Guild Wars 2

Actually, that’s not the case at all. If you can kill them before they activate the skill Metamorphosis (which is very hard to do but very much possible), you can kill them once and only once. Similarly, if they activate the skill, the first version (which used the skill) dies a few seconds later no matter what – so if you see the skill activated, you can ignore that NPC completely.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact they’re not the same kind of aatxe. Bladed Aatxe != Aatxe or Lesser Bladed Aatxe. I think if the Bladed Aatxes ever appear in GW2, they will be champion rank, which can usually kill any player in 1-2 hits with ease.

You make a few mistakes:

1. Nothing says 10,000 BE (approx.) is when the G-Lupe went extinct, technically – they just “disappeared from” and “last walked on” continental Tyria. Furthermore, the ED did kill off the Giganticus Lupicus, not “almost” – but this was during the ED’s previous rise, date unknown still (we don’t know if 10,000 BE marks an ED awakening either, for that matter – there is minor indication, though this is pure theorycrafting still, that the last ED rise might have been sometime between 2,000 BE and 1,000 BE given a line from Sieran dating the oldest dwarven ruins to be “over two thousands years old” (a very odd word choice if the dwarves as a civilization were around for 11,000 years!)).
2. The charr never crossed the Shiverpeaks – or, for that matter, the Blazeridge (they went around the Blazeridge – going north, then east into what’s now the Blood Legion Homelands, then south into what’s now Ascalon)
3. We have absolutely no indication of when the Six Gods arrived on the world – we only know they did so after the mursaat/seer war and writing of the original Tome of Rubicon, and that the forgotten are said to have been arrived in Tyria (unknown if continent or world) in 1,769 BE. We also know that humans were in Cantha sometimes earlier than 786 BE (the date given to them settling northern Cantha – by that time, the Kurzicks and Luxons were on the continent already).
4. You make it sound like the forgotten immediately went into the Crystal Desert – this is not the case. Humans arrived on continental Tyria and Elona in 205 BE, the forgotten retreated to the Crystal Desert in 174 AE – well over 350 years later.

Realistically they could be any design. The only statue that’s really odd would be the one in Reaper’s Gate (Lornar’s Pass), since that one is where one in GW1 was, but it uses the newer design.

@WonderfulCT: Sure, thanks to blind being constant and blocking being common. In GW2, blind goes away after the first attack that would have hit, and there’s so few skills that can block.

Bladed Aatxes would wtfrape GW2 players. (the notion that GW2 PCs are stronger is not true in a mechanical comparison sense!)

@Gregorius: I disagree on the krait “retcon” being unnecessary. You would never see such flamboyant feathers on creatures coming from the deepest parts of the deepest known ocean. It would just make no kittening sense to keep the old design. Mind you, they could have kept the viper look and remove those feathers – but then two of their forms would make no sense (Arcanoss and Devout), if not more.

Personally, while I didn’t dislike the GW1 appearance, the GW2 appearance makes a lot more sense – for both old and new lore. In GW1, there were krait which gained legs through metamorphosis, and then lost them with their next metamorphosis. Please explain how that makes sense. The concept of a form-changing race is grand, don’t get me wrong, but there’s not too much variation available if you try to keep it in the realm of reasonability.

Regarding Aatxes, you’ll note something very important:

GW1 names: Bladed Aatxe
GW2 names: Aaxte, Veteran Lesser Bladed Aatxe (guess which of the two’s stronger? That’s right, the vet – the “lesser” foe)

The ones we fought in GW1, those dozens in a single spot, would be like fighting a dozen champions in a single fight. They’re the big daddy of aatxes – like how the Cyberdemon was the big daddy in DOOM games; these other guys are little better than imps or hell barons in comparison. The ones we see in the open world are pushovers and the Lesser Bladed Aatxes that we fight in two personal stories (one for human, one for Priory) are still weaker than the Bladed Aatxes.

So yeah, the Aatxes in GW2 are pushovers compared to the ones in GW1. But that’s because we’re not fighting the same kind of Aatxes.

Regarding the krait: they always had high intelligence (read the EN manual or the GWW article: “These semi-intelligent creatures are vicious and xenophobic […] The reports are incomplete at best, as survivors of these encounters are often too hysterical to recall any salient details.” – they were called semi-intelligent because the full scope of their knowledge was unknown to those silly land dwellers.

The metamorphosis (which, btw, the krait could be killed before they use the skill and thus only killed once) is an interesting bit. Something I personally attribute to the DSD awakening and them fleeing to the surface.

Gregorius.1024:

As for the Krait, I don’t know how to justify them. I think they were a big miss, simply because they’re so much like the Naga now.

I suspect that’s intentionally done. I mean, the old appearance hardly looked like something that’d come from the deep ocean. Their appearance is 100% a retcon. But they could have kept the old viper look – so why change to something more cobra or human/snake-hybrid appearing that’s much more like the naga? My thought: they’re cousin races. Like the hylek and hekets (literally frog-people and toad-people).

Neither.

Narcemus.1348:

Remember things technically started with the Titans in Tyria.

Nope. It began much earlier than that.

Abaddon started the process that led to Nightfall roughly 200 years prior to GW1, by sending demonic agents into the world who would indirectly cause the Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, and spread knowledge of Abaddon. And if you want to argue it, the plans for Nightfall may have begun as soon as 272 AE, when Glint compiled the Flameseeker Prophecies.

However, Kormir took the blame for it per the reasons Narcemus said. Basically, Nightfall had been a 200+ year plot in the process of being made; Prophecies and Factions were both attempts at Nightfall (the event, not the campaign), but were stopped midway. In Elona, however, Kormir was the first to activate the Apocrypha, which was something that Varesh and Kahyet were going to do anyways, so she unintendedly began the last real attempt at it, which ended up succeeding more than the others.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Well to be honest, I never got whats the big deal about the Apocrypha.

An Apocrypha by definition is an ancient forgotten text of usually forbidden knowledge. In this case, the Apocrypha held information about Abaddon and how to bring about Nightfall.

It was this knowledge that Varesh used – via a scroll – to cast the three rituals that weakened the barriers between Tyria and the Realm of Torment at Gandara, Sebehlkeh Basilica (I probably slaughtered the name), and the Mouth of Torment.

Without the Apocrypha, Varesh wouldn’t have been able to perform those three rituals. There’d be no demons and Margonites in Elona, no portals, or any of the like.

All other attempts made were failed, and only occurred at places where the Mists were already close. Just like how the Fury intended to launch an invasion from the Door of Komalie (but was cut off for reasons unknown to those in the Realm of Torment). The Tomb of the Primeval Kings was just a one-front attack. Nightfall was meant to be a total conversion of the world into torment, not just hordes of demons invading.

But you’re right its not the start, just gave what Varesh needed to bring about the “real” Nightfall.

My Chinese history is severely lacking, but didn’t they not have an overpopulation problem in those times of isolation, but did have internal wars? The complete opposite of Cantha.

I’m pretty sure we do have the origins to the Black Curtain’s name. Something dealing with why Temple of the Ages was built there – if memory serves me correctly, ToA originally began with a shrine to Grenth because the swamp nearby was close to the Underworld or some such; it had dark energies or close to death to Krytans or some other such.

You pretty much got three kinds of themes to go off of:

Pure magic user (3 scholars, guardian, ranger)
Pure non-magic or pure tech fighter (warrior, engineer)
Mix of magic and tech (thief)

So a heavy armor variant of a thief’s skill-theme, but changing the school of magic theme from being Mesmer-like (supposedly Denial) to something else.

In terms of professions to schools of magic, we got:
Aggression: Necromancer
Denial: Mesmer, Thief
Destruction: Elementalist (note: this is the only confirmed one, everything else is theorycrafted and almost unanimously agreed upon by the playerbase)
Preservation: Guardian

Ranger’s hard to place, but given the nature theme I’d say destruction, though it’s not really destructive (which would lead me to think preservation, tbh, but it looks nothing like Guardian stuff). (personal speculation places Ritualists under Aggression and Dervishes under Destruction)

So under such pretenses, I’d say a heavy armor fighter that utilizes necromancer-like magic along with modern weaponry. And I am now imagining a heavy-armor fighter with cyborg-like minions. ._.

The texture for the globe is on the wiki – however, it should be noted that what’s viewed in-game is not even close to that texture. The in-game model uses Shing Jea Island as a land-bridge some other continent west of Cantha…

Well, what’s now called Kessex Hills was previously (in GW1) Kessex Peak, Tears of the Fallen (now that centaur camp/mudbay digs), and the northern parts of Stingray Strand, and Twin Serpent Lakes (the swamp), with some of the unexplored area.

I don’t think there was any lore given behind the name of Kessex Hills, though we do know that during Thorn’s reign there was a Sorceress of Kessex but we don’t really know anything about her.

Pfft, the gods don’t know everything (they didn’t know they were pulling magic from Zhaitan, for instance). So who’s to say that Grenth couldn’t fool the other gods? And why fight Dhuum? Because they’re not really allies, hence the ploy. :P

If that “right angle” requires misinterpreting a developer’s words, talking about a possibility that’s overall irrelevant to your alterations that you don’t seem to admit making, and stretching your hypothesis (not really a theory) to fit around known lore, then yes, I would rather not view lore that way.

It all comes down to these three fine points:

1) Jeff wasn’t saying that the Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods are the same type of creature; he was saying they’re viewed to be by cultures, and that these cultures view the other cultures’ deities to be like their own, and not how said other culture claims them to be.

2) The multiverse scenario requires millions of the same Six Gods being produced at the same time if they came directly from the Mists. All indications show that the Mists’ creation is more or less completely random, with a heavy chance of copying things it comes into contact with. But your original theory required the Six Gods to come from Tyria – and this you altered, thus making your multiverse relation unnecessary.

3) The norn knew of a spirit of fire, which you would call Primordus, before they knew of Primordus. Primordial fire or not, fire is fire and there’s no difference between the two. And you also completely avoid how these spirits of fire, mountains, darkness, seasons and other unknown spirits fit into your “theory.”

And this is ignoring the whole concept of the power, purpose, and mentality behind each group being different.

You have not proven these points wrong, but instead are just avoiding them or saying “no, you’re wrong” without pointing out why. All in favor of “it’s so unsupported you can’t prove it wrong!”

Well guess what, you can’t prove this wrong either:

I’m God.

Guess that means we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because we all know it actually is possible, especially if looked at the right angle, but you can’t disprove me. I can make millions of “theories” that are just as strong as yours, but even more unlikely.

Here’s other things to consider:

• You exclude Koda, the Great Dwarf, and Mellaggan.
• The Spirits of the Wild are guardian spirits, killing them weakens their race (though how is never stated – during the Minotaur Spirit norn storyline, Eir says that killing a Spirit of the Wild harms the “very soul of the wilderness”; according to Skuld in Hoelbrak there is (or used to be) a Spirit of the Wild for every animal, they are actual great beings that can be killed, that “all owls became weaker and more confused when their Spirit was killed” and that Raven is “the natural embodiment of all ravens”). The Six Gods are powerful beings with divine power of an unknown origin, killing a god destroys “nearby” (I use the term loosely) reality. An Elder Dragon is a corruptive magic-eating entity, killing them stops of the reduction and twisting of magic.

Killing a Spirit of the Wild or one of the Six Gods is a bad thing. Killing an Elder Dragon is a good thing.

All of this extrapolation you make is intended for two true purposes: you’re trying to connect the Six Gods to the Elder Dragons (something which is stated in-game almost outright to not be the case), and you’re trying to explain how the facets are draconic. But there’s a much easier explanation for the latter – and that’s just that it’s about the time the Six Gods harnessed Zhaitan’s power to strengthen the original Bloodstone before it got split. The Six Gods did harness a dragon’s power, so why wouldn’t the draconic facets who’s appearance is a reflection of the power the gods harnessed not be about this? Furthermore, the quest’s encrypted dialogue seems to point to Orr/Arah, and guess where the harnessing of Zhaitan’s power for the Bloodstones occurred? Arah. And the connection to the forgotten? Firstly, the forgotten fought the Elder Dragons. Secondly, their magic countered Elder Dragon corruption, and considering the fact we’re not all raving Zhaitan fanatics proclaiming power and immortality with lies like the Risen, something was done to prevent Zhaitan’s corruptive energies from corrupting the Bloodstones. Forgotten seem like a strong candidate for how.

There – I just made a much more plausible theory fulfilling the purpose of your “theory.”

Other than the facets, there is one connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons – the Six Gods have a divine aura which makes looking at them like looking at the sun; the Elder Dragons’ rise alters the stars in the sky (Jormag’s awakening changed the auroras in the sky, and after Zhaitan’s fall a new star was born, said toe herald the awakening of a new Elder Dragon). But this isn’t in their power, and even then this tie is so tenuous a butter knife can snap it. Because there are FAR more differences than similarities between the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Elder Dragons (you can actually look at a Sprint of the Wild and Elder Dragon without going blind, for starters).

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

In GW1 Wurms are legless creatures similar to Worms which are legless Drake hatchlings(Drakes are Dragons).

As far as GW1 is concerned Wurms are Serpents and Krait are Snakes.

Fantasy worlds have their own vocabulary in lore that have different meaning from the real world therefore in GW’s dictionary Snakes(or Krait) are Serpent-like and Serpents(or Wurms) are Worm(Drake Hatchling)-like.

Hahaha, no. Wurms are just large worms. Wurms are not drake hatchlings. You’re being confused by terminology of these two guys. But they aren’t drakes – if you take note, drakes are NOT native to Cantha (the only drakes one sees in Cantha are Fire Drakes, which were imported from the Ring of Fire – the next closest you get would be the plants which mimic drakes or the Turtle Dragons). But those worms are not drakes.

Wurms are just large worms – you know, like earthworms. Worms in GW1 was used to refer to small/young wurms (this was also done in pre-BWE GW2, but the smaller Worm were renamed as Wurm Hatchlings). Wurm is, quite literally, German for worm.

Similarly, the Greater Serpent and Guardian Serpent isn’t meant to mean they are snakes – though they very well could be. But the terminology for serpent in GW is no different than its terminology in reality. Same goes for worm. If you want hard evidence: Serpent Clan is also referred to as the Snake Clan in the same manner that Turtle Clan is also referred to as the Tortoise Clan.

Those four creatures are just named oddly.

Anyways, Krait have always been referred to as upright snakes, just like the forgotten and naga. Their GW2 appearance is even much more similar to the naga in GW1, and the Celestial Snake’s summons being krait models only furthers the theory me, Thalador, and I think drax have that they’re distant cousins or some such (much like hylek and heket), and that the description about naga invading a city regarding Tahmu (the Celestial Dragon)’s past is a case of mistaken identity (krait mistaken for naga) given that naga were typically peaceful before the Jade Wind.

My point in that, Dustfinger, is that you’ve yet to accurately refute the bits that poke holes in your hypothesis that pretty much makes is practically ready to crumble, and you just stretch scotch tape to cover said holes.

1. Trahearne can wield a greatsword despite being a necromancer cuz he’s an NPC – they aren’t limited to the mechanics players are. And if you play sylvari, no matter what, you will wield Caladbolg as well. And when you do, you can use elementalist, mesmer, and guardian skills. It’s not Trahearne who’s using skills of multiple professions – it’s Caladbolg. Which comes from the Pale Tree.
2. Trahearne’s 23 years old. He was the very first of the Firstborn. He’s far older than the Shadow of the Dragon – which is said by the Pale Tree to be a representation of the sylvari PC’s Wyld Hunt – to kill Zhaitan.
3. Trahearne isn’t the only sylvari who’s Wyld Hunt is to face or undo Zhaitan’s corruption. Trahearne’s was to cleanse Orr, Caithe’s (and the PC’s) was to kill Zhaitan itself, and dozens of other sylvari (if not hundreds) have Wyld Hunts to kill Zhaitan’s forces or even champions – including Tegwen, which you can meet in four different parts of the storyline if you play your choices right (sylvari “act with wisdom” – Priory recruiting step – ambushing the Eye of Zhaitan – going with the Vigil plan to invade further into Orr).
4. Sylvari are immune to the Elder Dragons’ corruption. Nothing says the Pale Tree is.
5. Trahearne’s knowledgable because he’s spent 23 studying Orr.
6. The Elder Dragons are not united. It’s a six-way Cold War between them. And we’re in the middle of it. Zhaitan was taken out first because Zhaitan waged war on us first, is blockading us the most, and is the closest. Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik are still biding their times in their respective areas, and most folks don’t know of the DSD or Mordremoth (the real plant dragon).
7. Leviathans are large fish. They’re unrelated to the Deep Sea Dragon. Confirmed by ArenaNet.
8. Dragon minions are NOT immune to other Elder Dragons’ corruptions. Case in point: Subject Alpha, Kudu’s Monster, and Kudu.

You want a real crackpot theory?

Grenth is Menzies.

Both have ties to darkness and destruction (Grenth, god of death, ice, darkness, destruction, judgment, mortality, sorrow, and strict ethics; Menzies the Mad, Lord of Destruction, leader of the Shadow Army). Grenth was born as a half-god, son of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor. Menzies is Balthazar’s half-brother – Balthazar is a full-fledged god so Menzies is likely a half-god too. All this would mean is that Balthazar’s mother is Dwayna. And take note: Grenth holds annual competitions with Dwayna (who calls him a fiend and other mean things), Grenth holds opposition to Lyssa, Grenth took over Dhuum’s throne, and Melandru sided with Dwayna during Wintersday (while Balthazar with Grenth). When Abaddon was killed, Olias said Grenth would ensure that Abaddon would never return. Grenth is already fighting 3 gods, and took 1 down. Who’s to say the god of darkness isn’t ploying to be some shadowy figure, aiding Dhuum and Abaddon with the intention of overthrowing them (again) as well as Balthazar?

Grenth is trying to become the One True God. Nuff said.

Cyan.6904:

Just to say something, it’s never proven that the human gods and the spirits of the wild are the same thing, and the norn and human races doesn’t seem to see it like that either.

Don’t think anyone’s arguing such. Dustfinger’s arguing that the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Elder Dragons are all the same kind of being. Basically, he’s saying they’re all gods.

Weindrasi.3805:

And if the gods had something to do with the dragons, which I highly doubt, but which is interesting to consider nonetheless, it would be:

1. Balthazar—Primord
2. Kormir—Deep Sea
3. Grenth—Zhaitan
4. Dwanya—Jormag
5. Lyssa—Kraltorrik
6. Melandru—Mordremoth

Zhaitan is outright stated to be stealing from Grenth. Dwayna holds no ties to ice, and Lyssa holds no ties to crystal. And Kormir holds no ties to water, despite Abaddon having such.

The Six Gods’ elemental domains seem to be purely based on the individual gods, rather than what’s passed down. On the other hand, what’s passed down seems to be the more metaphysical/action/personality aspect – water went to Lyssa after Abaddon’s death; Dhuum never had ice; Kormir gained order and spirit from no where. As such, the Six Gods don’t cross with the Elder Dragons at all – not by force, at least.

In other words, Grenth is forced into being the god of death, but he chooses to be the god of ice, darkness, and so forth. Kormir is forced into being the goddess of knowledge(/truth/secrets), but chooses to be the god of order and spirit. Furthermore, even before becoming a god, Grenth was said to embody ice, sorrow, mortality, and judgment – ice and judgment carried over with his godhood, and mortality is pretty close to death as is, and he took on darkness and strict ethics – and a necromancer in Divinity’s Reach says everything Grenth’s about is just too depressing (hello sorrow!).

So if you want to begin comparing the Six Gods as an essence to anything, you must look at their passed down – aka mandatory – domains.

Melandru=Nature
Balthazar=War
Dwayna=Life
Grenth=Death
Kormir=Knowledge
Lyssa=Beauty (I’m guessing, might be illusions but beauty is more akin to what the others have)

In this regard, only Melandru and Grenth might cross with Mordremoth and Zhaitan respectively. But the others are lacking any connection in this. And we’re told outright that Grenth and Zhaitan are separate, and opposing, entities. And furthermore, Grenth-related statues and the Cathedral of Silence are somehow resisting Zhaitan’s corruption – if Grenth and Zhaitan’s powers were related, you’d suspect those to be the first to fall to corruption.

Ratphink.4751:

In all honesty, I think there is a link between the Power of the Gods and the Dragons. The GW1 quest made this reference, but whether its specific Gods to Specific Dragons is currently unfeasible without more knowledge of who Abbadon supplanted as the God before him.

I agree and disagree. The Path of Revelations’ quest chain does hold facets that are draconic in appearance, said to be related to power the gods harnessed and the Forgotten, however I don’t think it is in any way shape or form tied to the power that makes gods. I have a few points of reasoning this:

1. The Path of Revelations has a encrypted text at the end. The wiki has it translated – and in an interview, Jeff said it may hint to Orr. I suspect that it does.
2. In Arah explorable, seer path, we learn that the Six Gods pulled power from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone, but they did not know that it was Zhaitan they were pulling power from.
3. Forgotten magic counters ED corruption, and they fought the Elder Dragons. This may be where the tie between the draconic facets connect to the forgotten.

@Thalador: Four gods came from the Mists? Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru… who’s the fourth? We don’t know if Abaddon, Dhuum, and Lyssa came from the Mists and we know that Grenth didn’t. Though a line about Grenth implies he and Kormir are the only gods who didn’t come from the Mists – and there’s an Asia-only lore document from Nightfall that implies Abaddon came from the Mists, but its not confirmed.

And technically, Abaddon’s only credited to knowing something others don’t remember.

Xter.6271:

A lot of you don’t know Guild Wars 1 lore at all which tells you. I’m just going to quote the wiki here because I’m to lazy to type it. It explains everything.

-snip wiki quoting-

That’s explains why they were called the Bloodstones and everything and why the Gods left the world. They never came back but still listened to the people until we hit GW2 lore where even contact with the Gods was gone.

You apparently don’t know Guild Wars 2 lore at all, because I know both, and if you knew the later you’d know that the History of Tyria – what you quoted – has been made “false” by new lore. Call if retcon if you want, though Anet bypasses this claim by the fact that the History of Tyria was written in-universe and by an Orrian human. Thus, it is the human’s history of it.

And almost the entire thing has been proven false, with half of it proven lacking/false during Nightfall alone. I suggest you go read through the dialogue here, here, and here – for starters.

coughs

hack

weeze

Ulgoth is debatable for either being an individual’s name, or a title for the Modniir leader. Take note that while the Modniir have pushed the Harathi and Tamini to fighting humans, centaurs on a whole have a hatred for humanity – one that’s lasted about 1,000 years now.

Besides the centaurs, humans also have to deal with bandits.

For the Flame Legion – we only kill 2 Tribunes, and supposedly there’s more splinter factions. So they’re not completely removed, but they’re in a civil war. However, the current content story – Flame and Frost – seems to show that the Flame Legion are acting up once again.

And the charr are still busy with ghosts, Renegades, Separatists, and the Dragonbrand.

So they’re not really all that freed up.

darkace.8925:

The best way to keep Trahearne is to relegate him to an Eisenhower-eque role (planning the strategy far away from the front lines).

Funny thing… that’s what he did except three times.

Personally, I think Mordremoth is awake, and woke up roughly 50 years before Jormag/after Eye of the North. Why? Primordus woke up at that time so reasonably speaking, another shouldn’t have. The thing to take note of however is that Primordus was pushed back roughly 50 years. I don’t think the other Elder Dragons relied on Primordus waking up first, and at least three Elder Dragons had active/semi-active champions in the world (possibly four or five, depending on Rotscale’s and Kuunavang’s relation to the Elder Dragons given their comparison to being like Glint) – The Great Destroyer of Primordus, Drakkar/Nornbear of Jormag, and Glint of Kralkatorrik (though whether Kralk believed Glint was a betrayer or not when he went to sleep is still rather unknown). Given this, unless Primordus was going to wake up with a 100 year gap between other ED, logic dictates that two Elder Dragons woke up at once – since it wasn’t the DSD or the other three known, it was likely Mordremoth (or alternatively, per my original speculation, a seventh ED unknown to the jotun that Kuunavang is the (former?) champion of).

No, there’s never been confirmation we can enter the tower yet. Nor, as far as I know, anyone managing to do so.

I think its obvious who it is. It’s the mysterious, never seen, immortal Teller of Tales.

1. Never said the interview with where Jeff talks about cultural views of the gods isn’t credible. I’m saying that since he’s talking about a subjective truth, there’s more sides to the coin. What he said is true – this is how they view them – but it’s not everything on the matter. Which is the case for a vast majority of his answers. He beats around the bush and leaves things without comment almost all the time.

2. Not the same thing. What your example is would be the second scenario I said (where Group C is both 1 and 2). What’s happening is that the humans are saying “The Spirits of the Wild are not spirits, they are gods.” And on the other hand the norn are going “the Six Gods are not gods, they are spirits.”

There is no saying “they are the same thing” they are saying “that person is wrong, because this is how it is.”

It’s not the same as calling a dog in one language, then calling it a dog in another language. It’s not a comparison of dog, cane, hund, etc. It’s just a bunch of “your right, I’m wrong”

Spirit != God

3. However, these wouldn’t be gods of other dimensions. And that is a humongous stretching of your hypothesis. Because remember, not only do the gods come from the Mists, but so do the forgotten and humans. This means that by your claim, the Mists had to make potentially millions of every single god, human, and forgotten that came from the Mists. At the same time. And as we can plainly see, the Mists’ creation of things is practically random. The chances of the Mists making thousands of perfect copies of the same thing – let alone millions of copies of hundreds of thousands of things at the same time… the chances of probability is pretty much off the charts in the “highly impossible” range.

Honestly, there’s a better chance that I’ll be hit with a dinosaur-shaped meteorite that ends the Earth.

4. No, actually, it doesn’t. It doesn’t help your argument whatsoever, because initially you argued that the Six Gods came from another dimension, however, now you’re saying they’re not. In other words, you removed the relevance of the argument, and now your argument requires something so impossible to occur when keeping the multiple dimension theory that it’s just falling apart.

5. Kormir? No. Grenth? No. Abaddon? No. But the original of the pantheon by your argument were – which to our knowledge currently includes Dwayna, Balthazar, Lyssa, Melandru, Dhuum, and Abaddon’s unknown predecessor (whom by all indications was supplanted before arrival on Tyria). But nonetheless, by your argument the Six Gods are not harnessing anything draconic – originals or successors.

6. I didn’t ignore the other possibility, since its a possibility I brought up (except for the “related to the ED anyways” bit). And now you’re just stretching things further by saying Zhaitan’s “purer.”

7. I do, but apparently you don’t understand how fire is fire, and Primordus while an ancient entity is fire while so is this other entity. Why would they separate new and old fire from each other? Makes no sense.

Again, your just stretching things further and further. Eventually your hypothesis is going to snap from the strain. Because you have next to nothing to back it up except for the unknowns.

By using that, I can say that Melandru’s a sylvari and Dwayna slept with every mortal sculptor she met. Can you disprove it? Nope. Do I have even an ounce of standing? Only so far as Melandru being related to a tree and Dwayna’s son’s father is a mortal sculptor.

8. Death isn’t handled by the Spirits of the Wild. Nor by the Elder Dragons, for that matter. Zhaitan is *Un*death. Dhuum/Grenth is Death.

9. True, you don’t have to prove it right, but your not proving it not wrong at least.

Technically, smekras, Trahearne never says he came up with the name. Only that’s the name he’s using for the base. This seems to be the main issue folks have with Trahearne outside his bipolarness and his mechanical voiceacting – he just words things in such a way that it seems like he’s taking credit, but in actuality, he isn’t.

I guess I catch onto these things more since I majored in English…

This tree is actually far more similar to the Ancestor Trees of Elonian centaur tribes. The sylvari died in a unique way and became a sort of magical fertilizer, not the tree itself.

dontrippy.8906:

upping the party member limit would destroy the balance of the game if u ask me

It’s no different than just playing with folks in the open area or in WvW. There’s no mechanical benefit to it, with the rather minor exception of knowing where folks are – though for parties of 5, this is already provided.

So long as these increased party sizes cannot enter instances (either dungeons or personal story – though ps with just 2 folks is lol worthy), it’d be fine.

Though what I think I’d rather have is the squad-making ability available to all, and the commander being the icon and perhaps increases squad size by, say, 5 (note: number is randomly pulled out without knowing the size limit on squads).

Rather than reducing the price of tier 3, I’d rather see them turned into exotics.

Or both, nothing like having 2 panels – one for cheaper rare, one for more expensive exotic. And the same can be done to Tier 2 armor for that matter.

1) Kralkatorrik was never “known as earth” – initially he was thought to twist nature into nightmares, per The Movement of the World, but at the same time he was always called the desert dragon and he had concept art titled “water dragon” – but he was never an “earth dragon.”

2) Nothing really happened to the DSD. It’s just not active around continental Tyria, and since those in said continental Tyria are cut off with the rest of the world, they know little to nothing about it. Though earlier today I updated the deep sea dragon’s wiki page to include all information since release, since that was lacking. Basically since release all we got is confirmation of Elder Dragon influences forcing quaggans, krait, and karka out of the Unending Ocean depths (and supposedly largos too, since they come from the Unending Ocena depths and both they and quaggan talk about horrors/scary things there (words being used by the respective race)).

3) You can probably search Mordremoth/Modramoth (Mordramoth was a mispelling of the name which was first how it was mentioned). As Mystic said, there’s a lot of topics on it already. On this forum, Mordremoth is often used by folks attempting to connect the Pale Tree to being an Elder Dragon’s champion. This, however, doesn’t work despite common belief (though there is evidence to support the possibility that at least some parts of the Nightmare/Nightmare Court are tied to Mordremoth – but not the Pale Tree, Dream of Dreams, or sylvari race as a whole).

Some of the pre-existing threads, all gleaned from searching Mordremoth or Mordramoth, from newest to oldest:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Origin-of-The-Pale-Tree/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Who-is-this-Mordremoth/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/If-the-Pale-Tree-is-a-Dragon-Champion/first
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first – my personal research on the topic, though I have since gleaned new information and possibilities since writing this
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Mordramoth/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Spoilers-ArenaNet-confirms-the-fan-theories-about-Elder-Dragons/first

Warning: The threads speculating the Pale Tree is an ED/ED champion may sound reasonable, but they ignore a lot of important information.

If you want just the facts, well, the wiki’s pretty much all the pure cold hard facts we get. If you want an objective (or as best as a single human who fervently hates a specific popular hypothesis that’s being debunked in his research can provide) view of all possibilities (though outdated), my research is what I’d suggest (note: I’m not saying its better or more accurate, just that when I try to research, I try to be as objective as possible, and as I’ve said, most of the threads relating the Pale Tree to the sixth ED ignore some important facts – same with those who try to link the Six Gods with the six Elder Dragons).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

While it does makes sense that she is remembered as a hero, still greatest hero of humanity? Sounds to me like she worked on some propaganda while sitting in Ebonhawke. And even the most air-headed Ascalonian should have had heard of the human hero. That one guy, who stopped wars, killed evil gods, saved thousands if nor millions of lives. The problem is, the player never really got a title in GW1. Via a title the player can be addressed without revealing his/her gender (well atleast in english, in german it doesn’t work that way, but that is besides the point), as it is done in GW2.

I’m sure you know the issue of naming a player character. However, I’m curious. Where do you get that Gwen was the “greatest hero of humanity” because last I remember, it was greatest hero of Ascalon (and if she is called one of the greatest heroes of humanity, whether or not the greatest, it’s likely by Ascalonians and you should know by now that NPCs in GW2 are biased to hell and back).

And I think it would be possible for doing such in German – by giving the PC a title that would be neutral, rather than masculine or feminine. Mind you, I’m a fairly novice in German so I may be wrong. But even then, Germans give odd combinations for masculine and feminine nouns (take skirt for instance, in German it’s Der Rock – masculine; or mustache, which is feminine iirc (can’t recall what the word in German is). So even if they do give masculine or feminine case, it’s not absolute for whether the referred to object/person/place is masculine or feminine.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Ugh, her presence almost overshadows all those likeable heroes like Vekk, Ogden, Jora, Pyre (or Brandor as he is called in the german dub… the only given name change that was ever made /shrug).

Hardly. Gwen doesn’t have any statues – Jora has statues throughout Hoelbrak and elsewhere. Pyre also has at least one statue. Ogden is around in GW2, and is by far very prominent to norn storyline (even moreso for norn Priory). Vekk, you have a point there. But I think you’re overreacting on Gwen’s “prominence” in the lore.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Trahearne […] took some credit for things I did

Really? What did he do? He united the orders into the Pact? Nope. He killed Zhaitan? Nope. All Trahearne did was do the paperwork and make the decisions, and often gave you the choice of the role you wanted to play. I don’t think there’s a single thing he takes the credit for. The most you can get is NPCs saying he led the Pact to victory through Orr, which is partially true. While you’re the strongest fighter and without you certain aspects would have failed, Trahearne was the strategist who determined where to strike – you just chose how of some options, and did the striking. You wouldn’t have gone after the Eye of Zhaitan, Mouth of Zhaitan, or the reinforcement of undead without Trahearne giving the order to do so.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

However every deed I did in GW1, is forgotten. Not a single kitten is given about it. It’s gone. Blown away. And replaced by Gwen-worship. What the heck?

What the heck indeed. Because your wrong. True, there’s little mention of the GW1 PCs, but it’s rather hard to denote such in the subsequent game. I mean, even with linked accounts… which character is chosen from your GW1 account?

Also, again, the GW1 PC isn’t replaced by Gwen in the least. No one is.

So please, stop your BS and the woe is me, because it just isn’t true. I can understand how you don’t like Gwen’s personality, especially in Eye of the North and (god forbid) WiK/HotN. However, Gwen and Trahearne doesn’t steal any credit or replace either the GW1 or GW2 PCs.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I played Prophecies and Eye of the North, and because I did that, I can not comprehend how anyone could like her. One of the worst fictional characters in history.

I disagree. And the issue here is that your opinion is subjective (as is one’s on Trahearne). You are, in fact, the only person who I’ve seen said that the Prophecies Gwen annoyed them. Now, the EN Gwen I can see, and I fullheartedly agree with the WiK/HotN Gwen (why did they have to go and make her relapse after the EN quests were meant to be a “working out her problems” part? And why did I have to play the therapist?). But her being a hero is 100% understandable and makes sense.

Truth be told, I’m glad Gwen’s the captain who solidified Ebonhawke to be a fortress, and became hated by the charr as the Goremonger. You got a character who’s basically a case of Break the Cutie and shows she has issues, but overcomes them to greater hights. Yeah, it’s the same set up as Trahearne (except he came prepackaged broken), but it’s far better than a perfect hero beginning grand and becoming grander (imagine if Rurik didn’t die, and did manage to fulfill his goal of regathering strength and marching an army across the Shiverpeak Mountains, just to save Ascalon?). That would have been an annoying hero. A Gary Stue.

Humorously enough, I’ve already offered WP my aid in making them before. He turned me down because it’s meant to be a “casual means to introduce lore” (somehow, me fact checking him would remove this).

Orr was established roughly around 205 BE. The Six Gods left in Year 0 (or 0 AE), after Abaddon granted magic in 1 BE. Orr sank in the Cataclysm in 1071 AE. Kormir ascended to godhood in 1075 AE – four years after the Cataclysm.

Kormir wasn’t a god when Orr existed as a nation.

Abaddon isn’t included in the seer path of Arah explorable because when he was cast down the other gods removed (almost all) knowledge of Abaddon. Only small cults existed since, with highly limited knowledge (Vizier Khilbron was one of the rare followers of Abaddon since the gods’ fall though, and supposedly due to a demon, Razakiel, converting the vizier to the faith). Though some statues remained, and his temple was sunken beneath the waves (whereas the Temple of the Six Gods, defaced by Margonites, was pulled into the Realm of Torment). The seer path of Arah explorable has you fighting the last High Priest(ess) of the gods in Orr, so neither Abaddon nor Kormir had a priest(ess), let alone a High Priest(ess).

Panda Shepard.1248:

Meh. He was fine. I liked him well enough he just wasn’t anything interesting(never understood the hate there).

Lutinz.6915:

Will Trahearne lead the Pact against the other EDs? I suspect yes. He is the Pact’s Marshal.

Will he play as big a role as he did against Zhaitan? I suspect not. With Orr, the fight was a very personal one for Trahearne. Cleansing Orr had been the reason for his existance since he was born and until proded along by the Player Character, one he considered impossible.

With the other EDs, I suspect you will see other characters and groups involved. Trahearne and the other pact commanders will almost certianly play a role as the Pact’s purpose is to fight the EDs.

However I dont expect that fighting the other dragons will just be a rinse/repeat of Zhaitan. Zhaitan we fought with a direct invasion against the center of his power and crippled him. The other dragons will probably have their own unique challanges we have to overcome. The story will get rather dull otherwise.

Said everything I would have already.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I don’t want another Gwen fiasko, were an already unlikeable character get’s pushed into the spotlight and ends up getting called greastest hero of humanity (in Gwen’s case) or Tyria (in Trahearne’s case).

Trahearne’s never called a great hero, actually. It’s you, the commander, who led the Pact to victory against Zhaitan.

You should pay more attention to NPC dialogue during personal stories. I mean, you’re called “The Dragonslayer” by a group of partying norn, while Trahearne’s just “the marshal” to them.

5. What you argue makes no sense. So they were in three places at once, but only the one you did? That’s a paradox there. And which would be the “actual happenings”? All three couldn’t occur at the same time.

Space argument fails because the asura gate is after you meet Ogden. You don’t go through one, or any other kind of portal, before meeting Ogden and co. Therefore, you travel roughly the same distance, placing you beneath Lion’s Arch, Kamadan, or Kaineng City despite the fact each of the three versions would take place at the same time. The Linsey Murdock stuff.

@Mechos (rather than quoting):

1. Actually, all we know is that there are rumors that the Echovald and Jade Sea began de-petrifying beginning no later than 1078 AE. But they’re only rumors. And these rumors can begin by only a handful of plants, or a bit of water found beneath deep jade mines. Furthermore, there’s no point of reference of whether there’s actual de-petrification and not a case of new life/the Jade Wind never freezing the entire sea (but only the top portion); similarly, there’s no point of reference for how fast things are de-petrifying. I mean, there’s no real reason why Shiro’s second death or Abaddon’s death has anything to do with this, so the de-petrifying, if the rumors are true, could have been slowly occurring since the Jade Wind, and is only noticeable in tiny amounts 200 years later. Meaning that unless there’s an acceleration in the rate of de-petrifying, even in GW2 most of the Echovald and Jade Sea will be petrified still.

Also, Usoku did block off all trade, and people aren’t really longterm planners when full of xenophobic propaganda like what the Ministry of Purity spouts. And even then, he has historical support to show Cantha can support itself – however, these cases were before the Jade Wind, mostly, so Kaineng City was much smaller.

2. True, we don’t find wild dragon minions corrupted by multiple dragons. However, we don’t see dragon minions interacting outside CoE and Vexa’s Lab. The closest we get is Kessex Hills or Timberline Falls, where there are destroyers and risen in the same map, but the whole map apart from each other. So we can’t really say there’s no destroyer that got Branded-ified. Also, based on the ED’s preference of corruption, some combinations are impossible (e.g., risen destroyer – destroyers aren’t ever living beings, risen always are dead beings).

As to Urgoz: yes, he was but he wasn’t petrified – same with Saltspray Dragons and kirins. “the Kurzicks blame Urgoz, a corrupted forest spirit” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Amatz_Basin_%28outpost%29

3a. No, actually, it’s outright stated to be The Artesian Waters during The Cathedral of Silence story step. It is The Source of Orr, and outright stated that its magic is what drew the Six Gods from the Mists to Tyria, as well as being where they first stepped foot on the world, and that Zhaitan corrupted this magic source (hence the whole point of the final personal story step before facing Zhaitan).

With the Jade Wind, you’re now tossing canon lore aside just to fit your theory. Nothing says Mordremoth is in Cantha, however, and we see its influence in Tyria – Mordremoth holds more influence in Tyria than the deep sea dragon. This implies its closer. We’re told that the magic comes from the gods, so until we’re given implication to believe otherwise this is fact.

You are right on one thing: Abaddon did find magic sources. The Forbidden Scrolls held magic in them. They were its own magical source (being imbued with magic from before the Bloodstone’s division), and the Jade Wind comes from the other gods’ divine magic. They didn’t come from Elder Dragons.

So stop tossing aside canon facts that have no indication of being false just to fit your rather far-fetched hypothesis. (This said, I agree there may be an ED in Cantha, but a 7th one rather than Mordremoth).

3b. True, it isn’t very clear. However, his shout (“Nooooooo”) was the same, his posture was the same, both occurred at time of death, Suun and his acolytes did something to turn him into Jade (what the Jade Wind does to living beings). So this is logical deduction on my part. Where’d he get the power? He spent the entirity of Factions searching for knowledge and power on how to break the curse, was a powerful Envoy, spent 200 years wandering the Underworld before becoming an Envoy, and was tipping the balance by controlling souls. There’s a lot of places for him to obtain such, especially since the emperor’s blood seems to be special (thus so would Togo’s). And nothing said the Jade Wind was a one-time thing if the person managed to be resurrected.

4. Read those articles again, because they don’t talk about conflict between Kralkatorrik and anyone else. There’s only one source for the conflicts in the Crystal Desert: The Movement of the World (note, that’s a verbatim copied text, not fan-written), and that only states conflict between the dragon of Orr (as he wasn’t named during the writing of the article) and Elona’s borders.

And no, given how little there’s mention of the DSD at all, there’d be no indication or mention of Zhaitan fighting it. Especially given how in-game there’s no mention of Zhaitan’s forces battling northern Elona.

TBH, I never paid attention to the movement of the sun and moon in-game. That’s an interesting observation, and could be mechanics – in fact I’d argue such because we have static shadow directions and, atop of this, it’s probably easier to code this way than a rotating moon/sun. But if it is lore, and there’s a possibility that its intentional, this is a very interesting point of evidence.

TBH, I have thought about making a lore video series, but me doing such wouldn’t be in the form of WP’s dailies, rather I’d be sure to research what I’d discuss thoroughly even if I’m confident in my knowledge of the topic – and I’d link all the sources in the video’s description. (And should a mistake show, I’d just add a caption that youtube allows at the point where I make the mistake – so only those who aren’t watching wouldn’t see the correction).

But I decided not to – I doubt my voice would be liked as much as WP’s. :P

I see, in which case you are mistaking in which what was being talked about. Three gods in Arah at the time – not three gods in existence at the time. In other words: three gods were somewhere else when Doric made his plead.

Dustfinger.9510:

You have always been quick to point out the higherarchy of interviews over NPC’s. Why change?

Actually, it’s newer evidence ranks higher than interviews, but objective facts provided by a developer supersedes those provided by NPCs. However, this isn’t the case of objective fact, where they’re equal.

But my point isn’t in hierarchy of NPCs vs. interviews. This is about the fact that you’re saying Jeff states something he doesn’t.

Dustfinger.9510:

They are NOT conflicting views. They are diffrent ways of viewing the same thing. So they CAN both be right.

Different views of the same thing which cannot co-exist.

Because Group A says that Group C is 1 and not 2, but Group B says that Group C is 2 and not 1.

Ergo, Group A disagrees with Group B. Therefore, both cannot be right at the same time.

It could be the case if it was Group A says that Group C is 1, while Group B says that Group C is 2, if and only if Group C was 1 and 2. However, for Group A to be right in the actual situation, Group B must be wrong. Therefore, they’re contradictory views.

Dustfinger.9510:

They would all have come from the “building blocks of reality" wich would be the mists.

Ergo, only one set of the Six Gods exist. Because the Mists contain within it the multiverse (yes, GW has a multiverse, but not necessarily multiple dimensions). If the multiple dimensions thing truly does exist, then by the “common theory” Jeff says (according to the interview), each universe would be a different dimension of the same universe. So if they come from the Mists, and not another universe (aka dimension), then they cannot have multiple counterparts. Kormir would, but there’d only be one Kormir the goddess while the rest would just be Kormir the dead-a-human.

Dustfinger.9510:

Thank you for explaining how the theory that I apparently introduced you to works?

You apparently don’t see how the multiverse theory (which no, you didn’t introduce to me – it’s a common sci-fi story scenario) doesn’t support your hypothesis at all, and you’d be better off if you just dropped it completely, because quite frankly, it only hurts your argument – but you fail to see this, it seems.

Dustfinger.9510:

Not so. As per my civilization analogy, in wich civilization harnesses the power of baser instinct, the gods would still harness the power of the ED’s.

That makes no sense. For starters, civilization doesn’t “harness the power of baser instinct.” And on top of that, nothing you said indicates a harnessing of power, since harnessing is proactive and your argument shows a passive obtaining if power (“born with it” basically).

Dustfinger.9510:

Absolutley did. What specifically are you refering to?

The same thing I have been – Abaddon’s power going haywire upon death. It doesn’t act like how you argue Zhaitan’s could. If they don’t act the same, they’re not of the same design, which is what your argument is gearing towards

Dustfinger.9510:

That doesn’t debunk it at all since fire, seasons, darness, etc. are still powers that rule tyria and could stil have physical embodiments. So primordius doesn’t need to be the spirit of fire. how about ruintion, or detruction, or even “first fire” ince he is a primevl force as stated by A-net? But keep thrashing around. You’ll have a hard time proving a loose theory wrong when we have so little confirmation of details.

Primordus is fire, no ands ifs or buts about that. And now you’re just grasping at straws to keep your “theory” afloat. First fire? Then what’s the Spirit of Fire? Second fire? There’s only one kind of fire. By your arguments, because the Six Gods are “Spirits of Action” the Elder Dragons would thus be “Spirits of Nature” – which is exactly what Egil talks about. However, those spirits mentioned by Egil are not Elder Dragons. This means that the Elder Dragons couldn’t be Spirits of Nature, and there aren’t ever any two Spirits of the Wild representing the same thing (similar for gods, or spirit/god overlapping).

This is where the debunking is. By your very argument, a Spirit of the Wild would be the first of its kind too, but it represents something that the Elder Dragons – or Spirits of Nature by your argument – do. Same goes for the Six Gods. So if there is already a spirit akin to the Spirits of the Wild that represents fire, which is what Primordus represents, then either they’re the same or your argument is wrong.

And you’ll have a hard time proving “a loose theory” (yours) right as well. Or even tangible, for that matter. However, disproving them is fairly easy, as I have done already (alongside just general weakening), but you fail to admit it.

Mechos.5640:

Asura: The Asura had a portal linking to underground ruins of unknown origin (I would speculate Asuran, or at least a place of Asuran interest, since they already had a functioning gate there). A shaky reason, admittedly, but still a historical connection.

Eh, not really. The existence of an asura gate under Kaineng or Kamadan is highly dubious, for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, it was stated by Linsey Murdock that the NF’s quests to Tyria/Cantha that mention long-gone threats is not canon, but implemented to allow players from NF go to play Prophecies/Factions. Furthermore, the existence of these two asura gates would mean that Ogden, Vekk, and all those others were underneath Lion’s Arch, Kamadan, and Kaineng City at the same time – or those very very short tunnels reached across the Unending Ocean/Crystal Desert. Highly unlikely. Those two gates are unlikely to be canon.

Mechos.5640:

Norn: I would argue that the Norn might see some similarity between the Celestials and their own Spirits; there is certainly enough there that they could build on some sort of connection. Not to mention, Norn would probably go to Cantha just to be able to say they were the first Norn in Cantha, and build their legend. Doesn’t really need more to lure norn somewhere than saying it’ll make you famous.

Stronger connection would be Zhu Hanuku, which is called a spirit of the sea. Zhu Hanuku has always reminded me of some sort of Kraken Spirit (corrupted by the Jade Wind). I bet the norn would call him Kraken.

Gregorius.1024:

the Emperor received a blessing directly from Dwayna herself, with the accompanying Ritualists as witnesses. Shiro corrupted this power through a dark ritual, studied from Abaddon.

Just want to note: Dwayna’s not present, as far as we know, and we don’t know where Shiro found about the dark ritual (I’d guess some royal library, tbh).

Mechos.5640:

1. Well, Shing Jea is mentioned as being particularly bountiful… and the assumption that Cantha must be bountiful is based on simple logic, as I mention above.

This is only due to Cantha having opened trade with Tyria. To quote An Empire Divided “Shing Jea Island, heavily logged for centuries, began the long road to recovery in this year, resulting in the pastoral agricultural land (Cantha’s breadbasket) seen today. " The year being 221 AE. Incidentally, Shing Jea becoming farmland led to the Tengu Wars, since it was previously mostly tengu and yeti territory.

Now, consider this: without trade, where will they get their much needed lumber? From the large forest that’s still stone? They basically removed all the forests of Shing Jea, and even then, it’s unlikely that it provided food for Luxons and Kurzicks too, since they were vassal states.

All indications point to Cantha being in material poverty, unless they expanded south or demolished some of their city to make way for planting.

Mechos.5640:

One other point in favour of the wardens being some sort of elder dragon minion… is that the wardens (and, indeed, Urgoz) were entirely immune to the effects of the Jade Wind. And what just happens to be immune to the effects of Elder Dragon corruption? Dragon minions (and Sylvari).

BZZT. Wrong. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha are all beings corrupted by multiple Elder Dragon energies. Only sylvari and forgotten magic are immune. Also, Urgoz was corrupted by the Jade Wind.

Mechos.5640:

I believe it was one of the story quests in Orr that hinted towards a connection between Zhaitan being responsible for at least part of the reason why Orr was such an intrinsically magical land. Magic which, I believe it was hinted, provided something of the ‘source’ for Vizier Khilbron to use the Forbidden Scrolls and sink the nation.

In the personal story, the only hint of magic would be the independently magical The Artesian Waters – Zhaitan was stated to be a magical source though, in an interview and in explorable Arah (seer path). However, the source for the Forbidden Scrolls was never elaborated – as far as I’ve seen (and by now I’ve done about 2/3rds of the personal storyline options) in GW2. So we only have the Prophecies manuals to go off of: magic that predates the gift of magic by the gods.

Even then, your thoughts are still debunked. It was magic granted by the five gods that got twisted via an ancient dark ritual that caused the Jade Wind (Abaddon didn’t go whipping out a magical nuke in either case).

Mechos.5640:

But the Elder Dragons collect, and consume magic. I believe that, by performing the rituals to their dieties, Mordramoth was claiming that magic for itself; siphoning it off little by little, growing day by day.

Right. But you see, this was magic given to the emperors and stolen by Shiro. The Jade Wind was caused by Shiro himself. No tapping into ancient powers, except what you’re now claiming was being stolen by an Elder Dragon. There’s a flaw there.

Also, Shiro was going to unleash a second Jade Wind in his death during Factions – but Suun, the Oracle of the Mists, and three of his adepts made it backlash, turning Shiro alone into Jade (you can tell this is what’s happening by his posture, and the deathwail – both of which is the same as the Factions trailer).

Mechos.5640:

Though I will say that, since we know the Elder Dragons fight each other (Kralky vs. Zhaitan in the Crystal Desert, for example), the fact that Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD makes me believe that… frankly, Bubbles doesn’t really care what’s going on at the surface, at least for the moment. That all could change, certainly, but… he seems more of a sea-floor dwelling type. Consider the races he’s already pushed out, not a lot of them spent time on the surface.

Nothing indicates Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik’s forces were fighting – the only known conflict in the Crystal Desert would be Risen vs. Elonians.

And nothing says Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD’s minions (also, Zhaitan’s fleet sail underwater until attack). And krait spent plenty of time on the surface of water too.

(more in next post)

He corrected himself on that, true, after I PM’d him about it. coughs

But point remains unchanged, really. People take his videos as bible for lore more often than not, and a lot of people already know about it. There’s no need to sticky it and overall he’s not a reliable source. Most of the hypotheses and theories he brings up aren’t even his, but those he’s seen on forums and he gives no indication that they’re not his.

However, this thread is entirely pointless overall and can and probably will lead to flames. So this is my last post here.

Dustfinger.9510:

meanwhile jeff says the whole question of gods is a question of culture…vs some npc’s whom you are famous for pointing out their falibility

Since you seemingly couldn’t read between the lines, what I meant was that a culture doesn’t hold a single view. So why would one view be more accurate than the other when there’s no support for either side views? Because it was used in Jeff’s example? Take note: there is NEVER any mention of “Spirits of Action” by the norn in-game; similarly, the Spirits of the Wild are never called gods except by an asura’s journal.

“not at all. I’m stating that they are BOTH right. Jeff also never implies that one might be right. he compares both views in a kitten for-tat fashion that seems to at least put them on a similar level.”

This is precisely my point. They’re contradicting views on the subject, so it is actually impossible for them to be both right. Because the norn say “they are not gods, they are spirits” while the humans say “they are not spirits, they are gods.” They can’t both be right.

“So, your saying it MAY be wrong. Not that it actually is My theory still stands at this point.”

At this point, it’s a hypothesis. A theory has evidence backing it, which that “interview” is not.

“I’m not sure what your speaking to. They came from the mists. The mist that would be connected to all tyrias”

But NOTHING AT ALL implies, indicates, or hints at them coming from an alternate dimension. And in fact, by the interview’s meaning of multiple dimensions, this would actually be impossible. Why? Because it means that every copy of Dwayna, Balthazar, Abaddon, and so forth, came from another dimension. Meaning for every dimension of Tyria that exists, the Six Gods came from somewhere else. So it’d be a paradox if they came from Tyria, while not coming from Tyria.

Point is: they don’t come from Tyria. So they wouldn’t come from an alternate dimension of Tyria, because in that Tyria, since the Six Gods arriving is a major event, they had to come from somewhere else in those other Tyrias.

That’s how the theory works – the major events are all the same (generally), but the minor events can change. In other words, in every alternate dimension of Tyria, Kormir replaced Abaddon. In turn, in all Tyrias, the Six Gods came from another world. Both are major events, and the former (Kormir replacing Abaddon) cannot occur without the Six Gods first arriving.

“We don’t know the gods came from another world. or that that “other world” wasn’t the mists wich are the “building blocks of reality”. They could easily have originated in the mists becasue of the events that would be common to all universes."

…You are now contradicting yourself “they came from an alternate Tyria” “we don’t know the gods came from another world” – another Tyria = another world. But, yes, we do. But your example just now, to try to justify your theory, would still be countering your theory. GG

“..and.. that was the point.. about how the gods could still harness the power of the ED’s and still adhere to my theory.”

But in your most recent iteration, there is no gods harnessing powers of the Elder Dragons. The gods just came into being after the Elder Dragons by your latest explanation. And the Spirits of the Wild between the two.

“And finally, zaitans death may have actually made the other spirits that embody death stronger if he isn’t being reborne elsewhere, becasue it would be an ushering in of a new age of death without the primevil death as a possibility.”

You never played GW1, have you? Cuz that’s just not how a god’s power works.

Also, I remembered something that outright debunks your theory:

“There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world…spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller

A spirit of fire, hostile and possibly malicious, despite the fact the norn had no knowledge whatsoever of Primordus. In other words, this “Spirit of Fire” is not Primordus. But Primordus would be a “Spirit of Fire” by your theory. Ergo, Elder Dragons != Spirits of the Wild level (I suppose these would be “Spirits of Nature”?)

Dustfinger.9510:

This is where we disagree. A-net describes spirits of the wild and gods in a kitten for tat fashion. “the norn view them to be like the Spirits of the Wild …and the humans view spirits of the wild to be gods”

Wrong. How they are viewed. Not how they are.

We’re not in agreement anywhere. Jeff only stated that the norn view the Six Gods as Spirits of Action. However, we know that at least some humans consider the Spirits of the Wild to be lesser than their gods – specifically, to be under Melandru’s domain.

Now, if you’re claim that “they did not say it was only norn who saw them this way so norn might be wrong” is right, which by Jeff’s wording it is not so (he leaves it open for which view is right – are the gods spirits, or are the spirits gods?), then you’re also stating that human belief is wrong.

Dustfinger.9510:

No. I go by a-nets description. “universes are spawned around major events. In every universe, there would be a Kormir, Abaddon would be a god, and things like that.”

[…]

It’s pretty confirmed

You kind of miss the key point. IF there were. Also, next time, it’d be helpful to site it. You should also take note that the source (for those interested) is not verbatim. Meaning that it’s based off of this Conner’s paraphrasing of Jeff Grubb’s words, so its not infallible.

Furthermore, we kind of see a degree of this in the personal story – asura Infinity Ball and the “A Light in the Darkness” step. However, you still fall upon the same issue:

The Six Gods didn’t come from Tyria. And they arrived on the world as gods (at least three did).

Dustfinger.9510:

I assume they come from the mists which anet described as “the building blocks of reality,…. homes of the various gods and other powerful entities.”

Right, that’s in reference to the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Realm of Torment, and perhaps three others.

We know that humans and the Six Gods – presumably forgotten as well – come from another world. But nothing – and I do mean nothing – implies another dimension. This is where the flaw stands. In order for the Six Gods’ power to come from Elder Dragons, they had to have come from either another world’s Elder Dragons, or another dimension’s Elder Dragons. All indications show that the Elder Dragons are unique to Tyria (lack of Mist contact outside havroun manipulation).

Dustfinger.9510:

Anet has said something to the effect of the gods aren’t unchangeable but the mantle of godhood is. so the personalities may well have harnessed the power by taking on the unchangeable mantle of godhood.

And? Your theory was that the gods’ power came from the Elder Dragons. If they were gods outside of the presence of Elder Dragons, then it is therefore impossible for them to have obtained their power from the Elder Dragons.

Dustfinger.9510:

So, my theory is the ED’s, spirits of the wild and gods are actually physical representations of the forces that govern the world. First were raw primevil elements of wich the ED’s represent. As life flourished we see the spirits of the wild born onto tyria. Only ever possible due to the more base primevil forces. Finally we have the gods, who are a representation and embodiment of the world seen through the eyes of intelligent beings. But underlying all this, all the spirits of the wild and action, the ancient primevil forces make it all possible just as civilization is the harnessed instinct of our own base, raw and primevil instincts.

if my theory is correct and we can look at it like this then the larger struggle on tyria is ultimately a struggle between the zeitgeists of the various ages.

This rephrasing does make more sense, however, you’re ignoring something very important (well, not ignoring, since you use it in your argument, but still not taking it into every account):

A gods’ power cannot be destroyed. If it loses its container (the god itself dies), it becomes violent and threatens explosion, destroying all reality nearby (and “nearby” means including Tyria (the world) when in the heart of the Realm of Torment). However, no such thing happened when Owl died – unless Jormag absorbed this power – and no such thing happened when Zhaitan died. Therefore, it is outright proven that the Six Gods and Elder Dragons are not in the same category. Their source of power is vastly different – one is destroyable, the other isn’t. Furthermore, Elder Dragons are more like parasites. They become powerful by feasting on magic.

At best, Elder Dragons are the Six Gods’ antecedent. A god’s natural predator, if you will.

Off the top of my head? Only a video where he said the skill challenge golem in Zone Green of Mount Maelstrom spouts binary that translates into “Pale Tree” (it is “end transmission sequence” iirc). I typically don’t care enough to remember what he gets wrong, though that one fueled a big series of fusses over “Pale Tree=Elder Dragon” based primarily on that “fact.”

I’m with BunnytheSwordsman. Given how Wintersday went, it seems that ArenaNet learned their lesson with the Ancient Karka fiasco. The chances of them doing one-time events is unlikely.

This is even moreso if it changes old content, because as Bunny said, it won’t be fair to new players. Imagine that you haven’t heard about Guild Wars 2 yet, and you get it this coming weekend because you finally found out about it and got urged to try it out. Now, imagine, last month they held a one-time event where Zhaitan was rampaging across all three Orr zones, ending with a grand finale at Fort Trinity.

You never saw this. Now you go through the personal story with all the “Zhaitan must be taken down!” but he is dead, been dead for a month, and you will never ever get to fight him. The threat’s just… gone, except within your personal story.

You’d be kitten right?

Ratphink.4751:

Except there’s no defined timeline, so your entire basis of ‘chapter per month’ is really just pulling numbers out of thin air to try and create a timeline where there is none.

August: Release
September: <Saw a nameless large update, as well as the most smaller updates (both size and amount)>
October: Shadow of the Mad King
November: The Lost Shores
December: Wintersday
January: Frost and Flame: Prelude
February: Frost and Flame: The Gathering Shore
March: Frost and Flame: <insert part 3 title>
April: (Supposedly) Frost and Flame: <insert part 4 title>

September holding no content update is not surprising given how the game released late August. Anet would need time to observe the game when it handles millions of players, rather than hundreds of testers (possibly thousands, but I find that unlikely). And even then, they stilled had a large update that month. Currently, empirical evidence points to a large (content) update every month. This makes sense, as it’ll also contain non-emergency patches, bug fixes, and skill balancing. A monthly schedule overall makes the most sense, and seems to be Anet’s route.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

My bad, skimmed the post it seems
But, it still stands that unless they mention april, I think it’ll still end in March sometime

Unlikely, if part 1 is Janruary, and part 2 is February.

bluejay.6739:

“This comes up every few weeks in this forum. most regular visitors know bout it.”

Hmmm… so this topic keeps coming up again and again? Interesting…

If there was only some kind of concept, technique, or procedure that would allow one to take frequently occurring information in a forum, centralize it, and make it highly visible so that everyone could see it. That might prevent posts like this from reoccurring ‘every few weeks’.

Yeah, something like that would be amazing…

One would think this, wouldn’t they? However, on Guru2, a link to WP’s youtube channel was put in a sticky. But yet video threads kept on coming and coming – half by the same person, who was already told “there’s a thread about this already” but continued to make a new thread for each video.

Then there’s the whole issue of how much of them is either speculation or just wrong facts.