Bioluminescence is not magic. Elder Dragons consume magic, not “energy.”
Even if it were magical, it would have to be drained on a per individual basis.
I don’t think the Pale Tree is the biggest ley line hub in Tyria. It could be a hub, but unlikely to be the hub. Reason being is that it was the Artesian Waters that had such a huge amount of magic as to draw the Six Gods to the world – you’d think that the biggest ley line hub would do that.
We know of three hubs currently: Cavern of Shining Lights, Thaumanova Reactor, and Lion’s Arch (the latter being the biggest and all three share a single major ley line). The Artesian Waters is a good bet for another hub, perhaps even bigger than LA.
The glow of the plants in the Grove and the sylvari is merely bioluminescence. Nothing magic, purely biological and happens in reality.
I know this is a joke thread, but dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragons.
We don’t see risen dredge, skritt, etc. because Anet kept a limit on the models, presumably.
I don’t think the centaurs were around during the last dragon rise. Supposedly only five sapient races survived then (jotun, Seers, mursaat, Forgotten, dwarves).
If I were an employee, I’d be secretly altering old content to make them actually enjoyable and not overly simple thanks to power creeps.
And I’d have been pointing out all the loop holes.
Though I don’t think I predicted that the day of the trailer… don’t think I even logged on that day. And what I said about being put on the bus was any Destiny’s Edge character – with Zojja being the most likely case. Rytlock failing the ritual was rather obvious, for mechanical and design reasons.
Yes, and if you read it, she’ll state – as I quoted above:
Well, my child, the one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
→What do you mean, Mother?
There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
→You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
She says she’s standing between sylvari and “the greatest darkness” and when asked if she means dragon corruption, she confirms. The dialogue outright states she’s preventing dragon corruption in a general sense, and that Mordremoth is the one Elder Dragon (that the Pale Tree has encountered/knows about) that she cannot fully prevent corruption from.
The Pale Tree doesn’t say that sylvari are naturally immune. She outright states that she shields them from a darkness, and the PC asks if she means Dragon corruption and the Pale Tree says yes but Mordremoth is too strong for her to completely prevent.
And technically speaking, Zhaitan did attack Ascalon – though in far less quantity than Mordremoth – as we see in both the charr level 20-30 storyline that starts with Graveyard Ornaments and later on during Fixing the Blame. And the first one was before he assaulted Claw Island (during such time, he also laid assaults via Kellach, Mazdak the Accursed, and Necromancer Ressa (the last tied to the assaults on Ascalon, as well as the Shiverpeaks) on Kryta).
Personal Story and Season 2 are playable still – though you have to purchase previous updates for 200 gems each. Except for a couple open-world changes that aren’t major to the plot (yet).
Season 1 was pretty much all temporary except for one of the two aftermath updates (one for Tower of Nightmares and one for Lion’s Arch; the former is what’s still fully available), however ArenaNet has stated the intent to at some point make it permanent (though without great improvement, you should probably just stick to summaries as they’ll make the story actually sound halfway decent).
Here’s a decent review for Season 1. Though it avoided holidays and The Lost Shores (the first update of Season 1 when excluding holidays).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Why have we not seen Soundless Risen, Icebrood, or Branded if the Pale Tree’s protection was removed or subdued.
Because there is no corruptive entities near them (the closest is Risen, but even then we don’t see the two interact), and despite common belief there is still a connection to the Pale Tree that the Soundless have, as per this interview:
If the Pale Tree needed to speak to a Soundless sylvari, she could, but it would take more effort on her part than it would to speak to a regular sylvari.
So a connection still exists, it’s just weaker. And Soundless can become Nightmare Courtiers, too, it should be noted.
It mentions nothing to seeing the destruction of the Elder Dragons. This is a player’s unique perspective and a ticket to get them into the game. Likewise, where I may support a particular proposition, so too might others. That doesn’t mean the destruction of EDs is universal to all Wyld Hunts. Hence my point, those very same situations you cite are unique and subjective, we don’t get a full on resume of each individual Sylvari within a group aiding us in destroying Zhaitan.
Not all Wyld Hunts are dealing with the Elder Dragons, but there are Wyld Hunts dealing with each Elder Dragon. I fail to see the point you were trying to make.
Mordremoth’s corruption is specifically being pointed out just as how we learned that in Episode 1, she was corrupted by Mordremoth where as in the conclusion of Season 1 people were convinced this wasn’t the case. It’s right there, blatantly.
The Pale Tree is never said to have been corrupted by Mordremoth – and Episode 1 doesn’t hint to anyone but Aerin being corrupted, and even then it wasn’t confirmed just heavily implied.
Episode 2 also didn’t show any case of confirmed corruption of the Pale Tree by Mordremoth – nothing points the central orb to being the Pale Tree except Scarlet’s interpretation of the vision and as the Pale Tree tells non-sylvari players, what we players see is but Scarlet’s vision and that she’s the barrier not the center.
You’re applying every Elder Dragon to him, I’m saying there would be no need to mention its name so directly if it was so simple, “I protect you from all Elder Dragons.” And then lead into a conversation about how Mordremoth is a threat based on its currently aggressive behavior. Again, this is a blind shot in the dark made by you with no evidence, just speculation. None of the sources provided Pre-Season 2 mentioned any specifics as to the why, you’re inferring erroneously that it’s because of the Pale Tree. When you meet her as a Sylvari, she practically spells it out for you in detail.
You don’t seem to understand I AM NOT USING THAT CONVERSATION FOR THE SOURCE THAT THE PALE TREE PROTECTS SYLVARI FROM THE OTHER ELDER DRAGONS. Bolded so that maybe you’ll read it this time?
However, despite this, you seem to fail to realize is that the Pale Tree does begin talking in regards general dragon corruption:
Well, my child, the one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
->What do you mean, Mother?
There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
->You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
_*Yes. In the past, my children have been immune.* But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
She doesn’t say at that she’s protecting sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption, but dragon corruption. From a “darkness” that intends to consume all (exactly what all Elder Dragons do). And she is in fact saying that Mordremoths’ corruption is the one Elder Dragon corruption that she cannot fully protect against.
I am not making assumptions out of anything, you’re just ignoring where I’m getting my support!
She uses the concept of Zhaitan’s corruption on everyone else as an analogy towards how Mordremoth is a threat to the Sylvari. This I feel is a significant point being made in such a subtle way. You can’t pick and choose what commentary to take literally or figuratively based on your belief, or lack there of, a theory; logical fallacies get us nowhere.
Humorously, I could say the same about you since you’re picking and chosing commentary by taking only partial of the whole conversation.
Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.
Pretty much speaks for itself and doesn’t refer to any protection, just that a Sylvari cannot be resurrected after death. This may have nothing at all to do with protection from the Pale Tree, rather the literal sense that a Sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated.
There is no reason why a sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated, and you ignored the second source. Allow me to quote:
While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.
And to pull from the rest of the conversation with Tegwen:
Marshal Trahearne himself had the initial idea. Once he realized that Zhaitan can’t raise sylvari, he formed this squad to exploit that weakness.
->Why doesn’t Zhaitan’s magic work on sylvari?
Unknown at present, but the Pact’s top minds are working on it. If you ask me, we’re just too new to Tyria. The Elder Dragons haven’t figured us out yet.
Specifically mentioning Zhaitan’s corruption not working on sylvari.
Again, it seems that you’re picking and choosing your “commentary”.
That’s purely speculative, and if it were how you say then explain Palawa Joko – whom is no different than Khilbron except by appearance, nationality, and age – having an army of undead.
Khilbron actually commanding the undead shows that he ruled them, and he rose spirits and undead at a single time (Sanctum Cay and Thunderhead Keep missions)- though claiming it to be the power of the Scepter of Orr, there’s no reason to believe such claims as he was faking his identity.
NOTHING says that the Cataclysm turned Khilbron. To say it did is pure supposition.
Oops, sorry, my bad. I obviously missed that completely. Thanks for the correction.
So the Flame Legion is currently in total disarray, with no leadership at all?
With Imperator Gaheron’s death the Flame Legion fell into civil war. The entire explorable version of CoF is based on this premise, and three powers had a good chance of taking charge – the three targets (a Tribune, a shaman and his effigy weapon, and Gaheron’s resurrection). With those strongest being wiped out, we didn’t quite know what happened to the Flame Legion leadership. Presumably still under civil war and one group became part of the Molten Alliance.
I agree that the Pale Tree would be a prime target, but maybe also the most difficult one to take down. Because of the two very important questions you raise I actually have another tinfoil hat theory: The whole summit is just a distraction for the player. (I mean a purposeful distraction by ANets writers, not in-game!) The true target is Faolain! The Nightmare Court is already established as general bad guys, but they are not actual minions of any dragon. However, the followers of Mordremoth (Aerin’s letter makes me believe there are more than just one) could scheme a bloody coup to take over the Court for their cause.
Hence, the current Nightmare Court leader would have to die. Then the rest will fall in line.
~MRA
With the current quality of the primary plot-telling under the Living World team, I don’t think we’ll be getting such ‘elaborate’ twists.
I never said the Artesian Waters had anything to do with undead. I said that most of Orr’s magic comes from the Artesian Waters. You are – without support – attaching the undead controlled by Khilbron to the magic of Orr, it seems.
And the undead in gw1 didn’t show up “quickly” but over the full coarse if a year. 360 days is long enough to change thousands into undead if you change 3 or more corpses a day. And we actually don’t know Khilbron was changed by that event. We don’t know when or how he became a loch and there is in fact evidence to say that he was around and with powerful necromancy during King Zoran’s (Reza’s father) reign. That, or there we’re multiple powerful corrupt (politically speaking) necromancer viziers in order. Said evidence comes from GW1’s dungeon, Shards of Orr.
Tribune Burntclaw is dead, we kill him at the end of the least popular (but best end boss) CoF path.
The questions that should be asked are:
The first I would say Trahearne and the Pale Tree are prime candidates – the former leads an anti-ED group, the latter is blocking his corruption. The second I only see as the Pale Tree, as she is blocking his corruption – the Pale Tree dies and he can corrupt the sylvari race thus they will ‘fall in line.’
The title reminded me of those problem solving Math questions…
“If 6 Elder Dragons awoke at the same time, and each Elder Dragon consumes 3 civilizations each century, how many centuries will past before 25 civilizations are consumed?”
They surely were going to use it otherwise they would not have built the city on it, it also might be the reason why the Cataclysm was so powerful, it was able to kill everyone of both sides, sink a continent and turn a lot of people into undead. if Zhaitan’s power was not used, why did they become undead?
Keep in mind that there was more than just Zhaitan’s power in the lands of Orr (The Artesian Waters) which were far stronger than Zhaitan’s power (it was the Artesian Waters that drew the Six Gods to the world of Tyria), and that while Elder Dragons sleep they radiate magic thus no longer making it “their” power.
Undead and risen are not the same thing, by the way, and not all undead come from Zhaitan’s power. The Cataclysm is said to have no effect on Zhaitan, so why would it be Zhaitan’s power that made the non-fanatic-to-Zhaitan undead? Hell, we have nothing to actually say the Cataclysm made those undead, for all we know Khilbron went by one-by-one during the course of a year to create those undead himself.
Do you really want to believe that a catastrophic event that sinks an entire peninsula/island affected Zhaitan in no way at all? First of all, he sank with said place to the bottom of the sea… that’s quite the effect.
It really depends on what the Cataclysm’s spell actually did, really, and where Zhaitan’s lair was (on an elevation scale) and how much they can be unaffected. But hell, we have dragons rising from underground and while incased in stone – it wouldn’t be surprising to me if Elder Dragons are effectively dead while “hibernating” since they apparently can’t be suffocated.
Which… kind of would explain why none of the elder races or Glint bothered to try to kill Kralkatorrik and the others while they slept.
Eastern and Western Commons are actually general districts and not heritage-specific. Krytans have Salma District.
And Glint was not fighting Kralkatorrik’s corruption but Kralkatorrik itself, whereas the Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons and their corruption – Mordremoth is just the biggest threat to sylvari.
As far as what can be told, that is false. Look back at her conversation, she stated Mordremoth specifically and doesn’t speak about the other dragons. There is no measure of dialog referring to the other EDs. You are taking a large leap in trying to conjure that point of argument. Why would Anet, who you claim in another topic as implying certain circumstances, not just explain that “Hey, I protect sylvari from Dragon Corruption.”
No, she says, “I protect you from Mordremoth’s corruption.” You can make up whatever excuse but this one is a blind shot in the dark.
I point back to even older lore that’s been known for quite some time: the Pale Reavers. Or rather, why they were formed. Sylvari are “immune” to dragon corruption – from ALL dragon corruption. The Pale Tree mention Mordremoth because he’s the dragon being talked about but as we are told in Marching Orders the sylvari are immune to becoming risen, and as we were told with sylvari lore introduction this is true for all Elder Dragons’ corruption too, with specific mentions of Zhaitan’s and Kralkatorrik’s. The Pale Tree confirmed being the reason why she’s protecting against Mordremoth’s corruption, and there’s protection against all Elder Dragons. Put two and two together and you get…
As for the fighting all Elder Dragons, we see countless sylvari receiving Wyld Hunts to kill Zhaitan (or rather, face his minions and corruption – only two are given such to kill Zhaitan itself) – and though not seen very clearly, dozens of sylvari receive Wyld hunts to battle the other Elder Dragons. Sylvari are called to fight all Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree lends her aid for fighting all Elder Dragons – not just Mordremoth.
Everything I talk about here was known long before episode 2.
This is where I kitten my head and raise a brow. You say that dragons corrupt differently and yet have gone on to assume that there is only way to free a champion of Dragon Corruption based on the lore over Glint. But if each corrupts differently, then there must be various means to tackle said obstacle. Glint was a unique situation because Kral’s corruption doesn’t necessarily work like Jor, Prim, Zhai, etc. We do not know whether this was the only way further making the idea that the PT imprinted upon Ventari’s tablet, quite plausible. Maybe that’s not what happened but we do know the PT had even respect on Ventari specifically that it either pulled his soul or created a mirror copy – I’m inclined to believe the later – into The Dream.
To me that’s very telling that corruption, not only does work in different ways as you say, but also can be conquered in different ways. Meaning that there isn’t just one solution.
For Elder Dragon corruption, there are two halves: the actual thing that happens during the process of corruption, and how they go about doing it.
The “actual thing that happens” is shared amongst all Elder Dragons – because of this, all Elder Dragons can corrupt in the same manner, but for some reason (a reason I like to describe as “choosing to”) they corrupt in different manners. That shared bit is – to use Gorr’s words – that they consume, corrupt, then return the (now corrupted) magic to the victim to create a minion. How they do this changes, but this is what all Elder Dragons do. Just like how what the Elder Dragons corrupt changes due to their “choice” when we see that their corruption can corrupt anything equally (just as we see Zhaitan’s corruption afflict living, dead, inanimate, and plant, but Zhaitan and the risen directly only corrupt the dead).
What the ritual does is remove the mental alteration that comes with corruption – another thing shared amongst all Elder Dragons – and not the corruption itself. Rather, what it does is return (or give in the case of inanimate objects being corrupted and made mobile ala destroyers – or so all indications would claim) free will so that the minion can chose whether or not to listen to the mental alteration (a forced fanaticism) that the corruption gave.
Furthermore, I can say that there is only one means of freeing corruption because that’s all that’s ever been hinted at let alone confirmed in the lore of the game, while we see these different means of corrupting and different targets of corruption. Even in a recent interview, it was said that means of preventing corruption are so non-existent because the act of corruption isn’t understood.
This doesn’t mean that other means can’t exist, just that they currently don’t. It’s a plot point throughout the entire game that corruption is irreversible, and we’ve only been given a single immensely rare alternative.
Furthermore, in both the ritual and the interview’s explanation, it is a requirement of magic to reverse the corruption – something that a mere piece of stone utterly lacks.
The mentioned interview, by the way, can be found here.
The magic Elder Dragons use to corrupt things is ancient, powerful, and barely understood by the greatest magical minds on Tyria. There have been spells that could successfully cleanse a living thing of dragon corruption (see the Ruined City of Arah dungeon’s Forgotten path, or the climax of the Pact’s campaign in Orr) but they are not well understood, require significant resources to cast, and must be cast in a particular geographic location, so they are not universally available.
There may be alternative means, but it requires ancient and not-understood magics with great resources and certain geographical locations – unless it is the Dream, the Pale Tree lacks all of these.
We’ve gotten confirmation that the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan in no way, shape, or form.
But it doesn’t mean Zhaitan couldn’t have affected the Cataclysm, Orr, or the aftermath in any way, shape, or form.
Also, it still had to have at least some effect on him. Even if his tomb was left untouched and even the tremors couldn’t reach him, he still found himself under both sea and land instead of just land when he woke.
Actually, not really. If Zhaitan affected the Cataclysm in his sleep, then the Cataclysm affected him in some way to trigger Zhaitan affecting it. But the way that Jeff Grubb once stated the statement that the Cataclysm didn’t affect Zhaitan heavily implied that despite common belief, the Cataclysm was not the source for the Orrian undead of GW1 (“mere wrinkles in the crust” being his way of describing the Cataclysm).
If we can’t take your posts at the face value they are given, they greatly lose relevance because you can always say something and anything else was implied.
I think you’ve seen my posts long enough to know my stance on the matter and, knowing that, can infer when I have a few implied phrases which are a common English usage.
Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.
Great. How does this relate to what we know of the sylvari? Everything I’m talking about relates to the topic at hand.
The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.
Exactlly my point. We don’t know. I’m not the one taking assumptions as fact here. I’m simply acknowledging actual possibilities.
I’m not taking assumptions as facts either, but apparently this discussion has gone on so long that you’ve forgotten what it was originally about – despite it not being that long at all. Let me try again:
Just because the Nightmare Court is altered and twisted, does not make them minions of Mordremoth; it can be little different than situations like Flame Legion shamans whom are altered physically and seemingly mentally. To outright claim that the Nightmare Court are minions of Mordremoth – as many do – is like outright claiming that the Flame Legion shamans are minions of Primordus (just as outright claiming the sylvari as a whole are minions of Mordremoth are like saying Embers are minions of Primordus).
In short, the common comparison is:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Sons of Svanir are to Jormag.
However, for all we can tell, the actual comparison is no different from:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Flame Legion are to Primordus.
That is to say, there are alterations that occur in the group, but they may or may not be tied to an Elder Dragon.
I make nor take no assumption – I am merely denying the assumptions made by others of a sure-fire Mordremoth connection.
I’m disagreeing with your response to my post. Nothing else.
Yet my response to your post had nothing to do with what the topic has delved into – the Nightmare Court being minions or not – but instead was an extrapolation of pointing out that claiming all sylvari to be Mordrem is foolhardy, and I cited appearance as an example (which, in all honesty, can be extended to the Nightmare Court as well).
Jeff Grubb: Actually, no. When the humans built Orr, they knew it for an extremely magical place but did not know the origin of that magic. (The asura made a similar mistake with their Central Transfer Chamber, which they parked right over Primordus.) If the human gods knew of what slumbered beneath the world, they said nothing. The Tome of Rubicon, from among the dwarves, held some legends that came down of their battle with the Great Destroyer, which was merely a herald of Primordus.
So the humans also harnessed Zhaitan’s power.
Actually, that statement says nothing about harnessing Zhaitan’s power. Despite this, however, the Six Gods – not the humans – did harness some of it, and such has been known since release: the Six Gods siphoned a bit of power to strengthen the Bloodstones when they divided them. Over 1,000 years before the Cataclysm or their waking.
A problem with you “being right” is that nothing says that the Pale Tree and all sylvari are corrupted already. The Pale Tree says that Mordremoth has stronger corruption, and that he works through cracks in willpower for sylvari, but that tells us that they are NOT corrupted.
And Glint was not fighting Kralkatorrik’s corruption but Kralkatorrik itself, whereas the Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons and their corruption – Mordremoth is just the biggest threat to sylvari.
Actually, there’s a decent indication that they decided to tie those crystals to Kralkatorrik. In the Priory path for invading Orr, there is mention of the Flame Legion enchanting the cauldrons and in both that instance, the event in Iron Marches, and with the Searing Effigy the crystals are purple (rather than the GW1 bluish – which were very akin to Glint’s coloring).
If there is no connection, then ArenaNet certainly wants to make it seem like there is one. And you can’t say there isn’t one because Elder Dragons weren’t a thing during Prophecies, for why I point to Glint.
Ok let me get this straight.
The nations are going to gather some of their most important leaders for a summit, right at the Pale Tree who was a dragon champion of Mordremoth. She has a high chance of getting corrupted by Mordremoth (Hello? Any brains home???). At the same time the Nightmare Court just happens to be the only faction that we didn’t have to “weaken” during Ep3, so they will have their full strength to infiltrate and attack the summit.
Allow me to straighten you out.
The Pale Tree being a champion of Mordremoth is player speculation and despite the fact we’ve learned the sylvari are corruptible by Mordremoth, nothing truly supports that argument, still. Nothing says the Pale Tree is easily corruptible either, given that she is the one preventing Mordremoth’s corruption. If anything, she is likely fully immune and is sending that immunity to her children.
Secondly, we didn’t weaken bandits or Inquest either. Nor Flame Legion nor Renegsdes nor Separatists nor centaurs. We only dealt with Sons of Svanir and Foefire ghosts.
We’ve gotten confirmation that the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan in no way, shape, or form.
The Elder Dragons wake on cycles. Drawing power from them may slow their awakening since they apparently need to be fed some magic before awakening, but it wouldn’t cause their stirring.
Jormag doesn’t feed on minds but the magic individuals have – he communicates and corrupts telepathically.
The statues of the gods have divine energy within the stone itself, the risen temple priests are merely harnessing and corrupting that energy, and sending said corruption to all the statues throughout Orr.
Both complete and not are a 1325 viewpoint. And those that change usually change to a “yeah, yeah, I get it… But I don’t like it, they just better prove useful allies” rather than openly spitting on the orders while following them.
It was that there was negative Asian (not Chinese alone) review of the district due to the mix-match of cultural influence. Apparently Asians are heavily prideful about their culture being mixed with their neighbors’ to create a fictional culture.
Factions was similar though less apparent with its mix-matching but still received a lot of bad reviews – and had a lot more in-depth lore to explain how the cultures are ‘not Asian’ to those players (but not NA/EU players).
If you speak to the NPCs (some must be before their respective heart completion) in Fields of Ruin, then you’ll see that the only humans working with charr are soldiers ordered to do such or very few individuals hopeful of furthering the peace, and the only charr working with humans are Sentinels or those ordered to ‘play nice’ as I recall one wording it.
I would hardly consider such a situation to be two “friendly nations”. They aren’t openly hostile anymore, but they’re not friendly either.
No, it isn’t. It’s celebrating the ceasefire and start of negotiations. To give a real-world analogy, we’re between the 11/11/1918 armistice and the signing of the Versailles Treaty, and unlike WW1 there’s no clear winner to ram their terms down the throat of a clear loser and threaten an immediate resumption of hostilities if the latter doesn’t capitulate on all points and sign immediately.
Um, the cease-fire was formed a while ago.. close to right after the brand formed IIRC. Dougal Keane was sent into Ascalon city AFTER the cease-fire, to get the claw of Khan-ur so humans had something to start the peace talks with. And why would they throw a party celebrating the cease fire… a year or two after it happened (Assuming cease-fire happened shortly before Dougal Keane went into AC, which I honestly think it’d form closer to when the brand formed instead, but we have no dates for that.). So a year or two if it formed right before Keane went after the claw, six years or so if it formed right after the brand started. Some of the dialogue in the fields of ruin implies the Charr formed the Sentinals directly after the brand came to be, and a good number of the Charr involved in the siege of Ebonhawke joined that force instantly.
The term used is Detente, which means “an ending of unfriendly or hostile relations between countries” I personally think that’s closer to peace treaty then cease-fire because cease-fire just means everybody stops shooting, it doesn’t mean the nations are friendly at all.
Besides, even if the treaty isn’t finished as of CM, it’s a peace treaty. Those things usually, IIRC, tend to NOT get resolved super quickly.
You need to brush up on your lore.
The entire reason why Dougal was sent into Ascalon City was to obtain the Claw of the Khan-Ur so that negotiations can begin. At the end of Edge of Destiny, we just see a very small fraction of charr working with Ebonhawke and surviving. That was nothing more than a temporary truce, one that ended within a day. The one we see being negotiated over in Fields of Ruin began shortly after Ghosts of Ascalon – 4 years after EoD, and 1 year before the Personal Story. Caudecus’ Manor is just a celebration for the negotiations going well – not started nor finished. Just “going well.” In the eyes of those from Kryta, and not those dealing with Separatists and Renegades. The entire party was nothing but a farce presented by Caudecus to gain popularity with the Queen’s supporters – a political ploy.
There is no treaty, and the nations are not friendly – the leaders hope for the nations to become friendly, but as of the PS and Caudecus’s Manor, they haven’t hit that point (and we’ve seen no progress in the past 2 years thanks to how the Living World functions and Anet’s apparent policy of minimal resources for maximum direct story). That is why it’s called a cease-fire. All they did was stop firing, and offer gifts to convince each other to enter negotiations.
Cantha has been cut off for 100 years. Only the Zephyrites had access to it and they aren’t too telling of the places they go. If you talked to various NPCs such as Dusk and Marjory during the Festival of the Four Winds, then you would have gathered the immense hints of the Zephyrites just coming from Cantha, and they said the place they came from – without naming it – had fabulous culture and were doing well (at least culturally).
Going off of Festival of the Four Winds, it seems like Cantha is in the best condition out of any known continent or nation.
The problem, of course, being that we don’t calculate probability based on the unknown infinities that can be applied to every situation otherwise nothing would be likely at all. We calculate probability based of finite knowns measured against other finite knowns. Bolded shows that the possibility of a good possibility even exists in this unknown comparison. Because the unkowns may well allow for multiple paths to the same outcome. If we knew that there was only one single way for it to happen then it could be unlikely, but there may be multiple natural ways with one of many key ingediant that just happens to have been fulfilled by the Pale Tree, or Ronin, or ventari or any combination of all. We have absolutely no idea.
I’m not talking about infinite unknowns.
I’m talking about finite unknowns. There’s a limited number of possible forms that magic can become – however, this limited number is incredibly high. That high – but finite – number makes the probability low.
Just look at all the skills of GW1 – both player and NPC-only – and then look at all the skills of GW2 – both player and NPC-only – and then all the massive magical disasters and all those magical devices. That’s the minimal number of possibilities for the form of magic. And that’s a huge amount still!
Ouch. You seem cranky. So. now that you’ve aimed lower, you demonstrate how you make suppositions and take it as fact. You have no idea if the connection is no different than destroyers and embers because there is no confirmation one way or another when it comes to the sylvari and mordy.
Since you want to nitpick every single syllable of my posts and take them as absolute literal with no implied words (a common practice in English), let me try once more:
The connection by all supporting evidences is no different than the connection between destroyer and ember.
Charr are not confirmed corrupted like the nightmare court is so…. little different situation here.
Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.
The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.
I’m not even saying that all sylvari are mordremoths minions. What I am saying is that there may actually be some sort of connection between them/Pale Tree and mordy whether they are minions or not. Because we have absolutely no idea about their origins before Ronin found the seeds. Why you find that possibility so offensive is beyond me.
Well, why are you disagreeing with me in the first place?
Again, you’re taking my posts at a nitpickery literal interpretation it seems, as I was talking about the theory that the OP made – the dead horse theory of sylvari being Mordremoth’s MINIONS.
I wasn’t talking about no connection at all. Though I think that connection is about as much as there’d be if Primordus went around looking for Embers and Earth Elementals to corrupt. The sylvari seem to be primary target for the Elder Dragon, and little more. Maybe Mordremoth recognizes them as a threat, or maybe he knows that they’re made as an anti-Elder Dragon weapon, or maybe because they’re just plants and we’ll be seeing him going on a crusade to corrupt Druids and standard treants next.
Somewhere in DR, you have a woman talking about asking her boyfriend to marriage, stating that though traditionally it’s standard for the man to ask the question he’s too hesitant. She also mentions a ring, indicating that it’s akin to the typical view of marriage.
In GW1, the clothing of Gwen and Keiran are of Ascalonian tradition, following the typical design of white dress for the bride and a tux/suit for the groom.
So yeah… human weddings=standard modern weddings, apparently.
I doubt they’d willingly become dragon servants. According to lore, the Nightmare Court still views the Elder Dragons as their enemies – they merely disagree with how to go about it. I wish this was highlighted more in the storyline though.
Mordrem Husks and Nightmare Husks look very different. Akin to the difference of a person and just after the same person becomes a risen (skin turns gray and a bit rotten immediately).
Mordrem Husks are more likely corrupted Summoned Husks.
I’m expecting the NC to get involved sometime. We know Scarlet brokered a deal with them so she could do her research in their territory but we never found out what it was the NC looked to gain from their brief allegiance.
We actually did in an interview.
The Court’s benefit was solely “spreading Nightmare via the Tower of Nightmares”.
It was the most pathetic of explanations for all of Scarlet’s alliances.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Plus, Mordremoth’s corruption seems tied to willpower, not dissimilar to Jormag’s
The Mordrem, like hounds and threshers don’t look like they were corrupted by willpower. And no-one would mistake them for normal creatures.
And the Icebrood are likewise unmistakably transformed physically as well as mentally.
Those of Zhaitans minions that retained part of their original minds still changed their behaviour radically, and their forms were often completely twisted.
Scarlet is a massive reversal in what a dragon minion is, in terms of story, plot and lore, appearance, actions, motives, personality, demeanour. If they’d given a dragon minion a leather jacket and put it on water skis it could hardly have made a less jarring disconnect.
Talk to the Pale Tree as a sylvari in the first instance of Episode 3 and she will say that Mordremoth’s corruption spreads through cracks in the will of the sylvari and that is how Mordremoth got to Scarlet.
The Pale Tree confirmed that Scarlet Briar was corrupted by Mordremoth. But sylvari may not show signs of physical corruption – or maybe it’s subtle like Kellach and Necromancer Rissa, possibly due to being unusual methods of corruption.
I would place Scarlet in the same category as I would Kellach. A champion given enough freedom that with willpower they act against the dragon – or rather, think they are, while actually doing the dragon’s will.
The logic here is flawed. What you’re doing is looking at all the possible outcomes and saying that it is unlikely that one exact instance can fulfill all criteria. That’s like saying the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order od events is so near impossible that your life most likely hasn’t even happened.
Nah, what I’m saying is more of "the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order of events is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that life into being a slightly different life which may or may not hold the same outcome.
Using the same sentence structure for the topic at hand:
“the possibility of every detail of natural magic happening in just such an order to result in the ritual’s effects is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that magic into being a slightly different form of magic which may or may not hold the same outcome.”
Knowing how both work would certainly allow one to mimic it, which is what your comparison of scuba gear, body armor, etc. works, but for your comparison it would be more akin to humanity evolving to naturally have the things we’ve created stuff to function as (e.g., naturally evolving gills).
That’s ironic that you would use the human/chimp example because there is actually a connection there.
In the same way that both Mordrem and sylvari are plants. That was the hidden message – which you apparently missed entirely. Let me try aiming lower:
“Yes, there is a connection, but that connection is no different from Destroyers and Embers.”
You’ve already pointed out similarities yourself. The only difference is you dismiss them by saying they MAY not be creations of Mordy. But that inherently means that they also may. That is even aside from the fact that corruption can drastically alter a being.
Is a charr a minion of Kralkatorrik due to the existence of Branded charr? No.
Saying that the Overgrown Hounds and Husks may be minions of Mordremoth because they are corrupted Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks is no different than saying a branded charr may be a minion of Kralkatorrik because they’re corrupted charr.
Just like how a Nightmare Hound is not the same as a Sylvan Hound – because the Nightmare Hounds are twisted forms of the Sylvan Hounds.
So if we look at how plants get corrupted we can look at the Nightmare Court as a base. They are definitely corrupted. If we see a corrupting dragons minions start looking real similar that may well be a clue. As I said, the possibility is there. It isn’t confirmed but you also can’t say that it isn’t a decent possibility.
The possibility of the Nightmare Court being Mordremoth’s corruption is not unlikely at this stage. However, that does not mean that all sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions – which is what I’m saying is unlikely.
Kralkatorrik is indeed the dragon of air. You are looking only at the branded and the fact that the dragons create violet crystals, while you should look at the dragon itself and the concept behind it. The crystals are just the shape of a natural element that give matter to the dragon, but the power behind it is of tornadoes and hurricanes.
False. We NEVER see tornadoes being linked to Kralkatorrik and a hurricane is only linked to Kralkatorrik in the metaphorical sense. In Edge of Destiny we see him use fire, lightning, creating crystals, and becoming a *sand*storm.
In an interview with GuildMag, Jeff Grubb related the Elder Dragons to the aspects of " elements, vegetation, water". (Source) – what’s interesting is the separation of water from elements, giving hint that “elements” differ from that of Primordus and Jormag. Kralkatorrik is seen – even in his minions just as much as him himself – using multiple elements (fire, earth, air). That is the best relation to Kralkatorrik if not earth/crystal itself.
If you try linking Kralkatorrik to air because he becomes a sandstorm and creates a storm when he flew, well, Jormag made a 4-year long blizzard when he awoke and a blizzard is just a bunch of air moving around quickly with snow. So clearly Jormag is also air!
Life is a very large concept present in vary shades, in particular Mordremoth is associated with the form of life that blooms with vegetation, nature, plants, trees, flowers, soil and roots, everything that is arboreal. This is the particular domain of life that the dragon uses and commands. Unfortunately this concepts are not easy to understand for people who don’t have notions of pre-socratic philosophy, worldwide mythology, alchemy, astrology, and such. Mordremoth’s minions, sylvari included, are so adaptable and resemble so closely the nature of the planet Tyria, because the primordial aspect of life that Mordremoth embodies is similar to the force that makes natural cycles move on the planet. The difference is that the Elder Dragons have shown to embody a more destructive and uncontrollable version of this forces, but nonetheless they are similar.
The greatest fallacy is automatically linking sylvari to being Mordremoth’s minions. But I disagree. Being able to create life out of mere stone, or bringing life back to a dead body, is as much of “life” either more or equally as producing vegetation.
I think you’re trying to separate the Elder Dragons too much. To once more quote Jeff Grubb in the aforementioned interview:
“We’ve shown that from the early Eye of the North, and when we designed the Elder Dragons we were looking at them having specialties where they could corrupt more than just one type of substance. Some of them could affect life, some of them could affect inanimate objects, some of them could affect the elements, vegetation, water, you know they all had their some specialty but they also have some overlap […]”
Also, look at the picture of the eternal alchemy. You have all thought there was something about the order in which the spheres glow, but have you thought about the disposition of those spheres?
Left: Primordus, Mordremoth and Bubbles
Right: Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and JormagAll of those on the left, with the exception of Bubbles (lack of info), create and generate their minions, and infact they embody different aspects of life (the initial spark of life, the vegetation that grows, the underwater life).
On the opposite, all the dragons on the right corrupt already existing living beings (Sons of Svanir and various kodans, Orrians and various fallen or dead characters, Branded).
Entirely false.
So you have 3 dragons which do not conform to your ideals there. While they focus on corrupting their respective side of living or inorganic materials, they are far from restricted to such.
Clouds exist over all of Orr, actually, and has been consistently present since the Cataclysm – as well as a deathly chill in the air, etc. that’s talked about in both Sea of Sorrows and in Orr itself.
Clouds exist all over the planet. I’m referring to storm clouds, they’re dark and they give a gloomy appearance, which means there isn’t some kind of unique property but merely weather altering the look of the landscape.
Shine some light and I guarantee Malachor’s leap would have the same appearance.
That is what I meant too. Dark putrid (not your standard storm clouds) perpetual clouds are a part of the lore of post-Cataclysm Orr.
Go to Meddler’s Summit and you will find a Vigil talking about the atmosphere being different throughout Orr. Read Sea if Sorrows and it’ll talk about it before The Maw first shows up. This is common across all of Orr, likely due to Zhaitan.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/68/Ruins_of_Orr_map.jpg
So gloomy stormclouds caused that dispersing pattern? The one that fans out right from the spot where Zhaitan was sitting?
I don’t see a pattern at all. You’re looking at aesthetics based on the current lighting of the map. Wouldn’t take too much from it personally.
You don’t see that blue-green tint starting from the very center of Orr and heading out north to northwest in a cone shape, engulfing Malchor’s Leap and the edges of Straits of Devastation and Cursed Shores? If so, you must be colorblind – no offense in the statement but there is an obvious color change from the rest of Orr and I could only see a colorblind person not being able to tell.
Malchor’s Leap is darker in-game but there is also a change in the very land itself.
@Silavor: Zhaitan’s lair was actually east of Arah, as is where we killed him.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Clouds exist over all of Orr, actually, and has been consistently present since the Cataclysm – as well as a deathly chill in the air, etc. that’s talked about in both Sea of Sorrows and in Orr itself.
One thing I forgot before: why does everyone call Mordremoth the dragon of life?
If anything, I’d say that the closest Elder Dragon whom is “of life” would be Primordus. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan – they corrupt living or once-living beings. Mordremoth to me seems to create minions from his own body rather than corrupting existing organic matter (though I may be wrong and he, like Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Zhaitan, corrupts organic matter). The deep sea dragon we don’t know. But Primordus breaths life into stone. He makes life from inanimate objects. Look at the various mythologies – from the Abrahamic faith to even Greek myths, we have God/a god breathing life into clay to make a human (or human-like being), very much like Primordus.
If any Elder Dragon is an “Elder Dragon of life”, it’d be Primordus, not Mordremoth who seems to enjoy strangling living beings.
Maybe, maybe not. We can’t really say how likely it is because we as players don’t even have an understanding of the magic either.
Aside from a recent interview with the Spanish community explaining that dragon corruption and the magics countering such are so ancient that no one has a grasp of them, and then taking into consideration:
You end up getting a very small number for the possibility of ambient magic doing what the Forgotten ritual did (or something similar), simply due to the unknown of the first point, and the immensely high number of the second point.
The Pale Tree based them off of humans. So how they look can’t be counted as evidence either way. Now you may be right that there is no connection but the possibility is definitly there and it should be okay to speculate on that possibility.
Ignore the humanoid appearance, and look at the fundamentals of their physiology, the downright appearance of the planty appearance, and they look nothing alike.
To claim that a Mordrem and a sylvari look alike, is to say a human and chimpanzee look alike, in all honesty.
The Concordia instance talks about magic being drained but there was no Mordrem Thrasher.
The Mordrem Vile/Leecher Thrashers don’t really seem like specialized minions. Though they do share the same rigging as Eyes of Zhaitan, I believe that’s the only connection there is.
Each Elder Dragon acts differently – only Zhaitan will have Eyes and Mouths, most likely. After all, in Honor of the Waves the Icebrood there are consuming kodan artifacts, and in the personal storyline we see the overgrown Icebrood Norn models attempting to consume a Spirit of the Wild (Minotaur), as well being used to consume grawl sacrifices (also, there are two such Icebrood in Honor of the Waves, in the path of saving the artifacts). Despite this, these quad-pedal Icebrood Norn do not appear anything unique. Similarly, the Vile/Leecher thrashers are not unique – ALL Eyes of Zhaitan were unique, and rare, and ranked elite or stronger.
As said, the Eyes and Mouths were specialized and seems to be specific to Zhaitan. I wouldn’t expect such amongst the other dragons. Especially since all that the minions know, the respective Elder Dragons know – the point of Eyes of Zhaitan kind of seemed redundant.
Furthermore, it should be noted that the Eyes of Zhaitan were called such because they’re holding an eye – that eye isn’t part of their body, interestingly enough (or at least, isn’t obviously so), so it’s possible that the Eyes of Zhaitan were just former royals of Orr turned Risen and attached to anchors that were then holding an actual eye of the Elder Dragon so that Zhaitan can see directly and not simply via the thoughts of his minions.
Vile/Leecher Thrashers appear to be the support for the grunts of the army (with wolves being glass cannons and Husks being tanks), and the Mordrem Thrasher appear to be his low-class champions (akin to Dragonspawn, Morgus Lethe, Captain Whiting, etc.). Nothing specialized (like Eyes/Mouths of Zhaitan) or high ranking (like the dragon-shaped champions (Tequatl, Blightghast, Claw of Jormag, Glint, etc)).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
That greenish tint extends all the way from the centre of Arah and fans out from there. It’s probably a more direct corruption of the land by Zhaitan, in a similar vein to the Brand. The Temple of Lyssa right near the middle of Malchor’s Leap was an important Risen-making facility, so that entire region was much more valuable to Zhaitan than either Cursed Shore or the Straits of Devastation.
That was my thought, as that cone of blueish green covers all the important parts of Zhaitan’s corruption – including the Artesian Waters which are on the edge of it. And fun fact: some anti corruption stuff is outside of that blueish-green coloring: the Temple of Grenth, which is said to have the least amount of corruption in all of Orr.
Wrong forum.
You have a bug.
/report it.
I am utterly amazed that people keep the Mordremoth-Sylvari theory going. Look at all of the minions of Mordremoth. Does any of them look like sylvari (beyond Aerin and Scarlet because they’re corrupted sylvari, obviously)? Does any of them look like a white oak tree?
No. Mordremoth’s corruption is in the form of vines, or briars and thorns, and of flamboyant flowers. The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.
Think about it. That Mysterious Vine backpiece is a red herring for this theory.
Perhaps you need to look at Glint’s own account of how she was freed again. While the Forgotten ritual did play a part in it, but that wasn’t all.
You don’t seem to understand what part the ritual played.
Dragon minions do not have free will. The creatures that champions and minions create do not have free will. They are a hive mind, fanatically devoted to their Elder Dragon. The former is seen amongst Destroyers, Icebrood, Branded, and Risen all – the latter is seen amongst Icebrood, Branded, and Risen. This is seen only due to the fact that we hadn’t really gotten much on Mordrem or the DSD’s minions – there’s equally no reason to presume otherwise beyond the Mysterious Vine, which is rather questionable still, since it’s just a seedling model.
The part that the Forgotten ritual played was that it gave Glint free will, so that she could choose whether or not to follow Kralkatorrik. Before the ritual, there was naught but following Kralkatorrik; afterwards, there was other options – there was choices, there was free will. Champions seem to have a degree of self-will, but they are still enslaved to the will of their dragon. Glint, having been given the option of not following Kralkatorrik, continued to do so until she slaughtered and heard enough minds to realize what she was doing was wrong.
Without that ritual, Glint wouldn’t have been able to free herself. Without her desire to leave, she would have actively and intentionally been serving Kralkatorrik. Both are needed, but the ritual is needed more because it created the chance for her to break free.
A mere stone cannot give that chance. Something more is needed.
With the Mysterious Vine, there’s a really strong chance that one of the ingredients included lessened Mordremoth’s will on it (if anything, I’d place my bets on the Foefire ghostly essence, given the similarities between the Foefire spell and Elder Dragon corruption and the ghost essence we got was from the Foefire cleansing’s effects). But the Pale Tree – thus far – has had no such thing.
priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.
Possible but the likelihood is immensely unlikely.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Actually, it’s vegetation in accordance to Jeff Grubb.
But tell me, have you seen a single Mordrem that is tree-like? Have you seen any of Mordremoth’s corruption that even come close to actually looking like the Pale Tree?
Because I sure haven’t.
That seed becomes a VINE. The Pale Tree is a white oak tree.
Vine != white oak tree
All GW1 characters are dead.
ArenaNet wanted nothing to do with GW1, so they killed them all off. Even the immortal gods.
/endsarcasm
We only see a few descendants and gravestones. Resurrection magic at some point ceased to exist in-lore, and has been mostly forgotten about. People still died of old age even with resurrection magic, btw, that stuff only resurrected folks who died of swords and whatnot (so it seemed). And waypoints don’t resurrect, PCs in GW2 never die – hence why the states are called “downed” and “defeated” not “dead”. You’re merely knocked unconscious every time.
Not to mention that the blue glows completely miss Lion’s Arch, Thaumanova, and the Cavern of Shining Lights.
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