Guild Wars 2

DiogoSilva.7089:

No. That was entirely from an elementalist’s point of view.

Yeah, pretty easy to tell. Play necro, see what effect you have on a team fight with x/x/x/30/30 ele round.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mammoth.1975:

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

In my opinion, a bunker elementalist overloaded with condition cleansing is worse at countering the condi-spam necros than a glass cannon.

That’s nice. Never played a necro huh?

Sepreh.5924:

2. Make Close to Death apply only to direct damage and not condition damage. Do the same for thieves executioner

That’s a great idea. This thread is so relevant.

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

Krilce.7864:

Even full condi cleanse builds can’t keep up with the amount of conditions that can be applied in mere seconds. Guess that’s why everybody is running full condi team comps mate.

Once again, if you can clear 3 conditions every 20-30 seconds, a water ele can clear all the damaging conditions from your whole team every 10 seconds, keeping bleed stacks to about 5. If you think you should be able to be permanently clean and utterly nullify condition builds, I have news for you.

If you really can’t handle the massive 600-800 dps the necro is left with, you could always bring a second team cleanser. That’s if you don’t already have a shout guard, which would be odd. He’s not mobile enough to be hitting far, so your guard should be there to clean you every time you see him. Between a shout guard and water ele who are competent enough to cleanse properly instead of spamming randomly, necros do about nothing.

With the corrupt boon nerf I can tank 3 necros all kittening day on my guard if I have a water ele around. Quite literally, and I have like 40 hours /played on it.

The QQ brigade is led by:
engis who don’t want competition for the condi spot,
thieves who are mad that warriors can do something better than them,
eles who can’t give up air bursts,
guards who are dying because their ele can’t give up air bursts,

and the ranks of the brigade are filled with puggers and 1v1 heroes.

Krilce.7864:

Sol.4310:

With the right team comp and support conditions are far from broken. Solo’Que will always be hell no matter’s what vs conditions or burst. But Pre-made vs Pre-made its your own fault if your team gets owned by conditions.

For one there is so many ways to counter conditions but for some reason people would rather run a GC build with a low HP pool with next to no condition remove. Then complain about conditions being OP. How is it the condition teams problem, when clearly your team doesn’t take the right counter measure to handle conditions.

Each meta has it’s pro’s and con’s matter being smart about it, you can’t counter everything so counter the meta that hurts your team comp the most.

There is no way you can cleanse so many conditions, and apart from that, conditions are easily spamable, most of the times applied from range, in AoE effect. How hard is it to understand that ranged AoE skills can’t, and should’t ever be as strong as single target melee skills?

I’m running a warrior which removes 3 conditions after every burst skill I use(2 skills on 8 sec cd) + Berserker Stance and Signet of Stamina sometimes, and that’s still not enough. Meanwhile, many other professions have even lower condi removal, so you can imagine how awful dealing with conditions is. Also, you can’t really dodge conditions, unlike burst target attacks, and conditions are far more spamable than stronger power damage attacks.

Another problem is that in this meta, conditions actually kill faster than power damage, which shouldn’t work that way, since conditions are designed to wear your opponent down slowly, not kittening burst the target down(and necros can burst whole team pretty much). Currently, necros have huge survivability along with huge AOE damage. It’s not even single target, it’s AOE. And yes, I’m also playing a necro along with warrior(no, I didn’t create a necro because it’s OP), and I’d like to see a necro as attrition class, wearing opponents down slowly and PRESSURING opposing team, not BURSTING them down.

You’re doing it wrong if you’re running decent condition removal and you’re getting burst down by condi damage. Maybe stop cleansing blinds and just autoattack it off. Or bring a stunbreak. Or stop blowing your cleanse on 2 stacks of bleed.

So what you’re saying is necros trade the ability to disengage for increased survivability, but they should trade the ability to disengage and the ability to deal good damage instead? Sort of like a guardian, only with less survivability?

Sit a hammer on him, or bring a water ele. Or both. They’re flexible options anyway, it’s not like they’re only good for necro hunting.

The amount of condition removal a water ele runs neuters necro damage hard in group fights, whatever you find in 1v1. 3 every 10 seconds means all you have to use actual cleanses for is: torment (40/32s), chill (20s), weakness (25s). Add chill (15/13s) and weakness (15s) if he wants to get in melee range. Pretty sure your team can handle 3 conditions every 20-30 seconds, or annihilate a necro standing on point.

A hammer warrior in zerker stance is extremely difficult to peel and will have any necro screaming for SYG, or more likely, dead. Depending on their comp you may not even need berserker stance, balanced or dolyak can do an even better job when their corrupter is going to spend the whole game sitting on his kitten . At least now SA/DS makes it possible for a necro to survive the berserk hammer assist train occasionally.

Electric discharge, let it go.

I still don’t understand price whining. If it’s too rich for you, don’t buy it. If not enough people are buying it, they’ll change the price.

This isn’t a negotiation. You’re not in a used car yard. The price won’t change based on forum whining, if it changes it will change based on a sales analysis.

Top score in tourneys is worse than irrelevant, it will typically go to the worst player in a pug. But yes, flesh worm is good.

Rok.5260:

@Vlad

Can we see one with 2-3 people bursting you since that’s how it usually is in pvp

Can you tell us how much old spectral would help against people 2-3 people hitting you for 7k? On an 18k health necro it would protect against ~360 damage per hit. You’d get toasted anyway.

New one is ~1440 per second. It’s better unless you’ve got enough people hitting you that you’re dead anyway.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Really? http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2622702

Trololo. Did the same thing to some fresh air guy this morning.

Andele.1306:

even the most obvious newbies just move out of the way/cc a DSed necro).

I like this strategy. ‘Oh look, that guy used a LF generation ability, can’t kill him anymore, he has the F1 godmode!’

As for the spectral armour change, it really does depend on how hard your opponents hit. If they’re hitting for like 500, sure, it’s a nerf, but you’re not dying anyway, so who cares?

This forum will whine about anything. ‘Sure, we got 180 radius marks baseline and a 50% increase to our DS hps, but I can’t jump off cliffs anymore anet you kittening suck!’

Andele.1306:

Mammoth.1975:

It’s almost strictly better. You need to be taking 3 hits per second before the new one is worse, and 4 before it’s noticeably worse. If you’re taking that many hits, neither will save you. The only real loss here is that channeled multihits became a lot better against our spectral armour.

Reverse, its strictly worse, Sarmor and Swalk were great anti focus tools for the last patch, since a enemy would pretty much do no damage with basic skills for the duration if you used them before DS, Right now its a short invul/LF spike whorth nothing if in a 2v1 or vs any build that has a cheezy multi hit trick (Warrior, Guardian and Ele elite charges, pulsing line skills, triple procs on traps/caltrops, etc). Swalk is useless for LF now, Sarmor is kinda a nieche ignore pain and 15 points into SR give way more than they are worth, probably making them even more staple in PvP than before.

I don’t know what kind of enemies you’re fighting, but most of the ones I face hit a lot harder than 2% of my health. If you’re taking 6000 dps, you’re boned either way, and that’s about the point where old spectral is better than new spectral, assuming your enemies can output 1500-2000 dps on a stationary target.

I don’t think you’ll see many 240 radius marks. Last gasp is even more awesome than before, and the soul reaping majors are as tasty as ever. Master of terror for me, ridiculous fear durations with burning and terror, my burst damage actually increased, although not by as much as my survivability. The main loss is not being able to fear guard heals.

The 180 radius is one of the biggest buffs ever, and the melandru fix is pretty nice too, but of course the necro forum is full of tears. When isn’t it?

Ara.4569:

- Spectral Armor / Last Gasp is now better in 1v1, and worse under focused fire. Please reduce internal CD to 0.5 sec.

It’s almost strictly better. You need to be taking 3 hits per second before the new one is worse, and 4 before it’s noticeably worse. If you’re taking that many hits, neither will save you. The only real loss here is that channeled multihits became a lot better against our spectral armour.

I’d like to see the base heal lowered and the scaling raised, but I’d really like to see a significantly shorter channel, or even a regular cast.

Finding it overall neutral, maybe a bit of a buff. 30/20/0/0/20, dhuumfire, terror, master of terror.

You can stalk people. If you see someone running a good staff ele, follow them and then just keep an eye out for when they’re hotjoining. Join friend in pvp, spectate.

Stack power with dagger mainhand, minions, and runspeed buffs (quickening thirst with dagger offhand, signet of the locust, or warhorn and spectral walk). For secondary attributes, get more power :P

DriV.6203:

Mammoth.1975:

vicious.5683:

Change Dhuumfire for Dhuumfrost:
Chilling does damage
Don’t listen to ppl who will say “oh no that would be too OP” it would not.

This is a good example why you can’t have abilities that are overly synergistic. This would either be pointless without chilling darkness, or insane with it.

If it tick for 300 every second as a full conditionmaster(~1500condition) i dont see it to be op at all.

Yeah I missed the potential for it to be a dot. Ignore me

vicious.5683:

Change Dhuumfire for Dhuumfrost:
Chilling does damage
Don’t listen to ppl who will say “oh no that would be too OP” it would not.

This is a good example why you can’t have abilities that are overly synergistic. This would either be pointless without chilling darkness, or insane with it. If you’re talking about doing damage when you apply chills that is. If you mean chill becomes a dot as well as having the regular effect, seems fine.

Jscull.2514:

The best suggestion at this point is wait the 2-3 years for camelot unchained. Hopefully jacobs puts in a real pvp system that shows chumps that started playing wow when they were 14 and now game at 21 and think they are “experienced” pvpers what the F is up in player vs player. WoW allowed all games to follow the “cooperate structure” of building games and culture and its to the masses for their $$$. Jacobs openly said were not building unchained for $$$, its for hardcore players. LOVE LOVE LOVE to see zergers from this starter mmo play that game, r i c k r o l l daily comes to mind. Literally more than 70% of this games population would quit first couple months. “Why cant this game be like GW222222 waaaahhhhhh” lol…Joke

You still didn’t give a reason why his suggestion doesn’t give you exactly what you say you’re looking for.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Also, necromancers are extremely easy to play in comparison to engis. Marks are not grenades.

I’m not trying to get into an kitten contest, but you keep talking about how anyone can pick up a necro and steamroll. If that were actually the case I wouldn’t have 1v2d you and Kaypud a while back when you were on mes and he on necro. I remember it because I’ll happily admit you’re both better players than I under normal circumstances, so I was pretty surprised. There is actually a fair bit of depth to the class that isn’t immediately apparent.

I’ll grant you though, engi takes a lot more practice than necro to play at a reasonably competent level. But no one just picks up a necro and is instantly good. It’s really obvious to people who play necro regularly too, all these people you fight lately who are clearly just learning how to play it.

Jscull.2514:

I give everyone who doesn’t know who we are the benefit of the doubt naturally. We did do that hoss. Before matchups became random, we set up a tier and invited a bunch of 5 mans down into tier 8. Real 5 mans, teams only running 5. In 2 weeks of promotion…. TWO only we had 4 teams xfer from diff servers, and had 3 already down there. The bottom two tiers never were moving due to population so it was perfect. For 3 weeks we roamed and there were legit 5 mans all with your “same purpose” in mind, hunting the other 5 mans. IT WAS THE BEST 3 WEEKS IN A YEAR. There are a couple guys on this thread that were apart of it. We had 4-5 other 5 mans interested in our 5 man tier and then Anet comes out with the glorious idea: “were randomizing matchups”. THE END. 5 man tier blew up, now there’s lucky to have 1 per server. So we did do what your “great” advice offered months ago buddy. It’s not our first rodeo. Anet once again killer of all skilled intention.

You still didn’t give a reason why his suggestion doesn’t give you exactly what you say you’re looking for.

Forzani.2584:

I call bullkitten that your crew actually wants a challenge. If you did, you would create a pvp map with as much open space as possible…and ignore capture points.

You don’t even need to ignore them. If you change the respawn timer to 2 minutes, the only way to win is by keeping your 5 together and killing the enemy team. If your enemy splits to cap and defend points, you kill them piecemeal and take all the points while they’re waiting to respawn.

This doesn’t work in tournament play because the respawn timer is 20 seconds. By the time you kill a guy and move to the next point, he’s back. That’s why splitting, rotating, and bunkering are key in regular games, you actually have to control the map, because a kill doesn’t buy you 2 minutes worth of 4v5.

I would only use foefire and forest maps to make doubly sure.

Otherwise, your post sounds pretty accurate to me.

That would definitely help somewhat, although you wouldn’t be forced into taking chilling darkness. Your well of darkness would be under a lot of pressure for such a long cooldown though, as you would be using it for mitigation, stomping, reviving, and pressure if you took chilling darkness.

I think the best two necro bunkers right now are Xelfers old build (which was very close to what I was using but his had stability), or the deathshroud flash build I was testing for some thread here the other day, I’ll see if I can dig that thread up. You could find some of the other stuff in it interesting too.

The other thing I’d say is that vital persistence is pretty underpowered. Your deathshroud won’t last long anyway, and a shorter recharge on DS skills will do more for your survivability. Every DS skill except 1 has some defensive application, but shorter recharge on doom is the one that you’ll really notice.

Here’s the thread with the DS flash build:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Post-Patch-Necro-Bunker-Build-viability

And Xelfers well bunker looked something like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNArYWjQah6daaa87JAJFPj9kivHn6R5sfOA-TsAg2CrIASBkDIDQSgsAN+Y9xsBA

The well bunker is definitely easier to play, and imo, more rewarding. Neither are as effective as a guard, the well bunker simply because the healing isn’t there, and the deathshroud bunker because although the healing is there, it’s impossible to use it all. I played a few games on guardian earlier and the difference is night and day.

It’s not about being stunlocked down. That’s the least of your worries as a high EHP necro, even guards are easier to spike down in a cc chain.

It’s about being knocked off the point and getting decapped or being unable to stomp and revive with stability. These are the basic bunker functions that you need to be able to perform. Being hard to kill is pointless if you can’t control the node or contribute properly to teamfights, because no one actually has to kill you if you can’t do those things.

I’ll be straight with you, I didn’t even look at the build properly yet, just because it has no stability, and stability is that important for a bunker. It could be very good in every other way for all I know. I made the same mistake when I first started playing around with necro bunker builds btw.

Aphix.9846:

You dont make sense, might as well make the sPvP rank character bound, cuz why be e.g. rank 50 when u log on ur necro while uve played 99% warrior ?

Just wanted to say I would really like this. I have like 3000 games on necro and about 50 on guardian. I hate being the worst rank 40+ guard ever when I’m trying to pick up a new profession.

HiSaZul is right. You’re not really bunkering without foot in the grave unfortunately. Decap city.

Well, except for the thief thing. I’ve run across the map with 2 backstab thieves trailing along behind me trying to stop me from getting where I want to go before. Thieves are pretty ignorable for necro bunkers.

josh.7390:

Mammoth.1975:

So you’re running all those since they’re the strongest builds atm right?

Imho the biggest balance issue is the various easy to play builds. It’s ridiculous that some guys pick up a necro or a spirit ranger, roll their face over the keyboard and are able to win vs. others who play their class near perfect. The kitteny thing is, that those guys dont get punished if a neff comes in, they just switch to the next flavor of the month op build.

When BM ranger came up (the old one) a lot of ppls switched on it and they easily won most 1v1 just because its face rolling. Same thing for Mesmers 8 months ago. Its a easy to pick up class. You can play an effective Mesmer after 5h of practice. As soon as you play vs. better opponents you need do adapt, because every1 dodges your spikes. Thats the point where you can actually spot good mesmers because they can set gheir spike properly and close to instant, but that needs a lot of time. I mean there are not many mesmers left, afaik even xeph switche on thief

This just happens to many classes. They get a cookie-cutter build, it gets nerfed – ohh just pick up the next one, np. So bring up some builds which are harder to learn but in the end are more effective than all those cookie-cutters. Engi is probably a good example for a hard to pick up class (except hgh)

The question remains. If these are the strongest builds, then these are the only builds anyone is running right?

So you’re running all those since they’re the strongest builds atm right?

Bunker guards have a lot of built in defenses against direct damage, but have to spec specifically against conditions. A vit/healing/power amulet and jewel would provide some versatility to spec against ‘condition burst’, at the cost of being more vulnerable to power builds and having less sustain in general.

I think a better option would be a vit rune that actually provides some decent bonuses for water eles though.

Losing sustain is relevant, losing damage is relevant, but if you’re complaining about dying to condition bursts and fear chains and still unwilling to put on some vitality or slot another stunbreak, well, too bad. You can’t have it all. If your issue is with sustained condition damage, that’s another story.

Rez.2578:

Tpvp has way lower stat cap, no food, bunker based objectives and most the team fights are 3v3 or 4v4. Also the re-spawn timer is to short and the maps are to small.

WvW 5v5 fights are fast paced and action packed.

So, as I said, private server, change respawn time to 2 minutes, it becomes a 5v5 team death match. Lower stat cap makes no difference because the relative stats stay the same. Sure health is lower and healing is lower, but so is damage.

We all know the unvoiced objection is the real one.

Rez.2578:

please stop telling PAXA to try spvp its no where close.

Why is that?

sorrow.2364:

Well, try to kill an Automated Response engineer with a rabid jewel and a condition build. Regeneration will outheal the damage.

Well, as I said, get your bunker to do it. Clerics ammy too strong!

I’m pretty sure you can manage 10 gold each.

Can’t be serious. Oh no a guy with 5k health, what will I do? Your bunker could kill him at that point.

Nonetheless, if all they really want is 5v5 deathmatches vs skilled, prepared, and equally geared opposition with no outside interference, private server matches with long respawn timers are the only guaranteed way to get it. Since that’s what they say they’re looking for, that’s why it’s being suggested.

Also has the upside of a whole lot less downtime. Instead of waiting weeks or transferring to fight someone who isn’t in your current matchup, you just fight them. Anytime you have a team and someone wants to fight, you’re good to go. No running around maps dodging zergs and killing bads, wondering if you’ll get a decent fight.

If you’re looking for a 5th because someone can’t play I’d give I da ho D a tryout. Only seen him a little but he definitely did some work.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Mammoth.1975:

You’re the one missing the point unfortunately. You have a counter. You’re running the counter. The counter doesn’t involve using the profession against itself. That’s the metagame adapting to balance patches.

If your counter was ‘run moar necros’, that would be a balance problem. In my opinion, if every team needed a necro, that would be a balance problem too, but with every team having a guard since forever, I don’t think anet agrees with me about ‘required professions’ being a balance problem.

I think it’s kind of ridiculous to have to put in a counter build into a team comp in order to take down possible necros on the other team. While on the flip side, someone running a necro has a major advantage for everything else and doesn’t have to worry much about anything. Even given a counter-build you’d have to make sure that person is always focusing on the necro let alone being in the same spot with him. Throw in another necro and it’s even more fun to deal with (sarcasm). Fighting necros are okay, but their ability to single-target fear roflkill you is pretty stupid; I don’t think any other class except warrior has that easy of an access to cc to setup a lot of bursts while be effective in other areas (heavy condi).

But the necro is being brought as a counterbuild in the first place, to kill the enemy guard. The game is all about bringing counters for what you expect to face. You know you’re facing at least one guy with good healing, 3k armor, and a bunch of blocks, knockbacks/wards, and reflects, so you bring a guy with ranged unreflectable conditions.

You know you’re facing a light armour guy with no stability and few stunbreaks on his bar, so you bring a guy to spike or cc chain him out. Etc etc. That’s how the metagame has worked forever. Until you see situations where the counter is bring more of x than the other guys because there is no real counter, there’s no issue.

Again, I personally think there actually is an issue when x class sees play in every team, or y class sees no play at all, but anet doesn’t seem to. Unless this latest condition buff was an effort to push guards down slightly from 99% representation.

You’re the one missing the point unfortunately. You have a counter. You’re running the counter. The counter doesn’t involve using the profession against itself. That’s the metagame adapting to balance patches, while the forums continue to cry.

If your counter was ‘run moar necros’, that would be a balance problem, but it isn’t.

In my opinion, if every team needed a necro, that would be a balance problem too, but with every team having a guard since forever, I don’t think anet agrees with me about ‘required professions’ being a balance problem.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Mammoth.1975:

If you think necro is overpowered, why isn’t your guild playing with one?

Because we play a counter-build. Besides that, A-Net allrdy said they will adjust the necro balance-wise.

How OP is it if your comp beats it already?

If you think necro is overpowered, why isn’t your guild playing with one?

You’re halfway right.

Necros are the best example right now, everyone knows they’re OP right? So play one. Do well. Win more than you do with your current class. Devs get real data showing that necro participation has tripled, and necro win/loss over all players is like 60/40.

That’s where you started going wrong though. If something is is overperforming but they feel nerfing is unwarranted, they can instead buff the counters to it. Or if warrior participation is down by two thirds because they’re all playing necros, both professions get looked at. Fastest way for warriors to get a balance update is for them to stop appearing in tournament play. Of course it still won’t be fast enough for the forum dwellers, but there it is.

By the way, I didn’t actually comment about asking for buffs to the profession you play, but your assumption is correct. It’s just as transparent, actually even more so.

If it’s OP, play it. If you’re not playing it, you’re not playing to win, and if you’re not playing to win, your opinion on competitive balance is meaningless. See sig.

Unless you’re commenting about how OP the class/comp you bring to tourneys is, your balance feedback holds no weight. If you truly wanted to be on an even playing field, you’d be playing the strongest class/comp you could put together.

Your feedback on whether things are ‘fun’ is still valuable, but don’t confuse ‘fun’ and ‘balance’. How fun you find the metagame has nothing to do with how balanced it is.

Vote with your feet if you want to be taken seriously. If you switch classes, have more success, and maintain that success for a few weeks, then come to the forum saying ‘my class needs a nerf’, that’s an opinion that matters.

If you’re getting ready for PAX and you’re still talking about professions that are not in your team needing a nerf, you’re fairly transparent.

Unless your current team comp is GS mes, s/d thief, necro, fresh air ele, and another one of those builds in the 5th spot, you’re off target. Is that the comp you’re practicing on for PAX right now?

Necromancers weren’t seen simply because people figured out a build that enabled engis to fill the condi role better. Not because necros were bad, but because engis were better. Necros were on every high level team for months, then engis took over, now necros again. It’s always been the same thing between engis and necros, and that’s an issue anet should actually devote some attention to.

Rather than being too stuck on their vision for each profession, they should be looking at how they’re being used, and how they can modify that. If both are being used in the condi role, instead of having them compete for which is best, have them offer different variations of that role that each fit better with different strategies and comps.

In the meantime, I’d highly recommend getting good at both.

It’s funny, when you get a chance to pull someone off a wall, it’s almost always an ele. Everyone else is good at only sticking their head out for an instant to fire one skill, eles dgaf. Not hard to tell why

Xsorus.2507:

The best part of that matchup

Team Makeup

Mesmer/Guardian/Elementalist/Necro/Engineer

If Rangers were so amazing, why didn’t they have on their team

Good post. See sig.

Anyone who posts about underpowered or overpowered in tournament play is almost always just scapegoating their failures. If it was really so easy to win with spirit rangers, everyone would be playing them, not complaining about them.

Deathmatch is more casual friendly than conquest for sure. It’s easier to figure out a game mode that only involves fighting, rather than one that involves fighting as well as macro scale movement.

However, since we don’t have it, here’s a fix for those who want it:
Get a custom arena.
Change the respawn timer to 2 minutes, individual.
That’s it.

The only way to win on a map like that is to stick together, because if you split up to cap and defend you will just get zerged down 1 by 1 and be out of the fight for 2 minutes. With the 2 minute timer, the team that wins the first 5v5 wins the match. There you go, TDM.