Guild Wars 2

I agree that the rewards in GW2 suck, but honestly, I never understood the people’s need to grind or farm.

I hate grinding. I hate farming even more. Hence I don’t do either. I just play whatever I feel like and the gold + mats pile up automatically.

I’m sitting on 1800g now and have 3 legendaries. The only time I ever grinded is when I was really close to finishing my 1st legendary. After that, I never grinded, not once.

And before you think I must be really lucky like your friend is: No I’m not. I never had a precursor drop and I rarely get an exotic drop worth more than 2-3g.

Seriously, just run a few dungeons, do a few world bosses, maybe one or two cycles of Silverwastes and before you know it you’re sitting on a pile of gold. It might take a bit longer to get rich that way but if you don’t waste your gold on useless crap you will get rich in an acceptable amount of time.

Nike.2631:

Oh for the love of the Six Absent Gods would people please quit trimming off the “who said this” tagging at the top of quotes!!?!? Amongst other things they are hotlinks to the original post so you can review the quoted posts in their entirety.

Wall of Unattributed Text critical hits for ALL THE SANITY POINTS.

I second this. I know Ohoni actually does it on purpose for whatever reason. Maddoctor at least inserts the name of the person he’s quoting once at the top of his comment.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

And there we differ (no worries, that’s normal ). To me the best “drop” from a raid is the experience of beating the raid – and there are no other avenues to get that reward. Nothing diminishes it.

Let me share a story.

A new raid came out in a game I was playing hard. I was bouncing between three different guilds at the time: two good sized raiding guilds and my RL buddies guild. We weren’t big enough to field our own raid groups but were welcome in both the other groups’ raid nights because of our proven reputation for being focused, well-geared, and knowledgeable on raid strats in our roles. I also had the free time and raid-ready characters for all three roles so I could fill in gaps in any composition.

We’d all beaten the first boss on soft-cuddly mode, but hard mode was kicking everybody’s butt. After a few weeks of this I finally end up approaching the raid leaders of both guilds asking if they’d give over some of their top people to me for a week (raid locks being a thing). I put together a hand-picked composition from the hardest of the hard from three guilds. I normally prefer to heal, but I had two healers better than me to play with and my tank was stronger than the second strongest tank available to me so I’m rolling in on my tank. Simultaneous raid-calling and tanking. Yeah, kinda crazy. We zone in and mad with power, I start putting them through drills: tackle some hard-as-heck trash pulls with certain people sitting out (“pretend Zane has DC’d”). People picked so guild A’s tank has to rely solely on Guild C’s healer that they’ve never played with before in a fight that’s lively with two healers. Or half the DPS sitting out so they can see the tanks and healers are still dishing major damage alongside their core roles. My version of a “getting to know you” party, only with bloodthirsty mobs serving the drinks .

I probably don’t have to tell you how the story ends. Ok, fine: In epic whupus form we beat down the boss encounter — all nine stages — on our third try of the evening. One of the other raid leaders put together a multi-angle video set to music where you can hear my voice calling the phases with occasional, tight commentary from the team as they very professionally call for assistance when they’re getting pressured. And cheering. Oh the cheering. Every contributing guild took home players who knew the strats first hand, veterans who would help their in-house teams make it happen in the following weeks.

I don’t have the slightest recollection what came out of the box that evening and I rarely ever log into the game anymore… but the story? Pure GOLD. Loot of the finest kind. I still go back and watch the video from time to time.

Got a link to that vid? I’m curious.

Ohoni.6057:

No you are still wrong yet for some reason don’t get it, the volume of non-exclusive is all that matters. That’s what limiting frustration means and is.

Hmmm. . . how to explain this. . .

Ok, say you are a vegetarian. You only eat veggies. I have a restaurant, and I decide that I have separate menus for different people. I give you your menu, it’s the menu you have to order off of, who gets which menu is up to me. Now each menu contains ten out of twenty possible items I can serve, each person gets ten choices, so it’s all fair, right?

But let’s say that even though I serve seven different vegetarian dishes, the menu you end up with is one that includes maybe one veggie dish, one that you don’t especially care for, or maybe even none of them at all. They’re in the restaurant, I’m perfectly willing to serve them to other customers who have that item on their menus, but not to you, because it’s not on the menu that I arbitrarily assigned to you.

Would you find that your frustration has been “limited” by having access to those other ten dishes, the ones to which you couldn’t care less about having access, or would you feel that you were still frustrated by having your favorite meals available to other customers, but not to you, because I decided that they wouldn’t show up on your menu?

Your analogy is absolute garbage and doesn’t even come close to describing the situation in GW2.

I have a better, simpler and more accurate analogy for you:

You live in a neighborhood with several restaurants, some close to your home and some far away. The closest restaurant to your home is an a Mexican restaurant. The Italian restaurant is quite far away.
Obviously the Italian restaurant serves Italian food and the Mexican restaurant serves Mexican food. Everyone is fine with that, except for Ohoni. Because Ohoni really loves pizza, but doesn’t feel like driving all the way to the Italian restaurant. Instead, he demands that the Mexican restaurant starts serving pizzas.
Ohoni doesn’t mind if the pizzas would be cheaper at the Italian restaurant, as long as the Mexican restaurant near his house starts serving pizzas, because he really wants those pizzas but he’s really doesn’t like driving to the Italian restaurant.
In fact, in Ohoni’s ideal world, EVERY restaurant would serve EVERY meal. This doesn’t at all sound outlandish, unrealistic or nuts to him, despite other people pointing out how it’s simply not feasible for every restaurant to serve every dish.

xarallei.4279:

No, he’s never specifically said what he wants to do as an alternative. He’s always been very vague about what exactly would be an appropriate amount of effort equal to raiding for these alternate activities and what exactly these alternative activities are. Now I know what they aren’t, he’s said stuff like role playing and sitting around LA would obviously not do it. But what does in his book?

I find that highly exclusive of him.

I mean what if I enjoy roleplaying? Shouldn’t I be able to earn my legendary armor with that? What makes a person who farms Silverwastes or someone who enjoys raids, jumping puzzles, Silverwaster or map completion more entitled to legendary armor than a roleplayer?

A roleplayer might not enjoy raiding, dungeons, PvP, WvW, jumping puzzles, map completion and/or Silverwastes, but he might like that legendary armor. Shouldn’t he be entitled to that legendary armor just as anyone else?

I’d like to hear your answer to that question Ohoni.

Ohoni.6057:

Why would you think that raid armor is for you? It is clearly not for you since ya know… you don’t like raids and get raid armor you need to do raids. Entitled huh?

Because it might look cool.

Brilliant.

You’ve heard it guys, if something in GW2 looks cool then Ohoni is entitled to it. Doesn’t matter that he already dismissed raids before we even know anything about them, the armor you can earn with raiding might look cool, so Ohoni deserves it.

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

<snip>

You, and many others that post in this thread, should read more about the science of video game design. It includes video game reward systems too. It’s a topic that has been discussed and being researched a lot over the years.

Also, you should read more about player types. Let’s use one widely used (but somewhat flawed) method of splitting player types, the Bartle method. It splits players in 4 types, Achiever, Explorer, Socializer and Killer.

Achiever:
Also known as “Diamonds”, these are players who prefer to gain “points”, levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.

In other words, they don’t care how pretty legendary armor might look, but that it is behind hard content. It doesn’t matter how pretty the rewards are, but how you get them. Because the game uses achievement points it might look like chievers have a lot to do in GW2, but in reality they do not. There are very few prestige items that are worth something based on content and that’s where raids come in.

Explorer:
Explorers, dubbed “Spades” for their tendency to dig around, are players who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places. They often feel restricted when a game expects them to move on within a certain time, as that does not allow them to look around at their own pace. They find great joy in discovering an unknown glitch or a hidden easter egg.

They have lots to do in GW2, after all it’s a game that was supposed to be great for explorers. There are a lot of things to find in the game, vistas, mini games, puzzles. Sadly, after 3 years the amount of new things for explorers are very few, but that’s why we get a big expansion with new areas. And judging by the BWE, exploration will be highly rewarding in the new maps.

Socializers:
There are a multitude of gamers who choose to play games for the social aspect, rather than the actual game itself. These players are known as Socializers or “Hearts”. They gain the most enjoyment from a game by interacting with other players, and on some occasions, computer-controlled characters with personality. The game is merely a tool they use to meet others in-game or outside of it.

The game has a lot of potential for socializers, although I’ll admit, the tools for roleplayers are rather limited.

Killer:
“Clubs” is a very accurate moniker for what the Killer likes to do. They thrive on competition with other players, and prefer fighting them to scripted computer-controlled opponents.

It might look like Killers do not exist in GW2 because it has very limited open pvp (only in WvW), however a Killer is also a TP manipulator, that plays the TP to “defeat” other players in a game of bids. With the GW2 economy based largely on gold, Killers of this type have too much to do. The PVP Killers will either stalk players in WvW or try to compete at the higher levels of structured PVP

Aye. I remember this from school. Good stuff. Largely accurate.

As a gamer, I mostly classify as a combination between “achiever” and “killer”. I like exploration too though. I don’t much care for the social part of MMOs except for finding skilled and like-minded players who I can fight or team up with.

As you can imagine, I spend 99% of my time in PvP these days. The rest of GW2 does not interest me anymore. I’m not saying GW2 is a bad game, it’s just stagnant. After 3 years there is barely any new noteworthy content, nothing in GW2’s PvE proves a challenge for me anymore, I’ve beaten everything, explored everything and crafted every legendary I care about.

PvP is all that keeps my interest right now and I know many like-minded people who feel the same way. I’m in 2 very large guilds and the consensus seems to be the same in both guilds: “we’re bored, there’s nothing to do anymore in GW2”.

That is why I’m so excited for raids in HoT. If HoT was just more of the same casual content, it would probably keep me busy for a month or two and then I’d be bored again. With raids, if they are actually challenging, the “achiever” and “killer” inside me will finally have something to strife for in GW2 (being among the first to beat these difficult raids and getting my exclusive legendary armor in the progress).

Ohoni.6057:

The designers of games that use item reward systems must carefully limit the potential for player frustration. Also, in order to attract casual players, designers must carefully balance required player
commitment with reward quality (Juul, 2010).

Good point.

Most certainly a good point indeed. Sadly your idea of what would be a good balance is not that good.

maddoctor.2738:

An interesting bit on our “topic” of rewards from a paper called “Game Reward Systems: Gaming Experiences and Social Meanings”

-snip-

Yeah I linked that paper on page 31 of this thread. It’s a paper I had to peer-review as part of my graduation in Game Development & Architecture. It’s a good paper that proves our point. Of course I don’t expect Ohoni to listen though. He made up his mind, no amount of evidence to the contrary will change his mind. Hence I really think we should drop this discussion about rewards and actually get back on topic.

Torolan.5816:

If you only mean by recognition that I give these guys a friendly nod and a good job, then yes, I do this of course.

Yes, that’s all I meant.

Because really, that’s all you can expect anyway in a casual game like GW2 where everything is so kitten easy.

Ohoni.6057:

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Yeah, keep that dream alive. . .

You’re the one living in a dream world buddy.

But if you want I’ll screencap all the whispers I get from people complimenting me on my character’s looks and/or asking me where I got the gear/skins/dyes that I’m wearing, and then post them here on the forum.

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Actually you do. Players with higher skill want recognition for it, I know if you’ve never tried to better yourself you won’t get it, if you are always happy to be mediocre and average, but if you ever try to do that something more in a game, you will understand.

They may want it, but they will never get it. At least not from people like me. Pretty surprised about this argument to be honest.

I am actually the target of good natured puns from my fellow guildies with my heavy ascended armor because it looks a little like the bottom of sexy Flanders in that iron trouser, and up until the introduction of legendary armor this is the best armor available.
I also have any fractal success since ages. You won´t catch me parading this around when new people come in to play a fractal with me. I don´t care if they know about that, and they should not care too.

If people are so easily influencable that you can actually impress them with your shiny fractal back, legendary or similar rare item, I know they have a long way to go and smile at their efforts.

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Of course, nothing in GW2 is actually hard to get, so this (subconscious) sensation of seeing someone with impressive gear is not very present right now in GW2. Which is one of the issues of GW2. Skilled and dedicated players want recognition for their achievements but aren’t getting any because there is no way for them to show off their accomplishments other than maybe a title and a finisher. On top of that there really isn’t any hard content in GW2 right now, so there isn’t really much to brag about anyway.
So you managed to beat fractals at lvl 50? Big whoop. Anyone who isn’t senile can do that with a little practice and a proper team-comp.
Oh you managed to get to rank 80 in PvP? Big whoop, anyone who spends enough time in PvP can do that, even people who lose most of their matches.
Oh your server is the number 1 in WvW? Yeah, tell me more about how you outnumbered and outzerged the other servers.
Oh you have a legendary and full set of ascended armor? Good job, I’m sure mindlessly grinding your butt off was hella fun. Or did you use your credit-card?

It is a known fact that GW2 is not a very rewarding game and does not encourage people to try new things or challenge themselves. This would be fine if GW2 was an sandbox MMO, but it isn’t. It’s a themepark MMO, but it doesn’t have any interesting attractions for those who seek a real thrill. Right now GW2 is more like a kindergarten playground, not a proper themepark.

But I digress. Luckily, it does seem like GW2 is taking a step in the right direction with HoT. Challenging raids and exclusive rewards does sound like fun to me. It remains to be seen however how challenging these “challenging raids” really are.

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Actually you do. Players with higher skill want recognition for it, I know if you’ve never tried to better yourself you won’t get it, if you are always happy to be mediocre and average, but if you ever try to do that something more in a game, you will understand.

They may want it, but they will never get it. At least not from people like me. Pretty surprised about this argument to be honest.

I am actually the target of good natured puns from my fellow guildies with my heavy ascended armor because it looks a little like the bottom of sexy Flanders in that iron trouser, and up until the introduction of legendary armor this is the best armor available.
I also have any fractal success since ages. You won´t catch me parading this around when new people come in to play a fractal with me. I don´t care if they know about that, and they should not care too.

If people are so easily influencable that you can actually impress them with your shiny fractal back, legendary or similar rare item, I know they have a long way to go and smile at their efforts.

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Of course, nothing in GW2 is actually hard to get, so this (subconscious) sensation of seeing someone with impressive gear is not very present right now in GW2. Which is one of the issues of GW2. Skilled and dedicated players want recognition for their achievements but aren’t getting any because there is no way for them to show off their accomplishments other than maybe a title and a finisher. On top of that there really isn’t any hard content in GW2 right now, so there isn’t really much to brag about anyway.
So you managed to beat fractals at lvl 50? Big whoop. Anyone who isn’t senile can do that with a little practice and a proper team-comp.
Oh you managed to get to rank 80 in PvP? Big whoop, anyone who spends enough time in PvP can do that, even people who lose most of their matches.
Oh your server is the number 1 in WvW? Yeah, tell me more about how you outnumbered and outzerged the other servers.
Oh you have a legendary and full set of ascended armor? Good job, I’m sure mindlessly grinding your butt off was hella fun. Or did you use your credit-card?

It is a known fact that GW2 is not a very rewarding game and does not encourage people to try new things or challenge themselves. This would be fine if GW2 was an sandbox MMO, but it isn’t. It’s a themepark MMO, but it doesn’t have any interesting attractions for those who seek a real thrill. Right now GW2 is more like a kindergarten playground, not a proper themepark.

But I digress. Luckily, it does seem like GW2 is taking a step in the right direction with HoT. Challenging raids and exclusive rewards does sound like fun to me. It remains to be seen however how challenging these “challenging raids” really are.

Ohoni.6057:

No, they want to be challenged and rewarded properly for it. It’s not one or the other, it’s the combination of the two that people want.

Well everyone likes “moar free stuff,” but that doesn’t mean that their idea of “rewarded properly” actually is rewarding them properly, and they have to learn to accept that and play nice with others.

This is so deliciously ironic coming from you. :’)

But you’re right Ohoni. Clearly you want “moar free stuff”, but your idea of “rewarded properly” actually isn’t rewarding properly and you have to learn to accept that and play nice with others.

I’m done talking with you though. Everything that had to be said has been said. We’ve all heard how you think about raids and exclusive rewards. We also know that raids are definitely coming and they’re 100% certainly going to get exclusive rewards. No matter how many comments you type where you say you disagree with that, that isn’t going to change. Arguing about this any further is pointless, especially with you.

Now if you could please stop spamming the thread with your long-winded nonsense, then maybe we could hear some other people’s opinions for a change. I’d very much like to hear what other people think.

In the meantime, I suggest you read this research article on rewards in videogames (an article I actually had to peer-review). Maybe after reading this, you’ll see how incredibly wrong you are about everything and how your supposed “ideal” reward system is not feasible: http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/11310.20247.pdf

SkiTz.4590:

Fox.3469:

Ohoni.6057:

Mate the whole reason he tought up this challenge was because he is looking for harder content. WP is also one of the biggest supporters for unique rewards. And his channel is popular because he not only discusses the news, but also isn’t scared to directly point out what GW2 is doing wrong for him. And his views are in total direct opposition to your own. His videos being super popular in terms of GW2 content does not bode well for you saying it’s a “minority” of people who want exclusive rewards.

I’m not criticizing WP, love his videos and support his Patreon, but that doesn’t mean that I agree with him on everything and some of his opinions on “elite” content I just don’t agree, but I still enjoy his work. My point was just that you don’t need to be an exceptional player to produce videos that help promote the game. Eexa barely even plays the content at all in her videos.

And yet he’s not earning above minimum wage without his Patreon, wich i support aswell btw. And he is by far the most popular GW2 focussed channel. That is a problem. He needs to make up crazy challenges to even have an interesting stream. This is not good, and should not ever be considdered as the norm. This has nothing to do with GW2 but with WP’s passion. That man could talk about anything for 3 hours and i would to listen to it. Other them him, there is litterly noone even half as popular. We are talking about an exceptional person here.

Wp’s highest viewed video containing actual GW2 footage, the one about keyfarming, has just over 1/3 of the views of a world first raid guild’s mythic archimonde kill in wow recently, and that was a video by that guild. And that game is loosing subs constantly.

*GW2 at the moment has nothing going for itself in terms of making videos, and people that do make it a succes do so because they are awesome people. *While in other games some random dweep can actually raid, take it, upload it, and get tons of views more then our most dedicated content creators.

That’s because GW2 is not a game worth making videos
No one watch gw2 streams on twitch. It can’t even beat out ESO streams on twitch during peak hours. GW2 is not a fun game to watch on stream nor is it worth it to make videos and what not.

There is no content (especially PvE) in the game even worth making videos for….

What are you going to show off? speed clear dungs/soloing lvl 50 fracs? the same dull content thats been in the game for years lol??

This game is filled with casual players. You think they care about watching WvW/PvP videos or hardcore pve stuff? no, they just wanna run around and play dress up.

GW2 is not a game where you can make all kinds of videos and get tons of views…. Thats not how GW2 aims to get popular…

And would you argue that’s a good thing or a bad thing? I’d argue that’s quite bad and I hope HoT is gonna change that, more specifically raids.

PvP and WvW get quite a decent amount of views. Tequatl got quite some views too when it was new and people only just started to learn how to beat him. I hope raids will do the same and more. Hopefully it will put GW2 on the map and show everyone that GW2 deserves to be taken seriously as an MMO.

maddoctor.2738:

The legendary armors will be “exclusive” to raids because the armor precursors will only be available there, the rest of the items needed to craft the legendary armor won’t be only in raids, just the precursor pieces.

Yeah but that would still make the legendary armors exclusive to raids, as in, you can only get them if you do the raids to get the precursors.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m not an expert on WoW but my google searching skills are quite good if I say so myself and according to this list (just an example):
http://www.wowhead.com/guide=1240/mop-pve-gear-guide
best in slot PVE gear in World of Warcraft does not drop from the final boss only. Instead each boss rewards best-in-slot raid quality gear. You pick which item you want and go for it.

True but the really rare and unique gear (that’s not better than other BiS gear but still sought after for their rareness, unique skins or value) only drop from the final boss.

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

If that’s how it’s gonna be, I will NOT be getting legendary armor. Screw that.

They only said the legendary armor precursors will drop in the raid. There is nothing that indicates that you will be able to get your legendary armor only by running a raid. Back in the old days of the first months, the devs said that they don’t want to make a game focused on instances that will attract all the players inside, making the open world a barren wasteland. Although they are adding raids, it doesn’t mean they forgot that and will allow raiders to play only raids and forget the rest of the game even exist (how other raiding work).

Now I don’t think crafting the legendary armor should be like crafting a legendary weapon, but they might require doing other content types.

I’m fairly certain they said that legendary armors will be exclusive to raids.

Which is another interesting detail. They said legendary armors, not legendary armor precursors.

It might very well be the case that the raid bosses will actually drop legendary armor pieces, already being legendary the moment they drop.

From http://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids

As part of rewards for raids, we’re introducing legendary armor. Conquering raid content will earn you the pieces to build legendary precursor armors, which can be forged into legendary heavy, medium, and light armor sets.

Legendary armors are not exclusive to raids. In the raid we will be able to get pieces to build the Legendary Precursors. It says “pieces” so in my opinion it makes sense to get different pieces from different bosses, and not only get them from the final boss.

The blog entiry ( https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/designing-challenging-content/ ) says this:

Secondly, raids will introduce the very first ever set of legendary armor. This isn’t any ordinary armor set! Similarly to legendary weapons, you’ll be able to change the stats that the armor provides. When entering combat, you’ll become a beacon of your heroic deeds as the armor set comes to life, animating around you. Only the bravest of heroes will be able to collect and craft these legendary threads.

While the last part does make it sound that the drops we get are precursors and not full legendaries, it does sound like the legendary precursor armors (and thus the legendary armors) will be exclusive to raids. Especially the part I bolded makes me believe the legendary precursors will be exclusive to raids.

Also, if you have played WoW or other MMOs you’ll know that typically the best rewards will only drop from the final boss. Maybe GW2 will be different but I doubt it, at least I hope not.

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

If that’s how it’s gonna be, I will NOT be getting legendary armor. Screw that.

They only said the legendary armor precursors will drop in the raid. There is nothing that indicates that you will be able to get your legendary armor only by running a raid. Back in the old days of the first months, the devs said that they don’t want to make a game focused on instances that will attract all the players inside, making the open world a barren wasteland. Although they are adding raids, it doesn’t mean they forgot that and will allow raiders to play only raids and forget the rest of the game even exist (how other raiding work).

Now I don’t think crafting the legendary armor should be like crafting a legendary weapon, but they might require doing other content types.

I’m fairly certain they said that legendary armors will be exclusive to raids.

Which is another interesting detail. They said legendary armors, not legendary armor precursors.

It might very well be the case that the raid bosses will actually drop legendary armor pieces, already being legendary the moment they drop.

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

maddoctor.2738:

Now if the legendary armor precursors are behind some heavy RNG only after the final raid boss is beaten I’ll be very very angry.

I’d actually love that, but that’s just me. :P

Well, not the heavy RNG part, but I do think you should only be rewarded with legendary armor pieces if you complete the full raid to the end.

The raid has 3 wings. Doesn’t it make sense to, at the very least, have different rewards on each wing????

Ofcourse. But what does “wing” mean anyway? Sounds to me like they will be similar to how “paths” work in dungeons.

So basically, every “wing” will be a whole raid in and of itself. And at the end of that raid you’ll get a piece of your legendary armor.

More likely, the final boss of wing A will drop all 6 precursor pieces (or maybe a box where you can choose which piece you want) and then the final boss of wing B and C will give you the materials you need to turn those precursors into legendaries.

If it turns out that the precursors for the armor have to be turned into legendaries the old-fashioned way (e.g. by crafting gift of mastery, gift of fortune and a 3rd gift and throwing them in the MF with the precursor) I’m gonna be so mad. I do NOT want to do 100% map completion THREE more times, nor do I feel like grinding gold for SIX full stacks of all T6 mats.

If that’s how it’s gonna be, I will NOT be getting legendary armor. Screw that.

maddoctor.2738:

Now if the legendary armor precursors are behind some heavy RNG only after the final raid boss is beaten I’ll be very very angry.

I’d actually love that, but that’s just me. :P

Well, not the heavy RNG part, but I do think you should only be rewarded with legendary armor pieces if you complete the full raid to the end.

Ohoni.6057:

LMAO you do realize you’re contradicting yourself now, right? What you just said here is in favor of challenging raids having better rewards than regular PvE content.

And I’ve said that’s fine, within reason. I long ago conceded the point that raids should tend to offer a higher quantity of reward over time than most other content, that’s fine. If you can earn like 5g per hour doing open world content, then maybe you could earn 7-10g per hour doing raids, more if you can complete them in better than average times. That’s all good. What I object to is raids having unique rewards, so that even if you do the other stuff for a thousand hours, you would never be able to earn the reward a raider could get in two hours.

You easily make 20-30g per hour in open-world content if you know how (and many people do know how). So if raids would only give gold as rewards, it should be more than 30g to make it attractive to the average player who just want the rewards.

The raid should also be easily beatable otherwise those players might as well just grind gold in open-world content. However, making the raids easy defeats the purpose of raids and it’s not what people asked for.

Thus your suggestion would not work. Raids need to be difficult (because that’s what people asked for) and they_need_ exclusive rewards to make them attractive for the average player.

Ohoni.6057:

Having multiple ways of getting the rewards invalidates certain ones. Putting it behind any of the above but also 1 invalidates 1 as a way of getting anything. Unless the grind in 2 or the rng chances for 3 are so insane that makes 1 worth the effort. All this provided 1 is actually more challenging.

No it doesn’t, because 1 is still the fastest route to earning it. Being able to make 100K over five years as a janitor does not invalidate being able to make it over three years as an IT guy.

But in that case you invalidate the other 3 options.

People will always go for the path of least resistance., even in interactive entertainment like videogames.

If 1 is the fastest options, people will only do 1.

If 2 is the fastest option, people will only do 2.

If 3 is the fastest option, people will rely on 3.

If 4 is the fastest option, people will only do 4.

In each case, the other three options are invalidated.

Your system simply just doesn’t work, not for high-value rewards at least.

Lets make an interesting bet.

I bet, that if the precursor collection mastery proves to be a quicker and more reliable way of getting precursors, then no one will grind gold or use the Mystic Forge anymore to get precursors (unless they want more than 1of the same precursor).

I also bet that if the precursor collection mastery proves to be more of a hassle than simply grinding gold to buy a precursor from the TP or using the MF, then people won’t bother with the precursor collection mastery at all.

Ohoni.6057:

And if this is true, as is so often asserted by supposedly pro-raid players, then they should not make raids, because clearly people don’t actually want to do them, they just want to get better rewards than other players.

No, they want to be challenged and rewarded properly for it. It’s not one or the other, it’s the combination of the two that people want.

Ohoni.6057:

You have zero basis for that claim.

I have a lot of basis for my claim.

1) The most popular MMO of all time is raid-heavy and rewards skilled play.

2) A lot of people over the course of 3 years have asked Anet for challenging content and better rewards, often a combination of the two.

3) Being challenged and rewarded properly for it is one of the key stones of game-design. It’s what most people find fun. Not just in GW2, but in general.

Ohoni.6057:

Then they shouldn’t make raids.

They should make raids. But they should make raids that give proper rewards equivalent to the challenge they pose. Which is what they’re doing now.

Ohoni.6057:

In some ways, but not relevant to this element. A single player game might offer difficulty modes, and let players freely choose between them. An MMO can’t reasonably offer difficulty modes,

Yes it can. Clearly you’ve never played any other MMO besides GW2.

GW1 had hard mode. And guess what? Hard mode in GW1 gave better rewards!

Raids in WoW have difficulty modes that players can freely choose between. And guess what? The more difficult versions of the raids give better rewards. What a surprise! It’s almost as if giving better rewards for more difficult content is good game design! Who would have guessed?

Ohoni.6057:

You have to respect your players choices, even when you disagree with them.

I respect your choices, I just don’t think chatting in Divinty’s Reach should entitle you to the same rewards as an hardcore raider.

Ohoni.6057:

You left out the “for me” portion there, which is essential.

Nah not just for me, for the vast majority of gamers.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, but let’s say that they did that, except remove the last bit. Instead, it’s “I want to be challenged, defeated, challenged again, . . . and again, and again and again and again . . . and five years later I’m still trying and not good enough, and eventually they shut the game down and I never got past that bit.” Now let’s assume you personally are so great that this is an impossible scenario for you. But there are certainly people for whom it would be true. Do you assert that they too should “learn to love the bomb?”

I can assure you that those people would be in the vast vast vast vast minority. If this guy can beat difficult raids, then so can you or any other person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93xExjMAhg

(In case you don’t get it, that person is completely paralyzed. He can only move his head and he controls the game entirely with his mouth and head.)

Ohoni.6057:

Or what about people that do overcome the challenge, at least once, and can do it again, but genuinely do not enjoy the experience and do not want to repeat it? Given that it’s fairly safe to assume that repetition will be mandatory to max out the rewards on one of these things, why should they keep doing it, if the “challenge” portion is already out of the way, and they genuinely do not enjoy the content itself?

They don’t HAVE to do it. And they also don’t NEED legendary armor. They can perfectly decide NOT to do raids and thus NOT get their legendary armor.

“But I want it!” is not a valid argument. Life doesn’t always give you what you want and you can’t always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes people are going to have things you don’t have. Such is life. Just deal with it.

Ohoni.6057:

There are advocates of all four.

O really? I’d like to see the people who advocate for number 2 (insane grind) or 4 (limited time available).

Most people I know hate number 2 and 4. In fact I’ve never met anyone who genuinely likes 2 of 4.

Ohoni.6057:

I think the solution most people would favor though is “don’t have unnecessary scarcity.” Just set reasonable goals for people to earn things, and let as many exist as people want to go for.

I agree. And there is NOTHING unreasonable about putting legendary armor behind difficult raids.

Ohoni.6057:

Use all four methods, just don’t dial them up so high. Have it so that there is a method by which you can grind for a reasonable amount of time to earn the item. Have another method where you can instead use high skill, and get it a reasonable amount faster that way. Have it able to drop from RNG under certain circumstances, either the fastest or slowest method, depending on your luck. And sure, have limited time options too, cases where the method of earning it is faster/easier if you get it within a certain window.

I think that’s the best way to do it. Let the player decide for himself which method he prefers.

That would devalue the rewards. As I already said a million times, legendaries in GW2 aren’t very special or meaningful, and I have explained to you why.

I’m all for SOME rewards being available through different means. I find that perfectly acceptable. But I also think SOME rewards should be highly exclusive and limited behind specific game content.

Ohoni.6057:

Not even remotely true.

Absolutely 100% true.

Again, if this guy can do it, then so can you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93xExjMAhg

Ohoni.6057:

My point was just, players who spend more money DO bring more worth to the game, while players who play better do not bring more worth. I don’t mean that to say that a skilled player is worth less than an unskilled one, just that they are not worth more, they are worth equal, and neither player deserves bonus rewards due to his skill, because that skill does not bring value to the game. If a player is killed, then that is great for him, but it is something that only matters to him, and should only be rewarded by his own self-esteem.

And again you have it backwards. It’s not even about what a player is “worth” (as you said, we’re all worth equally, at least all of us who seriously play this game). That completely doesn’t matter and is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.

What is relevant is what is good game design, what is considered fun by most people, THAT is what matters. Games that reward skilled play are often more fun and fun games sell better. It’s really that simple.

Ohoni.6057:

But most content should not be like that, each phase should reward roughly equivalent to their own difficulty, not each being more rewarding than the last.

LMAO you do realize you’re contradicting yourself now, right? What you just said here is in favor of challenging raids having better rewards than regular PvE content.

You said it yourself, content should reward roughly equivalent to their difficulty. If raids are significantly more difficult than the rest of the game, then the rewards should be significantly better.

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t need challenge to generate scarcity.

There are only 4 ways of creating scarcity:

1) Putting it behind challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a huge grind wall.

3) Putting it behind insane RNG.

4) Making the item available for only a very limited time.

Now which one of those 4 options do you think most people find the most fun? Which one of those 4 options do you think most people find fair and acceptable?

The game is full of 2,3 and 4 and they all have massive problems. The 1s are very few, let’s see if having more will be a good thing or not.

In any case if they use method 1 for the raid rewards, they can always add the raid rewards using methods 2 or 3 at some time in the future. But starting the rewards with method 2,3 or 4 will never give the opportunity of using type 1.

I agree.

Preferably I’d like the rewards from method 1 to be different from the rewards gained through method 2, 3 or 4, for reasons I’ve already stated in this thread. I’d like my rewards to be an indicator that I’ve managed to beat the content that the reward belongs to. It makes the rewards feel even more rewarding. I’m sure many others feel that way too.

What is your stance on that though? Just curious. I’ve heard Ohoni’s stance a million times now. I’m curious what other people think.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but that isn’t really the point I was making. The point I was making is that it is likely that even if you add up every penny put into this game by people who really want to raid, it would not add up to the budget spent on paying people to make raid content and rewards, meaning that portions of that budget would have been paid by players who don’t particularly enjoy raiding.

How do you know? Do you have numbers? Or are you just guessing?

Because I don’t think what you say is true. If adding raids to GW2 was not profitable for Anet, they wouldn’t do it.

Therefor I doubt what you say is true. I highly doubt that. Because in your assumed situation it would not be profitable for Anet to develop raids .

Ohoni.6057:

That being the case, if they are going to lock rewards away from us that could have gone to us if raiding were not a thing, it needs to be justified to us why we are paying to subsidize rewards that we are arbitrarily not allowed to have.

No, Anet doesn’t have to justify anything to you. If you’re not happy with Anet’s business practices (which really aren’t all that outlandish, considering 99% of all games on the market follow a similar formula) then simply don’t buy HoT. It’s that simple.

Ohoni.6057:

Not even remotely, which was my point. A pro-baller is paid millions, because he brings millions in for his team. He has earned his salary. An awesome raider adds NOTHING to the rest of the game.

And once again you’re missing the point completely.

People who buy HoT for raiding earn Anet money, which is all that matters.

Ohoni.6057:

There is no reason for the GAME to reward his services as a raider, because the GAME does not benefit in any way from it.

Yes there is. If the rewards for raids weren’t proportional to the challenge the raids offer then there would be no incentive to do those raids.

You can say “yeah but shouldn’t you enjoy raids for the challenge and no the rewards?” but that’s simply not how it works. Wiping 100+ times on a raid is only fun as long as you know that you’ll get something extremely awesome at the end when you do succeed, something you’d otherwise not be able to get.

Anet is smart enough to realize this, you clearly aren’t.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but players of any skill level can do this with any sort of content, some of GW2’s more popular videos are just Wooden Potatoes doing any silly thing he thought up that the game does not have any rules for.

Funny that you mention Wooden Potatoes. He’s actually on my side. He feels the same way about GW2’s current lack of challenging content as I do. He also feels the same way about raids as I do. I’m sure Wooden Potatoes will stream his raid attempts when HoT comes out and I’m sure it will draw in a lot of viewers, possibly even more than his current “silly content”.

I fact, the vast majority feel the same way as Wooden Potatoes and I do. That’s why raids and the rewards are designed the way they are. You my friend, are the very tiny but very vocal minority.

Ohoni.6057:

And we’ve already been over the fact that myself, and most other players do not have a problem with them adding the raids themselves, we have a problem with those raids including rewards that non-raiders might reasonably want to have.

Stop you there bro. YOU have a problem with those raids including rewards that non-raiders won’t get. There is no “we”. Only you and a very few others feel that way. The vast majority feels the same way I do.

Ohoni.6057:

Take the rewards out of the equation and I’m perfectly content to live and let live.

Yes, YOU. But the vast majority would not. There would be no incentive to play raids and raids would quickly become a barren wasteland, only played by a very small amount of people. Raids would then end up the same way dungeons ended up in GW2. That’s a mistake Anet won’t make twice. Hence raids will have exclusive, valuable rewards that you can’t get anywhere else in the game.

Is it bribing people into playing raids? Maybe. But it works and the majority of people are content with it.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure you can, you just make challenging content without better rewards.

Which would be bad game design. Look, I don’t like to wave around my credentials in an argument like this nor do I wish to bring my personal life into this, but in this case I feel like I have to: I’m a game designer myself. Not a hobbyist game designer. A professional one.

So, take it from me, as a professional game designer, that challenging content without better rewards would be poor game design.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s shockingly simple, really. There are thousands of games on the market that have an “easy mode” and a “hard mode” and maybe a “nightmare mode” or somesuch, and offer absolutely no reward differences between these modes, except perhaps an added achievement, which you’ve already dismissed as being “not reward enough.” This idea that “with difficult content must come great rewards” is nonsense.

Actually, many of those games do give you extra rewards when you play them on higher difficulties or beat them within a certain time-limit.

And those games that don’t give you any extra rewards for playing/beating them on higher difficulty settings, are those games singleplayer games or multiplayer games?

You don’t need to answer that question, because I already know the answer. They’re all singleplayer games, which is an entirely different beast than multiplayer or MMO games.

Ohoni.6057:

If you aren’t enjoying the content, then stop doing it. do something else instead. It’s ok. No reason you should be doing content that you don’t enjoy. There are some people that enjoy the feeling of finally overcoming difficult content after the 101st try, and for those people, they might push through it, but if all you’re looking for is the prize, if that’s what’s important to you, then you should have other methods of earning it.

I never said that challenging content isn’t fun to me. It is. But not nearly as fun as challenging content with a nice prize at the end. But that’s the thing. Challenging content is fun as long as there is a grand price waiting for you at the end.

You also seem to have missed that I (and many others) don’t want the prize just handed to us (which is what you want) because it wouldn’t feel like much of a prize in that case.

I want the prize, but I want to earn it. I want to be challenged, defeated, challenged again, overcome the challenge and finally earn the prize.

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t need challenge to generate scarcity.

There are only 4 ways of creating scarcity:

1) Putting it behind challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a huge grind wall.

3) Putting it behind insane RNG.

4) Making the item available for only a very limited time.

Now which one of those 4 options do you think most people find the most fun? Which one of those 4 options do you think most people find fair and acceptable?

I know you’d personally never answer “number 1”, but that’s just you. I can tell you, the vast majority of players do find number 1 the most appealing options out of those four options. Or maybe a combination of 1 and 3. But absolutely nobody likes 2 and 4. At least no one I know.

Ohoni.6057:

And system designed to create haves and havenots based on factors outside their control is inherently flawed.

I agree. Which is what scarcity through RNG does. That’s why I’m not a huge fan of RNG either.

A system designed to create haves and havenots based on challenge doesn’t do that though. In such a system, you are entirely in control of whether you become a have or stay a havenot.

Ohoni.6057:

And that’s kind of the problem because even if you are one of the top 10%, or even one of the top 1%, that doesn’t mean you’ve earned anything better than the bottom 1%.

Euhm, yes it does.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re both just customers, and your only worth to the game is in how much each of you has put in. If you, with your “top 1% play” only put in $120 over the life of the game, while they, with their “bottom 1% play” have put in $121, then they are worth more than you are, and they have earned greater rewards than you have by the only measure that actually matters.

Euhm no, that’s not how it works. It maybe works like that in pay2win games, but GW2 isn’t p2w.

But sure, lets go with you faulty logic. I’ve bought GW2 twice, both the core game and HoT (as in: I own 2 copies of GW2 and 2 copies of HoT). I’ve spend quite a bit of money on gems as well. So, according to your logic, I’m worth more than you are. And because I’m worth more than you, I deserve more than you do.

So there you have it. Now gimme my exclusive rewards Anet. You’ve heard it. I paid more than most people, so I obviously deserve my exclusive rewards.

(Obviously I’m not serious in that last paragraph, I’m just pointing out how ridiculous your argument is, in case you didn’t get it and take my last paragraph at face-value.)

I’m 99% sure the aggro in GW2 is based on your armor stat. Mobs will go for the person with the highest armor stat.

So if you play a guardian in Knights or Soldiers gear, it is quite likely that you’ll pull a lot of aggro initially because of your insane armor stat.

However, this is not always true. Not all mobs function this way. Some will go after the person who has done the most damage, some will go after the person closest to said mob and some have scripted events where a mob will target a random player within a certain range.

However, most trash mobs will typically go after the person with the highest armor rating, at least initially. That is my finding at least.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

So let’s hope most items will be more like what many here expect from Raids.. while we of course still don’t know of that will also be just a currency-grind. I would not be surprised. But let’s hope it’s not!

They will add one new currency for each legendary armor piece

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Personally I hope the first raid will be really hard, but with a guaranteed precursor drop at the end.

Then in the other raids that will come later, they should add a guaranteed drop of the materials you need to turn that precursor into a legendary piece of armor.

That way, by succesfully doing all raids a bunch of times, you’ll be able to complete your legendary armor set.

This would not be a grind, because the raids will be really challenging and whenever you manage to overcome that challenge it will bring you a big step closer to your legendary armor. It would still take a long time to get your complete legendary armor because you’ll fail each raid a whole bunch of times before completing it, but it wouldn’t feel like a grind because you only have to successfully complete each raid a few times.

That’s how I see it, and that’s how I hope raids will be.

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is more demanding than other content, but what about that makes it more entitled to superior rewards?

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, it doesn’t automatically follow. Remember, it’s only more demanding because raiders asked for it to be so. You are basically saying, that it should have superior rewards, because you’d like it to have superior rewards.

It being more demanding doesn’t make it objectively a superior type of content. You may attach some kind of worth to it, but it’s just your personal preference, nothing more.

That’s not how it works.

Challenging content and better rewards go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other.

Without valuable rewards, the challenging content wouldn’t be worth playing. A challenging itself might be fun, but getting wiped 100 times on a raid boss is not really fun if there isn’t a grand prize waiting for you at the end.

On the other hand, the grand prize wouldn’t be a valuable if anyone could get it with no real challenge. Scarcity adds value to an object, that’s how it works, both in real-life and in videogames.

I want epic rewards, I want that grand, limited, exclusive prize. But I want to earn it. I want to be challenged for it.

When I get that grand prize, I want to feel that I got it because I earned it, because I managed to overcome a difficult challenge, because I managed to become among the top 10% best players of the game. I want to have that grand prize because I earned it and I want others to not have it because they didn’t earn it.

A lot of people feel this way. This is just how the human psyche works. That’s why games are designed the way they are. That’s why raids in HoT will have exclusive legendary armors.

Ohoni.6057:

You clearly did not read my prior example where I clearly explained this very principle, and why basketball players are entitled to rewards because of the value they ADD to the world, and why this in no way applies to raiders.

I did read it and dismissed it as irrelevant.

Raiders add as much value to the world as pro-baseball players do.

To me, as a potential raider, other fellow raiders are very valuable. More so if they’re skilled.

To Arenanet raiders are very valuable because they bought and actively play the game. Especially the people who bought HoT specifically for the raids (and who otherwise might not have bought HoT) are valuable to Anet. They’re extra players (and thus extra income) that otherwise might not have bought or played GW2/HoT.

On top of that, raids can create a new culture in GW2 (aka “raid culture”) that adds new value to the game, even beyond the game itself. Many raiders record and upload their (successful) raid attempts to YouTube, because they’re fun to watch and sometimes educative for fellow raiders who have yet to beat the raid.

Thus it gets GW2 more publicity and will potentially draw in more players who see these raid videos and think “hey, this is awesome, I wanna give this a shot myself!”.

We’ve already been over this. Anet has to expand their horizon and real new players in while keeping old players interested in the game. Many people want raids. Thus Anet added raids to the game.

Of course the raids need proper rewards to make them more appealing. Difficult content should have higher rewards. I know you disagree with that, but I don’t care. That’s how it is. That’s how games are designed, as it has proven to be a successful game-design formula over the past 2 decades. You can cry about it as much as you want but it won’t change the facts.

Ohoni.6057:

Because I’m helping to pay for them to make the content you’re playing, and for the rewards that you’re earning. Unless the active raiders make up a significant portion of the community, they cannot claim to be paying their own way.

No you aren’t. You’re paying for the content you’re playing. You contribute absolutely nothing to the raids or the raiding culture.

If everyone was like you and nobody wanted raids, HoT wouldn’t have raids. Clearly many people do want raids and will buy HoT specifically for the raids. These raiders bring in extra revenue to Anet that they otherwise wouldn’t get. Therefor Anet added raids to GW2.

The raiders pay for their own content, just like you pay for your own content.

Besides, simply buying the game doesn’t entitle you to all the rewards within that game. It simply doesn’t. That’s not how reality works. Buying the game entitles you to playing the game. That’s all you’re entitled to. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you don’t like the way GW2 or HoT is designed, you’re free to leave and find yourself another game.

Ohoni.6057:

It doesn’t work that way. We sent our money into the void, ANet decided how to split it up. If I could have said “I’m sending you this $50, but you can’t spend any of it on raid content,” then that would be great, but it wasn’t an option.

It’s exactly how it works. How do you think Anet decided on where their development budget goes? You think they just throw a dart at the dartboard and let fate dictate what their budget will be used on? No, of course not. Their budget is based on demand.

People demand challenging content. People demand raids and people demand better rewards for more difficult content. So Anet listens and gives us exactly that.

Again, buying HoT doesn’t entitle you to anything. Your logic is completely backwards. You’re not giving your money to Anet so they can develop what you want. It’s the exact opposite. Anet develops what they want and then you can decide if you think what they developed is worth your 50 bucks. That’s how capitalism works. Vote with your wallet.

Ohoni.6057:

I have to say it because you don’t get it. Ideally you would understand this going into it.

You’re the only one not getting it. You’re the one who refuses to listen to logic, reason and reality, all while just repeating yourself 100 times as if that’s gonna make your backwards logic any more logical.

Ohoni.6057:

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, again, that’s nonsense. It’s like saying that good Basketball players are owed high salaries by Divine Right. It’s exactly this sort of attitude that poisons the game when raiding becomes involved. “I raid, therefore I am entitled to better things.”

No, it’s not nonsense. It’s perfectly reasonable. Higher prestige gets you higher rewards. That’s basic game design 101. It’s how every single videogame works and has worked since the dawn of time and for good reasons.

Just like it’s perfectly reasonable that good basketball players deserve higher salaries. You can argue all you want why they deserve higher salaries, but the point stands: they put effort into their sport, they become the best and they deserve higher salaries for it.

Ohoni.6057:

Those who receive great rewards in life are not because they have great skills, but because society values those skills, because those skills provide value to society.

So basically you’re saying they receive greater rewards because they do have greater skills. That’s literally what you’re saying.

They have greater skills so they get greater rewards.

So basically you agree with me. Good.

This cannot be applied to a game.

Yes you can, as it has been, in almost every single game in existence.

Ohoni.6057:

If you raid every week, what benefit does that do me? Why should I care?

Why should it do you any benefit? Why should I care if you care? You’re not the one raiding. You’re not helping me overcome that challenge. So you’re absolutely and completely meaningless to me.

Ohoni.6057:

Why should I reward you for that (or in this case, contribute to your reward)?

I don’t know what you’re smoking, but you’re not rewarding me for anything. The game is.

Ohoni.6057:

And yes, any reward you get as a raider is paid for by your fellow players, because we each contribute to the success of the game, regardless of how we play. The fewer the people who actually receive the Legendary Armor, the more people paid for you to have it.

That is complete and total utter nonsense. I don’t even get how you came to this. The only one who paid for the raids is the raiders. The raiders asked for raids in HoT. Anet saw there was a demand for raids, so they included it in HoT. Now the raiders paid for HoT so they can play those raids.

You paid for HoT for different reasons, but not for the raids. You didn’t contribute to the raiding in any – single – way. You didn’t ask for it. You didn’t pay for it. You’re not playing them and you’re not helping us getting our legendary armors.

So please, get off your high-horse and get real.

Ohoni.6057:

So why do those people owe you rewards? They don’t. It is a gift to you. Be grateful, not entitled, and don’t try to block others receiving the same gift.

I give up. You’re absolute insane. Your view on reality is so idiotic, egocentric, self-centered, self-serving and entitled, yet you have the nerve to call us, the normal gamers, the normal people who except normal games with normal reward systems, entitled. It’s baffling.

I’m seriously wondering how many (real) games you have played. If I had to guess, not many. Otherwise you’d realize how insane and outlandish your proposals/demands are.

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is more demanding than other content, but what about that makes it more entitled to superior rewards?

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

Windsagio.1340:

SkiTz.4590:

Windsagio.1340:

SkiTz.4590:

thats a replica skin. There is already replica skin for legendary armor (its called ascended). You have access to that already.

Did I miss something that said legendary armors get ascended skins instead of new ones?

its essentially a replica in terms of stats….
You aren’t statisically any better with legendary than ascended…

There are no true replica skins in this game. most of the heavily sought after skins are unique and rightfully so. For something as prestigious as legendary equipment, there shouldn’t be true replicas…. either get the real thing or don’t…thats what makes it unique… anet isn’t making some cheap knockoff of legendary skins…

You shifted sideways a bit there, from saying ‘its a replica skin’ to ‘there are no replica skins nor should there be’.

there are 3 unique things about legendaries.
Modifiable stats
Unique Skins (I’m including the particle effects)
Pretty purple description text

~~~

The one absolute non-starter is that it’s not a prestige item in several ways.

Wait, what? Legendaries are totally prestige items. Or at least they’re meant to be. I’d agree that the implementation of legendaries right now is kinda bad, and I’d definitely argue that earning legendary armor pieces through challenging content (raids) is a huge step in the right direction, but still, you cannot really argue that legendaries are definitely designed to be prestige items.

Setz.9675:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!

So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.

You’ve been informed wrongly.

Besides, the point still stands. Such an experience as I described is one of the keystones of the MMORPG genre and one of the driving points that keep people playing them. It’s also the reason why many people have stopped playing GW2, because GW2 as it is now can’t really offer such an experience. The closest thing that GW2 has are fractal skins, but that’s obviously not quite the same as getting a unique named item with lore and a story behind it.

Its shadowmourne that was obtained in ICC25hc, also you got less respect for having this than wielding the twin glaives of azzinoth during BC.

Its completely useless to debate this topic from here on out. The arguments are on the table now, what had to be said has been said. Anet took a stance, legendary gear in HoT means you beat specific difficult content. Deal with it. There are enough alternatives for gear and no one will bother pampering to entitlement issues.

Amen brother.

Lakanna.2073:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gene Archer.8560:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’ve been informed wrongly.
.

Actually he’s been informed correctly.

Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.

I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.

WoW has many extremely rare exclusive rewards, many of them being iconic weapons with a story and lore behind them. Getting such an item as a drop after beating a difficult raid boss is a joy, not just for the person who eventually gets the item but for the entire guild involved. Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.

So that whole story about giving the sword to your guardian was untrue, but that doesn’t matter, because the POINT was the reactions of the people who all saw this (imaginary) sword that you worked so hard to get?

First of all, the story was not untrue. I simply misremembered which weapon it was that dropped.

Second, the point of my story wasn’t the reaction of the people outside of the guild. The point of the story was how we as a guild had a lot of fun trying to beat a difficult boss and eventually see a very rare weapon drop that (at that point) almost nobody else in the game had. It’s a sense of accomplishment for the entire guild. Even though only 1 person actually got to own the weapon, we as a guild felt rewarded because we all made it possible through teamwork.

So far, GW2 has never come close to giving me that same kind of experience (which is odd, considering how Anet praised GW2 as the MMO where teamwork supposedly is one of the keystones, yet teamwork is not nearly as much rewarded in GW2 as it is in WoW). If Ohoni would get his way, we’d never get that experience in GW2.

GW2 already isn’t a very rewarding MMO and with Ohoni’s proposal, it would be an even less rewarding experience.

Gene Archer.8560:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.

I wouldn’t know, because I’ve never felt this. I mean, don’t get me wrong, seeing the weapon is cool. I wouldn’t argue that (though even then, personal aesthetics would come into play, so I may in fact not care at all as you walk around showing the weapon off).

But I’ve never cared an iota about the person the item is attached to.

I guess the best way to put it is: I’m not looking at -you- in awe. I’m looking at the -weapon-, because theoretically it’s the first time I’ve seen the weapon, and theoretically it’s a weapon that aligns with my personal aesthetics.

As for a correction to your example, and to illustrate my own: your friend didn’t get Frostmourne, but they probably got Shadowmourne, because that is a possible high rarity drop when paladins, warriors, and DKs are in a raid.

Shadowmourne is an axe, though, which have never had aesthetics that I have cared for. So in your example, had your friend waltzed into town and declared his obtaining of Shadowmourne, or just been noticed or whatever, I would be the guy taking a quick look, going “meh” and just going about my business.

So I generally don’t “get” that whole deal.

Sure, you’re absolutely right. Still, it would be awesome to see someone with Shadowmourne, especially if he/she was among the first to obtain it.

I still remember seeing Sunrise for the first time in GW2 shortly after launch. That was quite cool. But now that everyone and their mother has Sunrise (including myself), it’s no longer cool at all. Especially because it’s so easy to obtain a Sunrise. It just takes a lot of grinding or a credit card.

Scarcity and locking weapons behind challenging content adds value to the weapon. More so if the weapon has some cool lore behind it.

Making weapons easy to obtain devalues it. Especially if you can obtain it by literally doing whatever you want, which is what Ohoni proposes. The weapon would have no value at all, other than it’s aesthetic value, which makes the weapon a whole lot less interesting. Obtaining it would no longer be fun, it wouldn’t even really be a reward, considering you’re guaranteed to obtain it after a given amount of time. It would really be nothing more than just a participation trophy.

I dunno about you, but personally I couldn’t care less about participation trophies. Obtaining them doesn’t feel as a reward to me.

Kravick.4906:

Its been neglected so much that when ANet redid the trait system, they completely removed all the traits that affected underwater weapons and skills.

That’s actually not true.

Gene Archer.8560:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’ve been informed wrongly.
.

Actually he’s been informed correctly.

Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.

I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.

WoW has many extremely rare exclusive rewards, many of them being iconic weapons with a story and lore behind them. Getting such an item as a drop after beating a difficult raid boss is a joy, not just for the person who eventually gets the item but for the entire guild involved. Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.

Ohoni.6057:

Then as I said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2. Why are you still here?

I enjoy what I enjoy.

Yeah but clearly you’re not enjoying the majority of what GW2 has to offer, which makes one wonder if GW2 is the right game for you.

As I said earlier, maybe you should find another game that fits your desires. Second Life or IMVU seems to be more suited for what you are looking for. GW2 simply isn’t what you are looking for and never will be.

Ohoni.6057:

When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!

So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.

You’ve been informed wrongly.

Besides, the point still stands. Such an experience as I described is one of the keystones of the MMORPG genre and one of the driving points that keep people playing them. It’s also the reason why many people have stopped playing GW2, because GW2 as it is now can’t really offer such an experience. The closest thing that GW2 has are fractal skins, but that’s obviously not quite the same as getting a unique named item with lore and a story behind it.

Ohoni.6057:

I sense that you’re trying to “turn my words around on me,” but it doesn’t actually work in this case, because my happiness doesn’t require the sadness of others.

Yes it does. Your happiness would make me and lots of other players sad. Well, “sad” maybe isn’t the right word here, bored would be more accurate. Not feeling encouraged to play the game and get better at it and eventually quitting the game would be the result.

Ohoni.6057:

My happiness involves everyone getting the loot that they want, it involves everybody being happy, except for those people that can only take joy in the sadness of others, and there’s really no way to make them happy without making more people sad.

LMAO nice straw-man mate. Nice way of misrepresenting my side of the argument. Good job man.

Ohoni.6057:

No. It may not necessarily be challenging, but that doesn’t mean that it would be easy. It would still take a lot of time and effort, just not necessarily challenging effort. Building a mud brick wall across your yard is something anyone can do with enough time and some mud, that does not mean that it is “easy” work.

There are only 2 ways of making rewards hard to get:

1) Putting it behind difficult challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a long, tiresome and mind-numbing grind.

Your “ideal” system would turn everything in the 2nd option. I don’t see much fun in that. Building a mud brick wall across my yard is not something I enjoy doing. In fact I’d be amazed is there is ANYONE who’d enjoy doing that.

Ohoni.6057:

Which would be great, until someone liked the raid skin better and didn’t want to raid, which I hope you’ll agree is practically inevitable.

Sure, it will happen, but how often will it happen? I’m sure most people can live with the fact that they’ll never be able to get legendary raid armor if they never do raids. Most people will just suck it up, accept it and go for something different than the legendary raid armor. Most people are mature enough to realize that you can’t always have your cake and eat it too.

Ohoni.6057:

How about this. What if the non-raid version is the default, a cool looking skin, and the “raid” version is identical to it, except that every piece is emblazoned with “RAID” in big letters? I tend to think most non-raiders would be able to make due without that.

You’re not serious right? I don’t think it’s needed for me to point out how what you just said is absolutely ridiculous.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re making assumptions too, and in this case I’m not sure that they are reasonable ones. That may have been true of raids in other games, the “watch the UI and click when they tell you to” games, but this is an action RPG, so I imagine that if they aim for “challenging content” then it will involve actual movement and reflexes. I doubt that it would be entirely outside of my capabilities, but I think it’s fair to say that it would be well outside the capabilities of at least some GW2 players, given that many things like Fractals and JPs already prove too much for them.

Even if that’s true: so what? You can’t always have everything. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too.

I’m sure Anet will balance the raids in such a way that the vast majority of players will be able to beat them at some point after enough practice. Some will beat them faster than others, but I’m sure everyone will be able to beat them at some point. And if not, too bad. Not every Tour de France cyclist will wear that yellow shirt either. I’m sure they’ll survive and come to terms with it.

Ohoni.6057:

And again, as I’ve explained each of these points several times, “playing better” is an entirely personal thing that the game has no incentive to encourage.

And again, that is simply not true. Many areas of GW2 most definitely encourage people to play better (fractals, PvP, WvW and soon raids).

Ohoni.6057:

I think if there’s any failure to the achievements in GW2 it’s that many of them are easy to achieve and few of them are actually hard.

No, that’s actually the reason why achievements in GW2 are worthless.

Ohoni.6057:

If it were as difficult to earn achievements as it is to earn any “skin” in the game, and people could show those achievements off, I don’t see why people would not care about having that achievement.

True, that would definitely make achievements more fun and valuable. But getting an unique weapon or piece of armor that you can actually physically wear in-game will always be more fun and more valuable.

Ohoni.6057:

Stop trying to tell others what they should feel. If I feel forced, I feel forced, and there’s nothing you can say that would change that, all you have a choice about is whether to care or not, which you’ve already made clear.

You can feel all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The facts are that you aren’t forced to do anything.

Your feelz are not more important than the facts.

Ohoni.6057:

No, but neither would you be allowed to even participate in the Tour (I’m assuming, you might be a good cyclist) as it’s an exclusionary event for the best.

Irrelevant. Let’s assume that I am a professional cyclist. Would I be allowed to wear a replica yellow shirt during the race? Why not?

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is not an exclusionary environment, it’s intended for players of all skill levels to participate and enjoy themselves. There is no place for a “yellow jersey” in GW2, we’re all in the peloton.

You’re right, GW2 is indeed intended for all players of all skill levels. That does not however mean that there is no place of a yellow jersey in GW2 and it most certainly does not mean we’re all in the peloton.

There already are “yellow jerseys” in GW2. They’re just not that many and most of them are not that interesting.

Adding more “yellow jerseys” to GW2 will make the game better, more fun and it will encourage more players to keep playing to get that “yellow jersey”.

“Yellow jerseys” that you can simply buy or get with little effort aren’t that interesting and won’t be an incentive for people to keep playing.

Ohoni.6057:

Where did you get that number? The only thing I found that was close was when they announced that they had 460K concurrent players in 2013, and that’s actually fairly high for an MMO, since most players play at different times and sometimes on different days. Note that the 460K concurrency was their highest recorded concurrency (at that time), and was about a year after the game launched, well after the initial “where my raids” wave wandered off.

I don’t think you understand what “concurrent” means in this context. It basically means active players.

And no, 460k is not that much. It’s not bad, but it could be a whole lot more, considering the game sold 2 million copies at launch and 3 million more copies in the years after.

Ohoni.6057:

No, the worst case scenario is that, plus large numbers of the non-raiders becoming upset at raiders getting the best rewards, making them less interested in the game, and the community becoming soured by raid culture, and no longer being the warm community we’ve become used to. There are all sorts of potential negative impacts.

If nobody is playing the raids then there won’t be a “raid culture”, so what you say doesn’t make any sense. For a “raid culture” to exist, there has to be a fair amount of people playing them. If a fair amount of people are playing them, it means raids are a success.

Ohoni.6057:

Right, which is a problem, because either way they choose, they are having a less positive experience than they could be having if they did not have to choose.

That’s not true. Getting everything you want will usually become very boring very quickly.

Most players DON’T want every shiny handed to them on a silver platter for simply doing what they like doing with little effort put into it, because that’s in boring. Most players DO want exclusive rewards and DON’T mind it if there are rewards in the game that they’ll personally never get their hands on.

Seriously, if you’d have it your way, everyone in GW2 would be hella bored. I’m sure even you would get bored after a while.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t exactly dispute that, but I think it’s fair to say that the character customization element is a very strong component of the game, otherwise why would people even complain about their precious unique skins falling into the hands of the grubby unwashed masses? Nothing I’ve talked about does anything to undermine the MMORPG core gameplay, it just benefits the character customization sub-element.

You’re wrong, your idea DOES undermine the MMORPG core gameplay.

A roleplaying game isn’t just about the role of your character, but also the role of the items he/she acquires. Almost all MMOs are build in the premise of acquiring unique special items that have more meaning than just “they look nice”.

One of the most fun things in almost any MMO is killing a difficult boss, in the hope that he’ll drop his legendary greatsword and when he finally does, you’re excited because you have THE legendary greatsword of THE difficult boss, something almost nobody else in the game has.

When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!

Stuff like that gives intrinsic value to a weapon of piece of armor beyond just cosmetics. Such a weapon like Frostmourne has lore, it has a story behind it, it has a story behind how it was obtained, a story experienced and shared by many guild members. Such a weapon will be iconic. Such a weapon will appear in MAN AT ARMS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N6wQc6kbA8

The legendaries in GW2 as they are now have no such value, at all. I mean what is the story behind Sunrise? What is the lore behind it? What is the story behind obtaining it? Oh, there is none, other than “I grinded my kitten off” or “I bought it with my credit card”.

Ohoni.6057:

But they’ll also have access to all the fancy things from all the other game modes, so they don’t lose anything. They get all their fancy stuff PLUS other fancy stuff. All they would be “losing” is the right to lord their fancy stuff over people who don’t have it, and sorry if I can’t shed a tear over that. If those people have to be sad, then I’m perfectly content with them being sad, because their happiness can only come at the expense of others.

But the fancy stuff isn’t as fancy if any goon with enough gold or enough real money can get them. So they’ll lose quite a lot.

Luckily though, “those people” don’t have to be sad, cause “those people” are getting exactly what they want. They’re probably quite happy. You on the other hand, seem less happy. But I’m perfectly content with you being sad, because you are in the minority and your happiness can only come at the expense of others.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not saying that acquiring Legendary Armor should become an easy or fast task, just that it should not be restricted to a single role, or type of role.

But considering raids, fractals and PvP are the only difficult content in GW2, aqquiring legendary armor would by definition be easy if it’s not locked behind raids, fractals and/or PvP.

To make something hard to get, it has to be locked behind hard content.

And I’m not saying I’m against casual PvEers getting legendary armors. I’m just saying that they should get a different type of legendary armor. It will still be legendary, but it will not be the legendary RAID armor, which should be exclusive to raids.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s really no different than saying that everyone can become a Doctor or a Lawyer. It’s technically possible, but still unlikely.

Except not everyone can become a doctor or lawyer. Some people simply don’t have the learning capacity or the money to get a degree as a doctor or lawyer.

The same thing isn’t true for raiding. Anyone with fingers and eyes and at least a tiny bit of intelligence will be able to learn the raids and eventually beat them. Some might take longer to beat the raids than others, but literally anyone who plays GW2 can literally do them and get their legendary raid armor.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, I’m going to explain how the world works.

Snip long rant about how I’m supposedly acting as if the game owes me exclusive rewards for being good at it.

I never said that the game “owes” me anything. YOU’RE the one acting like the game owes you all the shinies. YOU’RE the one acting entitled, saying all the shinies should be available to you even if you don’t want to do raids/pvp/fractals/whatever.

I’m simply saying that exclusive rewards make the game better. It incentivizes people to play more, try different game-modes, get better at the game and get those shiny rewards that shows you’re the best.

Exclusive rewards make a game better, not worse (at least for the vast majority of people).

Ohoni.6057:

The skin should not be there as a mark of achievement.

And why shouldn’t it be? That’s the way it has always been. Not just in GW2, but in the vast majority of both single- and multiplayer games. It has been that way since the dawn of time, even before "achievements’ were a thing.

And it works. It incentivizes people to play the game, play the content and get better, more so than any “achievement badge” ever would (especially in GW2, where the “achievements” are pretty meaningless).

Ohoni.6057:

That is entirely your subjective experience. To someone else who wants that reward but does not at all enjoy the content to which it is locked, “working hard to become good” would be a form of torture. If you want to lock something up like that as a personal goal, then that’s fine, but don’t try to force it onto others.

Not just my subjective experience, but that of many others too. In fact I’d say the majority of gamers feel the way I feel. People like you are in the minority.

And stop with the “forced” nonsense. You’re not forced to do anything. You can perfectly ignore raids if you want. You don’t have to do raids to enjoy the rest of the game.

Ohoni.6057:

If you feel that it makes things more rewarding to have a goal like that, then you can always set it yourself.

Which is not nearly as fun as having a tangible in-game goal that will give you an exclusive reward to show for it once you’ve beat it.

I’m not paying Anet 50 euro so I can set my own imaginary goals that wont give me any rewards for completing them.

Ohoni.6057:

Because you said, and I quote: "A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. "

So a replica “yellow jersey” might not be the “real thing,” but it is indistinguishable from the real thing, which is exactly like what a skin is. So all we’re asking is the ability to earn an indistinguishable replica of the desired prize, and you seem to agree that this is ok.

sigh This has already been debunked by another person, but I’ll debunk it again.

Would I be allowed to wear the indistinguishable replica of the yellow shirt as a participant in the Tour de France race? Why not?

The answer to that question should give you a clue why I’m against homogenizing all the rewards in GW2 and making everything available everywhere.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and the game went on fine without those people because they were loud but few in number.

LMAO! Yeah no, they were not loud and DEFINITELY NOT few in number. Over 2 million people have bought Guild Wars 2 at launch. Only 460 thousand people are still playing. That means 75% of all the people who bought the game at launch have quit playing the game.

Over the course of the last 3 years, GW2 has sold an additional 3 million copies, yet the active playerbase has barely grown since August 2013.

Clearly, GW2 is not capable of keeping their players. This is in large because of the lack of endgame content.

Over those 3 years, many players have voiced concerns over the state of GW2. The lack of endgame content, the lack of raids and the lack of expansions were concerns that have been voiced by many people many times over. This is why we’re getting an expansion, this is why we’re getting raids.

Please, next time, use your brains or do a little research before you say nonsense like that.

Ohoni.6057:

If the players who “stormed off” due to GW2’s lack of raids were actually of any concern to ANet, you can bet that they wouldn’t have waited three years to try and correct the issue. If they were really concerned about raiders fleeing the game in significant numbers then there would have been a raid announced by the first Wintersday.

You’re delusional. You can think what you want but the numbers don’t lie. Clearly Anet was making enough of a profit that the lack of raids was of no immediate concern to them, but they are smart enough to realize that if they want GW2 to grow beyond its small niche fanbase that is has now, things have to change.

Ohoni.6057:

They know it’s a selling point with a certain market, and three years in they seem to be secure enough in their position to try and have their Limburger cakes and eat them too, and we’ll see how that’ll work out for them, but it’s a real gamble, and I don’t think they have any chance of picking up as many characters as they could stand to lose if they mess it up.

How is adding more diverse content to the game a gamble? That doesn’t make any sense. The worst-case scenario would be that people don’t like the raids in GW2, which means people won’t play them, which means Anet will drop the raids and not develop more raids in the future. That is the absolute worst-case scenario, which would be kinda bad for Anet, but nothing horrible.

That said, I’m confident that raids in GW2 will be a huge success.

Ohoni.6057:

The reason Wildstar failed has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it was focused on raiding.

Suuuuuure.

It’s true. But what would I know? It’s not like I played Wildstar since the beta and talked to lots of other Wildstar players… o wait, I have!

But hey, don’t take my word for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2CF5uaHTDg

Ohoni.6057:

Yes they should. Just as the 10% playing PvP should be entitled to rewards that the other 90% who don’t play PvP can’t have. Or the 10% playing WvW. Or the 10% doing fractals.

Nope, nope, and nope.

Yep, yep and yep.

Ohoni.6057:

Exclusive rewards are always unfair.

Nope, they aren’t.

Ohoni.6057:

What if people like the open world PvE reward better than the raid exclusive rewards?

Then they can play the open world PvE content.

Ohoni.6057:

What if they like the PvP better than the WvW?

Then they stick to PvP and work for the exclusive rewards in that.

Ohoni.6057:

What if two people can’t agree on which they like better, but the WvW guy likes the PvP exclusives and the PvP guy likes the WvW exclusives?

Then they have to decide which is more important to them: playing the game-mode they like or getting the exclusive skin.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s literally IMPOSSIBLE to balance exclusive rewards across multiple types of content, much more difficult than you guys have claimed my token-balancing system would be.

No it’s not impossible. And your “token-balancing system” would be boring and kitten. It would also be impossible to balance and it would promote mindless grinding even more than the current system does.

Ohoni.6057:

You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.

Maybe you should listen to your own advice. Right now you’re just a pot calling the kettle black.

Honestly it seems Ohoni is treating GW2 as dressup simulator, which is not the intent of the designers.

Maybe GW2 isn’t the game for him and he should play a dressup game instead? It seems that’s what he wants. I think Second Life or IMVU got you covered Ohoni. Maybe you should play that.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, I tend to agree, which is why I’m pushing for some changes so that players in both groups 1 AND 2 can play the mode they want, and get whatever rewards they might want. Either way though, I get the impression that people you placed in group 1 are somehow more noble than those you put into group 2, and I assure you, there is no case for that.

Except that’s not possible. You’ll never be able to please both groups equally. Making rewards non-exclusive will devalue the rewards and people who become particularly good at one specific game-mode will have nothing fancy to show for it. There is a reason why legendaries in GW2 are meaningless and not nearly as exciting to get as legendaries in other MMOs such as WoW. It’s because they’re non-exclusive and anyone with enough time spend in the game or with a credit card can get one.

GW2 is not a very rewarding game. The rewards in GW2 suck and it’s because it lacks any meaningful exclusive rewards. Getting a legendary is a boring grind that takes no skill. Meanwhile pulling off impressive feats in GW2 gives you nothing to show for it. it sucks.

GW2 getting meaningful exclusive rewards restricted to specific content will make the game better and more rewarding. People like you are just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it.

Ohoni.6057:

Anyone can get a Ferrari if they can put the money together. You can’t only get the Ferrari by working a single occupation, even a janitor could buy a Ferrari if he came into some money, or if he waited to buy a well used one.

That is completely nonsense and you know it. No janitor will ever be able to afford a Ferrari simply through hard work. Not in a million years. Only the people who work extremely well-paid jobs or people who win the lottery will be able to afford a Ferrari.

Unless you have extremely rich parents, a good job or win the lottery, you’ll never ever get a Ferrari and you know this.

Legendary armor will be no different. Well, it will be somewhat different, because in GW2 everyone is equal. Everyone can do raids and everyone can get good at them provided they spend enough time to learn their profession and the raid mechanics., unlike real-life where sometimes the cards are just stacked against you and no matter how hard you work you’ll never be able to land that fantastic job that enables you to afford that Ferrari.

Ohoni.6057:

People might use Ferrari as a status symbol, but that was not their intent. Their intent was to be the best car possible, and that ended up costing money, so only the wealthy can afford them. And the same should be true of Legendary Armor in the game, it should take time and effort to earn, but whether that time and effort is spent in Raids, or PvP, or WvW, or dungeons, or open world, or whatever, that time and effort should be honored.

Except that’s not how the world works. You’re saying that because a janitor works just as hard at his job as a STEM-researcher, he should be equally rewarded. No, you’re not even arguing he should be equally rewarded, you’re arguing he should get THE EXACT SAME reward as the STEM-researcher.

Can’t you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I mean don’t get me wrong, when it comes to GW2 I fully believe that hard work should be paid off. I believe that everyone who manages to pull of an impressive feat should get something to show for it. However, homogenizing the rewards is not the way to go.

If I’m a PvPer and I manage to become the best, and all I get is a piece of armor that basically any person with a credit card or anyone who grinded enough hours in PvE can also get, the piece of armor will not feel very rewarding. The piece of armor will not have any identity, it will just be another meaningless skin that anyone can get.

Having exclusive rewards will make the rewards themselves better and feel more rewarding, which in turn will make working hard to become good so you get that one piece of unique swag that nobody else has that much more fun.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, so you’re cool with people just being able to get the skins then. Problem solved.

O my god are you serious? No I’m not. I don’t even get how you came to that conclusion.

Ohoni.6057:

Probably, but there are plenty of other F2P MMOs out there, so the price isn’t the only factor involved. Lack of raids is one of the few selling points that GW2 still currently has over the competition.

LMAO are you serious? The lack of raids is actually one of the many reasons people stopped playing GW2 after they reached lvl 80 and got bored because GW2’s lack of endgame PvE content. It’s not a selling point at all, it’s actually hampering GW2’s sales and growth. Anet knows this. That’s why they are adding raids in HoT.

GW2 is still one of the best F2P MMOs and that’s certainly a reason why many people choose GW2 over another F2P MMO, but the lack of raids are not a selling point. If it was then Anet wouldn’t be adding raids in HoT now would they?

Ohoni.6057:

And let’s not forget the raider’s Valhalla, Wildstar, which took the MMO world by storm last fall (which is to say, it was over within a few hours).

The reason Wildstar failed has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it was focused on raiding.

I played Wildstar, and the reason I’m not playing it anymore is because the combat in that game sucks, the raids are actually not that well balanced and designed (which is unacceptable for a game focused on raids), the PvP in it sucks and ultimately it’s just a very poorly designed game with many archaic and outdated design concepts that were considered good back in the vanilla WoW years but simply aren’t acceptable anymore in 2014-2015.

Ohoni.6057:

First, I really doubt there will be a lot of those disgruntled raiders that will buy HoT. People who bought GW2 and were dissatisfied with the endgame are not likely to shell out another $50 to give them another shot at it. The people buying HoT are people already playing and enjoying the game for what it is.

And this is where you’re wrong. I know plenty of people who quit GW2 because they were bored (because of the lack of endgame content) who are now coming back for HoT.

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, but those 10% should not feel entitled to rewards that the other 90% can’t have.

Yes they should. Just as the 10% playing PvP should be entitled to rewards that the other 90% who don’t play PvP can’t have. Or the 10% playing WvW. Or the 10% doing fractals.

Exclusive rewards aren’t unfair if EVERY game-mode gets their own exclusive rewards, which is what I’m advocating for, which is what we already kinda have and which is what we’re gonna get more of in HoT (which I’m very happy about).

Lakanna.2073:

I actually looked up the LotRO article mentioned earlier in the thread. Raiders were a large majority of the forum posters, and easily the loudest voices. When they stopped making new raids, the numbers came out: raiders were less than 10% of the entire community. I’d LOVE to see the numbers for GW2 in 6 months, in a year. See how many of the raiders are still raiding, see how many people are actually doing this content they spent however much time and effort on. I bet we see similar numbers.
If they have to make the raids drop exclusive loot just to get people to play them, then that’s the way it goes. I’m willing to bet that raids go the way of dungeons, eventually: not enough people playing them and enjoying hem to justify spending more dev time on them.

I never played LOTR:O but 10% is a huge number. If 10% of the playerbase in GW2 would actively play raids it would be really good and worth investing more dev time on.

I mean just look at how much different types of content we have. We have the personal story, map completion, dungeons, fractals, PvP, WvW, world bosses, the Living World story, jumping puzzles and the Silver Wastes. That’s 10 types of content that people can play.

Not everyone will be playing everything, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be there. If 10% of the entire GW2 playerbase would actively participate in raids then raids will be considered a huge success.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m saying that aesthetically pleasing items should never exist ONLY as status symbols. If people want the item for the aesthetic alone, they should be able to get it without having to meet the measure of what would earn them “status.”

So you’re saying that a Ferrari should never exist?

I mean a Ferrari car is aesthetically pleasing. It also has functionality as a vehicle. It’s also a status symbol, a car that only the very rich among us can get, driving a Ferrari shows to everyone that you have it made.

Exclusive armor skins that are rewarded for difficult content are no different. They are aesthetically pleasing, they have functionality and they are a status symbol.

Just because you don’t like their existence because you might never get a Ferrari, doesn’t mean Ferrari’s shouldn’t exist.

Ohoni.6057:

Oho?

https://www.google.com/gws_rd=ssl#q=tour+de+france+yellow+jersey&safe=off&tbm=shop

A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. Me being able to get a replica of the yellow shirt would be equivalent to me modding Sunrise into Skyrim and using Sunrise in that game. It’s completely irrelevant.

Ohoni.6057:

Except that the value of all rewards is entirely subjective,

Stop right there bro. You’re wrong. The value of all rewards is not entirely subjective. Just look at the Trading Post prices. Eternity is objectively more valuable than Sunrise. Sure, I might like Sunrise more. In fact I could have crafted Eternity but I didn’t because I prefer Sunrise over Eternity. That doesn’t mean Eternity isn’t objectively more valuable than Sunrise though, it obviously is.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve played dozens of MMOs before this one,m but found them largely unsatisfying and didn’t stick with any of them even half as long as I have GW2. I imagine the same is true for a lot of GW2 players. I believe that GW2’s success is in people who like the concept of MMOs, but who were driven away from other MMOs by features that GW2 deliberately avoided, like paid subscriptions or raiding culture. GW2 succeeded by not being a WoW clone. If people are happy with how other MMOs do things, they are too busy playing those games to be playing GW2.

I think you’re being naive and idealistic. I’m sure the vast majority of us who play GW2 are doing so because it’s buy2play (now free2play) as opposed to a monthly subscription game. I’m sure if GW2 would become a monthly subscription game a lot of us would abandon GW2. Some of us might go back to WoW (although from what I’ve heard WoW isn’t as good anymore as it used to be, but I wouldn’t know as I haven’t played WoW anymore since WoTLK).

Now don’t get me wrong, I obviously do like GW2 and I do think GW2 does certain aspects better than WoW, but there are a lot of things that WoW does better than GW2, two of those things are endgame content and rewards.

I’m therefor glad to see that GW2 is catching up and giving us raids with exclusive legendary rewards in HoT. That certainly seems like a giant step in the right direction to me and will definitely blow new life in GW2.

Lakanna.2073:

And “you have to do what I did to EARN your right to this weapon skin” makes you sound like a smug elitist. Not that you’ve said that, but others have. I see the game as a game: meant to be entertaining and fun. I HAVE a full-time job where I do things that I sometimes don’t enjoy to earn the things I want. It’s called “work” and not “play” for that very reason. I log into a game to enjoy some downtime, NOT to just spend yet more time doing things I don’t think are fun to get something I want.
Challenging content can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But when you have to do the content for the reward and not because it’s what you want to be doing, then it’s a flaw in the content or a flaw in the reward system. And as I mentioned before, just because its traditional to lock good rewards behind raids, doesn’t mean that it will work for GW2, which has been almost aggressive about giving players options, alternatives, and choices about how they want to play the game.

Edit: It isn’t “they shouldn’t get exclusive things.” It’s “nobody should get exclusive skins.” Titles, sure. And I’m not pushing for exclusive skins for my way of playing and for nobody else: that would, to me, be stupid, selfish, and unnecessary. It creates conflict within the community for no real benefit to the game. But that’s part of what I’ve said before too.

I don’t see how any of this ties into exclusive skins. If you don’t like doing raids, fine, don’t do them. Nobody is forcing you. You’re only forcing yourself because you somehow act OCD about getting all the shiny skins.

When I look at this thread, I generally see 2 types of mindsets.

1) People who just stick to playing the game-modes they enjoy. They want to get good at it and want to be rewarded for it. They want to have something to show for their dedication to their game-mode of choice.

2) People who want ALL the latest goodies and shinies and therefor play ALL the content related to those shinies, even if they don’t like that content, because they MUST have those shinies. Eventually they become frustrated and GW2 is no longer fun to them, so they go to the forums and complain about exclusive rewards.

Personally I belong to group 1. It seems you and Ohoni belong to group 2. That’s why you’re complaining about “having to do content for the reward” because that’s how you play the game.

Obviously, the problem isn’t exclusive rewards, the problem is your greedy hoarder mentality.

Lakanna.2073:

I can’t keep up with the thread all the time, and quite honestly, Ohoni seems to be doing well enough defending his position that people are reduced to attacking him instead of his position.

Sorry but no, neither you nor Ohoni are doing good job at defending your position or bringing any valid arguments to the table.

Basically, all the anti-exclusive rewards burn down to: “I want to get all the shinies in the game by simply doing what I like doing. All the players who play content that I don’t like doing should not in any way ever get exclusive shinies.”

Sorry, but that just makes you sound like an entitled spoiled child. That’s not a personal attack, that’s not even an insult, it’s just how your arguments sound to me.

Edit: I’d have at least a bit of sympathy for your position if raids would give a new exclusive higher tier of armor, but it doesn’t. Legendary armor will in no way be better than ascended armor, which you can already get and likely already have. So really all we’re talking about is exclusive skins that raiders will be able to get and non-raiders won’t. If that’s not something you can live with, then that’s your problem.

Ohoni.6057:

I mean how far do you want to take this “inclusive” approach Ohoni? Do you think the exclusive dungeon armors (that you can only get by grinding the specific dungeon that the armor belongs to) should no longer be exclusive?

They aren’t you can also get them via PvP reward tracks. But yes, I would also open them up to PvE reward tracks, and allow you to trade one type of dungeon token for another, at a lossy exchange rate.

What about the Order armors (Vigil, Whispers and Priory armors), should they no longer be exclusive to the specific Order they belong to?

Hmm. Interesting one. I’m less concerned about this one as you only need to get one character up to the level 50 story for each and you can trade all the pieces between characters after that, but sure, once you become Pact Commander I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to buy from the other orders as well.

What about the Tequatl weapons that you can only get from Tequatl’s Hoard, a box that only drops from successfully killing Tequatl?

Or what about the Triple-Trouble Jungle Wurm armors?

Both should drop “Tequatl tokens” and “Great Wurm” tokens respectively, so that players of those events who never get the drop will be able to save up and buy the weapons/armor directly from an NPC. These tokens should also be available, in smaller numbers, from PvP and PvE reward tracks, and as some sort of daily event achievements related to Sparkfly and Bloodtide. These alternative methods should not be as efficient as running the two core events on a daily basis, and considerably less so if you’re lucky enough to get the drops directly, but they should provide an alternative, slower path for those that do not wish to do those events.

Obviously a piece of armor is much more than just a fancy decoration item. Sometimes a piece of armor represents something. Sometimes it sends a message. Sometimes it shows off that you have done a specific activity and sometimes it shows off you’re the best at something.

And as I’ve pointed out, there are ways of sending that message that don’t involve fancy clothing, and those methods should be used instead. In the real world, you can choose to send a message to someone by writing it on haute couture, and shipping it to them, but you can also send it on common stationary in an envelope, and this is typically the preferred method.

Your version of GW2 sounds incredibly boring. God am I glad you’re not a designer at Anet.