Guild Wars 2

After today’s “Balance Patch of Bewilderment,” I’m just going to bump this for consideration once more.

It’s not perfect, but at least it makes more sense than what came out today!
/facepalm

Suggestions to improve these changes are still welcome. To make a strong, yet balanced Thief is the entire purpose of this thread. Anet devs are especially welcome to enter discussions. We… well, I’ll be nice! :-D

Having played a full glass cannon Berserker DA/CS/T Thief, I can tell you that this will not be the case as long as insane passives remain.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If this barely affect your build while increasing the effectiveness of hybrid/condition builds, then it is a balanced patch. There’s no grounds for concern.

The problem is that it did nothing to balance the power Thief relative to the other professions. It was and is inferior in PvP combat. In fact, the Staff build got nerfed. I don’t even have HoT, and I’m still upset about that.

I don’t understand the purpose of this patch for Thieves. They still cannot bunker a point. They still cannot win 1v1. They still cannot survive in team fights.

It nerfed Stealth Thieves. It nerfed Staff Thieves. It even nerfed Venom Thieves by removing Might, reducing range, and reducing applications.

Boon stealing would have been better accomplished with buffing Bountiful Theft or adding boon-theft to Steal as baseline.

Adding utility to Critical Strikes would have been welcome as well. It is virtually a 100% critical-damage/chance increase line. No other traitline is so one-dimensional. Why not have a trait that merely removes one application of a boon on a critical hit? Even if you have to add a cooldown to it. Or add additional damage for every boon that the target has.

There are so many things that could actually improve the Thief fairly. But this patch is a nerf to the Thief as a whole. Again, even when building in the extreme for a given role, the Thief isn’t great at anything. Yet this patch nerfs those builds in favor of giving a few buffs to mix-and-match builds that will still be inferior to dedicated builds.

slamfunction.7462:

So many QOL changes here

The Thief’s QoL just changed… that’s for sure.

/facepalm

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The CD on stealth attack is a good balance tweak against DA/CS/(Tr or DD) builds.

A balance against what?
DA/CS/T is naturally balanced by the plethora of passive defenses in the game.

In PvP, at least, power Thieves don’t need any nerfs.
They’ve already given up sustain for lethality, and not even that is enough to stand a good chance against other professions.

Where’s the Thief’s 8 seconds of immunity to power opponents? Warriors have it.

A Thief can’t even use a long-cooldown-based elite to remain in Stealth and do damaging attacks for 3 seconds while still remaining completely mortal.

Thieves can’t even enter Stealth for merely a second without giving up point-control to the enemy… even to clear a condition or minimally heal… without even attacking. That’s completely disabling an entire traitline while trying to hold/contest a point.

And this patch didn’t even touch the “perma-evade” condi- or “perma-Stealth” trapper Thieves… which is what most complaints are about.

Personally, this barely affects my build. I run Dagger/Pistol DA/CS/T. The ICD on Backstab won’t cause me much trouble, and I got a shared stun with a longer duration on Basilisk Venom (which never stacked anyway).

What angers me is that Anet has absolutely no idea what is happening with the Thief, and that is apparently clear with this patch. Nerfing things that are already ineffective. Leaving things untouched that need changes.

In PvP, the Thief has no identity. It doesn’t have the tools needed to be effective independently, nor does it have what is needed to be effective in a group. Even at its extremes, it is mediocre in every role. It is literally a vulture.

After going through the discussion about the Thief not being able to capture or hold a point while in Stealth (even a 3-second grace period after entering Stealth), completely forfeiting an entire traitline and useful attacks… after considering that a Thief’s nature (lacking health, AoE, boons, non-evasive defenses, and damage output in PvP) makes it a relatively poor choice to fight on point… and considering that the Thief has the reputation as the roaming lone wolf (roamer, yes… lone wolf, absolutely not)… I just want to throw out the following thought…

What if the Thief were able to capture a point as quickly as it can decap a point?

As of now, a Thief focuses on merely denying points (scoring) to the enemy by going to empty points (locations) and decapping them. That is what mobility allows the Thief to do. However, in order to decap a point, the enemy must leave it open. If there is no empty point, the Thief player would have been more useful by choosing a different profession altogether.

And if the enemy does leave a point empty, then a Thief may have a chance to decap. However, because of the lack of on-point fighting capability, it is usually wisest for the Thief to leave the point neutral than to capture it, simply because it takes so long, and the Thief will be forced to retreat at the first sign of the enemy.

So indeed, what if the Thief did have the choice to quickly capture a point and actually give points (score) to its team? It would at least give a reason for teams to choose a Thief over other professions. Especially for the opening rush to points… send them to Mid to try to get the quick capture, or to Home so they can quickly reinforce Mid or decap Far.

Personally, I much prefer to just increase the fighting abilities of the Thief like should be done. However, this whole concept is considering the Thief’s current state, which is quite sad. Cannot take a point, cannot hold a point, cannot team fight, cannot fight 1v1… the current Thief is merely a dependent vulture.

Kicast.1459:

Straegen.2938:

Thief still under performs in one of its main purposes which is duels and 1v1 fights. In sPvP it is still mostly relegated to +1 and mobility.

Do good players even sweat a power thief in a straight up fight any more?

Main purpose of thief is mobility and +1
It must never be a beast in 1v1 with its current superiority in mobility.
I can understand lots of thieves would appreciate…but this would create an imbalanced situation.

I disagree. First of all, there is already an imbalanced situation.

Secondly, the Thief is just another profession. It plays PvP just as every other profession. Regardless of gametype, PvP is combat oriented. Mobility in this game gives little advantage in actual combat. It only allows faster engagement and easier disengagement. Not actual combat potential. It doesn’t matter if a fly is sitting still or flying 100mph, it will never be able to defeat a fly swatter.

Thirdly, the Thief can build for no mobility and no stealth. Yet it still cannot viably build to win a 1v1 in a PvP match by giving those up.

Fourthly, +1 can be done by anyone. While the Thief may be able to get there a but faster, it still cannot hit any harder than it can in 1v1. Other professions can still hit harder than the Thief once there.

Additionally, the Thief doesn’t even have range against anyone. And even when it uses what range it has, it can do very little with its Shortbow, and has no escapability with Pistols.

Basically, the Thief is a melee fighter without much damage output (relatively), little health, and little access to defensive boons. Without HoT, there is no access to blocks, no extra dodge, and little viability.

A Thief may be able to use mobility to get to an empty point to decap it… IF the opponent leaves it empty. The Thief cannot take and hold a point, being forced to retreat at first sight of of enemy. And yes, while you can force an opponent to rotate back to that decapped point, possibly creating a 4v5 elsewhere in your favor, there was already a 4v5 in their favor while you were decapping, so your team may have been wiped already. But even if you went to even the fight, a Thief isn’t very effective in a 5v5… or even a 4v5.

Is mobility a good thing to have? Yes. Does mobility make up for lack of combat ability? No.

The Thief has mobility. Other professions have passive defenses. Other professions have more blocks. Other professions have more boons. Other professions have more health. Other professions have more armor. Other professions have longer ranged attacks. Other professions have more damage output. Other professions have lots of cleansing and healing. Other professions have strong AoE skills, while the Thief is forced to focus on a single target.

Does the Thief need everything that other professions have. No. But at the moment, it is extremely imbalanced against the Thief… much more than mobility balances out. Mobility helps, but not nearly enough. But compare the Thief’s mobility to other professions… it’s not that great of a difference… especially when you compare combat abilities.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The bottom line is, the Thief profession is all about hybrid, adapting to the situation they are in. They are not about power focus or condition damage focus, they are both that can be tweak whenever towards one type of damage to another. If the Thief needs extra physical damage boost, they pop the assassin signet; if they need extra condition damage boost, they pop spider venom. Both situations need to be effective because, in my opinion, Thief is a balance tipper or tie breaker and they need to stay that way.

Since swapping weapons doesn’t affect a Thief as much as it does other professions, I wish the Thief could have the ability to use a separate amulet (PvP) for each weapon set just like sigils, or something along those lines, giving the Thief even more ability to adapt.

I’ve heard a lot about the Thief having a great burst. But what good is even the most powerful burst if a target’s passive defenses completely and unavoidably counters a large percentage of it?

Defenses such as Mirror of Anguish, Reaper’s Protection, Tempest Defense, Eye for an Eye, Soothing Bastion, Defy Pain, Self-Regulating Defenses, or even the Thief’s own Instant Reflexes… all are completely passive. They are literally outside of the player’s control. They are 100% effective even for a player who is AFK. And all of them can either negate a burst after a certain amount of damage or even stop a burst before it can begin. There is no way to avoid them, nor is there even a way to detect if a target has them traited.

There are many other passive defenses, of course, though not necessarily as devastating to the Thief. Personally, I would suggest that all passive defenses (especially CC defenses) require the target to already be in combat before they can be activated, allowing opening CC skills to be effective on an unwary target.

However, here are two specific suggestions for the Thief to give it a better chance to land its full burst potential, so it won’t be as easily negated. Note that they are separate suggestions to be assessed each on its own, not together. The potential to stack them is there if they are implemented as trait choices, though I’m not sure if traits are the best way to implement them.

Assassination
The Thief has the reputation of being a sneaky assassin. This will allow it better ability to live up to that reputation. Assassination requires the Thief to be out of combat.

While out of combat, the Thief will gain the “Assassin” effect. The “Assassin” effect will be lost whenever the Thief is struck, and will not return until the Thief leaves combat.

When the Thief strikes an opponent while the “Assassin” effect is present, the effect is transferred to the target in the form of the “Marked” effect.

The “Marked” effect will remain present until the Thief is struck or leaves combat, or if this opponent leaves combat.

While the “Marked” effect is present, this opponent’s passive defenses will not take effect.

This will allow a Thief to open up combat with a full burst without fear of self-CCing itself. It will also force the opponent to defend itself actively, giving the Thief the potential to down the opponent with an initial burst if it can do so before the opponent can react with active defenses. Yet it will also give the opponent the opportunity to regain its passive defenses if it or its allies can strike the Thief.

Sabotage
The Thief can get so close to its opponent, it can steal items from it. Why wouldn’t a Thief be able to use that opportunity to sabotage the opponent? Sabotaging is Steal-based, bringing the Thief the potential to sabotage the opponent at vital times during combat.

Whenever a Thief successfully uses Steal on an opponent, that opponent gains the “Sabotaged” effect. This effect lasts for 5 seconds. While the “Sabotaged” effect is present, this opponent’s passive defenses will not activate. However, any passive defenses that are already active will remain active.

This will allow the Thief to avoid self-CCing itself by opening combat with Steal. It will also be able to keep the opponent from passively entering into immune/invulnerable states if it uses Steal at the correct moments, allowing the Thief to apply its full burst potential throughout combat.

Personally, I see passive defenses as one of the Thief’s main problems in today’s game… if not the most debilitating. They force every battle into one of attrition against the clock, and time is the worst enemy of the Thief.

If one of the previous suggestions were implemented, I believe it would allow a well-played Thief to take back the advantages of setting up proper ambushes and to force opponents to play actively based on skill instead of passively based on traits.

Again, this is all about giving the ability to counter PASSIVE defenses, not to counter ACTIVE defenses.

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

I thought the title said “Thief’s ability to cry” rofl

Oh, I do believe that is unquestionably OP ;-)

Darknicrofia.2604:

Daredevils have a 3rd dodge bar, which already nullifies traps.

Two issues here…

1. Daredevil =/= Thief
Core Thieves have no more dodges than anyone else. Yet core Thieves are as squishy or even squishier than anyone else including Daredevils.

2. Dodges only nullify instant traps
Dragonhunter traps take up the space of entire points and last for a duration after the trap is sprung. The only course a Thief has is to give up a point for the duration of the traps.

I’m looking for an answer to this question…

Is the Thief’s ability to carry a match directly related to the opposing team’s ability to rotate properly? And if so, who has the advantage?

Thank you :-)

Jugglemonkey.8741:

While the thief is all about evasion, passively evading 20% of the time is not a good thing. It needs to stay active for the good of the class imo.

Indeed. I’m against passive anything.
While I’m not saying it should happen, if any such powerful buffs were given, I would prefer to just remove the damage on dodge trait, and give many more dodges.

Think of Ninja Gaiden. That’s more like it! :-D

Shaogin.2679:

Me thinks you be playing Thief wrong….

I know how to play Thief. I may not be great, but I know how to play it. I do everything you listed. You just repeated what I said.

What you listed is like saying “up-level” players have a specific roles in WvW.

What I’m saying is that the Thief is a dependent profession. In the current game, the only thing it can do independently is run to an empty point. And again, in order for the Thief to even do that, the enemy has to choose to leave it open.

If the enemy chooses to bunker a point, the Thief is compelled to support teamfights. Supporting a 1v1 or 2v2 is preferable, but a 3v3 or 4v4 is not where a Thief shines. And on a map like Legacy, the enemy doesn’t even have to fully commit a player to watch over their Home point to keep a Thief from decapping.

As far as group Stealth in PvP… that is extremely situational, and can do as much harm as good. Mesmers and Engineers can do the same while providing more.

Whatever the case, Thieves are extremely dependent on teammates in nearly everything they do. For being roamers, they aren’t designed to do anything alone when an enemy is around. The purpose of this thread was just to give the Thief a little independence in the ability to hold a point… other than to be an annoyance.

Shaogin.2679:

Not every class fills every role

I think that’s the issue. The Thief has no true role in conquest. It can decap ONLY IF the enemy leaves a point open. Outside of that, the Thief is limited to engaging only enemies that are already matched man for man… and only when not in the midst of AoE spamfest.

Thieves are too weak to bunker without Stealth.
Glass “assassin” Thieves are too easy to counter with auto-passive defenses and random AoE.

Basically, Thieves don’t have the builds to effectively…

- Hold a point
- Assault a defended point
- 1v1 in a fair fight
- Out-range the enemy
- Enter large teamfights in melee
- Support teammates with boons/healing/condition removal

Thieves have many more options in WvW. But in PvP, they are quite limited. Seemingly, Thieves were designed to be mobile, agile glass-assassins. But there are simply too many auto-immunes\invulnerabilitiess\CC-counters in the game today for glass builds to be very effective. Those passive defenses inherently turn every fight into one of attrition. And time is the worst enemy of the Thief.

Zelulose.8695:

Stealth should not be able to cap a point but it should be able to contest a point

Hey, it’s better than nothing. At least I won’t have to run away at the first sign of the enemy :-)

Ross Biddle.2367:

Stealth is only at a “disadvantage” where point contesting is concerned. Stealth is, mechanically, an advantage in every other way.

Contesting/capturing is the most important part of conquest. Not allowing the Thief to use an entire trait line while on-point (without giving up control) is similar to disabling the Elementalist’s Earth/Water lines while on-point. Or to a lesser extent, disabling a Warrior’s Endure/Defy Pain while on-point.

snaplemouton.1294:

My problem with DH:
Their traps cover the entire cap point.

You need to stay in the cap point to prevent them from decapping, but at the same time you can’t stand in it because you’ll die from traps.

This. The bane of a glass-Thief. I can dodge the traps initially, but I can’t skirt the traps and remain on point… nor can I shadowstep through a barrier without severe repercussions.

Where’s my rogue-like abilities to disable traps? I need some thieves tools and a natural 20, please!

Shaogin.2679:

One of the main counter-arguments has always been “Well hey at least they can’t contest the point while in stealth”.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Also, nobody likes thieves XD

Haha, I think that’s a valid statement, and the source of the problem. I think a more accurate sentiment would be…

“Well, hey, at least Thieves can’t contest the point while in or out of stealth” ;-P

The problem for Thieves in particular is that their main line of sustain is based on being in Stealth. Perhaps it is a badly balanced design, but it also removes the ability to bunker a point without such access.

Again, even 3-seconds of capture/contest potential after entering Stealth for a Thief would give it a fighting chance. Even if not traited with Shadow Arts, it would allow non-Stealth-reliant builds (like mine) to at least get a Backstab in without giving up any control progress. Of course it won’t help me one bit when a Dragonhunter places one of his traps that fills up the entire point. So sad… #ThiefTears

I recently made a thread about this in the Thief forum…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/PvP-Stealth-Capture

Personally, as weak as the Thief is on-point and with all of the large AoE/traps out there, I don’t see why a Thief (and only a Thief) could not have a 3-second grace period after entering Stealth while still able to capture/contest a point.

It would allow Stealth attacks and limited sustain while not allowing perma-Stealth hiding.

Perma-Stealth is another argument altogether, though it likely wouldn’t be as bad as people think with all of the anti-Stealth/Thief skills in the current game.

This is all considering PvP, of course, not WvW.

zinkz.7045:

Kageseigi.2150:

There seems to be a fundamental unfairness to the Thief in the game mode of Conquest.

LOL, complaining about a class being weak at conquest that was so strong in conquest that for the first 3 years of this game thief was perma-meta and the strongest solo carry in the game.

Whoa, let’s at least keep things in context. Please read the next sentence of mine. I never said anything about the Thief being weak… that’s another issue. What I said is that a Thief cannot hold or contest a point effectively compared to other professions.

While GW2 PvP is a combat game, implying the necessity to kill the enemy, this particular thread is focused on the goal of Conquest which is to score points by maintaining control of nodes and denying control to the enemy.

How does one do that? By remaining on-point. Decapping can only be done when the enemy leaves a point or is killed. Currently, the Thief is not viewed as a reliable 1v1 fighter, leaving only the option to wait for the enemy to leave a point free.

If the enemy does not leave a point open, the Thief’s ability to decap is negated, forcing the Thief to enter into teamfights to be useful. At that point, being a Thief can become a liability instead of an asset.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that the Thief lacks the ability to hold/contest a point. That is the truth. If a Thief were able to hold/contest a point, it would become much more useful, and much less dependent on what the enemy allows the Thief to do. It would also allow the Thief more independence from the actions/ability of the rest of its team.

For instance, if you want to improve your chances at the Mid fight at the beginning of a match, you could feel more confident of sending all 4 non-Thieves to Mid while the Thief takes Home. As it is now, if the enemy sends even one person to take your Home at the beginning, the Thief is at a terrible disadvantage, and usually forced to rotate instead of holding it’s ground until help arrives.

Again, this thread has nothing to do about improving the Thief’s ability to kill the enemy… but only to improve the Thief’s ability to deny the enemy points by surviving in a confined area.

rennlc.7346:

We have too much access to stealth now for stealth capping/contesting to be fair.

Perhaps, though remember that builds are about balance. In order to gain sustain from Stealth, that requires taking Shadow Arts over an offensive line. Stealth utilities/runes take away from offensive capabilities. So unless you build to be a bunker, which should allow you to hold a point by nature, you’re Stealth access is still going to be limited to normal use.

However, if the ability to capture/contest a point in perma-Stealth is too much, I would suggest a 3 second grace period for Thieves. So a Thief may remain in Stealth for 3 seconds before losing the ability to control/contest. This would remove the ability for Stealth-stacking. But it would allow a Thief to jump in and out of Stealth for strategic attacks and sustain (if traited) while not allowing the enemy to (de)cap as long as the Thief remains present.

I don’t understand the purpose of this thread really. It looks like so many questions are being asked, but a universal answer is what is truly desired. But there is no single answer that fits all of the questions.

Do you want to kill a Thief? Well, in that case, there is somewhat of a universal answer… you can’t force it. If a Thief doesn’t want to die, there is not much you can do to counter that. But that is against ANY type of Thief who knows what he’s doing.

Running away and/or hiding is the nature of the Thief. Knowing when to do so is the real trick to playing the Thief.

Is a Thief trying to stay hidden? That’s why Reveal skills and Stealth Disruptor Traps exist. That’s really the bottom line.

It’s WvW, after all. How do you kill a Ranger on a wall? How do you kill a Necro in a downed duel? How do you kill a Mesmer who has set a portal on the other side of the map? How do you kill anything underwater? How do you prevent a Guardian from taking a sentry point? How do you stomp an Elementalist who gets downed close to a gate portal?

If you want to kill a perma-Stealth Thief, that is one thing. You can’t force it if he doesn’t want to die. But that is for ANY type of Thief. However, that is a different issue from a perma-Stealth Thief staying invisible and remaining lethal. It’s not so lethal if the opponent knows what he’s doing and is not AFK or weakened from a prior fight.

Again, two different issues. Each question has its own independent answers. And they are rather minor issues compared to PvP balance issues.

Taobella.6597:

in the beginning thief could stealth cap in WvW guess what happend…. 1 thief could stop a zerg of 40 from ever achieving a cap lol.

That is the way of the Thief, hehe… to play spoiler! :-D

However, in today’s game, Thieves can’t even hide in Stealth because of Reveal skills. And PvP capture zones are almost always small when compared with WvW zones.

A Guardian trap or a Necro mark fills up an entire point, so there’s not really any way a Thief can skirt danger while still contesting. Not to mention all of the large AoE skills that everyone has these days.

Random concept, so just throwing it out there.

Venoms become like Elementalist attunements or Engineer kits.
Instead of applying a venom for a limited number of attacks, selecting a venom would affect (some or all of) that weapon’s normal skills until deselected, giving slight enhancements depending on the selected venom.

The effects would have to be very small/short due to being applied with each hit (or with cooldowns), but they could gain intensity based on the amount of initiative the skill uses.

For example…

Ice Drake: 1 second of Chill applied for every 3 initiative spent on an attack that hits.

Auto-attack = No effect
Heartseeker = 1 second Chill
Shadow Shot = 1 second Chill
Headshot = 1 second Chill
Black Powder = 2 seconds Chill

Basilisk: 1 second stun when an attack hits that costs at least 5 initiative (5 second cooldown).

Numbers would need to be tweaked and traits would need to be changed, but again, just a concept :-P

Requesting a simple check to see if 6 initiative was spent immediately before the “No valid path to target” message was displayed. If true, the 6 initiative should be refunded immediately.

Thank you! And please? :-)

Edit: Or just check to see if the path is available before the skill activates. If it does activate, and the arrow shoots, then change it from a shadowstep into a true teleport.

Interesting. In the current PvP game, does the Thief even have a Stealth build that would be so difficult to pin down and kill? At least compared to other professions’ non-Stealth builds?

Even a Ghost Trapper in WvW would be extremely vulnerable if it had to stay in a confined area.

Not to mention that there now exist several Revealing skills that completely remove Stealth altogether.

I guess I’m trying to figure out why a Thief (and only a Thief) would be overpowered if it could contest/capture a point while in Stealth… even if built for it.

Resilience of Shadows only grants 25% damage mitigation compared to Protection’s 33%.

Shadow Rejuvenation’s base healing is less than the Warrior’s Signet of Healing.

Shadow’s Embrace removes only one condition every 3 seconds, and the Thief has no access to Resistance.

The Thief has virtually no access to Stability or Protection or Aegis.

So while Stealth does add sustainability, I don’t see how it would make the Thief overpowered at bunkering a point when compared to an Elementalist or even a Warrior.

The Thief has no Stability. It is still vulnerable to CC, especially if it gives up stun-breaker utilities for Stealth access.

The worst issue that I can see is that it will make the Thief more annoying because it can stay hidden while on point, causing more complaints of Stealth. But that is the nature of the Thief.

alchemyst.2165:

It’s pointless to engage a DH on point unless you can literally activate all of their traps at once and burst them down right after. Otherwise, you can try to bait them off point and decap, but it’s pretty much pointless.

Sad.
Even then, how can you fight while Test of Faith is sitting there?
It feels like it lasts an eternity, and everything is recharging while it’s up.

Shadowsteps still trigger the damage, correct? So a D/P Thief is left with nothing but Headshots or getting locked into Shortbow for an excessive amount of time. Is that accurate?

I don’t have HoT, so I haven’t played as a DH myself.

So how is a Thief supposed to engage a DH on point? Even if it’s not 1v1?

Test of Faith is the trap that intimidates me the most, but adding Dragon’s Maw to the mix seems to make even my evade/dodge escape attempts pointless. Sometimes, they work, sometimes, they don’t… so I end up blowing a dodge and two escape utilities before I can get clear. Quite annoying… and deadly.

There seems to be a fundamental unfairness to the Thief in the game mode of Conquest. While a Thief can move from point to point quickly, it cannot effectively hold or even contest a point against most professions. Compare the Thief’s on-point capabilities to the following which still allow the ability to contest/capture points.

Guardians can lay traps that nearly occupy the whole point.

Rangers can lay traps that occupy much of a point as well as activate a signet that makes them immune to direct damage while still maintaining their fighting ability.

Necromancers can lay marks that nearly occupy the whole point as well as double their health when in need.

Warriors can go immune to direct damage twice while still maintaining their fighting capability.

Engineers can place turrets that can continuously sustain them and also help defend an entire point.

Elementalists… yeah, not even going there.

But what can Thieves do? Evade. Daredevils have a little damage output from dodging. But that’s about it.
So a Thief has no special advantage on-point. In fact, they only have disadvantages, two in particular…

1. They are squishy, and require avoiding damage and control effects in order to survive as opposed to being able to absorb them and recover.

2. Stealth provides the most methods of sustain and recovery, yet it cannot be used if a point must be held.

So the Thief is forced to fight around a point if it is to survive, or it must give up a point in order to recover.

Here is the question to consider…

Would the Thief’s on-point capabilities overshadow even those of the professions listed above if ONLY the Thief gained the ability to contest/capture a point while in Stealth?

It would not boost the Thief’s damage output in any way. It would only allow sustain. It would improve deception potential, of course, but that is the way it should be.

Opinions?

Supreme.3164:

To allow bunker-busters to exist, some professions should not be forced into a bunker role by design, but rather it should be a choice. Give eles a dps build that can actually kill something without being oneshotted by everything in a couple of secs..and you can have your bunker buster

That sounds good to me. The Thief is on the other extreme. It’s forced into being a DPS build because there’s no viable bunker build that can hold a point. WvW stealth builds don’t help in PvP, and that’s where most of the Thief’s defenses are based.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

3. This one is more opinion-based, but player versus player is a place where you should be fighting other players. While I do think bunkers deserve a place in PvP, I do not think the outcome of the match should heavily rely on players who don’t actually kill other players. The match should be based on who could fight the best, not who can stay on a captured point and survive the longest.

This is why I say that if there are going to be bunkers, there should be bunker-busters.

In my personal opinion, a fully glass-cannon Thief should be able to make short work of a bunker in a 1v1 situation IF played well. Such a build should be super-high risk, but also super-high reward. It is not.

All of the passive defenses and passive counters in the current game turn every fight into one of attrition. Glass-cannons cannot sustain fights.

So a single bunker… or even a non-glass build that sits on a point effectively neutralizes a Thief’s one advantage… mobility. And a full glass-cannon Thief has very little business being in a large Team fight, even if it is a +1.

There are just too many passive invulnerability procs at 50% and 25% health. Too many passive CC-reflects as well. And way too many AoE’s that can kill glass builds way too easily. Unfortunately, these seem to make almost everyone bunkerish.

xella.7268:

Prince Vingador.8067:

This treads are funny, first.. the same way you are stuck with him , hes also stuck with you, and if you are playing thief and are perma down ,how do you think he feels when u are in his team?
Any way im sure its easy to blame the guy that whent afk then to think WHY HE WENT AFK , every one thinks hes a pro and yet they are stuck in divisions.
I actually stop playing pvp almost a month because pvp atm is a mess :

Bad macth making
Class staking
Players with 0 clue and awereness
Pugs vs premades
( and then this is why we get afkers)

Now im not talking about top players , because those will reach legend in the first week due to good play and beeing in a party, now a casual player that is decent will reach legend in 3-4 weeks EVEN WITH ALL THOSE PROBLEMS I WROTE ABOVE, so if u r still stuck , im sorry to tell you but , its time to look at your game play and stop blaming everything else.

I wasn’t playing thief. I was playing ele. The thief wasn’t permadowned, either. He was pertty good.

My goodness, the arrogance and immaturity on this board know no limits!

See? Don’t you love it when people automatically assume that the Thief is permanently downed? It can’t possibly be anyone else’s fault.

Thieves ask for buffs so they can actually fight and win, but no, that would be unfair to everyone else. So Thieves are left weak in 1v1 situations, and are even worse in team fights. But let’s blame the Thief for not making it a 4v4 at Mid where he’ll melt.

You’d think that 24,000 games would teach someone something constructive. But I guess that won’t teach humility, empathy, or compassion. All it proves is that someone is wasting their life in front of a computer screen.

Instead of looking at it from the perspective of the majority (4 compared to 1), who are actually trying to win even until the last moment no matter the score, they instead only care for their own desires to get into the next match sooner. They don’t care that their teammates are trying to accomplish something… even if they themselves have nothing to left accomplish.

So yes, if you have nothing left to gain from PvP, don’t play PvP.
If you are the best that you can be, with no room for improvement, and you still are not good enough, then don’t play PvP… or get your own 5-man premades with the agreement that you can afk when the game is considered unwinnable.

If you play 24,000 matches and you are still that selfish, I would suggest you need more help than with a silly game. I don’t even want to imagine what your real life personality is.

A quitter is a quitter.
A loser is a loser.
Winners never quit.
Champions never give up.

Player experience is one thing.
Honor is completely independent of that.

Some people will only understand things from their own perspective, yet will claim that others do not understand at all. That is complete hypocrisy.

The only thing to understand is that there is selfishness and selflessness. It is your choice to which you will be. Unfortunately, the selfish ones are usually the last to see they are being selfish. And the selfless ones are the ones who get wronged.

But I am done casting pearls before the swine. Be as you will.

There are two problems with the Shortbow.

1. The Shortbow shares an initiative pool with your actual combat weapon. This makes it difficult to jump into a melee fight, burst with all your ability (use all of your initiative), then swap to your Shortbow to escape.

Why is that a problem? Because today’s defenses are too strong and too passive for a Thief to break through without fully committing to a maximum burst, and even that is a gamble. So the Thief must choose between possible victory and ability of escape.

2. The Shortbow is a utility weapon, not a lethal weapon. However, the Thief still gets locked into using a Shortbow for 10 seconds when it swaps to it for utility purposes. Doing so drastically reduces the Thief’s combat effectiveness… especially for a power Thief.

Basically, it is like a less effective self-Moa spell. You become pretty useless in combat, but at least you can run around and evade better than the bird.

Possible solutions the these problems? Simple…

1. Make the Shortbow an “F3” profession skill with a 1-second cooldown. This will give the Thief access to a true second combat weapon.

2. Since the Thief has a single initiative pool for both weapon sets, remove the cooldown from swapping weapons, or give it a 1 second cooldown like Engineer kits. This will allow the Thief to use a utility weapon only when utility is needed, but will be free to use a combat weapon whenever it needs to do so.

3. Give each weapon set a separate initiative pool so swapping weapons will give an actual benefit instead of punishing the Thief by only locking it into that set for 10 seconds with an already depleted initiative pool.

In other words, the Shortbow doesn’t necessarily need to be improved. But the way the Thief accesses and uses the Shortbow does need to be improved.

Then I shall ask if anyone knows the answer to this question…

Can Anet go back and see the level of latency of a player at the time a report is filed?

Thank you. I guess that’s why I’m posting this… so the investigation can be completed quickly :-)

I’m not exactly sure where this needs to go, but I just want to put it out there for my own defense…

I got reported for cheating for supposedly teleporting multiple times when my Thief was downed. The person reported and blocked me before I could reply. I don’t care much about the attitude, but I don’t want to get in trouble just because I started to get lag spikes at the end of the match, so I wanted to clear the issue up before it even gets started.

I’m including a screenshot of my 5k ping as soon as they messaged me. Thank you!

Ps. I’m not wanting to lag anymore than the enemy wants me to. It gets me killed more often than not. But it hits me randomly.

2 more utility slots?
Or 2 more unique weapon skills? :-)

I finally got my Plasma sword skin, and I’m ready to go classic Jedi style… single saber! But 2 more sword skills would be useful, haha!

The problem with S/D is the combination of Conquest and the Thief’s nature.

The S/D style is built for sustain.
Conquest does not allow for 1v1 sustained fights.
The Thief is too squishy for team fights no matter the build.

It has the same problem as trapper builds.
Stealth can help you survive longer, but you cannot hold a point while in Stealth, nor can you kill quickly enough.

Time is the worst enemy of the Thief.
If you cannot kill quickly, bad things happen…
1. Your opponent will heal
2. Your opponent’s powerful attacks will recharge
3. Your opponent’s strong defenses will recharge
4. Conditions will kill you
5. But worst of all, your opponent will get reinforced

StickerHappy.8052:

Just wanna ask you guys what are your ideas to bring thief traps into line with DH

Hmm, there’s something to think about. Unless you’re a condi/stealth-Thief in WvW, traps are pretty pathetic. I would say that for a start, Thief traps could be made to be large, circular areas like Dragonhunters and Rangers have.

roamzero.9486:

a trap that does something completely different like remove/steal boons.

Now, there’s an idea! Create a “trap” that affects an area over time. Perhaps, once triggered, all boons applied to the affected targets will be automatically stolen and applied to the Thief for the duration of the trap. Say 5 seconds or so.

Or a trap that makes all Thief attacks unblockable against the affected targets for the duration of the trap. Or all hits will be automatic criticals.

Perhaps a “defensive” trap that makes the Thief immune to all CC and automatically clears all conditions for the duration.

Maybe a trap that applies constant weakness to targets that stay inside of the affected area for a decent duration.

If we want to get crazy(er), what about a trap that creates a “Stealth field.” It lasts for… say 5 seconds, and as long as the Thief stays inside the field, it cannot be Revealed… even by attacking. But if a Thief leaves the field, it will lose Stealth… somewhat similar to Shadow Refuge. At least such a trap would make enemies think twice about engaging a Thief on point! :-D

First of all, welcome to the merry band of misfits and miscreants! :-D

Let me preface this by saying that I do not claim to be a great Thief, I’ve never played as a Daredevil, nor do I know what build or settings you have. So here are some suggestions I have to offer…

1. Settings
Very important! Do the following…

A. Make sure you do NOT use “Action Camera.” It will make the Hearsteeker tip I give you later impossible to do.

B. Disable “Autotargeting”

C. Disable “Snap Ground Target to Current Target”

D. Enable “Lock Ground Target at Maximum Skill Range”

E. Make sure “Auto-Attack” is off of repeat

F. After you play around a while, enable/disable any other settings that set/change your target to your own liking.

2. Efficient movement
Between matches, practice moving around the Heart of the Mists (or anywhere in PvW/WvW). Try to get places the quickest that you can. Learn what skills to use to do so. And most of this stuff, you can learn on your own with no outside interference. Here are some specifics…

A. Never walk unless you have no initiative, have no movement enhancement, or you deliberately wish to take your time (or save just a few initiative before battle). I used to HATE taking the Shortbow, so I would always have either the Signet of Shadows or Traveler’s Runes.

B. Use shadowstepping (mechanic, not utility) to its full advantage. Shortbow is king if this. Learn the locations and shortcuts where you can shadowstep to. For example, when you opened at Home on Temple, you can shadowstep to the top of the wood platform, completely bypassing the stairs. In fact, you can do that on the other side of the map also, right by Far. If you ever get caught at Mid, you can use shadowstep to the top of the bridge to the left on the map… even if you are downed underneath it. Make them chase you all the way up the stairs just to stomp you. You will also find MANY annoying uses of shadowstepping on Khylo… like up to the roof of the clock tower from the Mid point.

C. Learn to time your Infiltrator’s Arrow. You should get to the point where you can release a second one as soon as you teleport from the first. Just make sure to not do a second BEFORE you teleport. Not only will it help you get to places faster, but it will help you survive fights when you must escape.

D. If you don’t or can’t switch away from your main-hand Dagger, use Heartseeker to get places faster. It may not have the ability to shadowstep up cliffs or across gaps, but its straight-line moving speed is nearly equal to Infiltrator’s Arrow based on initiative. Just make sure to deselect any targets you may have, and point the camera where you’re going, not at any downward angle.

3. Stealth
Don’t do it in combat unless you NEED to, and there are very few reasons you need to…

A. Make the opponent lose targeting. It can be very effective and very annoying. But make sure it’s worth it.

B. To cleanse conditions with Shadow’s Embrace.

C. To finish off a target who is VERY low on health. This will combine a Heartseeker and the Backstab. If a Heartseeker alone will do it, don’t burn your initiative on Black Powder.

D. To stomp a downed enemy. Stealthing can save you against Necromancers and others with foul downed-skills. It can also help hide you safe from surrounding enemies while you stomp.

E. To set up an escape. If the enemy can’t see you, it’s much easier for you to get away.

4. Stealthing efficiently
The basic of the basics of being a Dagger/Pistol Thief. If you are going to use the Black Powder + Heartseeker combo, the vast majority of times, you will want to stack Stealth. It is a much more efficient use of your initiative. It also makes Stealth worth having, because it lasts for much longer, and also allows you to refill more initiative while invisible. Again, you NEED to learn this… the sooner, the better…

A. Again, make sure you have “Action Camera” and “Autotargeting” disabled

B. Deselect any target you may have (probably best to bind a key to this). You must have NO target whatsoever for this to work.

C. Point your camera looking straight down on your Thief. This causes your Heartseekers to be cut very short.

D. Hold a strafe button down (“a” or “d” key)

E. Activate Black Powder

F. While strafing, immediately use a Heartseeker

G. Give a very slight pause (it takes practice to get the timing right), then rotate your character/camera about 100 degees or so, so you will be aimed at the side of your smoke field

H. Heartseeker again. If done properly, you will leap through the smoke field again. If your leap went in the same direction as the first, then your pause was not long enough.

I. Repeat the pause, rotation, and leap again. With a full 15 initiative, you can leap through Black Powder up to 4 times. That gives you 12 seconds of Stealth (starting from the first leap). That means if you let Stealth run out on its own, or if you wait until the very last moment to attack, you’ll have about 9 initiative refilled, and you will be able to cover a much larger distance while invisible.

J. When first learning the above combo, practice getting 2 leaps in. Then add a 3rd. Then add a 4th. The 4th leap can be quite tricky… especially in combat.

5. Combat skills
Shadow Shot and Auto-attacks are your best friends. Shadow Shot blinds your target as well as keeps you on top of them. It has good damage as well. The auto-attack chain will poison your target, and if you have Deadly Arts, it will also weaken them. Heartseekers are for finishing low-health targets and tracking pesky enemies that are difficult to follow or catch… especially when you lose them in the middle of a team fight. Headshots and Steal (when traited) are vital for saving a downed ally from a stomp… or for interrupting a revive attempt against an enemy.

6. Smart Death
If you believe you are going to be downed, try to get in the most advantageous position you can…

A. If you are near allies, run toward them. If you are by a neutral point or an enemy point (with no allies around), run to it. If you see a place you can shadowstep to while downed, try to get into range of it.

B. When you are downed, you need to know what will be the best thing to do for your team. If you are near a point (with no allies around), teleport onto it. This forces your opponent to stay on point and kill you quickly. If not, they can let you bleed. If you’re already on a point that is neutral or you control, then teleport to the other side of the point when they try to stomp you.

C. If you are near a point when you are downed, but you can’t reach it, or you’re in the middle of no where without much chance of rescue/recovery, don’t just sit there and do nothing. Don’t even try to heal. Instead, attack enemies… or even attack the air if there’s nobody in range. Your goal is to die as quickly as possible so you can get back into the action.

D. There are situations when you can help your team by simply delaying death, forcing an enemy to deal with you in the middle of nowhere instead of fighting somewhere else. Likewise, sometimes, you can actually teleport further away from a point in an attempt to draw the enemy off… giving an opening to your teammates to decap the point.

7. Commit to your actions, and build reflexes based upon them…

A. You don’t always make the best decision. Making the best decision is not the ultimate goal. Turning whatever decision you make into a better one is what you want to strive for. As a Thief, time is of the essence. Don’t second guess yourself. If you make a mistake, take a mental note for the next time the same choice comes up. Don’t go back and try to correct it. If you start moving one direction, commit to it.

B. Reflexes, reflexes, reflexes. Everything must go faster as a Thief. You aren’t built for a war of attrition. Get in, do what you can do, get out. What’s the best way to learn this? To die… a lot. Basically, to push yourself beyond your limits as a Thief, then learn where those limits actually exist. How? Well, it may not be the wisest way to do it, but you could run a full glass build. Berserker with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery. You will die quickly, and you will die a lot. But you will also learn what fights you can enter and how long you can stay before you need to get out. After you do, you can go back to Marauder and Dardevil, and you will be a MUCH better Thief. And the only reason I suggest that is because I’ve learned that by being glass, I was personally forced to learn how to survive better.

Bonus:
Check out this thread if you haven’t already. Many more tips are in there…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/I-need-some-Thief-PvP-tips/

Ramoth.9064:

Mid wiped as a 3v4 (thanks thief)

It’s not a good thing to depend on a Thief to even a fight. They are taught to not do so. That’s why it’s called “+1”

The best you can hope for is that the Thief can last long enough and contribute enough until you reinforce Mid, but even that is a stretch. And even then, decapping Far is the safest thing for the Thief to do. Not necessarily the most productive, but the safest and most reliable.

The problem with Shortbow is that it is a utility “tool” that is treated as a “weapon” by taking up a weapon slot and using initiative. It is basically an Engineer kit without the benefits.

That is why I have a few different suggestions that could be done to benefit the Thief’s reliance on Shortbow…

1. Make Shortbow an “F3” kit. This will allow every Thief to run with it, still using initiative and such, but will be free to have a second combat weapon set. You would no longer be able to apply sigils to the Shortbow, but you would no longer be locked into it for 10 seconds either.

2. Since initiative is a unique system to the Thief, and because both weapon sets share the same initiative pool, allow the Thief to swap weapons at will with no/low cooldown (perhaps 1 second).

3. For the same reasons as above, keep the weapon swap cooldown at 10 seconds, but make swapping weapons refill the initiative pool significantly or completely.

4. Give each weapon set its own separate initiative pool, allowing one to refill while not in use.

Personally, I believe that any one of those options would dramatically expand the Thief’s combat capabilities… each in its own way.

Funnily enough, I was expecting as much. Thank you.

In your estimation, what would you say the most effective/viable core Thief build(s) would be in sPvP, and what roles would they play?

DeceiverX.8361:

Are these players of equal skill, and to that extent, what are we talking about relative to the majority of other players? Pro-league players? Diamond? Amber? Is this straight duels or 1v1 within the scope of a normal sPvP game? There’s a huge spectrum of what can be considered effective or ineffective based on a ton of different factors.

Within the scope of a normal sPvP.
I guess I’m looking for more of a general sense of profession capability instead of skill, so assume both players are of equal skill at a high level.

It doesn’t have to be too specific. Something like the old…

Guardian counters Thief
Thief counters Mesmer
Etc.

Personally, I currently play D/P-SB Marauder DA/CS/T.

I know Daredevil may allow counters to professions and builds that the core thief cannot. But I’m curious to know if a core power Thief can counter anything with the recent balance patch.

Warriors seem to be much more difficult to deal with. And I even have trouble in 2v1’s against some Elementalists. They simply will not die! :-P

Kadsik.9281:

IMO, if most other professions build themselves with a decent amount of defense, they will not only be able to soak the dmg a thief puts out, but still have enough dmg to burst a thief down especially if they use conditions.

That sounds about right to me :-P

I have several questions about what a Thief should do and when as well as what it requires the rest of its team to do in order to be successful.

First, does a Thief need its 4 other players to be able to hold their own in a 4v4 or 3v3 without assistance? Not necessarily win the fights, but last long enough to allow the Thief to do what it needs to do before it gets there to +1.

Secondly, which is more important? If the far point is completely open, but there is a 4v4 going on at mid, which should a Thief prioritize? Decapping far or +1ing the mid fight? What if it is a 3v3? Or what if there are heavy bunkers on mid that will take a while to down?

If a 4v4 is happening at mid, and the other team has a Thief, and both home and far are open (you control home, and your opponent controls far), where should you go?

If you are decapping far, but your team is losing players in a 4v4 at mid, what should you do? Stay and cap far completely? Head to mid to try and even the numbers? Or attempt to complete a map objective (creature on forest) while you wait for your team to regroup?

If you are +1ing a 3v3 or 4v4 against bunkers, what is the best strategy? And how can a Thief effectively +1 in a 3v3 or 4v4 without getting caught in all the AoE? I’m a power-crit Thief, but my Shortbow seems to be very ineffective… especially against bunkers.

Thank you! :-D

I know things change with balance patches, and I also know that a Thief who 1v1’s in PvP is being inefficient with its time. However, I’m curious to know what the general sense is of the current game in the following regard…

What professions/builds are a Core Power-Thief supposed to be able to stand a decent shot at beating/stalemating in a 1v1? And what professions/builds are considered unkillable in a 1v1?

I have my own opinions based on my experiences, but I’m curious to know what the community thinks.

DeceiverX.8361:

Same deal with mesmer ports, though.

True, however, the one thing about the Mesmer portal is that it does provide a method of escape if the teleport places you in a terrible position.

And going off-topic, that reminds me… it doesn’t seem right that Mist/Vapor Forms can pass through gate portals. Talk about immortality. But alas.

Just curious if this would make Shadow Trap too overpowered or not…

Other than fixing the pathfinding issues, the problem I have with Shadow Trap is that it is a completely blind teleport. So, I would offer one the following suggestions to add to the Shadow Pursuit portion…

Option 1: Grant 1 second of Stability and Resistance

Option 2: Grant 1 second of Auto-Evade

Personally, I prefer the first option. I’m not looking to become invulnerable. I just want enough time to recognize if I teleported into a trap or AoE so I can get out of there.

Vornollo.5182:

Picking up Revealed Training in Deadly Arts is also an option to increase your Backstab damage even more

Interesting. Does Revealed Training affect Backstab? Or only the attacks after a Backstab? I guess it would affect a pre-cast-Revealed-Backstab in either case.

Thanks for the info! :-)

What would it take for Critical Strikes to become competitive again?
More utility? The ability to negate or mitigate defenses?
Perhaps just increasing the DPS with a Quickness trait similar to Flanking Strikes?

And yes, the more I get condi-bombed, the more I wish they would grey-out the health bar for potential health loss from conditions.

Dungeon Master? Oh, there’s no question about it!
Bring back Mr. Norn himself… the one, the only, Matt Mercer… and his awesome hair! :-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-p9lWIhcLQ

Gwaihir.1745:

They overwrite. Guards have a light field on hammer AA rendering the weapon useless as it nullifys fire fields.

Really? Is this new or only in WvW?
In PvP, my smoke fields didn’t apply stealth when there was already another field under them.
The wiki says only the first field affects combos.