Guild Wars 2

Harper.4173:

No matter how we look at it it’s very clear that the original design philosophy and what we have now are different things.
Gear progression that transfers in a small amount of grind with each new “gear grab” update.
Time gated content that makes you coming back because you have to.
Living story that you can’t redo so if you want to experience the game you’ve got to be there THEN otherwise you’re never going to get to play it.

This philosophy is designed to keep players playing, IN the game and spending on the gem store. And you know what? It WORKS.

Sadly enough – even though I hate this new approach which makes me feel like i HAVE to play the game in order to not fall behind ( dailies, guild missions, living story) this approach made me score in over 1.100 hours in ONE year after release as opposed to GW1 where I made around 1500 hours over 3 years or so.
It’s a BIG difference. And when I played GW1 I was in a less busy period of my life.

So – their approach works – people are playing and spending and the train of profit keeps rolling but sadly enough the experience is not the same.
I will never again experience the fun, exciting and enjoyable experience that GW1 was.
The best thing about that game is that you didn’t feel pressured – no need to grind, make cash, farm up or be there at a certain time unless you WANTED to.
I loved that game for that approach – it is exactly why I stayed away from WOW.

GW2 is exactly the opposite – making us feel the need to be in the game or " miss out " . It’s an odd feeling – feeling you’re going to get left behind.
Even if Ascended isn’t hard to get the fact that they haven’t released any official information on weather they will add new gear makes you always have that thought in the back of your head : " I better save up and farm up, who knows what they’ll add in next and I’ll need it ".

I hope they turn around on these decisions and make GW2 a rightful successor to GW1 but honestly I don’t think it will happen.
As proven by myself – this approach works. Even if I were to quit I’ve already spent enough on the TP to have made them earn the cash they wanted from me.

It works short term.

Ask all facebook games (Zynga in particualr) how it turns out long term.

Zeldain.5710:

Tom Gore.4035:

Zeldain.5710:

3) There’s a difference between revenues and profits… by all accounts they are not yet profitable.

Which accounts are those?

NCsoft financial reports, as they do not break out profitability by game, only sales revenue.

Do we think GW2 cost just $40m to make or something? Including all development costs, infrastructure capital (and ongoing), support and marketing?

Do we think GW2 has to make all the money spent in first 3 quarters? Nope. Look at 2-5 years span on ROI.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

MikaHR.1978:

Namu.5712:

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

Will that same people continue complaining tomorrow when today they get their ascended weapons?

Will that same people continue complaining when they get their full ascended set before the end of the year?

Will those who got their legendaries now complain that their legendary was updated in stats so they AGAIN dont have anything to do?

I, for one, am not getting an Ascended set. I’m not even going to play any more, starting with this patch. Unless ArenaNet unequivocally come out and say that there will never be any more gear tiers. Ever.

Otherwise, this game is not for me.

So I really don’t see your point.

So… you are quitting over something that hasn’t happened yet… makes sense to me!

Yes, if there was a firm “its so and so” lot of people might even digest whole ascended nonsense, not without a grudge, but knowing that you will do something you dont like just to be shoved more of something you dont like somewhere down the line….its pretty valid reason to quit.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

When they say things like “there wont be new tier…in 2013” and how easily they caved in first time around and how much grind they make it to be….along all they said pre-launch…yes i understand “QQing”

Namu.5712:

MikaHR.1978:

Namu.5712:

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

Will that same people continue complaining tomorrow when today they get their ascended weapons?

Will that same people continue complaining when they get their full ascended set before the end of the year?

Will those who got their legendaries now complain that their legendary was updated in stats so they AGAIN dont have anything to do?

That depends on Anet, the complaint that there was nothing to do didn’t have anything to do with gear specifically. your just making the assumption it does.

Anet needs to actually release some solid content along with ascended (not reliant on ascended) for people to have something to do. Grinding for gear is not really something to do. Its a goal to work towards yes, but there is much more value in designing new maps for exploration, new dungeons and things of that nature.

however Anet has gotten into this utterly kittened habit of short term content. That right there really kitten es me off more than the whole gear thing which im indifferent towards anyways.

You dodged the question.

But thats allright, we all know answer to those exact questions.

ANet caved in to those same people merely 2 months after launch. How long will it take to cave in after ascended is done? 2-3 months again? Or, more probably, they are planning it all along.

Namu.5712:

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

Will that same people continue complaining tomorrow when today they get their ascended weapons?

Will that same people continue complaining when they get their full ascended set before the end of the year?

Will those who got their legendaries now complain that their legendary was updated in stats so they AGAIN dont have anything to do?

Gehenna.3625:

MikaHR.1978:

Gehenna.3625:

stale.9785:

Gehenna.3625:

HiddenNick.7206:

Guys… I’m still pretty skeptical about AN supposedly claiming that they don’t want any progression in there game. All those quotes you gave me are saying more or less that better stats are not going to be locked behind grind or difficult content. And people who never wanted any progression understood that as they liked.

There is nothing about stopping progression shortly after launch.

There is nothing like the claims of EQ:Next developers who strictly said that there will be no vertical progression in there game. And they are trying to sell their game with that! It’s not inconvenient for marketing by any means! It’s used rather as a sell point. So that’s why I can’t understand the acquisitions about AN changing their mind to sell more copies of their game.

This was the whole discussion when Ascended gear was announced. It hit like a truck for a lot of people who thought Anet wouldn’t do gear tiers. Anet then turned around and commented they never said they wouldn’t. They told us there could be more tiers but everything at a very slow pace and they said the level cap would get raised.

All in all, they didn’t say they were against gear progression but basically said that they’d slow it down and do it in such a way that, pardon the interpretation, every idiot could do it. So far they’ve been true to that.

Remember, absolutely everything BEFORE that implied there would be no gear progression. It was brought up post ascended, as they desperately backpeddled to not look like complete lying tools – which made them look like complete lying tools.

Oh I remember and I remember how angry I was about it. I wasn’t against gear progression but was against it in GW2 because I felt it has no place in this game.

The point is that they never said they wouldn’t and they also didn’t exclude the possibility of more tiers of gear afterwards.

I think a lot of people wanted just that game where stats were not the point and go along their happy ways enjoying the game for it’s interesting lore, challenges and cosmetics. Guess that wasn’t meant to be.

Yup, but since there are games that do it much better and properly (not half-arsed) why exactly stay in GW2?

I just enjoy the forum discussions. I have stopped playing the game.

It was more of a question for those who want vertical progression, since they will be first to leave with new WoW expansion, Wildstar and such while those who dont want vertical progression dont really have many (if any) valid options.

Then all who will be left in the game are people who dont give a crap either way, which will put you back to nov 2012 and discussion “why do we have new tier at all”

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

So when they add next tier of infusions youll come here and apologize?

Gehenna.3625:

stale.9785:

Gehenna.3625:

HiddenNick.7206:

Guys… I’m still pretty skeptical about AN supposedly claiming that they don’t want any progression in there game. All those quotes you gave me are saying more or less that better stats are not going to be locked behind grind or difficult content. And people who never wanted any progression understood that as they liked.

There is nothing about stopping progression shortly after launch.

There is nothing like the claims of EQ:Next developers who strictly said that there will be no vertical progression in there game. And they are trying to sell their game with that! It’s not inconvenient for marketing by any means! It’s used rather as a sell point. So that’s why I can’t understand the acquisitions about AN changing their mind to sell more copies of their game.

This was the whole discussion when Ascended gear was announced. It hit like a truck for a lot of people who thought Anet wouldn’t do gear tiers. Anet then turned around and commented they never said they wouldn’t. They told us there could be more tiers but everything at a very slow pace and they said the level cap would get raised.

All in all, they didn’t say they were against gear progression but basically said that they’d slow it down and do it in such a way that, pardon the interpretation, every idiot could do it. So far they’ve been true to that.

Remember, absolutely everything BEFORE that implied there would be no gear progression. It was brought up post ascended, as they desperately backpeddled to not look like complete lying tools – which made them look like complete lying tools.

Oh I remember and I remember how angry I was about it. I wasn’t against gear progression but was against it in GW2 because I felt it has no place in this game.

The point is that they never said they wouldn’t and they also didn’t exclude the possibility of more tiers of gear afterwards.

I think a lot of people wanted just that game where stats were not the point and go along their happy ways enjoying the game for it’s interesting lore, challenges and cosmetics. Guess that wasn’t meant to be.

Yup, but since there are games that do it much better and properly (not half-arsed) why exactly stay in GW2?

Algreg.3629:

and just like in Vayne´s thread the whole “defense” (which, quite frankly, I don´t think is necessary personally) you have is sophism.

Yup, its typical PR language:

How do you make something bad sound better – call it something else. Invent anything really or stupid reason will do.

Its typical gear treadmill no different than any other game similar game out there with exception that almost any other game does it better and with less grind.

Ignorance is not fooling anyone really.

Ameepa.6793:

It might be only one step now, but usually the first step is followed by the second step.

There just is no point to add only one new tier. Those who did not want gear progression at all hate it, and it is not enough for those who want it.

There will be Ascended tier 2 next year.

There will be cralpoad of infusion tiers too to be grinded over and over again, its a long way from “fine” to “ascended”.

This is what you might expect:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended amor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

level cap raise that renders all of the above obsolete.

Welcome to Grind Wars 2! We have gearflation! And grind!

Piecekeeper.4361:

MikaHR.1978:

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

And what is the textbook definition of a gear treadmill?

To me, a gear treadmill makes previous tiers obsolete. Ascended does not. It’s not needed, if you want the small boost, good for you, go get it. But it’s not required for anything (with the one small exception of really really high level fractals, a piece of content that give you no new experience or benefit at high levels compared to mid levels other than personal bragging rights).

So in another words its a textbook definition of gear treadmill rofl

by your skewed definiton no game ever had a gear treadmill since latest gear was only required in latest raid and you could do everything else without it.

No bro.

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

hellokittyonline.7532:

rjnemer.7816:

First, if you think ascended gear is a treadmill you have no idea what you are talking about.

Second, It will only matters in WvW. All the pve content in this game is so easy (except for high level fractals where AR is required) you can easily complete it with masterwork gear.

Third, its a business, of course they are greedy.

Fourth, since when have mmo’s kept their word on everything

If you want gear thread mil, join Aion, literally take you a year to gear up, then new gear comes out, Guess what? GEAR GRIND TIME MUAHHAHHAHA

It will soon take same amount of time in GW2. And then level cap will come.

And Aion (like any other korean grinder) failed miserably in the west but is doing quite well in the east.

its no brainer where GW2 is headed.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

stale.9785:

They repeatedly said, in development, in interviews, in random in-game posts, that ALL progression would be cosmetic, once you hit the gear cap.

This isn’t something the fanbase came up with on their own – for 5 years they beat the same drum, then a piddling 3 months into live release, they did a 180. Now they’re making it worse. I’m not surprised people are kitten ed – I’ve reached a point where not only can I not, in good conscience, recommend this game to friends – I advise them to avoid anything Anet or NCsoft has had their hands in. They’ve become worse than EA ever dreamed of being.

Yah, at this point id rather recommend WoW, and that says a lot lol

And based on your recommendation from the posts you’ve made before, I’d avoid it even if I didn’t know better. Ambassador material you’re not.

Its better than listening to PR, many people learned that by now.

Namu.5712:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

That comparison doesn’t fit with what is going on here though. It was because of unknown circumstances that they couldn’t go to the zoo that day. Something that they could not help, that was forced upon them, that gave them no choice but to not go to the zoo. (plus zoos usually close if the weather is in unsuitable conditions) So it wasn’t because of their own free will that they couldn’t go to the zoo, it was forced upon them that they couldn’t go to the zoo.

What is going on with Anet is completely different. They had a choice. They weren’t forced by some mysterious act that made them have to go back on their word. They chose to change their direction. It wasn’t forced upon them because of a change they had no control over. They made the choice to do something else.

Don’t forget NCSOFT pulls the strings. If they say you need to add gear progression, then Anet is gonna add gear progression. Your are sadly misinformed.

Yup and NCSoft said “rework this game for eastern market” and ANet is reworking for the eastern market.

rjnemer.7816:

First, if you think ascended gear is a treadmill you have no idea what you are talking about.

Second, It will only matters in WvW. All the pve content in this game is so easy (except for high level fractals where AR is required) you can easily complete it with masterwork gear.

Third, its a business, of course they are greedy.

Fourth, since when have mmo’s kept their word on everything

Theres such thing as good business practice and bad business practice.

stale.9785:

They repeatedly said, in development, in interviews, in random in-game posts, that ALL progression would be cosmetic, once you hit the gear cap.

This isn’t something the fanbase came up with on their own – for 5 years they beat the same drum, then a piddling 3 months into live release, they did a 180. Now they’re making it worse. I’m not surprised people are kitten ed – I’ve reached a point where not only can I not, in good conscience, recommend this game to friends – I advise them to avoid anything Anet or NCsoft has had their hands in. They’ve become worse than EA ever dreamed of being.

Yah, at this point id rather recommend WoW, and that says a lot lol

Namu.5712:

Um Abbas.5693:

I think the downfall of players these days is that they want everything right now, and if there’s a time frame attached to it (which does not make something inaccessible), they confuse it for grind.
Patience =/= grind.

This is exactly it.

Between each release of ascended they have given everyone ample time to get it or not get it if they wanted to.

And its all been attached to content that players do anyways. Daily’s, FotM, events…. guild events, etc etc. If you play like normal you will naturally have the stuff you need for it, you DONT have to sit there and grind for 2 weeks straight lol.

I got very litle by “naturally playing the game”.

Players: Back to the drawing board i guess.

ANet: Nah, well implement MOAR of already badly implemented crap lol

Namu.5712:

Um Abbas.5693:

I think the downfall of players these days is that they want everything right now, and if there’s a time frame attached to it (which does not make something inaccessible), they confuse it for grind.
Patience =/= grind.

This is exactly it.

Between each release of ascended they have given everyone ample time to get it or not get it if they wanted to.

And its all been attached to content that players do anyways. Daily’s, FotM, events…. guild events, etc etc. If you play like normal you will naturally have the stuff you need for it, you DONT have to sit there and grind for 2 weeks straight lol.

5 characters each 2-3 builds.

They gave me enough time to get WHAT?

It also should come WITHOUT ANY GRIND (at least thats what ANet says).

hellokittyonline.7532:

well takes time to gear your alts, that is all, nothing more nothing less.

To those people who rush things.

So, if i log in 2 months from now all my alts will have all ascended gear ill ever need?

Wow!

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes the thread prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

Actually I do know why they’re upset…but I’m not so sure Anet knows. There are tons of posts on forums. I’m sure Anet guys skim through some of them, but different people are upset for different reasons.

Some people are upset about the grind but, get this. STILL want new tiers of gear. Some people are upset about how the gear is acquired but not the gear itself.

I’ve seen as much, maybe more crying about time gating than about another tier of gear being added. These are different complaints by different groups of people.

Language obscures stuff sometimes. If you’re not communicating effectively, you won’t be heard. I’m not sure how much more logical I can make that.

Yeah, but people, including you, are not asking for clarification. They’re rubbing peoples’ noses in the “fact” that they used the wrong term. They’re not trying to improve communications, they’re trying to win on the internet.

As to whether ANet is really that discerning, or business savvy, I’m of two minds. Sometimes, I think they are in touch with the varied elements that make up the playerbase. Sometimes I think they make certain decisions because they want the game to appeal to the self-proclaimed good players, regardless of whether that group is a majority or minority. A lot of people used to enjoy responding to call-outs for help at Orr temples. Now, there aren’t any call outs in those zones at all, at least on some servers.

Oh they are business savvy.

They took whatever money they could in the west. They use tehniques developed and used in F2P facebook games to hang on to what they have for as long as they can in a market thats no longer focus.

Now they are reworking whole game to fit eastern market as they see it as a much bigger potential but need fundamental game changes to stick there, which unfortunately dont float here in the west.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Yah, seems that Vayne here and ANet hve a unique reaction to feedback:

“Bury your head in the sand, put your fingers in your eara, sing NA AN ANA ANA and IGNORE/DENY EVERYTHING”

And to everyone, even if you feel you are target audience – you are not. Target audience for GW2 is eastern market.

morrolan.9608:

Vorch.2985:

Mike O’Brien:

“We’re left with a balancing act. Some progression is OK, but pushing players onto a gear treadmill isn’t OK and isn’t what the game is about. I don’t think [the ascended gear] invalidates the fundamental concept that GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.”

Honestly, if WvW didn’t have PvE gear, there would be no issue, imo.

If they had given ascended gear exotic stats with the inclusion of infusions there would be no issue.

To be fair I don’t think Mike O’Brien was lying when he said it just like Colin wasn’t lying about the ‘fun’ element. But the fact is they panicked and have gone back on these statements and their original vision for the game. A vision that was used to market the game. Now they appear to have no overarching vision going forward.

A visions that made GW2 “fastest selling MMO in history” lets not forget that. It sold 3m till january and only 500k afterwards. Introducing gear treadmill did nothing for the game really.

Sylv.5324:

MikaHR.1978:

Sylv.5324:

MikaHR.1978:

No, but im fed up with people without understanding of most fundamental things about how GW2 stats work

You’re also the one arguing against wearing next to best in slot gear whilst working on time-gated BiS, so I’m not sure why this upsets you. Have fun fighting in greens?

Im arguing against wasting of resurces but thats not topic of this thread.

The stat difference listed above is not that big, and can be made up in other ways, while you work on that weapon. Sorry if you’re mad and just refusing to consider any other option, but if that stat difference is the difference between you succeeding or failing, then maybe you should stop relying on gear to carry you.

kitten , if i were in your place i would at least by now produced anything sensible to back up my claims.

But nah, well just use descriptive “its not that big” by looking at numbers that on their own mean squat.

Continue please.

Sylv.5324:

So if you are a new player who hits level 80, you’d eschew gearing in rares or exotics in favor of time-gated ascended, even though the cost and time of doing so is pretty minimal (especially if you save your karma, level through wvw, or level through dungeons). Because that makes sense.

If you’re champion training, then buying some exotics really is not a big deal, bro. You can afford a full set of exotic armor in just a few hours of champ training, if you don’t already have exotic armor. You can buy an exotic weapon in less than an hour if you champ train. The investment of time in getting next to best in slot while working on BiS gear is minimal.

No wonder you’re this angry if waiting a few hours or a day frustrates you, geez.

Sorry if i dont want to and advise others not to waste their resources.

Sylv.5324:

MikaHR.1978:

No, but im fed up with people without understanding of most fundamental things about how GW2 stats work

You’re also the one arguing against wearing next to best in slot gear whilst working on time-gated BiS, so I’m not sure why this upsets you. Have fun fighting in greens?

Im arguing against wasting of resurces but thats not topic of this thread.

Sylv.5324:

MikaHR.1978:

Sylv.5324:

That really does not seem like a dealbreaker to me. You could make up the difference with a buff or a piece of armor.

So basically you have no clue how much is it but feel invited to comment on it?

I think that you are very angry and should stop foaming. <3

No, but im fed up with people without understanding of most fundamental things about how GW2 stats work commenting on “is it much” or throwing random numbers around.

Sylv.5324:

So, you refuse to run dungeons or spend karma on exotics? Since as far as I know the new ascended pieces won’t require dungeon tokens or much karmas?

You can waste your resurces, but nevertheless its a WASTE, since instead of dungeons you might be doing something more efficient to get ascended (like champion train or sumting) and karma is waste by default.

Sylv.5324:

That really does not seem like a dealbreaker to me. You could make up the difference with a buff or a piece of armor.

So basically you have no clue how much is it but feel invited to comment on it?

EATtheDEAD.4768:

I agree with the OP. I like the fact that I can take large breaks for GW2 and still have my 80’s be at equal gear levels as the people who play religiously. It makes me feel like I’m still viable and won’t have to quit playing permanently because of the “No Hope” to catch up treadmill of traditional themeparks

Well, not any more unfortunately.

In fact it will take much more time and grind in GW2.

Sylv.5324:

MikaHR.1978:

Sylv.5324:

stof.9341:

Sylv.5324:

Being in full exotics will not make you obsolete. The stat differences are not that massive.

That’s like saying that up until now, being in rares made you obsolete, and it doesn’t. You are still very effective in yellows, including in WvW.

Exotics ARE obsolete. There are for the most part far too expensive for not BiS items.

You can run dungeons for them and not pay anything if you are that cheap. You can get a karma set from Orr for no gold at all, except maybe to rerune.

And why would you invest ANYTHING for something with inferior stats that also interferes with getting superior stats?

Because you need to be in something while you slowly put an ascended set together? Unless you plan on fighting naked? XD

Right now, you get karma for almost everything. There’s no reason why you can’t drop some on an exotic set in orr if you refuse to dungeon. Rune that properly, drop a couple gold on an exotic sword, pick up an exotic backpiece for more karma, and you’ll do really well in every aspect of the game.

You act like exotic gear is a big investment of time— it’s not. You can get a full set of exo armor for not a single gold and for just playing content. If you do a lot of WvW, you will have all the karma for a full armor set, backpiece, and possibly trinkets. If you’ve done any dailies or monthlies, you’ll have some ascended trinkets. Heck, you can get ascended trinkets for WvW currencies.

Again, since you seem to not get it, why would ANYONE spend EXACT SAME currencies on something with inferior stats?

Yes, one may wast a lot of crap on exotics. Its neverthless a waste that INTERFERES with getting ascended.

morrolan.9608:

Klawlyt.6507:

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

Of course it could, especially with the fortnightly content release schedule. With that schedule they don’t need all this time gating and grind to keep people playing.

Maybe in the west. In the east – they seem not to think so.

Too bad that those 2 dont mesh well.

Sylv.5324:

stof.9341:

Sylv.5324:

Being in full exotics will not make you obsolete. The stat differences are not that massive.

That’s like saying that up until now, being in rares made you obsolete, and it doesn’t. You are still very effective in yellows, including in WvW.

Exotics ARE obsolete. There are for the most part far too expensive for not BiS items.

You can run dungeons for them and not pay anything if you are that cheap. You can get a karma set from Orr for no gold at all, except maybe to rerune.

And why would you invest ANYTHING for something with inferior stats that also interferes with getting superior stats?

fungihoujo.8476:

Oh no, but it’s ok for them to give some players who grind for months better gear, because not having that gear doesn’t prevent you from doing anything beyond a few dungeons and fractals.

As opposed to WoW, where you need to farm for… well, actually considerably less time to get gear… but that gear is absolutely necessary! Well, only for a few high end dungeons and raids…

Oops.

Yup, quite ironic for game that boasted to be completely different, grind and gear treadmill free.

Sylv.5324:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Just try bringing a character in greens to WvWvW and see how long you can survive without exotics and ascended.

You can survive very well in yellows, which are also extremely cheap.

And you survive much much better in exotics. Your point?

Ascended weapons are just beginning. Considering that you will need at least 3, but 4-6 just for 1 character and 1 build makes it huge grind just for that.

Now throw in all trinkets just for 1 character and one build, at least 14-16new infusions (with every new tier, they are at blue atm so expect a lot of that) and 6 armor pieces (which will be even bigger grind than weapons), 4-6 ascended sigils and 6 ascended runes just for 1 character and 1 build.

Legendary weapon grind will seem like a fond memory.

What you are looking at is Korean grinder in the making that puts even classic Korean grinders like L2 to shame.

And then level cap raise will come and render it all obsolete.

Or if your build gets nerfed to the ground lol

Its obvious they are putting their eggs in eastern market basket.

Ascended weapons are just beginning. Considering that you will need at least 3, but 4-6 just for 1 character and 1 build makes it huge grind just for that.

Now throw in all trinkets just for 1 character and one build, at least 14-16 new infusions and 6 armor pieces (which will be even bigger grind than weapons), 4-6 ascended sigils and 6 ascended runes just for 1 character and 1 build.

Legendary weapon grind will seem like a fond memory.

What you are looking at is Korean grinder in the making that puts even classic Korean grinders like L2 to shame.

And then level cap raise will come and render it all obsolete.

Or if your build gets nerfed to the ground lol

Its obvious they are putting their eggs in eastern market basket.

TheDraco.3965:

Anet has been jerking us around with half -/ assed temporary content for a year now and you are all complaining that something PERMANENT to work for is being added to the game. I don’t think this community has it’s priorities straight.

Its not permanent. Its trmporary just like that content.

dalendria.3762:

MikaHR.1978:

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Its ironic how fast their game turned to all about grnding to get best gear and grindy to point where it could challenge games like L2.

It could be that they are focusing (adapting) to east (Chinese) market and west market gets a shaft.

Korean grinders never sat well with west market though.

Bingo!!!!

Was thinking about this a few days ago. They seem to have a strong marketing staff so my assumption is that they are making changes for a specific target market. Per studies, RNG is popular in eastern markets. I guess grinding may be as well.

Just not an attractive feature in North America. We like earning things but not by doing the same stuff over and over. Also, getting something by being lucky is not earning it.

Even less atractive here in Europe.

Notice how precursor “scavenger hunt” or w/e slided into nothingness lately?

Its not in their interest to do stuff like that any more.

RNG is pretty much how east market rolls. Its possible that GW2 will have different payment model in China, even WoW is pay by hour there so they adapt all this time-gate crap because of China payment model where you might buy time instead of box.

BalloonShark.6739:

I have full exotic gear and I can kill most 80’s 1v1. I usually don’t use food buffs and oils but I can still kill them even if they have them.

Now assuming that they also got full exotic gear like I am, they still have the upper edge with food buffs and maintenance oil which gives more than 10% stats.

Point is, it is still more skill based than stat based like most other mmo’s.

So you can pwn bads/upleveled so that makes it alright?

HiddenNick.7206:

Added some quotes to my OP.

Add GDC one also where they specifically state they carry over their GW1 philosphy about that to GW2 and that anyone should have max stats basically when they reach 80 and grind is just for looks.

They will probably raise level cap before adding new tier, but that will have a side effect of obsoleting ALL your gear (even legendaries) so you can get on gear treadmill all over again!

Remember that infusions are at “fine” quality so lots of room for new tiers there. It will look somewhat:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended armor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

new level cap rendering all of the above obsolete at new level cap.

Welcome to new Gear Wars 2. Its all about gearflation! And we have grind too!

Harbard.5738:

Lord Kuru.3685:

No doubt by the time we’re able to grind out Ascended gear for all our mains (just forget about gearing up any alts!), we’ll certainly have the next tier of gear foisted upon us.

They claim ascended is the last tier. But oh wait, infusions. Do you trust them enough that there won’t be a never ending influx of infusions? Rare, exotic, ascended infusions…. so much fun…

No, they claim ascended is last tier…in 2013 Expect somrhing like this:

Remember that infusions are at “fine” quality so lots of room for new tiers there. It will look somewhat:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended armor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

new level cap rendering all of the above obsolete.

Welcome to new Gear Wars 2! Its all about gearflation! And we have grind too!

Fernling.1729:

Barret.4095:

how are ascended items a gear treadmill anyway? after ascended armor comes out there will be nothing else after that.

You are just guessing that they won’t add anything else.
They say, “we will not add another tier of gear in 2013 after ascended.”, when they should be saying, “we have no plans to ever add another tier of gear after ascended.”
If anything it is more likely that they will add another tier.

They will probably raise level cap before adding new tier, but that will have a side effect of obsoleting ALL your gear (even legendaries) so you can get on gear treadmill all over again!

Remember that infusions are at “fine” quality so lots of room for new tiers there. It will look somewhat:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended armor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

new level cap rendering all of the above obsolete at new level cap.

Welcome to new Gear Wars 2. Its all about gearflation! And we have grind too!

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Its ironic how fast their game turned to all about grnding to get best gear and grindy to point where it could challenge games like L2.

It could be that they are focusing (adapting) to east (Chinese) market and west market gets a shaft.

Korean grinders never sat well with west market though.

Zeldain.5710:

MikaHR.1978:

SW:TOR had 300 employees, I can tell you f
1. SWTOR by all estimates costed 2-3 times more to make
2. by year 1 SWTOR went F2P because it was losing money, subs dropped to abysmal levels (200-250k subs)
3. SWTOR had 400 employees at launch and 2 rounds of layoffs that included lot of higher ups. Even CEO of EA being sacked, many estimate largely due to SWTOR (he brokered Bioware takeover etc.)
4. SWTOR had over 200 severs at launch (226 iirc) and had 2 rounds of merges and is now at 17 (completely shut down oceanic servers)
5. SWTOR has to pay Royalties to LA (estimate 30%) for IP

The fact is we have no official estimate on the cost of SW:TOR nor do we have one for GW2. But what we do know, as is the case for all forms of financing, you aren’t expected to pay it off day 1. If you are making your payments, it’s a good financial bet over time for the “lender.” So total overall development cost has little to do with this in either game’s case.

Do the math even with 250k subs. That’s almost $4m per month, or $12m per quarter just in sub revenue… With estimates of active GW2 players being less than 500,000 active players, at best, that would require a full 50% of those players to spend the equivalent of $15/month just to MATCH SW:TOR’s levels. And I guarantee you 50% of players are not using the GW2 cash shop at the $15 level

Speaking w/ Gordon Walton at GDC Online 2011, he revealed about 250 BioWare team members working on SW:TOR. I will take my direct source over your no source.

The licensing fee is your only valid argument. SW:TOR had to overcome an artificial hurdle that doesn’t exist for GW2, WildStar, Elder Scrolls, etc.

Not official but still some very good estimates and insider info.

Initial investment has quite large impact on your obligations every month and required income every month.

CEO of EA said that they need 500k long term subs to break even. 1m to make decent profit.

They said at launch they had up to 800 people working on SWTOR at times, with roughly half being BW core, rest contracters. James Ohlen bragged about it at launch along with “we wont layoff any after launch (as others do) as we are here for long term”. Darth Hater confirmed around 400 people at the time of first layoffs. We know how that ended.

And you dont have to guess GW2 numbers since you have those 25m in last quarter which is oughly 555 555 subs. SWTOR didnt have near that number on 1 year (reason of all the layoffs, merges and F2P)

Gordon Walton said a lot of things about SWTOR that turned up to not be true, it is why probably he left the project quite long before (2+years before iirc) launch (as EA/LA seem to wanted a different game)

Thats why, if we compare Rift and SWTOR, Rift is success with its ~200k subs and SWTOR is failure with it since Rift costed 50m $ and SWTOR 4-6 times more, diectly impacting sub number to stay profitable enough.

champ.7021:

@Vayne
“Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so."

Im imagining getting a legendary for all my characters that i play regularly (5 of them to be exact soon to be six) just to stay at the top tier and i cant see how its not a treadmill or at least a massive grind….

If you have a fat bank account its as easy as opening TP tab and mark “Legendary”

No grind or treadmill whatsoever

Theres a reason why those are tradable

Zeldain.5710:

Galen Grey.4709:

Thats a different story. Swtor went free to play cause they projected free to play would be more profitable which it was.

Her’s what I’m getting at… GW2 sold 3 million in about the same time that SW:TOR sold 2.5 million. At the same relative box price.

SW:TOR had a large number of those players pay at least a month, if not 6 month or 12 month subscriptions at $15 a month.

GW2 had an unknown number of players spend money in the cash shop, but it looked positive.

Even in the best case of cash shop sales for GW2, it would be easy to see how SW:TOR would be at, if not beating GW2 revenue levels for Year 1. Yet, they saw wholesale need to change their business model. That kind of success should have at least gave them confidence. But it didn’t.

SW:TOR had about 250 staff at launch. GW2 over 200 from what is said. So the staffing levels were also not different.

Infrastructure? There’s nothing magical about it… they are basically the same in terms of hardware, bandwidth, defense budget, etc.

So what makes GW2 a resounding, growing success when SW:TOR by all counts was more successful revenue-wise in year one? Yet was viewed as a failure?

1. SWTOR by all estimates costed 2-3 times more to make
2. by year 1 SWTOR went F2P because it was losing money, subs dropped to abysmal levels (200-250k subs)
3. SWTOR had 400 employees at launch and 2 rounds of layoffs that included lot of higher ups. Even CEO of EA being sacked, many estimate largely due to SWTOR (he brokered Bioware takeover etc.)
4. SWTOR had over 200 severs at launch (226 iirc) and had 2 rounds of merges and is now at 17 (completely shut down oceanic servers)
5. SWTOR has to pay Royalties to LA (estimate 30%) for IP