Just some background for you. The rifle wasn’t originally a tool used to harvest rice. Nor was it thanks to the Okinawans for first incorporating it into martial arts.
No, but the rifle was designed to press firmly into your shoulder. Just as the kama (as a weapon) is meant to be used with PROPER form in combat. Holding the kama in a very loose and isolated reverse grip as GW2 characters currently do is akin to holding a rifle with the stock 3 inches above your shoulder. It may look generally close, but it is not proper. There is no benefit to it, and there are many disadvantages.
Holding kamas with an upside grip with the way a Thief uses it, and you’d be attacking with the blunt side of the blade. So again, it only make sense to hold it with a reverse grip..
I just went through Thief Dagger(/Dagger) animations in slow motion with both normal daggers (Chaos Dagger skin) and kamas to confirm. With a disclaimer that certain animations like Death Blossom are an absolute pain to track the actual weapons (so may be inaccurate), here are the results of what part of the kama actually strikes the target…
Blade = tip or sharp edge
Top = top of blade (blunt)
Back = opposite side of handle from blade
Bottom = bottom of handle (pommel strike)
With the current reverse grip
Backstab: Top
Double Strike: 1 Blade, 1 Back
Wild Strike: Back
Lotus Strike: Top
Heartseeker: Bottom
Twisted Fang: 2 Top
Death Blossom Main Hand: 3 Blade
Death Blossom Off Hand: 1 Blade, 3 Top
Dancing Dagger: Back/Top/Bottom (could hit with anything except the Blade)
Cloak and Dagger: Back
With a would-be normal grip
Backstab: Bottom (possibly Blade)
Double Strike: 1 Blade, 1 Back
Wild Strike: Bottom
Lotus Strike: Bottom
Heartseeker: Bottom (possibly Blade)
Twisted Fang: 2 Blade
Death Blossom Main Hand: 2 Top, 1 Blade
Death Blossom Off Hand: 3 Blade, 1 Top
Dancing Dagger: Blade
Cloak and Dagger: Blade
According to my eyes, at least, changing the kama to use a normal grip would actually benefit the Thief Dagger(/Dagger) animations, especially the off-hand animations. The only animation that seems to benefit from the current reverse grip is main-hand Death Blossom… which isn’t really visible in real-time combat anyway.
Anyone can dispute it, but they can also do the same thing I did to make their own judgment.
To be perfectly honest, I always thought the reverse grip was silly for all of the daggers. It’s useful for close-in work against an unarmed opponent or another knifefighter if you know what you’re doing, but in GW2-style combat where you’re often fighting someone with a larger weapon, you generally want the longer reach of the conventional grip.
Completely agreed. I can understand the “ninja-esque” vibe of the reverse grip for the Thief, but the normal grip is much more useful in combat… especially for double-edged blades.
There’s no right or wrong way to use kamas in the real world. In game, kamas are dagger skins, and all daggers are held with a reverse grip. Flipping the kamas would make no sense due to how daggers are used by characters.
Let’s substitute the “kama” there with another weapon.
“There’s no right or wrong way to use rifles in the real world.”
Sounds kind of silly, don’t you think? If you wish to be effective and safe, you must hold the weapon the proper way.
The kama is not a dagger. The kama’s current reverse grip doesn’t even work well with existing dagger animations. Go try it out with a Thief. It’s like a thug holding a pistol sideways just to look cool. This is worse.
The dagger is fine. The sai (Usoku’s Needle) is ok. A shortsword may be tolerable. But the way the reverse grip looks (as is) on the kama is very unsettling. It’s like a tennis player holding his racket upside down.
The kama needs to either be flipped to be held in a normal grip, which would work just as well (at least with Thief animations), or have its angle changed to be a proper reverse grip… which it is NOT currently. It’s like holding a rifle with the stock 3 inches above your shoulder. It is both impractical and looks glaringly wrong.
Please reverse the way that the new Dragon Kama is held.
It looks plain silly to hold the kama upside down. While I’ve only tested it with the Thief so far, even with the upside-down dagger animations, the kama doesn’t look right in its current state. It would look just as good if not better right-side up during those animations. And it would look immensely better when simply holding the kama without attacking… which is most of the time.
If anyone else agrees, please say so. Thank you! :-)
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Of course you didn’t say it, but you said you always end up with D/P as the other sets are lacking.
Want me to duel you, me on D/P, you on any other thief set?
Get where I’m coming from?
Yes, I understand your argument. I’m not arguing against that. Every skill that D/P has is very useful. It has damage, CC, utility, and Stealth all built in to itself. The other sets don’t. That is why the other sets are lacking. We agree on that, correct?
That’s why I use D/P in leagues where wins matter. Why would I go with an underpowered set? If I want fun, I’ll play unranked or hot join. But in ranked, even though I’m in lower divisions, why would I handicap my team by using a weapon set that is lacking? I’m already handicapping them enough by playing as Thief, but at least I can get around quickly with the Shortbow, and do decent damage with D/P while being able to survive.
I’m not arguing that D/P takes skill to play decently. But it does perform the best compared to other weapon sets when equal skill is involved. So I choose the best weapon because I’ll do the best with it… especially at my skill level.
HoT powercreep (if you want to call it a “creep”) is real. Even before HoT, the D/P Thief wasn’t able to fight on point well. After HoT, it’s even worse. So again, even though D/P may be the superior and most complete weapon set, I would still argue that it is not faceroll-caliber… at least not in sPvP.
Pre-HoT, I even used to “bunker” points with S/D in sPvP. I would 1v2 for extended time periods. It would usually take a 3rd opponent to kill me or force me off point. As soon as HoT hit, that ability disappeared.
Powercreep may not be a good thing, but I don’t see why handicapping myself is a good thing either. That’s why I play D/P these days. That’s why I glue the Shortbow to my second set. I’ve never made it a secret that I despise it, but use it for one skill only… the most important skill in the game that a Thief possesses.
Not sure if you’ve seen it but I already said: “I want all weaponskills on my 1”
……………………….
And your idea is for “PvE-players turned PvP players” as well.
I fear I don’t understand those statements.
Do you want all weapon skills on your 1? Or is that what others have said, and that’s how they become powerful?
I’m not for making D/P Thieves all powerful… or unkillable like Elementalists. What I do want is mobility on weapons other than the Shortbow. If D/P gets that mobility, that’s fine. If D/D gets it instead, great… I’ll play with it instead.
Unfortunately, the D/P + Shortbow combination is complete. It offers almost everything. It offers more than any other x/x + Shortbow combination. What I really want is an x/x + x/x combination that is complete including mobility. And that is currently unachievable because the Shortbow is the ONLY weapon set that offers the mobility needed. The reason is because without mobility, there is no point in having a Thief in sPvP.
The reason I see that as reasonable is for two reasons. First, mobility is required to be viable. Secondly, many other skills are shared between sets…
Backstab: D/D and D/P
Heartseeker: D/D and D/P
Tactical Strike: S/D and S/P
Infiltrator’s Strike: S/D and S/P
Sneak Attack: P/P and P/D
Body Shot: P/P and P/D
Dancing Dagger: D/D and S/D and P/D
Cloak and Dagger: D/D and S/D and P/D
Headshot: P/P and D/P and S/P
Black Powder: P/P and D/P and S/P
As important as mobility is to the Thief, you would think that there would be at least one skill that is shared between sets that provides Out of Combat and Vertical mobility. Mobility is the most important thing to a Thief in sPvP, even more so than damage.
It doesn’t have to be on x/P. Add it to x/D. Add it to S/x. Just please add it to a combat set. Keeping it on the Shortbow is fine. I just don’t want to be required to take the Shortbow to gain mobility.
As for the PvE statement, I’m not sure what you’re saying. I began as a PvE player. Started playing WvW somewhere around level 30, I believe. Spent most of my time in it. I didn’t start sPvP until I was well past 80, and only did so in order to improve my fighting skills for WvW… because finding a 1v1 in it to learn how to actually fight was a nightmare… at least on my server. I found sPvP to be much faster and more exciting than WvW, not to mention much more dependable on my computer… WvW still becomes unplayable when there’s a large group close by. And I don’t even need to mention the Desert Borderlands fiasco that emptied WvW of its players.
So yes, I supposed I’m suggesting it for a PvE turned PvP player. And honestly, I’m turning more and more back into an open-world PvE player recently because PvP and WvW are feeling rather pointless these days. Oddly enough, jumping puzzles are quite entertaining… and I’ve conquered my anxiety of the Not So Secret puzzle. I still don’t like it, but I don’t dread it like before… stupid diving achievement! :-(
Actually, here is quite a radical alternate proposal…
Switch the functionalities of Infiltrator’s Arrow and Black Powder….
Pistol #5: Infiltrator’s Shot
Fire a projectile to a targeted position. Shadowstep to that position. No Smoke Field.
Shortbow #5: Blinding Bomb
Fire a projectile to a targeted position. The projectile explodes, creating a Smoke Field, blinding nearby enemies. No shadowstep.
This removes on-demand Stealth from D/P itself, but it gives the ability to the Shortbow.
It removes the OoC and Vertical mobility from the Shortbow, but gives it to D/P, S/P, and P/P.
This gives every primary weapon set the ability to gain Stealth with the Shortbow as the second weapon.
But it also gives mobility to 3 of the 8 weapon sets instead of only one.
So if you like Stealth, Shortbow is your ideal choice. If you prefer mobility, you can go with an x/P set as your secondary.
Again, not perfect, but it is an alternative to the original proposal.
It brings D/P down a notch without the ability to Stealth itself.
It also makes the Shortbow much more effective at team support.
But talking about changing some playstyles! Wow!
The difference between this proposal and the original…
The original proposal takes absolutely nothing away from any set whatsoever.
This proposal completely changes half of the playsets by removing something from them even though they gain something in return.
That’s why I prefer the original, because it either does not change a weapon set or it only enhances it. And every weapon set other than the Shortbow will benefit from it either directly or indirectly, while also not removing anything from the Shortbow itself.
What if CnD had a nominal gap closer added? Something around 300 units worth. Would that be a more positive change? Port in 300u, then stab animation for stealth. That would help power D/D do its thing and shouldn’t send P/D off to space. I suppose if you wanted to you could use it like Flashing Blade and burn 12ini to move 600u when chased, but that kind of inefficiency wouldn’t be too troublesome. This idea is starting to sound like something already mentioned…
The main reason I don’t play D/D anymore is because of the lack of mobility to ensure CnD. So I combo it with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet. When they are on cooldown, it makes it a lot more difficult to connect. Add all of the ways that the enemy can deny the Stealth even if it hits, and that just makes it frustrating. That’s not even mentioning the recent Backstab cooldown.
Personally, I would love such a gap closer on D/D, but I don’t play it much anymore, so it’s not really for me to argue. That’s not to say I don’t want to play it, but I’m not much into condi, and it doesn’t offer much to a power Thief in its current state, sadly.
But yes, one of the last D/D threads I remember had a gap closer suggested for CnD. I believe the opposition was based on it breaking D/D’s identity or style… making it feel too much like D/P or S/x.
@ Kageseigi:
D/P is the faceroll set of thief, you said it yourself “I’m playing other sets but I always end up with D/P.”You have everything any thief can dream of on that set and want to make it even stronger.
Come on, really?
Actually, I never said it was a faceroll weapon set… at least, not that I’m aware. I have claimed that it is the superior Thief weapon set, and I don’t know many who will argue against that.
If it were a faceroll set, then a D/P Thief would be able to fight and win on point with it. Sadly, that’s not the case. No set can do so easily, especially not faceroll. I could argue that condi-D/D or perhaps even the Staff are more faceroll-qualified than D/P.
I go back to D/P because it does have the best fighting potential for a power Thief who does not have access to Staff. And I go back to the Shortbow, begrudgingly, because it is the ONLY weapon set that gives Out of Combat and Vertical mobility. In the game of Conquest, mobility is the only advantage the Thief has.
Unfortunately, that Out of Combat/Vertical mobility is what the D/P (and EVERY other) weapon set lacks. That is why the Shortbow is required even for D/P Thieves, and it’s a shame.
Like I said, please give me a way to ditch the Shortbow without losing what makes a Thief viable in the first place. Add it x/D… add it to F3… I don’t care. Just please let me take a second combat weapon set. I’d play S/D all day long. That would make me happy.
Unfortunately, I don’t know what would make you happy, though. Just from appearance, you seem to only want to nerf D/P. I’m not sure of your ideal changes. I know you play power D/D in WvW. I can understand the frustration. Power D/D is even worse off in sPvP. D/P is worse off also. That is why I want a real second weapon set… a second playstyle, but I cannot take one as long as the Shortbow is required for mobility.
I think you misunderstand me, however. I’m not a D/P fanboy. It’s merely the best weapon set the core Thief currently has in sPvP. If there were a better option, I would take it. I run different weapons in WvW, but there’s no real replacement for it in sPvP for an “assassin” type player. S/x is too slow, and D/D lacks mobility. I don’t even run D/P properly… I use DA/CS/T… I rarely go into Stealth, and I fight on point. As the alternative proposal at the top of this post suggests, I’d be perfectly fine with no Stealth on the set… I just need mobility… but I’m not looking to ruin anyone else’s playstyle, so that’s why the original proposal was made.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
ETA: Or at least would drop this after your first “lets nerf D/P – I’m proposing this gigantic buff for
thiefD/P” thread which was the exactly same thing.I still mean it: Play an other set than D/P for a bit.
That’s what I’m hoping for… to be able to play other sets and remain competitive. That’s why I do not understand the disappointment. I’m looking for a way to make D/D and every other non-D/P/non-Shortbow set more useful. I’m not for nerfing D/D. I’m all for buffing it. If you put the mobility on Dancing Dagger instead of Black Powder, that would be great to me, though I doubt you’d be happy.
I do play other sets occasionally. Everything but Staff because I’m non-HoT. But every time I do, I end up back to D/P in leagues when I’m trying to win. So I’m stuck with D/P for combat and Shortbow for mobility.
As for the other thread, I said that Shadow Shot was a mistake. Black Powder is MUCH more appropriate for this change for several reasons. And the original proposal was a nerf to Shadow Shot because it severely reduced its ability to hit a target, thus losing the blind and damage most of the time. That was before the second iteration which took selected targets into account. With Black Powder, none of that is an issue. It will also be unattached from Shadow Shot, allowing the latter skill to be balanced as needed.
Giving that mobility to x/p would be terrible design and just spread the gap between /d and /p even more.
Unfortunately, it seems that x/D builds are lacking a lot compared to D/P. But what would close the gap, I don’t know. It seems x/D players want to keep x/D characteristics unique from x/P. All I know is if x/D got this mobility change instead of x/P, I would be playing x/D all day long. I’d probably even go back to my original setup… D/D and S/D. I don’t use much Stealth anyway.
Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.
Black Powder would not be a Shadow Shot clone. It would be used just as Infiltrator’s Arrow is used… to reposition and escape. It will be the teleport out, although it could be used as a teleport in, even though I have no idea why you would use it that way unless you were planning to switch to a melee set afterwards.
So a P/P Thief would engage from range as normal. If an enemy got too close, the Thief would Black Powder away from the enemy while still being able to engage with P/P instead of having to switch to Shortbow to escape. He would simply escape/reposition with P/P now.
As I mentioned before, I would also propose that Body Shot be given a Blind due to Black Powder losing the ability to Blind while maintaining distance. Both skills would gain much more use.
Notice that a lot of the disagreements for this change comes from it being attached to x/P, which is certainly understandable as was the very first thing I stated in the original post. Black Powder is simply the most fitting skill that I can see for this change to take place.
However, the underlying issue is the monopoly of Out of Combat and Vertical mobility of the Shortbow. Eliminating that monopoly is the crux of the matter.
So please, let’s work on solving that problem.
This argument to enhance x/P builds is simply my proposed solution to that problem. It may not be the best solution, but it would work, even if it does cause other problems or create imbalances in weapon sets.
Buffing x/D builds is a great thing! Buffing non-D/P builds is a great thing! Buffing the Shortbow is a great thing! Even nerfing certain things may be good for balance…
But let’s at least spread OoC/Vertical mobility around. There’s no reason why only one weapon set has a stranglehold on it.
So please, if this Black Powder solution is not acceptable, let us propose new solutions to the problem. That is the goal… that is all that matters… to solve the problem.
P.S. Just as a personal opinion, I would much prefer to have a targeted shadowstep on Black Powder than having a Smoke Field. Talk about a nerf! Am I proposing that? No. But that is how I feel. I’m not attempting to destroy any builds or playstyles. Just making a minimal change to open up more choices for secondary weapon sets.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
he was referring to the AA and number 3 since they are the only non Ground target Aoe skills
Perhaps so, though AA is still the only skill that won’t activate if I’m not facing the target. Disabling Shot will turn me around, activate, then turn back to where I’m going. It makes AA feel very awkward in comparison while moving. I wish AA would also momentarily turn around and activate just as Disabling Shot does.
The reason is super obvious.
There’s not much reason they couldn’t make it happen in sPvP. The opportunities to “abuse” the skill are much fewer there.
Besides, Elementalists already have a defensive advantage by fighting near gates (teleports), so when they go down, they can just mist form into safety. The Thief having an offensive counter (or even defensive ability) in the same manner doesn’t seem too far fetched.
It is, no matter how you turn it – it is to make anything else but D/P obsolete.
I think that is basically the case already. Not so much that other sets are obsolete, but that they simply cannot compete with D/P for combat or Shortbow for mobility. The main difference between how it is now and how it would be if the change were implemented is other weapon sets would actually be used and actually be viable as well.
Think of it this way…
D/P is like a bomb. It does a lot of damage. But in order to deliver the bomb, you need to get it to the target. The Shortbow is like an airplane that will do that.
Other weapon sets are like bombs also, but they simply are not as powerful or as dependable as D/P. Yet they also need a delivery system, so they also have to take the Shortbow.
If you are required to take Shortbow anyway, and you can only take one bomb, it makes sense to take the most powerful bomb you can. That is D/P.
What this change does is transform x/P sets from bombs into a missiles. It gives them their own method of delivery. So instead of having to take both a bomb and an airplane, now, you can to take two missiles… or strap a bomb onto a missile. It’s not about making any one bomb deadlier on its own, it’s about giving the Thief a larger payload capacity… two bombs instead of one.
ETA: We could delete SS though and add a X/P port – that would be fair.
I’m not against further changes, whatever may be needed. But this concept is based on one simple change to one skill, leading to a revolution in new Thief diversity. Other changes to other skills are completely open for discussion.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
I believe the main purpose for the proposal is being lost.
This is not about enhancing D/P or x/P or any other such thing.
The purpose is to make the Shortbow unneeded for its Out of Combat and Vertical mobility.
The result would be the Thief having an actual choice of two weapon sets instead of always requiring a specific one.
Currently, the Thief build choice is: X + Shortbow
The goal is to make it: X + X
To give mobility to Black Powder would quadruple the available options. For example, out of the 8 weapon sets…
Currently: 7 × 1
Proposed: 7 × 4
D/P definitely doesn’t need that extra mobility on x/P
S/P doesn’t need it to function well
P/P can get its mobility through other means if it finds itself still lacking.
I believes that sums up this argument.
D/P and S/P do not need the extra In Combat mobility. That’s because they already have them. P/P may be able to gain it by other means, though it stands the most to gain in itself.
What is the main gain that D/P (specifically) would achieve from this change? When taken in isolation as a set, D/P gains virtually only the ability to do what it can already do without switching to Shortbow. But that is also true for S/P and P/P. When viewed as a whole, however, D/P gains the added combat potential of D/D, S/D, P/D, P/P, S/P, or Staff as a second set while remaining 100% as viable.
In short, it slightly boosts the staying power of x/P sets while radically increasing the combat potential of every Thief not taking the Shortbow… while remaining 100% as viable as before.
Again, this isn’t about adding ability to a specific build itself. It’s about consolidating a build’s ability into a single set in order to improve diversity…
New D/P = Old D/P + Shortbow
New S/P = Old S/P + Shortbow
New P/P = Old P/P + Shortbow
It’s simply subtracting the Shortbow while retaining mobility. That is the entire purpose. It would be achieved just as well by making the Shortbow an F3 kit, which is perfectly fine with me.
The Shortbow’s monopoly on Out of Combat and Vertical mobility is like having the ability to Steal locked into a traitline with absolutely no other useful traits. Every Thief who wants to win will be required to take it, but they are losing out on an entire traitline just for that one ability. It would be better to just make Steal baseline or to give access to it through several other traitlines.
Let’s imagine if this change were implemented, and let’s think of some scenarios.
*D/P*
You are about to engage an enemy. What do you do with your new Black Powder ability? Use it to blind and stay in melee range? Why would you do that when you have a much cheaper and harder hitting skill in Shadow Shot? Black Powder’s change would only offer the ability to disengage/kite without being locked into Shortbow for 10 seconds.
S/P
You are about to engage an enemy. What does the new Black Powder offer you? You already have a lower costing Infiltrator’s Strike for engagement. You have Infiltrator’s Return for disengagement for very cheap. Infiltrator’s Strike already immobilizes a target, so Black Powder isn’t really needed to maintain melee. Perhaps you could Black Powder -> pre-cast Pistol Whip in the middle of a fight, but you’d have to aim very well, and you’d be more accurate pre-casting with Steal… not to mention that it would use most of your initiative.
P/P
This is where I can see Black Powder getting much more use. Engaging an enemy at range. If he gets too close, Black Powder yourself away and continue to fire. However, initiative must be used effectively, because you’ll be having to balance the power of Unload with the escapability of Black Powder. However, you would no longer need the Shortbow to get around, making this the perfect ranged Power set to compliment a melee set.
As for out of combat scenarios, that’s what the change is all about. They would be able to move around just as they would if they had the Shortbow. Only now, they can have an actual combat set at the ready… both on the move and also when they need to change tactics mid-fight.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Seriously guys: Go D/D in your preferred game mode for a bit, then switch back to D/P and see how good you have it. No need to ask for more buffs – I mean that, sorry.
I’d love to go D/D… or S/D like I used to. The problem is that Shortbow is glued into the second slot. This isn’t about making D/P better, it’s about making the Shortbow unneeded so we can use a secondary weapon set of our choice while still remaining viable.
The problem is that no matter what primary weapon set you choose, the Shortbow is a virtual requisite in the secondary slot… especially for sPvP.
As it stands now, a Thief must choose between viability and fun. If the Shortbow could be replaced without losing mobility, then the Thief could remain viable while still allowing fun.
So again, it’s not really a pro-D/P proposal, it’s more of an anti-Shortbow proposal. And even then, it’s not so much anti-Shortbow as it is anti-monopoly over mobility.
Even just thinking of the possible outcomes if this change went through, I could totally see potential for P/P with S/x builds… perhaps even rivaling D/P. Being able to use P/P for mobility and high damage while using S/D to enter melee with stacks of Might. Sadly, P/P is currently being held back by lack of mobility. And even for those who continue to play D/P, I can see P/P becoming the main replacement for the Shortbow, which would make the average Thief so much more lethal… and a much better match against Dragonhunters.
Actually, I wouldn’t mind the second part of Shadowstep (Shadow Return) to be made a true teleport also. The first portion is fine as a shadowstep, but the second part can get you killed if you move into the wrong place… it happened to me today :-(
I don’t necessarily mind the negating of the CC, but the reflects from traits are absolutely disgusting :-(
I wish the auto-attack had the same rate of fire that the Ranger’s Shortbow has.
would be awesome to get. The result might be shortbow gets deleted…
Ah, the desired goal certainly isn’t to delete Shortbow. However, I could see this change as opening up the Shortbow itself to receive improvements because it would no longer hold exclusive control over mobility as it does now. Perhaps giving it more combat potential.
Of course, that’s a different issue altogether, and really only necessary if this change becomes reality. But here’s to that hope! :-)
This is an argument to improve Thief versatility by enhancing x/P builds. I understand that it includes Dagger/Pistol, so it may encounter natural resistance. However, please keep an open mind and read through the reasoning before drawing your conclusion.
Thank you! :-)
1. The reason the Thief is viable in Conquest: Mobility
That’s really what the Thief is about in sPvP. To get to empty points quickly and decap them. Secondarily, to quickly get to fair fights and make them unfair. What allows this? “Out of Combat” (OoC) mobility and Vertical mobility. Unfortunately, as a weapon set, the Shortbow holds a monopoly over these, especially Vertical mobility.
2. The way to create diversity in Thief builds: Make the Shortbow redundant
While the Shortbow does have its uses, the all-but-exclusive reason it is chosen as a second weapon set is because of one skill: Infiltrator’s Arrow. What makes this even worse is that the Shortbow is a two-handed weapon, requiring the Thief to commit to its full 5 skills when it needs only one of them. If it were a one-handed weapon, it would allow much more versatility in Thief builds. So that is what this argument proposes: to give the mobility of the Shortbow to a one-handed weapon. In this way, the Shortbow retains its full capability, but is no longer a requirement for merely one skill.
3. The proposed skill and change to give mobility: Black Powder
Basically, make Black Powder work like Infiltrator’s Arrow. It becomes a ground-targeted skill. Instead of creating a Smoke Field at the player’s position and then firing a blinding projectile, it will first fire a projectile that will explode into a Smoke Field. The Thief will then shadowstep to the projectile’s impact point, ending up in the center of the Smoke Field as normal.
4. Why Black Powder is the perfect candidate
Black Powder and Infiltrator’s Arrow share many similarities…
- They are both projectiles
- They are both blinding skills
- They both have a range of 900
- They both have a radius of 120
- They both cost 6 initiative
- They are both #5 skills
- Neither of them are used for damage
5. Builds that would directly benefit from this change: D/P, S/P, P/P
All of these builds would gain inherent OoC and Vertical mobility. Their “In Combat” (IC) mobility would also be improved…
- D/P already has IC engagement mobility with Shadow Shot, but would gain disengagement mobilty.
- S/P already has both IC engagement and disengagement mobility with Infiltrator’s Strike and Infiltrator’s Return, but with the recent nerf on jump-Infiltrator’s Strike, it needs an increase in OoC mobility
- P/P stands the most to gain out of this change. While it has little use for IC engagement mobility, it desperately needs disengagement mobility. With this change, it will be able to reposition or run when being overrun.
6. How other builds would indirectly benefit from this change
This is actually the main reason for the change. By giving x/P builds the same mobility that Shortbow has, the Shortbow becomes redundant for mobility reasons. It also means that 4 of 8 Thief weapon sets will have mobility built into them. That’s half of the Thief’s weapon sets! If you need mobility, you can select any x/P or the Shortbow for one set, then take your Staff or x/D set of your choice. This means two ACTUAL combat weapon sets while maintaining mobility (viability)!
7. Why this would benefit other weapon sets more than D/P
Realistically, D/P is already THE set for the Thief to use in sPvP. However, the set itself lacks OoC and Vertical mobility, and without it, D/P cannot maintain viability. It is therefore required to gain that mobility, and the only weapon set that grants that is the Shortbow. So it is virtually required for a D/P Thief to select the Shortbow as the second weapon set. If the Shortbow was no longer required for mobility, then the D/P Thief would be free to choose any other combat weapon set instead and still remain viable.
Yes, the D/P set itself would be enhanced even more than it is, but that enhancement will not be exclusive to D/P. And the only thing it gains is mobility. However, in the current game, the D/P Thief will already have that mobility because it will also have the Shortbow.
The bottom line is that D/P is THE weapon set for the Thief if (s)he wishes to be viable. Seemingly, nothing is set to change that. However, by giving it what the Shortbow already allows it to do, other weapon sets will find much greater use and viability. And again, S/P and P/P are also getting the same enhancements. In short, the D/P set gains little more than what the D/P + Shortbow combination allows now… but the D/P Thief will gain the combat potential of other weapon sets just as those weapon sets will gain the combat potential of x/P sets.
And again, nothing is forcing D/P for other sets. A x/D Thief could just as well sake S/P or P/P for fun while still gaining the new mobility.
8. What this means for the Thief as a whole
Increased diversity. Increased combat potential by using multiple combat weapon sets while retaining the mobility that makes the Thief viable. All in all, it makes the Thief a stronger fighter by slightly improving its IC mobility, but mainly by giving more adaptability with the use of multiple combat styles due to using multiple combat weapon sets. And it does all of this simply by adding mobility to one skill… no damage increases, no evades, no conditions, no traits, etc.
9. How this affects the Shortbow’s current use
The Shortbow is not touched at all. It plays exactly the same. Players who love the Shortbow can continue to play exactly the same way as they are used to. It only makes the Shortbow a choice instead of a requirement for viability.
10. How this affects Black Powder’s current use
Black Powder can work almost exactly as is does now. It can be ground targeted at the player’s feet, allowing for the Smoke Field to be created at the player’s position as it does now. If shot at range, the player would still end up in the middle of the Smoke Field as it is now, only both the player and the Smoke Field would be at a different location. If the projectile hits a target, the target will still be blinded by the Smoke Field. Whether the projectile should retain its minimal damage is completely debatable.
The only real loss would be Black Powder’s ability to blind a target while maintaining distance. This would mainly affect P/P as it is not a melee set. If that is such an important ability, I would suggest adding a blind to Body Shot as its in need of improvement. But again, P/P would be gaining the ability to reposition or disengage, so the blind may not be nearly as necessary as it is currently.
11. Conclusion
This may not be the perfect solution. But is there a perfect solution? Personally, I see it as a very viable solution to solve many of the Thief’s problems without really breaking anything else… or, at least, a good first step.
Yes, just as with any enhancement to x/P, it will naturally make D/P stronger. However, the improvement to D/P should be rather minimal compared to the improvements to other x/P builds and to the Thief as a whole. And honestly, I don’t believe it would be a bad thing for the Thief to be strengthened in this post-HoT era.
If you do not agree with this proposal, that is completely fine. If you have alternative solutions, please present them. This is all about improving the Thief and making it more viable. However, I would request that any criticism be limited to the constructive variety. It doesn’t further the discussion to just say something would be “broken.” Suggesting alternative improvements would do much more. And that’s the goal… to improve, not keep the status quo.
Thank you! :-D
P.S. I have absolutely nothing against giving mobility to x/D sets. I just see Black Powder being so easily converted, that is why I specify it. For example, I’d be fine with mobility on Dancing Dagger or whatever other way you could do so for x/D. Personally, I haven’t been able to think of such improvements specifically, so I’ll let you guys have at that! :-)
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I kind of like it. It gives that silent assassin vibe. I kind of wish it would apply to every Thief skill :-P
I’d love to be able to combine other headgear with an outfit. Since we can already hide the head, it’s a separate mesh, so it should be easy enough to also give the option of showing our existing headgear with the outfit, so we can combine our sunglasses or fancy crowns with our snazzy outfits.
This. Don’t forget the bunny ears! <3
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Thank you all! I’ll give these a try! :-)
It will become OP in WvW : hide in a corner of an allied tower, when the enemy take that tower,wait for them to leave and you can just go kill the champion.
Just let Stealth Distruptor Traps cancel it out. In fact, Revealed should disallow the effect also.
Just a random proposal for either a trait in Shadow Arts or (preferably) a baseline togglable option for the Thief as a whole.
When a Thief stays completely motionless, its form grows almost invisible (like seeing yourself or a friendly in Stealth). Its nametag and map icon also disappear. The thief, however, is not actually Stealthed, so it can still be targeted. And also, it will not gain the benefits of Stealth, but it will be able to contest/capture points.
It may not be much, but it would give a little help to a Thief. It would give it some advantage in ambushing players who are not paying attention.
Perhaps make it take 3 seconds of standing motionless to fade completely.
- Punish repeated skill use with diminish returns. Each time you use a skill in succession its stats are 75% of the last time.
Most of that sounds good to me but I wouldn’t want to be punished for using what I need to at the moment otherwise why have initiative rather than cooldowns?
Agreed. Personally, I would prefer some other incentive. Perhaps lowering the next skill’s initiative cost if it is a different skill. Or maybe a 5% damage instead.
They could go the old fashioned fighting/hack-n-slash route and give inter-skill combinations… basically skill-chains. It could give the Thief an edge outside of normal auto-attack chains or combination fields and finishers. Just random example on successful hits…
Headshot → Heartseeker = Additional 1/2 sec Daze
Or have such combinations change the #1 skill similar to how Stealth does…
Headshot → Heatseeker = #1 skill becomes a 1-sec knockdown
For some reason, I’m thinking of grapples now, haha! Imagine if Withdraw and Roll for Initiative would actually “grapple” an enemy within a range of 100… and the Thief would take that target backwards on the roll, then throw them even further back. Think of an extreme version of this…
Thank you also!
Lots of learning to do… Thief is quite different :-P
Thank a lot! :-D
Hallo, all! I’m a Thief main, but looking to gear up a Ranger.
I have ZERO experience playing as one, and I don’t have HoT.
While I would definitely accept suggestions for PvP builds, I’m trying to find out what gear to buy for WvW mainly. Unfortunately, MetaBattle doesn’t help non-HoT players much.
Thank you! :-D
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Or thief or warrior depending on what archetype of ranger you had in mind.
I think the Thief would classify more as a “Rangerless Pet” than a “Petless Ranger” ;-P
All ranged attacks cannot shoot from behind the player casting them.
I just did a quick test with the Shortbow to be certain.
When standing still…
1, 3: Shoots where you are facing (without target) or rotates to face target, then shoots (with target).
2, 4, 5: Rotates to ground target, then shoots.
When moving…
1. Shoots where you are facing (without target) or does not do anything at all if facing away from the target (with target).
3. Shoots where you are facing (without target) or rotates to face target, then shoots (with target).
2, 4, 5: Shoots wherever you ground target without rotating… at any angle, actually.
So basically, the auto-attack is the only skill, at least in my experience, that you have to manually face the target (when moving) before it will activate. Sadly, it won’t even do a quick turn-around to shoot like Disabling Shot does :-(
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I use Shadow Shot for blinds. I use Headshot for interrupts. I use Heartseeker when it’s under 50%. I use Steal for interrupts as well as the stolen item. I use Backstab when I end up in Stealth. I auto-attack like crazy between everything else.
In a 1v1, most of my time is dealing with traps and CC. But on the 2v1, I’m as aggressive as I can be. It’s not so much that the DH hurts me unless I get trapped, but I can’t hurt it either… at least, not enough. I remember a few Elementalists that caused me the same problem once upon a time.
A lot of builds may feel tanky to me, but every so often, one of these “immortal” players cross my path. Makes me scratch my head. I’m not a pure glass cannon, but I’m not too far from it.
If the other team has a TANKY Dragonhunter sitting on Far, and the rest of its players are on Mid, and one of your teammates goes Far, while the other 3 of your teammates are at Mid…. where do you go?
It’s a 3v4 against your team at Mid.
It’s a 1v1 at Far.
I try to help out the guy at Far, but the problem is that we CANNOT down that DH at all.
I feel very helpless in those situations. I run DA/CS/T, so I think I would have the damage output. I’ve tried Shortbow to kite. I’ve tried every single skill on D/P, but it will… not… die! Not even with a teammate.
I’ve had this problem with some Elementalists in the past. And to a certain extent with Engineers. But I keep reading on the forums that Thieves have such huge bursts. I feel rather lacking :-(
Or you have a rune that does damage when you are hit. Or, maybe there is another friendly field that you are leaping through when you try to go stealth. That always sucks when a fire field takes precedence over what you really want.
That could be a cause.
For me recently, though, it’s happened a lot when I’m without teammates around… and using Rune of the Scrapper. So it’s still a mystery :-P
I’m not sure if it’s AoE CC where I land, or getting downed before I land… or just lag. Maybe a mix of all 3.
Maybe. Thief is still the most fluid combat class in the game
Speaking of which, I do wish they would make things more “fluid” inside of combat… from a technical aspect. QoL, I suppose. Like making evade skills/animations take priority over normal skills/animations. Perhaps reducing some of the aftercast delays of skills.
I know it’s a Third Person MMO, but some tighter controls would do wonders for a Thief.
Random thought… why can every Shortbow skill EXCEPT the auto-attack shoot backwards or at a target behind the Thief??? Would it be too much to add the same ability to the AA?
I think I understand what the OP means. It is very common for me to try and enter Stealth only to be denied for whatever reason. Usually, it’s at the end of a Heartseeker through Smoke Field.
I’m not quite sure what stops it. Many times, I’m sure I even have the Stealth “text bubble” that pops up when you do a combination. But I land inside of AoE or whatever, and I don’t actually get Stealth. It also happens when I leap right before I get downed. Unlike Shadow Refuge, normal Stealth doesn’t seem to carry over as easily.
I think, therefore I am.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
Haha, I suppose it depends on what you would consider “worth” doing.
You’re not going to be making money by playing Thief… or GW2 for that matter.
So it depends on your purpose for playing the game :-)
As for me, the Thief gives speed and challenge.
Of course, I always played “underdog” builds in other games.
WWII flight sims in particular, while others would be flying the Spitfire, I’d be flying the Hurricane and ME-110. Wow… where did those days go? :-D
Am I missing something? How can you tell where the ball is or who has it?
Hahaha, I couldn’t even tell I had the ball without closely looking at my skill bar :-P
It not gonna be OP because your constant auto chain could cause “revealed”. Which is mean when you really need stealth, you may unable to do, because of that auto revealed
Yes, that’s why it would be a choice like Last Refuge is now… compared to what it used to be.
In fact, I still find it odd that Merciful Ambush is a required trait for Shadow Arts. I don’t always want to go Stealth when reviving… especially if I’m trying to contest a point.
Thought of this concept?
A new major trait in Shadow Arts…
Ravaging Shadow:
The final skill of a melee auto-attack chain grants 1 second of Stealth on a successful hit
It would be a major trait so it would not be forced onto anyone. It would be in Shadow Arts to give Thieves more access to the line’s benefits.
While it would affect Dagger/Pistol, it would benefit other sets without so much access to Stealth the most.
It has a natural cooldown based on the Revealed mechanic.
It would reward aggressive players by requiring a full auto-attack chain to hit, yet it grants only enough Stealth to clear a condition (Shadow’s Embrace) and to immediately hit with a Stealth Attack. Already being in melee in order for the auto-attack to actually hit, the Thief will already be in very good position for the Stealth Attack to successfully land.
Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting?
As a Thief, I feel left out :-(
Thieves are the scapegoat for any mishaps your team may have. Home lost? Thief’s fault.
Thief tells everyone that it’s going Far before the game starts, then wins a 1v1 and takes Far, everybody else went Mid and got wiped, and no one took Home to start? Thief’s fault ;-)
Having Shadow’s Embrace switch places with Merciful Ambush seems to make a lot more sense. Merciful Ambush seems to fit better with the other two Adept Majors anyway. In fact, I would even suggest some mixing and combining those traits as follows…
Merciful Ambush keeps its Stealth on revive as well as faster revives. I would also move the Deception skill recharge to this.
Last Refuge and Concealed Defeat get combined. Blinding Powder at 25% health as well as Smoke Screen on downed. In fact, I’d also add Blinding Powder on downed also.
That opens up a slot for a new trait :-)
I’ve also explained anything not mentioned in the other thread to give you a better understanding about the CS line (and why it’s unfortunately so bad).
/5minuteforumpostwaittimeproblems
Thank you also!
I’m still curious, though… what do you think of Ferocious Strikes either…
a. Adding the 10% critical damage on a target no matter its health.
b. Doubling it to 20% critical damage on a target above 50% health.
At that, would you be in favor of Flawless Stike having its health threshold limited to 75% or even 50%?
Thank you both so very much! :-D
The actual examples really help. Thanks again! :-D
So it should be this?
(981 * 2555 * 1) * ((Base Crit Damage * Crit Damage Modifiers) * Damage Modifiers) / (Armor)
That has Practiced Tolerance and No Quarter included in the “Base Crit Damage.”
You mentioned negative numbers being multiplied with Armor. Can you give examples of what those would include? Protection?
You don’t add the damage modifiers they are multiplicative
Which did I add? B, C, and D?
I edited to clarify…
B = Critical Damage based on Ferocity
C (Practiced Tolerance) and D (No Quarter) simply add Ferocity, correct? So they would simply add X-amount to B, am I right?
Then E (Ferocious Strikes) and F (Flawless Strike) multiplies that total Critical Damage, correct?
Hahaha, just trying to get a clear understanding :-P
EDIT: Ok, I saw your edit… and your reply in the other thread. Thanks! :-)
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
I present you combination of shadowstep and guard pull! Only fix is to relog :|
That makes me think… why does Scorpion Wire get obstructed so easily even on “even” ground, but other pulls (Guardian, Necromancer, etc.) will easily pull you down off of walls and ledges?
Does Scorpion Wire actually “pull” like normal? Or does it use “shadowstep” mechanics?
In an attempt to not derail another thread, can someone help me understand the formulae to find the Thief’s damage output specifically?
Base Damage
Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
For example…
(981) * 2555 * (1.0) / (1211) = 2069.739884393064
What comes next? Multiply that by Critical damage (Ferocity)? Base would be 150%. So assuming the previous attack was a crit..
2069.739884393064 * 1.5 = 3104.609826589596
Where would the multiplier from traits such as Lead Attacks and Exposed Weakness be inserted?
What about traits like Practiced Tolerance and No Quarter?
Or traits like Ferocious Strikes and Flawless Strike?
A. Base Damage
B. Critical Damage (Base Ferocity)
C. Practiced Tolerance
D. No Quarter
E Ferocious Strikes
F. Flawless Strike
G. Lead Attacks
H. Exposed Weakness
A * G * H = Normal hit
(A * ((B + C + D) * E * F)) * G * H = Critical hit
Is that correct? So from the first example…
Normal hit:
2069.739884393064 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 2618.220953757226
Critical hit:
(2069.739884393064 * ((1.5 + 0.1 + 0.15) * 1.1 * 1.07)) * 1.15 * 1.1 = 5392.880609501446
And even then, would you multiply all of that by 1.1 for Scholar Runes?
Or is that also factored into the equation somewhere?
Thank you! :-D
Ps. If you’re not tired from math yet, how would you get the average damage of a strike based on the critical hit percentage? Multiply each number by the percentage it will hit, then add?
(Normal damage * non-crit %) + (Critical damage * crit %) = Average damage
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The damage multipliers are multiplicative. In PvP I find Assassins to provide more burst, due to more crits.m, while Berserker tends to due more overall.
Thanks! So the traits No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance give me about 30% increased critical damage, while Ferocious Strikes gives me about a 21.7% increase (assuming a base of 217% critical damage), correct?
Interesting… I wouldn’t mind Shadowstep (or shadowstepping) to clear certain “controls.”
The other day, I engaged a Dragonhunter on point. I was losing, so I turned tail and run. It was a really quick engagement. Got hit, dodged through traps, then used the full range of Shadowstep to create distance so I could escape. About a quarter of a second later, I’m pulled 1,200+ (probably closer to 1,500) units backs right to another trap on point.
So yeah, I wouldn’t mind if Shadowstep broke “tethers” or other such things. I’m assuming I got speared after I turned my camera from the opponent so I could run, but before the actual Shadowstep. Oh well… it was an exciting flight back to the point… a long one also :-P
SA should be giving you way better cleansing unless you spend most of your time out of stealth, either indicating that you’re not playing OH pistol or simply aren’t playing it in a manner cohesive to the traits, which as you said, is probably because you play too aggressively.
Yeah, I definitely use D/P, but I don’t use Stealth very much. Shadow Arts gave me issues with my playstyle…
I either don’t enter Stealth for just one condition, lest giving up a point… or I get hit with a lot of conditions at once, which would force me to spend way too much time in Stealth… or I get hit with one condi as soon as I cleanse another, in which Revealed lasts too long for me to enter Stealth enough.
Whatever the case, Critical Strikes feels a LOT faster in downing targets… whenever I can manage to down them. I tried Bountiful Theft with Shadow Arts, but I couldn’t get the boon-steal to balance out my condition-survivability. At the level I play at, I’m just happy to get a team who fights on point and doesn’t afk if down. Unfortunately, boon-steal doesn’t fix “impaired judgment.”
I think you over-value NQ; it’s a very small increase in damage such that it’s almost tied by Ferocious Strikes alone.
Perhaps so. I think I also undervalue Practiced Tolerance. It adds nearly 14% critical damage. No Quarter gives over 16% additional critical damage. So with Ferocious Strikes, that’s what… 40+% critical damage just for those 3 traits?
Actually, how do Ferocious Strikes and Flawless Strike work? Are they additive or multiplicative?
Also, what is your opinion about Ferocious Strikes? Do you believe it would be acceptable to allow it to affect targets even below the 50% health threshold, or perhaps mirror Executioner to increase it to 20% damage increase against foes above 50% health?
EDIT: One more question… which amulet is numerically superior for DPS? Berserker or Assassin?
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Suggestion: revealed on sneak attack try.
Then, you have normal auto attacks.
Problem solved.
At this point, that’s not so bad. I’m not sure about it applying Revealed, though. Simply removing Stealth may be better.
At least it would finally give a Thief the ability to leave Stealth early without hitting anything… which they should have had since the beginning.
It’s not like a Thief can currently get more than 1 attempt before Stealth runs out anyway… at least in a real combat scenario. Stealth-stacking in combat is so old-fashioned :-(