Guild Wars 2

adozu.6398:

i also remember how an asura turned us into an avatar of balthazar to fight off the undead in lion’s arch, i dunno, that’s another great opportunity wasted for humans to do… something? (granted that was the best transform in the game)

Though the ritual – while led by Gixx – was performed by four human “ritualists”.

Of course, one of them flubbed up killing herself and the others. Leaving only Gixx alive, because he didn’t mess up his end of the ritual – wait, what?

eats popcorn while wondering how long this thread will last, it having survived my expectations

I’d rather not see that, to be honest.

If you haven’t, read Drax’s post that I linked earlier in this thread. He makes an important point and very well so. But the summarize it: humanity has nothing going for them in GW2. Every accomplishment they make is either because of another race, or superceded by another race. What they were said to have going for them during development – knowledge of history – has been redacted by so much of what they know being false (see: Arah explorable, Seer and Forgotten paths primarily; or the post by Angel McCoy “here”: ) – either by the historians intention or not. The point in the end was to reduce the human-centricness of GW1, but in all honesty it went to far and now we have a sylvari-centricness in GW2, with humans at the very bottom by a mile difference to charr, asura, and sylvari.

These tour guides give humans part of that sense of knowing their history and heritage that the other races don’t show. The other major cities do have a number of NPCs that give a history of the place or the race, but they’re not nearly as showing off the good work. The only way to improve the tours was to make them occur constantly – without player triggering – so that they become more obvious.

This is why in my post above, I only listed the bigger human settlements, because it feels like a good way to give something that humans have going for them, that the other races cannot do the same or better at.

If tour guides were added to other races’ capitals, the only thing I ask is that they’re human historians and scholars so as to show that humanity even has the history of the lands of other races – and even the history of those races, whether or not the other races have them too. There is a need to cease the dropping of human standing in GW2, as we’ve seen them with very little going for them.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

how awesome could it be if caithe as a member of destiny edge, slayer of dragons was only doing her masters will because mordy wants no competion eating magic in tyria. :P

Incredibly predictable – as everyone’s thought of it obviously – and cliche, not to mention makes little to no sense for Caithe since she hates the dragons and the Nightmare (and it would make less sense if the constant ties between Nightmare and Mordremoth become true).

If such becomes the case – or sylvari being Mordremoth’s minions become true – then this game has about as much continuity and sense as Gintama. Read: little to none.

At the end of the mission, after you destroy the urns that’s stated to be radiating corruption, the corpses rise as thralls.

Trahearne: Those urns scattered around the room are steeped in Zhaitan’s magic!
Trahearne: The dragon must have distilled its essence. Pure necrotic power, in concentrated form.
Trahearne: It’s corrupting all the corpses stored here and fueling the construction of new abominations.

The urns seem to hold two purposes: corrupting the corpses outright, and “fueling” the construction of new abominations, which we see being done in the center of the temple (where the Priestess is fought in the meta event).

It wouldn’t really seem like much for “crippling Zhaitan’s troop reinforcement” if all we did was stop the production of the uncommon abominations.

MatthewMedina.5419:

The initial plan was to have these tours (or some appropriate alternative) in all the major cities. The Divinity’s Reach tour was created by Kim Kirsch, who was the content designer for DR, and I ran out of time to implement this with the other cities which I was responsible for during the first iteration. Before I moved off of cities onto some of the event maps, I managed to sneak in the “runners” in Hoelbrak and Black Citadel who would take you to places of interest, but they only had generic lines for getting players to follow them. Then, when we got closer to shipping the game and I had the chance to come back to the cities, it was decided that it really made the most sense to have this tour be an exclusive feature of DR as a very human thing to do, and we tried to tell the other race’s lore with other means (the norn spirit shrines, the Citadel military statues and plaques, the mentor/student circles in the Grove and the colleges in Rata Sum).

Thanks for the history lesson. It would be nice if the Crown Pavilion got/will get one… maybe add one to the Ascalon Settlement, Claypool, Shaemoor, Beetletun, Garrenhoff, and… well, I would say “and Fort Salma” but.. Just to spread it to being a more human thing?

Eh? Eh?!?

Squee.7829:

I guess it’s never to late to start a “public Service” guild for anyone bored enough to stand around towns and walk people around :p

I know some RP’ers who do meet-and-greets to give a brief lore of places/groups from an IC-knowledge point of view.

We’re not talking about the abominations (and you may be interested in this event in Mount Maelstrom – more specifically, its follow up, which doesn’t seem to be on the wiki for some reason). We’re rather referring to the final room, where a bunch of standard corpses are being soaked with magical urns radiating corrupted magic. These corpses were brought via ships (such as the one attacked and sunk in the alternative story path from Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead) from the front lines.

Slowpokeking.8720:

We are talking about Zhaitan. Blightghast didn’t command anything, it just bust in and caused massive destruction in the end of the battle. It appears similar to the Maw in the battle in Seas of Sorrows. Tequatl is similar. They are spreading corruption and serve as the most powerful weapon of the dragon. During the assault of Orr, we also don’t see the dragons commanding the army, they mostly stay in Arah and defend their masters. The Eye of Zhaitan, along with a few high rank Risen are the commanders leading Zhaitan’s troops. The navy was also commanded by the captains

I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?

After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.

During the invasion of Orr, the dragons are busy battling a fleet of airships. Just go to any Orr map and look up.

We never once see an Eye leading forces, actually. We see the temple priests leading armies in Orr, but never the Mouth nor the Eyes. The navy was indeed led by captains, but they appeared to be of lieutenant ranking instead of champion (exceptions being Morgus Lethe).

Slowpokeking.8720:

Not much, it’s just carrying the master’s will without showing much tricks like Glint, the Dragonspawn or some champions of Zhaitan.

But yet it knew where to attack… or was the assault on the PC when communicating with the norn to build an army, or the attack on the golem foundry that was building a stronger weapon to assault the destroyers, or the attacks on dwarven forces (Raven’s Point dungeon, for example), all pure coincidence?

I find that hard to believe. The Great Destroyer is outright stated to have been coordinating the assaults. And though there was no communication, it doesn’t show mindlessness, but a strategic mind. It just isn’t highlighted.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Dragonspawn was leading the Icebrood army and keep threatening the Norn, it could turn people into Icebrood with its will, and it could channel Jormag’s power to create a massive blizzard without much effort, this is clearly beyond any of the Claws we saw.

The Dragonspawned only threatened norn in the form of retaliation.

All icebrood seem capable of corrupting people via telepathy/their will. We see massive blizzards in The Frozen Maw and one of the Dredgehaunt Cliffs events – done by mere Sons of Svanir. Surely a most important champion would be able to do more than what we see out of common Sons, yes?

Slowpokeking.8720:

They do command the armies.

Point out where, then.

The catacombs beneath the Temple of Balthazar? Nope. That guy’s resting until we disturb him. So was the Risen King in the royal catacombs in the event. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan? Nope. He’s just defending that one spring. The one in Doric’s Shrine – he’s patrolling, alone. The Eye we kill after the temple of Abaddon? He has some grunts with him, but hardly an ‘army’. The three Eyes in Arah explorable? Could be, but we have Zhaitan himself there at the same time, and dragons in the distance.

And I think that’s all the Eyes we see.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Yes, an Eye and a Mouth. The Eye concerns me more. It always precedes an attack by Zhaitan’s horde, so it must become our new priority.

Precede != lead

To argue that, would be saying the Risen scouts – which precede an attack by Zhaitan’s horde (amazing how the role suddenly switches… oversight, my little writers!) – were leading the assaults on Port Noble and Lion’s Arch…

Slowpokeking.8720:

The dragons are mostly the strongest weapon force of Zhaitan rather than commanders.

Dragonspawn obviously is more important than the Claws to Jormag. Actually different dragons use different commanding structure.

I disagree greatly!

Blightghast was the commander of the assault on Claw Island, whom had at least four champions beneath him! Those six being Thaddeus Ghostrite (assaulted Lion’s Arch’s northern beach), Lord Zhim Alarjann (assaulted the Durmand Priory), Vizier Ghil Ironghoul (assaulted Vigil Keep), and Admiral Feiste Bakkir (assaulted the Chantry of Secrets).

Glint, when known as Glaust, was Kralkatorrik’s defender.

The Great Destroyer was tasked with heralding Primordus’ return by exterminating all life.

The Claws of Jormag have been assaulting the kodan in their flight south, while the Dragonspawn merely defended a single cave.

Tequatl led the assaults on hylek homelands.

The Shadow of the Dragon led the assault on the Pale Tree.

The dragons, in my observations, are the highest commanders and while a lot are kept near the Elder Dragon and act as defenders, they’re also the commanders of the largest assault forces.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Primordus-Hive structure, one of a few champions create and command rest of the destroyers drones. Even the champions don’t seem to possess too much intelligence, just carry its master’s order.

The Great Destroyer showed to possess enough intelligence to carry the destroyer’s actions across the entirety of the continent. That’s not enough intelligence for you?

Slowpokeking.8720:

Jormag-Not sure about Drakkar. A few Claws to spread corruption, used to have the Dragonspawn to corrupt and command other beings into Icebrood, it even could directly channel its power. The SoS have free will, they empower the dragon and plot assault, sometimes command Icebrood. Jormag itself also communicate with mortals through its champions and weapons to lure and corrupt them.

The Claws aren’t just spreading corruption, they’re assaulting those who flee from Jormag. Hence their names as Claws of Jormag.

The Dragonspawn was merely defending a cave that housed an army, and though he channeled Jormag’s power… so do simple Svanir shamans.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Zhaitan-It doesn’t have a single most powerful champion. Mostly different ranks of champions with different duty

Eyes-commanders and seekers
Mouth-Eat magic for the dragon
Dragons(and the Maw)-powerful weapons and spread corruptions
Undead Captains-The Navy Commander

The Eyes appear as no more commanders as any other champion, but serve as direct eyesight for Zhaitan – hence the giant eye they carry around (those eyes by all appearances are separate from the actual beings).

And while Zhaitan does show specialization of champions, keep in mind we have seen so very few champions of the other Elder Dragons – they could do the same. Like the Destroyer Queen whom by all appearances had the sole role of creating and defending destroyer grunts in a non-volcanic environment. That’s rather specialized.

ArenaNet uses the terms interchangeably but what they imply are certainly different and yet neither hold true to what we are given (at least, in my view).

To me, a living story is a plotline that expands and evolves based off of your decisions and actions – rather than a story that is on a single railroad. Dishonored, the Mass Effect trilogy, Dragon Age, The Witcher (from what I’ve heard as I’ve yet to play it) and to a small degree the personal story are such stories to various degrees and designs. What we’re given via season 1 and season 2 are very much a railroaded story – the play player decision change being whether Kiel or Econ won the election, and whether you have Rox or Braham join you during the Concordia step (the latter having no effect at all).

Living World instead implies the background of the story’s world – things both related and unrelated to the plot – being expanded as time goes on, both reflecting player interaction, and the lack thereof.

We get neither.

You get an extra item from each E3 and E4 step you complete. In case you want to make a second back item or you delete it the first time.

Based off of my observations, I classify dragon minions into four categories:

• Grunts: the lowest ones, often mindless of near mindless. They do nothing but swarm enemies and shout only the simplest of things – if say anything at all. The most common of minions. Examples: Jungle Tendrils, Risen Thralls, Destroyer Crabs.
• Lieutenants: sapient-questionable to semi-sapient and low ranked, capable of commanding grunts in low numbers but ability to spread corruption is questionable. In-game, they are often showed as veteran, sometimes champions (maybe elites too). Examples: Veteran Risen Kitah Conjurer, Veteran Destroyer Lieutenant, Veteran Branded Lieutenant.
• Champions: sapient and high ranked, capable of commanding full armies of both grunts and lieutenants, and a strong ability to spread corruption. In-game, they are often showed as champion and legendary (maybe elites too). Examples: Captain Whiting, Dragonspawn, Eye of Zhaitan, Mouth of Zhaitan.
• Dragons: sapience-questionable, highest ranked and strongest of champions, capable of commanding large armies and all lesser ranks. They always appear as dragons. Examples: Glint, Tequatl, Blightghast, Shadow of the Dragon, Claw of Jormag.

I would place the “Risen Corruptor” (iirc that’s the name), though labeled as a champion mechanically, as a Lieutenant with this listing. Though it is possible it is a champion.

I think DR is the only place with such NPCs. There are NPCs that tell the history of places throughout the other major settlements (mainly the main cities mind you), but none that give a tour with voiced speeches.

I think that system was meant to help show the original presented point of what humanity brings to the table of the five races: knowledge of the past. Sadly, as Drax so elegantly pointed out here – such does not exist strongly in the game.

The book idea was scrapped – as I heard – because they couldn’t get it to how they wanted it to be before launch. I presume it hasn’t been reinitiated due to constraints and low on priority listing. It was just about the creatures and factions of the world as it was, anyways, though I do wish they brought it back. In force.

@Stooperdale: Actually, very few points of interests are explained. Good luck finding explanations for all those Orrian PoIs! I’ve looked. And looked. And looked.

But as you said, lore is only given when it is relevant to things happening now. Which is a bit of an annoyance.

Going off of ALL data there is, which is a lot so I shalt not name them all but good sources beyond Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead being the novels Sea of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny, shows this:

Zhaitan simply needs to send his corruption into a corpse to corrupt it. This is most commonly done via a champion going out on raiding settlements and the like. For example, the Lionguard who fall in battle with Morgus Lethe, or the Krytan guards who fell at Port Noble, or the sailors who fell in the battle against Captain Whiting (EoD, SoS, and SoS respectively), as well as the krait of The Mire Sea during the Apatia storyline, all die and are corrupted on the spot. Zhaitan’s corruption are strong in such cases, due to the presence of a champion in the former three, and unexplained expansions of corruption in the last. Those who die in Orr are like this. In these cases, those who die don’t even hit the floor before they become a risen.

Such situations are even seen without champions in some cases, such as the drake broodmother in Caledon. Still, there is a figure that is capable of spreading corruption.

Those we see in the Ossuary thus must not be those killed by risen, but raided corpses instead. In short, graverobbing or those slain without a heavy concentration of corruption to instantly turn them.

The Ossuary is not the sole source of risen-making, just the primary one for not-on-the-spot corruption.

There’s a lot of NPCs moving about so it’s hard to note, but if you go through it you’ll clearly see all sylvari fighting independently – except where Caithe and Trahearne leave, the generic wardens die.

It opens with killing some Mordrem in front, for me. Killed a couple of the husks and a leecher and some tendrils and it opened at least.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Less focus on the Biconics, while they are a group of heroes in the world it would be interesting to let them go their own way post S2 and give other things a chance to shine, like the cast of Lions Arch, or maybe minor chars, maybe the pact.

Not to mention that some of their involvement is becoming hypocritical.

Take Braham. He has been despising his mother since we met him, and had since then said he would never follow in her footsteps and fight the Elder Dragons. What is he doing now? Oh yes, fighting an Elder Dragon.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Sub Antagonists, aka: Humanoid villains and not just the dragons, something like Scarlet, but done more concisely so that its less confusing

I agree. For good GW1 examples, I would suggest looking at Varesh Ossa, Xan Hei, Reisen the Phoenix, Apep, Unending Night, Verata the Necromancer, and perhaps best yet: Palawa Joko. With GW2 villians, the closest we get is Caudecus and Kudu – and Kudu best if you played an asura with the weather changer storyline. These figures don’t have to be fought the whole time either! They just have to be present and offer an open opinion that we can judge before killing them. If we kill them.

For example, with Reisen the Phoenix, the entire time I was hoping we’d get a chance to reason with him, rather than having our hand forced to kill him thanks to the prosecutions of a third party.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Dry top is only ONE zone with no new sign of a dungeon any time soon, that took 2 months to “fully” make over the course of 4 updates.

And Season 1 was any better? Yeah, we got Molten Facility at the end of the fourth month – aka fifth non-holiday update, and we got Southsun at the very first update. But take into consideration how much content there was with Southsun after The Lost Shores and before Secrets of Southsun (read: very, very little; there’s still very little – far far less than Dry Top). And while we got Molten Facility, the full four updates of Flame and Frost in full barely meet the amount of content we got in the first episode of Season 2.

So while it took 8 weeks – 4 updates – to give us all of Dry Top (though if you discount Episode 3, it’d be 6 weeks/3 updates given that they overlooked expanding it for one update), it combined with the other four updates is still more than even the final four updates of Season 1.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Focus less on weekly update, and more on what might be SIMILAR to an expansion, this means, longer development time, but bigger content chunks E.g:
- 3 month development time for the first part of season 3, it comes with the first 4 episodes of 12, 2 new zones and potentially 1 new world boss.
- It may sound like a lot of work for devs to make that much in only 3 months but since zones would be no bigger than dry top in expanse I don’t see an excuse why they cant in 3 months of dev time.

Supposedly, there is still a four month production period for the four episodes we saw of S2 thus far. So 3 months is unnecessarily reducing the time spent. :P

But more seriously, they kind of gave exactly that (just one zone short of your desires) in the four updates and releasing all at once or over time wouldn’t have changed much.

This said, I do like the idea of larger updates with more spacing inbetween. Do what was done with Winds of Change – that was recieved exceptionally well compared to even War in Kryta, which is obviously in hindsight a prototype of the Living World but it has two things going for it that the Living World of GW2 never will: instanced zones for individual players, and a long period of no-content prior to it (I bet you that WiK wouldn’t have gotten as much hype as it did if it began 3 months after Eye of the North, rather than 2+ years).

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Raid Boss Atunement, E.g. Certain parts of a zone are afflicted with THICK dragon corruption and give you an almost instant kill Debuff without atunement, thus you have to UNLOCK the right to fight the world boss, which has a special weapon set that only drops exclusively from that boss, and will guarantee you a chance to acquire it IF you can kill the boss in an associated time ONCE you are attuned (yes it sounds hard but its really not to develop or to do as a player).

So basically you want Agony and Agony Resistance in the open world with equivalent of Fractal weapons tied to said open world content? No, thank you. That is just a cheap way of gating rewards with fake difficulty rises. The problem with Agony is the main disgruntlement of Hard Mode in GW1 – all it is, is “higher harmful (to players) numbers!” I despise the Agony system already, no need to expand it. Despite similar effect to GW1’s Spectral Agony and Infusion system, it functions terribly differently and in all the wrong ways.

All this kind of mechanic does is unnecessarily gate content in a game that proclaims easy access to all content.

biggs.4702:

1. Caithe was influenced by Mordremoth from the beginning (formation of Destiny’s Edge), for the purposes of defeating the other elder dragons in order to provide more magic/strength to Mordremoth. The secret Scarlet knows about Caithe is that Caithe is also influenced by Mordremoth, just as she was.

2. Caithe wasn’t influenced by Mordremoth at first, but she is now. After the failure of Destiny’s Edge, the rise in prominence of Trahearne over her, and the loss of Faolin, Caithe was in despair. An easy target for a whispering voice to manipulate with promises of power and redemption.

There’s a heavy implication that the Nightmare is caused by Mordremoth. If so, she would hate Mordremoth more than anything in the world. That is not something you’d fall to.

Furthermore, her dialogue during the World Summit, though sparse, doesn’t hold the same kind of mentality as Ceara or Aerin, while all dragon minions tend to hold shared personality traits that are rather obvious, which hinders the thought that Caithe is corrupted.

Caithe didn’t really fall into despair anyways, she would have if not for our PCs as we see during A Light in the Darkness, but the actions of Twilight Arbor story mode is us helping Caithe out of her little dark corner. She remained healthier than ever for the rest of the dungeon storyline and even so in Aetherpath.

Caithe’s hatred towards Scarlet seems to be irrelevant to the secret. Not many people seem to pay attention to talking to NPCs during dungeons, but if you do so with Caithe then she’ll talk about how the two never got along while Scarlet remained in the Grove. There’s an old rivalry amongst them in the first place, and Scarlet taunting her with a supposed secret only pushed her buttons.

biggs.4702:

She shows up at the Summit for The Dragon’s Reach, Part 2 unannounced, not saying a word.

You can talk to her at the beginning. She doesn’t say anything during the actual meeting, but neither do the biconics. Trahearne, like Caithe, doesn’t have voiced lines.

biggs.4702:

A major beasty shows up and nearly kills the Pale Tree, and Caithe, one of the best fighters in Tyria who has fought against dragons before and who is also a Firstborn…

does nothing.

She does nothing to protect the Pale Tree, nothing to help you.

Caithe and Trahearne both equally fight the Mordrem. However, where Trahearne is planted in the ground and only attacks those near the Pale Tree, Caithe moves around attacking the closest Mordrem. When all Mordrem are killed, she and Trahearne leave as the final national leader leaves.

biggs.4702:

After the fight is over, she’s nowhere to be seen.

Which can be explained by many things. Tracking the Mordrem’s retreat to see where they’re going, cleaning up any Mordrem on lower levels (the Pale Tree says they gnaw at her roots so there’s clearly some down below that we never see), or investigating how they got to the Pale Tree so easily.

There are more explanations than “she’s suspicious!!!!”

biggs.4702:

This creature is called “The Shadow of the Dragon,” but it doesn’t say which dragon.

Angel McCoy recently explained that the Shadow of the Dragon we fought in the tutorial is, in fact, the shadow of the Shadow of the Dragon (the champion of Mordremoth). As ridiculous as it may sound…

“The Shadow of the Dragon is definitely one of Mordremoth’s lieutenants. It is a plant creature and quite evil. When you see it in the Dream, however, you’re seeing some sort of magical reflection. You fight it there, but it’s not the actual creature in the Dream. This doesn’t mean it’s any less dangerous there.”

biggs.4702:

If you choose the White Stag as your dream vision as a sylvari, Caithe displays some rather ruthless behavior that would give anyone pause, but doubly so in light of later events. -snip a bit-

There may be other examples of this kind of behavior from Caithe, but I haven’t played enough sylvari personal stories to have seen it.

Caithe’s ruthlessness is limited to just the Nightmare Court (and dragon minions), and this is tied in – and explained in depth during Twilight Arbor story – to how Faolain is her lover and Caithe lost Faolain to the Nightmare. She despises the Nightmare and the Nightmare Court immensely for taking her love from her. She shows even more hatred towards Cadeyrn in TA story. This ruthlessness is shown in other storylines as well with Caithe and the Nightmare Court, though it’s most evident in White Stag – Shield of the Moon emphasizes more of Caithe’s sympathizing with Tiachern over losing a love to the Nightmare Court, though.

Caithe is adamant about the belief – which Tiachern can confirm if you aid him instead of aiding Caithe during the Shield of the Moon storyline – that the Nightmare Court cannot return to how they once were, before being tainted by the Nightmare. This is why she’s so ruthless to them alongside her losing her love to them. Not only did the Nightmare Court corrupt her lover, but they themselves are irredeemable – not as morals go, but as a matter of fact. You may imprison and interrogate, but you cannot save them. Killing may sound cold-blooded, but knowing that they’re little better than sentient dragon minions… it’s rather not.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Krait got it from the Deep and it could counter Zhaitan’s power. Could it be a piece of the Deep Sea Dragon, we saw there is some blade made by Jormag’s blood. There are also arts of Zhaitan’s minions fighting sea monsters. They might be DSD’s minions

The sea monsters are more likely just random monsters meant to be in the Sea of Sorrows, rather than dragon minions, and such holds no relation to the Blue Orb aka Krait Orb aka Water Orb.

The theory that the orb could be tied to the DSD’s power is an old speculation, but one that holds no true support nor any strong standing. But at the same time, there’s no means to disprove such a theory. In the end, it is at a standstill.

I doubt it is part of the dragon itself, however, as all it needs is to contain its power – corruptive or no.

Rukh.9287:

because dragons aren’t supposed to naturally be able to corrupt other dragons

So sayeth… absolutely nothing. And yet people continue to spout this as if it were undeniable fact.

Plot Twist: it was us. He can see into our very minds because of our little vision with Omadd’s Machine, and we’ll be told that we cannot participate in the final battle with Mordremoth once we find out. So he’ll be dying off screen. Because Anet just can’t make that fight epic enough to play through.

A slightly more serious tone: It’ll likely be Random Sylvari We Barely Knew #24601 who did not show up at all during the summit.

The only thing tied to human royal line being that they are to be protectors of the Bloodstones (per History of Tyria), their blood is required to unlock the Bloodstones’ full potential (per History of Tyria), a true heir of Ascalon needed to end the Foefire (per The Movement of the World), and… that’s all, really.

The only magical ties that Doric’s line is tied to is the Bloodstones, no “lie detection capabilities” amongst them.

It’s not surprising a lot of human nobles gear towards mesmerism, since it has been – since prophecies – presented as the more ‘elegant’ profession and whatnot. Throughout GW1, most nobles were either warriors, mesmers, ritualists (Cantha only) or without a profession, and most actors were warriors, mesmers, or without a profession. So that’s no surprise.

I see no reason to believe an ability that must be unlocked via Ascension – an art that requires travel to the heart of the Crystal Desert – has anything to do with telling whether someone is lying or not.

In fact, the whole Kasmeer-able-to-see-lies is presented in a very, VERY mundane, completely not-magical way… but presented as magical out of game.

Arghore.8340:

Ok, so there are 11 fixed locations for working Asuran gates, most of which are in capitals, and even though there may be more in said capital, I consider them to be on the same ley line ‘node’. Unless of course you know of more Asuran gates then the ones I mapped out, in which case I would love to know about them…

Asura gates are not fixed in their destinations. They can be recalibrated to any other gate – they’re not in-game simply for mechanical purposes with how zone portal barriers work (can only have a single destination). Lorewise, the DR gates can and are redirected to LA, Ebonhawke, Rata Sum, The Grove, and Hoelbrak (Black Citadel clearly excluded due to hostility); as such, the respective situation must occur to (that the Grove gate must be retuneable to Divinity’s Reach, for example). Similarly, as I said, we know that Hoelbrak’s gate can be retuned to go to Rata Sum directly (thus it can go to three known locations: DR, Rata Sum, and LA). The limitations we players see is purely mechanic – just like how asura gate travel is free for us, but costs money in lore to use them. Ebonhawke’s gate can also be retuned to go straight to Lion’s Arch – if not elsewhere.

The entire point of the Black Citadel gate being on a suspended bridge rigged with explosives is because the gates can be retuned anywhere, and as such the charr can never be fully certain – as they rely on the asura gatekeeper’s word – where the gate leads to, or if an army will begin pouring through that gate (an army couldn’t do such through the free city of Lion’s Arch).

So by your theory, you’d need a direct ley line from DR to each of those locations, and from Hoelbrak to each as well.

Arghore.8340:

- On door of Komalie
You may want to differ in what powers the portal and what keeps it shut ?!!? … from what I got from that lore from GW1 is that the Door of Komalie was an actual naturally occurring portal (or possibly one that Abaddon tried to open from the realm of torment, similar to the portals used to release the Titans), and the soul batteries were used to keep that door shut…

Now true, if it turns out that portals can just be made to go everywhere, and do not specifically need ley lines to function or an end portal (which from my point of view isn’t whats being conveyed in GW2, although way points and portals may still be different from each other), then indeed, there is no distinct reason to assume that the Door of Komalie was using ley line energy to be formed… it was keeping it shut that used the bloodstone/soul combination though…

The Door of Komalie isn’t the portal – as far as we know – but the structures around it. Hence “opening the door” and all. The Door itself is powered by souls within Soul Batteries, which are transferred into such via Bloodstones.

The portal itself appears to be a rip in time and space, and seems to be open indefinitely by its own accord. There’s no real proof for this or if it even is powered (and if so by what). Just like in Godslost Swamp, though, it seems that if you make a big enough tear between the barriers of Tyria and the Mists, you cannot (easily?) repair it – only block it (the purpose of the Door).

MRA.4758:

(edit:) Am I really the only one who would be way more intrigued by learning more about the Seers?

No. Most folks interested in the mursaat are equally so interested in the Seers, since their histories are so intriquately tied together.

It should be noted, Mickey, that not all Nightmare Hounds start as Nightmare Pups; Nightmare Pups are just Sylvan Pups that got turned to Nightmare – partially, rather. All you can do for the pups is slow the Nightmare’s influence over them. Though tbh, they never made much sense.

Nightmare Courtiers are born as standard Dreamers – sometimes they may awake with the desire to join the Nightmare, but they’re still born Dreamers. They are NOT Mordrem beforehand, and they do not use Mordrem to convert (we see their corruption methods in Twilight Assault story mode, as well as select other locations).

Faolain being a risen makes no sense seeing how sylvari die when touched by most dragon corruption – Mordremoth’s corruption has shown to be unique, and this is said by the Pale Tree to be because his corruption is stronger.

We’ve seen “normal sylvari” become corrupted and they turned into what you seem to be calling “Mordrem sylvari” – mainly, “Tiachern”: in the sylvari personal storyline. If you choose to defend Astorea rather than join him in attempting to bring Ysvelta back once more, he’ll fall to Nightmare and to quote him:

“Let us celebrate our union with fire and blood. We’ll make the Pale Tree gorge herself upon the pain of these dreamers!”

This is from before he turns to the Nightmare:

“She is everything to me. We Dreamed of one another, and when our hands first touched, I knew I existed only to bring her joy.”

“You were both astonishingly brave. You risked your lives, just to help me save Ysvelta. I’m in your debt.”

And this is from the other story option, if you go with him to see Ysvelta and try to convince her (before he comes to the conclusion there is no return from the Nightmare):

“The tablet guides us. It bears wisdom, but encourages each sylvari to decide their own path. It’s not evil, and neither is the Mother Tree. You’ve been deceived.”

And this is before he turned to Nightmare, while pretending to be someone mean:

“Watch out! We’re dangerous folk. Very dangerous, indeed. We are tremendously vicious and cruel. Wouldn’t you say so?”

It becomes plainly clear that the Nightmare is what makes them insane. Especially in Tiachern’s case.

RoyalPredator.9163:

It actualy brings the Lore alive, and not making fun of it.

You’re going to have to point to me where this occurred. I didn’t see it. In fact, I saw the opposite.

RoyalPredator.9163:

We meet nice people to have real conversations,

Again, you’ll have to point this out to me. I didn’t see it.

RoyalPredator.9163:

finally we’re not destroying the game maps even more
and we can do a unique bossfight instead!

This, I can surprisingly agree with.

The definitions thus far given to the ley line network is that it is, solely, underground. There’s no reason to believe they’d suddenly run through the air or water, given that the ley lines are the “paths of least resistance” for magic to move through – if they went through the air, there’d be no resistance for magical movement (unless there’s some invisible magnetic field-like effect we have absolutely zero indication, implication, or knowledge of) and thus the magic would simply seep throughout the world – same with going through the ocean.

While it is true they’d be moving in three dimensions, I do not think they breach the surface (of the ground). If they do, I suspect effects similar to what we see at Thaumanova’s center – a pillar of light, and the enlarged immediate area being soaked in magical “radiation”. Incidentally enough, Ascalon City has a similar effect thanks to the Foefire, though the pillar of light there is supposedly taking the shape of a giant flaming sword per Ghosts of Ascalon (though I don’t think this is how it appears in-game).

Arghore.8340:

I saw I didn’t addres your question ‘why do you say ’zhaitan’ crystals’, well, that is because of the reward for the explorable dungeon. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shard_of_Zhaitan … and all the other ‘shards’ http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shard being largely crystalline. Now if you check my map I made an icon for them with a ? in them. So it’s more of a ‘hey look it is almost implied through ’shard of zhaitan’, that he turned to crystal (or part of him anyways)‘, just like happened to Glint (although being a minion of the Crystal dragon, does make it possible her’s had another reason).

The only crystal tied to Zhaitan is the Dragon Crystal which is no different than any other arcane crystal except that it is full of Zhaitan’s corruption (arguably, the Bloodstone shards recovered during Arah Seer path is the same). The Shards of Zhaitan don’t appear or seem in any manner to be crystalline to me, and the term “shard” can be used to mean a scale in zoologoy (source) which I think is the definition being used here. E.g., “Shard of Zhaitan” is just a better way of saying “Scale of Zhaitan” or “Piece of Zhaitan’s Skin.”

Glint is crystalline because she was a minion of Kralkatorrik and no more – same for all other Branded.

Arghore.8340:

Still though, the waypoints are said to function ‘better’ when near ley lines, and as far as I know functioning of them has nothing to do with ‘powering’ them? (btw. this came from one of your earlier responses) Or at least, it be nice to know where you drew the conclusion that they use ley line power? I only picked up they ‘functioned’ better … aka. the portal has less ‘side effects’, so is more ‘stable’ and offers more ‘frequent portal’ activity. Nothing really alluded me to assume they use ambient magic to ‘power’ them.

The source for the knowledge of being powered by ley lines is this. To quote the line in question:

“Some waypoints gradually fail over time, while others thrive. Current theories tie the failing waypoints to terrain that hinders the flow of energies.”

And then backed by Taimi’s commentary in Discovering Scarlet’s Breakthrough and following Taimi-related instances (The Waypoint Conundrum and Recalibrating the Waypoints ) and how Mordremoth was attacking waypoints.

There are many particular lines, but there’s one that just downright proves that waypoints are powered by ley lines (journal entry for Recalibrating the Waypoints):

Taimi’s Waypoint Recalibration Device was successful in retuning the waypoints, making them more efficient by using less ley line magic to operate.

Waypoints use ley line magic to operate; the failure of a waypoint is caused by a lack of ley line magic flow.

Arghore.8340:

Because in that case, what powers the random placed portals?

They likely have power sources at the source of the teleportation device (the gun in asura Synergetics, etc.).

Arghore.8340:

It’s not that like 7 portals will make that much of a difference, when we try and identify which things help and which don’t.

Seven? There’s far more in just asura gates, let alone other portal technologies/magic than just seven.

Arghore.8340:

‘->’ and while you argue that some of your ley lines going over portals to the mists (or other excisting portals) was a mere coincidence, seeing you didn’t pick those locations for their portals, but due to high ambient magic. The same ambient magic that makes waypoints function better. One could argue that it may not be such a ‘coincidence’…

Only potentially and only where such portals don’t have a known power source or situation (e.g., non asura gates).

And thinking on it more, I should remove the ley lines going to the Ring of Fire. The Door of Komalie is powered by souls and Bloodstone, and the heavy twisting magic is likely caused by the portal to the Realm of Torment. Thus no reason to believe ambient magic there.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Jormag devours flesh and replaces it with ice.

Eh… no, Jormag consumes magic from his victims. Per Edge of Destiny:

“Over the next hundred fifty years, the voice seduced more norn, and they joined the cult, becoming the Sons of Svanir. They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.” Page 221 about Svanir/Jora, the forming of the Sons of Svanir, and Jormag’s rise.

Jormag’s corruption takes the physical appearance of slowly covering the body in ice, and turning said body into ice (until there’s just ice and bone left), but what Jormag is devouring is the magic of an individual he corrupts – same as other Elder Dragons.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Zhaitan devoured souls, the reason he never raised/used true undead.

Risen Wraiths appear spectral like; Crusader Aliyana proves that Zhaitan doesn’t consume all souls of those he corrupts as does Romke and his crew who’s risen bodies we fight during Romke’s Final Voyage. And finally we see King Reza was trapped within the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, as was the Keeper of the Shrine’s soul

Zhaitan does not consume souls. He either ignores them (in the apparent case of his grunt minions), or he imprisons them within the risen (in the apparent case of the sapient ones).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Kralkatorric seems to devour ?anything? and replaces it with crystals. Anything in the brand (even plants) was turned into crystal, except foefire ghosts. This happened while creating the brand (see Almorra Soulkeeper’s warband). Maybe the foefire ghosts share the same “immunity” like sylvari.

Anything physical got corrupted. The water shows no current case of being corrupted – not outright at least. Whether the Foefire ghosts are unique in this case, or any ghost was overlooked – the latter more likely due to the presence of Rashenna’s spirit (who’s appearance has unknown triggers) – is really unknown. They can’t have the same “immunity” like the sylvari as the sylvari die when touched by corruption and per the Pale Tree’s dialogue to sylvari players during Rallying Call it seems like the Pale Tree is giving that immunity to all dragon corruption (though those in favor of the sylvari=Mordremoth minions interpret this, oddly imo, to be that she’s only preventing Mordremoth’s corruption despite the general usage of dragon corruption).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Sadly even this is limited, because there are some small areas in which the ghost should still exist (I don’t know a possibility to finally destroy them), but they are simply not there (which is either design oversight or planned).

What such areas?

Zaxares.5419:

But are those TRUE conversations? Or simply magical constructs repeating a message over and over like a record? For example, you can meet the ghost of Captain Calhaan who recites the exact same words he says to the PC back in the Great Northern Wall mission, and the person he’s talking to also says the exact same line the PC said. Since our GW1 PC’s most likely did not die in the Foefire, how did the ghost Calhaan’s talking to know what to say? That made me think that the secondary ghost, and possibly even Calhaan himself, are simply like a holographic recording replaying a momentous scene taken from Calhaan’s memories when he died in the Foefire.

The case with Calhaan has always felt like a thorn jabbed into the side of GW1 players, like those two Watchmen spirits were meant to replace the Prophecies hero(es).

A lot of ghosts talk as if they’re on the day of the Searing, or the day of the second Charr Invasion (much like Calhaan) or appear near their tombs (such as Ralena and Vasaar). This has led me to believe that the Foefire not only entrapped the souls of the living, but the souls of the dead in Ascalon too. The many Restless Spirits and Spirits of the Fallen we saw throughout Ascalon in GW1. Savione from Ghosts of Ascalon severely hinders this – as does Rashenna and Watchman Pramas – but all the others do seem affected. Kind of reminds me of the Prophecies manual lore on souls:

“When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift.”

There’s an immense similarity between how the Pale Tree describes Mordremoth corrupting sylvari (through “cracks in the will”) and how the Nightmare Court forcibly turns converts (torturing them until they give in to the Nightmare, thus through cracks in their willpower).

Others missed:

Tonn, Tegwen, Agent Zott, Tactician Sam Beirne, Syksa, and dozens of unnamed Vigil, Priory, and Whisper members.

I don’t think it’d be a good idea to try to lure an Elder Dragon to the middle of Ascalon – I doubt the charr would like that, and I doubt that such a thing would be an easy undertaking. And you can’t do the flip – take the Foefire ghosts to an Elder Dragon – because they relive the same day over and over, so presumably they’d just return to Ascalon, not be capable of being pulled out (otherwise, I think the charr would have done such already).

On the other hand, Jormag has devoured Owl Spirit, possibly Eagle, Ox, and Wolverine Spirits too, and tried via proxy to do the same to Minotaur Spirit – and has an interest in the Mists which is home to spirits. Something tells me using spirits against him… isn’t a good idea.

And Zhaitan was capable of enslaving a few ghosts (see: King Reza), so I doubt ghosts would have worked well against him.

Non-Foefire ghosts appear to be as vulnerable as anything else. Foefire magic does seem especially potent against the Elder Dragons – Ghostfire bombs and Ghostbore Muskets that’re powered by them are used in Orr were far more powerful against Risen/Zhaitan’s corruption than anything else seen, and the ghosts appear to be the one thing not corrupted by Kralkatorrik. And if you take this implication a step further, the Mysterious Seed was given Foefire essence in the first plant, which may explain its semi-docile nature. Foefire… may be a counter-agent to dragon corruption.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well according to the Zepherites EDs are like natural disasters, not inherently evil but by their nature destructive. However we’re not sure if this isn’t simply colorful language on their part however (since they’re technically like a cult… and cults sometimes think crazy thing).

That’s also the standard Tyrian view of the Elder Dragons. The Pact and Orders know differently – as we experience in the personal story. This dialogue is just part of the entire “NPCs are subjective in what they say” (that, to me, feels like it’s been slowly going down the drain since Scarlet and Taimi became the expositionists).

Now, ask yourself: if you were teaching children, would you say that these world-ending entities were evil and seeking to consume your soul, or would you say that they were akin to mindless beasts?

Most teachers/parents would do the latter, to create a false sense of security for their children.

The final form will be your character being turned into a human/norn/asura/charr version of this:

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

“Other than this evidence you just gave, there is no evidence that what you are saying is correct” is what I got from that.

Then I worded that poorly, or you misunderstood what I was saying. Let me try again:

Aside from the singular piece of evidence which is based solely off of appearance – something that has very poor standing – there is no further evidence for your previous theory. In other words, you had no strong evidence, and the only thing you had could be used to argue similarities between two other groups that are known not to hold relations (e.g., the in-universe argument of a grawl/charr connection; or how charr effigies and the Imbued Shaman from Fractals uses shared textures – because, you know, they’re on fire).

In short: your theory which you use to base this not being a retcon, was never a very well supported theory.

Tamias.7059:

Ok, I’ll humour you, why not? I’ll tell you: we know the origin of the charr effigies, and we know the origin of the Destroyers, and since there’s nothing that links either of those. We know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon (Mordrem), but we don’t know the origins of the husks. So a similarity in appearance is reason enough to consider a link between the two. What other husks are there? There’s the Evolved Husk, which is almost certainly a Mordremoth minon, and the Mordrem Husks, which are almost identical in appearance to the other husks. And that’s just the appearance; there’s several other reasons to believe that the husks are all Mrordrem.

Actually, until this update we did not know the origin of the Shadow of the Dragon, per se, but you held that theory of relation to Flametouched Husks because of the shared yellow-glow in a plant body.

You are now arguing the similarity between husks and the Shadow based on current evidence, not the evidence pre-reveal, which is what my point was about.

Furthermore, we technically do not know the origin of Flame Legion effigies aside from “flame legion magic” – now I ask you this: where does Flame Legion magic come from?

Tamias.7059:

I’m concerned that your attitude in this thread, and your complaints about Season 2 in general, stem from the fact that the direction that the story is taking is looking to disprove several of your pet theories. Your standard for what constitutes evidence is not only too high, but only seems to apply to ideas that you’re not fond of, which leads to, as someone said above, conducting “mental gymnastics” to keep your theories alive. The thing is, you’re such a prominent figure in the lore community that I think it’s possible that it’s having a toxic effect, confusing people and moving the entire consensus away from what ArenaNet are, at this point, pretty clearly trying to lead us towards. tl;dr I think we know more than you think we know.

What pet theories, might I ask, are being disproven? Because as I see it – none are, for I have so very few theories anymore. The only theory I’ve had on sylvari/Mordremoth relation is just that the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s doing, and in fact this is being proven more and more as we go on. The theory that sylvari=Mordremoth minions that I’ve been against have, in fact, been slowly becoming less likely – even with Mawdrey – based on what I’ve been seeing.

My attitude is not regarding theories – either those I favor or those that I dislike or those I am neutral for – but instead the quality of the writing itself and the company of ArenaNet as I am seeing it fall from my perspective. My attitude is caused by the poor writing, the obvious retcons, and the overall attitude of ArenaNet itself that I see. And partially caused by posts such as Ruhks – the direct personal assaults on me that make me ashamed of this community and wanting nothing to do with them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Randulf.7614:

I thought primordus minions were life created from inanimate?

We asumed he corrupts stones, but according to this interview from GuildMag Issue #9 he corrupts living beings:

-snip interview-

He corrupts inanimate stone into destroyers – this is not creation of life, so much as effectively making elementals. He can corrupt living beings, but as Jeff Grubb says in that interview, we don’t see such happen.

The Mordrem Wolves don’t seem to be corrupted, per se, but rather being controlled by a corrupted minion (the flower/vines/roots that surrounded itself in the spine and skull of the wolf).

@Jaken: The Overgrown are fighting alongside Mordrem on three occasions, so it’s safe to say they’re corrupted. Unlike the outright called Mordrem and the Overgrown in Dry Top, it seems that the Overgrown in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered are twisted Nightmare Hounds/Summoned Husks (and, like with Aerin and Scarlet, there is no physical alterations). But both Overgrown and Mordrem are minions of Mordremoth – and we have Overgrown which are identical in every way but name to Mordrem.

Since we don’t really know much about that time, it’s impossible to say, but the running theory as I’ve seen it is that the Elder Dragons are concentrated on Tyria due to the Bloodstones. During the end of the previous dragon rise, all non-corrupted magic was sealed into the original Bloodstone – so the Elder Dragons’ sole food source (except potentially the krait obelisks depending on how ancient those are) was in continental Tyria.

It should be noted that only Primordus and Kralkatorrik have a lot of influence over Tyria’s past beyond being known in dwarven and jotun legends. Zhaitan is pretty much non-existent except that he fell asleep in Arah, where it just so happened that a champion of Kralkatorrik was freed at (and Kralkatorrik not only fell asleep in the now-called Blood Legion Homelands, but had battled over the Crystal Sea). Jormag’s influence is in Drakkar in the Far Shiverpeaks and the Sanguinary Blade, and Jormag himself awoke north of continental Tyria. And Mordremoth has pretty much nothing known about him being in Tyria during the previous rise, except that he fell asleep on the western edge of continental Tyria.

Arghore.8340:

But if you were to actually go and map all the ghosts, like I did, and link the ones that can not be directly linked to the foe fire, a specific item, being ‘animal spirits’ or ‘being non human’, you are left with a very specific route going from Orr along side the coast, across LA, splitting off towards Divinity and into Hinterlands.

The only exception are the ghosts in Brisbane, which may or may not be related, seeing it’s impossible to check beyond the map if the actual phenomenon continues.

If you go and exclude all ghosts but in three locations, and then draw a line from them to an location of your choice, then of course you will have a line from said location to the three ghost locations. That doesn’t create much of a foundation to stand on.

You don’t answer: Why do you link Orr to ghosts, when Orr is ghostless? “Because Zhaitan” is not an answer, as he’s not about control over ghosts – no more than the spirit-consuming Jormag.

Arghore.8340:

Pointing at chaos magic is all fine ‘but’ from the overall story of magic there has to be a source for this magic. With which I have to point at:
1. During the last rise, all ‘free’ magic was put into the original ‘bloodstone’.
2. Any other magic was consumed by the dragons, and ‘bled out’ during their slumber.
3. Now which source is there for the Chaos magic, aka. which dragon bleeds chaos magic? Or which other source is there for chaos magic?

Chaos magic is the type of magic mesmers use. Mesmers’ magic came from the Bloodstone. Elder Dragons don’t bleed out a type of magic.

Arghore.8340:

Lastly, I also have a question:
- I saw various points put ‘off map’, where did you get those from? are these from overlaying other maps? (if so do you have a source), are these from fractals? or from GW1?

All purple points are Probes – there were two maps in Scarlet’s End instance during The Battle for Lion’s Arch which focused on Far Shiverpeaks/Blood Legion Homelands, and northern/central Kryta which showed probe locations not seen in-game.

Yellow/Orange locations are places of power, if they’re over places not seen in GW2 then they’re from GW1 lore.

Okay, okay, “potential ley line”. Same difference, really. My point – that marking all these things makes the marking of the points pointless since it becomes as unreliable as waypoints – remains unchanged.

If you don’t limit what your using to mark your parameters somehow then you’ll end up with parameters so large that you include everything. You HAVE to stop at some point, otherwise you may as well throw a paint can over the map of Tyria and claim what got colored is a ley line (which is effectively what the waypoints do).

To respond to specific points you made earlier, as I was on my phone previously:

We do not know ‘if’ waypoints also need the ley lines to transport matter over distance. Yes, the portals can be re-aligned, but as far as I know, there has to be a portal on the other side as a receiver, meaning that it’s quite possible that this receiver also has to be connected to the same ley line network. Any lack of current evidence doesn’t mean that an assumption is false.

Asura synergetics storyline, asuran weather changer storyline, Professor Portmatt’s Lab jumping puzzle, and the experimental teleporter in Crucible of Eternity (path ending with the Evolved Husk) all include asuran teleportation devices that don’t require a receiving gate. The asura gates require receiving ends due to how they’re built – and no one bothered to try to build a new means for such, until recently.

Receptors are not required for asura teleportation magitechnology.

Arghore.8340:

Also, you yourself used ‘portals to other realms’ as an indicator for high ambient magic

Actually, I didn’t. Hrangmer, Tomb of the Primeval Kings, etc. I didn’t count. I counted the Door of Komalie solely because it is said that Abaddon’s Mouth was highly magical – there doesn’t need to be a tie, though it certainly can be that there is one (in which case, there’d be no ley line going to the Ring of Fire outright). Godslost Swamp having portals to the Underworld is outright known to be due to our own actions in GW1 – no ambient magic involved. I included it because of the temple itself being the oldest temple for Grenth in all of Kryta. Then the stone circle in Varajar Fells is also said to be a place of powerful ambient magic – I didn’t include it due to the veil to the Mists being weak there. Drascir I included because of it being a capital (could have been built over a place of power like Lion’s Arch and Arah) and because of the magical school.

In other words, any placement of a portal to the Mists being over a ley line was pure coincidence.

Arghore.8340:

if you plot the creatures though, as in where they exist in the open world, I myself agree somewhat with Psynch that it is rather an unlikely coincidence that these lie on roughly the same route that Mordremoth is taking now, and you yourself say this route is the route of a ley line, only you use the cavern system as a hint for it. Now seeing my opening statement, I wont be throwing a “well we know there are tons of underground cavern systems underneath Tyria, so there is no reason to assume Mordremoth has to follow the ley line one”, as that leads this exercise nowhere.

The underground cavern systems is – according to Scarlet – due to the ley lines. A lot of the creatures in Thaumanova come from places that could be near the vines… or completely elsewhere. They’re that wide-spanning, and considering how much ground the vines cover… it’s not surprising in the least that such an overlap would occur.

Arghore.8340:

Yes, the ascalonian ghosts are different from other ghosts, but they ‘were’ caused by an Orrian artefact, and Orr happens to be the location where Zaithan has been bleeding his undeath magic for 9000y prior to humans settling there… so there is a likely connection there.

Except that magic from the Elder Dragons while they’re hibernating has no known affiliation with types. It’s just like the ley line magic, or ambient magic – typeless, raw, magic.

If this wasn’t so, then there wouldn’t even be raw magic.

I wasn’t lashing out. My entire post was basically that of saying:

You are taking anything that is semi-magical, even with known origins or power, and saying “ley line!” That results in a mapped out series of points that is less helpful than the waypoints, and you may as well call it a ley ocean. And it’s even worse storytelling than what we currently have in the game.

Rukh.9287:

Wow Konig, if you think that’s people “insulting” you, you might not want to visit any other part of the internet > . > I’m sure you weren’t just playing the victim card to get support, you’re above that.

If laughing at someone, calling it mental gymnastics, and the like all of which you did is not insulting for you, then you’re unfeeling. It’s got nothing to do with how others act, just how you yourself acted. Just because there are worse people than you out there doesn’t mean you can’t be mean too. And it was particularly infuriating to me since it is obvious you didn’t even bother to look up the tutorial lore when claiming I was wrong about it.

As for what the tree says, She says "You have fought an Elder Dragon face to face. We know for certain what we fought is not an elder dragon. She never states its a minion of Zhaitan. She states she “believes” you are destined to fight Zhaitan based on you having fought an elder dragon in the dream. Again, not a minion of Zhaitan, an elder dragon. What the Pale Tree “lying” as Konig states? I don’t think she was lying. If it is canon, she’s simply wrong. As she says, she doens’t control The Dream, she’s just its caretaker.

She wasn’t saying we fought an Elder Dragon, but a representation of an Elder Dragon (Zhaitan). No one ever said that the Shadow was a minion of Zhaitan but a representation of Zhaitan, that based its looks somewhat off of Zhaitan’s dragons.

And I didn’t say the Pale Tree was lying. I said – sarcastically to be specific – that unless the Pale Tree, Caithe, and Serimon were lying, then knowing the topic of which they speak, thus having no reason to be mistaken, there was some kind of retcon.

Tamias.7059:

As an aside, I don’t think it was ever said that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to kill Zhaitan. We’re told that Caithe’s is, and that Trahearne’s is to cleanse Orr, but all the dialogue is worded such that it is possible that the player’s Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragons in general, not just one specific one. If the Shadow of the Dragon had truly been a representation of the player’s Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, it would have been a Risen.

Erm, the Pale Tree explicitly states that the PC will confront Zhaitan. She makes no generalities.

And despite your theory, other than shared textures of plant creatures, other than the Nightmare giving the Shadow form, there was no support or reason to believe it but several NPCs’ words against it. Just because it got retconned in your favor, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a retcon.

Of course by your original reasoning of texture similarities I’m surprised you haven’t gone to say that the charr effigies use Primordus’ power, since it’s fire/heat textures are like the destroyers and Imbued Shaman.

Arghore.8340:

Reaction to your second post, right up on this page, I would like to refer to the ‘speculation’ ones I made, there are various lines (that you drew) that show a high correlation with ones that I did, mainly the ones related to ghosts appearing. Those do extend further up north though, perhaps giving you that extra line crossing LA, and connecting Divinity’s reach to the network, which at that point connects all known portals to what you drew

I do not think there is a ley line under Divinity’s Reach. Nothing hints to such.

The ghosts appear where there were concentrations of humans in life (for Foefire) or in graveyards. There is no ley line under Demetra, Aurora’s Remains, the pirate ghost JP in Harathi, or even half of the Foefire locations (such as the Decimus Stones, Rebel’s Seclusion, Grendich Courtyard, Oldgate, Langmar’s Estate, etc.). You over-exaggerate.

Furthermore, no ley line over the Crystal Desert portal to the Desolation, or the various other portals throughout the Crystal Desert; nor to the two mursaat portals in the Southern Shiverpeaks, nor Hoelbrak; nor Boreal Station (in Eye of the North). Nor Hrangmer (aka Citadel of Flame), for that matter.

Arghore.8340:

This is why f/e the ‘human ghost’ appearances seem to have a decent correlation with originating in Orr, flowing north, as being a river fuelled by Zhaitan. Which in turn might also explain the effect of the Foe Fire as it is related to an Orrian Artefact…

Then explain to me the human ghosts in Cantha, Elona, Maguuma Jungle, Crystal Desert… none of them are tied to Orr in any way. Zhaitan isn’t tied to ghosts, though he’s known to be capable of enslaving souls, anymore than Jormag is (who devours spirits).

Foefire ghosts are unique, and there are thousands of ghosts throughout GW1 that had no correltation to ambient magic nor magical artifacts. They remained in Tyria – when not enslaved by necromancy or called by ritualists – due to either not realizing they died, or by having too strong a tie to Tyria.

Arghore.8340:

In the same way, while not directly linked to the crystals that Kralkatorrik produces, the effects that happen in the Reactor, and all along the line that Mordi seems to somewhat follow, do strike as an effect that has a ‘kralki’ feel to it somehow. Well that would make sense if the ‘ley lines’ that these effects take place on, would be related to where Kralki rested, and how his magic bled into the world…

I fail to see any “Kralkatorrik” feel to… well, anything related to the lines Mordremoth followed.

Especially since Kralkatorrik is NOT tied to chaos magic (remember, the Thaumanova reactor was a mixture of chaos and dragon magic just before it exploded), despite common misconception thanks to Scarlet Briar in the Thaumanova Fractal.

Arghore.8340:

While I am to tired atm to actively discuss this, I will say that the waypoints have been directly related to the ley lines by the whole story, the portals pretty much function the same way, as far as teleporting goes, but are based on a much older technology (aka. they were around in EotN times, and even than they were already ‘old’), so I find it fairly safe to assume they would be even more in need of ley line support to function…

The problem with this is that it is in the functionality that ties waypoints to ley lines, but power source; and asura gates have a different power source.

Waypoints utilize ambient magic – thus ley lines – for power; while asura gates use power crystals (or so it is extremely heavily implied), much like golems. This allows asura gates to be placed wherever, while waypoints are a hit-or-miss in their placement/functioning set-up.

So there’s no reason to believe that asura gates utilize ley lines just due to shared function, as that’s not where the ley lines are utilized by waypoints.

Arghore.8340:

But whether or not they based on fact wasn’t the real reason to include them, it was that they are a likely candidate, similar to ghosts, or the identifiable creatures spawning in the reactor, or w/e. To see if they correspond to anything that could be called a ley line…

Ghosts form due to an immense tie to the world – or powerful spells, such as the Foefire’s case. There is no reason to tie ley lines to that.

The creatures in Thaumanova are teleported there by chaos magic, and has no hints to being tied to ley lines.

Arghore.8340:

-snip rest of first post-

You’re talking only about non-natural magical artifacts, and there’s no reason to believe ley lines, which result in ambient magic (read; magic in the ground, air, and/or water) are tied to such. Be it crystals, dragon body parts (where do you get that Zhaitan’s blood crystallizes? That’s Kralkatorrik!), portals to the Underworld, etc.

Arghore.8340:

Not ‘fueling’ the portals, but using the ley lines as a medium to transport matter from one place to another.

And yet there’s no reason to believe such, because asura gates can be retuned to go anywhere – though with significant power to be used (though the gates in the cities are stable and go to a single location in-game, they in-fact can go to multiple places; per the gatekeeper’s dialogue in DR, the Upper City asura gate can and does connect to Lion’s Arch, The Grove, Rata Sum, and Hoelbrak; in Ghosts of Ascalon we have the Rurikton gate – now permanently connected to Ebonhawke in lore – switching between Ebonhawke and Lion’s Arch, and the LA one got attuned to Ebonhawke via bribery; in Edge of Destiny, the Hoelbrak asura gate got tuned to Rata Sum. Twice.).

There really is no reason to believe that the ley lines are how people teleport across the world. Would it mean that the mesmer skills of Blink and Portal always fall on top of a ley line?

Waypoints are powered by ley lines, other teleportation devices – when we know what powers them – are not. No correlation should be assumed.

Arghore.8340:

So I since we know so little I basically think that mapping any ‘non Omni present’ things that might be related to ley lines a good way to see if they were to make sense, and if not dismiss them based on the total emerging picture. Hence the skill points make a very good candidate… but if you could argue a decently strong case for moths to be drawn to ley lines, like they are to candles IRL, then I would argue to map them and see if they ‘shed some light’ on the situation … hope you get my p.o.v. on this matter

And such things result in the utterly chaotic mess of your map that lists everything magical ever as a possibility, which gives absolutely zero hint as to the possibility of where ley lines may be and are about as helpful as the waypoints themselves.

I doubt that, as that NPC has been there since the Tower of Nightmares fell back in December. “very soon” is a long time in such a case, and it sounds more like just Consortium/asuran egotisticalness.

I expect we’ll have larger variety of mobs in the second half of Season 2. Just like how in the first half of the personal story we had pretty much just Risen Thralls, Brutes, Grubs, and Abominations to act as our enemies, getting Risen Hyleks, Pirates , Krait, Quaggan and a few others as common mobs at the halfway point, then getting all our coral-infested friends, Drakes, Knights, Giants, etc. as common foes when we struck Orr.

First episode was the “Thrall, Brutes, Grubs, Abomination” phase; 2-4 was the “Hylek, Krait, Quaggan, Pirates” part; second half should include a larger variety.

If not, I shall be disappoint.

DanteZero.9736:

That’s true, the bloodstones themselves are massive rocks that are almost the size of buildings. The keystone, the stone needed to unite the shattered bloodstones, however, is much smaller. If I remember correctly, it was small enough to be carried by human hands.

You’re going to have to provide a source for that, because I don’t recall any such thing being said that any bloodstone – beyond small chips and shards – were small enough to be held by humans.

The Maguuma Wastes is all sandy now, as shown by Dry Top.