Guild Wars 2

Aza.2105:

Simple fix: Moa should break when it reaches a certain incoming damage threshold.

Ah, a Dungeons & Dragons solution.
Give the Moa its own health pool? When Moa’s health pool reaches zero, it reverts back to normal form. Any remaining damage from the “Moa-killing” attack carries over to affect the main health pool.

A double-edged sword, I suppose. All it would do is basically remove the profession’s effectiveness for the transform duration. Though I suppose you could remove the Moa’s ability to capture/contest a point (if it even exists), making it a net gain for the Mesmer.

Nocta.5274:

Yeah, thief would probably literally OS stuff if we could get critical strike on top of DA Trick DD.

That, my friend, is what you call true balance.
A glass cannon that already gets one-shot actually being able to one-shot others ;-)

Yeah, I don’t believe perma-stealth would be possible with the direct damage of Dragonhunter traps. One could lay the trap from Stealth, but that isn’t much different than laying one without Stealth… seeing that the trap is invisible until triggered. And Trapper runes would go to waste with the self-Revealing nature of the traps.

Indeed, flashy graphics may not be too Thief-like, but the effects and capabilities of the traps could work. Traps that heal the Thief. Traps that pack a punch if not avoided. Traps that pull targets into them. Traps that do not allow targets to run away.

Seeing a lone Thief sitting on a point would give one hesitation whether they should actually engage or not… unlike now.

As it stands now, our traps are little more effective than this Bang Gun… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZV8LhhxP5s

Personally, I would be willing to replace my Assassin’s Signet with Test of Faith/Procession of Blades or Basilisk Venom with Dragon’s Maw ;-)

Just curious to know what people would be saying if the Thief had gotten the Dragonhunter’s traps instead.

How would that change the Thief’s position in things, if at all?

NuhDah.9812:

Can someone explain to me how access to more weapons would make thief more balanced/viable? I’m really hearing this a lot, but being a newer kind of player I don’t really get it? Isn’t thief’s variety of weapons diverse enough to suit the thief play style from single target burst dodger to condi aoe trapper? I mean i guess compared to the other classes aoe dmg, survivability and passives thief might not be viable, but how would more weapon diversity change this? Would really creating even more diversity that’s underperforming compared to other classes help?

I wouldn’t say it would make the Thief more balanced or viable. It could definitely create more versatility, though.

I think your last sentence nails it. The Thief is underperforming compared to other professions. That can be fixed with the weapon sets we have now. But it isn’t.

Just as an example, the Thief has access to traps. You can literally say that the Thief is versatile enough to run as a trapper. The problem comes when you actually look at the traps the Thief has compared to those that other professions have.

Thief Traps
Ambush: Does no damage. Calls in a weak AI Thief at YOUR location (not the target). If you are Stealthed, the AI Thief gives away your location… even if you’ve moved to the other side of the map when the trap is triggered. In order for the AI to do anything helpful, you must actually engage the target yourself.

Needle Trap: Does only condition damage (not useful for a power Thief). Immobilizes target for 3 seconds, which is handy if you are already on top of the target.

Shadow Trap: Does no damage. Buffs your power and grants Stealth temporarily. In order to actually do any damage, you have to blindly teleport to the target… that is if your teleport can actually reach the target because of all of the pathfinding issues in the game. It can be uses as a stun-breaker or escape, but has a VERY long casting time, and it still suffers from pathfinding issues… which may lead to you escaping on 15 feet away into a wall.

Tripwire: Does no damage. It knocks the target down for 3 seconds. In order to do any damage whatsoever, you must already be on top of the target.

Not to mention that these traps ONLY affect 1 target… unless you get EXTREMELY lucky. Now, compare these to the other traps in the game…

Traps that heal the trapper and allies.
Traps that give the trapper and allies Aegis.
Traps that cover an entire control zone on a map.
Traps that Chill, affecting skill cooldowns.
Traps that create combo fields.
Traps that Reveal Stealthed targets.
Traps that literally trap a target inside.
Traps that pull a target inside.
Traps that do direct, power-based damage… that can kill a Thief instantly.

So the problem isn’t necessarily that the Thief can or cannot do things. The problem is that it can’t do things as well as others. So, perhaps, in increasing the options for a Thief (with more weapons, etc.), the Thief will have more chance of gaining something that it can do as well or better than others.

Hendrix.9763:

Lead Attacks: This trait has been reworked and now grants 1% damage and condition damage per initiative spent for 15 seconds. This effect has a maximum of 15%.

So exactly how does this work now? Every time you spend 1 initiative, it adds 1% damage for the next 15 seconds? No cooldown or anything? It also works outside of combat?

Interesting change. Great for D/P Backstabbers and bursters, but not so much for sustained combat, it looks like. Well, back to the old days of not keeping a full initiative pool.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You suppose to engage (or re-engage) with Shadowstep so when you get loaded with conditions, you can use the return to remove them.

Haha, sadly, I’m not always sure when you’re serious and when you’re trolling :-P

As for me, I use Shadowstep with the first priority being a stun-breaker. Condi-removal is secondary. Escape is my third priority. Stomping assistance comes as a bonus if it’s available. I leave the preparatory teleports to Infiltrator’s Strike and off-site Shadow Trap. But to each his own.

But I can see a simple workaround to make both parts of Shadowstep helpful with condi… however powerful it may be. On the activation of Shadowstep, give the Thief 10 seconds of Resistance. On the activation of Shadow Return, cure 3 conditions and remove Resistance. Bada-bing! :-D

BlaqueFyre.5678:

make the Condi clear whenever you use a shadowstep

I’m in favor of this concept! :-D

Public Service Announcement
From this point onwards, if anyone calls any of my ideas OP, I’m going to laugh in your face and send you a link to this thread. That is all :-)

Ps. I’m pro-assassin. But not quite like this :-P

I’m sure we have all run into people that we don’t want to play with. I’m sure some people don’t want to play with me. I suppose that’s what the block feature is for.

But during this league, I blocked people, and I still get teamed with them several times afterward.

I understand that if blocking someone meant you would never see them again, it could be used to avoid playing great players in the future.

However, that is never my intention in blocking someone. I just don’t want to have to play WITH someone who clearly does not have my best interests in mind… especially trash talkers who will complain about me before the match begins, and though I cannot see those messages, my teammates can, starting yet another match off badly.

I do not mind one bit playing against someone I block. So would it cause problems if blocking a person simply kept you from being teamed up WITH them in the future? Even if it put you on a lower priority in the queue, so you would not be affecting anyone else’s wait time.

Opinions?

I guess that’s really the question. Where does balancing/changing/reworking end and “overpowering” begin?

One man’s “balanced buff” is another man’s “cheese.”

First, three dodges with Feline Grace was considered overpowered. Then two dodges with vigor was seen as underpowered. Then Daredevil gets a third dodge as baseline… plus a Leap Finisher to boot, but that seems to be ok.

People like to use terms like “OP,” “broken,” and “cheese” so much. But I don’t always understand what their standards are based on. Should we base that standard on an ideal Thief playstyle? Should we base it on the current Thief status in an isolated manner? Should we base it on the current/past status of the other professions?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Would be too much work for anet to do flanking strike animation back to front since the dagger hits and it’s off hand.

I don’t mind lazy solutions that work :-P

Just turn the Thief around first, and play the animation as normal ;-)

Fat Disgrace.4275:

after a few days to a week you get use to using #1 and #3

So true, so true. Sadly, I’ve been there for a while :-P

Regon Phoenix.8215:

THIEF
17) Deals way way too much damage. It is at same level as walking into 4 dragon hunter’s traps.
18) Can spam stealth too much. It can literally do this until it kills someone: attack with one ability -> stealth -> attack with one ability -> stealth -> attack with one ability -> stealth -> ……

I am going to ask for the build those Thieves are using. Or at least videos of what you’re talking about.

In my experience, save for some one-trick (nonviable) builds, Thieves lack the needed damage output relative to other professions as well as lack lethality when Stealth is involved.

Damage
I run a full glass build. Dagger/Pistol, Berseker, Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery, Fire/Air sigils. I’m running Pack runes instead of Scholar runes for more sustained damage.

There is way too much damage mitigation and too many passive defenses around for me to punch through. If I catch someone flat-footed, they can be in trouble. But if not, the fight is uphill for me.

Yes, you can run signet/trapper builds to gain 1-shot potential, however, they are just as fragile, have little mobile damage potential, and extremely limited burst potential.

Not to mention that the Thief’s burst is not all that dangerous if you’re paying attention and prepared. As I said, I run full glass, and I cannot remember the last time that an opposing Thief has downed me with an initial burst… not even when they caught me completely by surprise. Stun-breakers are your friends. And if a glass Thief can survive a burst, anything can.

Stealth
What one ability are these Thieves using to kill someone with between Stealths? What builds are they running? There’s a 4-second Revealed period between Stealthing attempts. Stealthing is initiative heavy. Backstabs are not efficient. If a Thief is camping Stealth so much, he’s giving you time to recover. Have you played as a Thief much? It’s not nearly as simple as you’re making it out to be.

There’s a reason Thieves need to pick their battles wisely. There’s a reason that they aren’t “supposed to” duel in a 1v1… especially without Daredevil. And there’s definitely a reason why Thieves have to be as dirty as they can be when they do fight. As a Thief, if the enemy even knows you’re there, you are at a severe disadvantage.

While personally, I would really like evade skills (Flanking Strike, Disabling Shot, Death Blossom, Withdraw, Roll For Initiative) to be immediate and override current animations, what would you say to having them also be controllable as far as directioning goes… like a dodge roll?

For example, holding the “A” (move left) key while activating Flanking Strike would ignore the selected target’s position, and would direct the skill to the left. Pressing the “W” (move forward) key (or nothing at all) would allow the skill to function in its normal direction.

Such a thing would allow a string of proper evasions without actually having to deselect a target in the midst of combat for skills like Flanking Strike. It would also allow easier evasions to bypass certain damaging boundaries such as Test of Faith and Ring of Fire.

Withdraw/Roll For Initiative would function just as normal dodge rolls do.

This is a rather philosophical question, I suppose.
What does a truly balanced Thief look like?
And does it take a skilled played to be successful with it?

A ninja could kill you in your sleep with a spoon.
Does that make the spoon an overpowered or balanced weapon?
If a ninja uses a basic sword on the battlefield, is the sword overpowered because he is still skilled enough to outfight 3 opponents with the same type of sword at once?

What is a balanced Thief?
Is it a profession that stands an equal chance in combat against any other profession as long as the other player is equally as skilled?
Or is it a profession that can destroy anyone if truly mastered, yet cannot compete with equally skilled opponents if not mastered?

And also, what SHOULD the Thief be? What should it be capable of, and what is the skill level that should be able to be effective with it?

In other words, what do we want to happen to the Thief? Is it bad to want improvements to become more competitive because it may require less skill? Is it bad to want improvements for lower skilled players because it will make it overpowered for masters or against new players? Is it preferable to be fighting with spoons instead of swords because it does require more skill?

Ps. These questions are combat-based. Not pertaining to the ability to hide or run around a map.

Linnael.1069:

I think there is a good reason for weapon swaps having significant cooldown. No CD weapon swaps multiply the number of skills and effects involved in the fight at any given time. If you look at other classes that exceed the normal weapon swap rate, namely elementalist and engineer, you can see that they pay for that power on each individual skill. Ele commonly looks at 30-40 second cooldowns on its weapon skills, and Engie gives up utility slots for its kits.

In most cases, instant weapon could be bad. In the Thief’s case, it is debatable for several reasons…

1. The Thief is initiative based. Swapping weapons does not affect initiative (unless traited).

2. The Thief is an active playstyle/profession. Its success is based on the ability to adapt to the present situation. Being locked into a weapon set for an extended time period does not allow for that.

3. The Thief is not balanced compared to other professions. If built for pure power, it still cannot match the damage output of other professions. If built for pure sustainability, it still cannot withstand as much as other profession.

4a. The Elementalist has four different attunements (skill bars) + Utilities. That’s 20 skills + 5 utility skills for a total of 25 with separate cooldowns. The Engineer has one weapon set (skill bar) + up to five kits (skill bars) + up to five F-skills. That’s a total of 35 skills. The Thief has two weapon sets (skill bars) + five utilities + one divided F-skill. That’s a total of only 16 skills, but 10 of those skills (weapon sets) share a “cooldown” system.

4b. Because of the initiative system, the Thief has already had to trade power for the ability to “spam” skills. Thus being able to use skills from both “weakened” weapon sets at will should not cause much of a problem.

5. There’s really no reason the Thief should not be able to use its single initiative bar however he or she so desires. That requires the ability to switch weapons at will. The only “fair” alternative is to give it a separate initiative pool for each weapon set just like every other profession has.

But the bottom line is that other professions including the Elementalist and Engineer can sustain more and do more damage than the Thief.

Eliminating the weapon swap cooldown for the Thief will not increase its damage ouput, but it will add sustain. On the other hand, giving a second initiative pool would increase sustain as well as sustained damage output. Neither one, however, would cause the Thief to become overpowered compared to other professions.

NinjaEd.3946:

Core thief is still good in the right hands but by no means is it up to par with the rest of the professions.

Just curious. With such a statement, can you accurately say the following?…

“Relatively speaking, the core Thief is bad in general.”

Ravenmoon.5318:

“Oh whaa … he told me to switch in a rude manner Q_Q i am offend”

It’s really not even the rudeness nor the offensiveness. That can be played through and overcome. It’s the the sheer gall of saying that if you don’t play my way, I’m just going to sit here and do nothing. The old “take my ball and go home” attitude.

No matter what one’s personal opinion may be, having two Thieves on a team is infinitely better than having only four players.

Galandil.9641:

I’m just saying that if I see two teefs in my team comp, I ask in chat “can one teef swap pls?”.

Yes, that’s asking politely :-)

So it gives them the justification to be rude?

They have no idea what the skill level of the Thieves are nor the opposing team.

It’s common decency to ask politely.

Don’t try harder. Just give it their best… as they should be doing anyway.

And please don’t tell me what I do or do not care about. My goal is to win, and I’ll do my best to do so. And believe me when I say that me playing the Thief is my best shot at doing so.

If you find yourself on a team with more than one Thief, please don’t tell us you’re going to sit in spawn if we don’t change. Please ask nicely, and if that fails, either disconnect or try to win, and at least wait until after you lose or are refused before you throw a tantrum. Some of us are actually on winning streaks… even when multiple Thieves have been on our teams.

Politely requesting is quite fine. But threatening is quite immature and spoils the fun for all… not to mention lowering morale and the likelihood of victory.

Thank you! :-)

For Thieves, just make Shortbow an F3 mode with a 1 second cooldown like an Engineer kit. That will at least allow us to take a second combat weapon, though it won’t help our initiative troubles.

Reduce it by 50% like Warrior’s Fast Hands trait, and you’ve got a deal! ;-)

Personally, I’m for instant-weapon swap (or 1-second cooldowns like Engineer kits) to be baseline. Either replace the Quick Pockets trait or give it a cooldown.

The Thief needs flexibility. Currently, when you have low/no initiative, swapping weapons is a punishment in that all it accomplishes is locks you into another weapon set for 10 seconds. Even with Quick Pockets (a trait that sacrifices a lot), you only gain enough initiative to do 1-out-of-4 skills on a weapon set only one time.

The alternative is to give each weapon set a separate initiative pool, or refill the single initiative pool (completely or significantly) on weapon swap. I’d prefer such a change to be baseline, but even a Quick Pockets that restored 8 initiative ever 10 seconds would be acceptable.

In that case, you would gain one attempt at Infiltrator’s Arrow to Escape, or one Cloak and Dagger/Black Powder+Heartseeker combo to Stealth, or one strong attack.

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

But that’s only my opinion

Thanks, explanations help understand reasoning :-)

I’ll try to explain mine as well…

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

—> No profession has instant weapon swap and IMO its good that it is this way. And ini refill would be very op, as u can e.g. double take same weapons and burst very hard.

True, no profession has instant weapon swap. Though no other profession uses the initiative system. So being unique and being balanced uniquely because of that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. And that applies to more than just weapon swap. It applies to every potential change to the Thief. Also, not everything needs to be made baseline. Some things can be traitable. There are multiple methods and extents to each possible change. For me, personally, the goal is to make the Thief a more credible threat to taking and holding a point.

For weapon swap specifically, again, different extents are possible. Refilling the initiative on weapon swap (or having separate initiative pools), though leaving the cooldown rate at 10 seconds, is the way to balance more inline with other professions. Right now, the Thief is being punished for swapping weapons. If it uses all of the initiative with one weapon, switching to the other does nothing but lock you into that set and proc whatever sigils/traits are equipped. Yes, that may require the Thief to play more wisely, but that certainly does not mean it is balanced.

And while it can lead to some powerful combinations (perma-stealth with double D/P), it will also mean a true role choice. Take two melee sets, you lose your mobility with Shortbow. Take D/P and Shortbow, then you have the ability to apply full melee pressure without fear of losing escapability. Take D/P and S/D, and be able to apply full pressure with two different combat styles. The point is that you won’t have to limit your attack potential worrying about sustainability. They will be much more independent. In such a case, Preparedness also becomes much less significant (or, perhaps, just perhaps, should be removed).

The alternative is to reduce the cooldown on weapon swap. Warriors can trait to reduce it to 5 seconds. Even down to 4 seconds with the Warrior rune. Engineers get to switch kits on the fly with only about a 1 second cooldown. That gives advantage even if skills are still on cooldown. At least it can provide quick access to ranged/melee auto-attacks. The Thief has no such advantage. And lacking both sustainability and necessary offensive capability, the Thief needs the ability to switch combat styles more than anyone else… especially with killer traps and so much AoE being thrown around. Being stuck on a melee set isn’t safe when out of initiative and getting blasted, and getting locked into ranged without initiative doesn’t apply enough pressure when the opposition isn’t so great.

Basically, make swapping weapons more than a punishment. Currently, with a single initiative pool, it forces the Thief to choose to fully commit to a fight to win or to save the ability to escape. Unfortunately, the current base Thief is ill-equipped to win fights on its own, and saving initiative to escape makes it even less effective as a fighter, reinforcing the concept of the “+1” role, though making it even worse at that as well.

Giving the Thief a no/low-cooldown on weapon swap allows it to actively adapt to any given situation on the fly (great for the “active playstyle/profession” concept), while refilling/giving a separate initiative pool on weapon swap allows the Thief to engage with full force without making it a sitting duck if the enemy survives its burst.

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

—> Passive defenses are still defenses, so negate these would make them less valuable. No profession should negate defenses in this way. And IMO no profession should be able to do this in a way without traits as a baseline opportunity.

Again, the issue here is maintaining a proper balance while keeping the Thief playstyle unique. But first, I must say that not all of my several suggestions would necessarily need to be implemented. Any single one would help on its own, even if they do seek to solve their own specific problem.

For example, refilling/having a separate initiative pool for each weapon set would help tremendously in dealing with the high amounts of passive defenses that other professions currently possess. By increasing the Thief’s number of offensive skill uses, the effectiveness of the opponent’s defenses and healing abilities lessens. It would not make the hits of the Thief’s harder, but it would allow the Thief to apply more hits.

Not only would it increase the Thief’s offensive output, but it would also increase the Thief’s defensive abilities. More initiative means more weapon-skill evades. The base Thief already lacks in both offensive capability and defensive capability separately. Because both offense and defense are tied to initiative, that lessens the effectiveness of both even more. The only solely defensive (active) ability we have is our endurance-related dodges. Everything else is tied to offense as well, and every other profession has as many dodges as the base Thief. Even our defensive passives (e.g. Hard to Catch) are inferior to those of other professions (Mirror of Anguish/Reaper’s Protection).

Basically, the current Thief is forced to choose to build for sustain to live a while longer, but not be able to kill anything… or to be able to kills things, but not last long enough to actually do it.

Personally, I’d prefer all/most of these passive defenses to just be removed from the game. However, if they are not, then the Thief needs to be given the ability to either punch through them (offensive boost), negate them (offensive/defensive boost), or the ability to sustain them, then overcome them.

From a conceptual perspective, the Thief is definitely of the “rogue/assassin” archetype… the glass-cannon/hit-and-run design. Focusing on stealth, deception, and pinpoint accuracy to be effective, it doesn’t seem to make sense that it would ever set up a perfect ambush on a lone target, then the moment it strikes, without the victim even having a hint of its existence, the Thief’s stunning strike lands perfectly… only to stun itself or run away in uncontrollable fear. And in doing so, the Thief’s only advantage being that of surprise, is left standing there at a huge disadvantage.

Again, other professions may have the sustain to deal with those types of passives. The Thief does not. The Thief relies on not getting hit at all, and to open combat by stunning yourself… that’s just absurd. So it’s lose the first-strike advantage or use a stun-breaker… and the opponent hasn’t even attempted to stun you yet.

Now, you could make the ability to punch through or negate such passives a trait choice for the Thief. But everything is tied together. Every choice a Thief must make means sacrificing something else. That’s fine. But remember that the Thief is at an inherent disadvantage already. It is already playing “catch-up” with everyone else. Other professions already have sustain along with the power to down a Thief quickly.

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

—>Resistance to skills is nothing to discuss. It’s not balanced if a professions has a resistance to traps or other types of skills. In that case you should grant other professions as well resistances to some skills. I’ts way to ahrd to balance. And too OP for beeing baseline.

I suppose it all depends on what your standard is for judging balance. But I’ll go back to the reasoning that Thieves are unique. Thieves lack the passive defenses of others. Thieves lack the sustain of others. Thieves lack the AoE of others. Thieves lack the range of others. Thieves lack the damage output of others. Thieves lack the health pool of others. Thieves lack the condition removal of others. Thieves lack many important boons of others. There is no inherent advantage in being a Thief over anyone else… the base Thief has the same number of dodges, and even the same movement speed. Thieves can’t even trait to be passively faster. Yes, Thieves can use weapon-skills based on initiative instead of direct-cooldown, but once it’s gone, there’s no swapping weapons to gain more output.

So as far as a resistance to a certain type of skill goes, I can see justification for it. First, I’ll start with the least of the reasons, and that goes back to being roguish. Rogues are the anti-trap class. They detect traps, they disable traps. That alone is enough reason for a party to choose to take them in other games. While it may not be important in this game, it would fit the aura of the Thief.

Secondly, again, the Thief is an active playstyle and very fragile. Supposedly quite evasive as well if you care about the profession description. In order to actively defend against something, you must see/know it’s coming. Traps, until triggered, are invisible. Can you always see them being laid? No. So the only true tell is when it is actually triggered. Is that always enough time to identify what type of trap you’ve triggered and to get out of it before you’ve been hit hard (at least for Guardian traps), I suppose that’s up to player skill and latency. Not to mention traps that actually suck you into them… stacked on other traps.

Thirdly, not all traps are equal. Aren’t Guardians already considered a counter to Thieves? What kind of traps do Thieves get? One that knocks the target down. One that immobilizes and puts conditions on the target (which is weak for a power Thief). One that calls an AI Thief right beside you, not even at the target, which also reveals your position if you’re Stealthed. And one that does absolutely nothing to the target, but does briefly buff you and allows you to blindly “teleport” to the target IF you are lucky and don’t teleport into a wall 5 feet from your current position because of the game’s pathfinding issues. In other words, only one trap actually does any damage at all, and it’s condition damage. The others require you to be directly on top of your target to do any damage whatsoever. If this isn’t a call for the Thief needing a balance swing in its favor, I don’t know what is.

Finally, shutting down another profession’s abilities isn’t unknown to Guild Wars 2. The Thief, supposedly the master of Stealth, can be shut out of it quite easily. Look at all of the skills that Reveal a Stealthed target. Rangers, Engineers, Revenants, and even Guardians can Reveal the Thief. And while other professions can Stealth also, the Thief is the one that relies on it the most. Yet not even a Thief can Reveal anyone else (which makes no sense)… and can’t even Reveal itself without attacking something (which also makes no sense). So no, I don’t believe that giving the Thief (whether baseline or traited) the ability to counter traps would be so unprecedented. Revealed took that to a whole new level.

And again, there are many different ways this could be done. Even just making enemy traps visible to a Thief within a certain distance would be better than nothing. In fact, imagine the Thief being able to see traps, and when doing so, it makes the traps visible to others on the team also. Or, perhaps, give the Thief an extra half second or second to be in a trap before it triggers.

Of course, what I mentioned in my first post could happen. Thieves could simply walk over traps without triggering them, but still take damage if someone else triggered them. Thieves could take only a portion of damage from a trap. Thieves could disable a single trap instead of triggering it, though only one per 30 seconds or so, still making them vulnerable to stacked traps. Or Thieves could simply resist the “movement/containment” properties of certain traps, making it easier to escape or avoid.

I must confess, I still like the idea of triggering/disabling traps by Cluster Bombing them.

But yes, that’s my reasoning for these changes for the Thief… as long-winded and off-base as it may be. Again, different possibilities, different methods, different extents. Some may be baseline. Some may be traited. Some may be a combination. It’s a puzzle to be solved :-)

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

Sry, but all of this is absolutly OP XD

Compared to???

Asrat.2645:

3. No, quite the contrary: we should be vulnerable to being catched off-guard/by guards (sry, couldnt help it)
2 Is debatable. These passive defenses should be removed from the game altogether, but not for thieves specifically. Most of them are probably meant to counter one-hit thieves.
1 I would suggest a different approach: Weapon swap on 2-3 sec cooldown+initiative cost.
No cooldown at all would make things too easy and initiative refill would be op.
Ini cost however would even punish you more for burning your initiative too much, because it would become a little harder to change to shortbow and run.

3. Still vulnerable. Just not AS vulnerable. And speaking of traps, where’s the good ol’ “disable traps” ability for “rogues” in this game? Perhaps a Thief’s blast finisher could trigger traps. Cluster bombs from a safe distance :-)

2. Yes, I’d prefer the passives get removed entirely, but this is in the absence of that. Even if a Thief’s stun isn’t able to bypass Mirror of Anguish/etc., at least it could negate it so no one gets stunned. And sadly, I don’t even know what a one-hit Thief is these days.

1. Indeed, the lower cooldown is much preferable. Even if there is a small initiative cost if during combat.

EDIT: This is all speaking of the base Thief profession. I can’t speak for Daredevil. And also, thinking of passive traits, if there must be such a thing, why can’t other professions have something more aligned with Hard to Catch instead? It keeps us from getting stunned, but it doesn’t actually harm the attacker. Surely, there could be alternatives?

Mirror of Anguish: Break stun and create a phantasm

Reaper’s Protection: Break stun and gain 25% Life Force

Without assuming changes to any other profession, here are three things off the top of my head…

1. Either instant-weapon swap with no cooldown, or swapping weapons refills the initiative pool.

2. Give the Thief the ability to either punch through or negate passive defenses. Priorities would be self-harming defenses such as Mirror of Anguish, Reaper’s Protection, Amplified Wrath, and Retaliation.

3. The Thief’s nature seems to warrant some sort of immunity or resistance to traps specifically. Either by ignoring traps, disabling a trap (with cooldown), taking reduced damage, or at least resisting a trap’s movement/containment properties.

Thanks everyone! I tried Blood, but went back to Fire. Hopefully, it will work just fine :-)

Yeah, so I guess the best option would be to allow us to shoot arrows at max range even if we try to aim beyond it. At least that would let us put arrows onto targets directly below us.

Hello again!

I’m trying to figure out the best sigil to use for my build, but I can’t seem to put 2 and 2 together from the wiki pages. I’m debating on whether I should stick with the Sigil of Fire or switch to the Sigil of Blood.

I’m running a nearly complete glass cannon build…

Power: 2,555 (including Assassin’s Signet)

Crit Chance: 52.8% (+7 with Side Strikes)

Crit Damage: 223.4% (240.1% when under Fury)

Health: 11,645

I couldn’t really tell much damage difference for the Fire sigil between the different size golems. The highest Flame Blast damage done that I saw was 916, but it was usually less than that, probably averaging in the 800’s.

Unfortunately, the Blood sigil doesn’t list the damage done in the combat log, so I can’t compare directly. It supposedly does less damage, but ignores the target’s armor, so I didn’t know if it would hold the advantage against heavily armored targets.

And even if the Blood sigil did hit for less than Fire, would the extra healing be worth it for such a low-health build? Adding to that, will it still damage the target if I am at full health already?

Thank you! :-D

AegisFLCL.7623:

Team A: Thief, Scrapper, Scrapper, Scrapper, Druid

You know what will happen, don’t you? The loss will be blamed on the Thief because he didn’t change to a Scrapper ;-)

But yes, I don’t care for the multiple professions achievment. And it seems more beneficial to require 3 wins per day instead of participation.

Anari.2137:

I am not a fan of the instant death concept. It is against the concept concept of play and counter play, which i think its very important for the suspense and over all balance and health of the game.

Yes, I think that’s what I don’t understand. The Thief is easily a victim of insta-death (or even near-insta-death with Marauder), but does not have the ability to deal insta-death (save for the instances I mentioned above).

I’m running full Berserker, Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery, Fire/Air sigils, and Assassin’s Signet, and I still cannot punch through defenses quickly enough. I am running Pack runes instead of Scholar runes for more sustained damage.

What I find really odd is that other professions get my kind of damage (or more) along with defenses. In my opinion, too many passive defenses at that. And even Daredevil’s sustain is locked behind HoT. So it seems that a glass cannon Thief is really only truly effective against another glass cannon. Having never played WoW, I fear I cannot compare the two games.

I like the idea of balance, especially in the form of “active vs passive.”

As a Thief player, I do hope there’s more balance in that regard. Especially by giving the Thief more active defenses (outside of Daredevil) in the way that others have been given passive defenses. Also the ability to negate certain passives such as Mirror of Anguish.

But I cannot really agree with the Thief being used as an example of an “instant killer.” I’ve been playing as a Berserker Thief recently. Even if caught completely by surprise, no Thief has been able to down me within a few seconds if their initial burst. I’m always able to extend the fight. Nor have I been able to instantly down anyone without using a one-trick signet/trapper build… and that only works with complete surprise against a squishy target.

Just saying that the Thief isn’t what it used to be, sadly. I still don’t understand why a “glass cannon’s” power isn’t as great as its vulnerability.

Too an extent. I use that feature, but for some reason I get the “out of range” message a lot… at least in certain circumstances.

Try going to the very top of the Clock Tower in Khylo, then shooting a Cluster Bomb through the opening onto the point.

The problem with that is even though you are directly on top of the point, there is no surface between you and the point, which is out of range. And I don’t believe the “lock at max range” feature does anything in that specific case, so there is no actual way to loose a Cluster Bomb or Choking Gas arrow. You can shoot an auto-attack because it doesn’t matter if a target is beyond range (or any target at all), and that will actually hit. I’m guessing if you actually were able to loose a Cluster Bomb or Choking Gas arrow, it would hit also, even though it is technically out of range. So all that would need to be done is allow the attacks to actually activate.

The added range if elevated may be more complicated to code.

But to shoot an arrow at maximum range even if targeting beyond maximum range should be quite simple.

The Shortbow already has a rather short range of 900. This means we are already outgunned on level ground. But it is quite annoying to find a good overlooking position above the battlefield (a WvW tower wall or the Clock Tower roof in Khylo), then not be able to even shoot two of your arrow types (Cluster Bomb and Choking Gas) when the enemy is almost directly below you because it is “out of range.”

So I would request one of two things. Either extend the range of an elevated archer or, the most likely thing to happen, allow us to shoot an arrow at the maximum range even if we are aiming beyond the maximum range. Just let “gravity” take over by not destroying the projectile until it contacts the ground or other obstruction.

It may not seem like much, but not being able to drop an arrow on somebody standing directly beneath you is quite annoying. Thanks! :-)

I’d prefer it to keep me from being on the same team as someone, not to keep me from playing against them.

Sounds good to me. Either that, or just make the F3 key enter into Shortbow mode so you can still retain all five skills. I’m all for having a second main weapon set :-)

Thanks. Yeah, solo-q can get rough for Thieves.

I’m currently running a very squishy build, so defending a point or getting into that slugfest at mid is likely to end up with me dead quickly.

Personally, I prefer to Stealth in my spawn and intercept anyone exiting their inside spawn. I do enjoy the thrill of intercepting the initial mid-rush at the choke points, but that is usually not a good idea, haha! So I’m thinking of just picking off the trailing player from behind to make it one less opponent at the initial mid-fight.

Against my current level opponents, when I do go immediately for far, my “assassin” build usually allows me to either win the fight quickly or to force another opponent to help. But I have to be very careful to not get into team fights or I’m burnt toast.

Looking for recommended strategies for a Thief at the beginning of a Forest of Niflhel match.

Is a Thief best used to secure home, support mid, attack beasts, push far, or intercept/delay opponents inbound for home/mid?

And also, with all of the “Thief rules” such as “don’t 1v1” or “don’t make fights even, only make fights outnumbered,” where should a squishy Thief go if the enemy is making a 4-man push on mid, but a friendly is already capping home?

Thief

• Stealth no longer ends when you attack.
• Steal now transfers ownership of a random weapon from your opponent to you.

It’s about time! This is the way it should have always been!
And here, I thought Anet was actually losing touch! ;-P

Thanks. Now, if only squishy targets had a sign on their backs that said, “Stab Me” :-P

The players I stab tend to be heavies… and it just makes them angry :-P
But, hey, I can always count on Thieves to be squishy! ;-D

babayum.1895:

I did a 18k backstab on a necro a few weeks ago in sPvP using a full signet build with might on signets etc. Full damage kitten build.

18k was just the backstab though, add mug + air + fire and its more like 22k damage. He went from 100% to 0% in just a single hit lol

Very nice! If I may ask, what tactics are you using?

With my signet/trapper build, I pretty much have to get to an empty point, lay a Shadow Trap, then either leave before someone comes… or just look like I’m running away for my life when they see me :-P

If they do trigger my trap, I activate Assassin’s Signet, Shadow Pursuit, then Trip Wire on top of them, and finally follow with the BackStab. Way too much setup, so it’s not so reliable :-P

I suppose some months ago may not be recent, but I got a 17,888 Backstab on a fellow Thief in PvP using a signet/trapper blend to ambush. Poor guy never saw it coming. Sadly, that seems to be the only way it works… and only if targets don’t have passive immunities to Immobilize or Stun. But when it does work, it is quite fun! ;-)

Thank you kindly! :-)

My first question is one due to a hiatus from the game. Having just recently returned, I’ve found that there seems to no longer be special icons for the HoT specializations. Yet I still read team chatter about there being a Druid or whatever on the other team before the match even begins. Is there actually any way to know if that is the case before meeting them in combat?

The second question concerns lords in maps like Legacy and Stronghold. What is the best way to deal with the lord? And how does a Thief deal the most damage to the lord? If I’m first on the scene, I usually try to take out the guards. But the Lords are quite stout for me… even as a DA/CS Zerker Thief. Yesterday, my whole team was attacking the Stronghold lord, and I was constantly attacking with auto-attacks and Shadow Shots, then Heartseekers when the lord’s health was under 50%. But I could barely dent it.

Thanks for the help! :-D

serenade.9685:

You are recommending to me escape? Okay blink out and they will come back. Again blink?
————————————
How you can defence it without playing wvw or eom? You give us just theory when i’m talking about facts.

Have you played a Ghost Trapper build before? It relies solely on Stealth to not die and conditions to kill. If you have enough condition removal, you can sit there and laugh at the Thief. Believe me, I’ve had Elementalists with the old Diamond Skin trait do just that.

I forget the name, but there was a power trapper build, and it was very nasty also. It simply did it’s killing with normal attacks.

So I would suggest to play as the build so you know its limitations. As I’ve said before, in the video, the Thief threw absolutely everything at the target. EVERYTHING was on cooldown. He didn’t even have a dodge left.

And there is nothing wrong with running away from a lopsided fight. Thief players understand this the most as this is what they are told they are “supposed” to do against just about everybody. I’ve had random professions chase me all the way around maps before. The Thief isn’t THAT fast… especially after combat.

serenade.9685:

how you can know attacking 1, 2 or 3 or more thieves? Yea you dont.

You’ll know it’s only one Thief if you aren’t dead yet. If there are more than one Thief and you’re still alive, you don’t really need to worry about them anyway. Actually, that question reminds me of fighting multiple Mesmers that are identical and have the same name except for one character. Talk about annoying… wow!

Hanza.6872:

Will give it a go. In Emerald now 14/16 won. Decent streak, but not going all out on this project. Wanna keep it fun!

Having never tried ranked until two days ago, I just hit Ruby with a YOLO build for fun. Wanting to see how far I can take it…

Zerker love ;-)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhenYjTw0Jw/EHwE1+CWuB1HGxRboTgAIDA-TJBFwA12foaZABnCAAPBAA

Asrat.2645:

As long as we are as mobile, we cant be too strong in 1v1.
———————————
And: ‘mobility is not a combat skill.’
That is not true. Mobility is the strongest combat skill.
It doesnt matter what games you play, but movement, positioning, rotation, whatever you want to call it, its a pro players asset and will win the war.
It will not win the fight unfortunately, and thats why a lot of us are so frustrated.

Jana.6831:

Also: Kageseigi and you meant different kinds of mobility, I think.
Mobility in combat is being hampered with chill and slow (although I’m not sure that many classes can apply it) – so there is already counterplay and for my taste it’s too much counterplay actually. It’s not as if thieves or anyone can really move around like they want to (in combat). When it comes to travelling distances mobility isn’t really a combat skill, with that Kageseigi was right. And, like I said: Other classes can do that as well.

That may very well be the case. Two different types of mobility. And the following is the reasoning for my way of thinking… be it accurate or not…

As for in-combat mobility, we can’t run any faster than anyone else. And swiftness is everywhere. We can’t dodge any more than anyone else (unless you’re a Daredevil). You could dodge slightly more with Acrobatics, but then you lose damage potential, and that’s already lacking. Chill and Crippled still affect us as much as anyone unless you take Acrobatics, which again decreases damage potential.

The main source of combat mobility is in our shadowsteps, and that’s mainly tied into weapons. And each of those has their own weaknesses. The Sword/Dagger is, perhaps, the strongest in mobility, giving both gap closer as well as gap opener… plus evades. Dagger/Pistol has a blinding gap closer which is amazing, but it lacks a gap opener and evades. Dagger/Dagger lacks a shadowstepping gap closer, any kind of gap opener, and also blinds. Pistol/Dagger has the gap opener a ranged weapon needs, but the weapon set is slow for killing, and Pistol/Pistol provides nothing.

Shortbow is by far the most mobile weapon, but it’s combat mobility is extremely limited. Infiltrator’s Arrow is mainly an escape tool. Disabling Shot provides evades, but it does use valuable initiative, and using it also means you’re locked out of melee combat for 10 seconds.

What is the main problem with Dagger/Pistol’s Shadow Shot? The same problem that Steal has. It’s a one-way ticket into the jaws of death. Blinding the opponent is very helpful, but it only lasts for one strike. What happens after that? You start eating everything. You can blind again, but it takes time, and it uses initiative. You can dodge to create distance, but dodges are scarce, and what are you going to do outside of melee range? Just rinse and repeat until you’re out of initiative and/or dodges. The best case scenario is that you did enough damage to down your target. If not, it’s time to switch to Shortbow and get out of there… provided you have the 6 initiative to do so… and provided that your opponent does not also have the mobility to catch you or ranged weapons to down you.

As for out-of-combat mobility, yes, we’ve got it. Thieves can travel long distances faster than others consistently. How much faster? It depends on the path. but as for flat ground, there are some pretty speedy competitors out there. So is our mobility that much greater than others to justify our disadvantage in close combat? I don’t think so.

The point being that mobility doesn’t help a squishy Thief to kill a tanky Guardian… or “name your profession here.”

There are only two things that can do that. Either strengthen the Thief or weaken the opponent. And there are only two ways to effectively strengthen the Thief. Either improve its offense or improve its melee defense.

Until then, using a WWII example, we are like little Sherman tanks trying to take on a giant Tiger tank. We may be fast, but we are at a significant disadvantage if we ever get into combat range.

I’m not saying make the Thief super-powerful or easy to play. Just give us a good shot at holding our own in melee without having to run away. Even if it’s just easier to get and stay behind an opponent so we’re not as vulnerable.

Basically, it comes down to this. We can’t use tricks like making our opponent fight facing into the sun so he’s blinded. We can position ourselves on cliffs to have position advantages, but so can anyone else. But it all comes down to the fact that the Thief is a melee fighter. In order to do full damage, it must be in melee range of the target. In doing so, the Thief is extremely vulnerable to incoming melee attacks… and it cannot afford to trade blows with anyone. So no matter how fast you can move around the map, when you’re face-to-face with the baddie, you’re going to die.

Example… “Dodge This”
https://youtu.be/ggFKLxAQBbc?t=17

Random question. How do you feel about single skills that last longer than a single dodge can evade?

Should they exist or not? Or should they only exist in limited circumstances like being rooted in place or attacking only in one direction (not tracking)?

Krysard.1364:

TBH as long as thieves mobility/stealth keeps untouched, they should not be able to 1v1 anything when equally skilled.

I still don’t understand this way of thinking.

Mobility and Stealth doesn’t make a great fighter. It makes a great racer, and it makes great bait, but it definitely doesn’t make you deadly. And this isn’t a racing game. Speed helps, but it is SIGNIFICANTLY less important than lethality.

And what’s the purpose of a PvP game where you can’t be deadly?

Yes, Thieves can hit hard.
But so can others.
And Thieves cannot hit hard enough to break through armor, high health pools, and passives.

Yes, Thieves can hit fast.
But many others can also.
And Thieves cannot hit fast enough to avoid dying.
However, Thieves can die very quickly.

Yes, Thieves can hit without notice.
But they cannot hit hard enough to kill a target that is paying attention and knows how to play.
Even as the GLASSIEST of Thieves, I cannot remember the last time another Thief insta-downed me… even when he catches me completely unaware.

And that’s really the sad truth to it. Thieves aren’t much of a threat (relatively speaking) to my Thief… because their bursts are too weak, and I’m evasive. They also have no advantages over me. It’s really a matter of who can outplay the other. But almost any other profession IS a threat.

Again, mobility and Stealth may allow me to run away and engage on my terms, but it does NOT help me kill something. The Thief is a melee fighter. If it stays out of melee, it can’t apply full damage. If it stays in melee, it’s like a fly waiting to get swatted.

And that’s not even mentioning the issue about having to focus on a single target instead of having lots of AoE potential. Can’t even focus one target down easily. Yet other professions can down me easily with AoE or single-target attacks.

I keep going back to Ninja Gaiden. In that game, you’re squishy, but you have a lot of active defense potential. In Guild Wars 2, you don’t have the active defenses needed in order to survive… especially without Daredevil. If swapping weapons refilled the initiative pool, it would help tremendously, but it doesn’t. Or insta-weapon swap with no cooldown would allow you to change your fighting style on the fly… as well as open up evasive capabilities without locking you out of damage potential for 10 seconds.

The bottom line is this. Mobility is not a combat skill. Stealth is not a combat skill. They help you enter combat. They help you exit combat. They do not help you win combat. They help you to not die. And not dying is completely different than winning.

It’s making me want insta-weapon swap (no cooldown) even more! Not having access to DareDevil, I could at least combo Choking Gas with Heartseeker without getting stuck on one weapon for 10 seconds.