Guild Wars 2

Please don’t remove one of the two sources of +25% movement increases for Thieves without HoT.

Personally, I’d prefer to make the increased movement speed baseline for the Thief to give it a better shot at melee as well as lessen the need for the Shortbow’s mobility.

If the Thief was never visible, I’m curious how Basilisk Venom was applied.

Could it have been Mug in combination with Hidden Thief? If so, he would have to have great timing or positioning, I suppose… unless it allows a Stealthed Thief to do damage on Steal and stay Stealthed… which I was unaware of.

Perhaps it was used with the Ambush trap? But there was no mention of an AI Thief either.

Like I said, I’m quite curious to know how it happened.

Jana.6831:

“I suggest a nerf which is actually a huge buff”
Well, ok, then, why do you claim it would be a nerf?

Because originally, I hadn’t thought of the possibilities of how to make the change without it seeming like a nerf. But I did say it could seem like a nerf, because it would be manually targeted, thus increasing the skill to hit. I had forgotten about the options to lock a ground-targeted skill to a selected target. Stuff like that happens when posting a random thought at 4am in the morning :-P

vaxjani.9073:

With this change, the initiative cost should also be raised to 6, or if it would stay 4, then the range decreased to 600.

Indeed, this is why, after more consideration, I have decided that this change would be much more suited to Black Powder instead.

Dagger.2035:

If this buff makes it into the game why would you bother with another weapon set. Just run D/P with D/P .

Haha, that may be true, though if it is an actual concern, remember that doubling of on a weapon set is ONLY good for weapon-swap sigils. Outside of that, it makes you very one dimensional.

After thinking it over, Shadow Shot is clearly not the best skill option for this change. It is better off with another skill altogether. So I will be revising the concept as a whole for that particular skill as well as making an argument for it.

So this thread is basically obsolete, and will be retitled to reflect that. Thank you all for the feedback. I hope to get renewed feedback once the new changes and argument are made! :-)

Ps. No more posting sweeping changes at 4am for me :-P

@soulknight

I’m not arguing anything. Merely stating that Thieves feel your pain. Especially Thieves with no access to Daredevil.

Believe me, I know how it is to get insta-downed. It has happened to me many times against nearly every profession… save for other Thieves, oddly enough.

All I’m saying is that I’ve been there… even while Elementalists could bunker a point independently… 7 seconds was sometimes an eternity for me in a fight. So I know what you’re going through.

Again, I don’t have HoT. I’m stuck playing a sub-par, non-meta build. So you’ve got my sympathy.

I just edited the original post in order to more accurately reflect the intent of the suggested change. I also added the possible methods to achieve the new functionality with minimal change to the current functionality.

I do apologize for any misunderstandings in my intention. I hope the edited version clears everything up. Enjoy! :-D

EDIT: After thinking more about it, Black Powder may actually seem like a better skill to be a ground-targeted shadowstep. Not only would it give mobility to more weapon sets (D/P, S/P, P/P), but it has the higher initiative cost already as well as an AoE Blind that would be much more effective if it could be used at range.

I edited to add a PS. for clarification at the end.

And to clarify once more, I’m not looking to nerf D/P or Shadow Shot at all. Nor am I looking to specifically buff it. What I am suggesting is merely to make a change in functionality.

Yes, it may be more difficult to hit the target for the Blind and damage, but it would add extra versatility and utility to the skill, weapon set, and Thief as a whole. Not to mention that you can still auto-lock a ground-targeted skill to your selected target in the options menu.

I’m curious… do Thief players actually prefer to be locked into Shortbow as the second weapon?

Yes, if this change took place, then the initiative cost may need to be increased to match Infiltrator’s Arrow. Or not. I don’t know. But that’s really the only possible nerf that I could see.

I’d even be up for adding the small AoE Blind that Infiltrator’s Arrow has instead of the single-target Blind of Shadow Shot, making actually striking the target unneeded. The Thief could even make a swipe with its dagger to try to hit something in front of it just in case it landed next to an enemy without the projectile directly hitting the target. In other words, very minimal changes to the actual attack.

Or, how about this?
When you have a target selected, Shadow Shot works as normal.
But if you have no target selected, you may ground-target the shot.
Sounding less like a nerf now?

Many believe Shadow Shot to be overpowered relative to other skills, making Dagger/Pistol also overpowered relative to other weapon sets. And that may very well be true. But what if Shadow Shot may actually be the key to allowing more diversity among Thieves? What if Shadow Shot were actually changed to be more versatile, allowing the Thief to become a more versatile fighter as a whole?

How can it be done???…

Shadow Shot becomes a ground-targeted skill. If the projectile hits a target instead of the ground, it acts as it does now: the Thief shadowsteps to the target, the target is blinded, and the Thief strikes the target with a dagger.
However, if the projectile hits the ground, the Thief simply shadowsteps to that location.

Does it sound familiar? It should.
Yes, this will basically make Infiltrator’s Arrow redundant, making the Shortbow rather obsolete.

There are two different methods that could allow this new functionality to exist without altering the current functionality too much…

1. Shadow Shot could always be a ground-targeted skill, but could be locked onto the currently selected target by use of the existing option in the options menu.

2. If the Thief has a target selected, Shadow Shot will function as normal. However, if there is no target selected, then Shadow Shot becomes ground-targeted.

In short, it would make D/P the virtually-required set for every viable Thief. However, in doing so, it will also allow every Thief to choose a second combat weapon set instead of a utility weapon.

You may hate the D/P playstyle, but you could use it just for the shadowstep, the same reason you use the Shortbow. Or you could still take the Shortbow if you wish. Take D/D or S/D or the weapon set of your choosing.

I’m not saying to delete the Shortbow, but perhaps it would necessitate improvements to it’s functionality.

Personally, I do not see this change as buffing the D/P set so much as I see it giving viability and opportunity to other weapon sets. Honestly, isn’t the sole reason that very few people take anything other than D/P and Shortbow is simply to shadowstep around the map? D/P is for viability, Shortbow is for mobility. Give D/P the mobility, then you remove the need for Shortbow. Then you give every Thief a free choice to take their favorite or next favorite weapon set.

Yes, you may actually see Thieves (like me) taking both D/P and S/D just to be able to mix up combat tactics mid-fight. Wow, I used to love to do that… before I became reliant on Shortbow #5. I wish I could do so again and remain viable.

Anyway, it’s just a passing thought from a bored Thief. Opinions? Suggestions?

Ps. If you can’t tell, I play D/P, but I’m sick of being stuck with it and Shortbow. So my intent is not to buff D/P. My purpose is to remain viable while taking another weapon set. I’m not asking for nerfs to D/P just so other sets become better choices in relation, I just want a simple change in order to make other sets a true choice to use along with D/P, not in spite of it.

EDIT: Changed the preface in order to more accurately describe my intent. Also added a new idea of functionality that is in my next post.

apharma.3741:

Auto attacks will remove something like 3.6-6k depending on how many of them crit, 6k being if all crit and takes 1.68s with no quickness to complete. The ele will die in just under 7s if they do nothing, if they heal up they’re still forced to run or have someone come wasting their cool downs and rendering the team thinking “why did we bring someone who’s having to burn cool downs to look after themselves and gives us nothing?”

Also Kageseigi, ele is factually the squishiest profession in the game in terms of base stats and requires heavy trait investment in order to not be squishy. While thieves are also squishy they also have a lot of damage mitigation to through blinds and removal of target lock via stealth without mentioning the near limitless dodges daredevil brought and complete immunity to all soft CC.

You’ll get no argument from me about what is the squishiest profession at the moment. All I can tell you is that Thieves know exactly how it is to get killed in a few seconds… especially when going up against certain professions. And that goes double for us Thieves who don’t have HoT and go DA/CS/T. Can’t 1v1 fairly, can’t take a point, can’t hold a point. We may have Blinds and Stealth, but we lack any sort of Protection or blocks or Stability, and we have very little condi-removal. At the same time, many other professions have a plethora of passive and/or active defenses that the power Thief simply can’t break through. Running away or hiding are our only options, and that makes a combat-oriented Thief sad :-(

Though I would welcome any Elementalist players to try out a glass Thief build. They may or may not find it more rewarding than the Ele at the moment, but I assure them that it will improve their reflexes for when they switch back, though the Ele may seem quite slow when they do.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

That trait that reflects cc is a pest.

You mean Pest Of Unusual Size???

soulknight.9620:

Kind sir, may i invite you to a magical journey – playing a few games as a new and updated (balanced) elementalist?

Ah, I thought that may have been why you were feeling the Thief’s ultimate bursting power! I feel for you, though… honestly. It’s not easy being the squishiest profession in the game. Full glass zerker Thief says hello. I may have the destructive power of the Death Star, but the Warrior just uses the Force and ignores my super laser… then laughs at me :-(

Hey, but at least enemy Thieves got nerfed also… so that makes the Thief balanced… right? :-P

Besides, Thieves clearly outmatch Guardians by running away. A properly equipped Thief should give the Guardian absolutely no hope of ever catching it… at least until the Thief gets caught in Dragonhunter traps that got left at an empty point earlier. But hey, you can’t win them all!

emkelly.2371:

DP
Get the drop on them and kill them in 1.5 seconds

Just to clarify, that means don’t use CC! :-P

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I saw a Trapper thief in Unranked in Revenge of the Capricornit was pretty funny, he would never engage and only decap/ backcap

Well, you have to admit, he knew his limits! :-P

Alas, the Thief feels left out again :-(

Well, I’m sure the Thief would cheer up if it could actually be the single-target that it supports. Indeed, a self-supporting role. I like it! :-D

DeceiverX.8361:

People have been proposing hit-less CnD for years, and despite being heavily invested in D/D power, I actually do not think it is a good idea. D/D’s kit by concept is around having tools to deal with foes while out of stealth, such as through extra evasion on DB and mobility impairment on Dancing Dagger. The problem is both of these skills are underwhelming, and in most cases are objectively worse in every way even when combined to simply using Shadow Shot.

I’m actually starting to get curious about the actual purpose of Stealth, and what advantages remain in it.

Hiding is the main thing, I suppose, at least without Shadow Arts. Stealth Attacks hardly seem to be very effective anymore.

With Shadow Arts, it grants condition removal, health/initiative regeneration, damage mitigation, and a speed boost.

While I don’t play D/D much anymore, when I do, I find that the main problem is getting close enough to land a CnD, meaning that I require Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet combinations just to land CnD to gain Stealth. So for me personally, a better gap closer than Heartseeker on the actual set would be helpful. That’s one reason I would favor Stealth on demand… to gain a speed boost and be able to close the distance with a good chance to avoid getting hit.

Or perhaps find a way to add a combination between two D/D skills to enter Stealth that would cost more than CnD by itself. Or at least a skill granting Swiftness or Superspeed to add closing/kiting/escaping ability.

And speaking of speed, I’m curious to know what your opinion is of adding a baseline speed boost to the Thief profession? Perhaps not the full 25% that Signet of Shadows offers, but something that does give an inherent boost to the combat mobility of the Thief. It would affect D/D, so it may fit into this thread.

Ps. To go back to the subject of non-Stealth with D/D, what are effective techniques? With D/P, I can use Shadow Shot to blind (avoid damage) and get into position for auto-attacks plus Headshot to interrupt. But I don’t even know where to begin with non-Stealth combat with D/D… at least as a power Thief. Death Blossom doesn’t seem as effective or as easy to control as Shadow Shot, and Dancing Daggers doesn’t seem reliable against defenses.

Svarty.8019:

benefits stealth classes enormously.

I think that’s kind of the purpose of Stealth.

But I played a pure glass cannon Thief throughout Season 2.
Berserker DA/CS/T. 11k health.
I cannot remember the last time a lone Thief has ever been able to burst me down from 100%… even with Basilisk Venom and complete surprise.
I have always been able to extend the fight. And that goes way back before Season 2.

What I’ve concluded from that is that if a true glass Thief can withstand a surprise burst from another Thief, then anything can. Stun breakers are key, though.

The passive immunities and CC-refects are out of hand, though. Personally, I see them as the worst problem the Thief faces now. While a Thief clearly cannot compete in a fair 1v1, a Thief cannot even depend on a perfectly executed ambush against a completely unaware target. The Thief will either self-stun itself or transform the target into a brick wall for several seconds… more than enough time for the target to turn the tables on the Thief.

Jortakk.6792:

- You could achieve permanent, uninterruptible (albeit after the first CnD) stealth with just the /D, Meld with Shadows and Shadow’s Rejuvenation, without any help from utilities, stealth skills or runes, something even D/P can’t achieve. It would be the old Infusion of Shadow all over again, which isn’t a good thing.

If Meld with Shadow’s did not affect CnD (I don’t know if it currently does), then you shouldn’t be able to maintain permanent Stealth without utilities, similar to D/P.

With 15 initiative, and at a cost of 6 initiative per CnD, even with Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you should still only be able to get 4 CnD’s before running out of enough initiative to remain in Stealth… as long as Meld with Shadows is made to not affect CnD, just as it doesn’t affect combinations.

The uninterruptible Stealth is true, however, with the introduction of a blast finisher on dodge, that point became rather moot, not to mention the blast finisher on Blinding Powder. However, the initial CnD would still be interruptible just as the initial Heartseeker through Black Powder is.

And again, the D/D set itself has no shadowsteps or instant gap closers, so it is the set that needs longer Stealth uptime compared to everything else.

Not to mention that Stealth on demand would be a tremendous help to all off-hand Dagger sets. S/D would gain much greater sustain and tactical ability. P/D would gain more viability by not needing to ever get within melee range to apply pressure with Sneak Attack. In fact, it may cause a resurgence in x/D builds.

Hanza.6872:

We get immunity to conditions while in stealth by a trait or skill?

Direct damage can be avoided by skill. But what can we do against a stacked condi burst? Go into stealth to die?

We do have Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow’s Rejuvenation. However, we can’t use them without giving up control of a point, which is what this whole idea is about… to allow a Thief to take advantage of the sustain that Stealth provides while still being able to contest a point.

The difficulty in gaining that ability is finding a a method that is not “considered” overpowered, imbalanced, or annoying. People don’t like fighting a something they can’t see, and whether or not it is an actual problem, it is perceived to be.

For what you want for conditions, I would think that there are two ways to go about that. Shadow Refuge could pulse Resistance. Or it could cleanse conditions per pulse similar to Healing Seed.

The only issue I can think of is that players have already learned how to counter Shadow Refuge, and AoE’s are one of the main options to do so. Taking away one of their counters may cause an uproar, whether it is justified or not.

What the real obstacle is, however, is to give the devs something that they will receive as acceptable. And considering how difficult that is with even small changes, I fear that almost anything may be overreaching.

With the addition of the 1-second cooldown for Stealth Attacks, I believe there may be new life for a proposed change to Shadow Refuge.

Accepting that Warriors can have 8 seconds of immunity to direct damage while still fighting and contesting a point, and that Rangers can have 6 seconds of immunity to direct damage while still fighting and contesting a point, I would offer the following…

While inside of Shadow Refuge’s boundary, the Thief may contest a point as well as be immune to being Revealed.

In essence, this allows the Thief specifically to fight on point and receive all of the benefits of being in Stealth (hiding, condition removal, healing, damage mitigation, etc.) for up to 4 seconds. It will also allow the Thief to engage any enemy who comes within range (be it melee or at range).

The Thief will still be self-Revealed if it leaves the boundaries of Shadow Refuge before the skill completes, so opponents could still knock the Thief out of the area.

Again, it is only 4 seconds compared with 8 for the Warrior and 6 for the Ranger. The Thief would still be vulnerable to direct damage, condition damage, and CC, as well as being Revealed by knockbacks. Along with the new cooldown, that will allow a maximum of 3 Backstabs.

Thoughts?

I wonder if a simple 3 seconds of Stealth on Cloak and Dagger (without needing to hit something) would help Dagger/Dagger enough.

It would be a pretty cheap way to enter Stealth compared to Black Powder. It could be stacked 3 to 4 times if you commit all of your initiative, similar to Black Powder. But it would be lacking the combo field and Shadow Shot to assist in melee or gap closing, so it wouldn’t be trying to mimic Dagger/Pistol.

It would give a bit more flexibility, however, in that you don’t have to commit to stacking Stealth at the beginning like you do with D/P. You can CnD once, then if you can’t get in position for a Backstab, just CnD the air again to gain 3 more seconds.

If my calculations are correct, and you’re running with Preparedness, then you can stack a total of 12 seconds of Stealth… the same amount you can get with D/P.

DeceiverX.8361:

This isn’t a thief-exclusive issue, either. It applies to all scaling-based builds with few boons. This is the best possible change for the game as a whole, and further the thief is simply dependent on it for most of its class concepts to function properly.

Thank you for the insight. Hopefully, the devs will implement such a change :-)

DeceiverX.8361:

Otherwise I agree with you; buffing its numbers will not affect anything; Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger need a redesign, and the damage from 7/26 needs to be undone.

I can’t speak for WvW, but in PvP, I usully use DA/CS/T for the damage output (SA feels so weak). I know it lacks power compared to WvW, but I still feel that much of the problem comes from all of the passive defenses of other professions.

What is your take on passives, and what would you suggest for the Thief to become more of a competitive fighter in PvP?

Would it be to simply normalize the stats between PvP and PvE/WvW, giving more damage/sustain to PvP? Or to give counters against passives? Or something in addition to or something different entirely?

I was playing on Capricorn with a build I’m not used to, a Shadow Arts Thief. I went down on point in a 1v2 against a Dragonhunter and a Thief. The DH tried to stomp me, but I teleported to the other side of the point. A friendly came and downed the Thief. I kept throwing daggers at the DH to bounce them to kill the Thief who went into Stealth. My friendly healed me enough to keep me alive until I could rally off the Thief. Then we killed the DH to cap the point.

The DH wrote over chat that I was a useless Thief.

I made my way across to the Docks point to decap it. I got there a little before a friendly and that same DH. I decided to let my friendly take the point while I intercepted the DH. Between my friendly’s ranged attacks and my melee, we took down the DH again.

The DH insulted me again, which I ignored… I can’t even remember what he said. So I just sent him a wink. Then it happened… he told me to wait there so we could 1v1.

Yes, I ignored it and went to help the rest of my team secure the victory. But all the time, I’m like… “What is that guy thinking? A core Thief 1v1 against a Dragonhunter?” I bet he likes to steal candy from babies as well.

Just a thought. I’ve heard about 8v8 or 10v10, but why not 9v9 with no class stacking? That way, every profession would represented equally.

That would also alleviate a lot of the inter-profession balance problems because each team would have the same advantages and disadvantages as the other.

While it’s up for debate, I would suggest 5 control zones per map, which would still force a team to leave at least one zone lightly defended with a maximum of a single player. I can think of at least two possible locations for each map.

The two extra control zones can either take the place of secondary objectives, or can be in addition to them. They could even have special functions themselves such as the following examples…

1. A zone is worth 2 points per tick.

2. A zone is worth 0 points itself, however, if controlled, it doubles the score per tick of every other zone that is controlled by that team.

3. A zone halves the respawn time of the controlling team.

4. A zone occasionally pulses a boon for the players of the controlling team. For example, 2 seconds of Stability every 5 seconds.

5. A zone grants a one-time effect if controlled, then is instantly neutralized when the effect activates. For example, if a point is controlled, and a player of that controlling team is downed, it will be instantly revived. Note that the effect does not have to be activated instantly like the Bell in Capricorn. By not being activated instantly upon capture, this will allow the other team to decap the zone before the effect can take place.

As for how to actually get the players needed for the match, it will most likely take a longer queue than 5v5 Conquest, however, it should still be doable.

The way I can think of accomplishing this is the following. In the PvP game selection menu, have a check box for each profession. If a player does not have a character associated with a given profession, those specific check boxes will be greyed out. A player may check all of the professions that s/he is willing to play in that match. The more professions the player checks means it will likely be faster to find an available match.

The system would search for players for each of the professions until all the slots are filled. Depending on the population at a given time, it may have to give up skill balance in order to find all professions in a timely manner, but I suppose that is preferable to having long wait times. And if there is enough of a population at a certain time, those profession check boxes may allow for the option to distinguish between a player’s primary choices and secondary choices.

Anyway, just a thought.

There are already semi-exculsive runes…

Rune of the Chronomancer affects wells, which only 2 professions have access to.

Rune of the Druid affects glyphs, which only 2 professions have access to.

Rune of the Ranger affects a player that has an active companion… whatever that can mean.

Runes of the Dragonhunter and Trapper affect traps, which only 3 professions have access to.

Oddly enough, Runes of the Daredevil and Thief can be useful for everyone.

So I don’t see why there cannot be semi-exclusive amulets and sigils… or even completely exclusive.

Though I think it would be better to just overhaul the entire PvP building system.

AikijinX.6258:

This nerf should split into 2 parts or optional, because this was put into place to balance and counteract the new Grandmaster Shadow Arts Trait. Rendering Shade. Anet should simply devise a plan where anyone who wants to use that trait, gets penalized with this 1sec ICD. While reverting the ICD back to the way it was with people not using the trait.

Hmm, now that makes me think. Now that there is a cooldown to Stealth Attacks, does that mean we can do away we the whole self-Revealed mechanic after successfully landing a Stealth Attack?

For example, if a Thief is in Stealth, and hits a target with Heartseeker, then the Thief is self-Revealed. But if a Thief in Stealth hits a target with Backstab, the Thief remains in Stealth.

Basically, it means that Stealth can be kept for its full duration, but at the cost of less damage (one attack per second).

While I didn’t make changes to weapons, you can check my signature for my suggested overhaul of Critical Strikes.

I changed it to affect all direct damage instead of only critical damage… which I think would truly make it a much more viable choice for any Thief, not just precision Thief.

I also gave each traitline it’s own theme, so traits that affect the same discipline are concentrated into single lines instead of being spread across many.

Check my signature for my suggested changes to the traitlines.

I attempted to follow a theme for every traitline.

Though I did move traps to Trickery instead of Shadow Arts.

Aeolus.3615:

@Kageseigi.2150

Cant you just knock/pull guardian out of its traps????

For sure he will panic….

Unfortunately, the only pull I have access to is Scorpion Wire. It is far too unreliable to depend on even when it does actually hit. Even if it did work well, I require Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep just to survive, and my third slot rotates between Shadow Trap, Haste, Assassin’s Signet, Shadow Refuge, and Blinding Powder… depending on the build and situation. But yes, I would love to have a dependable pull/knockback available.

ResJudicator.7916:

What? Just walk into the trap and then dodge backwards.

Oh, believe me, if that didn’t result in me ending up flat on my face, I wouldn’t have posted.

Dodge roll, Withdraw, Roll for Initiative… they’ve all ended up in faceplants. Shadowstep seems to be the only consistently successful escape method. Keyword there is “consistently.”

Saiyan.1704:

You realize a successful steal gank burst from a Thief can essentially down a DH with limited cds right? The better Thieves literally wait out our cds outside a skirmish fight to +1 burst and down a DH quite easily.

I’m just pointing out what you said here….

A Thief can successfully engage a Dragonhunter if the following conditions are true…

1. The Thief ganks

2. The Dragonhunter has limited cooldowns

3. The Thief sits there waiting until the Dragonhunter is vulnerable

In other words, the Thief literally becomes a vulture, which is quite accurate, and I’ve been saying that several times recently. Unfortunately, that does not help a Thief to engage a Dragonhunter in a 1v1, nor does it help a Thief who is attempting to decap an empty point escape a full stack of traps that was left behind… even though the Thief does successfully evade the initial activation… but the evade does not carry it far enough away from Dragon’s Maw.

From a Thief’s perspective, the main issue with Dragonhunter traps is that they are duration-based instead of instant. When a Guardian drops a trap, it turns that area into its own personal playground. It is a Thief-free zone that is strictly enforced.

Again, evading a trap is not the issue. The problem is even when you evade, you lose… especially when your evade doesn’t carry you far enough away.

Can we at least give the Thief an immunity to a trap IF it successfully evades the initial activation? It gets frustrating to avoid a stack of traps only to be sucked back into them because your evade/dodge didn’t take you outside of the pull range.

apharma.3741:

To me things like Lotus poison (nearly 50% weakness up time realistically) and panic strikes which are so insanely easy to proc are just as much of a problem as these elixir S, defy pain, mirror of anguish procs. They’re not true enhancements in my eyes either otherwise they would always happen with every hit and not have a cool down.

Indeed, that was my mistake with Lotus Poison. It could be considered an “activation” due to the cooldown, though that is the only thing keeping it from being a true “enhancement,” unlike Panic Strike which requires a health threshold as well.

I’m not saying Panic Strike is a truly acceptable trait. But striking an opponent is much less passive than being struck, which is why it doesn’t draw my ire. The only reason I even run it is because the other choices don’t benefit me (I don’t run traps or enter Stealth much).

The other difference I can see between a Panic Strike or Lotus Poison and a Defy Pain is that the results of the offensive traits can be immediately cleansed and mitigated. When immunities and invulnerabilitiess activate, there is no other recourse than to wait them out. At least Aegis and Blinds can be quickly countered.

If a trait just added Protection boons or added Toughness, that would be fine. It would be harder to break though, but at least it would not completely shut down a burst. And that’s where my personal problem arises… glass cannons have become effective only until the target reaches 25-50% health. After that, there’s nothing that can be done except run away and hide. It doesn’t matter powerful I build, I cannot break through an immunity.

As for the reflect-CC traits, I suppose that I find them to just be absurd. I have no way to know if the target has it traited or on cooldown. And it affects a Thief’s success more so than other professions because Thieves rely on surprise openers to catch a target off guard because they are very fragile. Once an opponent knows a Thief is there, the Thief is at a severe disadvantage in today’s game.

I’d much prefer if anti-CC traits would model Hard to Catch. They can break stuns and give boosts to the player, but there’s no reason that an attacker should ever stun itself for landing a successful attack… especially with no warning. At least projectile reflects have visual aids.

apharma.3741:

What about things like panic strikes then? It’s realistically got close to no player action and is in many cases the icing of the death sentence when a thief jumps you mid fight if for some reason the burst didn’t kill you. Other traits for thief would be weakness when applying poison (lotus poison) with poison being on auto attacks and steal as minors.

Lotus Poison and Dagger Training both fit into the “enhancement” category I mentioned in my previous post. Lotus Poison enhances the Poison condition. Dagger Training enhances Dagger skills. Personally, I do not like weapon-specific traits. I would prefer every trait to be useful for every weapon.

Panic Strike is an “activation” trait, though it isn’t really passive in itself just as Resilience of Shadows is not passive. It requires a player to actually do something such as successfully strike an enemy or enter into Stealth, respectively. Yes, Panic Strike can be quite a problem for the opponents, but it only activates if the Thief earns it by striking its target. And yes, Thieves do look for weakened targets in the middle of fights… because the Thief has literally become a vulture. It can’t hold its own in 1v1 combat, but that’s another story altogether.

Traits like Mirror of Anguish and Defy Pain are truly passive. They are literally 100% effective even when a player is AFK.

Fortunately, perhaps the worst trait I can remember was changed… the old version of the Elementalist’s Diamond Skin. 100% immunity to conditions until enough actual direct damage was done. Dedicated condition builds didn’t have enough power to out-damage the Elementalist’s healing, so conditions would never be effective. I’ve had Elementalists literally stand there /laughing at me while I was giving it everything I had in WvW.

Zenith.7301:

Cry more. Was about time you paid the price other classes pay when they miss a skill, instead of being a spammy mongoloid class who doesn’t care about blocks/blind.

Talk to me when you can’t use anything but auto-attacks and not even swapping weapons can fix it.

But first, talk to Anet about encouraging spam with the change to Lead Attacks.

apharma.3741:

You really need to be more informative when you say “passives”.
What do you call passives?

I would put those “passive” traits into two categories… (using Thief traits as examples)…

1. “Enhancements” enhance something. Stealing is enhanced by Mug, granting healing and outgoing damage. Stealth is enhanced by Resiliance of Shadows, granting 25% reduction of incoming damage. Both Stealing and (most) Stealth require active input from the player.

2. “Activations” are activated under certain conditions with no input from the player. Last Refuge grants Stealth when struck under 25% health. Instant Reflexes allows auto-evasion when struck under 50% health. Hard to Catch automatically breaks a stun and refills endurance when stunned. One thing to notice is that these “activations” usually (if not always) have a cooldown associated with them.

Personally, my problem is specifically with the latter, the “activations.” Not all of them are bad. Many of them are great things that make sense. To specify even further, it is the passive “activations” that boost a player’s defenses to absurd levels that I have no love for. These include traits such as…

Thief: Instant Reflexes
Warrior: Defy Pain
Engineer: Self-Regulating Defenses
Revenant: Soothing Bastion
Guardian: Virtuous Solace

On top of those, the CC-reflect traits are also terrible, and should be changed just as the Nightmare runes were changed. Such traits included…

Mesmer: Mirror of Anguish
Necromancer: Reaper’s Protection
Revenant: Eye for an Eye

If active defenses have to be added or buffed to make up for the loss of passive defenses, that’s fine. Or if the passives are merely changed to reduce damage taken instead of nullifying it (or a specific type) altogether, that’s at least better than it is now.

I don’t know anybody who uses Last Refuge, but at least it doesn’t make a Thief invulnerable to anything. Hard to Catch may save a Thief, but at least it doesn’t reflect the stun back to the attacker… it’s like an Aegis for CC. The game would be better without them and their types, but at least they don’t make the Thief immune to any type of damage.

But that’s just my opinion. I can only speak for myself.

EDIT:
I run glass cannon builds a lot. Sometimes Berserker Thief (DA/CS/T). I’ve learned that it doesn’t matter how hard or fast I hit someone, if they have passives traited, I’m in for a very difficult fight. I don’t mind dying in 2-3 hits, but when I pound on somebody for 5+ seconds straight with my power/crit levels, and passives are the only thing keeping them alive, the game begins to feel pointless. I have to make zero mistakes, and my opponent only has to get lucky once.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think it follows that logic. Just like Bountiful Theft, it doesn’t need to have a successful hit or an attack to land. Unlike Larcenous Strike, where the boon strip is bound to the skill itself, Rending Shade is a trait, not a skill, thus LS needs to connect thus it was made unblockable. Rending Shade functions the same as Bountiful Theft.

Does Bountiful Theft require a successful Steal in order to steal boons? Enhancements when using Steal are still granted to the Thief even if there is no target (Swiftness, Might, Fury, Stealth, etc.), but will Bountiful Theft steal boons when evaded or blocked by non-Aegis skills?

Steal itself isn’t an attack, so it would make sense to bypass Aegis. However, Stealth Attacks are just that… attacks. If a normal Backstab is unsuccessful at penetrating Aegis, I don’t understand why a traited Backstab should preemptively steal Aegis before it successfully strikes the target… if it is actually based on striking the target. If it is not based on a successful strike, the boon-steal may just as well be an unblockable AoE.

Jana.6831:

Why don’t you guys try it?
I haven’t but my buddy did and he said it doesn’t work on aegis.

Probably the best way to go, haha!
Unfortunately, I was having bad luck getting any of the PvP lobby NPCs to use boons the other day.

Ps. Personally, I like the thought of changing Rending Shade to an AoE boon-steal that activates on Reveal, so any skill can take advantage of it. Hmm, perhaps 2 boons per target within a 240-radius?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Why can’t they just allow Thief have the innate ability to see, as a silhouette, anyone who is in stealth?

Sounds good to me!
Another approach would be the following suggested changes I made for Shadow Arts in my Trait Shakeup thread…

Shadowsight:
You can now see and target Stealthed opponents. When you are not in Stealth, you will see the opponent’s “ghostly” form. When you are in Stealth, you will see the opponent as completely visible.
Keep in mind that this trait is competing with Shadow’s Rejuvenation, so it must provide significant value. You will also be able to take full advantage of “Meld with Shadow’s” new Stealth-granting ability.

Meld with Shadows:
In addition to the 1-second extension to Stealth, striking a Stealthed target removes Revealed from you and also applies 3 seconds of Stealth (1 second cooldown). Can be combined with “Hidden Thief” and “Shadowsight” for invisible Thief battles. Yes… invisible Thief battles.
Not only will this trait remove Revealed from you, but striking a Stealthed target will not Reveal you. This does allow dueling Thieves to remain Stealthed for an indefinite period, however, striking a non-Stealthed target will still Reveal you.

Hidden Thief:
In addition to granting Stealth on Steal, if the target is Stealthed, then you will gain an aditional 3 seconds of Stealth. Can be combined with “Shadowsight” to target Stealthed enemies.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The boons are stripped prior to hit, thus it’s not blocked, which is very different from a crit-base boon strip. If you can’t crit, you can’t boon strip, and before you can crit, you have to hit, and in order to hit, your attack should not be blocked. The stealth attack boons strip doesn’t have to jump all those hoops.

You can see the problem with that logic, correct?
Rending Shade is based on Stealth Attacks. If a target has Aegis, how can the Stealth Attack land? If it doesn’t land, why should it steal a boon? Why should the boons be stolen before the attack successfully hits?

In that case, Rending Shade may as well be an AoE that Steals boons from a target within a small radius as opposed to a successful Stealth Attack.

And following in Stealth Attacks’ footsteps, there’s no reason why a would-be critical wouldn’t be able to steal/destroy Aegis before it does damage as well. It needs only a simple If/Then statement.

But in a worst case scenario, criticals could steal/destroy every boon other than Aegis. And if it only destroys boons, then any hit would destroy Aegis by its very nature. All very doable.

Ikihiki.2316:

This change separates good thieves, that can adapt to the situation, from the mindless metabuild copiers.

Except even good Thieves aren’t good enough to win against good players of other professions.

I think a lot of people are missing out on that big picture. Even if the Thief were not touched with the patch, it would still be an inferior fighter against most other professions.

In other words, the Thief needs to be ONLY buffed Not nerfed. Not ignored.

Yes, some builds and weapon sets need more buffs than others. But nerfs are NOT called for. And even IF something deserved a nerf, I would argue it would be passive defenses (Instant Reflexes/Hard to Catch) and the ability to do damage by dodging. But the current Thief needs such abilities just in order to compete.

Adding a cooldown on a Stealth Attack is petty and unneeded. If that’s what separates good Thieves from bad, then the Thief is in an even worse state than I thought.

After some more testing of stowing Backstab, can someone please tell me what practical use it has?

You have to stow IMMEDIATELY after you press the Backstab button. And if you can pull that off, you should have never hit the attack button in the first place. Besides, it adds a half second cooldown by itself. I’m not seeing use in it at all.

Jana.6831:

I could never really make the stow weapon work – too many buttons.

I was trying to stow my Backstab yesterday to test the cooldown. I could NOT get it to stow. I can stow Shadow Shot. I can jump-skip Infiltrator’s Return, I can Heartseeker through Black Powder 4 times or Smoke Screen 7 times… but why can I not stow Backstab??? :-(

Doggie.3184:

Leeching Venoms goes hand in hand with the theme of Lotus Poison, Potent Poison and Dagger Training traits in Deadly Arts since it’s all related to poisoning your weapons. Revealed Training is related to the stealth mechanic, which Shadow Arts is supposed to augment. Swapping these two positions would allow venom support users to decide weather they want to use a stealth build or an evasion build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Hidden Killer from CS is more appropriate to be in SA than Revealed Training.

I actually suggested all three of these changes in my Trait Shakeup thread two months ago.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This patch is obviously about obliterating VA. It’s not about nerfing power builds nor about nerfing Venom Thief, it’s about getting rid of VA so that we can have meaningful tweaks from upcoming patches. The might from venom is horrible anyway so losing it is not a deal breaker especially when I’m not being forced to spec for VA anymore. Also the reduced application is not a nerf only because the venoms are now auto-share which is a big buff to the venom Thief build. Rending Shade is a welcome addition rather than buffing BT because it gives a Thief an option not to take Trick for boon strip.

I have nothing against removing Venomous Aura. However, if that is what the patch was about, they could have left out nerfs like reducing damage on Staff and adding a cooldown to Stealth Attacks. I was also hoping that those meaningful future tweaks would have been included in this patch instead of having to wait several more months.

As for venoms themselves, they only buffed their team-support by making venom share baseline. It was a partial-nerf to roaming Thieves that do not enter team fights. For example, I could hold an opponent off point for 2 seconds with Basilisk Venom, just long enough for me to decap a point. Or for 1 second if I missed with one shot. Now, I have only one chance to hit, and that half a second can be the difference between winning and losing… it has happened before. Do I care much about the change? No, it’s acceptable. The only venom I run is Basilisk because it’s the only elite worth running for a core Thief in PvP. But roaming venom Thieves may suffer more than I do. Not to mention that Might is Might… and very useful no matter the build.

I have nothing against Rending Shade. Though how much use it will get compared to Shadow’s Rejuvenation is yet to be seen. Especially with the added cooldown to Stealth Attacks.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Adding utility to Critical Strikes would have been welcome as well. ~snip~

That will not happen for obvious reasons. How can you strip a boon if your attack is blocked by Aegis? Having the Weakness debuff will make this an unwelcome change. A passive boon strip on stealth attack is the best solution because it grants boon strip even to non-crit builds like condition damage builds.

Or not so obvious reasons. How can you steal boons with Rending Shade if your attack is blocked by Aegis? I suppose since there is a cooldown now, Stealth Attacks could become unblockable.

I don’t understand what the problem is. Every other traitline has utility. Critical Strikes has virtually none. Yes, Weakness already counters Critical Strikes, but that doesn’t mean that critical hits shouldn’t grant utility. In my suggested changes to traitlines, I made Critical Strikes affect all damage, not just critical hits. But as it stands now, those of us who do run Critical Strikes are already lacking utility and also damage when we are weakened. That doesn’t mean that we should just delete the traitline.

Besides, non-crit Thieves should not be running Critical Strikes. They are better off with something like Shadow Arts. But crit-Thieves do have a used for Critical Strikes, though it is extremely lacking.

Again, I’m not anti-Rending Shade. It’s great if people can find use for it. But that doesn’t mean there should not also be the ability to destroy/steal boons inside Critical Strikes. Why? Because even though I run Trickery, I am forced to use Trickster instead of Bountiful Theft just in order to survive against conditions. It’s the only condition-removal that DA/CS/T offers.

Dangus.6572:

position properly? how many tries before 3sec of stealth wears off do you think thief have? I can answer – 1. So you spend all of your initiative for stealth and then you have 1 try.

This is my problem with it. 3 seconds of Stealth allows you only 2 Backstab attempts… and only if they are used immediately after entering and before exiting Stealth. Not to mention that if you use all of your initiative to enter Stealth, and you miss the Backstab, you have no other attack alternative. You can’t even auto-attack.

Sandrox.9524:

Thing is, this is the opposite of what thief was desgined for since weapon skills should have no cooldown.

Agreed. It feels completely foreign to the Thief.

Dahkeus.8243:

You have the question wrong: Before the nerf, why wouldn’t you just spam backstab without thinking? There was absolutely no reason not to since in best scenario it lands and in worst scenario it doesn’t and you try again immediately afterward while also likely removing an aegis or blind.

Now there’s actually a tactical moment of decision not only for the thief, but also for the person being attacked by the thief. The thief has to watch the target more closely and the target now actually has a reason to use a tactical aegis or AoE blind when they expect a stealth attack. It makes the game more complex in a good way.

Not when the Thief is already an inferior fighter to other professions. So what if a Thief could spam Backstab until it hits? It can only do damage one time before the Thief is Revealed. So what if it removed Aegis or Blind? Aegis/Blind performed its function… it protected the target from taking damage. Aegis also gave notice that there was an attack coming from Stealth, allowing the target to evade, run, or AoE itself.

Besides, why couldn’t hitting an Aegis just Reveal the Thief instead of putting a cooldown on Backstab? Now, the Thief can’t even auto-attack following a failed Backstab. The change was simply unneeded and implemented poorly. There are already too many imbalances against the Thief in today’s combat. I don’t understand why Thief players want an even harder time to stay relevant. There are already many ways to self-nerf yourself if you want to feel a sense of greater accomplishment.

TakeCare.3182:

The funny thing to me is that this doesn’t even really effect D/P.

Yes, it basically means more Stealth-Shadow Shot/Backstab combinations.

Extreme.8350:

They should make it “If attack is blocked no recharge”.

That would at least make sense. Or even allow auto-attacks for 1 second between Stealth Attacks.

What exactly is the purpose of requiring LoS on a shadowstep mechanic?

For the actual Shadowstep utility, as often as not, I get the red “marker” when I try to escape from a hotspot. I don’t understand it. I can easily Steal or Infiltrator’s Strike into the exact same position, but I can’t Shadowstep there.

I just played on Legacy, fighting on the Waterfall mound. I was getting a lot of AoE and springing a lot of Guardian traps. I instinctually dodge, and use Withdraw when needed. But then more AoE/traps pop up, so I try to just get out of there. I tap the Shadowstep key, but I keep getting the red marker and messages, not being able to get off the point. Even the little fence on the South side was blocking me from shadowstepping out.

I don’t understand the need for such requirements. I can walk there without jumping.

And another related issue, did they change Shadow Trap’s failed ports? I used to at least get ported toward the intended destination even if I got obstructed. I may end up next to a wall halfway there… or only 5 feet from where I started… but at least I moved toward the destination. After several failed (obstructed) attempts, when Destroy Trap or Shadow Pursuit, I don’t move an inch, but my trap still goes on cooldown.

I do wish they would fix the failed shadowsteps… it really is ridiculous, and seems to be getting worse. If you don’t move with Infiltrator’s Arrow, you shouldn’t lose initiative. Shadow Trap should be a true teleport, but at least move the Thief or allow multiple tries instead of doing nothing and putting the skill on cooldown.

But alas, such terrible issues never seem to be fixed.

Thanks, but I fear I’m still a bit confused.

The wiki says, “Steal boons from enemies you strike with stealth attacks.”

Is a “stealth attack” every attack from stealth?
Or is it specific “stealth attacks” like Backstab?

So the Sigil of Air took a 20% damage reduction in PvP. Does this change the best choice for sigils for Crit-Thieves?

Does anyone have the math for the those four sigils in particular?

Thank you! :-)

I haven’t gotten to update yet (servers rarely work for me).
What attacks does Rending Shade affect?
Any attacks from Stealth? Or only the #1 skills?

Thanks! :-)

Naix.8156:

So what’s build diversity for a thief look like to you then?

I can only speak for myself, but personally, I would like the Thief to become more independent.

As it stands, the Thief is effective only when it is completely alone or when it outnumbers the enemy.

It cannot take an occupied point alone.
It cannot defend a point alone.
It cannot win 1v1.

It lacks vitality.
It lacks AoE.
It lacks boons.
It lacks passive defenses.
It lacks damage mitigation.
It lacks non-Stealth sustainability.

The Thief can hit hard if built for it. But that damage output is negated by the plethora of passive defenses that exist in today’s game. And if the Thief builds for sustain, it lacks the damage needed to down the enemy. Yet its sustain is still not enough to withstand the enemy… especially on point.

So in other words, it’s a lose-lose situation for the Thief.
There’s no way to trade mobility for combat ability.

The Thief basically counts as 0.5 in the team combat numbers.
0.5 beats 0
1.5 beats 1

At least a bunker Elementalist has historically been able to hold a point by itself even if it could not kill anything.
But a Thief does not have the build potential to hold or attack by itself. It is always dependent on teammates, yet its nature is more suited to be independent. That’s why it performs so much better in WvW than PvP.

Basically, the Thief doesn’t know what it’s supposed to do in PvP. It suffers a severe identity crisis.