Thats why i was talking about using skills wisely…like baiting your opponend to burn those kind of skill,save your burst for the appropriate moment?!.They use the reveal shadow step away/bow away stealth back=> steal and engage again…is this an absurd scenario?!Or is actually possible for a thief to move away from reveal area of effect,reset and start again?!And i know thieves can do this.
It would be great to always have that capability. And I’m sure it’s possible to do so. But how practical is it?
The main issue is that Thieves are truly glass. One wrong move, and they’re dead. You almost have to be able to predict the future to be able to win some fights.
Sadly, it’s not as easy as it may seem to be able to disengage at a moment’s notice, especially on certain builds.
Neither is it always simple to reacquire Stealth once it is taken away. Even if Revealed only took away Stealth instead of preventing it for a time, a Dagger/Pistol Thief would require 3-6 seconds just to be able to use a second Black Powder + Heartseeker combo. Without it, he must rely on utilities which he may not have even slotted for, especially if Shadow Refuge becomes so dangerous.
The Thief may have just switch weapons which would lock him out of getting to his Shortbow for 10 seconds. And even then, if he had just used a Black Powder + Heartseeker combo, he still may not have enough initiative to get off an Infiltrator’s Arrow.
I know everything is situational, but even when not at risk of being Revealed, combat situations usually do not favor the Thief. It’s too glassy, the initiative cost is high to Stealth, non-stealth utilities are needed to survive, etc.
Some problems can be fixed. Providing more ways to enter Stealth, cleanse conditions, and break stuns. Giving the Thief a higher health pool or more Toughness as baseline. Increasing initiative regeneration. Giving more dodge abilities (like the old Feline Grace… and not requiring Daredevil). Allowing instant-weapon swap so they don’t get locked into or out of Shortbow. There are so many possibilities. But sadly, things keep getting stacked against the Thief… like Revealed.
As long as the Thief does not gain any more viable methods to survive or through-the-roof offensive capabilities, then it really doesn’t deserve to have more or more powerful threats thrown its way.
EDIT:
Basically, Thieves are not super-fighters to begin with. It takes a LOT of effort to punch through some builds’ defenses. It takes even more effort to be able to survive against their attacks. Initiative, utilities, and weapon sets all have to be managed extremely well to just do damage and survive. When you bring in the ability to completely negate the Thief’s sustainability, that adds a completely new dimension to the fight. It is almost like fighting on two fronts. You’re having to blow more initiative and more dodges just to get back on somewhat equal footing. And that’s like fighting someone with an arm tied behind your back.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Basilisk Venom, Shadow Step, backstab, blinding powder, shadow shot, then spam 1 and heartseeker if he is below 25%.
Is that the combo you use?
Do you open with Shadow Step (utility)? If so, I would save it in case you get stunned or get hit with multiple conditions.
Or do you open with Steal instead? Steal should stun (with Basilisk Venom and Mug) as well as Stealth you (Hidden Thief) so you can Backstab, so that would make more sense, especially because it opens the fight giving you Fury (Thrill of the Crime).
Personally, I would save Black Powder (not Blinding Powder, correct?) for when you need to Stealth because it’s so costly to your initiative pool. Unless you can get the opponent to stand in it, you’d be much better off with using only Shadow Shot to Blind. It’s cheaper and gets you in his face.
As for going up against different builds, it’s important to learn Thief tricks. I’m not sure how experienced you are, but here are some videos that may have some tips you haven’t learned yet…
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Av81XhRu5c
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As for Rangers, some builds are worse than others. But it is always important to get close (when they have their bows out). If not, you’re a sitting duck. That’s why it’s important to be able to Stealth long enough to reach them (Black Powder + Heartseeker x 4). Our Steal is also long-ranged now, so it can help.
I don’t use Shadow Arts much, I actually prefer Critical Strikes, so I depend on a lot of Tricks and Stun Breakers. Withdraw and Roll For Initiative really help me against Rangers.
Just remember that you do have Headshot to interrupt heals and skills like Rapid Fire.
Ps. If you are willing to give up Hidden Killer (Stealth on Steal), then you can pre-cast Black Powder, Steal, Heartseeker, then Backstab. What that does is actually drop the blinding field on top of the target.
ok
3rd party addonsthis is pretty big, damage meters and ui customization would be alot more veteran MMO player friendly and keep people playing
I think I can make that suggestion somewhat better…
1st party OPTIONAL UI customization.
I understand some players enjoy the clean UI and subtle notifications for things.
But personally, I would rather have more blatant info when I’m in the middle of combat.
I would also like more detailed information about effects (boons, conditions, etc.) without having to mouse over them. The option to have countdown timers on them like skills and utilities have cooldown timers. At least put a white degrading borders around effect icons (like boons and conditions have) such as Stealth and Revealed.
Of course, I’d also love to have some kind of “cooldown icons” for trait/rune/sigil procs also.
Another thing I’d like is the option to use numerical/percentage displays for things like Endurance, Health, and Initiative.
I also love the idea I read in another thread about potential condition damage (how much damage applied conditions will do if not cleansed) grey out that amount of health on the UI.
Everything needs to be OPTIONAL, of course. I don’t want to ruin the beauty and feel for other players. But I would also love more options for my own enjoyment and effectiveness.
if u followed what i said i didnt ask thieves to
play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.
but to
use their skills wisely and they must be aware that stealthing its not 100% rewarding as it was,cos someone could run a stealth reveal and he could use it…if thats the case,adapt your strategy…
But how is a Thief supposed to do this? Simply abandon sustainability (Shadow Arts) completely? Run away from every profession that may possibly have a Reveal skill?
The issue isn’t Stealth not being 100% rewarding. The problem is that against a Reveal-capable opponent, Stealth CAN be negated 100% for however long. No condi-removal, no health regeneration, no damage mitigation, no hiding to avoid damage, no powerful/useful Stealth-required attacks. It’s not just an “oh drat, he can see me” matter.
Basically, a Thief is like a scuba-diver deep beneath the sea. Stealth with Shadow Arts is its oxygen tank. Being Revealed isn’t just a simple leak in the tank, it’s the complete removal of the tank.
Let’s take your example of Shadow Refuge. I can use it wisely where I can avoid getting knocked out of it. I can place it far enough away from the enemy, or I can place it against a wall. Or I can even dodge and evade inside of it. And even if there was a situation I knew it was unwise to even try to use it, I can use other means to enter Stealth. But against a Revealing opponent, there’s not much you can do and still be able to fight. And within a match, there’s no way to change traitlines or utilities in order to adapt. Basically, a Thief with Shadow Arts is a 3-legged stool. The Reveal skills completely knock out one of those legs.
Think of a buffed Diamond Skin trait vs. a full Condition Damage build. It’s not even fair.
I´m running D/P and I litearally can´t kill anyone in pvp.
I hit people for ten seconds straight and they still have like 70% of their health then they turn around and kill me within half a second.
What gives?
Can you say what traits/utilities you’re running? And also the tactics you use?
Have you tried any other weapon sets?
U can be pushed out from shadow refuge with a knockback…how come the knockback its not a gamebreaking thing for thieves then?
Honestly???
You really just compared a single skill to an entire traitline and mechanic?
You do realize that Revealing a Thief is like locking an Elementalist out of Fire and Water attunements for an extended period of time, don’t you?
It’s not a simple matter of “play and counter play. If you take away one thing, I’ll do another.”
What you’re really telling Thieves to do is play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.
Go roaming in WvW with a non-Stealth Thief and see how long you last. If that’s not enough, play a “smart” stealth Thief, and wait until you get a 30-second Revealed debuff because somebody (literally could have been anybody) set a Stealth Disruptor Trap.
I’m already running full glass, non-Shadow Arts builds. The only way I get into Stealth is Cloak and Dagger or Black Powder + Heartseeker. The only good stealth does me is to give me a Backstab, and I may avoid a few strikes as I approach. But I’m having to give up boon-stealing in order to gain the condition cleansing I lose. And the only way I heal is through my Heal skill or by getting out of combat. Sustainability really has been thrown out the window.
By ‘flooded’ you mean add one extra reveal to the engineer? which requires using sneak gyro? Bringing the total amount of reveal skills up to 4. Three of which are on the engineer making it only two classes that can actively reveal you.
You need to stop using stealth as a crutch.
Umm, I think you may want to go back over the incoming specs. Also, don’t forget about the Stealth Disruptor Trap in WvW.
It’s not so much that stealth is a crutch for the Thief. It’s more like Stealth is the gateway to sustainability and the highest damaging and useful attacks.
Sadly, that is the fault of the devs, not the players.
Pardon? You think there aren’t 1.3 million Rangers out there with Longbows and therefor stealth? You’re saying PU Mesmer wasn’t a juggernaut?
Professions that have access to stealth consistently load it. I can hardly wait to smirk and repeat the Thief mantra “Stealth isn’t OP, L2P noob” while on my Runes of the Trapper Dragonhunter.
I don’t think it’s necessarily Stealth that is “OP.” It think it’s just the icing on the cake. It’s kind of like the boogie man. It’s not the darkness that makes him dangerous… it’s what he can do when he reveals himself.
Hmm, think about it like this…
A visible Chuck Norris.
An invisible Chuck Norris.
Is the invisible Chuck Norris lethal? Yes, but the invisibility isn’t what makes him so. He can kill you just as easily if you can see him the whole time.
Now, think of this…
A Black Widow spider on a white wall.
A Black Widow spider on a black wall.
Which is lethal? Well, technically, they CAN both kill you. But which actually has the better odds? The one that blends in enough so you don’t see it. Because the one that you do see, you are going to either avoid it or smash it with a shoe. And even if you do get caught unaware and get bit, you’re still probably going to smash it and make it to the hospital before you get in too bad of a condition.
So yeah, Stealth is about the only thing Thieves have to fall back on. Stay invisible or die. Others don’t need Stealth to survive or do damage like Thieves need it.
lol, that’s a funny way to play D/P…as tactical — because doing so you lose a lot of effectiveness.
When you see a big attack coming, you don’t interrupt — instead you need to use Shadow Shot to blind the attacker and get in melee range for counter-attack. The only ability you should be interrupting is healing skills…everything else can be dodged or blinded.
In the same way, when a big attack is coming to hit a D/D, you don’t dodge the attack, instead you use DB to evade it and counter-attack at the same time. It’s a higher skill level of playstyle that requires practice but very effective. If I need to interrupt, I use Steal(SoH spec).
Perhaps so, but at least D/P gives me the ability to choose how to play, Interrupting or Blinding. D/D doesn’t afford me that luxury.
Indeed, it takes more skill to play D/D effectively, I’m not denying that at all. But I believe it is because of the lack of utility. My main issue with it is staying close enough to melee against ranged opponents. Dancing Daggers and Heartseeker can help slow down and reach an opponent, but they have their own issues. First, Heartseeker isn’t a full gap closer, it is only partial. Secondly, it has no evade frames to avoid attacks while closing the gap. That is why I view Shadow Shot and Infiltrator’s Strike as superior skills.
I do love having an evading skill, but I’d much rather have Interrupts… even with a set like D/P. Trying to Blind or evade skills like Rapid Fire or Unload seems less effective. Not to mention that multiple Interrupts come in very handy in many situations. Stripping Stability, stopping rez’s and stomps, stopping channeling, preventing another D/P Thief from Stealthing. These are things that really do take multiple Interrupts.
I understand that D/D has access to Thief traits, utilities, and mechanics, but the set itself is lacking in utility. The problem with that is that it also seems to require the same mechanics/utilities for different purposes…
Stealing: Needed for gap closing and an Interrupt.
Infiltrator’s Signet: Needed for gap closing and a Stun Break.
Shadow Step: Needed for gap closing/opening, condition removal, and a Stun Break.
They all have “long” cooldowns, and they are all needed in different situations. You really have to make the difficult choice of when you’re going to use one, because you may need it for something else in a few moments.
That’s what I find amazing about D/P. I can Interrupt, Blind, and fully close gaps as long as I have initiative. If I’m out, I only need to buy a few seconds to have it ready again. Not to mention being able to Stealth on demand. I’m able to do things with it that I have extremely limited access to with D/D. On top of that, D/P still has access to utilities/mechanics/utilities. And because of its inherent utility, it even frees the user up to select different traits and utilities, making a build even more versatile.
I’m definitely not saying that D/P is best at everything or requires the most skill. But it does feel like it has so many useful things built into it, I’m rather shocked that the other sets don’t have more utility build in.
Whatever the case, I am all for adding more goodies to the other sets. Again, I love the Sword. In fact, I’d be very excited to see what we would get with an off-hand Sword… if that day ever comes. Here’s to hoping!
Joking aside. S/D is not about stealth so your dilemma is non-existence.
Indeed, it may just be my playstyle. I was actually running a “bunker” build with S/D and S/P at one point. The objective was to be able to fight on point, but also to survive. After Acro got nerfed, I was using Shadow Arts so I could heal up in Stealth. I would actually use S/D off-point to Stealth if I got ambushed, then used S/P on-point for Interrupts and Blinds. But eventually, the Pistol wasn’t enough to sustain me, so I would have to switch back to the Dagger for evades and Stealth.
Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.
Nah. You’re just playing the weapon set wrong. You want D/P functionality in D/D, so why not just use D/P?
With D/D, you can be really aggressive or you can be tactical — that’s why this weapon set is hard to balance, maybe because it already is. What it needs is DB to be more reliable.
I think that’s my main issue. D/P feels very “tactical.” It has so much utility and versatility, I can choose how to play. It’s a power set, not a condi set, but that doesn’t make it less tactical. It gives me everything I need… all of the needed tools.
If I see a big attack coming, I can Interrupt. If I need to get close or Blind, I Shadow Shot. If I need to Stealth or Backstab, I can Black Powder + Heartseeker.
D/D doesn’t seem to have nearly as much ability. Yes, it can be used as a condi/hybrid set, but it’s still lacking utility. It may have the raw damage output, but it doesn’t give me enough tools to apply it effectively. The main thing it could use is a full gap closer… or at least better/longer evasions.
I will equate D/D to a very short fighter going up against a very tall fighter. Once the shorter fighter is “hugging” the taller fighter, he can use knees and elbows to tremendous effect. But before he can get there, he has to get past the long reach (“kill zone”) of the taller fighter.
I just feel that D/P has a tool for almost every situation, but other weapon sets are lacking when compared to it.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
I hate SB as well. If we had weapon swap cooldown reduction like Warriors, it would be a better set. On that note, why does Warrior get swap cooldown? Aren’t we supposed to be the masters of weapons?
You’re also looking at it wrong. You’re forgetting the amount of Evades that S/D gets and how you can basically keep an enemy at max distance w/ P/D while inflicting conditions. There’s a bunch of synergy with the rest of the game mechanics and stealth is not the end all-be all mechanic for us. But yeah, D/P is the most versatile set. D/D gives you access to damaging backstabs, P/P allows you to pew pew from range for >5~7k per unload. You can’t look at these sets in a vacuum based on stealth, aa speed, and cleave.
Indeed, the other weapon sets have their perks, but I was comparing them to Dagger/Pistol for the most part…. seeing what they lacked. I’ve edited the original post to reflect that.
Again, I love the Sword. I used to run with a Sword/Dagger in one set with Dagger/X in another. I loved switching fighting styles in mid-combat. But after playing with Dagger/Pistol, I just feel very lacking without Blinds and Interrupts. It’s especially true when I do run Shadow Arts (I tend to use Critical Strikes instead), because it’s much more difficult to get into Stealth.
And the reason I see Stealth kitten vital is because of the condi-removal and health regeneration.
I’ve been running Dagger/Dagger recently. It feels great, but again, it’s lacking so much. Once I’ve used Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet, I’m in a world of hurt against ranged opponents.
If it weren’t for that darn Infiltrator’s Arrow, I wouldn’t touch the Shortbow. But I’ve been reluctantly taking it because I want to become a better Thief.
All of this is coming from a PvP perspective, though. I tend to run power/crit builds there. I used to run Dire P/D in WvW, but I’ve given it up for D/P to have more Stealth, Backstabs, and Tormenting Interrupts. And again, the second “weapon” slot is reserved for the Shortbow… which I’m really starting to despise.
Maybe I’ll make a ranking system for the weapon sets based on pros/cons later. I’m pretty sure Dagger/Pistol will be the undisputed champion, though. I wouldn’t mind so much if the Shortbow weren’t required so I could have an alternate set. Again, some sets are so close… they are just lacking one or two things.
It’s amazing how a small change or two can completely change the viability of something. For example, traps became viable (in WvW) because direct damage was removed, making Trapper’s runes worth taking. Having Trapper’s Respite set a trap on heal just made it even better. If Shortbow’s Choking Gas didn’t do any direct damage (as before), it would be so much more useful for condi builds. If Cloak and Dagger had a Blind attached or gave you Stealth without requiring a successful melee strike… or if Dancing Dagger shadowstepped you to the target like Shadow Shot, Dagger/Dagger would be amazing!
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
I know I’m just beating a dead horse, but honestly, who came up with the way these weapon sets work? It seems like they were created with levels of difficulty in mind instead of balance.
Let’s use Dagger/Pistol as the standard set. Everything else is compared to it.
Dagger/Pistol
Best Stealth Attack. Best finisher. Full gap closer. Blinds. Interrupts. On-demand Stealth (condi-removal/health regen).
Dagger/Dagger
No full gap closers, blinds, or interrupts. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.
Sword/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.
Sword/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. No access to Stealth. High damage attack roots you in place.
Pistol/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No interrupts or blinds. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.
Pistol/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No gap opener. No evades. No damaging AoE or cleave. No access to Stealth.
Shortbow
Weak damage on most attacks. High damage skill is super-slow. Stealth Attack is very weak.
Really, if your life depended on it, why would you not choose Dagger/Pistol? It seems to be the “Super” weapon set… the true Elite.
I love the Sword, though. But having to choose between Stealth or Interrupts/Blinds is not fun.
Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.
And yes, I dislike the Shortbow. It’s great for mobility, but I hate getting stuck with it in combat. It would be perfect as it is if I had instant-weapon swap… or if it was an F3 mode. But that’s not the case, sadly.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
From a Thief’s perspective, would we function better if there were changes made to the way Traitlines work? What if one of these happened…
A. We were given access to more than 3 full Traitlines. Either given a full 4th line or even a 5th. Would that be enough to bring the Thief up to par in combat?
B. We go back to the old way of things where we can spend our 18 points however we choose in whatever Traitlines we desire. Like 4/1/6/1/6. Would the Thief gain sustainability?
C. The 3 full Traitlines were based on the equipped weapon set. For example, running a Dagger/Pistol and Shortbow build, when D/P is equipped, Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery is active, but when swapping to Shortbow, Shadow Arts/Acrobatics/Trickery is active. Would that give the Thief enough flexibility in combat to be effective?
Because I guess permastealth, high single target burst, and crazy map mobility is weak.
Well, I wouldn’t say perma-stealth or mobility is weak. I would say it’s not strong. It is simply utility.
As for the high single target burst, I think that is relative. What profession does not have that in the current game? Can Thieves hit hard? Yes. Can they hit hard enough? No, not against today’s defenses.
However, I can say without a doubt the the Thief is literally weak in its defensive capability. 11k health with little Armor is truly glass… very fragile glass. Sure, glass is sharp and can cut you, but there’s a reason swords are made with steel instead of glass.
There have always been durable builds for Thieves, but nobody wants to actually give up some of that sweet, sweet offensive mojo to actually put stat points into defensive stats and build for a longer encounter.
What is the solution for non-Daredevil Thieves in PvP? I’ve gone with full “bunker” builds, and still can’t hold a point… but I can’t kill a fly while I’m at it. I’m talking non-stealth, rope-a-dope sword builds.
Sadly, I don’t believe the Thief is designed to be effective defensively, especially in PvP. You can get away with it in WvW with Dire and Stealth, but the best defense a Thief has in PvP is offense. And even that advantage got shredded with a history of patches.
If I can’t even kill something as a full Glass Cannon, how can I expect to kill something when I give up damage, but don’t gain enough sustainability in return? Other professions have too much damage mitigation and passive defenses ON TOP of heavy damage output. While the Thief has very little passive defense, and even its active defenses got gutted, all while having its damage output compromised. Not to mention having most of its sustainability (health regen, condi cleansing, avoiding/mitigating damage) AND much of its offensive capability (Backstab, Tactical Strike) completely at risk of being negated through Reveal skills.
I’m completely fine with pure active defenses like in Ninja Gaiden. But the current Thief simply does not have enough capability to survive with it alone. The current passive defense doesn’t seem to offer enough fighting effectiveness or sustainability… especially without Stealth.
I can’t speak for Daredevil, but the base Thief is not in a good place for single combat… offensively or defensively, at least in PvP.
Minor grandmaster
Way of the fox – your bass movement speed is increased by 25%
But… there’s no underwater combat in PvP :-(
You cannot reflect a reflect, therefore you get hit.
Wow, that makes no sense! What are these devs thinking??? Maybe this is the root of all our problems… lack of solid logic :-(
Ps. Thanks!
First, I brought you the Traitline for Non-Stealth, but now, I see another need for the good of the Thief profession.
I’ve heard a lot of talk about it not being fair if the Thief had superior mobility as well as superior fighting ability in a 1v1. So, in order to solve that issue while also opening up more combat capability for the Thief, I present to you the…
Anti-Elite Specialization
(AKA: Self-inflicted Nerfdom)
Now, the only way this will work is if the base Thief is buffed tremendously with sustainability. More power, more toughness, more health, more evasion… whatever it takes to get it on par with everyone else.
Then… you remove the Shortbow from the base Thief. That’s right! Make it exclusive only to those who choose the Anti-Elite Specialization. Just as Daredevil gets Staff, this line gets Shortbow.
However, you will be required to spec fully into this line. Why is that? Because every trait will reduce your capabilities in some way. For example…
Adept Minor
Projectile Dysfunction (AKA: Bow Envy):
You get access to a new weapon. The good news: it’s a bow. The bad news: it’s too short to please. Wait, is this even a weapon?
Adept Majors
Blackout:
Did you pay your Power bill? No? It is reduced by half.
Wheaton Curse:
Wil Wheaton touched your dice. Always roll a 1. Precision… what is that? You never Critical Hit.
Wet Noodle:
Even if you hit the opponent in his “wet noodle,” you hit like one also. Ferocity is reduced by 75%.
Master Minor
Turn It Up To 11:
Your Health has been reduced to 11k. Yes, we hate you. We know you know. That’s why we’re smiling! ;-)
Master Majors
Junkie
A needle may be infected, but at least you won’t bleed to death. Bleeding damage you cause is reduced by 66%.
Iocane Powder:
Your enemies have spent the last few years building up immunities. Your Poisons do no damage. But at least they can’t heal, right?
We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Burning!:
You have lost all ability to apply Burning to your foe. Actually, you will also Confuse yourself when you apply Confusion to an enemy. Why? I don’t know… it’s so Confusing!
Note: Yes, Thieves were actually buffed to apply a lot of Burning. But this trait takes it away. Sorry for the Confusion! :-P
Grandmaster Minor
That’s What She Said:
“Go away until I need you again! But when I call, you’d better have it out and ready!” When there are no allies nearby, all of your stats are reduced by 99%. Fortunately, you don’t need stats to decap nodes. Also, any non-Shortbow weapon cannot be unsheathed. “Hey, just be glad I let you do something. But don’t complain, because I’m sure a Ranger’s pet could satisfy me just fine!”
Grandmaster Majors
C’mon, It Will Only Take A Minute!:
Gone are the days when you could perform all night. You simply don’t have the Endurance you used to. You only get two dodge bars. Endurance regenerates at the same rate as any other profession… and slower then some.
Paper Tiger:
If you are a Charr, your Toughness is reduced by 90%. If you are not a Charr, your Toughness is also reduced by 90% so we will not suffer any discrimination lawsuits.
Conditioning:
You are the master of conditions… but only when they are applied to you. In fact, you love them so much, the only way you can cleanse them is by entering stealth (if also traited).
If Thieves were buffed and given the ability to choose such a traitline, then we would actually be able to fight OR be mobile! We would actually have a choice whether we want to 1v1 or +1! :-D
Or… they could just do something with Shortbow 5.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Just curious to know the result of the following…
Two opposing Thieves use Daggerstorm simultaneously. What happens to the projectiles? Do they just bounce between the two until the skill ends? Similar to a Zelda battle like this?
https://youtu.be/uyDloMg58AU?t=126
Ah, sad news indeed!
Thank you, though! :-D
I’ve read that if you put 4 of the same type of item (like a sword) in the Mystic Forge, you will get the same type of item (sword).
Is this also true for doubloons? If I put in 4 copper doubloons, will I get a doubloon from the forge?
Just asking before I risk any gold on the hunt for Silver Doubloons! :-P
Thank you!
I don’t know if it counts but….once i said “thank you” to an NPC that ressed me at a Silverwastes camp. After that i looked around to see if anyone saw me humiliate myself typing to an npc…Y_Y
Hahaha, been there! :-P
When I was still leveling my Thief, I loved to go into WvW. I always felt so weak… being a lower-level Thief (probably in my 30’s), but I enjoyed WvW more than PvE, so I never took the time to go level myself.
Anyway, I once made my way to the southwest tower on my server’s WvW Borderland. I saw an enemy come to attack, so I engaged. Managed to get some hits in while evading his. But no matter how hard I hit him, I couldn’t even dent his health bar!
Then some allies of mine came along to assist. Probably 8-10 friendlies. Unfortunately, it was not in time. He whacked me, and I went down for the count. But I stayed around to watch the epic battle. They let loose on him…. for about 2 full minutes! He simply WOULD NOT DIE!!!
It absolutely astonished me! Here, he kills me in about two hits. But he’s able to withstand a small zerg! He FINALLY succumbed to the onslaught, but it was such a valiant stand! I was in awe of whatever kind of build he was running. I became very jealous. And actually, I still am to this day.
I don’t remember the details about him too well, but I do remember he was Charr with a Commander tag ;-)
And that is a true story.
Thank you very much for the clarification! :-)
If I may make one request, however, would it be too much to ask to change the Thief’s Shadow Trap returns into true teleports instead of shadowsteps? Well, at least in PvP? Or just disable them inside of WvW gates and PvP spawns.
Using the Destroy Trap or Shadow Pursuit is a big gamble. I’m either using it to get out of Dodge, or I’m using it to get on top of the enemy. Whenever it only “teleports” me 10 feet away from my original position, it completely fails in either task.
Ps. Is this bug also why the Thief’s Scorpion Wire doesn’t function properly most of the time?
Sadly, it seems that the ability to steal items before a match begins and retain them at the start of the match has been stealthily removed.
If it was a bug, then has the missing 10% Withdraw heal been “fixed” also???
Through countless minutes of research (honestly… I didn’t count them), I have come upon evidence of what we all suspected….
Thieves are actually Ninja!
Unfortunately, I fear that Thieves are lower ranking ninja. We are clearly missing many features we should have.
I give you the first piece of evidence…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_1HJbMngE&feature=youtu.be&t=143
Notice how they enter stealth, but it only lasts for a few moments. They are forced to fight while completely visible.
Sadly, we are missing the cool /maskon and /maskoff animations as well as hand symbols to get us into stealth. But we are clearly not missing the lag that was prevalent in the video.
The second piece of evidence can clearly show the result of Anet’s latest action…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WPDDZyzvxo
Yes, the last few seconds were undoubtedly of a P/P Thief dominating with increased Unload power!
I hope I have given ample evidence to convince the naysayers that the Thief truly is a Ninja. And I’m sure there will be much more evidence to come. Please feel free to share your own!
Ps. Unfortunately, the Thief shall never reach its fullest Ninja potential until we are given MOUNTS. After all, what good is a Ninja without the capability to joust in style???
https://youtu.be/jyYUbgi0A0o?t=67
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Or how about just rerolling and killing everyone with their own professions. Because that is balance.
Only if we can make others reroll to Thief to try to kill us also ;-P
Sb5 isn’t reason why thieves are in sad state right now, reason is endless qq from players that never touched thief class and devs having 0 interest in this class.
You inspired me with an idea! :-D
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Solution-to-the-QQing-about-Thieves/
It’s so simple! As Shadowstep said in another thread…
Sb5 isn’t reason why thieves are in sad state right now, reason is endless qq from players that never touched thief class and devs having 0 interest in this class.
Whenever a new player starts Guild Wars 2 for the first time, force them into a tutorial. During this tutorial, of course, they will have to play a Thief. They will be lead through several engagements, and they will surely die many, many times. They will be taught that running is the best solution to most situations. In one test, they must must remain on point for 30 seconds (without stealth) against an enemy, the goal being to wait until another profession comes to actually fight and win.
Hopefully, every player will then see how fragile the Thief actually is. But unfortunately, it may also result in them playing other professions at a MUCH higher level than they would otherwise… also resulting in a more difficult time for actual Thieves.
Ps. This will also, hopefully, get the devs to understand the Thief issues, seeing that they will have to make the tutorial challenges somewhat survivable.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Hmm, it won’t solve the main issue, but it could help out in the current situation…
BUFF Shortbow 5! :-D
When you shadowstep, remove a condition! :-)
I think it may be time to start thinking out of the box.
What if this is the first step to bring combat effectiveness back to the Thief?
The possible solution?…..
Give EVERY profession the initiative system.
If that happened, then Anet could actually do what they do, and try to balance everyone the same way… instead of ignoring that the Thief is unique, treating it just like everyone else.
The secondary reason (if it didn’t work) to do this is… to actually make the “Thief” obsolete for its former players. I know that I would be much happier playing another profession if I actually had the open-ended control that my Thief gives me. I STRONGLY dislike the cooldown system.
Thoughts?
Thieves never say, “Die!” (They just do it)
Besides, Halloween is just around the corner. All we need is the ability to become undead :-)
FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.
-Karl
Yes, thank you for the update. It’s good to know there are more changes coming. In fact, the more changes, the better (and not just for pistols). Hopefully, the future you speak of will be the near-future :-)
Being able to use Surprise Shot as often as we would be able to in a team fight on a D/P + SB build might be a little overpowered though.
Hmm, I’m not sure how we would be able to do that much. That’s a lot of initiative to get into Stealth unless we start using utilities… which we can already do.
As for me, I think instant weapon swap capability would really help out some builds that need it.
Dagger/Dagger and Shortbow:
D/D really lacks a gap closer. Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet have cooldowns. But while it would cost 12 initiative, Infiltrator’s Arrow would close the gap and Blind the target, while Cloak and Dagger gets you into Stealth for the Backstab. If you trait into Trickery (or wait about 3 more seconds), you can use Disabling Shot to disengage.
Sword/X and Dagger/Dagger:
Again, being able to close the gap with Infiltrator’s Strike, Cloak and Dagger, then Backstab. And instantly having the ability to Infiltrator’s Return away while waiting for Revealed to wear off.
Pistol/Pistol and Shortbow:
Simple (though initiative expensive) way to get into Stealth when needed with Black Powder and Cluster Bomb. Can be used to run away or to stack on Bleeding with Sneak Attack.
Sword/Pistol and Dagger/Pistol or X/Dagger or Shortbow:
Again, something to get you into Stealth simply to help you land Pistol Whip
Pistol/Dagger and Dagger/Pistol:
First, the ease to get into Stealth with D/P so you can Sneak Attack with P/D and get the Bleeding stacks. Secondly, it combines a gap closer with a gap creator (Shadow Shot and Shadow Strike) that makes it an evasive fighting style akin to Infiltrator’s Strike and Return.
Ps. I know some things can be done already, but they are limited to one time every 10-20 seconds. Some of the above, especially the mobility, will help D/D tremendously!
PPs. Did I mention that Infiltrator’s Arrow can BLIND the target for a Cloak and Dagger??? ;-D
I’ve been playing a signet/trapper Thief in PvP some. The way I play it is to use the “decap and +1 only” philosophy, though with a catch. I allow myself to attempt to “hold” a point when I have traps ready.
I use Assassin’s Signet, Tripwire, and Shadow Trap (along with the signet/trapper traits). I also use Sigils of Force and Impact.
This allows me to (de)cap a point and lay a Shadow Trap on it. I head to the next point, or if I see an enemy coming, I just act like I’m running away like a coward, and get out of sight.
When I see that my trap has been triggered, I activate Assassin’s Signet and Shadow Pursuit, which stealths me. Then I try to identify my target as well as I can (boons, etc.), and place Tripwire on top of him. If I’m lucky, he won’t have any passive defenses to being knocked down. Then I just open up with a Backstab. If that doesn’t do it, one Heartseeker should do the job.
I managed a 17.8k Backstab on Thief once. One-shotted a Mesmer also.
I’m running a full power/crit build, though. DA/CS/T. So no stealth regeneration of cleansing for me.
I like the Flanking Strikes trait because it allows me to follow up quickly with a Heartseeker or two if the Backstab isn’t enough. You could use Bountiful Theft (without Mug) to steal Aegis and Stability to improve your chances to get the knockdown and Backstab.
But it is a rather complex way to engage, especially if you’re going in blind. And as soon as you activate Shadow Pursuit, a good player will know something is up because he just took Vulnerability. If he has a stunbreaker ready, that’s also a problem, so you may need the Basilisk Venom ready just to be able to disengage.
Only 3 of its skills were. Interesting.
The Auto-attack.
The Stealth attack
And one Dual attack
That is only 3 out of 10 possible Pistol skills.
Not to mention that the range increase from Ankle Shots was removed, resulting in an overall nerf.
Umm, does anyone know where to submit an application to be a dev? And what are the requirements to oversee a profession?
Don’t make me remake the Thief on Unity3D!
I’ve heard it would magically make the Thief overpowered, but can someone please give me a clear explanation of exactly why it would do so?
Assuming weapon-swap sigils/traits are made to work with proper cooldowns, what would make the Thief overpowered if given instant weapon swapping? Basically, no or low (1 second) cooldown.
Reasons why it may not be overpowered…
1. Initiative pool does not refill on weapon swap.
2. Shortbow is usually locked into the second weapon set (not that it makes much of a difference).
Yes, there would be advantages, of course, but to truly make it overpowered? I don’t know about that.
Hmm, I remember a discussion like this. I think many were saying the best idea would be to “flag” yourself as a PvPer, and you could only fight others who flagged themselves also.
Personally, I’d be fine with the “PvP” aspect if Thieves alone got to be the “bad guys” ;-P
all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that
Thieves have the potential to hit very hard, that’s for sure. But they have to sacrifice almost everything to do it.
I landed a 17.8k Backstab on another Thief a couple of weeks ago in PvP. But I had to use a trapper build to do it. I had to get him to trigger 3 traps in 3 seconds before I could Backstab him. To do so, it pretty much requires him to come to a point I’ve already set a trap on, so no actual engaging on any other terms. It’s a complete and total ambush build. And if the target doesn’t go down immediately, I’m in a WHOLE lot of trouble.
I hope you have your stunbreaks ready, because basalisk venom into triple backstab is coming to a town near you.
That is EXACTLY what people need to learn to do! I’m getting tired of hearing this “Thief can burst you down from 100-0% instantly!” As a squishy Thief myself, I don’t remember the last time a Thief killed me with one burst even while stunned.
Ummm, but I do enjoy doing it to others with a signet/trapper build, hehe. But I have to catch them completely by surprise with Shadow Trap :-P
Oh No, You Didn’t!:
When Revealed, gain Retaliation and Fury for the duration of Revealed.I have to admit that “oh no, you didn’t” is my favourite trait!
Haha, actually, it really should be made baseline in tomorrow’s patch notes! With all the new Reveal skills, we will need it. And honestly, every time somebody Reveals me, I get furious and want to retaliate… especially when they use Stealth Disruptor Traps! :-P
What about superspeed and haste when revealed? And vigor regen 50% every 5 seconds.
Hmm, I think I can add those in somewhere… what about this?
Oh No, You Didn’t!:
When Revealed, gain Retaliation and Fury for the duration of Revealed.
I Can Run, But I Can’t Hide:
While not in Stealth, movement speed is increased by 25% and Stealth Attacks will replace auto-attacks. When Revealed, gain Superspeed and Quickness for the duration of Revealed.
Overwhelming Presence:
While not in Stealth, gain Vigor and Cripple nearby foes for 1 second. Pulses every second.
Ok, after some thought, and because the Thief is in need of more buffs, I have made a change to the following trait…
I Can Run, But I Can’t Hide:
While not in Stealth, movement speed is increased by 25%. Also, Stealth Attacks will replace auto-attacks.
Yes, we can now Backstab while completely visible! You may thank me now. I accept cash tips ;-)
we dont want the other professions who want us to be +1 class more fuel by repeating the 2013 thief and giving them Vietnam flashbacks
We don’t?
More fuel means more napalm!
Burn, baby, burn! :-D
It’s our job as Thieves to be hated and cursed.
You know, like landlocked pirates! :-P
We’re beggars and blighters and ne’er do-well cads,
Drink up, me hearties, yo ho!
Aye, but we’re loved by our mommies and dads!
The Thief is the only profession that claims to be a thief :-P
To make the Thief truly a Thief, this seems like a decent things to add…
When a Thief downs an opponent, the Thief steals all active boons from that target.
Well, it’s better to be OP than UP!
Honestly, I think that’s the way the Thief should be designed anyway. Precision assassins. Know where the enemy’s weakness is and exploit it. Punch through passive defenses also. Ignore boons like Retaliation, Stability, and Protection.
I think the OPness comes when you steal or remove those boons with each attack instead of ignoring them. However, stealing all boons when you down a target… that could be a truly Thiefy thing to do! :-D
yeah, crocodile tears
Stealth – Stun – burst to 0% HP – Stealth – Stomp UNINTERRUPTED whether with melee and ranged
and pretty much all the necessary skills have condi removal and OP disengage abilities
nope, needs nerf
My goodness, what profession do you play? A golem???
I play a Thief, and I can’t even remember the last time a Thief’s single burst took me down to 0 even with stealth and stuns. Stunbreakers are your friends.
I’m pretty certain you don’t play as Thief, though. Only one weapon skill (Sword 2) clears a condition. Only two utilities clear general conditions unless traited. Any other removal through utilities is for specific conditions (eg. Immobilized). Condition removal is usually left to Shadow’s Embrace which requires Stealth and time.
Heh, just like people won’t stop complaining how overpowered Mesmer is even if they are nerfed down to the damage/survivability of a single clone.
Some things are irrational. ‘shrug’
Haha, I don’t play Mesmer, so I don’t have any basis to judge :-P
And at the risk of being inconsistent, even though I don’t have access to Burning, I have died way too much from it, so it seems over the top :-P
Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.
I understand the point you’re attempting to make, but I don’t believe it’s as solid as you’re making it sound.
The Thief is purely fragile. There’s no way around that. And it has only gotten worse. The ability to avoid death was gutted. Other professions’ damage output went up while our active defense capabilities went down.
Just the method of gutting Acrobatics and forcing us to buy Daredevil if we want to have what we used to have… that is a very valid reason for contempt.
And what really takes the cake is all of the passive defenses and offensive counters that other professions have received. How is a Thief supposed to both survive and fight when we get stunned whenever we stun the enemy? Or take damage when we successfully attack a target? Or catch fire when an opponent blocks? Or when a foe can barrage us with immunity after they pop an invulnerability?
What’s sad is that it’s not even true that we are faster than anyone else. We just have VERY select skills/utilities that can get us places faster. But we still can’t outrun anyone straight up. Nor can we outdodge anyone straight up. However, we can straight up get killed faster than anyone.
It’s sad, and the Thief concept is broken. It is being treated as though it is just a normal profession when it is, in fact, unique. And somebody or somebodies didn’t even sit down and think things through when they started either designing or changing the Thief. It makes absolutely no sense to do what they’ve done if they want it to be as effective as any other profession.