The other day in a stronghold match, my thief dueled an elementalist near his inner gate. I was trying to clear the way for doorbreakers. A few times throughout the match, he would retreat inside the gates to reset. This time, however, I managed to down him outside the gate. I was working on a stomp, and then it happened…. he used his mist form to retreat inside the gate so he could heal up.
That may be normal, I don’t know. All I know is that it caught me by surprise because whenever I’ve been downed outside a gate in WvW, I’ve used my ability to shadowstep to the gate’s doorway. However, instead of transporting me inside the walls, I just reappear against the wall where the doorway is….with the doorway in the center of my body.
Perhaps elementalists can always use gates when downed, I don’t know. Perhaps my thief could use a gate in stronghold, but not in WvW. I simply don’t know. But if the elementalist can while the thief cannot, I would say that’s a rather unfair advantage. I don’t mind unfairness, but it would seem that a thief should always be the beneficiary of unfair advantages….after all, it’s called a thief for a reason :-P
Way too much work, we dont have cds and are initiative based, they’d have to design a new skillset for this to work properly outside our normal stealth skills. Unfortunately won’t happen. Thief is in such a @#$* state, you have to pick 2v1s with teammate or run and cap points, you’re outclassed simple due to all the invuls and survival mechanics other classes have over thieves.
Ah, I don’t know. I wouldn’t mind being able to use stealth skills (Backstab, etc.) for 6 seconds straight. That alone would be a nice feature for an elite utility. Basically, just flip the “stealth switch” on for 6 seconds. Shouldn’t be much work. The Stability, Protection, and Resistance are just a bonus to make it more survivable.
Hehe, here’s even another bonus to throw into the mix… infinite dodges while the effect is active. Other professions have complete invulnerability, so why would this be too much? Plus, it would mean the thief can/must choose between being aggressive (backstabing, etc.) and defensive (dodging).
Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection. Refills Endurance. Dodges use no Endurance during the duration of this effect.
I wonder what people would think of me if I weren’t a thief. I get some crazy lag going on… I’m sure I look like a pinball.
Lag, it is the one enemy I cannot fight. And it also turns me into either a sitting duck… or an unstoppable killing machine. I’m never sure which until the dust settles :-P
Instead of the “Elite” skills we have now i would like to see a Elite skill that for a short period of time, lets the thief use the number 1 key stealth ability outside of stealth.
This skill would be instant and have a few seconds duration.
Should have a noticable effect like black smoke aura on the thief to let other players know you are using the elite so they can have a chance at stunning you or use evasive actions.
Oh, I like it! Semi-stealth state…
Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection.
Basically, you are visible, though you are using stealth mechanics. The Revealed effect should be applied for the entirety of the skill so you cannot enter true stealth. However, that does mean that Revealed Training will apply if traited. The traits from Shadow Arts would also be active (if chosen) as well as any other stealth trait (Hidden Killer, Fleet Shadow).
This is my personal build that I’ve been running for a little while, and having a lot of fun with it, especially in Stronghold matches.
Why is it an “outcast” build? Because it is taboo in four areas…
1: No Shortbow
2: No Shadowstep
3: No Mug
4: No Bountiful Theft
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-g3RF3;0Vw-_0K5sOFd0;9;4IJM;0248246147;4INl3L;1jzyvjzyv_0I
Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and Trickery.
Assassin’s amulet for precision (I’m running about 71% base, though the site says 77%).
Air/Fire sigils on both weapon sets for extra damage as well as indication if I hit stealthed enemies.
Runes of the Traveler for +25% movement speed and +15% boon duration.
Dagger/Pistol for stealth and powerful bursts for direct fighting and surprise attacks.
Sword/Dagger for teleports, evasion, and boon-ripping for sustained fighting.
One thing I like about not using Mug is that I can steal and remain stealthed. Trapper’s Respite comes in handy on Stronghold. Heroes seem to run right through my Basilisk Venom, but the Needle Trap and Sword can stop a hero in its tracks with Immobilize.
Trickster gives Withdraw, Haste, and the Flanking Strikes trait condition removal as well as shorter cooldowns. I did have Shadowstep originally, then tried Roll For Initiative, but I’m liking the benefits of Haste.
Yes, it is a squishy build. 12k health. But it hits pretty hard, and has more sustain than a signet build (at least for me). The survivability goes up when not required to fight on point, thus Stronghold helps.
After the patch, I thought I’d use the Marauder amulet mainly (I have a similar build for it), but Assassin’s is growing on me. Have fun! :-D
Ps. Haste is Love <3
As a very squishy thief, the only kind of “taunt” I want is to make one enemy attack another enemy. Hmm, is there a condition that causes the enemy to have pity on me?
while squishy as kitten they have tons of ways to avoid damage
The greatest secret thieves have to avoid damage…. never leave the spawn area ;-)
Oops… you didn’t hear it from me! :-P
Just curious… why does Trapper’s Respite need a cooldown at all? It’s already restricted by the heal’s cooldown. It’s not like a needle trap is so overpowered anyway.
Thank you much! :-)
I usually go into evasive mode when I see “0’s” pop up against a ranger. I’ll try to CnD him or his pet next time.
Thanks, guys! Really helpful! :-)
Wow, so much to learn!
If I may ask this also… can an offhand dagger Cloak and Dagger off of any of these? I know I’ve tried it with some, but to no avail. I just can’t seem to keep track of which.
When the patch first hit, I was having fun messing around with some of the traits. So…
Deadly Arts: Trapper’s Respite + Deadly Trapper
Trickster: Flanking Strike + Trickster
Withdraw (trick): Heals every 14 1/2 seconds and leaves a Needle Trap (24 sec ICD, 5 stacks of vulnerability and 5 stacks of might when activated) and cures a condition.
Haste (trick): Cures a condition
Flanking Strike (trick): Cures a condition (supposedly)
That sounds like my build, how do your hits feel with Traveler Runes compared to The Pack?
I don’t use Pack runes unless I need the power and precision. It’s great to have, but then I usually use the Signet of Shadow to make up for the lost speed. I actually don’t think I have any means of swiftness in my build, and I don’t want to rely on getting hit, haha!
I’m not saying I have the greatest build, but I do love my speed. It gets me in and out of places a lot easier. I can run targets down, and also outrun them usually. And with the Haste utility being only positive now, I find it too good to give it up for a signet.
As for the damage output, I haven’t played enough with both to compare. I still hit hard, especially with the Quickness boon. I’d say it’s more dependent on what the target’s defenses are. I just know that speed helps me survive, so I end up able to deal out more damage than I would if I were dead :-P
Hello again! This is yet another L2P thread by yours truly! :-)
So, I’ve been running Sword/Dagger and Shortbow in PvP since the patch. Usually with the Marauder amulet, though I gave Barbarian a try… 24k health <3
Deadly Arts: Mug + Panic Strike + Executioner
Critical Strikes: Flawless Strike + Practiced Tolerance + No Quarter
Trickery: Flanking Strike + Trickster + Sleight of Hand
Withdraw + Shadow Refuge + Haste + Shadowstep + Basilisk Venom
I can usually hold my own in a 1v1. The issue comes whenever I burst a foe to low health, then they pop a defensive skill. “0” or “Blocked” or “Invulnerable” messages start to fly everywhere. I attempt to dodge/evade while still throwing in attacks to see when they can be damaged again.
Unfortunately, many times, another enemy arrives before I can finish off the first guy. Or I take too much damage that I have to Shadow Refuge and escape.
What is the key to counter such defenses? What are the quickest Sword/Dagger attacks/skills to down an opponent? The new haste gives me the speed, I’m sure, but what attacks allow me to maximize that DPS?
Thank you much! :-D
hmm i tried shadow arts instead of acro but honestly i dunno where you friend is pulling run speed from?
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m using Runes of the Traveler which gives me a permanent 25% movement increase. I’ve used them for a few weeks, but this patch seems to make them even more important… at least, in PvP. It also frees up a slot on my utility bar so I don’t need Signet of Shadows.
Ps. I’m running Sword/Dagger with Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and Trickery… having a whole lot of fun with the Flanking Strike + Trickster traits! :-D
That must have been changed at some point b/c in the readup stream they state that the 5% is being added to the dagger dual wield skills.
I believe it’s actually all dual-wield skills, not just daggers. So Unload should also have the 5% increase… I think :-P
Then I misunderstood what the notes said, or the notes I was seeing didn’t match what was said in the stream (couldn’t watch it). yuck on that then.
In the video, they said the original Dagger Training’s 5% damage was going to be baseline. Since then, I’ve seen or heard nothing about it. Only the 5% from the original Combined Training trait has been officially baselined.
I was hoping for the 5% for daggers also, though I don’t know if it was included, missed, or reconsidered.
Thief:
Wow yeah, high risk but D/P backstab is kittenedly strong now and will asplode any zerker enemy in less than 2 seconds. Too bad the missed BS causing reveal wasn’t kept.
I’m not exactly sure what the problem is. Perhaps thieves are just using Deadly Arts and Critical Strikes together because Shadow Arts and Acrobatics got nerfed/bugged. That plus the new haste can account for the speed of death. That’s just synergy between the trait lines, though. Not really any specific thing is overpowered when isolated.
And as far as I’m aware, Backstab is the same as long as you use a main-hand dagger. A D/D combo would probably hit even harder than a D/P combo, though.
*Trickster trait applying twice to Flanking Strikes (ICD going from 60s to 36s, 40% reduction instead of 20%)
But… that’s a feature, not a bug!
[Begins to cry]
Any news how medics run now post-patch? :-D
Or is it a death sentence with all of the damage going around? :-P
How many thieves you’ve seen that use no stealth at all?
I ran a no stealth build yesterday. The TEEF guild was supposed to have a big no-stealth event, but the whisper system seemed to be broken.
Running a sword/dagger and shortbow set, the only times I went into stealth were when I was stomping and when someone activated my Shadow Trap (which took the place of Shadow Refuge).
With Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and Trickery, I was pretty lethal. The new haste makes it so much deadlier.
Hmm, it worked for me on golems in Heart of the Mist. The most recent patch changed the way it worked because people were supposedly stacking HOURS of fury with auto-attacks. After the patch, it seemed to add 2 seconds to my fury duration as intended.
Dagger Training lets you Weaken multiple enemies easily. The Lotus Poison minor trait has a 10 second cooldown per target. Spread the poison, spread the weakness.
That’s quite interesting. Did you learn that through testing, or is it mentioned in release notes anywhere?
So after testing my build i came to see that currently the CD reduction on tricks (Trickster) in Trickery reduces Flanking strikes Haste by more than 20%.
Whispers
Umm, we know that. Please delete this thread before it attracts attention, ok? That’s why I haven’t spread the word ;-)
Besides, look at it as balancing the fact that there is a cooldown on Trapper’s Respite… or that the Acrobatics trait line is not as useful as it should be. Also, non-thieves will be happy because it gives us a reason to choose Trickster over Bountiful Theft.
Just smile, wink at Anet, and walk away whistling a happy tune! ;-)
You cannot “adapt” against a build that can take down a full bunker warrior in less time than it takes to press a stun breaker to begin reacting at all.
I’m curious what profession and build you play.
I’m a marauder Thief, and the only time I get insta-killed is when two or three enemies focus on me… or I jump into an AoE battle when I shouldn’t. Then again, I’ve only really ever played a thief, so maybe my reflexes have had to get faster.
Indeed, no sarcasm meant at all, but if you want to improve your reflexes and change the way you think, try out a thief. When you get accustomed to it, everything else feels like it’s in slow-motion.
Stealth should be more tactical, less spammable.
Being tactical is a good thing. But you can’t fix stupid. If a thief walks into your sword/hammer while he is in stealth, he’s going to eat that damage. No need for visual cues.
But another problem with visual cues on hit is AoE. They can be very difficult to avoid even in stealth. They are also very spammable. Besides, if you were to AoE yourself, a thief could not get to your back without you knowing it.
And thieves can spam stealth because it is their main method of defense. Dodges have been nerfed. Thieves get concealment instead of cover. Only Shadow Arts thieves get partial cover while in stealth. Of course, stealth is also the only way to get access to the high-level attacks like Backstab.
According to the patch notes, this bug has been fixed! :-D
Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have said anything ;-P
If you want to be viable as S/D currently, your forced to run shadow arts so u can sit in stealth and wait for endurance to regen naturally.
Try out Trickery instead. Flanking Strike + Trickster traits… and Haste utility.
I traded in my D/P for a shortbow about a week before the patch. And I stayed out of Acro so I would get used to not relying on dodge. DA/CS/Trick is causing enemies to drop like flies! ?
Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.
What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.
A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.
And the evidence to support this logic is where?
I want to see where these “good” thieves are hiding. I think you aren’t giving enough credit to those players. Of course, I may have misread your post… you may have meant that bad thieves apply pressure, while good thieves don’t die. Then again, my logic and yours are clearly not the same.
I’ve only run a few matches, but I’ve been using S/D and Shortbow.
Things seem to die VERY quickly… including me. I had to switch from the Assassin’s amulet to the Marauder pretty much instantly :-P
Flanking Strike makes me happy! And Haste has made its way onto my utility bar! :-D
Are we going to reschedule the s/d event? Whispers don’t seem to be working today, and most of the online members are not on guild chat.
That means it’s actually worth taking now. YAY!!! :-D
Go stack those poisons!!!
I’m just so happy to have it! :-D
I’ve been running S/D and Shortbow with Trapper’s Respite and Deadly Trapper. Along with Flanking Strike. I’m quite excited today! :-D
Just a thought. Since Sword/Dagger relies so much on dodges, and with the nerf to vigor, would it be better for Swindler’s Equilibrium to restore Endurance instead of reducing the recharge of Steal?
So that way, the QQ’ers will get what they want. They will be to always see us…. just might have troubles hitting.
Well, nobody’s going to stop me from stealthing without Shadow Arts… except engies and rangers :-P
It will be not be clear day 1 what is good and what isn’t.
Perhaps not, but it will be much clearer than the day before the release :-P
My advice… wait until tomorrow to decide! :-D
Ps. Also think about how much time you are going to dedicate to learning. I don’t know about the Engineer, but the Thief takes a LOT of time to improve skill-wise.
I hope Stealth and Revealed are included! :-)
Also, things like Infiltrator’s Return.
Does Backstab count as an auto-attack? :-P
Even those Dynasty Warriors folks don’t switch sides this brutally. :P
Hmm, let’s model ourselves after the Duck Dynasty folks instead. Grab your thief, put on some cammo, and let’s go huntin’! :-D
Ps. I hear the thief is getting a rifle, so the new Elite Specialization must be “RAGIN’ REDNECK” ;-)
If you enter a 1vs1 with your ally already in downstate, then trying to rez him instead of finishing the opponent will kill both of you.
I’ve definitely learned that through experience :-P
How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so?
No, I’m saying that no thief wants to get so low on health that the invulnerability procs. Neither do they want to lose ALL abilities except running away. It’s like an airbag in your car. It CAN save your bacon, but nobody wants it to be necessary. Thieves take it because they know that they’re so squishy, they’ll probably need it… even with stealth.
It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal.
I don’t use Vamp runes, but according to recent patch notes, Last Refuge isn’t supposed to proc with them. Whether or not it does, I do not know.
How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.
Remember, a thief can’t do anything while in Mist Form either… just try to run far enough away to escape oncoming doom. It procs without a moment’s notice. It is involuntary. Purely defensive and passive. It’s not as though a thief can see a powerful attack coming and go invulnerable. Other professions can.
Stealth is what allows thieves to survive. If used wisely, it can do so very well. But stealth is still only concealment, it isn’t cover… at least, not until tomorrow. Then it’s partial cover for Shadow Arts users.
As a thief, I support this idea. May the odds be ever in my favor! And if not, I’ll cheat :-P
As you said, you can make traps in an offensive use, but when you do which trait will compliment this play style — Mug or TR?
Mug wins by default with the current TR. Because I won’t be using traps on my utility bar. If I could lay a trap on heal, then I may very well pick TR over Mug. It may not be the best choice, but it is more viable than choosing TR and not using traps at all.
I believe that’s the point. Why would trappers pass 20% CDR over MUG?
I’m not a trapper. I don’t know how many trapper thieves there are. I’d actually be interested in knowing the percentage of thieves who will choose TR over Mug, though. I’d suggest it would be much higher if it laid a trap on heal, however.
I don’t know why you can’t see it. With the fix on Haste and Dagger’s cleave, you can apply and stack poisons in a short amount of time and deal more damage than Mug over all. Death Blossoms will be applying stacks Bleeds and Poisons.
Dagger Training offers 2 seconds of poison on a 2 second cooldown. Unless otherwise extended, that means one additional stack of poison at any given time. To maintain it permanently, you’d have to strike the opponent 3 times instantly the moment the cooldown wears off. Even then, it’s not guaranteed to proc. Again, that’s ONE stack of poison for this trait. One, one, and sadly, one.
Mug is a default choice. The other traits are for specialized builds.
Yes. Mug is the default choice. That’s the problem. If Trapper’s Respite laid a trap on heal, I could use it in a power build. If Dagger Training either applied more than one stack of poison, I could make an argument for taking it. But Mug is probably going to be the most used trait by far. And I’d prefer having a viable choice over having a choice made by default.
(if it was buffed to 5 it would probably be too OP again)
Would that be the case with the new stability change?
Btw! Why 6/6/0/0/6 instead of SA? I mean that would mean we’d have 0 access to condi removal (aside the healing skill and shadow step on relative big cooldowns)
This is just my opinion…
6/0/6/0/6 would be like it is now with the extra benefit Shadow Rejuvenation. A safe choice for those used to it.
6/6/0/0/6 should be harder hitting. And hopefully, the new Flanking Strike trait will give condi-removal through Haste. I just hope it’s on a short cooldown.
…not to mention that Merciful Ambush is minor now! You can avoid a teammate getting stomped by just starting to revive him. Very helpful in some situations.
That’s also situational. It’s great to be able to avoid the stomp through granting stealth, but you’ll most likely get cleaved and/or AoE’d right after the opponent misses his stomp. It would probably best to interrupt or stun the stomper instead, trying to get his attention off of the fallen.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
“Spam your skills around you”
-Thief looks at you and think you’re an idiot for hitting air.
I do the same thing as a thief. It’s survival, not the red carpet. Appearance is nothing.
“Shadow Refuge. That’s where the thief is”
Double dodge will avoid all if not most damage. You can also use SB or Sword evade if you aim it correctly.
That’s playing playing on a pretty fine line. Shadow Refuge is used defensively a lot. Dodges may have been expended already, and even if available, you’d better hope you have enough room to maneuver inside… especially with weapon evade skills. How long can you actually dodge/evade against AoE inside SR anyway? The full 4 seconds?
" Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability"
Vamp runes say hi! Nothing carries a player more than stealth and invul.
Now, that’s just silly. Besides, Vamp runes proc at low health and take away ALL abilities… not something a thief desires at all. The only place stealth and a COMPLETELY defensive invulnerability carries players is out of a hot zone if they’re lucky, but usually, it carries them to a different place to die. If it carried them anywhere else, thieves would reign supreme on the battlefield.
Honestly, that’s like saying defense carries players. Well, yeah, it keeps them from dying. That’s the same for everybody. Thieves just have a different type of defense than most. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Without it, there would be a LOT more dead thieves… already more than the MULTITUDE there already are.
I’m missing something… with nerfed stealth and nerfed dodges, how is a thief supposed to stay alive???
- D/D thief if he’s lucky I don’t have ‘sic em’ equipped.
What? You just press signet of stone and you’ve avoided their whole burst while giving you 6s of free cast time.
Story of my poor thief’s life. Open up on the ranger, get’em down to 10% health, then my most powerful attacks do 0 damage. If I’m running dagger offhand, I’ve got to run around while getting shot at for 6 seconds :-(
After rereading I thought the situation was for mesmer, if it’s for thief there’s a chance aftercast on BlackPowder will allow you to start a double strike after the daze wears of and before to clear the blind so you an steal before the heartseeker finishes (this only happens if steal is cast too early during black powder activation). If that doesn’t look like its going to be the case you can clear the blind with Blinding Powder then steal, or if you have Infiltrator’s Signet you can use that to stun break then double strike and then steal. You’ll also want to get out of the black powder, because you might need to land a headshot once the daze you put on the enemy thief is over.
It was for any profession, thank you. And that is quite interesting. So if another thief does this to me, and I were to Black Powder right as he is using Heartseeker, would the Heartseeker in progress miss because of the blind, or would the following Backstab miss?