Guild Wars 2

NinjaEd.3946:

[Shadow Refuge] Add effect to reduce incoming condition duration by 50% while active (this skill is already a giant marker for AoE’s).

Hmm, or perhaps an opportunity to grant the Thief the mythological boon Resistance? :-P

MarauderShields.6830:

I like the reduced cooldown of SoH, however, with stuff like Mirror of Anguish and Tempest Defense, steal turns into an “I die even faster”-button.

First of all, +1 for the heroic name! :-D

Secondly, I believe the above statement is what you were trying to say, but got lost due to the thread title.

I must confess I haven’t memorized all of the icons yet, but does a Mesmer with Mirror of Anguish even have an icon associated with the trait listed under its “nameplate?”

If not, it seems rather odd why Thieves have to have icons for their active venoms displayed to enemies, but Mirror of Anguish can be completely secret. At least we can see when Aegis or Stability is active, and those aren’t nearly as dangerous as Mirror of Anguish.

DarkSyze.8627:

New Report of Backstab Damage: 19 K. Backstab have recharge time- 1/4 seconds. Why give a high damage skill a very low recharge time with almost instant re-charge?

Maybe you can explain to me how any Backstab in the current game can land with any damage at all, then be delivered again almost instantly?

Unless you’ve found an exploit, it doesn’t work that way. A second successful Backstab is gated behind a minimum of a 3-second Revealed and another application of Stealth.

To imply otherwise is either done completely from ignorance or is a deliberate attempt to feed misinformation to those who don’t know how Thief mechanics work.

Not to mention that a 19k Backstab Thief is a one-trick pony that can be swatted like a fly.

stof.9341:

Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p

Thieves feel more like the squishy, little minions going from Point A to Point B. It is sad.

Sagat.3285:

Everything must be suport then.

This is my reasoning for this thread. “+1” isn’t a Thief role because it can be accomplished by ANY profession. But the Thief is limited to ONLY +1 engagements. That’s why it is a limitation, not a role.

As for a role, even a support role, think of Dungeons and Dragons. A Cleric can fill the role of a healer very well. That class has the abilities to do it. A Barbarian, on the other hand, would not be a good choice to keep the party healed through a fight, but it can be a great front-line striker. Each class has a role to play that they are skilled at.

I could understand the Thief having a Venom Share support role. I could understand the Thief having a stealthy Ninja Nurse support role. I can understand the Thief having the role of scout and coordinator. If the Thief were given the power or the survivability, I could see the Thief having the roles to assassinate lone targets or to intercept and harass enemies off-point.
Those are roles that the Thief can or could fulfill. You can try to argue about (de)capping being a role, but whatever the case, “+1” is just math… it’s not a role. Anyone can +1. The Thief is actually at a disadvantage compared to other professions even in a +1. It has mobility, yes, but it lacks power and survivability.

Just something to keep in mind, from what I can tell, you can only have a max of 5 stacks of stealth at a time. So that’s 15 seconds without Shadow Arts, and 20 seconds with. Sadly, I could not stack it any higher even with a perma-stealthing build for myself alone.

Amante.8109:

D/P and P/D are already existing sets that complement in each-other in interesting ways in a “changing hands” scenario.

That actually makes me think it could be used for “hit and run” evasion tactics like a Sword has with Infiltrator’s Strike.

Start with D/P.
Shadow Shot to close the gap.
Auto-attack a few times.
Change hands to P/D.
Shadow Strike to get away.
Rinse and repeat.

Not to mention giving P/D condi builds on-demand access to Stealth without relying on a melee attack.

Start with D/P.
Black Powder + Heartseeker to Stealth.
Change hands to P/D.
Sneak Attack.
Repeat.

Of course, this is assuming that changing hands would have no cooldown. Perhaps instead of a cooldown, it could have a minimal cast time so it could be interrupted. If that happened, then it could act as a 1 second daze due to you dropping your weapons.

Yes, I will always hope that the Thief will be given instant-weapon swap ability due to its unique style of play. However, here is another thought of how to give the Thief a little more to work with without too much effort…

Changing the hands the currently equipped weapons are in.
For example, a Thief has two weapon sets…

1. Dagger main-hand, Pistol off-hand
2. Shortbow

Why not allow a simple hand switch to the first weapon set? The Pistol can become main-hand with the Dagger in the off-hand.

Yes, I understand one is a power set and the other is a condition set. But at least it would give a little more capability.

Heck, Thieves only have 4 types of (land) weapons. Can’t we find a way to incorporate them all? Maybe even add a “backup” weapon like the following?

Set 1. Dagger/Pistol
Set 2. Shortbow
Backup. Sword

Unless the Sword is reworked to become an off-hand weapon, we could only replace the main-hand with the Sword. So we would end up with Sword/Pistol. Or if we changed hands first, we would have Sword/Dagger.

Or better yet, just make the Shortbow an F3 mode.

Kocoff.7582:

Thief : a person who steals another person’s property, especially by stealth and without using force or violence.

The Thief in GW2 does exactly what the dictionary says. Not using excessing force or violence, but rather excessing stealth.

Daredevil : a reckless person who enjoys doing dangerous things.

If we follow the same logic, the Daredevil is only the natural succession of the Thief. Except this time, the Thief turns increasingly reckless and actually enjoys doing crazy things.

In that case, I think most sPvP thieves these days are already Daredevils… trying to fight without hiding in stealth :-P

I think I would prefer Assassin better. Hide in shadows until the perfect moment, then steal a life with one swift, clean stroke. It’s hardly forceful or violent at all ;-)

Kocoff.7582:

I am sure you don’t want it to turn it into that other game, but I believe clarity gives out more information than blatant, raw messages. It’s actually what made me appreciate the game so much more.

I definitely don’t want to ruin the interface. I’ve actually never even played the other game. I would like to have the option to move things around and customize the interface, though. Completely optional, of course.

I’m still pretty new, so I’m still always focused on either myself or the target. Everything else is seen in the corner of my eyes. Then again, I’m playing it on a 50+ inch screen, so my eyes have to move around a lot.

I do love subtle touches, but I do feel there is a lot missing….or being missed most likely. I don’t remember the game ever telling me that a purple haze means you’re dazed or things like that. I can only imagine what all is happening that I have no clue about.

I guess I would just like some “training wheels” for my eyes. Being able to put clear, bold signs and messages in or near the center of the screen if I choose to do so. It actually reminds me of trying to learn how to drive….keeping my eyes on the road while also watching my speedometer, mirrors, and tuning the radio station! :-P

1. It may have been mentioned before, but (unless I’m missing something) can we get a little “1” or “2” over the stolen item icon so we can know if we only have one or two uses remaining please?

2. The little initiative diamonds can be a bit difficult to count when in the middle of combat. Having a simple number beside them could make it a lot easier to keep track of at a glance.

3. Numerical cooldown timers for traits/sigils/runes displayed on screen. Knowing when something like Panic Strike or the Stealth from Merciful Ambush will and will not proc is very important. Also for boon/conditions/effects without having to mouse-over them. It is vital as a Thief to know exactly how long Stealth will last, especially with multiple stacks. Many times, the application is nearly gone before I can get my cursor there.

4. More customization options. I tend to focus on my character in the center of my screen. Being able to move indicators (like the above numerical initiative indicator) closer to the center of the screen, I can keep better track of it.

5. Optional extremely obvious status indicators. Just throw subtlety out of the window. If I’m stunned, put BIG, BOLD letters on my screen that say “STUNNED.” The same for “DAZED.” And I mean HUGE letters! The problem I have is that in the middle of a blob, there is just too much happening to even see myself sometimes, especially when I’m zoomed out. Let us have the option to have a giant, red blood drop on the side of our screen to indicate we’re bleeding, or a giant, green skull when we are poisoned, etc.

6. Please do something with the stomping hand “glow.” I see it form, I see it go up, I see it come down. While I do love to be able to clearly see the progress of the stomp, it is disjointed from the actual stomper. Many times, I am in the middle of a blob, and I start to stomp. With all of the fighters, AoE, and particles, the only thing I can make out about myself is the glow. I see it form, go up, then slam down. Mission accomplished, right? Not so fast. It seems I got interrupted in the middle of it. So I’m standing there like I’m stupid, or I got knocked flat on my back, but the glow animation still took place as though I finished the stomp. Alas, it can be quite frustrating.
To add onto that, I’ve noticed that stomping and Quickness are difficult to follow. Sometimes, my character stomps very quickly, but the glow goes at a normal rate. Sometimes, the stomp is successful when my character finishes, but other times, it succeeds only when the glow finishes. And yet, even at other times, even after both finish, the stomp completely fails for no apparent reason.

7. While it may not be UI specific, is there any way to use a single button and differentiate between stomping a downed enemy and reviving a downed ally when they are so close together? Which should be the priority is always situational. Maybe tapping the key can revive, while holding the key can stomp.

Being unpredictable is a trait, not a role. Being an assassin means you are extremely lethal in single combat when you do catch an opponent unaware. Post-patch, the Thief is not lethal enough to take on the role of assassin.

In a team fight, other professions are much more lethal and durable than the current Thief. Can the Thief assist? Yes. That hardly makes it lethal.

As for (de)capping, it is a chore, not a role. It takes everyone the same amount of time to do. The Thief just has one skill that allows it to get there a little faster. It is mop-up duty. Does it have to be done? Yes. Does that make the Thief so powerful? Not at all. It’s putting lipstick on a pig. Other professions can actually hold points or contest them.

Yes, you can point to one of the greatest players in the game. Whatever he may do does not make the Thief any more lethal than it is. And that is really the point of the original post. The current Thief is inferior in a team fight compared to other professions including +1 engagements.

Decapping is an absolute non-combat task in a combat-centric game. It’s the equivalent of having a new profession called the Hacker whose “role” is to sit in spawn and cause the other team to lag and be disconnected.

That is the state of the Thief right now. Performing one “role” that a cowardly, unarmed NPC could do, and another that is much better left to many other peofessions.

ronpierce.2760:

You played a thief and are upset that your best role is adding pressure for your distracting buddies? Think about how thief has worked in previous games. What do you expect? It IS a role, whether you like the role or not.

Ok, let’s think of it this way…

The original Legend of Zelda. At the very beginning of the game, you are given a wooden sword. Now, you advance through the game and find new, more powerful swords.
Now, let’s say that at the beginning of the game, you were given the choice between the wooden sword and the most powerful sword in the game. What is the role of the wooden sword? What is its purpose? Why would you choose it?

Any profession can add pressure. That’s not a Thief role.

Any profession can (de)cap a point. That’s not a Thief role.

Any profession can +1 a fight. That’s not a Thief role.

A true role is something that a given “class” is among the best at that contributes to the team’s goal.
Thieves are great at hiding and running away. But that doesn’t help the team accomplish its goal.
Thieves are great at dying. That doesn’t help the team accomplish its goal.

Let’s go back to another classic game: Dungeons and Dragons. You’d better have a healer to actively keep your party alive. You’d better have Rogue to find traps. You’d better have a tank to absorb damage. Every class can do one thing great or enough things good enough to get them through any given situation.

I would assume that the Thief in GW2 would find its main role as an assassin. A “glass cannon” roamer that can strike down a single target quickly and effectively, especially if catching the target unaware.

Unfortunately, the Thief is too much “glass” with a “cannon” that is relatively weak when compared with those of other professions. When a Thief can quickly burst anyone down except a full bunker build, that is when the Thief will truly have a role to play. Until then, it’s simply doing “chores,” not taking on roles that are suited for it.

Right now, the only thing a Thief does is stop the bleeding during a match. It’s not a nurse, it’s not a healer. The Thief has taken upon the role of “Band-Aid.”

kevvy.5081:

What’s this ‘plus 1’ mean anyway? Asking for a friend. :p

Engaging a fight that was already at even numbers.

You make a 1v1 into a 2v1. Or a 2v2 into a 3v2. Etc.

In other words, you always join a fight to give your team the advantage in numbers. You never join a fight to make it even. And you certainly never join a fight where you will be outnumbered.

style.6173:

This is part of my problem with thieves. They literally have no clue how to contribute to a team and are the biggest reason for the loss.

I think that is pretty much the entire issue in a nutshell. With the tools the Thief currently has available, how does it contribute to the team more than another profession could?

How does a bicycle contribute to getting an astronaut to the moon?

By him riding it to the launch pad where the rocketship is waiting. And even then, a car is more effective. But I would be willing to bet that the bicycle would much prefer to have some rockets and wings attached to it instead.

Shockwave.1230:

The main role a thief plays currently is using it’s mobility to +1 or decap.

See, I think that’s the issue. We are playing the squire while everyone else gets to be the knight.

“You polish my armor. You make the meals. You take care of the horses. You deliver this message. You bandage my wounds after the battle.”

You could say that the following are valid roles…

1. Do 50% of the amount of damage someone else can do.
2. Stand on empty spots if you can find them.
3. If you can’t find an empty spot or you see the enemy, then do this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTJ8iZr7ro

The problem with “+1” is that any “1” can do it. And others could probably do it better.

The first problem with (de)capping an empty point is that it’s a passive “role.”
The second problem is that anybody else could do the same. In fact, not only could they (de)cap a point, they could also hold it better.

Really, the only advantage a Thief has in either of the two “roles” is the seconds-shaving Infiltrator’s Arrow. If any other profession had it, why even bring a Thief? Actually, why not bring a perma-Swiftness Engineer instead? Or even trade the role in for yet another Elementalist to hold points instead of (de)cap and leave?

I’ve asked this question once before, but I’ll ask it again. If a Ranger’s pet could (de)cap a point and be sent across the map to do so, would the Ranger replace the Thief in the meta?

I think I’m starting to feel like a poor, little Doorbreaker in Stronghold. Run from spawn to the outer gate. Blow up gate. Run to the inner gate. Blow up gate. Run to the enemy Lord. Die.
All while being chased and slaughtered by everyone else.

Sunflowers.1729:

You’re missing the point completely – I still kill people 1v1 in WvW all the time. In T1 NA, where the roamers are pretty good (usually). Sometimes I do it solo, sometimes in a small group of 2-3. And it’s not just me, you still see tons of Thieves dominating people because they figured out the proper builds to do so. Basically we aren’t weak, you just haven’t figured out how to adapt to the patch, either through playstyle or build.

I don’t think that was quite my point. For background info, I started out playing a lot of WvW. In fact, I played it more than PvE when I was leveling up. The only real reason I did PvE was to rank up to 80 so I’d have more of a shot in WvW. I finally started to get the hang of doing a lot of damage. I wanted to become a great lone roamer. So I was always looking for an isolated enemy to ambush. Unfortunately, it took me so long to find them, that it become quite boring. I didn’t mind the wait, but the issue was I wanted to practice my fighting skills. Because of that, I ended up moving to PvP with the intention of moving back to WvW as a much more capable fighter. So I haven’t actually touched WvW since a while before the patch (except to kill a dolyak or capture a ruin for dailies). I’ve been strictly PvP for combat practice.

What I was saying about roaming, however, is that it doesn’t really accomplish anything. It’s mainly for kicks. Soloing a camp is more beneficial to the team. But even to be a successful roamer, a thief has to use its advantages to cover for its disadvantages. That means surprise, stealth, and escape.

Yes, the Thief can be much deadlier in WvW compared to PvP, but so can everything else. The goal remains to bully the weak and isolated targets while avoiding getting hit by powerful and multiple targets. But again, the reason why the Thief is capable of being a successful roamer is because it can remain hidden in order ambush the enemy or escape if needed.

Sunflowers.1729:

Also, not being able to 1v1 doesn’t even mean everything. Let’s take LoL or Dota as an example. Some characters are unable to 1v1 anybody but are still #1 priority in every game because of how strong they are in certain facets. Similarly bunker Guardian isn’t going to kill anybody but they can hold a point for ages.

Being able to both 1v1 (even better than we can right now) and decap would permanently seal in the current meta of always having one thief in every pvp team, because why take any other class which can “1v1” you but doesn’t also have the super fast decapping potential? Even now you see Thief is more popular than Mes in competitive games.

I think that’s the thing. The bunker Guardian isn’t supposed to be able to kill things, but it can still kill Thieves relatively easy. We are just too fragile. I started out with the new patch running a DA/CS/T build with the Assassin amulet. I could hit HARD. But I still couldn’t hit hard enough to fight on point. I’m even a heathen Thief, I ran with Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger, so if one style wasn’t working, I would switch to the other in mid fight. That had more success, but I still couldn’t hit hard enough to take out some bunkers, but they could take me out in 2 or 3 hits.

Currently, I’ve moved to a CS/SA/T Marauder build. My sustainability has improved, but my damage has decreased. I still get 3-shot a lot, but my problem of late has been conditions. 4 of 5 utilities remove a condition or more. 1 of my weapon skills removes a condition. Staying in stealth removes conditions. But when going 1v1 against a Guardian or Elementalist, I can’t clear the Burning fast enough. Against Mesmers, it’s Confusion that’s the problem. And against bunkers? Well, let’s just say I feel like I’m punching a brick wall… that punches back like Mike Tyson.

As for the superior decapping ability, that’s due to the mobility of the Shortbow. The reason it’s meta is because it’s the only thing a Thief CAN do better than others. That’s the problem. I can’t even trade in mobility for lethality or decent survivability. At least before the patch, I could decently hold a point 1v2 with a Sword/Dagger “bunker” build. Now, not so much. The Thief’s defenses went down while those of other professions went up, and they also gained a lot of damage output.

My gripe isn’t that a Thief can’t go 1v1 in a fair fight against any given opponent. It’s more that a Thief can’t even use dirty, unfair, sneaky tactics combined with skillful play to beat an equally skilled player who is using certain builds on point… or even off point sometimes.

I’ve heard the Thief being called a “Burst or Die” class. In my observation, it’s more of a “Burst AND Die” class… depending on the target. The “glass cannon” is just too glassy and without enough gunpowder.

Hmm, here’s something to ponder. If a Ranger’s pet could (de)cap a point and could be sent across the map to do so, would the Ranger overtake the Thief in the meta? In other words, could an entire profession be replaced by mindless AI moving from point to point?

EDIT: The new Stronghold game mode is a breath of fresh air. Thieves are still squishy as can be, but we aren’t forced on point. I kind of wish all points in Conquest were the size of the Graveyard in Legacy of the Foefire. Swords and Shortbow Thieves would be so much more capable of fighting on point then.

One rating system that may be interesting would be to add percentages to the 3 trait choices at each tier.

33/33/33 would be completely equal trait values.

50/50/0 would mean two are equal, while one is absolutely useless.

100/0/0 would be an absolute no-brainer in any situation.

Of course, I doubt there are many 100% traits for use at all times, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see some near zero!

Sunflowers.1729:

Oh yes, of course. My point is that the best Thief build (D/P + SB) is still competitive with the top builds of other classes (e.g. D/D ele). And the reason why I bring up WvW roaming is that it shows the actual potential of the class.

In PvP, there is no reason to try to 1v1 people. You can, sure, but it’s usually better to just go +1 a point since you have the best mobility. But when roaming in WvW, you have to fight because there are no circles to capture (well except like guards, but that’s seldom the case). If people still use Thieves there, then it means that they aren’t ‘crap’ like this forum likes to claim, but in fact still very good and even top tier at things that are not decapping - such as actually fighting someone.

I don’t know about that. What’s really the point in roaming? It’s kind of like being a very weak and scared bully at school. Choose your fights VERY carefully. And only pick on the defenseless when they are alone. But if someone stands up to a bully and punches them in the nose, there’s really no course left to take other than to run away.

The reason for Thief and Mesmer roamers is because of stealth and mobility. They can hide and run away. Great for world exploration and scouting, but not much else. Kind of like running around in Minecraft picking on zombies. There’s no real purpose.

But in PvP, not being able to 1v1 on point in a combat-centric game feels like a pretty bad spot to me. Either let me be able to sustain a fight or have the capability to end it in one skillful burst. If I’m really supposed to just decap points when they are empty, then give me some unarmed capture-drones to fly around the map while I’m sitting near my spawn.

From what I’ve seen in PvP post-patch, damage has gone through the roof for everyone. That makes Thieves feel even squishier than before, especially with conditions like Burn and Confusion. It also feels like the Thief’s damage potential did not keep up with other professions’ defensive increases. It’s a “glass cannon” vs. “steel cannons.”

Just a few ideas from me…

Traits

Trapper’s Respite:
Remove the ICD. Or make it 9 seconds. It’s already gated by the heal’s cooldown. It gets annoying to know whether or not I need to aim my Withdraw.

Revealed Training:
Grant Resistance and Stability on Revealed. Remove the increase Power if you wish. Give the trait some actual meaning to its name. Or even allow backstabs from non-stealthed Thieves if attacking from the back.

Baseline

Give Thieves a 15-25% movement speed increase. A slow thief is a dead thief.

Since the initiative pool is shared between weapons, give thieves (near)instant weapon swap. Many use Shortbow for utility instead of damage anyway. A few code checks can prevent sigils and weapon-swap traits from being abused. And if you must, make this a trait-based feature with Quick Pockets.

As mentioned before, give Thieves some big damaging attacks without having to stealth or combo or get rooted. Attacking from the rear should get a significant damage bonus when not in stealth. If not every skill, at least give us Backstab.

Go ahead and make Thieves the “assassin” class. We are already made of paper. Other professions can already out-damage us. Give us (traited if not baseline) the ability to ignore defenses. Protection, Resistance, Stability, Aegis have no effect against Thief attacks. A Warrior that’s rampaging or enduring pain cannot escape its fate from the Master of Death.

Quality of Life

For the sake of all that is good and right in the world, give us on-screen indicators of trait/rune/sigil cooldowns please! I want to know when my next Panic Strike or Hard to Catch or Flanking Strikes is going to proc. I need to know when Merciful Ambush is going to stealth my ally in a Courtyard match and when it will not.

Reasoning

Post-patch, the Thief is playing catch-up with everybody else. There’s no sense in being as fragile as we are without having compensation. Why be a “glass cannon” when others can be “steel cannons?” It doesn’t make sense for a Thief to NOT be able to go head-to-head against any given profession. Who said we are supposed to be decappers and +1er’s? I may not be able to sustain a fight on point, but I should have the capability to burst someone down who’s sitting on a point. If he defends against the burst, he wins. If he doesn’t, I win.

Ok, I’d best stop there before I bring in a trait like “Ninja Training” that decreases all condition damage by 50%.

Thank you for sharing the build and the video! :-)

If I may ask out of curiosity, though, what makes Deadly Arts better than Critical Strikes in this instance? I actually tried DA with SA and Trickery before, but I changed to CS/SA/T because I didn’t feel like I was doing enough damage. Maybe it was just a misleading feeling?

Brew Pinch.5731:

Does hell have to freeze over before fresh faced forumite’s come to the realisation that in refusing to carry cleanse it follows that their build is bad?

And what’s a thief supposed to do? 4 of my 5 utilities remove a condition. 3 of 5 have reduced cooldowns. One of my weapon skills removes a condition. Sitting in stealth for three seconds removes a condition.

In other words, I bring condition removal. But I still find myself not being able to outlast several builds. Their defense is too high for my attacks, while their damage is too high for my health. I’m even using the Marauder amulet.

I don’t know about today, but I went into overtime yesterday. It actually went a full 5 minutes into overtime before the game ended. It was stressful because we had a big lead… and the other team kept scoring points. We ended up winning 370 to 355. It was INTENSE! :-D

Ps. Yes, that is a negative 5 minutes on the scoreboard :-P

Meryn.6875:

As far as I know, stealth is capped at 14 (15?) seconds.

I know I’ve had my thief up to at least 19 seconds of stealth. Maybe I need to do some more testing :-P

EDIT:
Yes, it seems I’m capped at 19 seconds. But that may be due to the stack limit, not the duration limit. With Shadow Arts, I hit the 19 second cap with Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Hide in Shadows, and Steal.

2nd EDIT: It may be 20 seconds, but by the time I get my cursor over the Stealth icon, it says 19.

Hmm, that makes me curious, is there a maximum number of Stealth stacks allowed?

Reece.7341:

If we remove on demand stealth without having a target and limit it to utilities, we could really open up more room for buffs to stealth lines and utilities to improve thief build diversity (Strictly from a PvP perspective).

I think this way of thinking depends way too much on Anet’s ability to balance things. Sadly, I don’t have the confidence needed in them at this time.

That makes more sense, thank you!
I think I was applying the formula for heals instead of the one for damage.

Do you know if there’s any documentation of DPS for each skill somewhere? That seems like it would be quite interesting.

Hmm, I just looked at the numbers for Heartseeker. If I got the numbers right, it seems to barely outperform Shadow Shot even on targets above 50% health. Below 50%, only Pistol Whip beats it, and below 25%, it’s far better than Pistol Whip.

I understand that spamming Heartseeker is considered “noobish,” but it looks like the most bang for your buck. Is there a reason to not just hit “2” other than it’s predictable?

I was confused why that happens. Thanks. I guess it won’t hurt to spam the Roll for Initiative key several times :-P

3rd time trying to get this to post

Ok, it is way too late for me to do math, but after comparing the numbers, can I get a confirmation of this?

Per initiative spent, Shadow Shot outperforms a Black Powder/Heartseeker/Backstab combination even if all three skills hit, correct?

Above that, a Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike combination outdoes Shadow Shot by a large margin at higher powers?

And further still, Pistol Whip causes significantly more damage than Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike?

I was wondering why things died faster when I switch to Sword/Dagger over Dagger/Pistol. I guess I now know why! Maybe I’ll have to try Sword/Pistol soon! :-P

I’ve been having a tough time consistently escaping stuns before it’s too late.

Right now, I’m running with Withdaw, Roll for Initiative, and Shadwstep, and I have the Trickster trait.

When I see purple chains, I hit Withdraw as quickly as I can. When I see I’ve been knocked down, I hit Roll for Initiative. But sometimes, I’m not exactly sure what my status is in the middle of a team fight due to so many effects and players.

There are times when a thief hits me with Basilisk Venom. I try to be quick with Roll for Initiative, but I find myself still frozen in place. Is that supposed to happen? It seems the only failsafe option is to use Shadowstep, but I try to save it for condi-cleansing.

What am I doing wrong? Does Sleight of Hand keep me from using stun breaks?

Thanks! :-D

Good day, fellow scallywags! I’m back with another “L2P” post! The topic this time: Chill and its use for Thieves.

The first question I have is how exactly does Chill work? Pretty much playing nothing but a thief (and also not knowing how to chill myself on demand), I’m not sure how/when Chill affects other professions.

I know it slows a player by 66%. I know it slows a skill’s recharge by 66%. However, must a skill be recharging in order for Chill to have effect on it? If I open with a strike that chills before the opponent can do anything, does Chill affect their recharges? Is the same true for Elementalist’s attunements?

I’m currently trying a build with more of an emphasis on sustain than insta-kill. I have the following for PvP…

Marauder amulet
Rune of the Ice
Dagger/Pistol with Sword/Dagger sets both with Sigils of Ice and Hydromancy

It seems I have the potential to cause Chill for 5.2 seconds out of every 10, plus an Ice Nova every 30 seconds from getting hit.

Does anyone have advice for the best time to weapon swap to apply the Sigil of Hydromancy’s Chill effect?

I’m also thinking of adding Ice Drake Venom to the mix just to add to the silliness of it all! :-D

I was just playing around with an older build to see if it works post-patch. And this does not use Trapper’s Runes, so you can run it in sPvP if you want to troll :-P

If I payed attention to my cooldowns, I could stay permanently stealth using this as my bare minimum…

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-g3RV;1Rw-_0M5;9;9KM;114Z

Dagger/Pistol

Shadow Arts:
Concealed Defeat
Meld with Shadows
Hidden Thief

Trickster:
Kleptomaniac
Preparedness

Heal:
Hide in Shadows

Utility:
Shadow Refuge

It cuts close, but it’s doable. In order to get more time, I usually use the Smoke Screen utility in order to get more Heartseeker stealthing instead of Black Powder from the pistol.

In fact, after some more testing, I managed to stay permanently stealthed using only Steal, Hide in Shadows, and Smoke Screen + Cluster Bomb with a shortbow.

If you add other traits like Sleight of Hand (in conjunction with Hidden Thief) and Cloaked in Shadow (if you can find a place to take falling damage), that would give you more stealth up-time without sacrificing utilities. Or you could add Blinding Powder to your utility bar.

Doing damage while permanently stealthed is not easy, though. You’re limited to the Uncatchable (Caltops on dodge) and Trapper’s Respite (Needle Trap on heal) traits, runes effects, and non-direct- damaging utilities (traps, Caltrops, Thieves Guild, etc.).

It certainly isn’t a killing machine, but it can be VERY annoying. All the enemy sees are red circles of varying sizes… and long, rectangular outlines for Smoke Screen and tripped traps. It’s especially nice to run Ambush or Thieves Guild and have visible thieves take their attention while you run around freely :-P

Ps. There are other tweaks and enhancements you can run on the build to make it even better and easier, but the above is the basis. You could use something like this to be very annoying…

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-g3RV;1Rw-_0M5oOkd0;9;4KMI;0147047237;4UZk68;1fgm9fgm91h

PPs. You could replace Thieves Guild with Basilisk Venom simply to trigger the Krait Rune’s 6th effect more often, though you will never actually strike the opponent.

HAPPY TROLLING!!! :-D

MADAIR.1948:

Just wanted to reply to the quotes about no damage. The fights just a little while ago went like this….black powder, black powder, black powder, shadow refuge, blinding powder, Backstab (8.7k), I shadow step, he steals+ plus heartseeker (interupt 2k + 7.5k) I’m down, his improv procc’d from steal and he pops refuge ontop of me and stomps me. Vs the mesmer…stealth, chime sounds….10 secs pass by…hmmm guess he’s not gonna figh-BOOM downed. So while I agree that in pvp you can’t cap, when I’m harrassing a point and you can do 18k in about 1.2 seconds and down me…I have to disagree heavily. Yes they do no damage in stealth, technically anyway, it sure seemed like the mesmer did…I pretty much drop dead in a split second and if they fail it’s back into to stealth they go.

I think the issue there is that it was one stealth class versus another. If one thief stealths, the best counter for the other thief is to stealth also. Again, stealth is the thief’s main defensive tool. If a thief doesn’t use stealth against another thief, he’s at a severe disadvantage… simply because the offensive thief can hit so hard and the defensive thief is so squishy.

I run D/P and S/D. When I fight thieves, I usually start out with D/P stealth. If the initial clash goes against me, I may switch to S/D and use evasion and immobilization to my advantage, hopefully, throwing them off their game. I’m not great with D/P, so I assume they’ll have the advantage if I use the same. Sometimes, I win, sometimes, I lose. But I think fighting a fellow thief is probably the most fun… because it’s like a mix between a high-speed chess match and a hand of Texas Hold’em poker… because I can’t see what he’s doing most of the time :-P

But I would think a thief being able to spam stealth versus a non-stealth profession is somewhat needed… with some professions being extremely lethal. High skill is great, but without solid basics to rely on (skilled stealth vs. spammed stealth), some fights can get way out of hand in today’s game.

Kocoff.7582:

MADAIR that paragraph with the example you gave felt like an action movie. Even as reading it, it did feel very fun and rewarding

I think that is kind of the issue. Some people want “Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Online.” Basically, a tactical gameplay with high skill level. Unfortunately, with the nature of being an online computer game, that is far beyond our current technology.

Being able to interrupt an enemy heal or deadly skill is great, but you can’t base a game around it. You have to consider latency among other things. There has to be other methods to succeed. In fact, it makes me question how people think when they say Headshot should have a 1/4 – 1/2 second cast time… because doing so may make it impossible to skillfully interrupt anything but the longest of casting skills.

It’s not that I disagree with having “high-skill” gameplay, but that’s not really what this game was designed for. The balance for such is not there. In some places, there’s too much reward for not enough risk, and in others, not enough reward for too much risk.

At this point in time, I would not want the thief to lose ANY of its remaining defensive abilities. There’s simply too much damage and danger from the rest of the professions.

If “low-skill” tactics like spamming stealth can’t be effective in a “high-skill” environment, I don’t understand what the problem is. It’s like trying to remove the ability to use the “4-move checkmate” from chess.

When stealth-spamming allows a thief to effectively engage and defeat a bunker-build on point at the higher-tiers, then you’d have reason to start being concerned. Though I would say that is still fine. When it allows a thief to engage and defeat two bunkers on point, then that’s more of a reason to seek changes.

But really, why make the thief so weak when other professions are so strong? Unless they completely change the way stealth works, it does very little offensively. It’s a defensive mechanic. It allows the thief to fight a war of attrition.

Whatever the case, it’s not a game based on 1v1. It’s a team game. Thieves die quickly in team fights… especially if they have to be close enough to poke somebody to gain stealth.

I’d like the thief to be stronger while not in stealth. I want more survivability. And any buffs to stealth or non-stealth are great. But I think there would be a lot of tears if the thief gets buffs without nerfs… or even buffs with nerfs. I’m fine with tears… unless they’re mine :-P

Like I said, sadly, I don’t remember the details.

I am pretty sure it wasn’t a clone or too many players. I tracked its position from the time it disappeared to the time it reappeared.

The only thing I can think of that I know exists is the engineer’s shrinking mode, though I don’t remember seeing anything on the ground except the target circle. But I can’t even remember what professions they were.

I suppose I’ll have to keep my eyes open in the future :-)

Thank you, though!

This is something I’ve been wondering for a while. Sadly, I can’t remember the details, but it certainly confused me.

There have been a few times when I’ve been targeting an enemy, and they disappear (I’m assuming stealth, but I could be wrong), however the red target marker (I can’t remember if it’s the normal marker or the “called target” marker) remains above their head, and follows them around. Several seconds later, they reappear exactly where that target marker was.

I don’t believe they turned into mist form or simply shrunk, though I could be mistaken.

I’m curious if anyone else has experienced this… or if it’s some kind of mechanic that I’m unaware of. Thanks! :-D

Thanks! I’m looking forward to giving it a go… as soon as my lag leaves :-P

Oops, sorry about that. Edited the post to include build.

And I also read this about the Air sigil being bugged to have a 5 second cooldown instead of a 3 second one.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Help-please-Sigil-of-Air-vs-Sigil-of-Blood

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Air

Edit: I don’t know if PvP’s Air sigil is bugged also, or if it is different than a normal Superior Sigil of Air for PvE/WvW.

This is the current build I’m using for PvP. Which sigils would you guys suggest I take?

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-g3RF3;0Vw-_0K5sOFd0;9;4IJM;0248246147;4INl3L;1jzyvjzyv_0I

I’ve been using Air and Fire for both sets. But I just looked into Blood and Strength.

I love Fire because it shows me where stealthed enemies are when I hit them.

I was thinking of replacing Air, though.

Because I only have 1,936 power, I was thinking of using Blood since it ignores the target’s armor, and it also heals me for 500+ when it procs… and I only have 12k health to begin with.

I was also thinking of using Strength for my Dagger/Pistol (the Sword is too slow to stack the might). But I’m not sure if I would be getting enough hits constantly to make up for the loss of Air.

I’m going to try out Fire and Blood to see if I notice any difference. Sadly, it seems that Blood’s damage/healing doesn’t show up in the combat log, so it’s more difficult to get numbers on paper.

Thanks again! :-D

Thanks, guys! :-)

Does Sigil of Blood do damage even when you are at full health? Or do you have to have damage before it procs so it can steal health?

Well, you do have to admit, it’s a cute name, right?

Jitters the Troll

I just wanna hug it and squeeze it. So fluffy!!! :-D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8EFVDq0crs

YOUNGaz.5690:

OP, how DARE you use any weapon skills other than #1 to do damage, let alone using a skill properly on <%50 HP players. tisk tisk -_-

So sorry! My mouth was watering! I was drooling too kitten the 2 key! :-D

22222222222

This is something I’ve been curious about for a while. When a Necromancer enters Death Shroud, he gains a second health bar (I’m assuming, I’ve never played Necro). But thieves have many traits and such based on an enemy’s health threshold. How does that work against Death Shroud?

For example, if a Thief bursts a Necro down to 15% natural health, then the Necro enters Death Shroud, what is the Necro’s health percentage according to Thief mechanics?

Would a Heartseeker do damage based on >50% health or <25%?
Would Unrelenting Strikes or an unused Panic Strike proc?

Many thanks! :-D

Ps. Also, are the above traits/attacks affected by the health percentage of a “downed” healthbar?

Hmmm, I do usually end up throwing an extra Heartseeker or two more than I need. Partially because the health bar looks funny when it transitions to a downstate, and partially because I still haven’t gotten used to the “queuing” of attacks… it seems the worst with Heartseeker and Flanking Strike.

So yeah, sorry, downed people! You just look so juicy when I discover you’re squishy! I can’t seem to control myself!

Ps. The worst situation I can think of is when I get a ranger down to 10-20%…. and my Heartseekers throw 0’s. So sad! :-(

Ok, so… what else am I supposed to do when my opening Backstab combo takes an opponent under 50% health? Sing him a lullaby?

I end up getting remarks like…

“Heartseeker me some more”
or
“CENSORED heartseeker spam”

Usually, those remarks are coming from the downed/dead position. I’ve usually got Quickness, so my Revealed may not even be gone yet. Do people even know how Heartseeker’s damage progression works?

Jitters.9401:

What I am starting to think is that the regular masses who play fairly do not know the forums exist, but the ones who play in a fashion where there is no fair play are the ones using the forums. Just to try to distract anet from the truth.

Ahem……
“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.”

Ps. I run D/P, but haven’t touched Shadow Arts since before the patch, so your facts aren’t really factual.

PPs. I also suspect troll activity around here.

SlayerSixx.5763:

You down the Ele, he runs off to heal up. He ran off and you’re now OOC, so you’ve just been healed up too. Get to work smashing w.e is between you and your goal. Ele comes back sooner than you expected? Down them again, only they’ve got less downstate HP to work with and really, you should’ve pulled the fight away from the door if you didn’t want them constantly running off after a hard earned kill.

I mean, eles can run off, but necros can straight instagib you from downstate. How about getting into a downed fight with a ranger or warrior? Everyone has their perks lol.

I was attempting to defend door breakers at the gate. There was no pulling him away from the gate.

And yes, as a thief, downing an opponent is only half the fight. I’ve learned to not get anywhere near a downed enemy while I’m low on health….especially a necro or ranger.

I don’t mind the mist form, but the ability to travel through a gate when downed, that’s a bit too much. That makes an elementalist virtually unkillable as a defender in Stronghold matches. It shouldn’t be difficult to change. Just have a “downed” check when entering the gate.