Guild Wars 2

Here we go again… stolen items!

Mace Head Crack:
Make it unblockable so it can be more useful against Guardians. Even if it the daze only lasts 1/4 of a second and does no damage if blocked… at least it can interrupt Shelter.

Heeling Seed:
Which way to go with this one? How about some options?
A. Remove/shorten casting time.
B. Remove/shorten cooldown (Improvisation).
C. Block projectiles

Strategy is fine… as long as there is balance.

Increasing the Thief’s damage is only one solution.
Increasing the Thief’s sustainability is another.
At least one of them needs to happen.
Perhaps make each happen, then allow each player to choose which style to play.

It’s just at this point, the Thief is lacking. If nothing changes, it’s still going to be in a bad place. I’m just hoping for something to change for the better.

Jana.6831:

Because we have no defense unlike other classes. If you’d buff Thief’s offense we would one shot each other, right now we can’t.
Our damage is still not as high as other classes, so having a higher damage output might help a tiny bit to get them down, but their damage will still be there, so we would die to them as fast as we do now.

Yes, I think I would prefer that actually. If we’re already going to die because we’re glass, at least allow us a pretty good shot at killing the other guy if we get the first shot in.

Maugetarr.6823:

This is what I’m currently using.

Thank you. It’s interesting because that’s similar to what I’ve been running recently, though with D/P or D/D. I do take Flanking Strike (for the Quickness) and Trickster (for the condi-removal), though. Conditions seem to be the real killer now… and I don’t even know if a Sword would be enough. Sadly, I’ve never been much of a Stealth Thief in PvP, so I don’t utilize Shadow Arts enough for it to be very effective. That’s why I choose Critical Strikes instead.

But again, thank you for sharing :-)

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because the game mode of PvP is based on time.

---

The reality is bruiser stalls cannon enough to produce a 2v1, and glass cannons out rotate bunkers.

It seems as though time should favor the Glass Cannon in that case. In a Glass Cannon vs. a Bruiser matchup, someone should be dead in very short order. Either the Glass Cannon kills the Bruiser simply because it is so powerful, or the Bruiser kills the Glass Cannon because of the fragility.

If a Bruiser can stall a Glass Cannon long enough for a teammate to arrive, then what hope does another Bruiser have to go 1v1 with first Bruiser? There should be nearly a stalemate between the two. But do they not go man to man many times?

The problem with the Thief is it seems to be lacking the damage of a true Glass Cannon, yet it also lacks the sustainability of a Bruiser/Bunker. It simply cannot punch through defenses quickly enough, nor can it withstand hits. It’s almost as though it has been tailor made to run away from combat instead of engaging in it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Our output isn’t that bad actually if you’re traited for it.

But… I almost always trait for damage :-(

I guess I’m really not a fan of all the passive defensive procs these days :-(

However, I am always open to suggestions! :-D
Which are the best builds for damage?

EDIT:
I do wonder, though… as a glassy Thief myself, why am I not really afraid when fighting another Thief? Even with Basilisk Venom/Sleight of Hand/Backstab, they don’t ever down me with one burst. Yet against other professions, many times, they only need one burst to down me.

We have all heard the tales of how Thieves have always shaped the meta… and how our current state is our own fault. Now, the meta is full of bunkers and bruisers with lots of conditions, and really no Glass Cannons except for Thieves. Sounds boring, doesn’kitten

Don’t worry! I’ve discovered the solution!

Just buff the Thief’s damage output tremendously! Ok, maybe not THAT much, but make the Thief so lethal that even bunker builds start shaking in their boots when they see a Thief is on the opposing team.

Why will this work? Because if the tales are true, if the Thief is so powerful that it can drop bunkers relatively easy, then those bunkers will have no real reason to bunker up. They will have the incentive to start building for damage also. The Thief will no longer be the only Glass Cannon in town… and it will actually live up to that title.

Such a simple solution! Get on it, ANet! You have till next Tuesday! Thank you! :-)

You’re welcome again :-)

I’ve never really played an Asura, so I can’t tell you about it. The Reaper of Grenth elite applies Chill and Poison to nearby enemies, but it does no direct damage, so it will not Reveal a Thief. I suppose you could run Thieves Guild in the same manner, but that can give your position away… and a lot of this kind of combat is mental… someone who doesn’t know how to fight a Stealthed foe can panic and make a lot of mistakes. Seeing absolutely nothing is a big part of that. Think of a fighting force who always carries away their fallen soldiers from the field of battle… the enemy cannot see if they are being effective, so morale can really falter.

Daniel Handler.4816:

A glass cannon necro and elementalist can kill heavies. A glass cannon thief can kill a glass cannon elementalist or necro.

But why can a Glass Cannon Thief not kill a bunker also?
Why can a Glass Cannon Thief not go 1v1 against a Bruiser build?

The Thief’s offense is based on bursting a single target. Why should a Glass Cannon Thief not be able to burst down any single target no matter the build?

I’m not looking to enter team fights. If there is more than one enemy, a Thief should be at a disadvantage. There is too much AoE flying around. But the ability to focus on a single target… why shouldn’t a Glass Cannon Thief be able to hold his own in that?

From what I can tell, you’re saying that we’re playing a game of “Rock, Paper, Scissors.” We’re the paper, but there are no rocks to be found, only scissors.

DeathReign.7821:

Also! Does anyone have a link for the builds mentioned? Much appreciated! (Sorry for the double post)

You’re welcome!
I edited the first post to include a possible build.

There are actually several variations that can be run depending on how much mobility (Shortbow), Stealth (Dagger/Pistol), or Condi (Pistol/Dagger) you want. Shortbow does give a lot of Bleeding and some Poison if you don’t mind Revealing yourself.

Also, utilities can be interchanged. Ambush adds a distraction and some more direct damage (perhaps some control also). Shadow Trap adds lots of might, more stealth, and an escape option. Shadow Refuge gives long Stealth uptime.

Sigils can be chosen based on preference. You may want higher general Condition Damage instead of longer Bleeding for example.

You could run Carrion if you don’t plan to stay in Stealth the whole time, but that’s getting into a different build altogether.

The Confusion is from Bewildering Ambush.
The Immobilize and some Bleeding is from Needle Trap.
Other Bleeding is from Caltrops.

It my have being a Trapper… perhaps a Ghost Trapper build.

Dire with Trapper Runes.

Video

Here’s a possible variation of the build that you can run…
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQRAoa6YlsMh2mYZTw7JwvGHIFl/F2y5j3ABwCofyTYxA-TFSAABKcCAi+JAIj+h13fAgDCQQq/MpSwxU+RKgJVbB-w

Daniel Handler.4816:

Guys. You can’t force people to run berserker/marauder.

It’s not that thief was nerfed (although it was to a degree) it’s that people run runes and amulets that allow them to sustain your burst. If a thief can’t one hit ko they can’t do much of anything against a heavy or a soldier/celestial 1v1.

Sustained dps like wells or meteor shower is where it is at for killing heavies.

Thieves and mesmers are for ganking people who run glass canon.

That’s my entire point. What is the point of being a Glass Cannon if you can’t kill anything else but other Glass Cannons? There is none… except the Thief can’t build to do anything else decently.

That’s fine… IF the risk of being a Glass Cannon was offset by the reward of extreme lethality.

A bunker build should not mean that I, as a Glass Cannon, cannot break through his defenses. In fact, I should be the only one who can do so quickly. A bruiser build should be deathly afraid of me. Another Glass cannon shouldn’t worry so much about me because he is just as capable as I am… and I’m also not really any more dangerous to him than any other build is.

Again, I’m speaking about a Glass Cannon in general. The only reason it applies so heavily to the Thief is because it’s the only thing a Thief can build for.

A Glass Cannon that cannot punch through defenses.

What good is it to have the mobility to chase a target down if we don’t have a decent shot at killing them? It’s like a wasp chasing someone with a fly swatter. We may sting, but we’re going to die.

I want to trade what little sustainability I have for lethality, not mobility. Dropping the mobility doesn’t make me more sustainable or lethal. Besides, it’s not like our mobility is THAT superior.

And remember, being “deadly” in single combat means that there will be a dead opponent. Running away or resetting does not constitute as being deadly. Killing an AFK player doesn’t count.

Again, a Glass Cannon that cannot punch through defenses. It seems the only purpose of having a Glass Cannon is to fight another Glass Cannon. If that’s true, then why even build to be a Glass Cannon? Oh yes, because the Thief can’t build to be anything else! At least not in PvP… where killing an opponent on point is very important… and Stealth won’t even contest a point.

Question… and it may have been asked before.

Will there be an option to have the camera follow a locked target without having to move the mouse? That is so you will always have the target in the center of the screen?

And also, thank you for the new camera system! :-D

My main problem comes from this concept…

A Glass Cannon that is not powerful enough to break through defenses.

What were they thinking??? Honestly, it’s like an old American Civil War naval battle. Two opposing ships have the same type of cannons. One’s “armor” is purely wood, the other is an ironclad. It’s not even fair.

Panncakez.1290:

Why do we have weapon swap cooldown?

I have a more specific question…

Why do THIEVES have weapon swap cooldown?

leasm.1279:

Not only sigil cooldowns, but I’d say show every hidden cooldown on the character, such as sigils, runes, and trait procs (WoW for instance has ability alerts).

Having no visual information on some of your own character abilities is pretty bad IMO.

This… definitely this.

It only makes sense, and is rather silly to not have it.

Jaxom.7310:

dev came in and asked how would u even expect this to be implemented in the interface.

For traits, that is pretty simple. In fact, you could kill two birds with one stone.

Have a small UI box at the edge of the screen (customizable so you can move and minimize it). It has 9 hexagons in a square (Tic-tac-toe style). Each hexagon represents a trait. From there, you can actually change traits by just clicking on a given hexagon. Also, each trait that does activate with a cooldown, give them a bright color, and the rest have dark colors. When the trait activates, grey it out and put a countdown clock over it just as skills have. When it is ready again, the bright color is returned.

The same can be had for runes and sigils. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than nothing.

Chips.7968:

meepeY.2867:

Thieves need no damage buffs. Thieves need no Utility buffs. Thieves need defence buffs.

there’s no need to buff damage; we do enough damage.

I think that’s debatable. Personally, I’d prefer to actually have viable choices so if I want to go for sustain, I can. But also, if I want to go Glass Cannon, I can do that also.

Honestly, I can go full glass, and I haven’t been downed by an initial Thief burst since before I can remember… even with a Sleight of Hand and Basilisk Venom opening. But a Mesmer can insta-burst me down from Stealth with no problem.

Do Thieves do decent damage? Yes. Do Thieves do enough damage? When compared with everyone else, I don’t think so. Again, a Glass Cannon, I would think, should be able to do more sustained damage than so called “Bruisers.”

But once more, I would suggest giving the Thief options to build defensively or offensively depending on the player’s choice. As it stands, the Thief can’t compare with others in either way.

F3 = 400 range shadowstep with a blast finisher

Either on a 4 second cooldown or costs 4 initiative.

This is the main question…

Would a Thief with both Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger become strong enough to win 1v1’s consistently?

While we’re at it, would ANY two weapon sets without Shortbow make the Thief strong enough to win 1v1’s consistently?

Do weapon sets other than Shortbow actually make the Thief NOT glass?

Mobility isn’t the issue. It’s simply a matter of 1v1 capability. If the Thief STILL cannot conistently win 1v1’s, then there’s no reason to not have mobility also. We’re not looking to surpass everyone, we’re looking to be brought up to par.

Here is another question. If F3 simply gave us 400 range shadowsteps at the cost of 4 initiative, would you replace your Shortbow?

Ps. Another option… making Shortbow an Elite utility.

This is why Shortbow should be F3.
I love running D/P and S/D at the same time!
Sadly, mobility is also vital to survive.

BlackBeard.2873:

That allows both players to enjoy the game more, as your fight against a thief is no longer “I’ll just stand here until he opens, hope I have an invuln, and hope he doesn’t dodge my quick counter-burst.”

Remember… Thieves have to deal with Thief bursts also. We know what it’s like to take Stealth openers. And we don’t have the sustainability that almost any other profession has. But we learn to deal with it.

I don’t even remember the last time I was instantly burst down by another Thief from full health… even when I’m full glass and unaware. He stuns me and hammers me with Backstab and Heartseeker. But I’ve learned to use a stun breaker instantly. I can usually find a way to recover to extend the fight.

I will tell you, though, the other day, I took an insta-burst from a Stealthed Mesmer. Four simultaneous hits with no tell whatsoever. 12.5k damage… my poor Thief had no chance. I don’t believe I’ve ever been killed so quickly by a lone Thief.

Shezu Tsukai.8291:

And opponents/allies in stealth should be able to see each other like teammates. ie. The odd “I’m wearing the One Ring” shimmer effect.

Ah, I have a post about something similar to this…
Shadow Realm

Bezagron.7352:

• Blood Strains – If damaged the thief/stealth build leaves a small hard to see blood stain behind after a small delay (Allows for repositioning so not directly giving professions position away) while still staying in stealth. Blood strains could stack if damaged multiply times increasing their visibility.
• Leap/teleport impacts – leave a small hard to see ground damage effect after leaping or teleporting, again with a small delay to allow reposition.

I think one unintended consequence with delays is that it will cause many people to complain that there is a delay, and that it should be instant. And if they are instant, it almost defeats the purpose of Stealth. If it were implemented, such cues would have to be hard to see, and even then, perhaps only in the front quadrant (in front) of a character. It’s very important for a Thief to be able to flank a target. In order for a target to literally half a Thief’s damage, all he has to do is turn around. That’s how difficult things are for Thieves these days.

As a Thief, I have to fight Stealth also (even non-Thieves). That’s one reason I take a Sigil of Fire with me almost always. Not only does it allow me to know if I hit someone in Stealth, it also helps me to determine if I downed an opponent who is in Stealth. It may not be applicable always, but it does help.

Mefiq.7039:

You can still permaevade with flanking if you dont hit anyone…
Infiltrator strike/return is not CHASE ability, its a Engage/Disengage.
On sword you have cripple on chain to make sure u wont need to “chase” enemy.
Clusters were nerfed with speed and upped split cost so they cant be SPAMMED. and i agree that it is healthy. (Clusters still bursts enemy if used well)

That’s just it. We can already do that stuff. Just make it a feature instead of an unintended result in programming.

As for the Cluster Bomb, we can spam it already, but it’s a matter of range. We can spam at our feet, but not at distance. It’s forcing a ranged weapon into melee range to be most effective. Basically, we are the opposite of Rangers. They get increased damage the further away their target is. For Thieves, we have to get as close as possible to maximize the DPS.

Bezagron.7352:

I suppose my overall wish is to make stealth combat enjoyable for both parties making it skilful for both & making enjoyable to watch.

I posted this idea in the Thief forum. So it’s just a concept to allow a bit of “actively passive” counterplay to Stealth while not giving up advantages of proper positioning.

Revealed Alternative

Bezagron.7352:

how much fun are invisible fights.

For some reason, I actually enjoy Thief duels in the middle of a match the most. Both of them jumping into and out of Stealth, trying to one up the other. It can become like a chess match, haha! Especially when you start weapon swapping. Shortbow duels are rather amusing :-P

Of course, I mean when I’m actually involved in the duel. I don’t really get much of an audience :-P

I used to run with a Dagger/X and Sword/Dagger build. I love running it. But for being an agile, acrobatic profession, the Thief has no inherent speed or evasive advantages over anyone else. Sadly, that makes the Shortbow very necessary. If the Thief were given some speed buffs or made the Shortbow an F3 mode, it would be so much more fun to play! Even if it were given instant-weapon swap (initiative doesn’t refill on swap), then it would be so much more agile and sustainable.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

I like the idea, but this is a lot more than a QoL improvement. I would consider this a buff to Thief, and definitely not an insignificant one at that. Whether or not it is overpowered is up in the air though.

Perhaps. But you can already basically do the above to a degree…

You can already string together Flanking Strikes for evasion by deselecting a target. Unless you get unlucky and hit someone, you’ll constantly evade. And getting hit by multiple Flanking Strikes is preferable to getting hit with Larcenous Strike.

You can already jump when you cast Infiltrator’s Strike, returning in place when you use Infiltrator’s Return. The difference is you would not be out half a second and 2 initiative for the Return. Whether or not that’s too big, that’s a judgement call.

The only thing not available is a steady volley of Cluster Bombs. Shooting them at 900 range, you have to sit there for 2-3 seconds between shots to avoid detonating them. By that time, you’ve already gained all of your initiative back. The change would allow more Cluster Bombs at range, though limited by initiative. They would still be as slow as can be, and just as easily avoided as they are now.

Basically, we can spam Cluster Bombs at our feet, but not at range. It seems silly. The Shortbow is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

As a personal note, I would like the shift key to be bindable to something else because I actually used shift to dodge

That is also preferable! I have my Shift key bound to “use/interact” instead of the “F” key.

BrotherBelial.3094:

They want thieves to be the way they want them to be

Honestly, I don’t even think ANet knows how they want Thieves to be. At least, the vision changes over time.

The way Stealth and Thieves is intertwined is screwed up when you take the rest of the game into account. Thieves are too dependent on it in order to survive, but they also require it to have access to some of their most powerful attacks.

I keep comparing the Thief in Guild Wars 2 to the game Ninja Gaiden. It is supposed to be evasive in order to avoid getting hit. But the Thief simply has too little access to that evasion in order to survive today’s game… especially after Acrobatics was gutted. So the only thing left is Stealth.

I love to play Sword builds, but they are still too squishy and lacking damage. They are also lacking the utility that a Dagger/Pistol build has. I have to choose between Stealth/Evasion/Boon-stealing (off-hand Dagger) or Interrupts/Blinds/Stuns (off-hand Pistol). I don’t need Stealth for offense with a Sword, but for decent condi-removal and health regeneration. Else, I’m dead quickly even with all of the evasion.

Just a QoL improvement. Holding the Shift key down while activating a weapon’s chain-skill could force the first part of a chain to take effect (reset) instead of progressing the chain.

Just a few things that this could accomplish…

1. Flanking Strike: You can repeatedly evade even if you have a target selected or hit an opponent.

2. Infiltrator’s Strike: You can continually shadowstep to chase an opponent (can already be done with a properly timed jump).

3. Cluster Bomb: You can actually send a barrage of Cluster Bombs from longer distances in a timely manner instead of one every few seconds.

Everything is still based on initiative, so it shouldn’t be too overpowering. These are only for weapon skills (initiative-based/no set cooldowns). So nothing to do with utilities (Shadow Step, Shadow Trap, etc.).

I wouldn’t mind something like this for the base Thief. I could see two ways to proc it…

1. Steal (at least a 20 second cooldown)

2. Signet of Shadow’s active ability (at least a 24 second cooldown)

Hmmm, I could even see it being part of the Signets of Power trait, allowing it to proc on any signet activation.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I just irks me when they think they are amazing players when they spend the entire fight popping in and out of stealth and attacking you from behind. It is for this reason I see the thief as a cowards and skill less class to play.

For me personally, it’s not that I feel like an amazing player when I get a kill, but I do feel like I made a big accomplishment.

The reason we attack from behind is because if we attacked from the front, we would be dead in a heartbeat. While Backstabs do get a big bonus from behind, even as a Sword Thief, it is wiser to teleport in, immobilize a target and hit from behind… then teleport back out before the target can turn around.

I suppose you could call it “cowardice” in a sense. We are afraid of dying. And we know if we attack from the front, we’re dead. Also, Stealth is what really allows us to get to your back… as well as do the most damage if we run a main-hand Dagger. But that was ANet’s design, not the players. We just play like we were designed.

We can’t tank damage at all like others can. Playing “dirty” is the only way to survive, and even it isn’t enough usually.

Erasmus.1624:

The whole system is out of whack.

Hahaha, I think I can agree with that statement as far as the Thief’s perspective goes :-P

Erasmus.1624:

raise the Thief HP pool, and then nerf its damage to smooth everything out.

But Thieves can already do that by not selecting a Berserker or Marauder amulet. There’s a reason they dont. In the current game, the Thief is already at a relative disadvantage when it comes to a balance between offense and defense.

The June patch increased the damage output and defenses of other professions, but it gutted the Thief’s active defenses. It’s offensive capabilities did not increase relative to the defensive increases of the other professions. And the passive defense increases were minimal compared to the general damage output in the game.

In short, the Thief became glassier, but did not become more powerful… relatively. I’ve tried full sustain builds, and they can’t kill a fly, but they are still very fragile. That’s why I usually play glass, and sometimes, the glassiest of glass. Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery. It’s the only build that can hope to achieve the same lethality that others have, but it dies in an instant… sometimes, not even Vamp runes can take effect.

I was reading another post that compared Stealth in GW2 with other MMO’s. The main thing that stuck out to me was the ability for players to detect invisible characters in other games.

I know a lot of Stealth and Reveal mechanics have been thrown out there already, but what about this one?

A passive ability to see Stealthed foes only when they are in front of you (the front quadrant), and only in the “ghost” form that you and allies see yourself as when Stealthed. Think of Halo’s active camouflage.

The “ghost” form will only be visible from the front quadrant. From the sides and rear, Stealth will be completely invisible. There will still be no way to target a Stealthed enemy.

This will reduce the need for the Revealed debuff. It will also allow for more/longer “balanced” access to Stealth.

Yes, there are many ways to bring skills in line with the mechanic, and some things would need to be changed (eg. Shadow Refuge). And I’m sure there are many refinements that could be made (fading into and out of visibility as you move into/out of the visual cone).

But I can see advantages for Thieves. Especially if given a trait that allows them to remain in Stealth while out of combat (and outside of a capture point… unless Stealth no longer prevents capping).

Anyway, it’s just a general concept. I’d prefer it over the Revealed mechanism.

Kolly.9872:

Also do you know that thief is the hardest class if not impossible to play with high latency?

Hahaha, as someone who get hit and fast by spikes of lag, I’ve often joked that it results in one of two things…

I become either a sitting duck… or an unstoppable killing machine. And it varies with any given spike.

Haha, I would love to see what my poor Thief looks like when catching a lag spike in the middle of a fight. I can only imagine what my opponent sees… me teleporting here and there and everywhere… with a bit of damage mixed in. I’ve actually survived some “zerg dives” in WvW because of it. I really wis I could get a reply! :-D

Mogar.9216:

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth

Sadly, these are not accurate statements. Initiative does not allow that. A Thief may be able to get off 2 Black Powder + Heartseeker combos before running out of initiative. A Thief MAY be able to chain 3 Cloak and Daggers before running out of initiative.

To extend Stealth beyond that requires traits, utilities, and/or runes.

Mogar.9216:

I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

However, these are quite accurate statements. The memories do exist, but that’s all they are. Perma-stealth off of walls has been removed.

Ps. Also remember that a Thief in Stealth is a pretty harmless Thief. There are very few ways he can cause damage without Revealing himself, and they are easily absorbed, ignored, or countered.

Saiyan.1704:

Thief is strong in Conquest.

But again, that is not an accurate statement.

The Thief is a strength (an asset) in Conquest.
The Thief is not strong at all.

There is a very important difference between the two.

Personally, I would prefer much more active defense capability instead of passives (think of Ninja Gaiden).

But I would like some offensive passives. Such as ignoring opponent’s defensive skills/boons/traits… ESPECIALLY passive defenses.

Shirk.6421:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQBVyyEabiNPBvnA7TcITU+tYM+Q+I0CvgePniAA-TFBZABFp+Di7PAjSQAU+RKAYWWB-w

Wow, am I missing something? Or does that build have absolutely no condi-removal or stun/immobilize breaks at all? Personally, I’d be very afraid to use that build.

I don’t think traps are really your issue with that build, though. It only has 2 (with heal skill), only providing 6 seconds of Stealth in total.

EDIT: Ah, I found the condi-cleanse! Hide in Shadows cures Burning, Poison, and Bleeding. But I did forget to mention that the build also lacks health regeneration in Stealth.

bliss.4305:

Since Thief, mechanically, can’t contest an area while “holding its ground”

I think this is what it all boils down to. The Thief is currently mechanically inferior in its ability to fight. And it seems to have gotten worse. The June patch brought a lot of defensive abilities and offensive power to other professions. But the Thief’s Acrobatics got gutted, and its survivability and lethality went down in relation to everything else.

I’m not saying that “+1 and decap” is something that should not be done. I’m saying that it shouldn’t be the ONLY thing available to a Thief. It’s just a difference between “what is” and “what should/could be.”

While it in no way exemplifies the realities of the Thief as a whole, even I could “bunker” down with a fully defensive non-stealth Sword build pre-patch. Against whatever low-skilled players I may have been fighting, I could 1v2 them for an extended period of time on point. Many times, I could do so indefinitely. After patch, I’m fortunate if I can even last a little while in a 1v1 with the same type of build as before.

I don’t even care for the ability to 1v1 in a fair fight. But a Glass Cannon assassin seems like it should be able to make quick work of an “unaware” straggler. Or I should say… when the assassin attacks a lone target from advantage. The Thief just seems too weak offensively to offset being so weak defensively. I would just like some balance to be brought in whichever direction. I can’t speak for Daredevil, but the base Thief needs some help.

bliss.4305:

The class is not viable the way you want to play it. And if you don’t have the patience to wait or rely on the developers to hopefully change that, you can choose to find yourself another class/game/activity.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of patience. It’s the ability to lobby for those changes without being told I shouldn’t do so… like it’s wrong to want to play the way I desire. I’m not out to play in the top-level tournaments. I’m just here to fight.

I started in WvW, but moved to PvP to learn how to fight better, because it was taking forever to find 1v1’s in WvW so I could improve. Hopefully, I’ll be able to enjoy it more when I return.

Again, my whole point is this… I hope ANet broadens the viability of the Thief. I don’t want to take away anyone’s playstyle… not a single one. I’m not against “+1 and decapping.” But I would prefer other viable playstyles and roles in addition to it, and I don’t see why that would be a bad thing. Until then, I’m still working to learn how to fight as a Thief, trying different builds and such, but I’m focusing on learning to succeed in combat, not to avoid it. It may not be meta, but neither am I.

Quadox.7834:

So you think thief is weak because of low damage output/low survivability outside of stealth?

You agree Thief is strong in the metagame on a team, facing other teams?

Whoa, missed this post, oops!

I say the meta-Thief is physically weak no matter the situation. It may be fast, it may be evasive, but it is most definitely weak. There is a difference between “strength” and “mobility.”

It’s getting into wordplay, of course, but yes the Thief is glass, and glass is weak. And its cannon is also not powerful enough to be considered strong, relatively speaking.

So yes, that is why I use the term “weak” instead of “strong.” I believe it is accurate to say the Thief is weak and mobile. It can use the mobility to great advantage, of course, but that doesn’t change its physicality.

Basically… the Thief is “a strength” of a team just as mobility is “a strength” of the Thief. But the Thief itself is not “strong.” Again, it’s wordplay… an adjective compared to a noun, each with a slightly different meaning.

This is a plea to save many depressed Thieves from committing terrible acts of harm to themselves. Yes, it has come to my attention that many of the Thieves here have already accepted their deaths and gave themselves a public funeral.

Not all hope is lost, however. There are still those who remain with us, but for how long, we do not know. There are many whom I have seen charge head first into an engagement so they would be cut down by the blade of another. But there are also those who are on the edge of despair, and they may yet wish to live. However, I believe they would embrace death if it were offered. It is for those I would hope the powers that be will do the following…

Please give Thieves immunity to self-inficted harm.

Such methods include (but may not be limited to)…

Suicide by Mesmer: Mirror of Anguish
Suicide by Necromancer: Reaper’s Protection
Suicide by Guardian: Amplified Wrath

Please, either give Thieves pure immunity to such things or at least place them immediately in Stealth (or mist form) while affected by those traits. While another Last Refuge is not desired, it does not make sense for a well trained Thief to harm him or herself for successfully attacking. The only possible reasoning for them to do so is to end their suffering.

There must be some solution to this needless cardinal sin!

rennlc.7346:

My concern is less about pre-conceived notions about what the Thief class is supposed to be and more about doing the most I possibly can to help my friends, teammates, and myself succeed as a player of GW2. I’m going to play the game the way it ought to be played and as someone who has selected Thief as the class I wish to attempt to excel with, that currently means SA D/P. It also means a whole lot of running away, +1ing, rezzing, decapping, and using most of my attacks at key moments and in conjunction with other players. I appreciate your attempts to help refine the class but resent the naivety of how you cast aside what Thief currently does so well. Ultimately, Thief currently demands a certain degree of humility and it’s incredibly rewarding to those who embrace it. Adapt, quit, or continue to suffer the consequences for attempting to do something in a way that it really shouldn’t be attempted. The choice is yours to make. I hope my words have helped motivate you to adapt, learn, and experience many Eureka effect moments where you go, “Oh! THAT’S what I’m supposed to do in X situation!” Good luck. Thief has the most unique learning curve of all the classes in GW2 and most players give up before they’re able to realize this.

Honestly, that’s very insulting and quite arrogant as well, in fact, quite the opposite of the “humility required for a Thief,” but I will not press those issues further.

Be that as it may, you said yourself that they are your own concerns. I do not share them. However, I am not opposing them either. Like I said, if you want to play it that way, then do. Though, others should have the opportunities that they desire also.

The Thief was not always in this situation, I’m sure you are aware. They were not created for this single “role.” They have been transformed into a condition where this “role” alone was delegated to them.

Again, if you want to play “team” and get your fulfillment out of playing a support role in a VIDEO GAME, that’s fine. I chose the Thief because it is the closest thing this game has to an assassin. That means I’m here to sneak around and kill things… just as Thieves used to do. I already get my fill of humility in the real world. I don’t need lectures about how I lack it.

You seem to be speaking in the sense of “how things are” at this moment. I know fully well how things are, and I oppose them. This is a video game, and it will change as time goes onward. You can speak of how Thieves work in the current game, and that’s fine. But I can list issues and reasons why and how the Thief should change in the future. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But to imply I’m playing the game incorrectly because I have a different agenda or goal than you do, that’s quite far from the truth.

Once again, I’m not here telling you how to play or how you should play. I’m here saying that others should be given the same respect and opportunities.

oEnvy.3064:

Swallow your pride, accept your limitations and strive to learn and improve. Accept it and get better, or be ignorant and stay bad.

I know you’re done here, but I think that quote is kind of the issue. Knowing the limitations of the Thief compared to other professions. No matter what you do in life (video games, sports, warfare), there is almost always someone bigger, better, faster, smarter, more experienced, etc. Sometimes, the only “winning” move is to not play. Think of the movie “Wargames” with its Tic-tac-toe and Thermonuclear War.

A Thief may always be able to engage. A Thief may even always be able to disengage. But can the Thief always defeat the opponent? Unfortunately, it doesn’t always depend on the player of the Thief, it also depends on the player of the opponent.

Personally, I cannot even express how crazy it is for an “assassin” character to attack a target successfully, but actually be punished for it. A Mesmer may have Mirror of Anguish. A Guardian may have Amplified Wrath. A Necromancer may have Reaper’s Protection. How is a Thief supposed to know if he can even safely engage without causing harm to himself? Is he supposed to only use half of his skills or deselect some of his most useful traits?

I understand such passive defenses are needed for their survival. But the Thief is unique. An assassin should be able to at least avoid harming himself with his own attacks.

assassin.7895:

Since past and current meta is dominated by bruisers (D/D ele etc.) it’s offense? I disagree. More like in between.

Bunker

Ah, I was just basing it on the rumor that the Thief hunted all of the Glass Cannons out of existence :-P

oEnvy.3064:

It makes sense that thief isn’t great in 1v1s, it’s not the thief’s job to 1v1.

I think this is one of my main issues. Who said it’s not the Thief’s job to 1v1? Did I miss the official ANet memo or something?

Honestly… a Glass Cannon that can’t break through defenses. That is self-defeating and completely ironic. It’s the equivalent of a freezer that catches things on fire.

Guild Wars 2 is a combat-based game. ANet set out to NOT bring in the “Holy Trinity,” therefore, it can be assumed that every profession is meant to capable of every “role” based on their builds. Not that they should all be equal in their methods, but capability is a different matter altogether. The Thief is simply not currently in condition to perform certain roles as it should be able to. All that is needed is for it to get fixed.

If you wish to run around decapping and avoiding 1vX engagements, that’s fine. But why should everyone else who enjoys the Thief playstyle be limited to that?

From what I can tell, there are really three roles in Conquest of Guild Wars 2. Perhaps a different version of the Holy Trinity…

Defense = Bunkers
Offense = Bruisers

and…

Avoidance = Decappers

Yes, you know who gets stuck with the last role!
Am I accurate in making such a statement?

Shadowscamp.8065:

It has access to some of the strongest mechanics such as stealth and shadowsteps.

It may be a matter of semantics here, but I kind of cringe when I hear things like Stealth and shadowstepping… or hiding and mobility general being called strong.

Yes, hiding and mobility are “strengths” of Thieves, in the perspective of that’s what they do well. But I would not consider them literally “strong.”

To me, “strong” suggests a matter of “force” or “opposition to force.” Or even the potential of such.

Sadly, the Thief is not relatively “strong” offensively (damage output and control). And it is downright “weak” defensively (absorbing or ignoring damage and control).

I know it’s a “word game,” but I really do wish people wouldn’t say something like, “the Thief is strong” just because it can decap and +1 faster than anybody else. Instead, I wish they would say, “the Thief is fast” or “the Thief is mobile.” It is a much more accurate statement… at least in my opinion.

And as for active defenses compared to passive defenses, I would argue that the Thief is “evasive” or “slippery.” So yes, “weak and evasive” seems to describe the Thief defensively.