Guild Wars 2

Victory or Death now rewards a very similar reward. Utterly useless in every way for a level 80.

They’re pushing for alts, while making alts all the more boring to start, faster to level, but more tedious to use skills while leveling.

So if you don’t like making alts…. best trash it!

An ED does have a cult: Sons of Svanir.

One can argue that the Stone Summit were a cult for the Great Destroyer too.

Which just goes to show that the idea’s been done. But unlike the Sons of Svanir, it’s kind of hard to picture a cult focused around immortality through undeath (the biggest shared theme of risen). Especially with the Elder Dragon dead now.

CureForLiving.5360:

Based on the dialog in the screenshot I’d say him being an undead elder dragon instead of the Undead Elder Dragon is kinda looking more likely. At the very least it’s clear that he’s body is a composition of undead flesh (if it wasn’t clear just by looking at him).

I’d agree except for one major fact: ArenaNet has put a lot of effort into ensuring the concept of “NPCs don’t always know what they’re talking about” to hold true. While this doesn’t always hold true sadly (coughScarletBriarandTaimicough), unless it was first hand information or coming from an expert’s mouth, it usually was.

Luminaries never saw Zhaitan, so why would they know whether he is or isn’t? For all we know, they heard Trahearne and Caithe describing him, and go “clearly, he’s undead!” Or they just know he’s a master of the undead and thus think he must be as well in the same style that most players think such.

It’s been a possibility that he’s undead, but I am doubtful nonetheless. And if he is undead, then it is by no means related to his power – unless we want to start saying Jormag is made out of ice, Kralkatorrik out of crystal, and Primordus out of fire. And we know the last two are downright wrong – if we cannot say the same for Jormag as well, despite his fang.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the two cases we know of is Primordius (who is a rock dragon) and Kralkatorrik (who is a crystal dragon) kinda aren’t very good examples of what EDs look like when they sleep since both are rock / crystal whether they’re awake or asleep.

Primordus is fire, not rock.

And Kralkatorrik isn’t a crystal dragon. He is explicitly seen and stated to have flesh and scales and is known to bleed – though his blood does crystallize when it coagulates. Unless you want to say that this is crystal. There are better angles of him in GW1, which clearly show scales.

Kralkatorrik is not “a crystal dragon” – Glint is a crystal dragon – Kralkatorrik is the Elder Crystal Dragon. Difference.

CureForLiving.5360:

Perhaps we can call him Krally. Mmm doesn’t feel like good shorthand… Kralka? Torry?… ok I’ll think of something later maybe I’ll have something by the time the living story finally gets to him.

Some people shorten Kralkatorrik into “Kralky”. And I’ve seen Mordremoth shortened into Mordy.

But I’m sure you have three years before we get to him. That is if Kralkatorrik is the next dragon still.

anzenketh.3759:

The fact that the Studio Director states he will look into it tells me that it is a bug. The fact that the story itself is still in the game files tells me it is a trigger bug. I don’t see what you are seeing that supports a theory that it is not a bug.

That said if it is not a bug they will need to re-do the entire last two chapters to fix the plot holes. I really don’t want them too either. I hate recon.

Please read my previous post in this thread for more but these changes cannot possibly be a bug simply because new things were added. Objectives got rewritten. Even if this was meant for China only and not NA/EU, it would not include all the localizations would it? A bug does not create new text out of nothing. An accident does not alter to such huge extents.

You can argue chapter 7 being removed was a bug, I suppose, but not the changes to chapter 8, and the changes to chapter 7 and 8 were explicitly stated in the update notes.

Chapter 7 now deals with the cleansing of Orr.

Well, guess what, the fear storyline has nothing to do with the cleansing of Orr.

Let me ask you this: how does someone simply stating “I’ll get back to you on this” (he is NOT stating he’ll look into it, he’s NOT stating that he’ll check on what’s wrong, he’s NOT stating that he’ll confirm it’s a bug; he merely states that he will get back to you on it – which is about as vague as you can be) indicate that it is a bug?

Maybe he wants to check to get the writers’ or whomever made the change’s reasons to present it, not to get an ETA on when the “bug” will be fixed.

Maybe he wants to see if the negative feedback on it has made them change their minds.

There’s nothing here to indicate it’s not a bug, but everything to indicate it is one. Its existence in the update notes, the new objective text, dev posts pointing to said update notes. It’s there, plain as day, and not seeing it makes you delusional in my opinion.

Even as someone who has defended ArenaNet time and time again – though less so as of late – it’s obvious to me that this was not only a terrible move, but an intentional move. And as of late, they’ve been making more and more bad-to-terrible moves.

I did the week’s WvW achievement in 30 minutes. Felt no real need to continue doing that. So for the most part I’m playing other games or dailies if I’m up to it. Until Friday!

Malkavian.4516:

It probably wasn’t deliberate. Chris mentioned that the team is currently looking into this and would let us know on Monday

I think it was deliberate – they did nothing to other things that could possible have altered these to such a huge extent, and it was mentioned in the update notes, not to metion Jeffery Vaughn constantly explaining what happens for player play-throughs.

Kind of hits home the point that it was deliberate. It’s too huge of a thing, and too talked about by devs, to be an accidental change! The question is more of “was it deliberate only for China and got overlooked here, or was it deliberate across the board?” And if you ask me – given that they alter the object listings in English – it had to be deliberate across the board.

You don’t “accidentally” add in new scripts. A “bug” does not create unwritten text out of nowhere. They didn’t change any dialogue in the story steps, but they did alter the objectives.

This was deliberate, and those who continue to argue otherwise are just deluding themselves at this point. ArenaNet flubbed this one up.

In all honesty, it sounds to me that they’re just going “oh kitten” at all the constant negative feedback and are considering reverting it – or the “we’ll get back to you on Monday” is about trying to figure out the best way to explain why this change is for the best (aka brainstorming how to fix an uber PR disaster). Or – and I do pray that the case is the first (reverting it) – they’re working on ‘fixing’ the dialogue so that it clashes less (even if they made all the dialogue perfect, unless they go and completely alter the Blast from the Past story step, it still won’t work).

Half the dailies are static, a third are in a rotation of two or three, and the last bit are in a huuuuge rotation that repeats some options more than others.

Rather wish there were no “static” ones at all, but with so few things to do in PvP and WvW, what do you expect?

That’s hopeful.

The change does nothing to be affected by or to affect the NPE.

They become destroyed when you evolve the plants. You’d have to redo the story steps (maybe on a new character?) either way.

You have to start from the first seed.

There was no mention of buying Season 1 – that was about Season 2 episodes that were missed.

There is no ETA on when Season 1 will become permanent content. Anet has said they intend to do it, but at the same time it is a backburner project. So we may get it at the next feature batch. Or we may not get it for much longer.

You can bet that it won’t become playable before Season 2 ends though, I’m sure of it.

If you love good story and lore, you’re probably better off not playing Season 1. Because Season 1 was not lore or story friendly – half of this was due to it being a new and experimental format, hence why it needs to be transcribed into the Story Journal design (they tried other things and said things did not work, so they went back to PS-like stuff but improved). Most of the storyline is irrelevant to Season 2 – only the last four releases really were. All you really need to know is:

Frosch.7809:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

There is this event where you can avenge Tybalt…if not for the line that the Risen Commander is saying i’d say he is Risen Tybalt himself.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_the_Risen_commander_to_avenge_Tybalt

Edit: I totally misread your post.

Kain Francois.4328:

Bad. In fact, I think the Shining Blade would try to assassinate them.

Play the Personal Story, and you’ll see what I mean. The Arcane Eye is NOT a good organization, and don’t seem very much above the inquest. Come on, they kitten off even the Order of Whispers. Let that put into perspective a bit.

The Arcane Eye is not a “bad” organization though. If you paid attention to the Personal Story like I did, you’d know that they were doing nothing more than their orders from Flaxx, who’s out for asuran supremecy.

The Arcane Eye merely did what the Arcane Council told them. And Flaxx isn’t “bad” either – just supremely bias.

Also, thank you, but I’ve played every story path of the Personal Story sans the Ogre plot.

I don’t think that the asura gathering the magic that Primordus naturally exuded affected Primordus in any way, shape, or form imaginable.

It would be like people taking seeds out of poop to make coffee; the animal no longer uses it, so it doesn’t affect said animal in any way.

Not to say magic is Elder Dragon feces… I prefer to alliteration of “sweat” instead… but its the same kind of concept. Primordus exuded that magic – he was done with it – so taking it did not affect him.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ehhh, you do realize that that might mean you’d have to pay to fight the Elder Dragon, right? By all means, lets not make it too much like the bonus mission pack! Lets not give them any ideas!

No matter how many poor design decisions they’re making, their management – I hope – is not stupid enough to make the climax of the story a must-pay-for experience.

But then again, they did flub up the climax of the personal story just now.

If it isn’t some new design – like a squad-based raid instance – then it should be an explorable dungeon. NOT story mode. That’s one of the biggest issues I have with Arah – sure it may mean that we have to complete a story mode, but that could easily be a “clearing out the foothold of the dragon’s lair” kind of plot, while the explorable mode focuses on the Elder Dragon in a manner akin to original Twilight Arbor or Crucible of Eternity explorable (three/four paths to the same end fight that differs based on your path). In Arah, my biggest issue other than the fight with Zhaitan itself (and the nerf to uberpatheticville that it became) was that a minion from the previous rise (Giganticus Lupicus) is insanely more difficult than the Elder Dragon itself.

If you ask me, the story mode of Arah should have been to establish that foothold on Dragonblast Basilica (or w/e the name of the area you fight the Mouth of Zhaitan was). And the explorable mode is you fighting through a series of champions via one of three/four paths to the end outcome: Zhaitan, who’d be the strongest fight.

Yes, it’d enforce an explorable mode, which will indeed be tough, to be part of the main story and a requirement to complete said main story… but who cares? Not everything can be made easy mode for QQ’ing casuals.

But then again, I love games like Dark Souls.

adormtil.1605:

As for the possibility of just chipping away at a dragon until it’s gone, we saw in the Zhaitan fight that it had a pain response, or at least an equivalent reaction to damage. That being the case, anything that could hurt it should also be capable of awakening it.

I mean when they slept and were made of rock I doubt that then they could feel pain someone gave the example of the Azura and Primordius.

Elder Dragons aren’t made of rock. They’re covered by rock after a time. Because that’s just how dust, dirt, and soil works.

adormtil.1605:

^What about the Elder Dragon that has minions that are made of crystal? Is a complex and long name that I do not know why he was named like that but from what I understand he was also made of rock when he slept.

Kralkatorrik was mistaken for a mountain (range), but there were still charr who thought “that can’t be a mountain, it has scales.” Which was often dismissed as “they’re scale-like rocks.”

The mistakes were due to modern races not knowing about the Elder Dragons. It is NEVER said that they were actually made of rock – Kralkatorrik or other.

Asura are only known to have siphon magic from Primordus – and why would they start chipping away the “statue” that “practically bleeds magic”. They risk losing their gate network’s power source.

I really cannot see there being any sense of continuity if the Elder Dragon fights were open world.

However, I could see them introducing Squad-based raid instances in the future, especially with how many players bought a Commander tag before the change, and using such kinds of instances for fights like the Marionette/Prime Hologram/Tower of Nightmares being made a permanent dungeon/instance, or for future Elder Dragons.

Alternatively, I hope fighting Mordremoth will be more akin to Turai’s Story in GW1’s Bonus Mission Pack – you’re part of a small unit going straight for the head while the main army distracts the enemy. Mordremoth’s being hinted at literally being rooted to the ground so I wouldn’t expect a large aerial battle with him.

We were told that this break is a “mid-season” break.

But we do not know whether that means middle as in “dead center middle” (aka 50%), or if it means “between the beginning and the end” – which can mean anywhere between “we’re only 1% done” to “we’re 99% done”.

I am hoping that it is only 1/3rd complete, otherwise I do not see us beating Mordremoth in Season 2, and the outcome will be like if Season 1’s grand finale was Cutthroat Politics. However, going any longer than 12 episodes (or 16 depending on how it’s done) I feel will be stretching it out too long when we have the rather rushed storytelling we saw in the first four episodes (especially 3), which already felt like they’re marking off a checklist more than telling a proper story.

anzenketh.3759:

Why are you so intent on proving to me that it is not a bug and is intentional? Again the statement from Jeff stated nothing in regards to removing anything story related from the game.

Because everything points to it being intentional, and if so then ArenaNet needs to know that it was a bad move.

The storyline itself was removed. That’s a pretty kitten massive bug! If it was a bug, you can bet their kitten they would have given a confirmation of such and an ETA on when it’ll show up. They always do for the major bugs. Without exception.

The fact that they haven’t shows that it isn’t a bug. That it is “working as intended.”

CureForLiving.5360:

Well from what we know, newly awakened EDs are at there weakest (or at least at lowest magic levels).

This is only true because the Elder Dragons were seeping out magic for ~10,000 years.

It would not be true if they woke only 100 years after falling asleep – they’d still retain all the magic they consumed.

Plus, the idea of attacking the Elder Dragons in their sleep requires the knowledge of their location as well as the ability to actually harm Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that the elder races were in hiding for who-knows-how-long while the Elder Dragons ravaged the world and fell to sleep. There’s no reason to believe that the elder races knew of where they were, let alone had the manpower or firepower to risk waking them up when they’re still strong.

And if you ask why they didn’t thousands of years after they fell asleep – how many civilizations survived that long? In reality, only the dwarves really did, and they forgot about the Elder Dragons’ existence (arguably the Forgotten did too but at least half of their known population went into the Mists so they weren’t at top shape either; jotun had fallen and the seers were practically extinct while the mursaat weren’t in the world until shortly before they began posing as gods).

anzenketh.3759:

That is correct they are all vague. He did not say yes it is intentional not did he say it is a bug.

I am personally suspecting it is a bug as the game files for the quest are still in the game. If it was a intentional removal players would not be able to play the story.

Okham’s Razor

Them still being in the game files is outright (indirectly) explained:

They did not alter the story placement for those characters that were already in chapter 7 or chapter 8. To quote:

If you were on the storyline pre-patch, you’ll still be on it post-patch. (Thought it might not be visible until you reach L70, since it’s in Chapter 7.)

From this very thread.

In short: you will experience no loss of the greatest fear storyline if you have reached Forging the Pact. You will experience no reordering of Orr’s plot if you have reached Temple of the Forgotten God. If you had not reach them then you will experience the change. Ergo, the files must remain in the game. This was likely done to prevent confusion (lol) over those who are in the middle of said plots – or to prevent players from missing/repeating story steps if they’re in the middle of chapter 8.

I have noted that the descriptions of Forging the Pact and The Battle of Fort Trinity has not changed at all from their original state.

See:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Forging_the_Pact&oldid=827584#My_Story
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=The_Battle_of_Fort_Trinity&oldid=823752#My_Story

Furthermore, the dialogue in the actual story steps seems to be unchanged from what I have gathered.

This says nothing to say the quests were removed. It just means that ArenaNet didn’t bother to alter any text when they shifted and removed stuff.

anzenketh.3759:

I don’t think it’s a bug. It was mentioned in the patch notes, so it was definitely intended. Jeffery Vaungh’s comments cement the notion that it was intented.

I can interpret Chris in two ways:

1. He doesn’t know and is going to find out to relay that information to us.
2. ArenaNet has seen the outburst and are considering reverting the change.

I interpret it as #1

My comment that is a bug is me using logic. Please link me Jeffery Vaungh’s comments.

I linked two of them earlier in this thread, and one is in this very thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/My-Greatest-Fear-Plotline/first#post4392311
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Personal-Story-parts-missing/first#post4398038

There’s a few more, they’re all very vague, but just scroll through here.

Malkavian.4516:

I thought you guys might want to take a look at the screenshot I posted here. In case it doesn’t work. Check my recent post on http://malkavianrpg.tumblr.com/ as I uploaded the screenshot (because it seems this site is having trouble uploading images today) indicating that you still have that choice between your greatest fears.

THEY DID NOT CHANGE ANY OF THE DIALOGUE IN THE STORY STEPS, this includes that of choosing your fear.

This is what I’ve found out.

You chose what your greatest fear is, but the storyline is still cut. Go on, play past Forging the Pact. If you get Apatia or the others (whichever you picked), without your character having hit Forging the Pact prior to the update, then I’ll be convinced.

In other words, from what I gather and have seen, you say what your fear is, but there is no plot that enacts on it.

Rissa is actually a risen, I believe, in the same manner as Kellach – never dead, but twisted by the corruptive magic.

Risen and undead are not the same. And the risen don’t just drop dead because of Zhaitan’s death – they roam, they spread corruption still, and they can even grow stronger (Tequatl Rising). There’s apparently a plot to be had behind Tequatl Rising but we never got an inkling of what said plot is, sadly. We may never get it, in the end, since it seems that it was just an door opening release so that ArenaNet can get back to it when they’re ready (which in lore terms may end up being 10 years after the PS given the rate of the LW and their silly calendar syncing).

Forgotten magic/artifacts were immune to dragon corruption – in the “doesn’t happen” manner. Sylvari merely die when touched by dragon corruption, rather than transform.

As for Almorra, it was explained that she was on the very edge of the Dragonbrand. She was able to avoid corruption because she wasn’t touched by it. Though Ghosts of Ascalon’s recounting makes it seem otherwise, arguably it was an oversight.

They don’t seem to have altered any dialogue, and if you were in the storyline then you’d be able to finish it so being able to do the final part of it means nothing.

Zaxares.5419:

Prior to the NPE patch going live, all of my characters were at the start of what I now presume is Chapter 7 (meet Trahearne in Concordia to witness the start of the Pact). From what I’ve heard, this is the story step that should include Apatia and the related story steps.

I go through the PS very slowly (basically only when it shows up in the Daily), but I’ll report back on my findings once I’ve actually been through it.

If you have reached Forging the Pact prior to the update, then you will experience chapter 7 in its original form. However, you will not experience chapter 8 in its original form. Similarly, if you reached chapter 8 (starts with Temple of the Forgotten God originally) prior to the update, then you will experience it in its original form.

If you have not reached either then you will experience the new form when you get there (pending no other alterations).

Thia.4891:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

blakdoxa.7520:

I think there was something about how ANet is free to retcon story at will…

Oh yeah drop back Scarlet’s age… ohhhhhh weeeeeeeeeeeee

This isn’t really a case of retcon. Well, it is, but it’s more than that.

The order of the story steps now make more sense. From what I understand, the dialogue remains unchanged – though I’ll be going through on my warrior (who’s currently in the racial sympathy storyline) to double check this. If this is true, then that means that you’ll get dialogue and actions that make no sense. Heck, even if it isn’t true, this still happens. In so many ways.

If I may ask, how does it make more sense? I mean this seriously and with no malice or sarcasm. I always thought the story made sense myself, but I’m something of a lore fiend. And to be honest the very idea that they would change the order of their own story blows my mind and breaks my heart.

It doesn’t. That “more” was a typo. It should have been “no.”

My apologies.

anzenketh.3759:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Malkavian.4516:

Hello Chris. I am not sure if you are the right person I could ask for this job as the customer service thread doesn’t seem to tell me much, but this has something to do with the Personal Story.

First off, here’s the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2g02mx/the_personal_story_doesnt_make_sense_since_the/

Now I can understand rearranging certain chapters. I think I can live with it given time. But what caught my attention however is related to the quest A Light in the Darkness where you disabled the Your Greatest Fear portion of the quest, which in turn would disable the other quests related to that part (for example, the removal of Tonn and Apatia’s quests). I don’t know if this is really the case or not as I have finished Apatia’s quest after this patch was downloaded. I want to know if this is really true or not. And if so, I’d appreciate your insight as to why this happened.

Hey Malkavian,

Mind if i get back to you on this?

Chris

If this is true it is likely a bug. I have heard of a player playing this instance after patch so it is still in the game files.

I don’t think it’s a bug. It was mentioned in the patch notes, so it was definitely intended. Jeffery Vaungh’s comments cement the notion that it was intented.

I can interpret Chris in two ways:

1. He doesn’t know and is going to find out to relay that information to us.
2. ArenaNet has seen the outburst and are considering reverting the change.

Erukk.1408:

So, no singing Elder Dragons?

Can we at least get a Sons of Svanir recruiter breaking into a song and dance version of I’ll Make a Man Out of You?

Okay, I would actually pay to see that if done right. Just because it’d be hilarious. This like that, I wouldn’t mind seeing. Even if not part of April Fools to be honest.

But things like Hobo-Tron and what’s-that’s-Minstrel’s-name having arguments or being the subject of Scarlet’s joking hostage situation. Meh. When it came to joke characters and scenes Wozmack the Wonderful is far superior to our “friend” O-Tron (note: if you’ve at any point played the first human noble storyline, otherwise his reappearance at the very end is just a “…wut?” moment instead of a “omg! I remember him!” moment)

draxynnic.3719:

-snip- however, while others may disagree, I’m inclined to think that the general outlines of the various storylines have been solid. The problems have mostly been in their execution and how the various parts have worked together with each other and with pre-existing information.

I’d actually agree 100% on this.

The general outline of the storyline seems good, but each episode feels crammed together, covering individual plots all at once – the exception to this is Episode one which focuses more-or-less on one single thing: investigating the Zephyrite Crash in Dry Top, and tracking the Master of Peace. Episode 2 however split into two directions: showing off Scarlet’s work and introducing Mordrem; it overall worked, but could have used an additional step or two to help flesh both things out. Episode 3 and 4 is where it got really bad, however. I rather feel that each race should have gotten 3-4 steps to them, just as Taimi and the asura did. The charr one was longer than the norn and human ones, so in length it wasn’t too bad, but its execution was horrid and made it felt exceedingly short. I could go into more detail on this – upon request – but for now I won’t.

The same argument could be said for Season 1, though overall that was just this one big merry-go-round of “wtf is happening?” as each individual chapter/release felt overall disconnected, and how things were being tied so much into what would be reoccurring events made it even more confusing. The idiot ball repeating showing up didn’t help. But this is merely brief highlights – I don’t feel like going into depth tonight. But again, upon request, I will. I have been rather tempted to go do such anyways.

draxynnic.3719:

If musical numbers are something you like, don’t be afraid to put them in appropriate places… or even, with sufficient lampshading, inappropriate ones.

I also agree.

Just because people here say “don’t have things break into dance” – don’t not do that. If it makes sense, if it gives the right feels of comedy or tragedy or characterization, have characters break into song. So long as it makes sense that it’s done, and it’s done well, go ahead and do whatever you need to do to make a good story.

The problem only comes when something is done wrong. Having a single song every episode? That’d be too much. Having an Elder Dragon break into dance and song? Unless that’s Singalong, the Elder Music Dragon, just no (and even then, just no). But if it’s a character singing a song of lament over the grave of a lost loved on (e.g., if Ellyna Graidy were to begin singing a story about a bear and a bunny, and the bear dying – that would characterize Ellyna very well, it would be very fitting and very sad to hear), or if it’s something done intentionally to get a laugh, etc. so long as it fits, and is done well, don’t fear to do it.

That’s all I have to say for now. Maybe more later, we’ll see.

Jaken.6801:

Underdark.3726:

1) Are we 100% sure that the voice(s) Scarlet heard in her head was Mordremoth? If he was asleep at the time how did he communicate? Why did she had to mess with the lay lines to wake him up? What did she actually do to the lay line? Interrupt it? Why would Mordy wanted to interrupt his feeding and after that he starts to mess up (feeding again?) with the waypoints?

We do not know who or what was in Scarlets head.
We know she heard someone and she considered it more or less her master.
however there is no “ingame” confirmation that it was him.

Actually, we do have proof, but it’s only given to sylvari players.

Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
→ Scarlet?
I believe she opened herself to it when she let down the wall of her mind. Mordremoth’s corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

I think calling upon the other major races (tengu, kodan, largos – perhaps others) will be part of the next dragon’s plot. Unless ArenaNet decides to stop rinse-repeating their plotlines.

Roybe.5896:

The only reason I can even come up with on the removal of the Apatia story is some Chinese censorship issue that required the series to be completely removed from the code so it could not even be datamined. Whether it’s the idea of doing something that caused some one to be incarcerated and killed somehow being subversive to the Chinese government, or some social taboo that we do not understand. I have actually done this story step a few times because I thought it was actually one of the more compelling story ideas in the game. My two coppers on this. I hope it can come back…it made my characters who they are…

Edited for additional information:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apatia

“The word “apatia” appears in Portuguese, Esperanto, Finnish, Italian, and Polish with the meaning of “apathy.”

There’s the possible source of the problem. By naming her apathy that gives the powers that be in the Chinese government a reason to strike the story from the game. This can be construed as a call to rise up against the government….yes it seems odd, but if you look at it from the idea of a cautionary tale against apathy, the it truly becomes a call to act against repression.

The China client is completely different from our own. The only point of conformity between China and NA/EU dat files is just for ease of updates, but there’s a lot of things that aren’t shared – such as VIP mode (trust me, you don’t even want to hear what that bullkitten is about).

Furthermore, the content is still in the dat. The characters who are on Forging the Pact to the step prior to Temple of the Forgotten God will be able to complete chapter 7 in its original form. ArenaNet cannot remove it without forcing players forward/backwards – which given that they didn’t do such, they won’t – or no character in the entire playerbase is at said chapter in its original form.

So removing it from playability to remove it from the China’s dat file makes no sense.

RedStar.4218:

Metrics must have told them that their players aren’t paying any attention to the PS. So why bother with continuity when they can just remove things and only a small minority of players will even care to complain about it ?

Well, this for the most part is true, in that most players I’ve talked to don’t complete the PS more than 3 times – some not even more than once. This is due to all the bugs, bad voice acting, short-but-many instances, and so forth. And usually a problem of the earlier steps, not the latter.

In all honesty, I can only see them messing with Chapter 8 because of the Trahearne-took-over-my-story hate (which this does not fix) and removed Chapter 7 because…. maybe China? I honestly don’t know. I cannot fathom why they’d do such.

Let’s face it.

Everything about the change to the last two chapters has been stupid, inconsistent with continuity, and illogical.

Whomever thought that was a good idea was either high or is brain-dead. It’s become a clusterkitten of discontinuity.

1. You have to go past the temple of Melandru to reach the Source of Orr, but it’s a risen fortification as we see in Blast from the Past – which now happens later – and there’s no access into or past it.
2. You fight a Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan in the Source of Orr, and get the revelation that “the other Eyes” were royalty of Orr. The next step later (now), you meet two fierce risen, an Eye and Mouth, and in the following step you kill said Eye, learning in the next step that there’s more than one Eye – except we already know this, as the Eye we meet in the temple of Abaddon is the second Eye, and we make mention of “other Eyes” in the Source of Orr, indicating more than just the Sovereign Eye being encountered at that point.
3. In Against the Corruption, we have a large unit of Pact forces, yet we only invade Cursed Shore later on now, despite having established a foothold (thanks to pirates) well beforehand.
4. A minor one: previously, the Source of Orr was defended by only those that you met in your efforts in Orr as well as Lionguard Mira. Now, you don’t meet those individuals by the time you’re assaulting the Source.

This change would only have made sense if they altered which temple they went to (say, going to temple of Abaddon to learn this information of the Source) and where the Artesian Waters were (say placing them along the riven just past the catacombs in Straits of Devastation), while also altering about 25% of the dialogue in the PS, and the entire purpose, more or less, of What the Eye Beholds

So yes, once again I must state that whomever decided this was a good idea was either high, brain-dead, or they never did the storyline or bothered to look up what the steps are about (which means they don’t give a skritt’s kitten about GW’s story and lore and thus why the hell are they allowed to touch it?). I don’t care who it is that did it – even if it was Jeff and/or Ree that people respect. There’s no excuse for such a blunder, because even if they did the changes I mention, why put that much effort into it when said effort could have been put to making the already continuity-harming clusterkitten story a bit better?

Edit: And all this, of course, doesn’t even account the removal of the Fear plot, which introduces just as many continuity errors.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

That’s more likely a case of the luminary not sure whether or not there’s more than one such elder dragon out there.

Though I don’t think they mean an Elder Dragon that is undead, but rather an Elder Dragon of Undeath.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

This book has no author, no writing year and lists just 4 dragons. It might be well-thumbed, but lists obviously just observations of the last ~200 years. It doesn’t really help to get informations about the last rise and the nature of the dragons.

Not the best source, but it’s better than “no source” which is what you currently have.

According to dialogue that was unused for the original end of Season 1 where Marjory was killed off, Rytlock is Rox’s half-brother, older supposedly. The dialogue in E3 rather hints at some long-standing relation.

Since the dialogue was unused however, they can change it to “very old friends” or “their fahrars were next to each other” or something else like that if they want.

Behellagh.1468:

Metrics are tools, nothing more. It allows them to see what everyone is doing and not doing, not just forum posters. It gives they information as to where to look for improvements. Now what they do with this information and how to interpret it can be problematic. Not metrics themselves.

The issue with metrics is that they don’t show why we’re doing things.

Are we going to our home instance for those daily nodes because we enjoy doing it?

Or is it because that’s the best viable way to get Watchwork Sprockets and Blade Shards for that last Spinal Blade backpack we want to forge, and heck since we’re there might as well farm the other ones.

Or is it because we’ve done everything else that the only thing to do is something repetative, and that’s the closest and fastest repetative stuff to help with our dailies, or our daily gated content that we have to do if we want access to high level Fractals.

Metrics say what’s done. But never does it say why it’s done. Do we do it because it’s fun, or do we do it because we need to (or it’s the most profitable means of getting what we need) in order to begin what we feel would be fun?

And I think this is what the OP means by “we are not metrics”. Metrics is what we do, not why we do it. And most companies, sadly ArenaNet seems to be amongst them now, are too stuck on the “what” rather than the “why”.

If you give players 10 things to do, but 8 of them are one-time-only stuff to be able to do, then obviously they’ll be doing the last 2 more often. But does this mean they like those last two things? Not necessarily.

And before you go say “don’t do what you don’t want to do” or “if you don’t like it don’t do it” or whatever way of saying that, please take note that sometimes, designers make the fun stuff blocked by the boring stuff, and sometimes we become conditioned to do simple repetitive things not realizing we don’t like it except in general concept – see: Skinner Box.

blakdoxa.7520:

I think there was something about how ANet is free to retcon story at will…

Oh yeah drop back Scarlet’s age… ohhhhhh weeeeeeeeeeeee

This isn’t really a case of retcon. Well, it is, but it’s more than that.

The order of the story steps now make more sense. From what I understand, the dialogue remains unchanged – though I’ll be going through on my warrior (who’s currently in the racial sympathy storyline) to double check this. If this is true, then that means that you’ll get dialogue and actions that make no sense. Heck, even if it isn’t true, this still happens. In so many ways.

Maxwell.7843:

I don’t understand, have those missions been removed, or not?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2g57cq/greatest_fear_arc_isnt_gone_guys/

Could someone from the dev team please pop by and clarify?

If they have not been removed, how come some players report their absence? Is it a bug?
And if they indeed have been removed from the game, may we know why and if there is a chance to have them back? The “greatest fear” storyline was good, and it’s a real shame if it’s not part of the Personal Story anymore

There were posts by Jeffrey Vaughn stating that if you are on the Fear storyline then you will complete it. Being on Forging the Pact, you’d have chosen your fear and be on that storyline already (chapter 7 begins with Forging the Pact).

So the OP got “grandfathered in”. After Sad Duty (the final of original Chapter 7 steps for Tonn’s storyline), you will go to Against the Corruption.

Any new character who is not at Forging the Pact, however, will go straight from Forging the Pact → The Battle of Fort Trinity → Against the Corruption.

Similarly, any character in chapter 8 (Temple of the Forgotten God or on) will experience that final chapter in the original order – again, having been “grandfathered in”.

Link to aforementioned dev post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/My-Greatest-Fear-Plotline/first#post4392311
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Personal-Story-parts-missing/first#post4398038

So basically, any character who has not completed Retribution/reached Forging the Pact will never see a fear storyline. Any character who has not reached Temple of the Forgotten God will see chapter 8 in the new order.

Leah Hoyer.1983:

commitment to tell the best stories possible.

I’m sad to say that there’s a long way to go with how the living story is going.

Leah Hoyer.1983:

So, don’t expect the Elder Dragons to break into song anytime soon.

Can we have this as April’s Fools video?

Leah Hoyer.1983:

I’m eager to hear what you think is working and what you think needs improvement, so let me know. I look forward to more chats.

I could give you a huge list.

Most recent offender was the unnecessary changes to the personal story – removal of the greatest fear storyline and moving the very end (the climax of the story) to just before the final chapter.

The storytelling has been sub-par with far too many cases of stories being unfold offscreen. Take Season 2 Episode 2’s sudden mention of Mordremoth, or most of Season 1.

I really don’t have much issue with the characters – the only one I could really say has issues were Scarlet Briar – who felt like a generic Harley Quinn that was turned into Scarcrow who was turned into something entirely different – and Trahearne – who came into the personal story out of nowhere for non-sylvari characters.

The issue comes in the storytelling and the lore contradictions. So if you want to improve the story, I have one word of advice:

Learn and love the lore. All of it.

If you prevent contradictions, then the amount of hatred and complaints towards the story will decrease incredibly. Some of the greatest complaints of Season 1 was Scarlet’s rather confusing constantly-changing personality, the off-screen storytelling, the forced “players don’t know” to attempt mystery (it doesn’t), and the lore continuity errors.

There’s little to do to fix the problems and disdain that was raised due to story made, but hopefully you can help improve future story, which in time will lessen the at disdain.

If you can prevent any lore continuity errors, then you’ve made a huge step towards improvement. If you can prevent stories being told off-screen, then you’ve made a bigger step towards improvement.

I wouldn’t listen to Clerigo, as he just represents a portion of the community (not everyone dislikes the biconics). Just as some dislike the biconics (Braham, Rox, etc.) some hate Destiny’s Edge.

Also, belated, but welcome to the community. I’m Konig, a connoisseur of GW lore and stories. I look forward to seeing improvements, though you’ll have to forgive me if I’m not hopeful – there’s been far too many disappointments from ArenaNet this past two years.

Leah Hoyer.1983:

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I appreciate your comments and will say that consistent, complex, nuanced characters and storytelling are absolutely my goal as well. I’m soaking up all the existing story that I can, via gameplay, wikis, our novels, and lots and lots of conversations with my coworkers who have great insights (and opinions) on our expansive lore. I really love the game and am excited to be a part of it moving forward. Keep the comments coming!

Leah
(now with fancy, red ANet banner)

If you want some help in getting to know what the community knows of lore, just let me know. I have a reserve of old interviews (even as far back as 2004!), links to all the stories written and published, and even have access to the manuals and artbooks that contained well-hidden lore.

I hope you make a visit periodically to the lore forum, they’re quite deprived of dev posts. And of those that show, it’s sadly “sorry, in hindsight we could have done better, this is what we meant/why we did that!”

BTW, you guys hiring another writer?

ShroomOneUp.6913:

read the last sentences of forging the pact and battle of fort trinity. those are the fear missions.

You talking about mounting a rescue mission?

That’s referring to going into the mines and saving Kekt. All part of Forging the Pact. And unchanged too.

They removed them, downright.

Which is stupid since they’re pretty kitten important to the plot! Especially Apatia’s plot, but Tonn and the mesmer forces of Zhaitan too.

But what makes less sense is how they put the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan and the revelation that the Eyes are royalty before we learn that there’s even more than one Eye!

This is utter idiocy and I’d have to go with Eluviete. They obviously stopped giving a kitten about the story.

Didn’t notice that post above the dev post then.

That’s horrible if so. Just. Simply. Terrible.

Who would think such is a good idea? And why would they do it? Now Battle of Fort Trinity makes no sense.

From what I understand from discussion here is that in the story journal itself the story steps aren’t showing up, but they’re in the same place. However, chapter 8 got butchered with the latter 1/3rd of it (Against the Corruption to The Source of Orr) being placed after the Fear storylines (and before Temple of the Forgotten God).

Edit:

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

From the update notes:

Chapter 7 is now focused on helping Trahearne cleanse Orr.
Chapter 8 is now focused on defeating Zhaitan.

The story steps that were in Ch8 that involved helping Trahearne with his wyld hunt have been moved to Ch7.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Did-I-loose-my-story-progression/first#post4383909

Edit2: Beaten by Behellagh

Andrephi.5692:

yeah it kinda sucks…having a story quest every 2 lvls or so had a great flow to it and kept things interesting, now it feels like a grind…
so every 10 lvls I get like, 5 story missions since they are not every 2 or 3 lvls anymore ?

The flow was actually pretty terrible at low levels as you’d often be a couple levels shy after a while if you focused on the story, which resulted in people leveling up in the open world then focusing on the story in big chunks. It’s those people’s actions which apparently influenced this part of the update.

Ideally, I wouldn’t mind. The issue however is that the personal story was designed and written with a continuous flow in mind. Now you have “visit me when you get well” (human storyline) but you don’t – you wait until you get level 10 to visit (it’s not so bad for asura, sylvari, and norn, but charr it’s just as bad with your warband recently deceased – no need to report in soldier! Go do some training out in the field first! >.>). Another bad part being the Racial sympathies – the end of the now-level 40 arc ends with you picking a racial sympathy, but then you have to get to level 50 to continue it, and it’s only once you hit level 60 that you see the race’s speaker (Gara, etc.) with your Order head. The other splits aren’t so bad with the time gap.

I personally don’t mind the time gap, except for those cases.

Oh, and how about how we get AC unlocked at level 30 – but in the level 40 PS is when Eir gets the idea of retrieving Magdaer and heads off to the Ascalon Catacombs. So now you’re doing dungeons 10+ levels before they should happen in accordance to the Personal Story! Logic!

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

From the update notes:

Chapter 7 is now focused on helping Trahearne cleanse Orr.
Chapter 8 is now focused on defeating Zhaitan.

The story steps that were in Ch8 that involved helping Trahearne with his wyld hunt have been moved to Ch7.

Can you please explain this decision? I made a thread here about it, because it makes no sense.

As I point out in said thread you:

• Fight the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, which has been long designed to be a climatic battle where your defended by your allies throughout your trials in Orr.
• Then you go to the Temple of the Forgotten God, where you meet first of said allies, and encounter a lesser Eye of Zhaitan.
• Then you kill said lesser Eye of Zhaitan. Where you meet second said ally/allies.
• Then you fight out the revelation that there’s more than one Eye of Zhaitan…. but we… killed… two… now…
• Then it’s the mouth, more allies, then risen supplies, more allies, then it’s invasion into Cursed Shore… where we already were for the cleansing of Orr storyline – which I should add, begins with a series of Pact troops in Cursed Shore! Seems like we invaded it already, when we invade it later now.

Unless that is, there has been a dialogue – both spoken and text – change throughout all of these steps to ensure they flow better. But if that’s the case, and you spent time and money “fixing” the personal story, why not spend this time and money making a better Season 2 or making Season 1 permanent content?

So, again, please explain this design decision. Because it makes no freaking sense.

DanteZero.9736:

Are we certain the personal story missions were removed or are the journal entries just rearranged in the journal and still present in the game?

From posters, it seems that the fear storyline is not showing up in the story journal, but according to the update notes the cleansing of Orr bit (Against the Corruption to The Source of Orr) got moved to be in Chapter 7 (formerly just the fear storyline).

nexxe.7081:

They wanted to condense the steps into chunks of 10. That is why there is 8 steps now.
Chapter 1: lvl 10
Chapter 2: lvl 20
Chapter 3: lvl 30
…
Chapter 8 : lvl 80

I actually like it better this way. It’s more coherent now. Before, you would need to do personal stories for let’s say, level 6, level 9, level 14, etc. It was more fragmented, and then you would have to level up before continuing the story.

I should also add, that they needed to compromise on some steps, so they had to move some around within the 8 chapters.

That’s irrelevant to the discussion of the topic.

And in fact, the personal story was always divided into eight chapters – as players could tell by the acheivement unlocking and recently a stealth update with episode 2 or 3 that put the PS steps into 8 groups (the chapters).

The issue is that the story journal doesn’t document what was chapter seven, and 1/3rd of chapter 8 – the latter third – got tacted on to the end of chapter 7 according to the story journal.

It has no relation to unlocking or level grouping – if you want that, go to this thread someone else started.

And that last bit of your post makes no sense, since as I said it already was in eight chapters. Chapter eight was just three times longer than any other chapter. They could easily have made it 10 chapters if they wanted, to be honest, and it wouldn’t matter with the current unlocking system since it has to be done in order still anyways. There was no need of “compromise”. Because now instead of chapter 8 being 3 times longer than other chapters, chapter 7 and chapter 8 are twice as long (presuming that Xhyros is right in that the Fear storyline not showing up is a bug), and the order has changed for no bloody reason! If they needed to shorten chapter 8 via lengthening chapter 7, why couldn’t they move Temple of the Forgotten God to Further Into Orr (or the step prior to that one) into chapter 7, rather than taking the last 3 story steps of chapter 8 and moving them to before all the rest of chapter 8?

Ignoring Wall-o-Text-much, I kind of agreed. Hearts were always boring, now they’re just more boring, and were designed to help ease traditional MMO players into the mindset of GW2 – as well as direct players to content such as events. Now they’re even more akin to traditional MMO quests. As is the leveling system. And the gear grind. Even the story is starting to feel less and less Guild Wars-like.

Ever since release, it feels that ArenaNet has lost its originality and innovation, and is now just a b2p model of traditional MMO stuff, slowly conforming more and more to it.

I find this very sad. And I don’t say this to complain, but rather that I feel this is what’s happening. And if I were to point a finger, I’d probably point it to Anet’s management from what I’ve heard.

This feature batch had a good amount of improvements, but I’m unsure if it’s worth the downgrading that’s geared towards all the “new players”.

Xhyros.1340:

After the Battle of Fort Trinity, I had the final two steps of the Apatia storyline. They still happen apparently, it’s just not listed in the journal anymore.

That doesn’t explain why they shuffled around Chapter 8. With the new order, per the story jounal, you go from killing the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan (The Source of Orr) to meeting “your first” Eye of Zhaitan (Temple of the Forgotten God) to the revelation that -gasp- there’s more than one Eye of Zhaitan (What the Eye Beholds). That is, unless they spent money to rework the voice acting of Trahearne, the PC, and Sayeh in those steps – which would cost enough money that one would wonder why Trahearne and the PC hasn’t had spoken dialogue in Season 2 yet.

So presuming that they just doubled the size of Chapter 7 so that the final two chapters are equal… why put the end of Chapter 8 into Chapter 7, rather than the beginning of Chapter 8?

Unless that’s a bug too and it won’t show it properly on my ranger – who is at Cathedral of Silence – because the Story Journal got messed up.

But if they didn’t reorder the story steps, then why the update notes suggesting they did? I guess I’d find out if I did two story steps (Cathedral + Source) but atm, this is just one big migraine that I can’t handle logging in atm.

And I also realized:

• Tonn is talked about a few times, and even has an Ascended stat named after him. Now new players won’t know who the heck he is. Or that the Ascended stat description is inaccurate in calling him a charr…
• The Blue Orb is important in The Battle of Fort Trinity, now it has zero context, because the entire process of obtaining the Orb is cut apparently.
• The Source of Orr had credits and played Fear Not This Night – is this still true? It also had a gathering of all your allies throughout Orr’s adventures, now you don’t meet any of them, so… who’s defending the entrance now? No one?
• You fight a major Eye of Zhaitan in The Source of Orr, but the Temple of the Forgotten God’s ending is all about meeting two powerful risen: the Eye of Zhaitan and the Mouth of Zhaitan; the following two steps are about finding out there’s more than one Eye. So… how’s this work now?

Honestly, I don’t get it. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes. It has to have a dialogue overhaul else it makes no sense. But that’d cost money for all that new voice acting (mostly Sayeh and Trahearne I think though), and there was no real need to “fix” this. Why spend time, effort, and potentially money to fix something that doesn’t when we have the blunder of Season 1 that needs to be made permanent and hopefully have its plot improved greatly too?

This… just makes no sense to me. And this is becoming one of the last straws for the game’s story. Despite the rest of the Feature Batch, I’m highly tempted to just say “kitten it, I quit” after all of the clusterkitten of inconsistencies in Season 1 and 2, and now even the PS (arguably on a greater scale).