Guild Wars 2

I would hope that any petless option would just be that: an option.

Having both our elite specs ignore our class mechanic is a bit much.

lucadiro.4519:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper%27s_Scepter
I found this build that is similar at the mine.
I preferere warhorn over the staff since i fell it better for breack bar without losing the scepter’s AA bleed aplication.
Also use epidemic instead of blood is power is really helpfull to clear add in the gorseval’s fight

Pity she forgot to include Lichform/Death Mastery on some bosses. Guess her spreadsheet forgot to tell her.

Why she is AA in Reaper form has me stumped but I’m sure there is a good reason.

lucadiro.4519:

Right by now i have full ecquiped my condi reapers, mainly to have an alternative to my Ele and revenant in high lvls fractals and raids.
My ecquip is all ascended and it is:
Back rampager, rings and accesories sinistre, viper amulet, viper armor (2trapper runes 4nightmer) sinister scepter (bursting sigil) warhorn and Dagger viper (earth sigils).
With food and utility i reach 97% condi duration on bleeding and chill.
My question is, do I lose a considerable dps for that 3% missing? Since I never played condi I really dont know how that 3% can be important. (Actually is a bit less of 3%, i don’t remeber exactly)
And also, should i replace earth sigils with something else or is it good?

Since the majority of your Bleeds have a base duration of 5 seconds you won’t actually lose any DPS until you reach 95% duration.

For conditions that do damage condition duration is rounded up to the nearest 1/4 second. So at 97% duration your 5 second Bleeds last 9.850 seconds which get rounded up to 10 seconds. 95% duration would mean it would be 9.750 seconds and you would lose 1/4 second (2.5% DPS loss).

rogerwilko.6895:

there are those who think condi nerco = crap :
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Condition-engineers-in-new-raid/first#post5777965
so where is the truth?

The gulf between Engineer theoretical DPS and actual DPS is massive. You see a lot of claims of what they do but not a lot of actual data of what they actually do.

I was going off the linked build you had on the previous page where you had 2 offhands equipped.

A touch misleading. In addition your guide does not mention this mechanic. It says you can split weapon for cost saving purposes but not to use this mechanic.

My upload is…bad. Yay for Australian Internet. At least the healthcare and pay is great.

spoj.9672:

It does work as the tooltip says. But if you split your set your weapons are counted in both so it will still proc.

Your testing might be failing because you are either misunderstanding how we are setting up the weapon sets or you are experiencing the sigil equip bug. This bug occurs when you swap weapons and put them in the wrong slots so it causes the sigils to conflict. Only way to fix is to unequip all weapons then place them directly in the right slots.

Okay I unequipped all my weapons multiple times and put them in the exact way you have them setup on your recommended setup on the previous page.

It still didn’t work.

I even put them on if different orders (but always in the slots you had on your build).

Still didn’t work.

Have you actually tested it recently?

Standing right here just north of LA testing them on spiders. It only procs when you switch to the weapon that has the Sigil.

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

580729kitten.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

You dont need weapon switch to proc geomancy just go in RS and out.

Only if you have the weapon with the Sigil as your current weapon.

Again test it out for yourself.

This is wrong. I have a scepter with bursting in my 1st set, and an offhand dagger with geomancy in my 2nd set. The geomancy procs every weapon swap (exception being when I procced it with shroud).

No not wrong.

It works exactly as it says on the tooltip.

I know this 100% because I just tested again a second time right now. In combat when I switched to the weapon set with the Sigil it proced. When I switched to the weapon set without it didn’t.

Don’t go off how you think it works go test it right now (like I just did) if you don’t believe me.

I already tested it before I claimed you to be wrong the first time.

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

I know that and and you use Scepter+dagger all the time. It is not rly the biggest problem of geomancy . Only problem is the melee range.

If you are running Scepter/Dagger and you are going into Shroud every 10 seconds then something is wrong.

Nothing wrong with just flashing shroud for the proc.

Well then we get someone else to test it because both my tests showed the same thing: it works exactly as the tooltip says.

Every jump in will cost you a bit of time.

What, like half a second tops? And you get 3 bleeds for it.

That half second in one auto and one Bleed. So you just lost a third of the benefit. Switching between weapon sets does not have this problem.

If you double tap F1 fast it isn’t really any slower than swapping weapons.

Maxzero.4032:

spoj.9672:

Maxzero it does work by splitting it across two sets. Its how i solo’d lupi with energy sigils on condi necro. If it didnt work i definitely would have noticed and wouldnt have been able to solo him on condi necro. x)

This was months ago though.

Well its a simple enough to test to do. I did two sets of tests yesterday, one set of weapons with the sigil one without. It worked exactly as the tooltip said: it only procced when switching to the weapon with the Sigil.

And if you have your mainhand weapon and offhand weapon split into different sets it will work as if that weapon is in both sets… which will proc the sigil each weapon swap.

You still lose an auto going into Shroud where as you don’t lose an auto going into the other weapon set.

As for the Sigil , my testing shows its different. If you are saying its not working as the tooltip says and not as my testing shows then I am going to need more then just your word.

Lopez.7369:

Yeah. Like I said, I’m asking if Epidemic is the only reason to go conditions over power.

The reason I’m asking is because it doesn’t really seem like adds are hard enough to deal with to justify the overall DPS loss to the raid, unless you’re running double Epidemic.

How much of a loss of DPS is it? Do you even know how much its capable of?

As far as I know there isn’t even a spreadsheet on condi Necro DPS so what exactly are you comparing?

Lopez.7369:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lopez.7369:

I still don’t understand the push for conditions. It’s much worse DPS than power on a single target, and has to sacrifice more damage (although not by much) than power to be a tank. Is there any other reason for it besides Epidemic being good on adds in Gorvesal and Sabetha?

You need condi builds to deal with one of the splits of the Vale Guardian in a timely manner. You can kill it without, but it’s slow going.

Yeah, but an engineer, ranger, or berserker would be much better for that. Vale Guardian also isn’t really hard enough to consider composition.

As far as I can tell right now, necromancer is only capable of really fulfilling two roles right now: tanking and execute damage. Condition does poorly in both compared to power, so I’m not really sure why a thread about necromancer raid builds is all about conditions.

What exactly are you basing this opinion on? For dealing with adds Epidemic is far better then any other condition class.

spoj.9672:

Maxzero it does work by splitting it across two sets. Its how i solo’d lupi with energy sigils on condi necro. If it didnt work i definitely would have noticed and wouldnt have been able to solo him on condi necro. x)

This was months ago though.

Well its a simple enough to test to do. I did two sets of tests yesterday, one set of weapons with the sigil one without. It worked exactly as the tooltip said: it only procced when switching to the weapon with the Sigil.

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

You dont need weapon switch to proc geomancy just go in RS and out.

Only if you have the weapon with the Sigil as your current weapon.

Again test it out for yourself.

This is wrong. I have a scepter with bursting in my 1st set, and an offhand dagger with geomancy in my 2nd set. The geomancy procs every weapon swap (exception being when I procced it with shroud).

No not wrong.

It works exactly as it says on the tooltip.

I know this 100% because I just tested again a second time right now. In combat when I switched to the weapon set with the Sigil it proced. When I switched to the weapon set without it didn’t.

Don’t go off how you think it works go test it right now (like I just did) if you don’t believe me.

I already tested it before I claimed you to be wrong the first time.

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

I know that and and you use Scepter+dagger all the time. It is not rly the biggest problem of geomancy . Only problem is the melee range.

If you are running Scepter/Dagger and you are going into Shroud every 10 seconds then something is wrong.

Nothing wrong with just flashing shroud for the proc.

Well then we get someone else to test it because both my tests showed the same thing: it works exactly as the tooltip says.

Every jump in will cost you a bit of time.

What, like half a second tops? And you get 3 bleeds for it.

That half second in one auto and one Bleed. So you just lost a third of the benefit. Switching between weapon sets does not have this problem.

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

You dont need weapon switch to proc geomancy just go in RS and out.

Only if you have the weapon with the Sigil as your current weapon.

Again test it out for yourself.

This is wrong. I have a scepter with bursting in my 1st set, and an offhand dagger with geomancy in my 2nd set. The geomancy procs every weapon swap (exception being when I procced it with shroud).

No not wrong.

It works exactly as it says on the tooltip.

I know this 100% because I just tested again a second time right now. In combat when I switched to the weapon set with the Sigil it proced. When I switched to the weapon set without it didn’t.

Don’t go off how you think it works go test it right now (like I just did) if you don’t believe me.

I already tested it before I claimed you to be wrong the first time.

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

I know that and and you use Scepter+dagger all the time. It is not rly the biggest problem of geomancy . Only problem is the melee range.

If you are running Scepter/Dagger and you are going into Shroud every 10 seconds then something is wrong.

Nothing wrong with just flashing shroud for the proc.

Well then we get someone else to test it because both my tests showed the same thing: it works exactly as the tooltip says.

Every jump in will cost you a bit of time.

Brayzz.6524:

I know that and and you use Scepter+dagger all the time. It is not rly the biggest problem of geomancy . Only problem is the melee range.

If you are running Scepter/Dagger and you are going into Shroud every 10 seconds then something is wrong.

OlliX.1705:

Maxzero.4032:

Brayzz.6524:

You dont need weapon switch to proc geomancy just go in RS and out.

Only if you have the weapon with the Sigil as your current weapon.

Again test it out for yourself.

This is wrong. I have a scepter with bursting in my 1st set, and an offhand dagger with geomancy in my 2nd set. The geomancy procs every weapon swap (exception being when I procced it with shroud).

No not wrong.

It works exactly as it says on the tooltip.

I know this 100% because I just tested again a second time right now. In combat when I switched to the weapon set with the Sigil it proced. When I switched to the weapon set without it didn’t.

Don’t go off how you think it works go test it right now (like I just did) if you don’t believe me.

Brayzz.6524:

You dont need weapon switch to proc geomancy just go in RS and out.

Only if you have the weapon with the Sigil as your current weapon.

Again test it out for yourself.

Scootabuser.4915:

Maxzero.4032:

One thing about Sigils.

Read what the Sigil of Geomancy does very carefully. It does not work on any weapon swap just “when you swap to this weapon.” So it only works on half of your weapon swaps (testing it myself confirms this mechanic). So to get full value out of it you need it on each set of weapons.

Since you are constantly weapon swapping Sigil of Earth is only getting 50% of its benefit as well.

But do not despair there is an upside.

Constantly swapping for Geomancy procs actually results in more Bleeds then using Earth.

Assuming 100% Bleed duration:

Earth is one 10 second Bleed every two seconds. So a max of 5 stacks.
Geomancy is 3 × 20 second bleeds every 10 seconds. So a max of 6 stacks.

The trade off is that you need to be in melee range whereas you can be anywhere for Earth. In addition the Geomancy is more expensive since you need a second Ascended weapon to switch too.

But do get one extra Bleed so about ~250 more DPS.

So for me the max condi DPs build assuming you can keep the Horrors alive and a willing to blow 1g on Toxic Crystal per use would be:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArd7YjM0Gaqud32cbrxrG4wxRxQMXnjlfhdxghEA-ThSFQB9T9HA8EFImSPlsPw1WYod6f81BKIBnEgGqMILKBJFwiKrA-e

Replacing the Malice with an Earth so between Earth and Geomancy you can gain 11 extra Bleeds.

If you are cheap then Malice replaces the Crystal will cost about 1250 DPs though.

Builds like this are why necros will never be accepted into the meta xD
Currently testing how my horrors you need to out-dps blood. Looks like death magic COULD be a DPS increase on Sabetha, but that’s about it.

Wouldn’t be the first time the meta was wrong.

Horrors attack every 3 seconds doing a Bleed that last 5 seconds (10 seconds with your condi duration). Shouldn’t be too hard to calculate their worth.

Bone Fiend is also well underrated. Does about 600 DPS on a 25 vuln target with its AA.

With 2 100% projectile finishers every 3 seconds and constant Fire/Poison Fields should be able to get 1000-1300 extra DPS.

One thing about Sigils.

Read what the Sigil of Geomancy does very carefully. It does not work on any weapon swap just “when you swap to this weapon.” So it only works on half of your weapon swaps (testing it myself confirms this mechanic). So to get full value out of it you need it on each set of weapons.

Since you are constantly weapon swapping Sigil of Earth is only getting 50% of its benefit as well.

But do not despair there is an upside.

Constantly swapping for Geomancy procs actually results in more Bleeds then using Earth.

Assuming 100% Bleed duration:

Earth is one 10 second Bleed every two seconds. So a max of 5 stacks.
Geomancy is 3 × 20 second bleeds every 10 seconds. So a max of 6 stacks.

The trade off is that you need to be in melee range whereas you can be anywhere for Earth. In addition the Geomancy is more expensive since you need a second Ascended weapon to switch too.

But do get one extra Bleed so about ~250 more DPS.

So for me the max condi DPs build assuming you can keep the Horrors alive and a willing to blow 1g on Toxic Crystal per use would be:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArd7YjM0Gaqud32cbrxrG4wxRxQMXnjlfhdxghEA-ThSFQB9T9HA8EFImSPlsPw1WYod6f81BKIBnEgGqMILKBJFwiKrA-e

Replacing the Malice with an Earth so between Earth and Geomancy you can gain 11 extra Bleeds.

If you are cheap then Malice replaces the Crystal will cost about 1250 DPs though.

Scootabuser.4915:

spoj.9672:

This is what i suspect is better:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLRDbkh2QT1N2cDe3Gb4wxhxQNThY4FkdwHsBxfOAOAA-ThSFQB9T9nBpEEZWQAgTAAxU6pk9DaneBf9AASwBBohKDCAcAsbdjuBjP+4jP+4t7u7u7u7WKgFVWB-e

This is exactly what i used:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLRD7khGDNUdD2tJ4djxG4wBLFDm0HIE0Bi7hFxkYUAYAkAA-TBSFAB9r+DAnAAiV+p0+BtrHw3HAgVKBNeBBSBsoyK-e

You dont seem to get much extra poison out of rise + death nova. So probably better to just use CPC. Death Nova is still valuable as it spawns extra Jagged Horrors.

You can only have 2 minions from death nova up at a time (unless alacrity effects the cooldown which I doubt), and those do NOT deal more DPS then even just deathly chill (1000-1400 DPS). Death Magic is trash tier for condition builds.

Here’s the newest iteration of gear, this has a massive boost in DPS from my old build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRQQJArYnM0AN3gV3AmbCs3gliBbaFMDiBx9wiYSMKAMASAA-TRSFQB9T9nBpEEAnAA3t/Q1M9UQletTPgveAANUZApAWUZF-e

That’s funny because my record while just doing open world is 7 Jagged Horrors just from the GM.

The CD on summoning is 15 seconds but the 30 second expiry is based on health decay with no heals, life siphon and no Flesh of the Master (health decay is based on base health).

With a 5 second bleed based on player damage and duration and ~3 sec attack speed you can see the power.

Was talking about Death Mastery possibly being situationally being meta DPS a week or so ago.. The two main issues are:

1. Mob deaths spawning adds, so MOBs don’t spawn adds on death
2. Being able to constantly fight so heals are being generated.

People finally noticing the power of Epidemic.

Bouncing full DoT stacks between multiple targets = Broken.

SoyMilk.4260:

Maxzero.4032:

Oh My God.8423:

meow one twenty.4376:

Deathly Chill seems to be the winner in all cases.

For a Condi build you lose DPS by using Shroud 1, and Deathly Chill will be ticking whether you are in Shroud or not.

Really? Oh, I kept thinking Dhuumfire is a good source of condi damage…

It’s not. It never was.

Why AA in shroud when you can AA with Scepter?

According to my math, Reaper AA (with Dhuumfire) does more dps than scepter AA in a condition build…

That’s probably true but with Scepter you also have #2 and #3. You also have access to your offhand and utilities.

Add to that how do you generate the LF to stay in shroud for long periods of time as a condition build?

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

I’d trust that damage meter more than anything Nemesis has to say on the matter.

And as far as I’m aware the meter only has functionality issues when you’re logging more than 18~ hits per second since it doesn’t read memory and works on snapshots.

Do you trust it enough to not do your own calculations?

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

No DPS for 9-10 seconds is a 2.3k DPS dip? This is 47 seconds into the fight (fight starts at 6 seconds in and he flies away at 53 seconds). Interesting math.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

Ropechef.6192:

Maxzero.4032:

Lopez.7369:

There are in-game damage meters, and they generally prove the spreadsheets right in optimal scenarios. In those optimal scenarios, condition reaper is about 12k to 14k DPS, and condition engineer is about 25k. And power reaper is about 14k to 19k (depending on the boss’s health), and power revenant is about 25k.

We can argue about whether the optimal situation is always applicable, but there’s very little reason to think that a power revenant or even a good condition engineer would struggle much more with uptime than any reaper build. And that means condition reaper is really bad, while power reaper is better classified as below average in terms of DPS.

As for the idea that ArenaNet isn’t going to balance fights for optimal DPS, we already know they are balancing fights assuming you will optimize DPS. That’s not as noticeable on Vale Guardian, which is purposely relatively easy, but it’s definitely true for the other two bosses in the available raid wing.

They do?

Link me me some readouts that show classes doing 20k+ sustained over a long period of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf8jY6OxTKk

Interesting damage meter.

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air. I would love to see Nemesis to do one of his calculations on the combat log to see how accurate it really is.

Oh My God.8423:

meow one twenty.4376:

Deathly Chill seems to be the winner in all cases.

For a Condi build you lose DPS by using Shroud 1, and Deathly Chill will be ticking whether you are in Shroud or not.

Really? Oh, I kept thinking Dhuumfire is a good source of condi damage…

It’s not. It never was.

Why AA in shroud when you can AA with Scepter?

Aldath.1275:

So, what people is trying to say with the latest coments is: Reaper/Necro IS still a waste of time and resources, does not fit any place inside the meta, does not manage to be useful, and it doesn’t matters how fun it is to play because in the end it brings nothing to the table when it comes to DPS or utility and you’ll be locked inside pug groups or kicked out of content?

…There goes my week and XP boosters for Necro…

This isn’t the first time we have had people claiming 20-25k DPS sustained before.

You know how much they were actually doing in reality in optimal situations?

9k.

Be very, very wary of the 20k+ DPS claims.

Lopez.7369:

There are in-game damage meters, and they generally prove the spreadsheets right in optimal scenarios. In those optimal scenarios, condition reaper is about 12k to 14k DPS, and condition engineer is about 25k. And power reaper is about 14k to 19k (depending on the boss’s health), and power revenant is about 25k.

We can argue about whether the optimal situation is always applicable, but there’s very little reason to think that a power revenant or even a good condition engineer would struggle much more with uptime than any reaper build. And that means condition reaper is really bad, while power reaper is better classified as below average in terms of DPS.

As for the idea that ArenaNet isn’t going to balance fights for optimal DPS, we already know they are balancing fights assuming you will optimize DPS. That’s not as noticeable on Vale Guardian, which is purposely relatively easy, but it’s definitely true for the other two bosses in the available raid wing.

They do?

Link me me some readouts that show classes doing 20k+ sustained over a long period of time.

Now that Jagged Horrors actually survive people can see how strong they are. They do a 5 sec bleed on hit that scales with the players condition damage and duration (so 10 second bleeds).

With roughly a 3 second attack rate each Horror can maintain 3 Bleeds each. That’s 15 bleeds for 5 Horrors. Fully raid buffed on a 25 vuln target those bleeds should be hitting 250+ damage a tick each so that’s what 3750 odd extra sustained DPS?

In any situation where you can keep Jagged Horror’s alive (or have things you can kill to summon them) each one will be adding 750 or so DPS as a condi.

It’s definitely made me start thinking about Death Magic more.

ArtemusHunter.9521:

Maxzero.4032:

The simple way to do it:

‘The damage your conditions do on Chilled targets is increased by X%.’

No stacking issues, works well in large groups.

That sort of defeats the idea Anet had for it though. Not entirely, but sort of.
Not only that, but it also plays more into the direct damage meta hand of things that they are trying to break away from.

I like the idea of having a new condition for it.
Change Chill from Reapers with the trait to something like Frostbite or Cold or some other name with a new icon that stacks like Burning or Poison.

It only affects condition damage how would it support the DD meta?

The idea for Deathly Chill was to provide more damage for Conditions builds. My change would still do that while not affecting inter-class balance.

The simple way to do it:

‘The damage your conditions do on Chilled targets is increased by X%.’

No stacking issues, works well in large groups.

New information I read on the forums. The ascended necklace you get awarded for completing all achievements in chapter 4 of the HoT story has Viper as one of it’s selectable stats.

By all accounts its not super hard either. So if your are dying for at least one piece of Ascended Viper jewellery you can get it.

While I haven’t been trying to finish the collection I have somehow managed to get 5 of needed drops none of which was the Necromancers. So my Warrior, Ele, Eng, Mesmer and Ranger are all set.

The class I am playing the most is not however.

One advantage Blood has over SR is that it has all the movement traits.

Perma 25% or 33% increased run speed.

Sustain means more the more mitigation you have. If you are running Rise! plus Cold Shoulder the siphon from Blood becomes really noticeable.

Thustlewhumber.7416:

Sandrox.9524:

Holl.3109:

NEVER! I WILL CONTINUE POWER REAPING AND USING BLIGHTERS BOON

POWER NECROS……UNITE!

So I’m sitting here with my power reaper doing 8k auto attacks and 25k+ Executioner hits continuing to wonder why anyone would go condi…

Because the doing okay DPS after 50% does not make up for weak DPS pre 50%.

More to DPS then getting big flashy numbers.

Sleyer.7516:

What is the build for the vipers setup?

Its a bit tricky at the moment due to no Viper’s jewellery but I have been experimenting with a glass cannon Necro using Spite/Curses/Reaper. It’s basically a Scepter condition build that weapon swaps offhands to maintain high Chill uptime.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArd7YjM0Q1N2cDe3A7NWwFs4rYXcMCNACAtgoNQHYEA-TByCABNqEEgDCgCnAAnV+R1+AhvwAyPBQ/Azq/QKgFVWB-e

Simply AA and pop #2, #3 and utilities on CD. Conditions might be an issue but you have flexibility in the utilities and heals. The 40% food is fine because half of that is being used as the Viper’s expertise.

In groups where might isn’t an issue can grab Decimate instead.

Once full Viper stuff is out grab that. There is a bit of overcap but you can switch out some Viper pieces for Sinister for that.

removesoul.9670:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The patch yesterday did indeed fix viper stats, so that’s good.

I think nightmare may actually be a perfect set of runes for this build. 95% of all conditions, plus fear and chill if you happen to get hit.

There is an amulet rewarded for finishing chapter 4 story achievements. I’m hoping that will let me choose viper stats. For the time being i’m using sinister. I hope they introduce these in the upcoming patches or in raids.

Is it really fixed?
If so I’m making dat viper gear right now!

BTW,
does anyone know if Lingering Curse trait goes beyond 100% condi duration cap?

It does. It applies to base duration.

So for example Scepter Poison AA lasts 6 seconds. The trait increase that by 50% to 9 seconds and if you had 100% poison duration that 9 would be increased to 18 seconds.

With its quick attack speed its just about the best condi weapon in the game. The #2 and #3 skill are great as well.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Tim.6450:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?

The reason why you could go hard against these kind of numbers as a comparitive basis, is because they could be (not are) compleltely off base. The mechanics of a boss can be made so that they make builds from nigh uselless to very desirable. Yes in some case they can be comparable but in some others they are simply not. The boss that teleports all over the place and reflects/negates all projectiles will make a staff ele’s dps plummit while a scepter necro might come out better.

The numbers are just a starting point anyway. If a boss like that exists, the player needs to take responsibility for thinking through what to do next. If projectiles are all negated in a boss, what is your class’s next best alternative? What build/rotation makes sense on a particular boss given its mechanics?

Understanding the theoreticals behind various builds and knowing how to optimize each build for a given scenario will only make you a better player.

And if there’s a single boss that happens to negate a certain type of damage, does it completely nullify the benefit of running numbers? Because that one boss exists? That’s a reason to say “these numbers shouldn’t be used anywhere ever”? I don’t think so.

Again, I’m just for personal accountability. If you don’t know how to apply the numbers, don’t judge others. If you do know how to apply the numbers, take your gameplay to new heights, and you’ll also understand that they aren’t a mechanism for judging others.

The game needs damage meters, too.

This game does need damage meters. I reckon people would be shocked at the results and how far off the spreadsheets were.

Viper works. Still no Ascended Viper trinkets though.

Ropechef.6192:

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

the records were reset for the launch of Heart of thorns.

heart of thorns has been out for a very short amount of time.

the People that make records are busy playing the game and enjoying the new content and learning the new specs.

dont worry I am sure some will start popping up soon.

That being said, get yourself a group and put one up. Maybe stir up some competition. and maybe you will learn something along the way…

Actually there was over three weeks between the Icebow nerf and HoT launch. Its amazing how in that time no one bothered to try and up their times (or maybe they did try and gave up…).

How much do you want to bet that those old times will not be topped anytime soon? Shall we see in a few months?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

AdmiralSnackbar.4859:

Maxzero.4032:

AdmiralSnackbar.4859:

At 25 might [which is easily attainable with reaper] I can hit gravediggers between 15-17k, occasionally I’ll see 20k but I expect that’s a target specific feature like low armor or vulnerability.

But people are prone to think that big numbers = big DPS.

My impression of an optimal usage for reaper isn’t fighting bosses at all but for killing adds while the rest of the party is fighting the boss. With the reaper you get a class that can almost instantly attain 25 might and 25 vulnerability on oneself, can chill enemies for very long periods of time. Also deathshroud benefits from being able to hit and kill multiple targets instead of just one.

In dragon’s stand you get a lot of fights where players have 1 or 2 bosses to slay [Usually with toughness that’s high enough to make condition damage clearly superior] with adds that spawn away from them but often give players a lot of trouble. Who do you want fighting away from the mobs capable of single-handedly applying 25might and 25 vulnerability, and chilling enemies so they can’t reinforce the boss? Sounds like a job for a reaper.

Or just bring them near the boss and cast Epidemic while continuing to DPS the boss.

That works too (I tried it myself before crashing for the 3rd time on DS) though not all mordrem get that close. Also, depending on what exactly the adds are capable of doing you might not want them close to the boss even if you could kill them faster that way.

There are also other situations where you might not have a boss, say an escort mission involving large numbers of vets/elites (As a conditionmancer i always hate when that happens) or your party is defending an object.

You can usually be okay if you don’t target the most obvious elite/vet.

I found the key is just not get too greedy. Sometimes all I do is #2 or #3 then Epidemic and by the time Epidemic cast is finished its got enough conditions to get some good stacks on everything around.

AdmiralSnackbar.4859:

At 25 might [which is easily attainable with reaper] I can hit gravediggers between 15-17k, occasionally I’ll see 20k but I expect that’s a target specific feature like low armor or vulnerability.

But people are prone to think that big numbers = big DPS.

My impression of an optimal usage for reaper isn’t fighting bosses at all but for killing adds while the rest of the party is fighting the boss. With the reaper you get a class that can almost instantly attain 25 might and 25 vulnerability on oneself, can chill enemies for very long periods of time. Also deathshroud benefits from being able to hit and kill multiple targets instead of just one.

In dragon’s stand you get a lot of fights where players have 1 or 2 bosses to slay [Usually with toughness that’s high enough to make condition damage clearly superior] with adds that spawn away from them but often give players a lot of trouble. Who do you want fighting away from the mobs capable of single-handedly applying 25might and 25 vulnerability, and chilling enemies so they can’t reinforce the boss? Sounds like a job for a reaper.

Or just bring them near the boss and cast Epidemic while continuing to DPS the boss.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think you got it backwards….

if you dodge and you cannot keep applying conditions, it will be so for 1 sec and you will only lose 1 or 2 stacks, not all your stacks.

If you have to interrupt gravedigger to dodge or heal, you lose 100% of the damage for that second, plus whatever time into the animation you were at.

Conditions benefit from fights where you can’t keep hitting the boss 100% of the time.

Or things like Block, Evade, Blind, Chill (does not affect AA).

My personal opinion is that Gravedigger spam is a bit of a red herring. Big numbers sure but slow.

To me Scepter abuse shows the biggest potential. The new Viper gear means getting +100% duration to Bleed, Poison and Torment is doable. Combine that with the extra 50% duration on top of that and you got some very powerful, ranged DPS with a very basic rotation. Compare that to the stupid Sinister Engie rotation and it might actually come somewhat close to its spreadsheet DPS.

Quickness scales with it extremely well.

1. Condition cap.

2. Lack of group support.

3. Spreadsheets putting them last DPS wise (rightly or wrongly).

Been playing my Necro the last few days and man the Scepter is so great there. Plus the supporting trait is fantastic.

Epidemic is is such a smooth AOE for conditions builds.

Be nice if Mesmer could get the same treatment.

spoj.9672:

Nemesis.8593:

spoj.9672:

Been working on some calculations to work out optimal rotations etc. Heres some of the stuff so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flyI2qHv704UUVYqIJeuo6IzY_J0gXAT623eMY38twI/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has correct aftercasts for skills, that input would be much appreciated.

You continue to teach people to play the game based on math in a void which is 100% fake an irrelevant, instead of in game mechanics… even though you actually recently admitted your numbers do not reflect reality.

I already saw the “heavy armor” legendary champion wipe out an entire zerg of melee berserkers at Mordremoth chain events, and merely 2-3 seconds later you had at least 20-30 people complaining that this boss is wayyyy too hard.

Your calculations you and your friends do will ruin raids, people will use improper builds for the raids… do 2K REAL DPS… die… complain to nerf content until it can be done with your bad fake math builds.

Stop.

snip

Nemesis. How else are we supposed to determine the best builds and the best skills to use in a rotation if we dont use math to confirm value for cast time? Math in a void has its use. Its the same use ive always advocated it for; theorycrafting the optimum. Reality doesnt match. But you still want to use the same skills you worked out as the best and math is important in determining that. Guessing based on the numbers you see has no value. Because that does not accurately take into account cast times, aftercasts and cooldowns.

Ive already made some interesting discoveries with this data. Which i never would have worked out by guessing…

And i havent even started plugging in stats and determining whether secondary effects like poison, burn, lifesteal and chill shift the optimum in unexpected ways.

The last time the numbers were ran Necro ended up being kicked from groups for 2 years. The funny thing is when tested those numbers may well of been wrong. 2 years of Necro being the punchline because of faulty numbers.

Why should anyone be interested now after the damage the first lot did?

I was a keen theorycrafter in my time with WoW. Spreadsheets, DPS simulations the works because the numbers could be verified with actual in game confirmation.

In GW2 is more a case of some napkin math, no practical considerations of game mechanics and then ban half the classes from high end content.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Maxzero.4032:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Mikkel.8427:

I normally agree with Alpha when it comes to condi builds, but I have to insist you guys try something a little different when using Chrono.

The best hybrid (aka Sinister) damage setup I’ve tested so far for solo/open world-

Dueling 1 1 2 (thats right! lolmistrust)
Illusions 1 3 3
Chrono 2 3 3

Scepter + focus and pistol

The warden is actually really great at stacking bleeds, its AoE, blocks projectiles and does really solid physical damage. It becomes all about timing your shatters at the end of your phantasms’ attacks.

The scepter rarely screws you over because you’re shattering so often.

You don’t need DE in this build, so may as well grab mistrust. Both the pistol and the focus have great interrupt skills with relatively low cooldowns also (especially with alacrity).

I take the super speed illusions because it helps to reset my phantasms faster. I dont like the wells for solo play.

I haven’t done the math (mostly because i’m not sure where to even start) to see if DD would beat out PF with this setup. . . but I’m just rolling with PF for now.

I strongly suggest giving it a try. It is super fast-paced and does solid AoE damage (for a Mesmer build).

Maaannn, I just can’t see it with Mistrust. Until they let us proc interrupt traits on breakbar mobs, it just feels like a potential liability.
And giving up my ability to kite champs…I just dunno. I do see a lot more mob crowds in the Brink than I did in SW, but…ugh.

As far as DD vs PF, that will all depend on your iDuelist vs iWarden balance. If you’re getting enough wardens up, and they’re actually getting their full attack off on their targets, then PF will certainly outperform, especially with Chronophantasma/PoM evening the playing field between the Duelist and Warden on cycle speed.

That’s something that has got me thinking.

Wardens whirl finisher is a 100% chance compared to Duelists 20% chance. We now have faster recharging combo fields to use them in. Add to that you can fix the long attack cool down times through Chronophantasma resets.

If we rely on Wardens’s more we can also move away from Duelist discipline and get Phantasmal Fury instead.

Stacking 3 constantly attacking Wardens in combo fields should make for some insane condition stacks. Just one double attack Warden can put 24 stacks of confusion out.

The AOE potential is cool, but Wardens still have the problem wardens always had: they can’t hurt a moving target.

True but if we can keep a target in Lava Font for 6 seconds then the 5 second channel for Wardens should be workable.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Mikkel.8427:

I normally agree with Alpha when it comes to condi builds, but I have to insist you guys try something a little different when using Chrono.

The best hybrid (aka Sinister) damage setup I’ve tested so far for solo/open world-

Dueling 1 1 2 (thats right! lolmistrust)
Illusions 1 3 3
Chrono 2 3 3

Scepter + focus and pistol

The warden is actually really great at stacking bleeds, its AoE, blocks projectiles and does really solid physical damage. It becomes all about timing your shatters at the end of your phantasms’ attacks.

The scepter rarely screws you over because you’re shattering so often.

You don’t need DE in this build, so may as well grab mistrust. Both the pistol and the focus have great interrupt skills with relatively low cooldowns also (especially with alacrity).

I take the super speed illusions because it helps to reset my phantasms faster. I dont like the wells for solo play.

I haven’t done the math (mostly because i’m not sure where to even start) to see if DD would beat out PF with this setup. . . but I’m just rolling with PF for now.

I strongly suggest giving it a try. It is super fast-paced and does solid AoE damage (for a Mesmer build).

Maaannn, I just can’t see it with Mistrust. Until they let us proc interrupt traits on breakbar mobs, it just feels like a potential liability.
And giving up my ability to kite champs…I just dunno. I do see a lot more mob crowds in the Brink than I did in SW, but…ugh.

As far as DD vs PF, that will all depend on your iDuelist vs iWarden balance. If you’re getting enough wardens up, and they’re actually getting their full attack off on their targets, then PF will certainly outperform, especially with Chronophantasma/PoM evening the playing field between the Duelist and Warden on cycle speed.

That’s something that has got me thinking.

Wardens whirl finisher is a 100% chance compared to Duelists 20% chance. We now have faster recharging combo fields to use them in. Add to that you can fix the long attack cool down times through Chronophantasma resets.

If we rely on Wardens’s more we can also move away from Duelist discipline and get Phantasmal Fury instead.

Stacking 3 constantly attacking Wardens in combo fields should make for some insane condition stacks. Just one double attack Warden can put 24 stacks of confusion out.

No.

15 chars.

Yunalesca.9850:

So with the expertise from ascendend viper’s armor and weapons we get 443 Expertise which means 29,5% on condition duration.

So about 30%

No Jewellery yet unfortunately.

Without Viper the best you can do is 75% condition duration

10% Malice/15% set bonus/20% Signet/20% food/10% crystal.

Technically you can get an extra 5% by mixing armor runes though it does cost you 100 condition damage.

With Viper’s it goes to 105%. Which is kitten near perfect. Maybe switch out a few pieces to get it right on 100%.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3qjd5g/mathematical_analysis_of_sinister_vs_viper_item/

Someone did a rough analysis for Berserker spec condition warrior.

Basically Viper due to its higher stat total does more direct damage and condition damage. The caveat being that if you have talents that can boost condition duration it lowers it’s effectiveness. We only have one (33% on confusion).

At least a few pieces to up condition duration would have to be in the PvE meta surely.

Of all the nerfs ours hurt the least by far.