive pvp rewards), I’m not sure if Anet will give you what you want.
If more people voice the same opinion as you. Anet will probably accept your opinion. Kind of like how ascended trinket is added in laurel or Anet making guild mission easily doable for small guilds since many people voice their opinion.
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
Which is exactly what your point of view seems to be. You were the one that responded to me in a manner suggested you didn’t agree.
And you can always get the rewards you like from doing easy content. You just want to get all the rewards you want.
Well, yeah, because if I want them, then obviously I like them, and as such I want to do content I enjoy to get rewards I enjoy. But I can’t do that if the rewards are tied to exclusive content.
And if other people can get it, you can’t, it bothers you.
No, see you’re adding to much to that sentence.
What bothers me is if I can’t get the item, period, full stop. Because if I want an item, it’s because I like the item in question. I don’t care who else has the item. I don’t care if everyone in the game has the item.
Which I dont’ understand why. It’s not like you have every legendary in the game(at least I guess you dont’).
I don’t. I in fact have zero legendaries. I also have zero precursors, so you know, kind of part of the problem. But I also don’t like the overwhelming majority of the legendaries that are currently available. So I don’t go after them. And I still wouldn’t go after the majority of them whether they were only tied to easy content or hard content, or both. Because I don’t like them.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
Then once again, the reward matters more to you. If you enjoyed the content, why would you feel like it was inefficient doing it?
i like challenge and i dont like being ineffecient. does that seem crazy to you?
Yes, because by its very nature, challenging content is inefficient. That’s why it’s a challenge. If you could do it efficiently, then it wouldn’t be hard, it would be easy. When you become efficient at something, that something stops being difficult, because you have mastered how to avoid the difficulty.
They don’t have to be actively competing,
Yeah, they kind of do. You can’t just draft people into a competition. That is not how it works at all.
If you enter a triathlon and I don’t, how exactly have you beaten me? I was never a competitor, so you can’t beat me. You can only beat the other people that were in the triathlon.
Heck by having a computer and broadband connection sufficent for an MMO you’re beating 99% of the world, are they competing against you?
no the statement is still valid.
No it’s not. I’m not competing against them. They aren’t competing against me. I haven’t beat anyone by having a computer and internet. I’m not superior to them because I have these things. That’s ridiculous.
Just because you’re claiming that you’re not competing does not mean the game is not a competitive environment.
Actually, yeah, it does. I don’t know if you noticed, but this game was set up a cooperative type MMO, rather than a competitive one like WoW. There are no formal world firsts in this game or anything like that, to begin with.
If you don’t step foot in PvP those other players are still beating you by virtue of your base score being 0, If your world loses WvW on a certain week , that’s your loss even if you’re not competing.
No it’s not. I was never “on the team”, I was never competing. You can’t just decide I have lost somehow when I never joined the competition to begin with, nor wanted to be a part of the competition.
You can’t just point at me and say “You’re in this competition, now!” because I will look you square in the eye, say “no”, and walk away. And you won’t be able to then say “Ha, I win!”. No judge on the planet will award you anything for that.
Being number one is an unrealistic goal, it is about advancing as far as you are able and making do with what you can etch out for yourself.
Okay, so do the challenging content, and I’ll do the content that I feel advances me as far as I wish to advance, and we’ll both get the items we want while doing it.
There, everybody wins.
The idea that players are vindictively trying to “lord” things over you is silly for the most part.
No more silly than the idea that I am somehow competing with you when I haven’t agreed to any competition.
I have zero problem with people being on the same “plane” as me,
You clearly do, because you have decided that you have beaten me when I was never in your stupid competition to begin with. Otherwise, why would you go through the trouble of claiming victory over me? (in the theoretical competition you are in and I am not, whatever those may be)
What I am not ok with is players getting that same reward, for say failing 10 times, or picking flowers on another map, or any activity other than that specific one.
And if the structure was changed so that all of those rewarded the item?
No, you would still not be okay with it. Because “reasons” that totally aren’t about being above other people. Totally.
LIKING THE JOURNEY AND LIKING/WANTING THE REWARDS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
SO THEN DO THE CONTENT YOU LIKE TO GET THE REWARD YOU LIKE, SO THAT YOU CAN ENJOY BOTH THE JOURNEY AND THE REWARD.
If there are multiples way to get an item, and you choose the journey that is least fulfilling, that is on you and nobody else.
i didnt say the content is not compelling, i said the incentive is not compelling. The candy is not doing its job as being a compelling incentive to play.
But if the content is not compelling without there also being a compelling reward attached, then the content isn’t actually compelling.
a reward that does not enhance the objective is not doing its job.
And I keep asking you why the reward ceases to be compelling when it is available through multiple avenues.
The only logical conclusion is that on its own, the content is not compelling. If the content only becomes compelling the moment a reward is attached THEN THE CONTENT IS NOT GOOD CONTENT.
a reward that you must ignore to enjoy the game is a failed reward
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore fractal weapons.
Fractal weapons are now a failed reward.
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore Teq rewards.
Teq rewards are a failed reward.
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore glorious armor.
Glorious armor is a failed reward.
…Why are you arguing against me, exactly?
What you keep saying is that if i liked challenging content i would ignore the rewards, thats a bad game design.
NO I AM NOT.
I am saying that if you liked challenging content, and liked the reward, you would do the challenging content.
But you keep failing to tell me what makes the reward less desirable the moment it isn’t tied only to challenging content. Why does it lose value to you? Why is it suddenly lesser?
If you like the reward, and the challenging content is fun, why are you doing the other content instead?
Until you answer that question, I am going to ignore any more of your posts directed my way.
you are the one that want to do “easy content” to get the rewards.
Because easy content is generally the content I enjoy. So I want to be able to do that content to get the rewards I like.
. You are not too different from other those you pointed at.
Really, you don’t see the difference in what’s being said?
I never said Anet should make the rewards exclusive to hardcontent. I’m only saying why people are thinking the way they are thinking.
And I’m saying the way people are thinking with that makes no freaking sense.
Anet can also put the rewards in easy content, but hard in another way. Kind of like ascended trinket or ring which you can either get from guild mission or fractals, but you can also buy from the vendor.
And if you hadn’t noticed, there are people in this thread saying that isn’t acceptable, because they’ll just buy it from the vendor, instead.
It is just really expensive and time gated. So you still need to put in the effort to get it.
But according to people in this thread, that’s apparently not effort. And it’s not good enough. The reward has to be from the hard content and ONLY the hard content. Have you not read a single thing they’ve been saying?
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
HOW IS THE INCENTIVE LOST IF YOU LIKE THAT CONTENT!?
Quit saying you like the content. Quit saying you like challenging content. If you choose the easier method for the same reward despite preferring the harder content then you don’t actually like the harder content. You like the item, and the item is the only thing you like.
Or you know, it’s because what you actually like about the item is that only you have it and there are others who do not.
Which is what I said to begin with.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
Then you very clearly don’t actually care about chasing your friend. You don’t find chasing your friend fun. You only care about the item that chasing your friend gives you.
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals.
Then fractals clearly are not as fun as people like to claim.
So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
How about leaderboards? How about titles? Why aren’t those compelling? What about a trophy that gets placed in your home instance, or a trophy that when you click it, is placed on the ground in front of you for a set time that works like a package (like the box of chocolates or bobble head stand)
If it was a single player game they’d stop and take the long and ineffective route purely to enjoy the journey because it’s the only factor.
This is not a single player game there are other factors, to beat the other players you have to play effectively
No, to beat the others players, those other players have to be actively competing with you. GW2 PVE is NOT a competitive environment. You can’t beat me, because I was never competing with you in the first place. Same goes for PVP and WVW. You can’t compete against me if I never entered the race to begin with.
But thank you for proving my original statement right: It’s about lording it over other players. It’s about being NUMBAH ONE!!!
or it is not a wise use of game time and other players will catch up to you. (Thus the handicapping yourself comment).
So in other words, you do in fact have a problem with other people being on the same plane as you. You want there to be haves and have nots, in order to prove you are better. So like I said so long ago, it’s about you stroking your ego.
SO THEN WHY DID YOU RUN ME AROUND IN kittenING CIRCLES THIS WHOLE TIME SWEARING UP AND DOWN IT WAS ABOUT SOME JOURNEY YOU NEVER EVEN CARED ABOUT!?
You wanna talk about wasting time? You just wasted a whole lot of mine.
Well this thread exploded… I only followed it to page 8… has anything changed or is it still just:
Player 1: I want all the unique rewards given to me for free without having to do the content
Player 2: I think we should have to earn unique rewards by doing challenging content.I’m assuming that is pretty much still where we are at?
It would be if anyone was saying “Give it to me for free”.
But since nobody is, you are in fact wrong.
Ok here is the process.
Item is released, player thinks “oh I want that!”, player finds out how to get it, does it and gets the reward.
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item.
THEN YOU CLEARLY CARE MORE ABOUT THE ITEM THAN THE CONTENT.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
I don’t understand because it makes no sense. People keep saying how they enjoy harder content. How they want harder content. How they want the journey.
And yet they aren’t willing to take that journey unless they are absolutely forced to.
So if you have to be forced to take that journey, how could you possibly care about the journey? If you have to be forced to do the content, how good or enjoyable could that content really be?
If your first thought when seeing what you can do is “I’ll take the easiest route”, then you don’t actually like challenging content as much as you freaking claim.
Do you people choose easy mode on a game with multiple difficulties and then complain that the game didn’t give you enough of a challenge? Do you avoid hard mode because “why put in the effort in those games”?
dude, no one care about how other people get their rewards. What people care is the reward is crap if they have a easier way to get it.
But what makes the reward crap if there’s an easier way to get it? This is what I don’t get. This is what I don’t agree with.
If you think it becomes a waste of time just because of that, then your FULL ATTENTION is clearly towards the ITEM and NOTHING ELSE.
You want the samething too. You just enjoy easier content more.
Right, but I’m not saying to put rewards behind only easy content, because the reward doesn’t become worthless to me if it’s behind both sets of content, (as long as it’s behind both sets of content.)
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
THEN STOP CREATING SUCH RULES THAT CREATE THAT MUCH OF A kittenING GAP.
I’m sorry, but it’s not my problem that you think everything in this game short of Teq/TT/whatever is the equivalent of reaching into the bag and just taking a piece of kitten candy. If the game is THAT easy for you, you should have found a harder game to sate you AGES ago, because clearly this game never challenged you in the slightest and was going to take forever to catch up to your standards.
Maybe you should have supported Wildstar.
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?
It’s exactly the unique content you claim would make the game better because it would remove the grindy nature of the game.
Except that it is still a grind.
My point is that you keep saying that unique rewards will make the game better and remove grind despite the fact they have done no such thing as of yet except in two instances, instances that avoid grind entirely by guaranteeing the reward off the first try (SAB Trib and Lidari)
And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.
My point is that your belief that unique rewards will remove grind doesn’t hold water.
Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item.
And in my scenario, so long as you enjoy other content, you can switch between content to get towards the reward so you’re not in the same content all the time.
It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.
No it’s not, because instead of gold it’s locked behind low RNG. It’s still a bloody grind.
Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.
In other words, you don’t have a problem with grind. because that is exactly the same thing, only instead of a currency, you’re directly grinding the content. It’s the same kitten thing. You’ve removed currency and in it’s place you’ll have to put RNG, unless you want that content completed only once.
“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be.
It does if it’s going to have any staying power.
RNG could be of a more reasonable level.
It definitely should be all over the entire game. This game has the worst RNG.
And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about..
That’s exactly what grind is. It’s doing content multiple times to reach a reward.
No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.
But putting specific items behind specific content doesn’t automatically remove grind, regardless of how many specific items you put behind specific content! You’re still gonna wind up grinding.
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
From what I’ve been told, because people supposedly enjoy hard content.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot.
Wrong. See: Teq’s Hoard
That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
Of course many people (supposedly) do the content! It’s in the open world! And you can’t grind gold for those rewards, at least not for Teq. Teq’s has exactly what you want. Unique rewards only available through him. You can’t even buy them, they’re account bound.
But Teq is still a horrible grind.
The reason the drop rate is so low isn’t because of how many people there are doing it. It’s because a low drop rate guarantees that certain players will keep coming back to that content again and again, and again until they are ready to scream. The drop rate is low to boost participation numbers.
When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem.
Prove it. Because so far, ANet has failed that test the majority of the time.
What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).
The content to grind is -that- specific content, because don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d into the ground. You’ll be running that content again and again and again waiting for that drop to ever appear.
Grind can only be avoided by having the drop be guaranteed the first time. The moment you’re running content multiple times, you are in fact grinding that content.
So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.
And yet ANet has found a way to make both super grindy, so why exactly do you think this will be different?
Edit: In regards to Teq and Triple Wurm: Teq’s uniquie items come from Tequalts Hoard, Triple Wurm has the Great Jungle Wurm Chest, both have account bound unique rewards that can only be obtained through defeating that content, and even then, there’s still only a slim chance you’ll actually get any of those items. I was slightly vague with that in the post because I could not remember the reward chest names.
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
Not true… I’ll bet you used your fox mini for ages while almost everyone who bought it for 40 tokens rarely used it because it didn’t mean much to them.
I don’t know about the 40 token people, but I switch my pets around constantly when it comes to WoW. Whether the dedicated fox or the easily obtained penguin (the WoTLK one, not the Battle Net one), or the tiny hypogryph one that I got from the store when Blizz was donating funds for that Tsunami.
You’re trying to obfuscate your true feelings when you use words like “intrinsically” when describing emotional worth.
No, I’m trying to explain that so far as I’m concerned, what separates my items from anyone else’s is that they are mine, regardless of how I got them, regardless of their rarity, and regardless of whether 5 or 500 people are walking around with the same thing.
Items have the worth WE as players place on them, demanding there to be no reward for dedication rips apart those future bonds and feelings items have for us
But I’m not saying to not reward dedication.
I simply don’t understand how the dedication is diminished because of how other people get stuff. It’s a complete difference in…I can’t think of the word. A difference in philosophy I guess?
My backpack is Mawdry, my mini is Princess Mia, my sword is Storm Wizard’s and these matter to me because I put in effort and got attached. You are trying to create a world where I would not have these things mean as much to me… Why??
In the “world” I’m trying to create, you would still be able to put in that effort. That doesn’t change.
But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.
Only if the systems are designed as grindy.
Again, Teq and TT have “unique” rewards, and they’re still just as grindy. It’s about the implementation.
I see the disconnect.
you look at items as charachter customization primarily.
Because that’s what they are. This is a game of skins. You go after Bonetti’s Rapier because it’s a rapier and you’re a swashbuckling thief. You go after the SAB weapons because one of them is the Nintendo Zapper and another is a freaking lightsaber.
If all you’re after is rarity, then the skin serves no purpose. It could be anything. It could be a golden pineapple trophy.
But that does not create a rewarding game.
Says who? It certainly creates a rewarding game for me.
I look at some items as being a part of the game structure, a means of incentivizing behaviors, increasing satisfaction, and creating goals for playing the game.
I want people to aim to beat X battle and at the end feel like it served a purpose. I want people to explore a hidden area and come away feeling like the charachter has grown in doing so. I want the content to feel full, and purposeful. Some items a representation of how they played the game and what they achieved. to have a personal value.
All of that can occur without exclusive/unique items, though. Those items can still have personal value. Those battles can still serve a purpose, etc. The only thing keeping that from happening is yourself.
and yes anet could create a grindy horrible reward system with uniques, but they generally seem to make them less grindy if they dont involve multiple economies.
You’re kidding, right? When was the last time you got one of the Teq items? Or the TT items?
Or how about how long people have run high level fractals without an ascended chest? Or the horrible system that is ascended crafting?
ANet throws grind at all the content. They show basically no mercy.
Suffice to say if they create a legendary or ascended armor like level of grind while also being challenging, i agree that will be a huge failure of design.
Well, given their overall track record…
Edit: My apologies for a triple combo post extraveganza
That’s the thing that is just its value to you, not its value in the context of the game.
But that’s the thing. If I don’t value the item, then for me, the context of the game does not matter.
You may hate white and black dyes but in the context of the game they are more valuable than say yellow.
Sure, but if I hate them, then their value doesn’t effect me.
There was also a black wooden sword, it was only obtained through a random drop As a result several players designed their entire outfits around showing off this sword, where it may not have been a look they would usually use they found a way to get value out of the item. Because of the game structures value on the item not the individuals tastes.
And that screams of bad game design to me. What good is a skin (in the context of this game) that you don’t actually like and only keep around because the game screamed out “Oh man, this is rare!”
People should be going after things because they actually like them and those things fit their tastes.
That’s your opinion on how items work but that’s not how everyone feels.
And it’s your opinion that how items work is that they have to be uniquely obtained through certain content and only that content, but that also is not how everyone feels.
There are players who play the game and want to remember how they got something, the journey is equally important to the destination.
Right, so under the model I would like to see, they would look at the possible journies and choose the one they feel would be the most “epic”, or what have you.
I’m still not understanding how your journey suddenly becomes worthless because of how someone else decided to go on their journey. Why does how someone else obtains an item effect your journey? Your journey is the only one that should matter to you.
Anet has shown that they don’t care only for aesthetics, so your way of thinking doesn’t apply to them as well. I doubt they will come around and do it your way specifically for their new challenging content alone.
Anet has shown a lot of things. They flip their cares on a freaking dime. If HoT doesn’t pan out, expect them to change entire systems yet again, for the umpteenth time.
Your fox story is EXACTLY my point, the dedication you showed to want and get that fox means YOUR fox is worth so much more than the ones people bought for 40 tokens.
But it’s not. It’s worth exactly the same as all those other foxes intrinsically. The only thing that makes that fox worth more than anyone else’s fox to me is that it is mine. “This is my fox. There are many like it, but this one is mine.” That would have still held true had I gotten it for 40 tokens as well.
See how the journey makes it worth it, giving the foxes away for free lessened their worth to their owners because they didn’’t have the experience you had to get yours.
There is no way to know that their experiences were any less than mine. I would dare argue they had a better experience than myself. Some of the Tol Barad quests were actually pretty interesting, especially as an engineer with a parachute.
In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.
Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).
And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?
However, for many people it’s about rewards proportional to the effort.
Okay, but what makes a reward proportional to said effort? What is the criteria?
And it definitely is the case, since the post I had responded to basically admitted that it was the case.
Braindead SW facerolling should not be the most rewarding content in the game. Period. There is no effort involved there.
I don’t like the effort argument because how do you decide what constitutes effort? Who is the judge of that?
A lot of “hardcore” WoW players like to claim that LFR takes no effort, that it’s easy mode, etc.
But for me? That content is difficult. I don’t just “spam 1”. I have to use my full rotation, I have to keep on my feet, I have to dodge out of the fire, even though LFR is supposed to be “easy” mode.
I’m doing everything that would be expected of me in a high tier raid. And yet they claim I don’t put in effort.
The effort argument is flawed. End of.
OK an example from my time in WoW. Tyrande’s Doll was a healer trinket you got through Archaeology, it took me MONTHS of farming for hours to get (I was just unlucky it wasn’t super rare). I used that trinket all the way through the expansion right up to Deathwing Heroic because it mattered to me because of the time and effort I put into getting it. My robe was transmogged from an old set I felt I really worked for and loved the look of – PERSONALLY.
And I get that. But then the question becomes, would that doll still hold value to you if somebody had managed to get it in less time/easier than you? (Less RNG)
Best way I can think to explain my thought process and what I’m talking about is this. You’re familiar with Cataclysm, yeah? Remember Tol Barad? Well, in the PVE zone portion of it, there was a fox pet you could originally only get from RNGesus smiling down upon you as you slew countless Tol Barad Foxes.
I lost count of how many foxes I took down, but I got that tiny fox. About 2 months later, Blizzard added that fox to the Tol Barad vendor for 40 tokens. About 5-9 days of dailies (I forgot the number of tokens you got through those dailies).
That fox was now far more common among pet collectors, but it didn’t diminish the value of it for me. In fact, I was happy that others would be able to escape that bloody RNG trap. My rare pet was now more common, but I was perfectly fine with it. Didn’t bother me.
That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about.
I suppose programming them with worthy knowledge
Sorry, everyone’s SD cards are already out of storage space /ba dum tish
The value of an item is based on how you got it.
The value of an item is based on its aesthetics and how it looks with your other skins as you design your character.
If they gave you any skin you asked for in the daily login rewards it would make all skins worthless and give no reason to play the game anymore. That’s exactly how players who want items behind specific content feel if they give items in other (much easier) types of content. Same feeling really
Then those players only care about the reward and content because only they and a select few are able to obtain it.
Which means I was right and it’s about stroking ego.
heres the point, what type of incentive can you give for doing anything, if all incentives can be obtained by doing task A.
The incentive is getting to do the content that you enjoy, whether that is only one thing, or everything the game has to offer. What is so hard to understand? People who like several different types of gameplay can just switch between the stuff they like if they get bored.
But people who only like one or two portions of the game can still move forward with their goals as well.
You keep saying it will be grindy, but that’s only if ANet programs it to be grindy. And if you think it will be grindy no matter what, then you may as well shelve this game, because if ANet can’t get simple content to be non-grindy, why do you think that the challenging/hard content will be any less grindy, exclusive rewards or otherwise?
I mean, the only non-grindy things in the game that I know, whether behind difficult content or otherwise, are the SAB Tribulation Tokens, and the Lidari Mini, as they’re the only things that are 100% guaranteed from their content. Teq, TT, and Fractals, all originally lauded as challenging content, have 0 guaranteed rewards (aside from maybe that stupid spoon that I’ve seen several threads about).
Even in those, you have to do the content over and over again before you get anywhere, short of RNGesus.
So with that in mind, how can you keep believing that challenging/exclusive rewards are somehow going to save the day when almost everything that ANet puts into the game is grindy regardless of difficulty?
Exclusive rewards aren’t going to solve your issues with ANet’s entire reward structure.
So how do you give rewards for everything, without making all rewards feel worthless,
How do the rewards become worthless?
You keep saying this. What does that actually mean? What is the worth of the rewards? What is their value? How are you gauging these things? How are you determining these things? What set of criteria are you using that renders them worthless/without value?
ok im guessing your misunderstanding me.
- 1)When i say the idea that people do easy content for fun is bull, what i should have said, is the idea that everyone is doing certain specific easy content like say champ trains, or event spam in Orr, or silverwastes, because its just so fun is bull.
And the idea that everyone does challenging content because it’s just so fun is bull as well, clearly.
What is your point? That people also do things for rewards? Yes, that’s been established, thus my saying that people should be able to play what they want while also being able to get the things they want.
This doesnt mean no one enjoys it, or there isnt fun to be had doing it. The point is they are not doing it for fun ALONE. If it was actually just for the pure joy, then people wouldnt abandon them when they nerf the rewards.
Right, thus my belief that people should be able to get the things they want while doing the content they enjoy.
So if you want to do challenging content to get sword A, then do challenging content. If you want to do not challenging content to get sword A, then there should be an alternative.
Why does the reward also being available in some manner outside of challenging content suddenly make the challenging content not worth doing if what you want to do is challenging content? That’s what I don’t understand. If you have more fun in challenging content and the item is available in challenging content, then why are you in the other content to get said item?
If you answer path of least resistance, then I will again respond that clearly, if you are choosing path of least resistance over what you find fun, then you aren’t actually interested in that content, you are interested strictly in the reward.
- 2)throw a party for fun when you feel like it, but few people throw a party all the time, most people throw a few parties a year, even most hardcore party throwers only do it once a week. MMOs want to avoid creating content average people want to do a few times a year.
I’m going to be honest, could we drop the party thing? Because at this point, I’m confused at what your point is with the example in question. What is it you are trying to say?
- 3)its not about flaunting your stuff around, (for everyone) its about creating a fulfilling reward system. By creating many means of getting any item, you make its value determined by the easiest most effecient means of getting that item,
How does how someone else got the reward diminish your reward? Why do you care how anyone else got their +1 molerat of slicing? Why is the value suddenly less? Why is that suddenly diminished? Why are you less fulfilled by it?
- 5)Im saying they tried having non exclusive rewards, and they ended up having to create insane grind to get anything they want players to value.
They didn’t end up having to do that. They chose to make it that way because they didn’t want to put work into revamping their systems. They chose to make it that way because they decided to use gold instead of a closed currency granted by all forms of content, (once again, like karma).
- halloween 2 for example. Because of the insane amount of people playing halloween content, they had so much currency they had to create ridiculous prices in halloween items to create anything. They basically have to consider not how hard anything should be to obtain, but how much of it flows into and out of the economy.
They didn’t have to create those prices, though, that’s the thing.
The problem here is that your judging an item’s value entirely by it’s rarity. That’s not the only way to find value in the items in this game, and there’s no reason it should be the only way to judge value.
lets say halloween content had exclusive rewards, then they could design it so that someone who plays 10 hours of halloween content can get one of these items.
or someone who does all this halloween stuff can get one of these items.
instead they had to base it on how much candy corn and nuggets are there in the economy divided by the number of people we expect to want to get these items.
Again, they didn’t have to do it that way. They lowered a lot of the prices the last time, and things worked out better, even with candy corn flooding the market. You’re too hung up on economic worth and rarity.
- 6) i wasnt saying challenging content is automatcially fun for everyone, i was explaining to you why a person might find challenging content fun, but not find it fun enough to do it a lot if it doesnt give them value for the effort.
And I ask again, why does that value only exist if the item is exclusive? Why is the progress you made suddenly invalidated by how someone else got that item?
- 7) yes anet should make sure all content provides progression, exclusive items helps you to do this by seperating concerns. You dont have to worry about how the latest farm will effect the value of rewards you get from say doing personal story, or a jump puzzle.
I disagree.
- 8)it doesnt have to be a competitive sport, every game has an objective/objectives. perhaps its human psychology but most people will not be happy playing a game if they are working cross purpose to the objectives.
You mean like how I have to go into fractals if I ever want to see one of those cool looking weapon skins (merely an example, most of them look horrible to me, actually)?
Yeah, you’re right, I don’t like working cross purpose to my objective, thus my belief that people should be able to play what they like to get what they want.
When having fun in a game relies on ignoring the objectives,
Which is why people should be able to play what they like to meet their objectives.
- 9)exclusive rewards is the easiest method available to them to make rewards have value without introducing insane level of grind, or devaluing the item.
But it’s not the only method, and it certainly isn’t the best method. That aside, I ask yet again. How is the item devalued? Cause I can guarantee you that how you are probably valuing items is in no way the same as how I do. It’s probably also why we aren’t in agreement.
What’s the difference between having everything available with gold and making reward tracks on each type of content?
Well, for one, gold hits a snag because of the marketplace (thus other currencies being recommended), for a second, it depends on how those reward tracks are and what they give and where they give it. (Example: Is there a PVE track that gives a fractal skin outside of fractals, is there a PVP track that gives, say, HoT World Boss Reward #27)
In other words, does the reward track actually allow progress through doing content that the person wants to do. You say both have the same effect, but that depends on how they handle reward tracks overall.
If they wanted everything to be available through all types of content they would still make everything available with gold. But they don’t
Okay, but how is this something that can’t change? You’re treating it like it’s a forgone conclusion that will always be.
I think what you meant to say was “I want this to be something that can’t be changed”