Guild Wars 2

Plagiarised.2865:

Most of the lore in the game has not been recorded in the wiki, do don’t think that is all there is.

I cannot stress this enough, and this goes quadruply for GW2W.

As said, that emblem has been around since day 1 and is used for almost all bandit hideouts throughout the game. It’s known that the White Mantle exists, with Jennah pointing the Seraph towards the west (see the Brisban hearts), and from the orphaned storyline, we know that they back the bandits (we also know that, while appearing disjointed, the bandits are a united front allied with centaurs, Inquest, and Nightmare Court, backed by the White Mantle and certain Ministry members including Caudecus, and incorporates street gangs (even rival gangs) into their grunt members, said grunt members seem to be unknowing of the White Mantle presence and “innocently” viewing Jennah as a tyrant).

It’s a wide-spread and well hidden lore front. You’d need to do all human lvl 1-20 storylines, and talk to all the NPCs related to bandits and many of their events (for hearts, talk to NPCs both before and after completing hearts). As well as paying attention to the aesthetics like those emblems.

I think a bigger red flag would be Tiachren from the Shield of the Moon storyline. While Ysvelta acts with love and nobility in the Nightmare (not too dissimilar from Gavin), if you choose to defend Astorea instead of confronting Ysvelta, Tiachren will be turned to the Nightmare. Before such he speaks of honor and love overcoming all; but being converted, to quote him: “Let us celebrate our union with fire and blood. We’ll make the Pale Tree gorge herself upon the pain of these dreamers!”

This shows a very obvious personality change right to the players’ eyes, whereas all other Nightmare Courtiers were Courtiers as long as we, the players, have known them. Caithe, Morrigu, and others have known Courtiers before they fell to Nightmare and tell us that they’ve changed a lot, but we the players never see such states.

Looked through what I could.

Event in question is this one. Sadly, extremely rare unknown trigger, and the screenshot from it (if I still have it) is on my desktop. The Ecology of the Charr just says “the Khan-Ur” throughout the article (which implies a single Khan-Ur, to me). Couldn’t find the interview, so it is possible I misremember. But I’m pretty sure I saw mention of sayingth e first Khan-Ur’s children formed the legions.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

A lot of patience reading the wiki, and then a lot of time here to see what the wiki got wrong.

Pretty much this. We can give you lists of links for what to read to begin immersing yourself into the lore, which provides the main facts of the lore, but to know the whole lore you’d have to pretty much to talk to every NPC throughout both games, read a series of interviews and lore documents released out of game, and pretty much do every quest and event and personal story – because the wiki doesn’t have it all, not even all of GW1 lore still (though it’s probably over 95%). That’s pretty much what I’ve done – every quest and mission in GW1, every event, dungeon path, and personal story step in GW2, and talked to all NPCs at each step of each of the above. As well as having read as many out-of-game stuff as I could.

And also as Aaron said, if you have a question, ask.

I’m out if town on my phone so I cannot find the sources. Three sources I can think of outright was The Ecology of the Charr, Ghosts of Ascalon, a quiz event in Plains of Ashford (which has not been seen active since shortly after release – this event I recall seeing a mention of the first Ash Legion imperator was the first Khan-Ur’s spy master, though I may misremember but I got it screenshotted), and I believe a post-GoA interview with Jeff may mention the topic too.

I’ll be able to look for around a bit later tonight when I get my laptop.

Actually, we do know that there was only one Khan-Ur, though there had been many attempts. We know this as it is said in different places that the first Khan-Ur’s children and the last Khan-Ur’s children formed the Four Legions upon the Khan-Ur’s death.

No bars, I want largos and krait.

But of those likely to have a chance of becoming playable, aside from totally new races, there is only largos, kodan, and tengu to really choose from. Maybe Joko’s undead. Maybe.

Silalus.8760:

Vavume.8065:

Risen, I want an undead thief to add to my collection of thieves.

Kinda surprised there’s only one vote for this so far.

Why wouldn’t the death of Zhaitan perhaps leave a few of the undead with free will? Seems reasonable to me, and while it’s been done before the undead are usually mighty, mighty popular amongst players, creative or not…

Personally, though, I’d pay for a Skritt.

As seen in Arab explorable, Zhaitan’s defeat hasn’t altered the risen’s personality at all.

If people want undead, the only chance they have is Joko’s nation of living and undead in Elona.

The true release previews usually happens a week prior to the update. So that would be June 24th. Give it some time.

That said… Some trailers that they’ve done were massively spoiler-tastic. Which is highly annoying to me. I’d rather get nothing than spoiler leaks.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the Sons have also been shown to be able to force corruption on to others. But yeah in the case of Jormag it seems it needs to be initiated in some way.

The Sons forcing corruption onto others is little different than Necromancer Rissa from the charr storyline, whom forces Zhaitan’s corruption on the living (which slowly kills them without any apparent means of death). It seems by all accounts combined, that draconic corruption can corrupt in any form, but the Elder Dragons have a preference. Those whom are of enough self-decision (like the most powerful of dragon champions) and those whom handle the corruptive magic but are not corrupted (like the Inquest and Sons of Svanir) can use said corruption differently than the Elder Dragon prefers, but there is still that preference prevalent throughout the story and lore.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well he was asleep and probably at a very very low power state (since EDs lose magic while they sleep). We’ve also seen some examples (especially from Zhaitan) where simply being exposed to relics is enough to start the corruption (with no sign of Zhaitan willing it so).

The Elder Dragons don’t seem to exhibit any corruption while asleep – the asura have been around Primordus for who knows how long, the Six Gods around Zhaitan (and even pulling magic from it aroubd 1 BE/Year 0), and the charr around Kralkatorrik since before 100 BE, and there’s no traces of corruption around them at all (corruption doesn’t just dissipate over time unless it is forcibly removed, usually by still-unknown means).

Those objects of corruption you mention were corrupted after Zhaitan’s rise, and not just because of their proximity to a sleeping dragon.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the theory proposed here is in fact that they might not be human gods anymore…
Of course I don’t see why not, the humans praise them, the charr dislike them (since they helped the humans to steal there homeland), the asura would find them fascinating, the norn would probably just go on praying to the wind or whatever. Just not sure how the Sylvari would fit in.

They wer enever really the “human gods” – they were worshipped by the Forgotten too, and potentially centaurs and naga at some point.

And off topic, but Ascalon was not a charr homeland. The charr conquered it and lost it in the very same generation – known by the fact that the charr united together under the Khan-Ur’s early reign, and under his reign conquered what’s now the Blood Legion Homelands on the map, and Ascalon (the Ecology of the Charr says they swept north, east and then south, meaning that they basically did an n shape around the Blazeridge Mountains), and they lost Ascalon because they became disconcerted after the Khan-Ur’s assassination (suspected to have been by humans).

CureForLiving.5360:

Technically there was only 5 known gods… However it seems what defines someone was being a god is their ‘godly-essence’ which can be easily transferred to other being making them gods. Thus one can debate that there essence always exists and that there is always in some form or another 6 of gods (or more that we don’t know about). Unless they can mix-match-split…

I wouldn’t say “killing a god and letting his power become unstable and threaten all reality” is exactly ‘easy’. It was, for Abaddon because he was chained down and we were supposedly blessed (though not shown mechanically, I enjoy the notion that the dancing easter egg removed the blessing which allowed Abaddon to one-shot the entire party with his mind).

As to “mix-match-split” – I kind of view Lyssa a case of divine essence splitting, being being depicted as always together, there may have been consequences if so.

I think it may be a bit of both, honestly, but the Court has definitely changed from the original presentation and intended purpose which is also presented in some personal story steps – freeing the Pale Tree from the guidance of the Ventari Tablet so it can act on its own accord, and doing so by utilizing the Nightmare as a tool. Somewhere down the line (people say with Faolain in this thread but I think it started with Cadeyrn even given the very end of the blog post Dream and Nightmare where he talks about spreading the sylvari race’s power through violence and darkness), it turned from the original selfish “The Mother Tree will hear my voice, for I am the first of the Secondborn and thus important enough to be heard because I was first!” to the more noble “the sylvari will live the way we choose to, not follow the teachings of some other race who thinks they know how to live, for how can we believe them?” that was the original(?) high ranking courtiers (such as Gavin in the White Stag storyline, whom shuns the newer recruits like Sariel, a favored of Faolain, for her violent antics) to the new “we will spread darkness and bath in the blood of innocents!” that is the Nightmare-influenced Nightmare Court.

Zhaitan actually does seem to have control over spirits. Risen Wraiths seem to primarily be spectral, then there is the two confirmed cases of Zhaitan forcing souls into his Risen (and one confirmed case of him not), indicating that he can control spirits (or rather, imprison perhaps?) but doesn’t do so for all.

I would rather put Zhaitan as “Undeath” if one must go towards death/life ideal. But I think the most accurate would be “decay” as everything he and his minions corrupt decay, and everything the corruption touches but doesn’t corrupt becomes sickened (a result of decay, or more accurately, disease). Though it is interesting that all of his minions that preach of something other than Zhaitan, preach of immortality and reunions with loved ones through undeath (which would probably fit more with “life” than either death or undeath – and undeath can be viewed as bringing life into decayed flesh).

I figured the chains were wrapped around a bit at the top, rather than into. Like those jagged edges on the sides – just slip a loop around one per side and it’d be held up.

But my mental image of the tooth may be off.

The shrines in Nightfall were all manned by priests and spirits, and in the Echovald and Jade Sea, you’d need to earn the priest’s favor (or kill the priest, which indicates that the characters could activate it themselves somehow at that point).

Given that pre-Searing was created after the rest of the game, it wouldn’t surprise me if it was a piece of lore that was made late in Prophecies’ development. It should be noted in Prophecies that there are deactivated resurrection shrines – in pre-Searing, it’s just the one(s?) without a priest, but there was one in… Arid Sea I think, which wkittentered and non-functioning.

Then there’s the whole PvP (and Thirsty River) aspect to consider, where killing the priest shut down the shrine.

It feels like the resurrection shrine was a half-implemented piece of lore. Perhaps out of fear of trivializing death (but really, the half-implementing is what caused the trivializing of it).

Resurrection is indeed still in the lore – see Citadel of Flame… path 1 I think, with Magg and destroying the Eternal Flame at the end (and Gaheron’s ghost). They were attempting to resurrect Gaheron without the use of a body (or his body… or something). Something which Magg claims is unheard of, but that’s what Shiro Tagachi more or less did.

Resurrection is still possible, but exceedingly more difficult. So much so, it is thought impossible to resurrect nowadays, to the point where reviving (getting someone up from a defeated – aka unconscious and perhaps near death – state) is a learned skill (per NPCs of an often bugged event in Snowden Drifts; the multi-racial dolyak escort event heading to Snowden Haven).

Kalavier.1097:

The quaggan deity IS Melandru. (Or very much thought to be such). Quaggan simply are too polite to debate it in detail.

So human scholars believe and so Colin slipped up on saying – though whether this is the actual case, is still unknown. There is quite a difference between what they represent, though there’s a lot of overlap.

Kalavier.1097:

I think for spirits you mean Angvar’s Trove? That’s the norn one :P.

That would explain my confusion, since I never got a chance to see that one.

Kalavier.1097:

IIRC, Melandru actually has had no predecessor, and in some theories is thought to actually have come from another, completely different set of gods. She is the oldest of the six after all.

Melandru, Dwayna, Balthazar, Dhuum, Lyssa, and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor has no known predecessor to them. It is theorized that Melandru and Dwayna, both being represented as winged females alongside with the legend of the harpies being fallen servants of Dwayna and more importantly the many generic winged female statues in the Hall of Heroes, may have been part of the original pantheon – I strongly believe this theory, personally. Balthazar having parents makes him being of the original pantheon unknown – but his godly parent (if both weren’t) certainly most likely was/were. Dhuum is outright questionable and Abaddon’s predecessor is unknown fully except that it exists. Lyssa is outright stated to have unknown origins which leads to suspicion that she is not originally a god (and may even be Tyrian, I theorize).

My main theory (as I have about 4 or 5) about the gods is that the original gods were all winged females, including Balthazar’s mother (which shared parent between Balth and Menzies, idk, given how long he’s lasted Menzies is either a spirit, undead, or a demigod – or a demon for all we know). Of this generation I would also place the predecessors of Dhuum, Abaddon, and Lyssa. And I theorize that Balthazar, Dhuum, and Abaddon each ascended into godhood in the other world before Tyria, with Lyssa in Tyria (Abaddon is said to remember what happened byeond the Mists; Lyssa’s origins are outright called unknown/forgotten; Balthazar’s known to have come from the other world; Dhuum is outright a mystery).

Grenth is called the first Tyrian-born god, which puts a dent into the theory on Lyssa’s part, but again: her origins are outright stated to be unknown, and that spells foreshadowing of a reveal to me.

My second theory revolves around Arachnia and the insectoid gods who’s canonocity is unclarified. Third is the copies of the Mists theory I stated above… Forgot what the other I had was, or if it is even still viable now.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

If the Jotun became competitive to the six and got their magic taken away, it expectable that we do not talk about the six doing this. I got furthermore the impression that the six have carbon copies:
Melandru – Melagga (Quaggan), Balthazar – Badhasar (Grawl), Dwayna – , Lyssa – , Grenth/Dhuum – , Abaddon/Kormir –
A list might be interesting, but I have none.

Badazar is just a mispronunciation of Balthazar. The grawl worship natural objects of ambient magic (such as the Six Gods’ statues, like Balthazar’s) and powerful creatures (ice elementals, fleshreavers, icebrood, etc.) – they don’t really have a god.

And it’s Melaggan, not Melagga.

The list of non-human Tyrian gods are as follows:

• Melaggan (Quaggan, goddess of the sea’s bounty)
• Koda (Kodan, the Keeper of the Sky and Founder of the Earth)
• Zintl (Hylek, the Sun God)
• Great Dwarf (dwarf, maker of the dwarves)

I had humored a thought of mine and theorized in a recent thread discussing the Mists and how there are multiple Tyrias: what if the world the Six and humanity came from… was another Tyria, and that the Six are just copies of Melaggan and co with 2 unknowns (or perhaps it is orignially the Five, reason below).

• Koda fits Dwayna, being said to be the top being, a god whom made life, and is called like Dwayna the Keeper of the Sky.
• Melaggan fits Melandru because both are said to represent the wildlife and plantlife (though Melandru is more, being the land and not just underwater)
• Great Dwarf fits Balthazar, as both are about forgery and weapons
• Zintl fits Lyssa best, given the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance (though fits Dwayna just as well if not more so).

Thus we’re lacking an Abaddon and a Dhuum. But there is another possible lining up:

• Abaddon’s predecessor fitting Lyssa, as there is a lot of overlap seen with Abaddon and Lyssa in the Temple of the Forgotten God (aka Cathedral of Hidden Depths) with lies, deception, illusions, and mesmerism.

But this would thus leave Zintl and Dhuum lacking. Unless we take Koda, a god above the world’s spirits, to be the equal of Dhuum, the god of death. Though I feel that’s a mighty big stretch and am more idealized than the idea of two more gods unknown to us that fit the original Six more perfectly.

There are also the Spirits of the Wild and the other worldly spirits (such as Urgoz, a forest spirit, and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit, with hints of a Crab spirit alongside Zhu Hanuku).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

It get’s even worse if I take the spirits in concernation, because animals (not all but some) are tied to the spirits. Some seem double (bear, wolf), some are suspected to be spirit (wurm, dragon), some are exiled (minotaur, …), some are dead (owl, ?eagle?) and and and. Langmar estate lists 8 inside guarded by a legendary drake, but we have just 4 represented in Hoelbrack.

Humans would consider the Spirits gods (some, at least; others would place them under Melandru’s domain), and norn would consider the Six to be Spirits of Action.

Dragon is not a spirit, and Wurm is – but a minor one. Minotaur is not exiled, but was forgotten about. Eagle is not dead, but lost like Wolverine and Ox. I don’t know of what 8 spirits you speak of being defended by a legendary drake in Langmar Estate – can’t say I’ve ever seen a legendary drake there and the only “eight spirits” I can think of possibly would be maybe the statues? But there’s nine of those…

They could have had deactivated resurrection shrines remodified by asura into the waypoint system after resurrection failed to work any longer. :P

From the tooth you can see blueish-whitish ice-colored mist flowing out of the top of it, iirc.

But I see no reason why it would result in corruption (e.g., turning the surroundings into that blue/black shimmering ice stuff) since the magic in the tooth would have to have been geared for corrupting as it was broken off (presumably, given the nature of non-corrupting dragon pieces and corrupting Orrian relics).

If the tooth was corrupting, the norn wouldn’t have kept it nearby – they’d have it isolated and guarded and few if anyone would try to break it because getting near it would mean you’d possibly turn into an icebrood.

Resurrection shrines were really just a platform and a couple pillars. Some were wood too, which would have rotten away. The stone could have been buried by time or been removed to make way for new things.

It is a bit odd that we don’t see any of them in the world but I’m going to bet it is a case of “oversight”.

Jormag’s method of corruption differs greatly from the other Elder Dragons’ in that he tries to seduce his would-be victims with promises of power, worthiness, glory, and other things.

Furthermore, corruption has been shown to be an active intention, and not all magic of the Elder Dragon corrupts. For example, the blood of Kralkatorrik as well as a spear made from his spine do not corrupt but are highly magical (as seen in Edge of Destiny). The Sanguinary Blade is actually rather unique in the whole “corruption” part in regards to pieces of the Elder Dragons being used as weapons/objects.

So it isn’t unusual for the tooth to be non-corrupting, even if there’s magic left in it.

1) We’ve already seen female centaurs, so I guess that drops down to four. Also, they are said to be a black race, with questionable swimming animation possibilities, and even harder armor designs. ArenaNet has also said a long while ago that centaurs won’t be a playable race – they don’t want them as such (though this can change).
2) Krait are evil and were made to be a pure black race. ArenaNet has stated multiple times that the players will always play the hero. Krait race won’t be possible. Not to mention armor designs. As cool as it would be, won’t happen.
3&4) Skritt and quaggan are racial sympathies and don’t fit several qualities a playable race needs – numbers, advancement, large cultural diversity, and large territory.
5) Can work.
6) Can work, but we’ve seen female tengu – they basically look like male tengu, but larger and fluffier feathers.

This said, a long while ago – 2010 or ‘11 I think – someone from ArenaNet put up a checklist that the devs use when considering new professions and races. The minor races do not fit this checklist (unfortunately, I cannot find it again…), and neither do any of the enemy races. Largos, tengu, kodan may, in regards to Tyrian races. But I think that’s all there.

When talking about non-Tyrian races, I can see a few that we’ve met which have a chance, depending on the circumstances:

• Naga from Cantha (for the snake race lovers)
• Wardens (depending on what they were originally but may be too similar to sylvari and humans)
• Heket (no, not hylek)
• Joko’s Undead, but unlikely since it’s not really a race (but I can see it happening).

And that’s it really. No other race really stands a chance at becoming playable, and even then those four are very unlikely – Joko’s Undead having the strongest chance, despite how I’d love to play a naga.

Maxing gauntlets out on Tyre Ragemaw is a good way to get rid of them (or if you want that bonus chest, one ticket to fight each enemy once a day – minimum of 12 tickets a day, many tokens; add on gauntlets to get rid of them faster) and get the chances (even if you’re only getting tokens out of them) if you don’t want to save the tickets for next year.

Otherwise, you can just delete them.

Myself, I got about 60 after I emptied myself out on the third or so week and intend on saving them (and any more I get, up to a full stack) for next year in case it’s improved or there’s finally incentive to get the last 2 achievements.

This said, it would be nice if we can just merch them and buy them for the same price (instead of paying 35 tokens and getting 1 back for winning aside from the bonus chest…….).

Weindrasi.3805:

I agree that it’s unlikely there would be peaceful centaurs. However, if the Maguuma centaurs are separate from the armies ruled by the Modniir, they may be willing to work with us if forced to it—perhaps to combat Mordremoth’s minions, or Modniir who would enslave them. Perhaps we’ll see a centaur character similar to Zhed from Nightfall.

The Maguuma centaurs are/were the Harathi.

So changes done to the Modniir are most likely irrelevant when talking about centaurs in the Maguuma, since they come from the Shiverpeaks. It would be changes to the Harathi that would matter most on this topic.

I think he was part of the hive mind. He had a small army of risen following him and following his commands, whether he realized it or not. That is a Dragon champion’a abilities. And dragon minions seem to fight anything not tied to their hive mind – unless ordered otherwise by a champion (exception bring the mid-tiered minions I call lieutenants, whom seems to have control over a group small than a handful, unlike champions and Kellach who can have dozens, like Kellach, or hundreds like the Dragonspawn).

You are clearly not interested in an actual discussion if all you took from my latest posts was “an hour screaming that I’ve insulted him” since that was only a minor point. And you don’t even seem to get why I was insulted – the insult wasn’t in saying I wasn’t right. It was in claiming I provided no evidence, that I was calling everyone wrong, and doing so without backing myself up. That was the insult, and I thought I made it pretty clear.

Since you, once again, ignored all the evidence I provided and continue to detract this discussion to be about me and not my argument, I feel that there is nothing to be gained from further discussion with you. If you demand I provide evidence and then ignore the fact I provided it, then the only one at fault here is you.

And for the record, only you have really called me wrong. Wanderer called you wrong, and Korval merely said that he can’t be wrong since it is based on postulations (effectively).

And lastly, I have been trying to discuss the topic at hand. Every post or group of posts of mine discusses the topic sans this one and one before when I didn’t have time to respond in full. You on the other hand, have only discussed me and how I debated, ignoring my actual argument over the topic.

Edited previous post to elaborate what I meant.

And Korval, I have been countering your theories with evidence, not theories (and, as mentioned in edited post above, hypotheticals just like you support your theory with hypotheticals).

Honestly, it sounds like you are the one not listening – or “getting the point.”

I have not focused on “B” (whom the entity is) but rather your support for “A” and “C”. Because we just don’t know whom B is. But I won’t repeat my arguments again.

I can focus on whom B is. But I did that a long time ago elsewhere, and the bottom line was “we have no kittening clue.” It could be Dhuum. It could be Mordremoth. It could be a powerful demon unknown to us. It could be Lazarus. It could be Inquest. All are possibilities – strong possibilities at that. But we have no clue. No indication. Nothing to really say what’s what. Because we don’t know an incling of what Scarlet’s true intention was – or what the entity’s intention is. We have to little to argue such.

So I have focused on the pretense of sylvari being corruptable, and sylvari being dragon minions from birth. Never on who the entity is. Never on whether or not Scarlet was corrupted (because that in itself relies on sylvari being corruptable). Your previous post was not the argument I had focused on in your prior posts.

Honestly, it feels like there are five different discussions going on. The one Tipper is having, the one I’m having, the one you’re having, the insults Tipper throws at me, and you defending the wrong logical deduction you made against me (wrong as in, not the one I’m talking about).

Please don’t focus on a single sentence. Go read the whole post, or at least individual response.

Yes, you found evidence. But that evidence in turn got weakened or outright debunked (such as Glint as an example) by posts of mine or others, and the only response I saw to mine was “well, you can’t prove that you’re right, therefore I’m not wrong.” Which isn’t a proper argument.

You said that “the evidence for Mordremoth, the Sylvari and Scarlet is simply lacking” – but yet I countered each argument of yours, and recieved no rebuttle except for the lack of sylvari being known previously which was just what I said above – you saying “you cannot prove that they weren’t around, so therefore it is possible.” Sure, but by that argument, I can make it just as possible that:

1. Balthazar and Grenth are half-brothers, with Dwayna as a shared mother.
2. Grenth is out to kill/usurp all the gods.
3. Grenth and Menzies is the same individual.

I can go about this by stating that both Balthazar and Grenth are known to have a parent and Balthazar’s known to have a half-sibling while Grenth was originally a half-god. Grenth usurped Dhuum and is said to have, since he was the son of Dwayna, Grenth gifted the world with death, that they might understand there were consequences to their actions. Furthermore, when Abaddon was killed in Nightfall, Olias says that Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did. We will not hear from Abaddon again in this lifetime… or the next.

Grenth and Menzies being the same derives from this interest in wiping out the gods. Both Grenth and Menzies share qualities of darkness and destruction, as well as holding reign over Nightmares (certain Nightmares are native to the Underworld, and the Shadow Army is comprised of Nightmares); and if Menzies were to be a split personality of Grenth, then Grenth would be mad. Grenth being a half-god and half-brother to Balthazar comprises of Dwayna being the shared parent, with Balthazar’s father being killed by unknown means and reasons, and why Dwayna – thus a widow – turned to Malchor for comfort (her love being dead, she found a new love).

Grenth allying with Abaddon and Dhuum under the guise of Menzies, while trying to overthrow his half-brother Balthazar, was part of further overthrowing the gods.

This all cannot be refuted, there is no evidence to counter it. Thus it is just as strong (or rather, flimsy, because all of this relies on hypotheticals, just like the “sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions” and “Mordremoth corrupted Scarlet” theories) argument as your own theory. But the thing is that there is evidence to counter the evidence for the theories you’ve presented. And I presented these pieces of evidence – as well as new hypotheticals – and you’ve only responded to the new hypotheticals, not the countering evidence. Just like Tipper.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig,

Once again you misrepresent the affects of corruption when you say that corruption cannot be fought and the the corrupted individual’s mind is fully fanatic to the corrupting dragon.

You know this isn’t true, yet you keep repeating it.

Sincerely,

Kellach

Kellach was a unique case who’s situation isn’t fully known. Zhaitan is normally seen only corrupting corpses, and Kellach was being corrupted by an artifact – if he was being corrupted at all. It should be noted that throughout Sparkfly Fen, we see risen corruption spread in many of the hearts, and what happens to those who go near it – or digest it – is that they get sick, which is curable. Which is odd and unique unto Zhaitan’s corruption (but falls into the slowly killing before corrupting relics that Necromancer Rissa used, and would match Kellach pretty well).

But I suspect Kellach was being corrupted and it isn’t just a case of “eating Risen doesn’t corrupt outright, but sickens you first until death then corrupts.” I suspect he was turned into a dragon champion – and as we see, dragon champions, though still serving and enslaved to the dragon, have their own degree of choice in their actions. He also seemed to be slowly being corrupted, only having real control over his actions halfway through that plot – otherwise, would he really go to kill Jennah? It makes more sense that him willingly going after Jennah’s life was part of the corruption – Zhaitan on many occasions targets threats and potential threats, and Jennah is one such potential threat.

El loco Lobo.4863:

1. By my account (and correct me if i’m wrong) they wake from hibernation to eat their fill and go back in to hibernation.
2. Each dragon has it’s own element thats seems to corrospond with the gods in some way or another up to now (except maybe Dwayna).
3. Until their masters awaken the minions seems to be somewhat dormant and become active when the time of their masters awakening comes near.
4. We know that there are 6 dragons, as far as we know, but most of the information comes from races that fought against single dragons (dwars v.s. the destroyer).

Given what we see from dragon minions, while 1 is correct in what we’ve seen them do, it isn’t what they want. They want to rule the world, but with six Elder Dragons out there, they run out of food too fast.

2 is far from true, really. While the gods do hold an element in their aspects, this is something that has been passed around amongst them – Dhuum didn’t have ice, but Grenth does; Abaddon had water, but Kormir doesn’t and now Lyssa does (she originally didn’t). It’s really Kormir and Dwayna that are without an equivilant Elder Dragon, and Grenth has two (unless you count Zhaitan to Dwayna); and likewise, Kralkatorrik has no equivilant god. A better way to look at the aspects of the gods is what is passed down – or what the norn refer to them by. War, Knowledge, Death, Life (Melandru and Lyssa are unknown what they’d be exactly – likely nature and beauty given the “Spirits of Action” nickname the norn give them).

3. They seem to remain around after, going off of various loose dialogues, with exception of some champions that act as “heralds” for them – and it seems to be one champion each. The other minions either go into hibernation as well and aren’t heard from, or remain active the entire time (until death). The herald for Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and the DSD are unknown, but chances are for Zhaitan it’d be The Maw (seen in Sea of Sorrows) or the Risen Giganticus Lupicus (from Arah explorable) – but again, isn’t clear.

4. Actually the mention of six Elder Dragons come solely from the jotun, whom have records of five races fighting against six Elder Dragons, and creation myths of a “sextant of swallowers” that destroyed the world several times over. Dwarven legends contains information of Primordus, Jormag, and Zhaitan (they even have relics of Jormag). But the other three have no known records aside from Glint (and possibly via Glint, the Forgotten) which is only for Kralkatorrik. Mordremoth and the DSD have no known records other than the jotun numbering 6 Elder Dragons. There are minor hints of Kuunavang being a dragon champion (been said to be akin to Glint on multiple occasions even after Glint was revealed to be a dragon champion), and she doesn’t fit any of the six known ED portfolios though (Rotscale is also hinted at having been akin to Kuunavang and Glint).

El loco Lobo.4863:

The seeds of the pale tree was found in a cave and protected by monsters.
Those monsters could have been the “gardeners” in-charge of planting the seeds so that Mord has an army of slaves at his disposal when he awakens.

Since he seems to be the dragon tied to Melandru, Goddess of nature … and GROWTH
it is not unlikely that he has the capability to grow his own minions.

And it is true that the seeds had been planted roughly 250 yeas ago, but didn’t vetari pick that spot because of special reasons, wich in turn could have given the Pale Tree it’s protection to the dragons will (some spot used for a dragon cleansing ritual or something).

The Melandru bit is irrelevant, but your statement is the typical argument. And it fails to answer some key questions:

• Why aren’t the sylvari born corrupted?
• Why are the sylvari immune to dragon corruption (dragon minions are not)?
• Why are they driven – even the Nightmare Court – to slay all the dragons?
• WHy do the sylvari lack a hive mind, one of the shared characteristics of dragon minions? Why are they not fantic to a dragon, another shared characteristic of dragon minions?
• Why is Malyck, whom is not tied to the Dream nor the call to kill Elder Dragons (which comes from the Dream) nor to the Pale Tree, lacking a hive mind or fanaticism?

Ventari didn’t pick the spot, btw. Ronan, the one who found the seed, did, and the tree was planted over the graves of his family and village.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes, there is knowledge of the other 4 and their minions. Bubbles and Mordy aren’t actually ever mentioned. Neither are their minions. Doesn’t mean the knowledge did not exist at some point and was lost. Although, perhaps because the knowledge doesn’t exist, neither do they. That’s the logic you’re applying here. Since no one remembers, it can’t possibly have happened… because someone would have remembered.

There is knowledge of six Elder Dragons that the Priory and Inquest know, and the Master of Whispers – and Trahearne – makes outright mention of four more targets for them. The Pact is also allied with the quaggan whom were pushed out of the Unending Ocean, and Trahearne to Sayeh who’d know of the DSD.

While the DSD is never mentioned to players outside its approximate awakening time, and the fact it pushed the quaggan and krait out of their homes, (and arguably, karka and largos), it is mentioned indeed to the NPCs.

The NPCs know of six Elder Dragons and their corruptive ways. The Order of Whispers had spies in the Inquest whom we know had likely obtained samples of Mordremoth’s corruption; and Zojja took their research as well. Why it was said to be four more to go is unknown – they likely view either Mordremoth or the DSD as a non-threat (at the time), but they know of all six and their corruption.

Yet no mention by NPCs at the possibility. No records of sylvari-like creatures. Don’t you find this strange? Almost as if… there is no connection.

Oh, and may logic wasn’t “since no one remembers it didn’t happen” but rather “it’s beyond questionable that ‘no one knows’ given all the hints we have at it being known!”

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sure, if you really want to go out there with it… it could have Kanaxai. Or maybe it was Menzies, reaching out from FoW. Or Dhumm trying to touch the world again to break free from his UW prison. Hell, maybe it was the Mad King. Or any other random entity, and it all miraculously culminated in the waking of Mordy.

Dhuum has actually done this sort of thing before.

And both the Inquest and mursaat have (attempted in the Inquest’s case) tried to leave the world to the Elder Dragons’ slaughter while they escape to the Mists in order to return when the Elder Dragons go to sleep.

Lazarus and Dhuum are, IMO, just as likely as Mordremoth – since both of them are tied to darkness, and Lazarus to forests (the White Mantle being based to the west), and Belinda’s hint does point to the Sinister Triad or at least bandits (whom are part of said Sinister Tried, and White Mantle, ergo to Lazarus).

Lazarus and Inquest also makes sense with drax’s point of putting forces against each other. As it would be a plan of putting the nations against the Elder Dragons and hoping they wipe each other out.

CETheLucid.3964:

This isn’t exactly cut and dry either. There are a choice few Sons of Svanir who were indeed Sons of Svanir, who have returned from this corruption of the heart and mind.

At a certain point (icebrood status), I do suspect it is impossible (short of Forgotten magic, at least mental wise ala Glint).

But there are Sons of Svanir who have come back from what most think is an impossible returning point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rojan_the_Penitent

Most Sons of Svanir aren’t corrupted, and those that are, are typically the shamans.

Given Rojan’s dialogue when the Claw shows up, he is likely in a constant battle of the mental persuasion that borderlines him to being corrupted. As it feels similar to Jora and Zojja’s lines.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And I’m not saying that all plant creatures are his minions.

Your argument – or rather, that part of it – was “sylvari are plants, Mordremoth’s minions are plants, therefore sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions.” Which doesn’t really fit. It’d be like saying Embers are Primordus’ minions because they’re made of fire.

Such an argument holds no water.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

We know that Kralk has been experimenting with corrupting pregnant creatures to see
if they can birth corrupted babies. The seeds could have come from a previously corrupted entity.

Sure, our sylvari aren’t fanatical, but how do we know that all others aren’t? How many trees are out there? Yes, you can cite Malyck again, but he can hardly make the case for all others considering he can’t even tell you where his tree is.

Erm, no Elder Dragon hasb en “experimenting” – we see risen whom were pregnant when corrupted and their children were corrupted, but we don’t se such (outright at least) for branded or others. But this isn’t a case of “experimentation”.

But if the seeds were corrupted, then why are they no longer so? Even if – and that’s a big if given that we know nothing about non-Pale Tree sylvari beyond Malyck, which should be enough evidence for his tree at the least since your argument works on the foundation that all non-Pale Tree sylvari trees are corrupted, which means he would be born corrupted too – even if non-Pale were corrupted minions, why isn’t the Pale Tree and her sylvari?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It’s not necessarily true that they would have needed to be purified via the forgotten. That is the only way we know of, but that still does not mean that there aren’t others. Beyond that, we really don’t know how Mordy’s corruption works, if it could be fought or not. Scarlett seemed to be fighting it while she was still Ceara, based on the information we have available to us.

Nonetheless, they’d need to be purified somehow.

Corruption in general cannot be fought. Jeff Grubb stated a couple times that Elder Dragons and their minions are “similar but different” – in that they all share the same similarities, but where there’s a difference between two, the difference is between them all. Amongst the similarity is that once corrupted, there is no return (sans the Forgotten ritual, to all knowledge) and that it cannot be fought, and it enslaves the will of the individual.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Mordy does seem to show some tendency for persuasion, or at least mentally battering his victim.

I don’t see how you can simply rule it out as out of hand when we simply don’t know. There is very little information to make a true judgement one way or the other. You can make assumptions based on how the other dragons work, but they all work differently, which throws monkey wrench in the works when it comes to assumptions.

Because of point above. Jeff Grubb said each Elder Dragon is similar but different. If Jormag is unique to four Elder Dragons (arguably five, since the Order of Whispers know of either Mordremoth or the DSD – which is unclear, but it is clear they knew of five as of the end of the Personal Story) then why wouldn’t he be to the other two (or last one)? Mordremoth’s potential show of mental persuasion is no more different than Kralkatorrik fighting back mental invasions into his mind by Jennah and Snaff by all indication.

And that outright relies on the entity being Mordremoth. Your entire point of Mordremoth’s mental persuasion (hardly persuasion IMO) falls apart if the entity wasn’t Mordremoth.

Korval.3751:

Which suggests that the Sylvari are already corrupted (or “Branded”). But since they’re guided by the Pale Tree (their “master”) their actions would seem to show that they are not actively working for any elder dragons. They cannot be owned by any of the known elder dragons, but Mordremoth appears to be different.

1. Or they’re living weapons designed to counter the Elder Dragons (regardless of source).
2. Or the land they live in was steeped in Forgotten magic (we know the Forgotten once lived on the Tarnished Coast).
3. Or it is their connection to the Dream that gives them their ‘immunity’.
4. Or any number of things, really, since we don’t yet know why Forgotten magic was uncorruptable and apparently indestructible to the dragons, nor do we know why Vorpp mentioned the Dream when talking about Scarlet, nor do we know if sylvari can even be corrupted by Mordremoth.

Your (you and Tipper’s) theories are based off of unknowns. My counter arguments are based off of pieces of evidence and statements by developers.

Apologies for the multiple posts, but that dang character limit. Anyways, Tipper, PLEASE don’t ignore my posts and lead to insult me. Read my posts in full, including the three at the top of this page (page 2) before you reply, because I have supplied my evidence, if not by link then by direction, before and now.

Tipper.7354:

In fact, I’d say it’s evidence to support that cross-corruption is not supposed to happen: It took the full might of the Inquest to create exactly two hybrids, those being Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha, and both were unstable monstrosities that were too insane to be controlled. If all you had to do to create a hybrid is rub a shard of Corrupted Ice against a Destroyer, the Inquest would’ve figured that out in five minutes in their quarters in Rata Sum, not built an entire Dungeon around it.

Kudu’s Monster was actually perfectly stable and controllable. And I don’t see how this is evidence that it isn’t supposed to happen. Nor was the full might of the Inquest needed.

I think a bit more is needed than using a shard of corrupted ice rubbed against a destroyer. After all, contact with physically corrupted things does not corrupt outright – it’s the magic within the corrupted objects or beings that corrupt. We see in Crucible of Eternity that the Inquest are using beams of corrupted energies to create dragon magic – it is likely that is how they made Alpha and Kudu’s Monster (and Kudu when he got transformed – there’s three hybrids, not two).

But just because we only see it in Crucible of Eternity doesn’t mean it cannot happen naturally – just that we haven’t seen it happen naturally yet. At best, it is a case of “it has to be the will of the Elder Dragon to corrupt another dragon minion” – and the Elder Dragons are not stated to be enemies, so why start a fight just because you’re not allied?

However, it should be noted that the point of the Crucible of Eternity wasn’t just simply to make a hybrid of dragon energies. It was to make an army of controllable dragon minions and a perfectly controllable dragon champion – this is what Kudu’s Monster was (and what Subject Alpha was meant to be, but Alpha proved uncontrollable). It wasn’t just to make a hybrid. It was to make a hybrid Kudu could control. And all three things (making a hybrid, making a dragon minion army, and making a champion that can be controlled) cannot be done in Rata Sum or the like.

Tipper.7354:

In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.

It’s got nothing to do with not liking each other. Most dragon minions are outright mindless and will attack ANYTHING that isn’t part of their hive mind on sight.

Also: the Forgotten’s magic has, as I have said about a baker’s dozen times now, resistance to corruption. Possibly the dwarves when turned to stone too, given their constant battle with Primordus. And the Foefire ghosts, given their lack of corruption to the Dragonbrand.

Tipper.7354:

What happened with Glint is very interesting, but the only thing it proves is that a Champion can break free of its Master’s influence. The rest is circumstantial evidence at best.

You just don’t listen… she had external influence and could only break free because of that. And it isn’t unique to champions – something I forgot to mention to now – but to even mindless grunt of a dragon minion.

And again, only using a ritual powered by the magic that was incorruptible for unknown reasons.

Tipper.7354:

The popular theory with the Pale Tree, as I’ve understood it, was that when Ronan took the tree far from where Mordremoth slept, distance and the Dragon’s slumber weakened its control because it wasn’t exerting direct influence.

Once corrupted, you cannot return. This is something pointblank made throughout the game – from Caledon Forest to Cursed Shore. Only the Forgotten ritual, which was an outright breakthrough, is capable of freeing dragon corruption. Distance holds no relevance, as we see how we have dragon minions far, far away from their master (icebrood in Metrica, risen in Fireheart Rise and Plains of Ashford) but they never regain themselves of the like.

Tipper.7354:

When the Tree grew, it grew with the teachings of Ventari, and attained empathy along with its natural sentience.

A mere tablet cannot undo magical enslavement.

Tipper.7354:

Of course there is no evidence, but since we have no idea how the Pale Tree works, or how Mordremoth works, it would be utterly pointless to demand any. That’s just the theory – and it’s the popular theory, I don’t take credit for inventing it.

Your argument stems off of “we don’t know” – but the sad fact of the matter is that we do know, even if only to a degree. And what we know discredits your “popular theory”.

Tipper.7354:

As for the Sylvari’s immunity to corruption, that’s well-established, and it’s obviously something that no other race has shown, which is why they’re so special. Dragon Minions in general are stated to be hostile to one another – “Elder Dragons appear to be hostile to each other, as their minions will fight another dragon’s minions just as they would fight any living creature.” We’ve never seen a single instance of cross-corruption despite the Dragon Minions swarming Tyria in their tens of thousands. And even if one could, that would sort of shatter the idea that once you’re corrupted, you serve that Dragon for the rest of your existence.

That line comes from an interview with Ree Soesbee in which she says if they stumble upon each other, different kinds of dragon minions (e.g., risen, branded, etc.) will attack one another. But we don’t see cross-corruption because we don’t see them interacting. Except for Crucible of Eternity.

Where there are destroyers, you never see icebrood, branded, or risen. Where there are risen, you never see icebrood, branded, or destroyers. Where there are icebrood, you never see branded, destroyers, or risen. Where there are branded, you never see destroyers, icebrood, or risen. That is why we don’t see it. There is zero evidence to support the claim that dragon minions are immune to corruption of other Elder Dragons.

Tipper.7354:

It’s a conversation about theories and hypotheticals, and you’re trying to make it about who’s right and who’s wrong. And it’s obnoxious. Either enjoy the conversation for what it is, or let the rest of us enjoy it, but for the love of God stop attacking everyone who doesn’t agree with you.

I’m not attacking others. I’m attacking their theories. Which is what everyone does – except you, you’re just attacking me. Please stop, and read my posts for once, will you?

Korval.3751:

Hi Konig. One of the beautiful things about this game is that you can have your ideas about what’s going on and I have my ideas. Neither of us are wrong because this is fan lore and speculation.

Theories are only such after taking a hypothesis and finding evidence to support it. When a lack of evidence is what’s found, or evidence pointing against the hypothesis is found, one goes back and revises the hypothesis. You, Tipper, and a lot of others are stuck at finding evidence to make it a theory, because the evidence used is countered and you don’t alter the hypothesis to work around the countering of the evidence. Only one person I have seen – Taimas – has attempted this, and made a reasonable and sound explanation for it. That explanation being that the sylvari could be a weapon created in the previous cycle to function akin to dragon minions similar to how the stone dwarves seem to function akin to dragon minions after the Rite of the Great Dwarf.

The thing is, if there’s evidence against a hypothesis, then it can be disproven, without someone else’s take of the evidence being proven. So in that, you’re also rather incorrect. I don’t want to create hostilities but don’t hold the stance of “if you cannot prove yourself right, you cannot prove me wrong” because that is just incorrect.

Tipper.7354:

Well, with regards to Glint breaking free of Kralkatorrik’s control, the problem is that we don’t know enough. And I know, seems like I’m flogging the dead horse there, but consider. We don’t actually know how Kralkatorrik’s control works. We don’t know how that control was broken. We don’t know what, exactly, the Forgotten did to free Glint. We don’t know how Glint’s mind worked after being freed. We don’t know if Glint could have been enslaved again. We don’t know if what happened was specific to being Branded, or specific to the Forgotten Ritual, or specific to being Glint herself. So we have literally no idea how, exactly, a Champion can break free under any other circumstances. The only thing that we have solid evidence for is that it can happen, and that in Glint’s case, it did.

1. We do know how Kralkatorrik’s corruption works. Edge of Destiny details is multiple times (sadly, I’m out of town thus don’t have the books on me to quote for you).
2. We do know what the Forgotten did to free Glint (and as such, how the control was broken – a ritual). We recreate the ritual in Arah Forgotten path to do the same to a Risen Chicken.
3. We do have a glimpse to what Glint’s mind was like after being freed, based on her wording in Edge of Destiny.

The only thing we don’t know is “can Glint be recorrupted” – but the above linked twitchtv livestream I believe brings up Glint’s baby and whether it can be corrupted or not, and their response, if memory serves me right, indicates that Glint couldn’t be but the situation for the baby is unclear. But this doesn’t mean “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by another dragon” but rather holds two possibilities:

• A dragon minion freed by the Forgotten ritual cannot be re-corrupted by any dragon.
• An Elder Dragon cannot “double” corrupt.

Note that I’m not 100% sure on the wording of the livestream though. Listen to it yourself and see what you think.

In order of posting:

Tipper.7354:

Here’s the three things that we do know, and the only things we know.

- The Sylvari are a very new race that are unlike anything seen in Tyria before, and their origins and nature are a mystery even to them.
- The Pale Tree is a unique being of immense power, but while its geographical origins are known, literally nothing else is.
- Mordremoth is a complete unknown as to the style and nature of his minions, corruption, and personal power.

We. Don’t. Know. Anything. Else.

I disagree.

• We know that the Dream of Dreams is made of ether and memories (source: A Light in the Darkness, talk to Trahearne after the portal is open but before entering); similarly we know it is not a hive mind (source: Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, don’t have exact page but before they leave for Ebonhawke), and a hive mind is what the dragon minions have (source: Jeff Grubb here )
• We know that there is at least one other Pale Tree, ergo not unique (source: Where Life Goes sylvari storyline), that it was guarded by pre-existing plants (source: The Movement of the World ). We also know that there are many sentient and mobile plant creatures in the world.
• We know that Mordremoth’s power deals with soil and most likely vegetation (source: Subject Alpha and Experimental Green Lab).
• We know that sylvari cannot be corrupted by dragon corruption.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Tipper.7354:

The main basis of most of your arguments is comparing to other things in Tyria. Different trees compared to the Pale Tree. Different Champions compared to other Champions. But none of that is remotely relevant. What you’re doing is saying that a different character, in a different plotline, under different circumstances, was probably different to something we don’t know anything about yet.

You should read through my posts before insulting me some more.

I am comparing similarly categorized creatures (the individual dragon champions) because they are of the same category (dragon champion) for similarities, and then taking those shared similarities and comparing to the Pale Tree. Which lacks those similarities. As Jeff Grubb said (paraphrasing), the Elder Dragons and their champions are similar, but also different. Find the similarity that spans most of them, and you find the similarity that spans all of them. And I pointed out those similarities – and again, pointed out that the Pale Tree lacked such. Jeff Grubb said such, btw, in both the above linked Guru2 post as given to us players by Stephane Lo Presti, as well as during a twitchtv livestream which can be found still here.

Tipper.7354:

You, on the other hand, are attacking other people by saying their evidence is not good enough, when there is no existing standard for “Good Enough.” You’re making irrelevant comparisons which fail to address any relevant points. You’re taking a hypothetical situation where we cannot possibly know what is right, and telling others that they are wrong, and you have no evidence to back that up.
You can’t prove others wrong without you being proven right. And you are not right. You can’t be. Nobody can – and I am aware this includes me. But instead of attacking others whose theories are different to mine, I’m trying to have a civil conversation about this topic.

Firstly, again, read my posts before you insult me. Because I have provided evidence. Do not say I haven’t when I did. Let me link to you the posts in which I did such. Posts you’ve still ignored. Posts in this thread, at the top of this page (page 2).

You’re the one insulting others.

Secondly, it is possible to prove someone wrong without being proven myself right if I’m not taking (or rather, stating) a stance, but that’s semantics.

A lot of Thruln’s lines are questionable, so I am doubtful that there were gods even in the first place for the jotun. It is a heavy point made that the jotun are very prideful, greedy, and vain. They – even their ancestors – do not worship gods, but their own ancestors and themselves (see jotun blogpost) It is also heavily made – more so than the previous point – that the jotun’s fall was because of this very pride and greed, that they turned on themselves because the jotun as a race ran out of enemies. And this is even brought up and shown to us by the very last giant-king, and ancestor to Thruln the Lost during the norn personal story step Echoes of Ages Past.

The chances of Thruln the Lost telling a false history is extremely high. If there is any truth to him talking about the jotun losing magic it either came when the Seers created the original Bloodstone, or when the Six Gods reduced magic from the world at a whole after it was given too freely.

In Ghosts of Ascalon, Killeen creates a skeletal minion in the beginning, and uses a fresh Ebon Vanguard corpse for a minion later one. They are not autonomous, but you get full-body undead, so to speak.

In GW1, we saw necromancers (such as Oberan) make autonomous full-body undead minions. Though I think Oberan is the unique case and most undead are made by powerful undead necromancers (such as Palawa Joko, Khilbron, Zoldark, and some nameless Undead Necromancers in pre-Searing’s daily quests). In such cases, some had shown high intelligence (mainly Joko’s minions), while others seemed to have only limited intelligence (but still more than your standard mindless risen).

That isn’t what I said at all. What I was saying is “your ‘evidence’ is not as strong as you claim, and in some cases it is false and here is why <insert reason>, if you have evidence against it, please share. And no it is not ‘pretty convincing’ as you claim.”

And you have not bothered to rebuttle my counter arguments, just call me out on myself. Which is as good as admitting you have no rebuttle and akcknowledge that you hold no support as strong as you claim for your theory.

Phone battery dying so I’ll respond to the rest later. Perhaps by then you’ll actually have a rebuttle for me and not just more insults.

Kalavier.1097:

I had a post similar to that but I didn’t post it.

Basically that GW2 style are “Orrian style” statues, while GW1 are of another sculptor, based off the Orrian ones. Or simpler to make and thus slightly more widespread.

I believe the wiki calls them by those names as well. “Orrian” for Gw2 and no name for gw1.

The naming was my doing as the GW2 style originates from Orr, even if it spread outward and was used for Kormir. Lore wise. I couldn’t think of a decent name for referring to the GW1 statues except “GW1 style” which is how I labeled them on GW2W.

Tipper.7354:

Konig, the problem is that you’re using things that aren’t evidence to disprove arguments. Saying that Glint could not have rebelled without the Ritual… where’s the proof of that? Where’s anything to say that’s true? The only concrete thing we have is that a Dragon Champion did rebel. With outside help, sure, but we have no qualifiers for anything else. The only concrete evidence we have is that it can happen, there is nothing that proves it requires help – and beyond that, the Pale Tree did have help anyway, just of a different sort. You cannot claim that Champion rebellion is impossible because there is no possible way you can know this.

The very nature of Dragon minions not having free will proves my point in this. From here :

Warden Illyra: Glint was a champion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but somehow she shook off his yoke.

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

And on dragon’s corruption in general, from here :

That’s what makes Jormag different. Other dragons corrupt creatures in order to enslave them, but Jormag entices victims with promises of power before they’re corrupted."

There are thousands is minor dialogues which tell about how corruption is irreversible, changes one mentally, and removes free will. Both to minor and major minions. These are just the biggest two that I can think of.

So yeah, I think this is proof that they cannot break free. And in fact, Glint had two things helping her break free. Not only did she need free will, but the ability to sense those she killer’s pain as she killed them. Without the later, she may have kept serving Kralkatorrik but willingly for all we know.

Tipper.7354:

Likewise, on the Sylvari’s resistance to corruption: All we know is that they are immune to all forms of Dragon Corruption seen thus far. The fact that we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of is literally the whole point of this. There is only one form of life that has shown immunity to Dragon Corruption: Life forms that are already corrupted. Shattered don’t become Risen any more than Destroyers become Icebrood. Now, we’re saying that maybe the reason the Sylvari don’t become corrupted is because they’re already effectively corrupted. You don’t have to agree, but you also cannot possibly have evidence that disproves it. You might even have another theory! But you have no way at all of knowing the Sylvari-Mordremoth connection is false.

BUT NO WHERE IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT DRAGON MINIONS ARE IMMUNE TO CORRUPTION. As I said before. SYLVARI ARE THE ONE AND ONLY LIVING BEING IMMUNE TO CORRUPTION THAT WE KNOW OF. Maybe this time you’ll listen – or rather read it – and if you think otherwise, can you provide evidence? Furthermore, we see dragon minions that have been corrupted by multiple Dragon energies in Crucible of Eternity showing that it is possible, that they don’t just die – the question is more about “would they?” and not “can they?”

And “we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of” is not enough to say “the evidence makes it obvious that the most likely situation is that sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions”.

Tipper.7354:

You’re dismissing everyone else’s arguments without showing a shred of evidence for your reasoning, and mocking the standards of other people’s theories while having no standards at all for your own.

You need to scroll your kittening screen up then because after your three large posts I gave a three post response debunking or reducing each point you made.

Tipper.7354:

If you can show something concrete that says The Sylvari Are Absolutely Not Mordremoth’s Minions then please, link it. Be direct, blunt, simple, and prove everyone wrong. If you can’t, then for the love of God, stop being so toxic.

I can, and did, show that the sylvari are most likely not minions. But you ignored it. GG, keep being an kitten.

No one can definitely prove for or against until we see what his minions look like. But you guys are saying that it is most likely. I have countered each argument you’ve thrown. And what I get back in return is an ignoration of my counter arguments.

The least you can do is not be an kitten and call me toxic for countering your arguments when you don’t even bother trying to refute my counters! It is downright insulting to be ignored and have you guys repeating the same kitten thing – and even more insulting when you respond to others!

Korval.3751:

Sylvari are immune to physical forms of corruption but evidence suggests that they can be mentally corrupted.

What is said is that they are immune to Dragon corruption. Given the Toxic Alliance, sylvari can very much be twisted physically. And given the Nightmare, they can mentally to. Except when either case is dragon corruption. While specific mentions we’ve gotten is risen and branded it is said for Dragon corruption in general they are ‘immune’ to. This is why we see no icebrood sylvari either – despite Jormag corrupting mentally.

No evidence suggests that they can be corrupted by a Dragon if it is mental because all Dragon corruption is mental (or rather affects the victim mentally). What evidence suggests is that sylvari might lose that ‘immunity’ if they lose their tie to the Dream like Scarlet had. But this is only so if Scarlet truly was twisted by Mordremoth if which we still have insufficient evidence. The other piece of evidence is the source of information on said immunity says “those born of the Pale Tree” but this is pre-release and as such may not consider Malyck or Mordremoth so again, insufficient evidence.

And the mursaat and seers hold no indication of having a pre-birth shared consciousness.

Korval.3751:

As with all other corruptible beings this is by design. Since the Sylvari are from the Pale Tree, it would then be evident that the Pale Tree itself is either in whole or part some type of champion of Mordemoth that never became active; a sleeper agent so-to-speak that stayed dormant.

This logic makes no sense. Based on corruptible beings by design? Okay then. That means Smodur, Jennah, Flax, and Knut are all dragon champions too.

And Dragon minions cannot be sleeper agents. It goes against the entire concept of what a Dragon minion is – a being that has been mentally enslaved and made fanatical in serving a certain Dragon.

Korval.3751:

Past history has shown that champions can and do rebel against their masters.

Wrong again. Glint only was capable of rebelling because, and only because, she was given free will again by an ancient Forgotten ritual. Without such, she could never even consider the possibility of rebelling.

Korval.3751:

If you stand back and examine the information collectively you will see what Danny Witwer, from Minority Report, called an “orgy of evidence”.

And yet I can refute, with evidence, each and every piece of your “evidence”. Because you hold nothing concrete. Just possibilities, some of which are false or misunderstandings!

Korval.3751:

What else in Tyria would this be if not an elder dragon. It communicated with Scarlet telepathically. It corrupted her spirit and motivated her to do things she did not want to do.

For starters? We see these do just that explicitly:

• The Inquisitor, a mursaat who rips thoughts out of others (and was an ele at that).
• Abaddon, who drove hundreds mad while merely imprisoned.
• Kanaxai, a powerful demon who drove hundreds mad and changed them.
• Dhuum, who drove a Forgotten into insanity from imprisonment and forcibly made him do things he didn’t want to.
• Mesmers and Spirits in general have abilities of telepathy and possession, respectively.

So yeah, plenty of things capable of this beyond Elder Dragons. And it should be noted that each Elder Dragon corrupts differently, and Jormag does the mental corruptions amongst the dragons- so why two that corrupt the same when the others don’t corrupt the same at all?

Korval.3751:

Given that the conclusion cinematic clearly shows the lay line going into the jungle and waking an elder dragon there proves without a doubt that the being communicating with Scarlet is none other than Mordremoth.

Unless, of course, the one who benefited the most from an incomplete plan is not the one who thought the plan. We already have the Inquest interested in wiping the other races so they could pull a mursaat and flee until they sleep and then rule the world (Arah mursaat path).

Korval.3751:

Does this mean that Scarlet Briar is Mordremoth’s champion?

Only if 1) Mordremoth is the entity and 2) Mordremoth somehow found how to bypass sylvari ‘immunity’ to corruption.

Korval.3751:

To quote the scene from Contact, “Occam’s Razor is the scientific principle that, all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one.” I think all of the information presented points to this as the simplest answer.

You know that there is an antecedent to Occam’s Razor that is called “a red herring” right? Often used in literature and especially mystery stories (which season 1 attempted and failed at being) to throw players onto a different track than the actual case, in order to make a plot twist (which would not be new to ArenaNet).

The answer is not always the simplest.

As said, the GW1 statue appears – to me – to be lacking any kind of skull mask.

The Toxic Alliance actually doesn’t do much to darken the Dream because of how few sylvari were affected by them. All that it ended up doing would have had equal benefit if they just did so without allying with Scarlet and the krait.

Mind you, it makes sense that they wouldn’t pass up an opportunity to improve their means of spreading nightmare and fear to the sylvari race, but thus far they hadn’t really done such.

If one looks at the face of Grenth in the old version, he has a long beard and apparently no skull, with deep set eyes much like that of an old man. Scriptures mention “bony hands”, and that is what the Gendarran mural and Ascalon mural (not the glass one) show. Thus doesn’t really fit with the new model of a buff man.

But I digress because I thought, though I was wrong, that the manual mentions said body if an old man, but it just says body of a man.

I’d rather it be kept to being an annual festival, TBH. I think it will lose all of its grace if made permanent.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

That we know of. This does not mean that others don’t exist.

Nor is there reason to believe others exist, beyond the Dream causing death upon corruption.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

In Kralk’s case, corruption is instantaneous. There is nothing that says it would be for all others. Jormag with his seduction isn’t instantaneous. It may not be for Mordy either. They all work a little differently.

In Jormag’s case it is instantaneous, actually. Once you give in, you’re corrupted. The physical aspects are changes over time, though. Zhaitan is also instantaneous – with Zhaitan, when risen attack in force, the bodies of the fallen are said to not even have enough time to hit the ground before the skin turns gray and rotten and they turn on their former comrades.

There is not a single Elder Dragon who’s corruption, once it affects the individual, is not instantly taken affect.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If the Pale Tree had not been influenced by Ventari, perhaps they wouldn’t be fighting him. If they had all turned out like the Nightmare Court with the tree functioning closer to whatever her darker version was ‘supposed to be’ (since the Nightmare Court believe she’s supposed to be something darker), they could easily have ended up obeying him.

The Nightmare Court still fight the Elder Dragons, as I said. A mere tablet cannot cure dragon corruption – if that was enough, then it wouldn’t be nearly as bad of an issue. People whom are fully hating of the Elder Dragons become fanatical servants; people whom know nothing of the Elder Dragons become fanatical servants. Mere willpower is only a case with Jormag’s seductions.

[quote=4105486;LanfearShadowflame.3189:This still does not rule out the possibility of her original intent having been to be a champion or at the very least, some type of minion. She wasn’t the only seed in that cave, and we don’t know what the function of the guards was. We have no idea where they came from. No one does. We can only speculate.[/quote]The only possibility would have been purification by Forgotten magic at the current point, and there’s no evidence to point to this.

And you’re right – we have no idea where they came from. So who’s to say they’re not meant to be weapons to fight the Elder Dragons, much like the dwarves’ stone form?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And again, this could still be attributed to the Pale Tree’s overall influence over them. Of course she’s going to instill in all of them that the Elder Dragon is the enemy.

Except that they reject the Pale Tree and break their ties to her and all she has management over.

But if the Pale Tree is a dragon champion – why would she see the Elder Dragons as enemies? Why would she go out of her way to fight them? She, unlike Glint, holds no prior knowledge about them or how horrible they could be. Yet she still fights against them. For no reason more than any other race fights them. There’s nothing unique about her here, and it is just mind-boggling for why she’d be fighting her master if she was a dragon champion.

To use the robotic phrase: Does not compute.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

sigh Nevermind, it went completely over your head.

It didn’t go over my head. But apparently what I was saying did. I’m just saying that just because you’re seeing coincidences, doesn’t mean that there aren’t actually coincidences. Coincidences can exist intentionally – they’re called red herrings in writing.