Guild Wars 2

Who said the Elder Dragons were corrupted?

When talking about dragons in this thread’s context, we’re talking about a race of flying reptiles, aka traditional dragons, rather than eldritch abominations that happen to have a similar shape to dragons and are not at all like traditional dragons.

I’ll have to re-read Edge of Destiny, but I think the point of calling the Elder Dragons “true dragons” is to point out the difference between their shape and dragon champions’ shape. Recall that though four dragon champions are fought and called such, only Glint was actually dragon shaped – and she was called, as you pointed out, “another dragon – a lesser dragon”.

It does hint to there being “actual dragons” but it can also just be a differentiating between non-dragon-shaped dragon champions, and dragon-shaped entities (Elder Dragons and dragon-shaped dragon champions ala Tequatl, Claw, Glint, Shadow).

Interestingly, those look like unique graves. Yet they use New Kyrtan, rather than Orrian. I don’t recall them being translated so I did the pleasure.

First image:

Grave of the Scrybe (yes, Scrybe – I don’t get the typo either)
Until the day break
And shadows flee

Second image:
Here lies Tirzah
She sleepeth with
Those she loved
Until the day breaks

Tirzah caught my eye so a wiki search. It led to:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tirzah_Bauer An Anet employee
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tirzah

The first one likely is a nod to The Scribe

Going off of these two alone, seems that “Until the day break(s)” is a common Orrian (if not used elsewhere) phrase for graves? Which would be befitting for a kingdom of faith, Orr being akin to the Hebrew word for “light” and a lot of Orrian culture relating to brightness/holiness/light.

Edit: Beaten by Tuomir.

One thing I want to point out:

Lehtomaki.8705:

So its been many years since i quit GW1 and i loved the story/lore but as the years passed by i dont remember much about it and because of that i didnt get a hang of the GW2 story…

You have absolutely no need to know GW1 lore for GW2 story to make sense. If it doesn’t make sense, then it may be that you experienced the switched-around and not the original version of the storyline, which changed in early September. What happened was that there was a storyline after the Claw Island arc that got cut out almost completely (only “Forging the Pact” and “The Battle for Fort Trinity” remained), and the ending (“Against the Corruption” to “The Source of Orr”) was placed after what was kept of that cut storyline. Resulting in an entirely confusion of a plot.

On top of that, you pretty much have to explore every storyline for things to make sense in the first place. You won’t know very much about the human lore unless you do all seven human personal storylines, for example. If you playthrough the game on a single character, you only get a very minimal viewpoint of the storyline.

This goes double if you skip the dungeon story modes before doing Arah story aka Victory or Death (or do them out of order, or begin them before doing “Setting the Stage” personal story step, which is now a level 40 step despite the first dungeon, which story-wise takes place after it, is level 30).

In other words, thanks to the reverse-branching design of the personal story, it’s very easy to not understand it without playing through the entire three at least three times, and partially up to 15 times.

Knowledge of GW1 lore will only be helpful in very small portions. And this only refers to knowledge of Prophecies, Eye of the North, and War in Kryta.

Though I wouldn’t be as harsh as Thalador with that, GW2 does tie very little into the lore of GW1. It seems that the backlash of players not liking this has got them to be going into the direction of tying in GW1 lore – but it’s still rather minimal currently. Still, overall, they’d have probably had better reception if they made GW2 to be in an entirely new continent.

As for places to read up on GW lore, aside from the two links Thalador provided (for sake of size, I’ll link hub pages when I can):

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storyline
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Lore
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:History of Tyria
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timeline
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Lore
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Tales

I’d like to note that a lot of GW1 lore has become more and more irrelevant – not only in that it doesn’t show up, but it’s outright contradicted. This is now even going for GW2 interviews, blog posts, and the like from pre-release.

If you’re interested in good forum threads to read, well I have no compilation of official forum threads but here’s a link for Guru, Guru2, and IncGamer GW lore threads of interest:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/271-priory-archives-includes-lore-documents-and-interviews/#entry8431

Note: That hasn’t been updated in ages, so links may not work. Maybe I’ll go about updating it… maybe. If Anet can make me love the game’s lore again.

Sankofa Jimiyu.1567:

As a joke, I hope the devs make a version with coconut mamarries for all the people being prudish over literally nothing.

Only if the charr version has three pairs of them, and male versions are duplicates of the female version regardless of race.

Forgot this last time: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Abbadon-first-champion-of-Zhaitan/first#content

Recent discussion on a similar topic.

The dead bodies sticking around for so long after the sinking of Orr is another oddity.
So, was Zhaitan killed with the cataclysm then corrupted by his own magics or was it just a release of his power. The long term preservation of bodies could be attributed to his leaking magics, possibly due to the shift in his nature.

As in, when the city was thriving magic was a common and wondrous thing. After the destruction and ascent from the depths it became a corrupted land.
Instead of wonders by living beings the undead wonder aimlessly until willed.

In order:

Why is it odd that dead bodies remain in place? Would dead bodies usually just up and move themselves?

It was confirmed in an interview that the Cataclysm had no effect on Zhaitan.

Those corrupted by Zhaitan always appear rotten, even if they’re newly dead – in the books, you see that people don’t even hit the floor before becoming risen, and their skins instantly turn grey and their blood putrid and bile. In certain PS story steps, such as Against the Corruption, we see individuals corrupted coming back within minutes just as rotten as others. It would not be hard to believe that Zhaitan’s corruption can restore rotten flesh just as well as rot good flesh, given that Elder Dragon corruption always creates a physical change.

The notion of Orr becoming corrupted after the Cataclysm isn’t an off one, either, however. There are several things hinting to the Cataclysm – or another magic – having a lasting effect. Freezing waters, constinuously cloudy skies, etc. that are even mentioned upon in GW2-modern Orr. But this doesn’t mean the Cataclysm had an effect on Zhaitan, per se.

The notion of body preservation and land corruption post-Cataclysm was discussed a bit in this thread not too long ago.

Ishmael.6740:

Where did you even get that it would need dead bodies?

As far as I understood Zhaitans corruption, it would turn living things into “Risen”, not classical undead, but living things corrupted by the Dragon of Undeaths power.

Zhaitan could have awoken, say, right next to Lions Arch and would have turned it’s people into Risen, they didn’t need to be dead for that. In this it works as Kralkatorriks Corruption.

Or am I mistaken? I forgot who said that, but I’m pretty sure it’s stated ingame.

It’s shown throughout the game and books that Zhaitan almost always kills first and corrupts second.

The exception to this are Kellach and Necromancer Rissa, potentially those who wore the amulets created by Rissa.

You are correct in saying that risen are not traditional undead, but the reason why “undead” and “risen” are interchangeably used by Tyrians is because Risen are created 99.99 with a lot of 9s% from dead bodies. Just like how those two terms and “Orrian” are used interchangeably because the source of risen is Orr.

We see that he can corrupt living beings – but he doesn’t seem to “prefer” it. Kellach only became corrupted via an artifact. Possibly Rissa as well (via the Dragon Crystal). In all other cases beyond those two, those who become corrupted are killed first.

I have never seen it said anywhere that Zhaitan would corrupt living beings directly. In fact, everything I’ve seen points to the opposite: that Zhaitan’s corruption only spreads to living beings through indirect means (be they plants or wildlife). The most common cases being when wildlife devour risen corpses, and they become toxic and spread diseases to the other plants and animals nearby (there’s a heart detailing all of this, but we see these effects throughout Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen).

BrettM.9062:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As far as we know, dragons are not natural creatures, but corrupted non-dragon’s shifted into a new form akin to Mouth of Zhaitan and other bizarre minions.

I’m not so sure of that. The impression I’ve always had, particularly from Edge of Destiny, is that dragons may have once been the dominant life forms of Tyria. Perhaps the original dominant races were draconic, but most were either corrupted or destroyed when the Elders first manifested.

I was speaking of the dragon champions we see in GW2. The Shatterer, Shadow of the Dragon, and Claw of Jormag are very clearly constructs, and Tequatl and co. can easily be created in a similar fashion to risen abominations.

But there’s no absolute proof on the later, hence the “as far as we know”.

Glint’s line from Edge of Destiny is in reference to the Elder Dragons dominating the world, not so much a dragon race. It’s a fine point to make, but in GW2 the terms “dragons” and “Elder Dragons/dragon minions” are pretty much interchangeably used, though they mean two very different things. Similar to how we see undead, Orrian, and risen used interchangeably, despite the fact there’s a very big difference between the three on a literal scale. This use of improper interchangeable uses is just to show the viewpoint of Tyrians.

What meaning Glint’s line about a world dominated by dragons has, isn’t very clear. But the dragons we see in modern day hold no evidence to having been actual dragons pre-corruption.

You say that as if there aren’t already a dozen armor sets that make female charr/asura topless.

Secondly, this is hardly an issue for the charr. The lore behind the female charr shirt is really that it’s just their out-of-armor casual clothing (see Ghosts of Ascalon). They don’t need to cover anything up because they’re covered with fur already. The asura also don’t have pronounced breasts in the same manner as humans/norn/sylvari, so it similarly isn’t that much of a problem, doubly so since there are no nipples being shown.

We see topless hylek, where’s the complaints about that? We see topless krait, where’s the complaints with that? Complaining about female charr/asura being topless is rather akin to complaining that animals don’t wear clothing. Unlike humans, asura don’t have pronounced breasts and the lore behind their culture shows that it’s an uncared for physical aspect.

Bazompora.2635:

Provided the still-human Druids have no relict offshoot, that would be.

According the lore, there is no “still-human” druids.

@Thalador: Shiny isn’t Tequatl shaped at all, thus irrelevant. Also, Shiny’s larger than the miniature in question. Also, I mentioned Shiny.

As for “what the Bone Dragons were in life” question, I found an oooooold article from 2004 about GW1 lore, specifically the undead army (there was another I found on the charr army, and another on Sorrow’s Furnace).

Link

And what it says about Bone Dragons?

“Of course, any evaluation of the undead army would be incomplete without an account of the “Big Bad”—the bone dragon. In death, this beast is more than five times the height of a man—over thirty feet long. When it was raised from the grave, its powerful front claws pulled its tremendous girth out of the soil with such force that it tore its own body in half. In unlife, it drags itself across the ground, spitting putrescence and ravaging all who dare get within reach."

The fact it was raised from the grave means its no construct; and given that we’re seeing only the “top” half of it, and given the shape we see, it was likely the shape of a dragon looking like Glint.

It isn’t much, but it’s more than we get from in the games.

@Yumiko Ishida: That’s purely mechanical, and not lore-based at all.

1) Technically, there’s never been confirmation that the undead were a direct effect of the Cataclysm spell. The lore says that rumors claim that the undead wander due to their instant death – that they don’t realize they’re dead. If this is truth, then Khilbron simply took control of these undead that were formed not from the spell itself, but from dying so fast from the spell.

If the rumor isn’t true, then do we even know that the Cataclysm made the undead? The Corsairs settled the islands rather easily between the time of Prophecies and Zhaitan’s rise, after all, and we know that Khilbron didn’t bring the whole modern population of Orr with him – which he would have if he had control of them all.

The Scepter of Orr seems to have given him command over souls – it did for us, during Sanctum Cay, and the only creatures he summons after the mission are Shock Phantoms, aka souls (specifically, he summons the souls of the Stone Summit we literally just slew – or so it seems), and supposedly the Scepter gave him command over the titans, which are in essence, twisted and tormented souls.

2) I don’t know where you get “[the Lost Scrolls] were found by the Old Gods when they first came to Arah, " because this is not proven or even hinted, nor is it “all that’s known”. What’s said is that they predate the Bloodstone – however, this is in context to the original Bloodstone lore – that the Bloodstone was created in 1 BE/Year 0; this means that all that’s known about its history is that it “predates the retracting of the gift of magic” and that it most likely “was made after the gift of magic was given” – in other words, the most likely date of creation for the Lost Scrolls was the year 1 BE, if not the Year 0 (aka 0 AE).

“What if the scrolls contained dragon magic? Something created by the dragons or their minions to prepare for their reawakening. A spell that sinks a continent and turns all the people there into undead would be a perfect for Zhaitan.”

Minions – and especially champions – of the dragon wouldn’t need artifacts to use their or their masters’ power. Drakkar didn’t need an artifact to corrupt Svanir into the Nornbear; the Great Destroyer didn’t need an artifact to create an army of destroyers; Glint didn’t need an artifact even after being freed to make those Crystal Spiders and Crystal Guardians.

Kulvar, it seems you’ve completely misunderstood my entire point.

I never denied that Wintersday is the new year. I never denied the existence of seasons. In fact, I’ve been arguing the fact that such are both true as my main points.

My point was that the Mouvelian Calendar’s first day – aka Wintersday – is the Spring Equinox. See the wiki’s entry for Mouvelian calendar. Zephyr 01 is the first day of Spring, which in turn is the Tyrian New Year; but we experience Wintersday when we experience Christmas and our New Years, which is not even a month into winter.

In other words: the Gregorian New Year and the Mouvelian New Year happen two and a half months apart from each other when considering the seasons’ beginnings and endings, and this was what your OP completely overlooked – as do most community folks.

This means that the syncing of the calendar is an even bigger mess. And trying to link January 1st with Zephyr 01 doesn’t work because a confirmed to be autumn (aka Season of the Scion) holiday is then placed into winter (aka Season of the Colossus).

(Disclaimer: I refer to Earth’s northern hemisphere for seasons’ beginning and endings for the Gregorian calendar)

About snow, I was saying is that:

1. We only see confirmed natural snow in high elevations; e.g., mountains like the Shiverpeaks
2. We see magical snow elsewhere (confirmed for GW2 cities during Wintersday, and Kamadan in GW1; highly implied for LA, Tombs, and Ascalon for GW1 but human legend and reality is a bit muddled in those areas).

I was not denying the existence of seasons – I don’t know where you got that, since I only ever said snow when talking about that.

Surbrus.6942:

Agroman.7190:

Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Charr society

This is not true. GW and GW2 are full of mages everywhere. Pyre’s warband in GW1 was largely mages. Every class besides Warrior and Engineer are magic users in GW2 (if you count Signets and Alchemy, then Warrior and Engineer would also be magic users to an extent). Every second Iron Legion NPC you see uses Guardian magic, and half the Ash Legion NPCs use Necromancer magic.

In fact I see a lot more nameless Charr NPC’s using magic than I see nameless non-Charr NPC’s using magic. It would probably be more realistic to say that “Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Krytan society”, as the magic users there seem to all be in the ruling elite (the few consist of the Queen and leader of the Shining Blade, the leader of the Seraph is the only Guardian I’ve seen in the Seraph, etc).

Magic users are uncommon in modern charr society due to the Flame Legion – which was comprised of most magic users in GW1 – and the distrust that magic has been given since the Flame Legion were overthrown. Talking about GW1’s time is pointless, since it was before the disdain of magic and magic users.

In modern charr society, a lot of magic users are viewed with disdain, and because of this often get recruited into the Flame Legion.

You’ll rarely see a non-necromancer/guardian/thief that isn’t Flame Legion. Even then, most charr are engineers and warriors. The only cases of mesmers in modern charr society I can recall is a couple heart NPCs, such as the Ash Legion guy in south-central Diessa that disguises you as Flame Legion/Separatist with an illusion (seemingly at least).

Lore-wise, magic is prevailent everywhere, as in an interview it was said that everyone can use magic to some degree. Mechanically, your generic NPCs are copied repeatedly time and time again, so naturally if a generic NPC was made into a spellcaster, then all copies of it would be too – however, I don’t think this holds much merit to show the actual proportions. Most Iron Legion, in lore, are engineers – not guardians.

Technically speaking, souls go to the Mists. Within the Mists exist the god realms, so that is one of the likely locations they – particularly souls of those faithful to the Six – end up.

There were two charr in the Realm of Torment; tengu are said to end up in the “Sky Above the Sky” and dwarves in the “Great Forge” – we have no indications whether this is true, or where other races end up. Norn tie Raven to the Underworld, so they may end up in a part of the Underworld.

To the last question, I’m not sure what you’re asking.

As far as we know, dragons are not natural creatures, but corrupted non-dragon’s shifted into a new form akin to Mouth of Zhaitan and other bizarre minions.

There are hints, via Glint, Cantha, and the Bone Dragons, but nothing truly substantial.

So the likelihood of dragon whelps existing? None given stated lore. But it is not impossible. Not something that I would RP, however, as lore exists for what (almost all) miniatures are: magical toys. Only exception I can think of is the Black Moa Chick from gw1, which was an actual animal. The spring animal babies may be the same.

As to the idea of reanimated dragon bones, also unlikely if not impossible, especially for that size as even our best hint at a dragon baby (Glint’s ‘child’ which may or may not have been merely a dragon-shaped made dragon minion) is bloody huge (about as tall as a norn from forehead to ground when on all fours, if memory serves me right).

But it could be a dragon-shaped necromancer minions ala how the Bone Fiend is devourer-shaped. I’ve seen someone do that, and I’ve used a mini Orrian Chick as such.

• But the game does change cities (especially Lion’s Arch) for Winter, so why would it not show natural snow, when they very well could?
• I don’t recall the books depicting snow outside of the Shiverpeaks, nor could I find such. Seasons, yes I noted, climates for sure, but I did not see nor recall any mention of winter – please point that out to me.
• Mad King’s Day is in Autumn, as proven in the GW1 quest The Waiting Game

“Though Mad King Thorn has the ability to appear in this world each autumn, his power over the mortal realm is limited.”

The poems that are written when the updates for Halloween come about also hint to Mad King’s Day being the end or near the end of the season, too, interestingly enough (though this only makes syncing the calendars a bigger mess).

Smooth Penguin.5294:

"E"von Gnashblade says hello.

Why would a charr care about the politics of Divinity’s Reach?

To use your joke:
"E"llen Kiel says hello.
Prince "E"dair says hello.
"E"vennia says hello.

Then there’s Lord Faren, who’s far far more interested in human politics than some Ash Legion charr, has a good chance of being E. Livia as well, to be honest – perhaps E stands for Exemplar?

Palador.2170:

Well, as long as we’re throwing out ideas…

What if it’s … us?

We (the character) are the First Commander of the Pact. We’ve been a hero even longer than that. We’ve been standing at ground zero for more insane kitten and massive magics than anyone in living Tyrian history. That has to change a person. And it must have. All versions of “us”, even the sylvari ones, just shrug off the vision that shattered Scarlet’s mind.

It’s possible that we’re moving events without even realizing it by this point. Somewhere in the back of our minds we see the patterns, and make adjustments with little changes to the world around us. A letter here, an encounter with an unseen person there.

Who is " Mr. E " ?
ME

So, the PC has split personality that gives them – regardless of their race – and in-depth understanding of human politics, and writes ourselves letters to put into the mail?

Yeah… that doesn’t really match the quality of writing we’ve seen. Not really sure how they’d pull such off anyways, and I’m not sure it’d even make sense.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fortunately there’s another Horrorween event this month, on Aurora Glade. Still going strong after all these years!

kitten you Europeans…

NA’ers can’t guest over.

Tanith.5264:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an event to top the Mursaat Rally. That one was killer…

As someone who ran three successive MantleCons (spiritual successors of the Mursaat Rally), I am sad to hear this.

But I suppose you can’t top Anet trolling your event with an invasion of mursaat in a location you can’t use skills.

Kulvar.1239:

1st Zephyr = 1st January.
Since Wintersday is around december. But it’s true that it means that GW2 seasons begin 80 days earlier than IRL.

Says who?

The community. Because they’re going the lazy route and don’t realize that this puts Halloween, a Fall holiday, in Winter.

Meaning that if the calendar syncing is to make any sense at all, then Zephyr 01 CANNOT be January 1st.

To put it in your original phrasing:

The lazy way – January 1st

The logical way – March 20th/21st (changes based on Gregorian calendar placement of Spring Equinox, alters in-lore via the battle between Grenth and Dwayna)

The practical way – March 20th (always)

Kulvar.1239:

There’s snow in the Shiverpeaks, but the fact that we don’t see real snow during winter is only gameplay. GW2 game don’t include season and meteorological management.
In the books there clearly seasons.

There are seasons, but no real snow during Winter. During the previous two Wintersday, we do see snow in the cities – all six of them – and sparecly outside. This snow, however, is not natural. They’re made by asuran devices, to create patches of snow. This is fake snow is the source of our snowballs and snowmen for the achievements. Next time Wintersday comes around, find a patch of snow, and look up.

Kulvar.1239:

Since gods left Tyria 1327 years ago and seasons keep going, the fight between Grenth and Dwayna is only a Human myth.

“Myth” indicates falseness – that it didn’t happen. It did happen, ergo it is not myth, but legend, folklore, and, more accurately, history.

There’s more issues than that.

They don’t tell us what day of the Gregorian calendar matches Zephyr 01. Logically, Zephyr 01 should be on March 20th – reason being is that implications place Tyria in the northern hemisphere, and the Mouvelian calendar is known to begin on the Spring Equinox – March 20th for the Gregorian calendar+northern hemisphere.

Just trying Zephyr 01 to January 1st means that, as you pointed out, October is in Colossus – aka Winter. But we have pre-existing and long-standing in-game lore that outright tell us that Halloween is a Fall celebration. How can Halloween and the Autumn Lunatic be celebrated in the beginning of winter? This issue comes about from the fact that our New Year and Christmas is celebrated when snow is fresh, and Wintersday was introduced to us players at that same time before the calendar syncing was even a glint in the developers’ mind (or so all indication goes), and this tradition was brought into GW2, before any calendar syncing was made aware or prevalent in the game.

Then there’s the issue you only hinted to: Leap Year. The Mouvelian calendar doesn’t have this, and the “myth” (as you put it; no evidence to it being a myth, btw – in fact, we have direct mention of there being magical alteration of the seasons and even in GW2, we don’t see natural snow during the winter) of the gods altering the seasons doesn’t have to do with adding additional days to the year, but rather that the cold of winter lasts longer – the seasons themselves don’t seem to change, it’s rather all about determining whether snow exists longer or not.

The White Mantle aren’t an isolated group – they have remained integrated in modern Krytan society quite well, and recruit street gangs and people who are put down by the Krytan nobility (some of whom are White Mantle/White Mantle supporters) into their Bandit front.

While there easily could be people of “old Krytan appearance”, the White Mantle would not even be close to being solely limited to such, as there’d no doubt be recruitment into the various refugees into the banditry, and other forms of intermingling. Caudecus, highly suspect to be a high ranking White Mantle member, is as white as you can get, for example.

Druids no longer exist in human form, so they’d be irrelevant to the discussion.

Messenger.7450:

My personal question:

I’ve got a pre-NPE Necro who reached level 80 before the Feature Pack patch but who’s just started the Claw Island chapter. How will the PS work for him when he reaches the Greatest Fear?

You’ll get the current set-up. It’s when you hit the chapter 7 PS storyarc, not when you hit the level.

I.e., you needed to have “Forging the Pact” either completed or the step you’re on before the Feature Patch.

Messenger.7450:

I’m holding back on both my Necro and 2nd toon on the hope that they fix the PS soon. I currently don’t want my Necro to do the PS on the chance he ends up with the butchered no-Greatest Fear version of the PS. I want Tonn to be part of his story.

I suggest going no further than A Light in the Darkness – I’m not taking any character to complete that story step, as that’s when you pick your fear and I don’t want to pick one just for it to not register. It likely will register, but I’m playing it safe.

If you’ve completed A Light in the Darkness, then *DO NOT complete Retribution* if you want to experience the storyline in any future fixed path.

Though we don’t really know if the fear path will ever return.

Gill Halendt.2038:

Why we can’t have any indication about this issue is really beyond me. Even just knowing that the messed up, shortened story is here to stay as it is would help, at least we could move on and be done with it.

Or we can properly protest about it. Rather than going “when will it be fixed” “is it going to be fixed” we’d have a clear stance to make, rather than just throwing questions that may never get answered.

Though it’s pretty clear at least a good number of players want it returned to the original format.

Odyssey.2613:

• Rurik was an oblivious rich boy.
• Togo was an annoying creepy do-gooder.
• Mhenlo was world scholar snob that was doing you a “favor”.

Rurik was not oblivious. If anyone in Ascalon’s leadership was oblivious, it was Adelbern who – unlike Rurik- did not realize they were fighting a losing battle. Rurik tried to be optimistic while remaining realistic, which is a good leadership quality to have (recognize defeat to save lives, but keep a positive outlook (“we can survive in Kryta!”) to keep morale high). And his status really didn’t alter his personality anymore than just him being a leader figure – he could have been a commoner that was a captain in the army, and this wouldn’t affect much of his story. Tahlkora is far more of a “oblivious rich boy” than Rurik will ever be – as was Lo Sha from Factions (though his story focus was beyond minimal).

What you say for Togo and Mhenlo I don’t see, so you’ll either have to point it out to me or I’ll just label it as subjective opinion.

You’re making statements, but in your “I won’t put 10 paragraphs up” you completely neglect to point out why your statements hold weight. As it seems to me, you’re just bashing for the sake of bashing – which is what the Kormir video you posted, which is beyond inaccurate for the sake of a bad joke as Tobias said, does.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kormir’s problem, especially later, was how she was coded to be an ally without necessarily being in the party. Hence she didn’t attack and wasn’t attacked, which was a rather significant problem in earlier campaigns. Then they fixed the structure in EOTN where they would auto-revive and not immediately fail missions, without going back and throwing that into the earlier campaigns.

Her problem was she was coded to behave like a useless twit. And so . . . people latch on to that.

You forgot that she bodyblocked players – which was especially annoying in the final mission, where you have a thin path to get to Abaddon’s vulnerable point with a limited time to both do damage and get away from taking damage.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Trahearne’s problem is the story doesn’t help his case at all, and then moves too fast to really properly develop him. And the fact he’s not played by a person means he has the same problems as almost any NPC ally in awareness and targeting.

Points to the underline. A major problem with the entire GW2 story – personal story, and Season 2 (arguably Season 1 too, but at the same time there were points that were drawn out which were hated much more than the rushing feeling of plots).

A major issue that the main story of GW2 has is pacing. Some elements are passed by way too fast, without any proper development to them (such as all the deaths in Chapter 7 and 8 – ORIGINAL chapter 7 and 8 – of the PS; leading players to feel a “why should I care about NPCs?” feeling; this came about again with Belinda, who was so poorly developed before her death that it was painfully obvious she was meant to die from the second time of three we met her), and then others – like Scarlet’s only-able-to-get-away-with-things-because-of-idiot-ball plot concept – was drawn out too long.

Thobek.1730:

don’t be sorry, I know there is a lot wrong with the story but this just one thing that really annoys me. And instead of attacking how bad the other characters are I thought it best to focus on bringing a new likable male lead.

You’re going to have to explain to me how “no strong male lead harms the story” – as that’s what you’re basically saying – does not sound sexist at all. Or how it’s true.

I’m pretty sure that’s what Tobias meant by feeling sorry for you, though I can easily be wrong there, so I’ll just be blunt about it with what I mean.

A really tall mini that most people overlook is the Halloween Mini Skeleton. It’s pretty dang tall. It goes up to the waist of my average height human male, iirc.

The face is likely that of the Pale Tree being shown in her branches. ArenaNet likes to do such symbolism a lot, and it would fit the earliest depictions of how she talks (the wind through the leaves forming her voice).

The “snow” scene to me seems to depict the leaving of the Grove as it’s rather akin to the western edge of the upper-most portion of the Grove.

The “Layer of Vines” are definitely Mordremoth’s corruption and not necessarily the beginning of Season 2.

As for the Pale Tree going through seasonal cycles – likely just as much as the rest of Tyria does. But that’d mean that as full years pass during Season 1, she’d be going through all four seasons and not just one during then. If she appears to be going through fall now, it’d likely be due to her being unconscious, more than any time of year it is now.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, well, what can you do. I’m sure you read every single word of every single post. I said it was my bad. If that’s not good enough for you, it’s largely irrelevant.

Because it was information I was unfamiliar with, my brain didn’t make that association.

As I said, I agree with what the OP is trying to say, but I don’t like the way he said it. Which is fine. It wasn’t obviously meant to be a serious treatise on world peace.

I was merely pointing out that knowledge of Harry Potter was, from the start, irrelevant to understanding the OP, and that claiming a lack of that said knowledge is overall irrelevant to the claim of not understanding the OP. I did catch later that you went “my bad” effectively, but I tend to respond to posts as I go.

And I tend to read the full of a post I respond to. Or at least try to.

In the end, the important part is that we all agree that the issue is the issue, regardless of the rest.

Wanze.8410:

You already mentioned that a whole topic exists on the chopped up storyline so why open up another topic?

Draws more attention to the issue at hand.

Basically, the more kittening there is about it, the more likely it’ll get changed so the kittening stops.

Like with Pluto now being considered a planet again.

It’s likely not the best way to go about it, but by drawing more attention to it then you’ll have more voices to add.

If the OP named this “Why Chapter 7 and 8 shouldn’t have been altered” then those who don’t care about the PS wouldn’t necessarily look. But those interested in the NPE in general will with a title that mentions the NPE. And the chapter rearrangement is part of the NPE so it isn’t completely irrelevant.

I think you can throw them away. Most people have.

If ArenaNet brings about a use for them again, they’ll give them out again, no doubt.

A recent thought I had about story and character interaction is that I think there’s too much focus on the characters in GW2.

Look at GW1, how much effort was put into focus on the individual characters? Very little, overall. And just about none in the main storyline – there was some, like the revelation of Tahlkora’s family, or Dunkoro’s son, or the fighting between Gwen and Pyre. But most of it, especially with Nightfall, happened in side-quests. Just about all of it with Devona and co. happened in side-quests in Prophecies. Yet despite how little focus there was in the main story, people loved Koss and Jurah and Jora and the others.

Which comes to a second fallacy I see in GW2: the lack of side quests that tie into the main story characters. Yes, you have invasion into Orr, you have the dungeons that focus on DE (which weren’t done poorly, narratively speaking), but you have no such side-quests that involve Trahearne, nor the mentors, nor Tonn, nor Apatia, nor the biconics.

I am feeling that the lack of a story-driven side-quest system is hindering GW2 a bit. It is just one of many things that GW1 had that GW2 doesn’t.

There’s already been a beginning implimentation of this. There are a few dynamic events in the open world that trigger by the personal story – either its progress or part of the PS itself. Making events like this to help further the characters narrative, rather than cramming it all into the main plot making it feel like there’s bits of irrelevancy, feels much more proper.

Looking back at the first page of posts, my responses remain unchanged interestingly. Actually, not surprising, given the lack of new lore on the non-playable races since then. Choices being:

1. Tengu
2. Largos
3. Kodan

And I still see Kodan as being unlikely due to the customization limitations of a polar bear race (all fur must be white). Though there could be means of bypassing this.

Any of the five racial symapthy races (quaggan, skritt, grawl, ogre, hylek) are highly unlikely to occur simply due to the design of the game.

Any non-humanoid race (centaur, krait, naga, etc.) are unlikely due to armor appearance capability issues (tengu can easy share with charr, kodan with norn, largos with human/sylvari).

Any “pure-black” race (mursaat, krait, centaur, etc.) are beyond unlikely due to the lore and story, though work-arounds can be added, if such occurs hopefully it’ll be done well. Similarly, this goes for the ancient races (Seers, dwarves, mursaat, Forgotten, jotun); due to their lore, in that they’re all extinct/near extinction, it’s unlikely to see them playable.

However, I do have an additional suggestion I don’t think anyone mentioned:

Wardens

They’ve been my favorite Cantha race/group for a long while, and their lore is already interesting with appearance elements that set them similar to but still different from the current playable races. If we go to Cantha, they and naga are the most likely of non-humanoid races that survived simply due to the difficulty of exterminating them (the Echovald Forest has a history of slowing an preventing invaders, while the naga could retreat to the depths of the nearby waters).

Alga.6498:

Some sort of an Elf race, High-Elf prob. I would LOVE to have Elven characters… ohh my god.. Best race ever!

ArenaNet’s outright stated that they created the sylvari to avoid having an elf race archtype. When they originally designed the sylvari race, they were much more humanoid and with pointed ears. They were redesigned to be more like human-looking plants rather than plant-looking humans.

But yeah, you’ll never get an elf race. Sylvari’s the best you’ll get.

Though humans are meant to fill the role elves usually do (the wizened race).

Squee.7829:

Didn’t Taimi see a vision also?

No, you pull her out before such could happen.

CureForLiving.5360:

Examples of these black holes in lore perhaps?

It’s not an issue – currently – as the OP makes it out to be, but because of these things, there’s almost no reference to the potential PC individuals for early PS storylines you don’t do, and similarly you get zero references to our GW1 PC.

In the future, this will become a bigger issue, with the need to draw back to whomever it was that did all this awesome stuff, or they can just avoid a need to draw back to it like they’ve done with GW1.

CureForLiving.5360:

I purchased 1000 of them the other day… my clicking finger still hasn’t fully recovered…

Yeah, when I bought enough to craft all Beaded weapons, I had to switch fingers a few times to prevent them from hurting.

Please add a buy in bulk. 10 like Obsidian Shards and Icy Runestones would be more than fine. Before since it was only weapons, it didn’t matter. It should have been done with the wardrobe, but no big deal. Now there’s also an achievement tied to the weapons, so big deal.

I don’t mind the grouping. I would prefer the first chapter to be unlocked sooner, however, and I wish they didn’t mess with the step order of chapters 7 and 8.

I would have preferred chapter 1 unlocking at level 5. Yes, getting to level 10 isn’t that hard – but in all honesty, I rather feel that it’s too easy, and it was made that way simply because of the placement of skill unlocks. I ran through on a new character and the new directional system makes it feels like all there is to do is mapping in a zone, and this feeling was enforced by how fast I leveled, because I’d rarely hit an event (or the directional system would highlight mapping over events).

All in all, I don’t think that the new level unlock system is all that bad. It gives a sense of time having passed between the chapters, which I felt had seriously lacked in the original format. Now you’re no longer going from Novice→Explorer→Magister (or the Vigil/Whisper equivalents) in 2 hours, but you have to put in effort to do things between each promotion.

What I find bad is the speed of leveling, the skill unlock system, and the directional system (why is there no “events only” option!?).

Vayne.8563:

I wasn’t attacking you. I didn’t get it because I don’t know enough about Harry Potter to get it. My bad. Had you done it with Game of Thrones I’d have gotten in.

That said, Anet knows about it and they’re working on it.

Edit: Even I’ve said the end of the story has been pretty much destroyed.

This post makes it clear that you didn’t read the OP at all. To make a conscise point:

Chapter 3: Harry and Ron save Hermione.

Chapter 4: Harry meets Ron and Hermione.

The OP basically did this three times. One chapter Harry helps/saves XYZ; next chapter Harry meets/finds XYZ.

You don’t need to know about Harry Potter, since aside from names, it makes no reference to it. Switch out the names of anyone – even people from different stories – and you get the same scenario.

As to ArenaNet fixing the PS… I’m becoming doubtful. No word on such, and they’ve already implemented “fixes” stealthly. While the two-three people who went through it said no changes, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were minor changes that fixes the inconsistencies but keeps the story order, as I’ve heard that people who never played it before didn’t realize any story errors (such people likely didn’t pick the Priory’s plan during Further into Orr and apparently didn’t pay attention to how they kill an Eye then are introduced to the Eyes – but if Anet fixed the dialogue after the 9/30 update, but not the story order, then naturally they wouldn’t notice these things).

The Elder Dragons have shown that they are not merely “simple-minded” but rather sapient, potentially very intelligent, but also simply uncaring beings. Though ArenaNet will never outright say such, they’ve given plenty of hints that point to the Elder Dragons each having unique personalities, tactics, and motivations – though their goal is, in a general sense, the same (consume the world), they go about it differently with different motivations.

Entering complete hypothesizing, the whole cyclic nature of the Elder Dragon seems to be a case of insufficient food for the number of predators in the area, so they hibernate to let said food regrow. In this case, there isn’t enough magic in the world to allow six (potentially seven or more) Elder Dragons roaming about the world of Tyria.

Words from Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows give heavy implications as to not just the nature of Zhaitan, but the world itself. “This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and of Orr. The day of their ultimate victory is close.” (page 426).

This single line points to two things: 1) That Zhaitan intends to reign, 2) That the land is “alive.”

Both are supported elsewhere. For example with the latter, we have the Pale Tree saying: “The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered. " (A Light in the Darkness) And an example of the former, there are a multitude of risen that point to two things about Zhaitan: 1) he intends to reign, 2) he and his minions offer reunion with loved ones/immortality via undeath. Some choice lines for both aside from Whiting’s above:

“You’ll join me in the service of the dragon, and we will again fight as one. We will serve Zhaitan forever.” – Sea of Sorrows, page 422, Bronn to his brother Grymm.
“The world will be reborn by the dragon’s will. Death is the beginning!” – Sea of Sorrows, page 423, again Bronn to his brother Grymm
“The Mists are filled with lies. Zhaitan is our only chance at immortality. Serve him!” – Cathedral of Silence story step, Risen Keeper of the Shrine
“My old master mocked my power. But Zhaitan gave me more!” – Kill the Kitah Conjurer dynamic event, Malchor’s Leap, Risen Kitah Conjurer
“Zhaitan’s chosen…never truly die…” – Kill the Kitah Conjurer dynamic event, Malchor’s Leap, Risen Kitah Conjurer
“I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named…<Mentor>. She/He is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon’s wings… All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again. " – The Source of Orr story step, Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan
“Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are — and you must die!” – The Source of Orr story step, Soverieng Eye of Zhaitan; the interesting bit is how the Sovereign Eye presents removing Zhaitan’s corruption as “poisoners”.

The issue with quoting Risen come for how they love to use lies to demoralize their foes, but there’s a heavy theme with individuals speaking of Zhaitan as a kind of savior from death and loneliness.

There are more for other dragons – particularly Jormag since we see the most of his minions aside from Zhaitan’s. Each minion speaks of shared traits to their dragon, and these traits differ from dragon to dragon.

So they do come off as more than merely “simple-minded” or even the direct statements of ArenaNet’s ’they’re little more than apex predators’. And while we know of all the Elder Dragons – more or less – we don’t know much about them, how they work, etc. And no one’s really said we’ll be killing all six in the end. I can easily see Primordus and the DSD remaining as present-in-the-background enemies (presuming that the game lasts that long, given the current rate of storytelling… At this rate, we’ll be in 2017 by the time we’re going after the third dragon).

@Purecura: Not everyone has the same capabilities in magic though, it all differs based on teaching. So with NPCs, we can only judge based on what we see.

And we don’t see Jennah attacking with magic.

Jennah may be one of the most powerful mesmers known, but that doesn’t mean that she has amongst the most versatile of capabilities either.

@Genlog: NPCs are capable of doing things that PCs cannot. This would include Jennah’s bubble skill, which the closest in immitation we players get, in regards to mesmer skills, would be Chaos Armor (same animation); though in functionality, it’s closer to Fire Shield.

That’s not really a “female raven form” concept art, but rather a raven-themed female norn, or mid-tranformation. It isn’t very clear what it’s meant to be, and we only see it titled as “Raven”. Given that it looks like a standard female norn (Kekai’s style of norn at least), I doubt it’d be a completed raven form.

That would be publicity, then. People talk about it, garnering attention and curiosity.

I had thought as much, but didn’t want to put words in others’ mouths.

draxynnic.3719:

Which actually links back to the original topic somewhat – whether accurate or not, the impression of a lot of people is that GW2 is in the ‘dwindling’ phase. An expansion may represent the proverbial shot in the arm that builds it back up, which the LS really doesn’t seem to be doing. People can say that the LS represents the same amount of content as an expansion (I’m… sceptical) but it just doesn’t have the same ability to build hype.

That’s more or less what I said in my first post in this thread.

One of the biggest issues that an expansion would solve that the Living World cannot is publicity – garnering public view, changing public opinion, etc.

Even if it delivers the same amount of content as an expansion, it will never be viewed the same by the playerbase, and it’s that view – the publicity, the popularity, the word-of-mouth, or whatever term or phrase you wish to slap upon it – that is important to have.

All ancient records that exist and number the Elder Dragons say six. There are hints from devs in interviews that there could be a seventh – tied to Kuunavang (or rather, that Kuunavang is tied to) – but there’s nothing really concrete on that.

Jotun creation myths point to six Elder Dragons rising multiple times, meaning that over a multitude of rising, the jotun or whomever they researched only knew of six Elder Dragons at any one point. One could argue that this is due to the knowledge being limited to continental Tyria, however it should be noted that two of the six Elder Dragons did not wake up in continental Tyria (Jormag and the DSD), and only three of them have any mention in continental Tyrian history beyond their name and existence (Kralkatorrik, Primordus, Jormag – and Jormag is only via a single sword which could have easily been brought to Tyria, and his champion Drakkar); this indicates that Zhaitan and Mordremoth came to continental Tyria in the later times of the previous dragonrise (EoD’s term for the Elder Dragons’ awakening not used elsewhere) – doubly so since Zhaitan’s place of rest was where Glaust was freed, a location required for geological magic per Angel McCoy, indicating that Zhaitan wasn’t always there during the previous dragonrise – and Jormag’s influence on continental Tyria even in the end was limited.

So it’s possible that the six we know of are merely “those that have ever influenced continental Tyria and the races there” but that’s rather unlikely given all other indications we are given and see.

Sounds almost like what Fractals tried to be – what it was said it was going to be, but without (if hope) the artificial ‘difficulty’ increase (Agony).

And very similar to the GW1 challenge missions except said challenge missions had a single difficulty (two if including the game-wide Hard Mode) and always restarted from the beginning on failure, but eternally progressed in higher difficulty.

I’d enjoy a return of the challenge missions concept so long as the reward is adequate, which the gw1 setup lacked.

If you refer to the Opening Ceremony, I don’t recall her doing anything, but I wasn’t focusing on her and it was once per account. She wasn’t even present for the Closing Ceremony.

So then that would have been after the patch – it wouldn’t matter when you completed Forging the Pact, just when you got it showing in that top-right corner (nor would it matter when you completed following portions of the chapter).

Tachenon.5270:

My NPE ele’s personal story Chapter 7 ‘Forming the Pact’ (so far):

Forging the Pact
The Battle of Fort Trinity
Against the Corruption
Cathedral of Silence
The Source of Orr

Did you hit have Forging the Pact unlocked before or after the 9/30 update?

If it was before, then you’d have the Feature Batch version regardless, but if it was after the update, then they didn’t change it.

Thia.4891:

Any word on whether characters that started the PS pre-patch have corrected PSs? Is the story still broken for NPE characters?

It will remain unchanged for characters who hit chapter 7 (completed Retribution and hit level 70), even if they fix it. Similar to how those who had hit chapter 7 before the feature batch had the original layout.

The question we’re trying to figure out is whether or not it’s been changed for those who didn’t hit chapter 7 before the 9/30 update.

I wouldn’t call it “juvenile” but rather, it has a case of “making amateur mistakes periodically.”

The lack of the two-person cinematics does improve its quality, to a degree. The lack of PC talking doesn’t help but doesn’t downright hinder.

Regarding speed and pacing, I disagree. I think it’s going too fast. Or rather, it’s spending too little time on each element, trying to cram so many things in such little time without properly, which is giving it the “checklist” feeling that some people have mentioned – that the entire storyline was based off of a list of things to cover, some of them being cleanup duty for Season 1, and the writers don’t flesh out said list properly before moving on. For example:

• What was the purpose of finding Scarlet’s lair, except to elaborate on her history that was overlooked in Season 1, and to push us on to the ley line hub (which could have been discovered in other means)?
• There was no development of Belinda before she died.
• Each of the race’s side plots except Taimi/Asura got adequate attention to them, with half of charr and all of norn being subjugated to pre-existing open world events (albeit updated slightly).
• Mordremoth’s name and the Mordrem term come out of nowhere in the story.
• We’re never given a real, proper, reason for why we need to have a world summit, when we have the Pact (which is not once brought up in discussing Mordremoth until said world summit), leaving the entire E3 and E4 feeling like the purpose was just to render the Pale Tree unconscious and make sylvari vulnerable to Mordremoth.

Season 2 has been covering a lot of ground, but it isn’t covering it very much. It feels more like the writers are just saying “hey, these things still existokaynowbacktoMordremoth.”

You attribute to this to being “slow” but I attribute it to being too fast. They’re just passing by things without giving them the depth they need. Any slowness that’s caused is due to the continuous breaks.

And comparing GW2 to GW1 is very poor. Especially comparing to Beyond. Beyond was done by a minimalistic team, sure, but it almost never brought in new resources (WiK brought in a grand total of 2 costumes, 1 weapon set, and 1 new enemy model), and there was absolutely no voice acting in it. The Living World has a bunch of new models every update, a vast number of lines are voiced, and sometimes new maps too. Far more new things get made for the Living World than Beyond, so naturally Beyond would be at a faster pacing as it reused old models.

I agree with introducing it in larger portions. Winds of Change was done right, and except for the repetative nature of cleansing out the Afflicted, I don’t recall a single complaint about it (mind you, a lot of the praise that Beyond got was due to the fact that GW players went two years without any substantial content, and it’s pretty clear that Beyond – War in Kryta specifically – was a prototype for the Living World, though there’s a lot of things that GW1 and Beyond had that GW2 and the Living World cannot which made Beyond such a larger success – such as instances, which allowed players to experience the new changes at their own pace, rather than at ArenaNet’s pace), and WoC should be the model that ArenaNet follows rather than WiK. Even Hearts of the North was released in two large pieces, rather than a continuous flow – right away after War in Kryta, John Stumme (he took over after WiK as the lead of GW1’s Live Team) realized that large chunks is better than continuous flows, so why hasn’t GW2’s team picked up on this?

And for that matter, why isn’t John Stumme on the writing team when “his” story for Winds of Change was so well received? (Note: I say “his” story because he was the lead writer; naturally, the entire Live Team wrote the story – the attribution is akin to a movie director getting attribution for a movie’s story and success, so I mean no offense to the others who worked on Winds of Change’s creation).

Cure, you realize you just said “Dark Soul’s popularity is also attributed partially to the popularity itself” right?

>.>

“The sun’s brightness is attributed partially to the brightness.”

There’s three wings: Wings of the Sunless from Tequatl Rising, and the two holographic wings. The Holographic Dragon Wing Cover can be obtained from Sonder the Seller still, though the only way to get Zhaitaffy for it is via the TP. However, the Holographic Shattered Wing Cover is not available at all, despite the fact it was an achievement reward – similarly, the Winds of the Sunless is unobtainable now, despite the fact it was an achievement reward. Reason I say “despite” is because ArenaNet said during Festival of the Four Winds’ preview that any achievement skin would become available again, and what’s available at the laurel merchant is what became available from the vendors during the Festival of the Four Winds.

Grenth’s Regalia
Lunatic Court Finery
Vale Wraith
Formal Attire (not very Wintersday or Halloweenish but can pass for Wintersday)
Pumpkin Crown (or any variation thereof)
Zombie Face Paint (to go with the necro starter skull, demon, and wraith ones)
Candy Cane weapons (why haven’t they shown up yet, anyways?)
Dread Mask Because yeah, I want it in GW2.

And just because it’d be funny to see how it’s implemented, Charr Hat

She probably never really learned any offensive spells for a few reasons. One being that she’s always accompanied by Shining Blade – and almost always with Anise, who’s also a very powerful mesmer. The other being that it could be viewed as “unsightly” for a person of such fine upbringing to attack others (such mentality seldom thinks about self-defense though). Under such, it isn’t too hard to believe that Jennah was only taught to use defensive spells – like paralyzing large groups of people (EoD) or creating an impenetrable bubble (Caudecus’ Manor + The World Summit) or illusionary copies of herself (Kellach’s Attack + Closing Ceremony) – though arguably the last one could have been Anise’s doing.

The line in Edge of Destiny could be taken either way, in all honesty, but to me sounds to be implying something closer to what Squee said.

“Three hundred years ago, I welcomed heroes such as yourselves, hailing them as the Chosen who would destroy the titans and save the world. But did they remember? Did not the very heroes that I sent return to battle me again? And now _you come to slay me?"_

Glint makes it clear that the heroes of Prophecies “returned to battle [her] again”, indicating that: 1) she isn’t talking about the first meeting she had with the heroes of Prophecies and 2) a second fight took place. Implying that the bonus did happen, perhaps as a failure (the whole cinematic if your party wipes and all, is likely the canon), but that the heroes returned later on.

And she gives a hint of context to this second confrontation later on:

“But three hundred years ago , the dragons’ bellies were empty, and their minds were awakening. Three hundred years ago, the sons of men fought me before they understood that I was their ally.”

It seems to me that one of the cut intended storylines for Beyond was to involve our PCs learning about the Elder Dragons, and Glint’s connection to them, and going to confront her about it thinking she’s been playing them the fool the whole time or some such.

If so, it’s a real shame we didn’t get a completion of Beyond.

There’s no hint that Glint killed the PCs – not without reviving them (the bonus for Dragon’s Lair) at least. But there’s hint that the PCs fought Glint a second time, after learning about the Elder Dragons and her ties to Kralkatorrik.

Minigrump.4961:

Nothing is forcing you to do it.

Except for the Living World story step.

So that’s something. Not nothing.

Solandri.9640:

I’ve always been curious what happens if you kill Jormag during the first phase.

It’d break, no doubt.

There’s quite a few events out there where you can kill the enemy before a script can trigger – the champion branded griffon in Fields of Ruin, the three risen Priory Explorers in Kitah Manse are two examples. If you do kill them before the scripts run, then an error in the coding occurs, and the content freezes, unable to continue because of missing NPCs.

So the Claw of Jormag event will remain uncompleted until either:

1. The timer runs out.
2. The map is destroyed.
3. The event’s forced to reset.

Depends on the coding, in order of what’s most likely to least likely to happen.