Guild Wars 2

Zacchary.6183:

Any—being—that—perceives—themselves—as—an—individual—and—can—act—for—themselves—through—that—perception—has—a—soul.

For use people in Earth, this would be true, because there’s no concrete proof that souls exist.

However, in Tyria, we know that souls exist. They are actual, (meta)physical things. It isn’t just a notion of thinking, it is an actual power and energy source – or food source, in regards to demons.

Zacchary.6183:

Why—does—the—formerly—named—Hobo-tron—continue—to—pay—his—debts—to—organic—society—when—he—has—done—more—than—enough? The—task—it—has—set—for—itself—is—a—journey—it—has—decided—to—walk—and—only—it—can—declare—the—end—of—it’s—journey.

Just—wanted—to—point—that—out.

Just want to say, free choice is not the same as a soul.

Though Heal-o-Tron may not even have free will, but just very loosely set parameters that work in accordance to a wide variety of situations. Like a parameter for self-preservation which would lead him to work for the benefit of Lion’s Arch since it would prove his innocence in aiding Scarlet Briar, thus remove the charges on him, therefore saving his self (ergo, self-preservation).

Andele.1306:

1. Golems, being magical constructs based on necromancy,

They’re not based on necromancy, but rather golemancy is very similar to necromancy. Still, they differ.

Tell me where it says that the entity – the being whom was influencing Scarlet – was Mordremoth.

You can’t. Know why? Talk to Braham, Rox, Kasmeer, and Marjory currently in game. They say they’re going to investigate the entity and find out who it was.

The machine destroyed barriers allowing something trying to get at her to actually get at her, but we hold no solid evidence of who that “something” was. Just that it wanted to wake Mordremoth – for whatever, of many, reason.

@Haaznahnuff: the spiders aren’t altered. They use typical Forest Spider models.

It’s unclear whether or not the husks are of Court origins or not, but they’re not “corrupted husks” – they’re “summoned husks”. And it seems that there’s a second source (or perhaps just coming directly from the Nightmare, the situation isn’t clear) in Wychmire Swamp.

@A Massive Headache: I don’t recall anything regarding “oxygen deprivation”. I think you mean sensory deprivation? As that’s what was originally said that Omadd’s machine did – cuts off your senses and effectively, separates mind from body. So it wouldn’t prevent communication with the Pale Tree (since the Dream is not part of the body).

Sunshine.4680:

There are dragons in this game? Besides zhaitan the others seem to do nothing. Think Scarlet has done more than they have. The Centaurs seem to be a more bigger threat than these imaginary dragons.

The Elder Dragons are meant to be a “distant threat” – they’re there, but they’re so far away it’d be like there was a rebellion going off in New York City while you’re living in San Fransisco.

WatchTheShow.7203:

After completing your personal story up to level 30 ish, if you run around the undead enough, you can hear them scream after you “You should have died with Forgal!” or, “We’re sending you to shake hands with Tybalt!”. Since these lesser undeads are mindless drones, and are all controlled by their master Zhaitan, Zhaitan is sending this message down the chain to make sure it gets to you to mess with your head. The elder dragons know what’s up.

That’s actually not a mindless drone but a higher one. In mechanics, it’s a veteran, but lore-wise it’d be on par to quite a few semi-sentient entities who remember their past life and can speak on their own accord.

Lazarus.3970:

This very question is brought up by one of the Zepherite children on the back end of the flying ship.

The child asks a teacher why the dragons want to kill everyone. She tells him that the dragons are just a force of nature. They no more want to kill us then a flood or an earthquake wants to kill anyone. They just do. Simply put, the dragons are just doing what they must do, which is consume all the magic they can and sort of “reset” the world.

Which goes back to the whole perspective of the Tyrians, who view the Elder Dragons as mere forces of nature or beings beyond comprehension. But this isn’t what the minions show.

Tipper.7354:

When it grew, away from the influence of Mordremoth, it had true free will – something possessed only by the most powerful Dragon Minions. It’s no drone or mindless soldier, it’s capable of independent thought. The only Dragon Minion we’ve ever seen capable of actively turning against its master was Glint, an established Champion, and the Pale Tree not only possesses the same level of freedom – it was able to pass that free will onto its children, while retaining a connection to them all through the Dream and making itself into a mother-figure.

That’s not how dragon minions work. Distance doesn’t seem to matter for an Elder Dragons’ influence – see the risen showing up all the way in Ascalon, being made there, or Mazdak being corrupted from his grave. And no dragon minion has “true free will” (see above).

Champions are also not capable of giving off its level of self-decision to lower champions. They can create new champions (e.g., Drakkar, a champion of Jormag, corrupting Svanir into a champion of Jormag), but there’s nothing to support champions capable of doing this in massive numbers, and it would mean that – for your theory – that each sylvari is a dragon champion, capable of spreading “corruption” themselves.

Tipper.7354:

There is no doubt that it possesses incredible magical power.

That does not really mean nor support something being a dragon champion. Elder Dragons and their champions are not the only powerful magical beings.

Tipper.7354:

Now, none of that was hypothetical.

Actually, quite a lot of it was – or just misinformed. You assume the entity was Mordremoth (unknown). You assume the Pale Tree’s warnings is unique unto sylvari (unknown). You assume that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (false). You assume dragon champions hold free will (false). You assume proximity is important to dragon mental control (false). You assume that dragon champions are created before the Elder Dragon is awakened (false). You assume that the recent birth of a race relates them to the recent rise of the Elder Dragons (unknown).

Tipper.7354:

It can create a limitless army of smaller minions from its own pods, that are connected telepathically to both the Tree and one another via the Dream.

We actually don’t know if it is limitless, but this is actually a point against them being dragon minions. Dragon minions are ALWAYS something else that are twisted. Sylvari, however, are born.

Furthermore, they’re not connected telepathically. To use Killeen’s words from Ghosts of Ascalon:

“It isn’t mind-reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind.”

But that is what the case is for dragon minions. It’s a hive mind. Sylvari don’t have this. Different situations.

Tipper.7354:

the only being we canonically know to have communicated with and openly served Mordremoth was one of the Pale Tree’s rebellious children.

Speculation still.

Tipper.7354:

Frankly, if it’s not a Dragon Champion, then presumably Mordremoth’s actual Champions are literal Gods, because they’d have to be in order to be more powerful than the Pale Tree.

Not really. I mean, just because the Pale Tree has the capability of birthing a lot of children makes her little more than a broodmother in that regard. And she just happens to be connected to the Dream – which I mentioned, is not unique to sylvari (again: White Stag).

Tipper.7354:

So there we go. You wanted evidence to argue that the Pale Tree was a Champion of Mordremoth. How’s that?

I remain unconvinced. And it certainly isn’t unquestionable, nor does it seem heavily implied.

And in fact, NONE of what you posted was new to me. Like I said, I saw it all a hundred times (that… probably isn’t an exaggeration, sadly).

Tipper.7354:

If anything, Scarlet Briar is the best evidence. When Cera attempted to look into the Eternal Alchemy, the experiment she underwent was designed to break down barriers in her mind and give her visions of things greater than herself. When she was about to break one last barrier in her mind, the Pale Tree telepathically begged her to stop, but she went on, and encountered the will of Mordremoth. Meaning that the Jungle Dragon’s will was already present in her mind, but hidden and dormant behind a barrier that the Pale Tree knew of, instinctively knew Cera was about to breach, and desperately tried to stop her. That’s pretty unequivocal that the Jungle Dragon had a connection to her mind. And while it’s not in itself solid proof that Mordremoth was able to connect to Cera’s mind specifically because she was Sylvari, the actions of the Pale Tree strongly suggest it was.

While indeed Scarlet is the strongest evidence, arguably, it is still highly speculative.

1. We do not know whom the entity is, be it Mordremoth or not.
2. We do not know that said entity was “always within Scarlet” as many presume – just that it got in her prior to going into the machine.
3. We actually do not know why the Pale Tree begged Scarlet not to carry on. It is possible she (the Pale Tree) is holding a secret, but it doesn’t have to be that she’s a minion of Mordremoth. It can just as easily be that Mordremoth has been constantly attempting to corrupt her because she’s a plant and produces a massive army of plant-beings.
4. The barrier mentioned, it should be noted, is said by Vorpp it be in “us” – meaning that it’s present in more than just sylvari.
5. Given that the vision has not been proven to be unique to sylvari either, though Vorpp implies it holds a connection to the Dream (which it should be noted, is not unique to sylvari – see White Stag), it may be that any non-sylvari who’d enter would be corrupted.

Tipper.7354:

It answers a lot of existing questions without contradicting anything that we know for certain.

I can think of a few:

1. How did the Pale Tree break free from Mordremoth’s enthrallment? Ventari Tablet isn’t an answer – it took an ancient and powerful spell requiring magic already known to be immune to dragon corruption (Forgotten’s magic) to free Glint. It’s magical enthrallment and by all cases, cannot be broken by one’s willpower (since the enthrallment destroys the willpower).
2. Why are sylvari immune, but other dragon minions not?
3. Why don’t sylvari – even the Nightmare Court should the Nightmare be a cause of Mordremoth – hail to the dragon every other few sentences like every proven dragon minion?

Tipper.7354:

Now, it’s established that Dragon Champions are free-willed, capable of rebellion, and can be active while their masters sleep: we need only look at Glint for that.

False. Glint needed to be freed by an external source – an ancient ritual the Forgotten discovered. Glint didn’t break off by her own free will. She was given free will and then broke off. See Arah explorable, Forgotten path.

Dragon corruption removes free will, even from dragon champions. Dragon champions just have more intelligence and more self-decisions. But they still revere their dragon, they’re still fanatically devoted to it. The closest to rebellion a dragon champion that wasn’t freed could obtain is being selfish and focusing on a target related to them and not the best benefit of their dragon (see Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows, or the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan letting Trahearne and the PC pass the 8 very powerful guards).

Tipper.7354:

Look, the Elemental Alignment thing… I can only say so many times that it’s just a perspective for looking at the Elder Dragons and not, in fact, a Canonical Classification that they must adhere to. I like the idea of them aligning to the Elements, I think they kinda fit the molds… you don’t have to agree with me, I’m saying over and over that it’s just a perspective that I like. Any attempt to lay it out factually is doomed from the start because I’m openly acknowledging it’s not a canon thing, so can we agree to disagree on that one?

And what I’ve been saying is that Kralkatorrik fits into your little non-canon classification for air more than Jormag does – or ever will.

Though since this is a lore forum about discussing canon lore, if you’re going to acknowledge “it isn’t canon” that’s the same as saying “I’m wrong” in regards to this forum.

Tipper.7354:

The first and most obvious thing is to establish that the Sylvari are heavily implied to be Mordremoth’s creations.

Actually, they aren’t. There are a million billion threads on this topic by now that I grow tired of it. But I’ll humor you, though didn’t this already get brought up and discussed earlier in this thread. Anyways, there is an interpretation of facts that can potentially point to sylvari being Mordremoth’s minions. But it is far from “heavily implied”.

Tipper.7354:

The Sylvari have only just begun to appear before the awakening of Mordremoth – much like the other Dragons, where their minions mobilised before the Dragon awoke.

This is actually far from true. Only minions from the previous rise woke up before their dragon – and not all of them either. Just a single champion. A “harbinger” if you will. Or a herald. Whatever term you prefer, there is no canon one. And that heralder (Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, Glint) were capable of making more minions. The Pale Tree – the supposed heralder for Mordremoth in this situation – would have to be older than even humanity, but it is in fact not even 250 years old. They do not fit the standard herald situation.

Tipper.7354:

Their immunity to the Dragon Corruption is something not shared by any other life form save for those already corrupted, which suggests a further connection. Risen do not become Branded, Destroyers do not become Icebrood, and Sylvari don’t become any of them. So either they have a completely random and mysterious immunity to Corruption, or else it’s explained by the fact that they are, effectively, already corrupted.

Except for the Forgotten. And it isn’t even shared with other dragon minions.

Go to Crucible of Eternity. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha are all three creatures corrupted by multiple dragon minions. So Risen can become branded, and so forth.

Tipper.7354:

There’s the obvious artwork of plant-based dragons that others have linked in many cases before. Zone Green of the Crucible of Eternity has an obvious plants-and-nature theme, and Mordremoth himself is officially referred to as the Jungle Dragon.

This is the only solid evidence you’ve provided yet. However, just because Mordremoth is plant themed doesn’t mean that a race of sentient plants are tied to him – otherwise we’d be arguing that treants and even Moss Dragons from Cantha are or may be tied to him. Instead, what Crucible of Eternity (Zone Green and Experimental Green Lab) show is the Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks having potential ties to Mordremoth – it is, of course, possible that they were brought there by the Inquest to be infused with dragon corruption but haven’t yet (just like we don’t see any deep sea dragon minions there but there is a place for them). But in all honesty, it’s more likely that the Evolved Husk has already had such corruption, and it seems to hold power over the Nightmare Hounds/Husks. But this does not imply sylvari at large are Mordremoth minions – but rather just that the Nightmare is.

Tipper.7354:

We learn in the Personal Story that the Pale Tree came from a seed found deep in the Maguuma Jungle, and there may be others like it.

This is learned well before the Personal Story but that’s besides the point. I do not see how this relates the Pale Tree to Mordremoth, given that location does not beget connection. There are many sentient plants in the Maguuma, as well as elsewhere. They don’t appear in GW2, but beyond treants in GW1 there were Stalkers, Ibolgas, Aloes, and many more in the Maguuma area. See here. A single sentient plant group out of many is far from unique.

1 slot with the wardrobe allowing you to switch it out with any miniature you’ve got stored in your bank. Done.

I do that. It’s just that the crystal’s aren’t always in plain view unless you go to a rather specific spot or look directly up (few do that).

And who didn’t solo the Great Destroyer in GW1? I solo’d Shiro in under 2 minutes (NM or HM) in both Imperial Sanctum and Gate of Madness! Without the typical build used! Hah! :P

The Crystal Desert ghosts were actually only 200 years old from when Turai Ossa took a bunch from Elona to the desert to Ascend. They didn’t talk anything about civilizations predating Ascalon or Kryta, just groups of pilgrims and kingdoms that tried settling in the land before the players show up (Turai mentions two groups, doesn’t name them though, showing after them, and names the Margonites whom were before Turai’s group).

Elona was established in 200 BE, with humanity arriving in Elona and Orr in 205 BE. When Orr was established is still unknown, same with the exact time of Kryta, but Ascalon was established in 100 BE. But we didn’t know when Elona was established until Nightfall. In the Crystal Desert, all we knew were of five groups that had tried to establish themselves in the desert and failed: Margonites, Primeval Kings, Turai’s Elonians, Seekers (who they were is still fully unknown), and Ascalonians. In that supposed order.

Evon Skyfyre.9673:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Evon: That was the easiest and first Master crystal I got! What’re you talking about, “evil”? Pfha!

I didn’t go to dulfy.net lol

Neither did I. I ended up spotting it as I slipped while trying to get to a Charged Crystal.

I only went to dulfy for the general location (not the way to) the final 2 Masters since I looked everywhere for them. One of them was on that cliff where you have to fall from the waypoint…. sneaky one. The other… was painfully obvious. >.<

I think that Kralkatorrik fits the theme of air FAR better than Jormag ever will.

1. He uses lightning, a base form of air magic.
2. His champion’s magic was divided into Wind, Sun, and Lightning Aspects.
3. He turns his own body into a sandstorm, as well as having branded lightning storms called Brandstorms in his territory.

Though Kralkatorriks’ corruption takes the form of crystal, Kralkatorrik has far more things in relation to air than Jormag ever will. The only relation Jormag has to air is “he has storms” (which can be said for most if not every dragon) and “cold wind is cold” which… is not a relation at all since it doesn’t relate to Jormag, but to coldness. And to relate something to the Elder Dragon just because it relates, loosely, to the element of the Elder Dragon is… just downright silly to me. At such a state, I can claim that Primordus would be tied to the sun.

Don’t try to fit into the “classic elements” just because you “almost can” either. Because these aren’t parts of another story – any other story, lore, or mythology is fully irrelevant here. It can prove to be a potential inspiration, but beyond that, no. And it’s pretty obvious that’s not the case here.

I really don’t think that you “twisting lore” gives you any hold in a discussion on canon lore. And nothing really shows Mordremoth thus far being in any way related to life – there’s really far too little to know about Mordremoth. If any Elder Dragon is a “dragon of life” it’d probably be Primordus, since he’s the only Elder Dragon known to exclusively corrupt inanimate objects (though it’s been said he can corrupt living beings, it has also been said we never seen such happen outright yet). Arguably, Zhaitan can be called life, since he “breaths life” into corpses (resulting in undead albeit) and his minions are constantly preaching about immortality and never going to the Mists or losing loved ones (aka never dying).

On the Pale Tree: yes, it is unique. But not unique because of shape or capabilities, or sentience. And she certainly isn’t unique in a “she’s like a dragon champion” either. I really don’t see any “implied strong connections to an Elder Dragon” either – all I’ve seen on that has been people making connections through similar but unconnected facts. At best, the only connection lies in that the Nightmare is tied to an Elder Dragon and that’s the Pale Tree’s only tie to them or it – her connection to the Dream which is threatened by the Nightmare (and theoretically in turn, the Elder Dragon(s)).

I have yet to see anything of strong evidence to support the claim that the Pale Tree “could be” a dragon champion. Not. A. Single. Thing. Just ‘wishful thinking’ by some that make the leap of “hey, there’s some things that relate the Nightmare to Mordremoth” to “all sylvari are dragon minions and the Pale Tree is its champion!” – there is no middle ground established between these two claims, and it is a mighty large leap to make, that holds no explanation thus far that cannot be countered with actual evidence.

Jormag is outright called the Elder Ice Dragon, or the dragon of ice and snow. His corruption always takes the form of shimmering ice. The *ice*brood are beings who’s flesh is slowly turned into ice.

I don’t think you can argue that he’s air just because he uses powerful snowstorms (aka blizzards).

It’d be different if it were a tornado, but a blizzard? That’s just ice and snow moving through the air.

Even if Jormag uses some air, it’s in no more a direction than any other Elder Dragon – especially Kralkatorrik, given how the sun, wind, and lightning aspects come from his champion (Glint).

Tipper.7354:

Now this could work. More general classifications, and there’s a connection to themes rather than specific classifications. The Dragon of the Ocean, The Dragon of the Jungle, The Dragon of the Deep Earth, The Dragon of the Mountains. Gives more range to their power, less limitation. Though even then, it still means that Mordremoth is more than just The Dragon of Plants.

Such classifications take the form of the “deep sea dragon” “Orrian dragon” “desert dragon” and “jungle dragon” – classifications of their location rather than power.

Tipper.7354:

Well yes, but none of those have spawned an entire and seperate sentient race that considers the magical tree to be their mother. They are also not the size of an actual, literal city, and grant visions of the future through an Avatar of themselves. Yeah, there’s nothing so unusual about “A white barked tree”, but you can’t really pretend that The Pale Tree and The Grove are exactly normal or in the same category as a Treant, can you?

Urgoz and Wardens for first point.

Stonewood trees and Echovald Forest trees for the latter. Those things are huge and have entire citadels and cathedrals that are practically Divinity’s Reach sized carved into the latter. Big trees are not unique either.

The Dream seems to be more unique to magical creatures located in the Maguuma Jungle, given the White Stag and its apparent nature and how it is a being within both the Dream and Tyria. The Dream also closely mimics the Mists – which doesn’t make the Pale Tree unique either, given the Voice of the kodan, the Havrouns of the norn, the Six Gods of the humans, or the Spirits of the Wild of the norn (and the connection to the Mists or something akin to the Mits is something that the Elder Dragons lack – the only creature related to the Elder Dragons that can foretell the future is Glint, but she’s called an oracle so it seems unique to her and not to the Elder Dragons).

Tipper.7354:

It strikes me more that the six Elder Dragons are basically aligned with your classic elements. Each one fits the theme with their appearance, minions and (so far as we know) powers. Primordius is Fire, Jormag is Air, Kralkatorrik is Earth, the Deep Sea Dragon is Water, Zhaitan is Death, and Mordremoth is Life.

Jormag is not air. Jormag is ice. He has nothing related to air.

And Kralkatorrik is crystal, but also utilizes earth, fire, and lightning.

And Mordremoth’s only related element is earth presently. Which Primordus also uses.

So your allignment doesn’t really work.

In an interview with GuildMag, Jeff Grubb talks about Elder Dragon corruption and what they corrupt, listing three themes of “what they corrupt” – and what we get is:

“We’ve shown that from the early Eye of the North, and when we designed the Elder Dragons we were looking at them having specialties where they could corrupt more than just one type of substance. Some of them could affect life, some of them could affect inanimate objects, some of them could affect the elements, vegetation, water, you know they all had their some specialty but they also have some overlap […]”

So I don’t think it is very easy to try to list them like you are. Because they can overlap.

(What’s most interesting to me in that quote is his list of “elements, vegetation, water” – separating water from elements; it may have been unintentional, but I think those three link to the “themes” of the Elder Dragons. Kralkatorrik, having used lightning, earth, crystal, sand, and fire in his attacks and minions, would be elements; the DSD would be water; and Mordremoth would be vegetation).

And if we’re talking about how Dragon Champions take unusual forms, let’s not forget that the Pale Tree is not actually the white Sylvari you meet in The Grove. That’s just her avatar. The Pale Tree is actually the entire Grove itself.

What is so unusual about a white barked tree? It isn’t like the Pale Tree is the only sentient or magical tree out there.

Urgoz, all treants (oakhearts, mosshearts, willowhearts, and pinesouls), the Ancestor Trees, and the Terebinth are all magical and/or sentient trees in Tyria.

Korval.3751:

Wanderer.3248:

Korval.3751:

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

I’m only basing this on what has been released on the official GW2 Wiki.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Notice the concept art. Notice there’s not a single non-plant creature. The conclusion, for now, is that Mordremoth’s influence is limited to flora and flora beings… like the Sylvari.

That concept art in the gallery section being related to Mordremoth is all speculative, added by Tamias (Santax over there). NEVER trust the wiki to be fully accurate, as it is often filled with people’s theorycrafting (especially, sad to say, when Santax is involved).

THose concept art are of early renditions Nightmare Court. Again: NOT RELATED TO MORDREMOTH AT ALL. Santax/Tamias’ addition is purely speculative and quite honestly that section should be removed because there is zero proof that the early renditions of the Nightmare Court concept art will hold any bearing on Mordremoth or its minions. It’s just him fueling his theory that sylvari are dragon minions.

Wanderer.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I fail to see how spirits – which are not material – can be the same as a material body (even if made out of plants).

Spirits don’t have to be immaterial. The separation of the spirit and the physical world is a dualistic idea that comes from Abrahamic religions. Elves, Dryads, Valkyries and more are all examples of physical spirits.

Celtic myth in particular was fairly big on the idea of a spirit world (the sidhe) and the material world overlapping, and of beings that could walk in both worlds, and of places that existed in both worlds at once.

In the GWverse, spirits are immaterial. Doesn’t matter what Celtic, norse, and greek myths say, what matters is the case in the game. And in the game, they are immaterial – they are made of ectoplasm, can go through walls, lack feet (like your Japanese interpretation of spirits) or rather did in GW1 (GW2 mechanics put a special effect around standard models rather than making a new model for spirits like GW1 did, in which spirits in GW1 mostly if not all had invisible feet), and they live in the spirit realm (aka the Mists) rather than the mortal realm.

Spirits in Tyria are immaterial.

Argon.1563:

I don’t think Scarlet is necessarily a champion of Mordremoth, nor a minion, just some kind of a thrall. Because, as we know, Elder Dragons have the ability to influence people, on a mental level, without actually transforming them to their generic minion state. EG: Risen.

Spoilers below concerning Charr Personal Story.
-snip about Rissa-

I think mechanically she does count as a Risen, it’s just that – like Kellach – she doesn’t hold the decrepid state of corruption. This doesn’t mean she wasn’t fully corrupted – she was, mentally – just that she wasn’t corrupted in the standard methodology of Risen (like Kellach, she was likely corrupted by an artifact).

Veprovina.4876:

My only problem with the story toward the end is that they keep adding new characters that all die heroic deaths in the same mission and then all act like it’s a tragedy and that I the player should feel something… Feel what? I just met them!

What’s surprising is how well they characterised them in those few lines of dialoge you can have with them (in cutscenes and talking to them during story)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

When Tybalt died like that, it really had an impact, but as the story nears completion, everyone dies heroicly and it looses all meaning. The have character, but they lack the character arc Tybalt had.

So you see, the dragons are, while pretty threatening and not at all 2 dimensional or cartoony but actually very complex (if you read into the story deeper), not the focus of the overall story… The little people are.

The real issue is that all the characters who die – except for the fear arc – are all from the earlier personal story. So you not only have a 1 in 15 chance (or 1 in 5 in one case) of meeting them the first time, but an additional 1 in 3 chance of meeting them later on. That’s a 1 in 45 chance of the player knowing the NPC long enough to try to care. And even then, the first time we met some of them… we don’t meet them long enough to care. For example, Beirne – you meet him in the tutorial for humans, and only then – and even then he has about 3 lines (spoken and box combined). But on the other hand, Tegwen and Carys you have an even higher chance to care for – if you did Act with Wisdom as a sylvari, you met them early on; if you did Priory and chose to recruit them for Retribution, you met them in the middle of the story; if you decided to lure the Eye out, you met them again – you have 3 chances to met those two and players who meet them each time will have a strong connection to them (but that’s literally a 1 in 540 chance! 1 in 15 for first, 1 in 6 for second, 1 in 2 for third, and 1 in 3 for last).

Zott was, imo, another well done one because the story made it feel like he’d be the survivor and Elli would be the one who died. If also met Zott no matter what during Retribution – though if you played a Dynamics asura, or a sylvari who went with the Order of Whispers when retrieving Caladbolg, you could meet Elli once before too.

But the rest? Tonn, Apatia, Beirne, Grechen, Ferghen, Kekt, and Arda? They weren’t done so well. Apatia was probably the best of them, just because in the end, you had to kill her. Each of the others (sans Tonn, Kekt, and Arda) had a 1 in 45 chance to have been met before (Tonn and Arda you never met before, and Kekt you meet during Forging the Pact, but could meet earlier if you were Priory, and Beirne was 1 in 5 technically, but he got 3 lines as I mentioned).

Honestly, that was probably my biggest issue. It would have been so much better if the NPCs who accompany you is determined by your biography options rather than your path choices in Orr – then you’d care a bit more.

Palador.2170:

From what I’ve always understood, the dragons by themselves are pretty animalistic. It’s when they corrupt sentient beings and they become linked to them that they get smart, and pick up more evil traits.

There’s actually hints of an intelligent ancient draconic civilization (Glint is said to have been a corrupted being, and was a dragon, then we have the Bone Dragons from GW1, and Cantha’s many dragons and dragon-like beings that are unrelated to the Elder Dragons).

But even if what you said were true, they’d have lost that animalistic nature with their first rising, as there’s no indication that they lose any intelligence of their own – or memories – with minion deaths. And each Elder Dragon has shown to have surviving minions from the previous (or perhaps older) rises, though most are dead now: the Great Destroyer, Glint, Drakkar, and the Risen Giganticus Lupicus.

Wanderer.3248:

Dragon minions may exhibit remnants of intelligence and express that under limited autonomy. That doesn’t mean the dragon itself feels the same way, or that the dragons feel much of anything, except hunger.

They seek to conquer, but only in the same way that a swarm of insects does, by smothering all other life. I doubt they care at all about dominating the faces of Tyria, when they could simply wipe them out.

We see Jormag feeling hatred in Edge of Destiny. We see Zhaitan feel fear and anger in the personal story. We see Kralkatorrik use strategies in Edge of Destiny, and in Edge of Destiny we also see – from Kralkatorrik’s own mind – him wanting things, and being angered and hating those which he cannot obtain (aka greed).

The Elder Dragons certainly feel more than just hunger. They hold emotions (even if only negative thus far), and they think and strategize personally. It isn’t all their minions doing.

The lack of “simply wiping them out” comes from them being millenia old – why rush, and put yourself at risk, when you can grow armies over time and annihilate the enemy via attrition with no risk to your self?

Lucky.9421:

What was the original citation for Kryta being colonized by Elonians? I see it in the wiki but don’t recall where it is in the cannon.

the timeline in the novels.

It has been known since Prophecies that Kryta existed since the time of King Doric (though it’s size is unknown), but it was “established as a colony” in 300 AE. GW2 and the novels has since clarified that it was founded by Mazdak, a prince of Orr, and was at war with Orr during said founding, and that Elona colonized it and expanded Kryta’s territories, beginning the 1,000+ year long Centaur War.

Palador.2170:

From what I understand, the dragons themselves are not smart. Rather, it is their more powerful minions that are smart, and then that intelligence passes up the link into the dragon. That’s part of the reason why I want us to interact with minions more at first.

The dragons are rabid, wild animals. Dangerous, but not actually evil. Any evil comes from their minions, the champions and lieutenants. I’d like to see that explored a bit more in the next LS.

The Elder Dragons show intellect, strategy, and personality. Just read Edge of Destiny and it is shown pointblank – or read Sea of Sorrows and you can see hints of it.

The Elder Dragons learn everything their minions knew and know – that means that they each have the knowledge of countless civilizations. That doesn’t seem “not smart” to me, nor does it seem like “rabid, wild animals”. They are very sapient, definitely strategic (Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik both targeted threats to them early on – attacking Order HQs, trying to defame and/or kill Trahearne and the PC, or in Kralk’s case going to kill Glint).

The rumors of thawing Jade Sea is not just in pools of water on the surface, but that there’s moving water beneath the Jade. So rather than it being rainfall and whatnot (which should have been so commonplace given 200 years of frozen sea), it would be more likely if the water only froze so far down, and the Luxons just mined far down enough.

Edit: For reference sake, the lines of the rumors:

“Over the past few years, life has begun to spring up in Echovald Forest as many areas have seen new growth take hold. Some even claim to have seen a change in the Jade Sea—small pools of water forming or even waves moving beneath the frozen surface—but these reports are unsubstantiated rumors at best.”

Kurzick Peasant 1: “I wonder…With the Afflicted gone, will the forest begin to heal itself?”
Kurzick Peasant 2: “I am certain that it will, but the question is: what happens because of it?”
Kurzick Peasant 1: “What do you mean?”
Kurzick Peasant 2: “Think of it this way: Our people have adapted to life in these petrified woods. New life and new creatures have found their homes here. What happens when all of that changes?”
Kurzick Peasant 1: “I see your point. But there’s one thing we can take comfort in. While our people may have tough changes ahead of them, it’s nothing compared to the Luxons.”
Kurzick Peasant 2: “When the Jade Sea thaws, the lot of them will just sink!”

Korval.3751:

How else would a Elder Dragon, specifically the elder dragon of jungles and plants corrupt their servants, champions and minions if not by means of mental telepathy and persuasion. Case in point…

-snip short story excerpt-

Now pay attention to this part…

BEGIN EXCEPT:

Manic glee flashed in her eyes and she said, “Good-bye, old friend. All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained. And I am a very, very good student.”

END EXCEPT

She states “All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained.” She calls it “shared wisdom”. I call it mental persuasion. Only an ancient Elder Dragon of immense power through mental persuasion would be able to create these strong visions. And because Mord can only influence plants these visions would only work for creatures like the Sylvari. Why Ceara? It could have been anyone… but perhaps it was her because she put herself in a position mentally to be influenced.

Okay, firstly, Abaddon and Kanaxai (a mere demon) were capable of twisting individuals to such extents to.

Secondly, we see the Elder Dragons corrupt with exuding magic – Jormag uses mental persuasions, but it should be noted that Jeff Grubb explicitly stated that each Elder Dragon (and their minions) corrupted differently. Meaning the chances of two Elder Dragons that corrupt via mental persuation is… slim. Kralkatorrik seems to corrupt the physical, Zhaitan focuses on the undead, Primordus focuses on inanimate rocks, and Jormag focuses on the mind. Mordremoth? My bet given all hints – or rather, supposed hints – is that he corrupts plants primarily and that he focuses in poisons (I am of the theory that the toxins of the Tower of Nightmares is Mordremoth-related).

Thirdly… I don’t see what your post has to do with what you quoted.

We still don’t know that the entity was Mordremoth, so we cannot be clear that she was corrupted by Mordremoth either. There are beings beyond Elder Dragons, gods, and powerful demons that can do the effective mind screw (mursaat are known to do that – I give you, The Inquisitor which was capable of taking a person’s thoughts from their head, and wasn’t even a mesmer).

Wanderer.3248:

I think the immunity “stems” from the fact that the Sylvari have no souls. There are mentions in the game of dragon minions having their souls removed so that their bodies can be possessed. For instance there is a ghost in Mount Maelstrom that laments the fate of its body. And there is a Kodan in Frostgorge sound that states that Jormag only corrupts the bodies of Kodan.

If Sylvari, being creatures that came from the dream, are basically spirits, spirits that are inseparable from their bodies it could explain why they die when corrupted.

We see many risen who have the original souls – the Risen Keeper of the Temple (Grenth’s temple, part of PS) and the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan (King Reza’s soul and body). While there’s no evidence to point to sylvari having souls, I doubt that is the cause of their immunity.

And about the kodan – I chalk that up to the ego of the kodan, because they think they’re on top of the spiritual food chain. We see outright in Edge of Destiny that Jormag and his champions corrupt the mind of an individual, not just the body. I fail to see why a kodan would be any different. Though we know that Jormag can and will corrupt corpses.

Wanderer.3248:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We do see some risen with souls, though, sovereign eye/Reza the most prominent example.

Arguably King Reza’s soul was not in his body. The eye says that the players mentor is “beneath the dragons wings”, which could mean that Zhaitan is holding the souls somewhere or somehow. Or Perhaps Zhaitain only binds the souls of the most powerful of its minions, while the common minions are the soulless shells they act like.

Either way, when the body dies, the soul is free and uncorrupted. Zhaitan seems to corrupt only the body and not the soul. If Sylvari spirits are their body, this wouldn’t work, since corrupting their body would be corrupting their spirit.

He pops out of the Eye’s corpse location…. And the theory is that Zhaitan does, indeed, only binds the souls of the more powerful of its minions.

And I fail to see how spirits – which are not material – can be the same as a material body (even if made out of plants).

That first scenario would make sense only if the jade removed from the region thawed faster.

I can float for “only a section of it did” – I’ve personally been a fan of the idea that the jade is thawing so slowly that now, in GW2’s time, we have giant iceberg-like blocks of jade throughout the Jade Sea.

With statues, it would make sense that they learned to freeze it perpetually/with maintenance.

But still, the notion that “it isn’t thawing, and the rumors are false” still hangs in the air. And I wouldn’t mind that either, because the jade statues were one of my favorite aesthetics of Cantha.

Randulf.7614:

I agree with not having to read yet another post on the same topic posted multiple times a day, but can you clarify where the devs said “fully permanent”? I’m not disputing it, but I don’t follow any comms outside of the forums or website, so anything said on Reddit/ready up/social media/interviews, I will have missed.

A developer in game said it. The above post’s link was to a gallery with screenshots of the discussion.

A fixed link (because pdavis copied two urls on top of each other): http://i.imgur.com/JL4js7E.jpg Lady Avant is the dev.

It isn’t “absolute proof” but it’s kitten better than the pure speculation that drives these threads’ creation.

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

On an unrelated note (in response to what you were talking about above), the boundary broken can’t have been removing Scarlet from the Dream because the Pale Tree spoke to her whilst she was in Omadd’s Isolation Module, if you read the short story. It was in there that, as we are told in-game, when Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.

…..I blame ArenaNet for their overuse of generic terms for specific things… dredge, warden, nightmare, dream, etc. etc. The journal talks about general nightmares (as in, when sleeping), not the Nightmare that is related to the Dream of Dreams. I’m… not quite sure which you think it refers to, since you said “the nightmare” multiple times, which indicates you mean the Dream of Dreams thing, not the “bad dream experience” bit.

To the second bit – but we don’t see all of her vision in the short story. She moves on past the Pale Tree. I think this is the breaking from the Dream that occurs (since it was stated by a dev that the experience did separate her from the Dream, or rather, that Scarlet is akin to Soundless but unintentionally so).

A Massive Headache.1879:

that pale tree mother was a hallucination

As much as I wish it was, the Pale Tree has responded and talked about Scarlet from the time in that vision.

Unless to Scarlet’s mind she was warned twice by the Pale Tree to go no further.

Wanderer.3248:

That the nightmare court are unwitting dragon minions is somewhat more plausible. But Dragons are not subtle. Having a secret minion army is not their style. There are no examples in the game of dragon minions being unaware of their corruption, or their master, or of whole secret minions armies. Secret dragon minion armies. Say it out loud. Sounds a little far fetched? If it’s true, it’s cringe-makingly bad writing. It’s the stuff that fanboys come up with in their extended universes, or a plot device from “despicable me”.

Though I loathe to say this: Actually, there is one example of a corrupted individual who doesn’t know he’s corrupted…

Kellach.

Wanderer.3248:

It’s possible that toxic courtiers could be dragon minions. The toxin could be related to, or derived from dragon corruption, or dragon magic. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mordremoths minions look more like the various toxic creatures.

This theory is supported by the fact that the Toxic Krait are mentally altered into following Scarlet (how they’re altered, or to what extent, we don’t know).

Baoz.4735:

how else do you explain the war between the two leged and the horse, im sure it cant be slavery.

When the Elonians colonized Kryta (which had been pre-existing) in 300 AE, they pushed the centaurs out of their homeland (central/northern Kryta), and this became a war ever since. The war was ancient even by GW1’s era, and Ventari lived in GW1. The Centaur War predates the Pale Tree. And it was not sentient nor capable of responding when Ronan and Ventari were still alive.

If you went into the Priory library in Divinity’s Reach, you’d know half of this. If you played GW1 Prophecies and Eye of the North, you’d know the other half. If you read The Movement of the World, you’d know half of it as well (a different half).

Belzebu.3912:

There are some items made of jade and also the crafting item jadeite shard in GW1, those are probably jade from the quarry and not from the water turned into jade and likely same material used in that statue.

You clearly didn’t read my response to you in full.

The Jade Quarry is frozen Jade Sea. The shore of it, specifically speaking. To quote from the outpost description:

“Although the Jade Sea more than lives up to its name, the jade that makes up its petrified waves is not necessarily of the best quality. The Jade Quarry has been literally carved from the stretch of seabed that contains the finest and most valuable jade derived from the mineralized bodies of countless sea creatures. Mining in the Jade Quarry is extremely dangerous, as the Kurzicks and Luxons are almost constantly fighting over this valuable resource.”

Bellyboomer.3048:

First thing that came to my mind: how the hell does jade thaw?!

Same way ice melts – in this case – since though it is called jade, it is literally just petrified water (as opposed to frozen). Or the same way metal would melt when heated high enough – it turns to liquid.

Kalavier.1097:

IMO, I think Jade that was mined, removed from the sea, and carved (or left like that) remained as jade. However the jade in the sea itself slowly started reverting to water.

How does that work? It’s all the same jade, some of it is just mined out while the rest isn’t. Same materials, same magic affected it.

Only way it’d work is if Canthans are actively using magic to keep it jade, rather than letting it thaw “naturally”.

After all, there were quite a lot of statues and other art objects using that jade for materials.

Avascar.9237:

So I’ve been wonderin’. About the world and the story, it all seems good. I want to keep this brief and all, for the sake of argument. I just like to point out that the Elder Dragons don’t feel very evil. In other words, don’t feel like they should be antagonists.

Yes, perhaps they are forces of nature, and it feels very messed up by tampering with nature’s cycles. But there should be an antagonist that’s at least relatable, someone that gives their side of the story and someone I can understand. Who’s going to understand the animistic motives of a freaking dragon? Okay, maybe a few (which, I won’t know how that’ll be done), but doesn’t make my point any less clear.

I feel the devs sacrifice the story just to have the feel-good and epic moments. I say the feels are tripled with a good story. I know they can write good, just look at Tybalt!

The Elder Dragons, in my opinion, are evil – but they don’t view themselves as such.

If you read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows, their champions definitely give them the “evil warlord” vibe. To quote:

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.” – Glint, Edge of Destiny

“This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and of Orr. The day of their ultimate victory is close.” – Captain Whiting, Sea of Sorrows

These lines don’t really describe “forces of nature” to me. Nor do they feel like forces “beyond our comprehension”. And those lines are just the most notable ones! Throughout the game, we see lines from risen (primarily) that show that Zhaitan is malicious, is conniving, a trickster, and downright evil (if not amoral) and seeks to dominate the races and the world, and most importantly: is not out there to just consume magic then fall asleep (as Angel McCoy hinted at when she said the Elder Dragons’ natural role is to balance magic).

The thing is that’s just how Tyrians view the Elder Dragons – as forces of nature or beings beyond comprehension – but there are hints, subtle though they may be presently, that this is not so. Even though we went and fought and defeated Zhaitan, we never saw the personality behind the invading army – but we did see the chance of one. No mere force of nature would hold thoughts, no mere force of nature would give its minions shared personality traits that are seen amongst risen, icebrood, and branded.

And it makes sense that we haven’t seen the full scope of the presence of personality in the Elder Dragons – there are still five more to go! Just the first fifth of the story related to the Elder Dragons has been told. We likely won’t get the full scope until dragon #4 goes down – at least. But with each dragon, we’ll get to see more and more of that scope, their personality, and their origins.

@Evon: That was the easiest and first Master crystal I got! What’re you talking about, “evil”? Pfha!

The achievements actually cannot be used unless they set it up so that unlocking one skin in a tier for the armor piece unlocks the other two armor classes for that tier and item (e.g., buying a tier 1 light glove would unlock the medium and heavy tier 1 gloves).

The reason for this is because if you buy the tier 1 light glove, your achievement goes to 1/18, but if you then buy the tier 1 medium and heavy gloves, your achievement remains at 1/18.

So the achievement can only tell ANet “bought a tier 1 glove” and not “bought a tier 1 light glove”.

And I doubt that they’d link together the three armor tiers for those if they didn’t for the Deadly Shoulders.

The Jade Quarry was indeed part of the Jade Sea that was solidified by the Jade Wind. It was in fact the purest of the Jade made by that event. And I am well aware of Fade at the bottom of the docks, as I even alluded to his (it is a male NPC, not female – he just has a femenine look) dialogue.

Ah, for some reason I read and in the first lines. Hah. Silly me. >.>

They didn’t need to nerf the amount of dust… just increase the amount of uses.

Like putting in a Bloodstone Brick, 250 Bloodstone Dust, 1 Mystic Salvaging Kit, and 1 Crystalline Dust to get you, say, 10-20 Crystalline Dust. I could get behind that.

(Note: I’m not complaining really, as I’m fine with the change, but I still want to see more uses for Bloodstone Dust.)

Back in Eye of the North, the manual hinted that the Jade Sea seems to have been beginning to thaw. This was further alluded to in Winds of Change. However, with the Festival of the Four Winds and the Zephyrites many Canthan-like decorations, I noticed one that’s in plain sight yet rather hard to catch due to being darker and in a corner of sorts.

It is a jade statue of a fish. This holds significance in two ways:

1. It further cements the notion that Zephyrites just came from Cantha – pretty much confirms it IMO, since it is just like the Solid Ocean Fractal, and the Jade Sea is the only known place to hold such large jade stones.
2. It indicates that the Jade Sea is not fully thawed even 250 years after the hints of thawing (if not thawed much at all).

Screenshot of statue in attachments. What do you all think this can mean?

I read the update notes and I was confused at a little something:

• For the next two weeks, every Black Lion Chest will include an additional reward: Boost Enchantment Powder.
  • One armor, strength, speed, or rejuvenation booster can be converted to an Enchanted Combat Booster. This booster allows the player to choose from an armor, strength, speed, or rejuvenation buff.
  • One experience, gathering, crafting, or magic find booster (or two karma boosters) can be converted to an Enchanted Reward Booster. This booster allows the player to choose from an experience, gathering, crafting, magic find, or karma buff.

So basically, unless there’s a double typo in the update notes, you put in 4 boosters (or 5 in the case of karma), and get 1 booster that is equal to just one of the boosters you put in?

It says you choose from, e.g., experience, gathering, crafting, magic find, OR karma buff. Meaning you just get one.

Doesn’t this seem odd? One would think it’d be akin to the Birthday Booster which gives a single buff for multiple gains (experience, wxp, gold find, magic find, and karma find iirc) for an extended period of time. Even if the booster is one hour (standard length), it feels weird that you’d put all those in just to get one buff when you can hold onto them – not spend any time or money with Black Lion Keys – and get more variety of buffs when wanting to use them.

Or am I just misunderstanding something here?

Coming soon: all crafted items will become soulbound. Characters must level their own crafting system to share the items. Exception is in Ascended items, which are account bound by default.

8D

Season 2 is fully permanent. This has been said by the developers.

Only festivities – like the Four Winds, Crown Pavilion, Dragon Bash, Halloween, and Wintersday – are not from here on out, by all given accounts.

Please stop making a new thread for this very topic on a tri-daily schedule people.

Canthan/Chinese styled dragon then. The mini will likely look the same.

Not sure it is tied to Dragon Bash – though lore-wise the festival is based off of Dragon Festival from Cantha, it held no Canthan dragon designs in it. So if it is meant to have any lore tying, it’d be the current Festival of the Four Winds since the Zephyrites seem to have just came from Cantha.

Sariel V.7024:

Zeefa.3915:

Xenon.4537:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

twoscoops.6913:

By the way, OP wasn’t being sarcastic. This quest gives access to a nifty little consumable.

Is this where the harpy pheromone comes from?

When a mommy harpy and a daddy harpy love each other very much….

Daddy harpy? I thought all harpies were female… leaves the question of who father the babies… but nontheless I pretty sure all harpies are females.

If my observations in Elona were correct…. griffons <.<

Nope. Griffons in NF were said to be “baby harpies” – obviously retconned out (for logical reasons), and didn’t make much sense given that we saw “Elder Skree Griffons”.

But to be serious on the “daddy harpy” topic – in Fireheart Rise, we see a grawl being ‘seduced’ by a harpy matriarch. And they kidnap humans (both male and female) in Fields of Ruins. Makes me think that harpies just need a male of any species (think asari from Mass Effect I guess). Or they’re completely asexual reproduction (no need for a partner).

Tamias.7059:

I think this downplays somewhat the fact that this “entity” operates through nightmare. And Mordremoth is suspected by some to also operate through the nightmare, which if true would indicate that they may be one and the same. I think the best way to kitten this would be to sidestep the issue entirely and try to look in detail into the nature of the nightmare.

Nothing says that the entity is operating through the Nightmare though. What is said is that entering Omadd’s machine broke down a boundary that is present in “our minds” (said by Vorpp, thus not limited to sylvari) that allowed the entity to get to Scarlet’s mind. Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare in there, really. Players suspect that the boundary broken was removing Scarlet from the Dream (which would thus mean also removing her from the Nightmare).

Erukk.1408:

Fifth time? Try something more like the fiftieth time. I’d surprised that Konig hasn’t written down the entire debunking info and saved it somewhere. That way, he can just copy/paste a reply and be done with the threads that crop up all together.

Because every time I pray foolishly it’ll be the last time a new thread is popped up – or that it’ll be so recent from the previous that I’ll have the energy and patience to just simply link the said previous post/thread.

Foolish hopes all abound.

Haaznahnuff.1907:

Nonetheless, the Nightmare Court uses a kind of magic to pervert sentient beings, such as fernhounds, spiders, and some treants, and even to break and bind sylvari minds in spite of their attachment to the Dream. Some of they may have tapped the Nightmare somehow, not knowing it was draconic magic.

Moreover, we have wurms and husks which are not the product of the Court, but which look the same as the Court’s servants. Perhaps another hint into what might be the next enemy.

They can only alter plants. The animals I’ve actually seen recently to be explained by them taming through violence in mundane ways – wurms too. In those cases, perhaps also with the sylvan hounds and mosshearts too (and their changing shape is just a result of their own biology), the Nightmare Court are little different than dog fight “tamers”. Abusive pet owners that train their pet to relieve their anger and frustration on others.

It is likely the access to the zone portal we were shown with the announcement of Season 2’s beginning on July 1st.

Which means we’re indeed moving west, but not via Fort Vandal, if so.

The area may be up now, and if so it would be accessed via Toxal Bog it looks like. I can’t tell yet as I’m still uploading the update myself. But it isn’t a full zone for sure. It is also possible – in fact, more likely – that they put that into the map now, but you cannot yet reach it for xyz lore reason. That area is/was previously blocked by the mountain bordering.

Edit: The map itself has been changed, at the least. Which is nice to see. Now I’m curious if we can actually reach there.

Edit2: Yeah, it’s not accessible. Just a change in the map.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I meant more that Scarlet was trying to assert herself against the entity- unless we want to add to her long line of ridiculousness that she could go toe-to-toe with an Elder Dragon in force of will, it would mean that even if Mordremoth was affecting her he probably wasn’t putting enough into it to put her on champion level.

We were told back in September that in her mind, the only thing that might pose a threat to her are the Elder Dragons – so she would at least think she could go toe to toe with an Elder Dragon.

Though not always as apparently there’s a Mount Maelstrom event in which parts of risen corpses recombine into an abomination.

They’re called mindless quite a few times. So no.

Possible exception in Garrenhoff’s elementals though, but they’re a unique situation.

checks food in pot, nods to self

Who wants delicious, juicy, “Annoying Quaggan” soup?

In more seriousness – I hope they get dropped. They’re annoying to me and they’re already feeling like they’re being forced into everything. At the very least, if they must stick around, put them in Lion’s Arch’s little quaggan town and never touch them ever again because really… they feel like they’ve been tacted on as cuteness relief.

Korval.3751:

Well since we don’t know much about Mordremoth we should consider the possibility that unlike the other elder dragons who corrupt from the outside; perhaps Mordremoth corrupts from the inside. The target’s mind or spirit, or both. Which could explain the Nightmare Court, the Giant Jungle Worm, and other “corrupted” living plants that look fine on the outside but behave in an aggressive and adversarial manner.

Makes you wonder what the Pale Tree might have been like had Ventari’s Tablet not influence its growth… for good.

Your post seems to assume that the Ventari’s Tablet – a mere piece of stone with writing scrawled on it – is capable of preventing dragon corruption (something that can only be prevented by the Forgotten’s magic to all known Tyrians). I will like to note that nothing concretely says that the Nightmare Court, Great Jungle Wurm, or “other corrupted living plants” – or the Pale Tree – hold any ties to Mordremoth.

CureForLiving.5360:

It’s not really transformation so much as corruption. Semantics yes, but it might be more useful to think of it that way. In anycase Sylvari don’t show any physical corruption, Zhaitan can’t raise them, they can’t be branded etc. however mentally Sylvari are very susceptible to corruption. Nightmare Court being a good example. Although we’re fudging around a bit with corruption, since there’s a number of other theories regarding the Nightmare Court and there’s no tangible link between the Nightmare and Dragon Corruption.

Corruption. Transformation. Here, it’s the same thing. Dragon corruption twists both physically and mentally.

Sylvari DIE when touched by dragon corruption. When touched by draconic magic. This is why they cannot become risen or branded. Or whatever Mordremoth’s minions will end up being either, unless Mordremoth had found some work around that ‘immunity’.

The Nightmare Court lack a lot of distinctive things that make dragon minion mentality. Specifically their devotion to a dragon and praising it every other sentence.

Wanderer.3248:

The eye of Zhaitan isn’t humanoid at all. And the mouth of Zhaitan is bipedal, but it doesn’t look like it was ever human either.

The Eye of Zhaitan were all the kings and queen of Orr (outright stated by King Reza, whom was one). If you look closely at the model, you’ll note that the Eyes of Zhaitan are basically a unigender human body attatched to an anchor and holding a giant eyeball.

Mouths of Zhaitan seem to be a group of beings, including one greatly enlarged human (which is known to happen to dragon minions – the growing in size, that is) which serves as the main body (the others seem to be attached to its back/shoulders? And only partially? Not sure), with its gut twisted into an open mouth. It may have been norn or ogre, but it was once a living being that got twisted greatly, and given the speaking manner, Orrian sounds most likely.

Wanderer.3248:

Scarlet could pass as normal (from her appearance). She could wander around a city without attracting attention. That is highly unusual for a dragon champion. Dragon champions tend to stand out. Scarlet seems way too normal.

This is actually the best argument against it, as dragon corruption always includes physical changes alongside the mental ones. And in large amounts.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I do agree that it seems rather unlikely that Scarlet was a conventional dragon champion. I’m still not decided as to whether or not the entity is related to Mordremoth, and if it is, Scarlet is either directly or indirectly an agent, but champion entails A.) the largest degree of the dragon’s will, and B.) full control over the dragon’s minions. Scarlet was convinced she was still working for herself, so it seems unlikely she was a champion in that regard, and she had to go to quite a degree of effort to build an army, which wouldn’t be necessary for a champion. (For those who might point out that maybe Mordremoth doesn’t have an army yet, I would counter that corruption can be spread even when the dragon in question is sleeping, and even without a pre-existing pool, it would’ve made more sense for Scarlet to build up her army that way if the option was available.)

Do keep in mind that both Captain Whiting and the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan perform actions that would seem to be unbeneficial to Zhaitan. If one were to look at Kellach, whom had risen following around and following his orders and emotions, he was even more working against Zhaitan (I theorize he was a dragon champion corrupted indirectly via the artifact, resulting in lacking a completely decayed look – he was certainly discolored).

So I wouldn’t use “seemed to want to work against Mordremoth” as a counter to Scarlet being corrupted – or a potential dragon champion. The lack of using minions? Yes, though.

Wanderer.3248:

A champion level minion is not the same thing as a Dragon Champion. They’re just minions with defiant and a bigger hit point pool.

A dragon champion is a high ranking dragon with extremely high intelligence (compared to other dragons), the capability of leading other dragon minions (often full out armies – hence why they’re also often called lieutenants or generals), and a greatly increased capability of self-decision in their actions (we see some dragon champions act rather selfishly even though they still serve their dragon).

All dragon champions are represented in the form of legendary, epic, and only rarely champion ranks. But Morgus Lethe is outright called a dragon champion, and Captain Whiting shares all characteristics with them. Herboza is also outright called a dragon champion, and the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan similarly share all characteristics (as do the temple priests and the Wraithlord and High Priests from Arah explorable).

I actually disagree with the statement of the princes fitting the requriement of dragon champions – there seems to be, in general speaking, three “ranks” of dragon minions. Your grunts, your lieutenants, and your champions. Grunts are often mindless and will just swarm everything if not directed by a lieutenant and/or champion. Lieutenants I count as those who show sense of their self (like the majority of the Indomitable crew from Sea of Sorrows, and the Princes of Orr) but lack the ability to lead huge armies (but can lead small groups) and seem to believe their dragon favors them specifically. Champions are capable of leading armies, doing actions that could potentially harm their dragon, and perhaps most interestingly: the death of a champion causes its dragon to roar in pain, anger, or fear.

In mechanics, most of those I’d consider lieutenants (branded and destroyers having some members outright called “Lieutenant” hence why I use the term even though some dragon champions are called lieutenants) are shown as veternas, while most champions are ranked champion and up.

Korval.3751:

According to lore here are three examples of humanoid Elder Dragon champions.

Jormag
- The Nornbear

Zhaitan
- The Eye of Zhaitan
- The Mouth of Zhaitan

Incomplete. Zhaitan also had – outright stated – Morgus Lethe and Herboza the Wretched. Other humanoids sharing dragon champion traits include:

• Kudu’s Monster (successful attempt at making a dragon champion Kudu could control)
• Subject Alpha (first attempt at making a dragon champion Kudu could control)
• Captain Whiting (from SoS, human)
• Chieftain Kronon (from EoD, ogre)
• Victurus the Shattered (in Iron Marches, charr)
• Uldek the Fierce (ogre personal story, ogre)

Just to name those I can think of off the top of my head.

Korval.3751:

The fact that Scarlet was super intelligent and had the ability to assembly a large army from unlikely allies is a feat on the level of an elder dragon champion. Not even Tequatl or The Shatterer was able to assemble an army as large and diverse as Scarlet’s.

I disagree. Dragon champions are only capable of leading dragon minions. They are intelligent… but only compared to other dragon minions – some may be intelligent compared to the races, but those cases would be as uncommon as intelligent individual amongst the races.

Amassing a diverse army of multiple factions is not a feat on the level of a dragon champion, let alone the feat of one. That’s something the players had already done – in the form of the Pact.

Wanderer.3248:

She didn’t know where it was. She knew that it was on a ley line, and she poked the ley lines with a big stick. She didn’t create or alter the ley lines. If it was sitting on a key line, it was already feeding.

The evidence that she “fed” it is laughably thin. We saw it open it’s mouth. Dragons are know to do that for a variety or reasons. We all heard it roar.

While we know that the dragons feed on magic:

1. We actually cannot say that Scarlet didn’t know where Mordremoth is, nor can we accurately say that she didn’t move the ley lines.
2. Nothing says Mordremoth was “already feeding” – given the nature of hibernating dragons, it is more likely that the opposite is true – that magic was still seeping out of Mordremoth.
3. We outright know that Scarlet fed Mordremoth. That was the entire point of showing the blue magical energies from the ley line being sucked into Mordremoth’s maw as it woke up. I believe it got confirmed by a dev too.

Well it would only be those elementals – and not really “made from” but “infused with”.