Guild Wars 2

You should have exploited like everyone else.

Silly of you.

Torolan.5816:

I am a little bit curious right now:
Has vertical instead of horizontal progression made any difference for your right now with a different type of gate in place? As raids are suggesting the use of acended armor, has this tactic really paid off in your opinion if you should discard your exotic armor anyway at some point? Level raise through the backdoor, yes or no?

By how theye going and who they cater to level raise with whole new ascended gear grind (10 levels higher now with 50% higher stats) can be expected.

TGI FRIDAY.6275:

Then don’t. One of the reasons why i enjoy GW2 so much is that I can leave for a few months and come back knowing that my gear is still relevant. If GW2 is not giving you want you want atm you can leave and come back. Simple as that. If you find something else that you enjoy and would rather play that then GW2 loses another player and it falls soley on Anet’s shoulders.

Thats not true any more, your gear may be “relevant” but your character isnt.

Okhu.7948:

Or maybe just maybe Anet didn’t overreact. But the player base that uses the forums did. (As usual) the new content isn’t that difficult, and Anet shouldn’t have to hold a bunch of peoples hands. The new content IS a tad grindy however, I’d be happy with them making it slightly less so.

Nope, they did what “commuinty” told the to do just like Carbine did what “community” told them to do. Then community crapped all over who said they are a tad on idiot side (just like here), and then Wildstar launched. And results are well known.

Now Carbine is begging players to come back, as they have “dumbified” WS considerably and “community” is long gone and crapping all over Wildstar for being “dumbified”.

Notsoperky.2348:

GW2 needs something that GW had, and that’s HM (Hard Mode). In hard mode they could make every HP a champ that requires at least 3 people to be near it to even trigger, takes ten minutes to kill with a 5 minute timer unless you trigger your skills in exactly the right way, dodge to the micro second and happen to have the requisite skills to remove it’s bar so you can do significant damage- which only certain classes have on a regular basis.

Oh, and just for fun, all regen type heal skills are nerfed in hard mode so no more passive on tick heal effects, as well as all passive condi cleanse.

That would satisfy the die hards who think just because they exploited to 40 mastery points in two days, ran around the map in blob and finished it inside a week that others should suffer when the map population has died off and there is literally no one around to help out on a HP which took 10 attempts and 30 minutes to reach (not all of us have young reactions or memories any more).

Kinda wish I’d exploited to get 40 mastery points now to be able to move around the maps easier and walk through poison, etc.

Yup, great message to playerbase – exploit hell out of the game.

Because i dont see ANet saying anything about bans for exploiters so feel free to joing in in the future.

But its hilarious that their target audience for HoT heavily exploited. Its so great that ANet caters to them and that they are excluded from bans.

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Coyote.7031:

MikaHR.1978:

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

I keep seeing Wildstar mentioned, and it’s funny, that’s what I’m playing instead of HoT right now. There are still a heap of issues, like very unbalanced PvP matches, but I’m shocked at how fair or even generous the game has become. The Halloween costume? I unlocked it in a single morning of runs through their fancy little Halloween dungeon which can be solo’d. And all I can think is “Wait I don’t need 3k currency for this? I can just … have it?” They have weapon skins, an entire set for 5 bucks in the store! Dyes that you just buy and get them, no need to gamble (but dyeing gear costs in game currency.) Even as f2p I earned enough store currency to buy that weapon set or dye packs or whatever. I used it to unlock AH slots so I could list more items on the AH and make more moneys. Now I may never end up in the fancy raids, but man if they keep updating the store and giving my lots of little events to putter in for fun little rewards like costumes and decor items for my housing plot, I can see myself being happy in this game. But yeah… pvp is hit or miss, makes me miss sPVP in GW2 a little.

Yup, they “dumbified” Wildstar a lot, and funny, now that hardcores are gone, and the game is “super dumbified” its doing just fine lol

The “hardcore” part was not the major issue of Wildstar at launch (open world and many instances weren´t that difficult anyway), but tedious mechanics (eg. raids having a ridiculous attunement process completely unrelated to the actual raid or the story) and a game that was not really ready for launch yet, many things were not really thought through.

Not to mention taking the risk of going subscription based, I hardly see that working anymore in today´s industry. Whether they will do fine remains to be seen anyway.

I mean, I understand your yearning for casual schadenfreude, it is never fun failing at things other people can do, but I can assure you it is completely unfounded.

Oh, you should have seen the outbreak from “hardcores” when Carbine started changing things and, as far as they are concerend “Carbine totally ruined the game by listening casual whiners”. Instead they could have looked at empty servers.

I have seen it and played it. The hardcore crowd was as annoying as the casuals in their forums, both fighting a shadow war ignoring the actual issues of the game most of the time.

There was NO casual crowd left, youre just making things up. Actual issue of the game was that it had NO casual/solo content in endgame. EVERYTHING was tuned to group/hardcore.

sure, sure… imagine there were so called casual players in beta and later. And the endgame content was not “hardcore”, it was ridiculous. Repeating the same quests every day to progress? Sure, hardcore. I´d say you confuse “hardcore” with things that are not good or you do not like personally.

Taking EXTREME amount of time is hardcore. Couple it with all golds needed, gear and all else AND only group or not need apply.

AND that was all that Wildstar had for endgame. Harcores were so happy game caters only to them and it was same as here, talking down to EVERYONE who tried to tell them that WS will fail. And it did, and Carbine “dumbified” the game, and they left and WS is now doing FINE.

As i said, “Widlstar was ruined” (signed: hardcore)

Taking EXTREME amount of time is hardcore – the most ridiculous definition I ever heard. I´d go with requirements of skill and a real possibility of failure. And noone was being happy. But I guess you missed that in your little crusade.

Hardcores WERE happy. I gues you missed that. What they WERENT happy about was when Carbine started “dumbifying the game” because it was on trajectory to hit the ground because “it was tuned so every filthy casual can do it in a day”

Taking extreme amounts of time IS hardcore (amog other things)

Just look at things here with HP adjustements, how many jumped that “they are dumbifiying GW2 expansion already”

And i have no doubts it will be “dumbified” a lot more.

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Coyote.7031:

MikaHR.1978:

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

I keep seeing Wildstar mentioned, and it’s funny, that’s what I’m playing instead of HoT right now. There are still a heap of issues, like very unbalanced PvP matches, but I’m shocked at how fair or even generous the game has become. The Halloween costume? I unlocked it in a single morning of runs through their fancy little Halloween dungeon which can be solo’d. And all I can think is “Wait I don’t need 3k currency for this? I can just … have it?” They have weapon skins, an entire set for 5 bucks in the store! Dyes that you just buy and get them, no need to gamble (but dyeing gear costs in game currency.) Even as f2p I earned enough store currency to buy that weapon set or dye packs or whatever. I used it to unlock AH slots so I could list more items on the AH and make more moneys. Now I may never end up in the fancy raids, but man if they keep updating the store and giving my lots of little events to putter in for fun little rewards like costumes and decor items for my housing plot, I can see myself being happy in this game. But yeah… pvp is hit or miss, makes me miss sPVP in GW2 a little.

Yup, they “dumbified” Wildstar a lot, and funny, now that hardcores are gone, and the game is “super dumbified” its doing just fine lol

The “hardcore” part was not the major issue of Wildstar at launch (open world and many instances weren´t that difficult anyway), but tedious mechanics (eg. raids having a ridiculous attunement process completely unrelated to the actual raid or the story) and a game that was not really ready for launch yet, many things were not really thought through.

Not to mention taking the risk of going subscription based, I hardly see that working anymore in today´s industry. Whether they will do fine remains to be seen anyway.

I mean, I understand your yearning for casual schadenfreude, it is never fun failing at things other people can do, but I can assure you it is completely unfounded.

Oh, you should have seen the outbreak from “hardcores” when Carbine started changing things and, as far as they are concerend “Carbine totally ruined the game by listening casual whiners”. Instead they could have looked at empty servers.

I have seen it and played it. The hardcore crowd was as annoying as the casuals in their forums, both fighting a shadow war ignoring the actual issues of the game most of the time.

There was NO casual crowd left, youre just making things up. Actual issue of the game was that it had NO casual/solo content in endgame. EVERYTHING was tuned to group/hardcore.

sure, sure… imagine there were so called casual players in beta and later. And the endgame content was not “hardcore”, it was ridiculous. Repeating the same quests every day to progress? Sure, hardcore. I´d say you confuse “hardcore” with things that are not good or you do not like personally.

Taking EXTREME amount of time is hardcore. Couple it with all golds needed, gear and all else AND only group or not need apply.

AND that was all that Wildstar had for endgame. Harcores were so happy game caters only to them and it was same as here, talking down to EVERYONE who tried to tell them that WS will fail. And it did, and Carbine “dumbified” the game, and they left and WS is now doing FINE.

And yes, it was sub game but ti had ONLY content that keeps hardcores subbed. That worked VERY well…not

As i said, “Widlstar was ruined” (signed: hardcore)

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Coyote.7031:

MikaHR.1978:

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

I keep seeing Wildstar mentioned, and it’s funny, that’s what I’m playing instead of HoT right now. There are still a heap of issues, like very unbalanced PvP matches, but I’m shocked at how fair or even generous the game has become. The Halloween costume? I unlocked it in a single morning of runs through their fancy little Halloween dungeon which can be solo’d. And all I can think is “Wait I don’t need 3k currency for this? I can just … have it?” They have weapon skins, an entire set for 5 bucks in the store! Dyes that you just buy and get them, no need to gamble (but dyeing gear costs in game currency.) Even as f2p I earned enough store currency to buy that weapon set or dye packs or whatever. I used it to unlock AH slots so I could list more items on the AH and make more moneys. Now I may never end up in the fancy raids, but man if they keep updating the store and giving my lots of little events to putter in for fun little rewards like costumes and decor items for my housing plot, I can see myself being happy in this game. But yeah… pvp is hit or miss, makes me miss sPVP in GW2 a little.

Yup, they “dumbified” Wildstar a lot, and funny, now that hardcores are gone, and the game is “super dumbified” its doing just fine lol

The “hardcore” part was not the major issue of Wildstar at launch (open world and many instances weren´t that difficult anyway), but tedious mechanics (eg. raids having a ridiculous attunement process completely unrelated to the actual raid or the story) and a game that was not really ready for launch yet, many things were not really thought through.

Not to mention taking the risk of going subscription based, I hardly see that working anymore in today´s industry. Whether they will do fine remains to be seen anyway.

I mean, I understand your yearning for casual schadenfreude, it is never fun failing at things other people can do, but I can assure you it is completely unfounded.

Oh, you should have seen the outbreak from “hardcores” when Carbine started changing things and, as far as they are concerend “Carbine totally ruined the game by listening casual whiners”. Instead they could have looked at empty servers.

I have seen it and played it. The hardcore crowd was as annoying as the casuals in their forums, both fighting a shadow war ignoring the actual issues of the game most of the time.

There was NO casual crowd left, youre just making things up. Actual issue of the game was that it had NO casual/solo content in endgame. EVERYTHING was tuned to group/hardcore. You are part of that hardcore crowd who just ignored real issues with the game. Just like you do here.

Evidence: all “dumbification” that had happened since then. And dead servers in meantime.

Algreg.3629:

MikaHR.1978:

Coyote.7031:

MikaHR.1978:

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

I keep seeing Wildstar mentioned, and it’s funny, that’s what I’m playing instead of HoT right now. There are still a heap of issues, like very unbalanced PvP matches, but I’m shocked at how fair or even generous the game has become. The Halloween costume? I unlocked it in a single morning of runs through their fancy little Halloween dungeon which can be solo’d. And all I can think is “Wait I don’t need 3k currency for this? I can just … have it?” They have weapon skins, an entire set for 5 bucks in the store! Dyes that you just buy and get them, no need to gamble (but dyeing gear costs in game currency.) Even as f2p I earned enough store currency to buy that weapon set or dye packs or whatever. I used it to unlock AH slots so I could list more items on the AH and make more moneys. Now I may never end up in the fancy raids, but man if they keep updating the store and giving my lots of little events to putter in for fun little rewards like costumes and decor items for my housing plot, I can see myself being happy in this game. But yeah… pvp is hit or miss, makes me miss sPVP in GW2 a little.

Yup, they “dumbified” Wildstar a lot, and funny, now that hardcores are gone, and the game is “super dumbified” its doing just fine lol

The “hardcore” part was not the major issue of Wildstar at launch (open world and many instances weren´t that difficult anyway), but tedious mechanics (eg. raids having a ridiculous attunement process completely unrelated to the actual raid or the story) and a game that was not really ready for launch yet, many things were not really thought through.

Not to mention taking the risk of going subscription based, I hardly see that working anymore in today´s industry. Whether they will do fine remains to be seen anyway.

I mean, I understand your yearning for casual schadenfreude, it is never fun failing at things other people can do, but I can assure you it is completely unfounded.

Oh, you should have seen the outbreak from “hardcores” when Carbine started changing things and, as far as they are concerend “Carbine totally ruined the game by listening casual whiners”. Instead they could have looked at empty servers.

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

Wildstar….all over again.

Time will tell on that one but I seriously doubt it and I’m happy to eat humble pie. It’s just a game and I’ll get my coins worth. Similar things have been said with every content release. Franchise is still trucking on.

You pre-purchasers are so humorously over dramatic, not even a week after release.

I get you got hustled and your angry you didn’t get what you want and I want it now!

Again…maybe learn from it. I have corn cobs to farm. Cya.

Ummm, dude, you are aware that you are putting more mud on ANet than any of the “whiners”. Its ironic really. And funny as hell.

Coyote.7031:

MikaHR.1978:

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

I keep seeing Wildstar mentioned, and it’s funny, that’s what I’m playing instead of HoT right now. There are still a heap of issues, like very unbalanced PvP matches, but I’m shocked at how fair or even generous the game has become. The Halloween costume? I unlocked it in a single morning of runs through their fancy little Halloween dungeon which can be solo’d. And all I can think is “Wait I don’t need 3k currency for this? I can just … have it?” They have weapon skins, an entire set for 5 bucks in the store! Dyes that you just buy and get them, no need to gamble (but dyeing gear costs in game currency.) Even as f2p I earned enough store currency to buy that weapon set or dye packs or whatever. I used it to unlock AH slots so I could list more items on the AH and make more moneys. Now I may never end up in the fancy raids, but man if they keep updating the store and giving my lots of little events to putter in for fun little rewards like costumes and decor items for my housing plot, I can see myself being happy in this game. But yeah… pvp is hit or miss, makes me miss sPVP in GW2 a little.

Yup, they “dumbified” Wildstar a lot, and funny, now that hardcores are gone, and the game is “super dumbified” its doing just fine lol

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

You are aware that people are asking for refunds and ANet is granting it, right?

Of course, that’s an inevitable consequence of players falling for pre-purchase hype and marketing.

Or…DEATH OF THE GAME!!!

Wildstar….all over again.

And you cherry picking what to quote aint fooling anyone.

fireflyry.7023:

Astralporing.1957:

Think of it next time you will tell someone to leave or stay out of expac.

I didn’t say that. Don’t put words in my mouth to reinforce your opinion.

What I DID say in my first post in this thread is that it seems pretty obvious the expac was rushed, seemingly this was an easy impression to form months before release.

As such Anet were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Raids, main content for the “hardcore” weren’t ready so they had to make a decision. Release what was ready, the new open-world PvE, as the only content option for such players.

Cross fingers and hope the “casuals” will be ok with a festival, core and a new class till they work like madmen to get raids out. Yeah it backfired but imo opinion it was better than releasing the whole thing in easymode. And yeah…I’m a fully casual.

I would be highly surprised if this content isn’t nerfed after raids come out.

As expressed in my first post this is all assumption, but it’s not hard to come to.

If you pre-purchased I again have zero sympathy. You gave yourself no opportunity to make an informed decision. You just jumped the gun based on beta preview, previous content and the promise of shinies or extras.

Maybe chalk it up as a lesson?

I have little fear for the future of the game, as least as far as getting my monies worth casuals rioting or not. I’d imagine most are in-game as we type.

MikaHR.1978:

Non subbed?

Yeah…as in pay once and that’s it. The examples you gave were subbed at release.

Pre-purchased eh.

Amirite?

You are aware that people are asking for refund and ANet is granting it, right?

Because, as you like to put it: they can play core game…..WITHOUT spending 50$.

fireflyry.7023:

MikaHR.1978:

Wildstar says hello.

LOTRO says hello.

SWTOR says hello.

Need any more?

A game that released non-sub would be nice.

Yeah it sucks, yeah Anet stuffed up and rushed the release but it’s done.

Those wanting harder content have it, would be surprised if it’s not nerfed once raids hit. Those wanting “fun” and easymode have some pretty cool festival content and the rest of the game.

If your to impatient to wait more than a few weeks to let them at least attempt to sort it out, we are talking MMO expansion release here, that’s your issue.

If your pre-purchase raging I have no sympathy at all.

Non subbed? This is PAID content. I dont really know whats wrong with you, or if you dont understand that you HAVE TO pay for it.

And its so cute youre trying to turn this into “awww it was just one big missunderstanding” because it wasnt. ANet did what they did deliberatrely.

It was just an accident, amiright?

Mike.7263:

If the elitist grinders keep telling the casual explorers to just play another game, then that’s exactly what they’ll do.

That worked wonders for Wildstar.

True. Its Wildstar all over again.

With one exception that Wildstar actually advertised as such.

fireflyry.7023:

This is the kind of attitude that annoys me. It’s such a knee-jerk reaction to an obviously rushed expansion. If you purchased it thinking otherwise you needed to do more research as I did. If you pre-purchase any game my sympathy levels drop to almost zero but that’s another thread.

Before you get me wrong I’m not saying Anet is without fault here but the customer also has some personal responsibility and accountability to make an informed decision and I get the feeling many got sucked into pre-purchase expecting vanilla open-world in new clothing on release.

At least give Anet a chance to balance things out before you throw your toys out of the cot.

As I stated before this is really the lesser of two evils given the information pre-release, Release the expac as 100% easymode and hardcores will just walk and never come back. They deserved harder content but it wasn’t ready and as previously stated maybe this is a temporary fix until raids are sorted.

Casuals, majority or not, will just take it as a slight hindrance, do something else, and come back in a month when the expansion is no doubt closer to the polished product Anet originally intended.

Who the kitten cares about hardcore. They are IRRELEVANT.

Wildstar says hello.

LOTRO says hello.

SWTOR says hello.

Need any more?

Hardcores are NOT holy cow. I guess its ANets turn to learn hard way now.

Suggesting that you pay 50$ and then wait for some indefinite amount of time to maybe get something enjoyable. THATS attitude that annoys other >95% of playerbase.

WeedyZeGreedy.8635:

So after 6 days you are able to conclude that the content is too hard? All the mobs are new and you need to get to know their moves and patterns. A lot of people seem discouraged when you can’t beat something in first try. Teq was hard to begin with and so was SW bosses but now they are almost never failed at. Don’t bring up this whiney bs so early. Furthermore as anet stated, era of berserker gear is over (i know you are clad in that). So if you are dying all the time the real issue at hand is your inability to adapt. ANET DON’T NERF ANYTHING!

1. Teq was nerfed…couple of times

2. That was perfectly AVOIDABLE content that didnt COST 50$ to play.

Wildstar says hello.

morrolan.9608:

Xbon.9086:

you have the ENTIRE core game for casual play….

So casual players shouldn’t buy HOT? Yes I’m sure anet would just love that given how badly Wildstar tanked by catering too much to the 1%ers.

Yup, i wonder if person you quoted will refund the expansion to all those hes sending “to play core game”

Ajax of Telamona.6974:

Anet tried to keep people as much as she can by doing maps that take more time than usual to explore add masteries and difficult skill points that cannot be solo it. The people that try to keep longer are the people that devour game contend in a few hours- days and then they say that this game has nothing to give and go away. These people will not be late to finish the game despite Anet try. But all these things make solo and casual player life very difficult!!!! And i believe that these people are more important to Anet. GW(1,2) was always 80% solo in pve .And that is why have so many dedicated players . By doing this in HoT there is a serious chance many of them to give up cause they can’t play. Not many people like to depend from the charity of the other players to find a descent group for doing events and skill points.

This. Catering to “hardcore” crowd….well, theyll reap what they sow.

TexZero.7910:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Lord Cody.5237:

Guild Wars 2 is a mmo

This means nothing other than massively multiple players are all playing the same game. Doesn’t mean they’re all doing the same things at the same time in the same place.

It does however mean if you want a single player experience you’re better off alt-f4’ing and playing the legendary game of Solitaire instead.

Ask Carbine how that worked out for them.

Ooops, you dont need to ask them, just look at financial reports.

Beldin.5498:

Tyrantis.8640:

Beldin.5498:

Heck .. a lot of people already hated Dry Top for that.

Dude. After walking through the maps at first I felt lost, but now I get it hands down.

These maps are awesome and I am able to figure it out now.

I love the exploration aspect of not knowing where I am.

Thats great for you .. but we don’t talk here about all you super platformer gamers
and Lupi solo, Mai Trin lvl 50 solo and whatever gods among us mortals.

For me its just frustrating when i run 1-2 hours through a map and don’t find
any waypoint or not even the next story chapter. Or i finally found some other
players, harvest a herb .. and they are away and i simply can’t find them anymore.

just ask for refund, thats much better statement than anything you can do on forums.

Keitaro Dragonheart.9047:

Coulter.2315:

Keitaro Dragonheart.9047:

Oh, it’s hilarious to see the elites throwing their little tantrums. They always complain about casuals whining and and crying, but the minute they don’t get their way, they cry and scream louder than everyone else and are always blaming casual players for everything.

And then you wonder why you get so much hate. It’s deserved. Maybe people will respect you if you stop acting like entitled cry babies. If you can’t handle other people having a fair shot at things, go play a single player game.

Are you insane? The last few days has been nothing but casual crying over everything and Anet have given you what you want each time, now someone setting their sights on the actual gameplay is going too far.

You have all the tools to move and play in the new zones, you just need to try new things, change your builds and watch what’s happening around you. You have a fair shot, just might need you to engage more.

It’s hilarious you say that, because I read the forums too. Casual players put forth intelligent, valid criticism, and then the hardcore showed up and just started throwing out insult after insult. Kicking, screaming and crying as per usual. Because that’s all the elite are ever good at; throwing temper tantrums fit for a queen.

Hardcore players are cancerous to MMO communities. You either agree with them or you’re a noob, a scrub, filthy casual, [inster nom du jour here].

This looks more and more like Wildstars forums where “hardcores” were “rulers” on forums and crapped on anyone voicing any concern.

Well, rest of the Wildstar saga is history, its kinda funny GW2 walks the same path.

VaLee.5102:

leftyboy.9358:

If you want less challenge tyria has about 25 maps already for ya.

Keep in mind that all this new content is a payed expansion, wouldn’t be an issue if it was added in the core game like SW was for example.

Everyone payed the money for the expansion, not just a certain group of people. And you can’t blame them for that, the expansion was never advertised to be challenging in it’s entirety, just that it will have challenging content.

This.

I wonder what would sales be if ANet was clear its hardore only expansion, and if youre not “hardcore” yo have “other 25 areas to play in”

ANet shold have been frank about it and say in advance that HoT is:

- annoying (“difficult”)
- super grindy
- group only focused
- full of “prepare to have fun” and empty of “fun”

Dovienya.6597:

ShaelynSnow.2395:

Drivrius.6159:

I’m giving up, this is more like Dark Souls online then GW2, it’s a horrible experience to try and play this solo.

The shift in game style from the core game is like day and night, you go from a fun, solo casual, game to hardcore, group only in a second.

This x1000, they draw us in with the fun, solo, casual game then drop this bomb on us and we are all like WTF…

Game companies need to get use to the fact that these days most gamers are casual gamers and that little group of hardcore people will speak up, then they change it for them and lose their biggest player base.

The Dark Souls series is wildly popular, critically acclaimed and sold over 8.5 million copies. What an ironic quote to choose for such a comment.

(The base game of Guild Wars 2 sold around 7 Million Copies worldwide, to put this into perspective.)

Once again, I would 100% love to see where all you statisticians get your metrics re: the 99% of the gamer community that is 100% casual.

DS series saw huge drop in sales from 1 -> 2 (5m vs <2m), and they confirmed 3 will be last.

Since GW2 needs sustained business it cant go off on 1 hit wonder like DS.

ArchonWing.9480:

I always found it funny when people always try to speak on behalf of Anet or any group of players when it suits their agenda, and naturally suddenly it turns sour when it no longer suits their agenda.

Besides, if we want generalizations, what can satisfy hardcore farmers? They complete the content in days, possibly less via exploits, and then complain when there’s nothing to do and then move on like locusts to the next big hype to something even more hardcore. So what’s the point? Just give them a hamster wheel. It’s like a never ending black hole of desire; so what’s easier to please anyways?

Thats the point – some customers are just not worth the effort. Most of games are letting them go, and, in subtle (and in some less subtle ways) letting them know they are letting them go and number of games that cater to them has been dwindling rapidly, thets why theyre so kittened off.

And what kittenes them off even more – games are doing just fine without them since their mantra was that games will die without them.

JOKe.3597:

snip

Please tell me more about what i like and dont like after playing MMOs for 14+ years and 3000+ hours in GW2.

Killyox.3950:

Aytheist.9476:

Solo players cannot advance in the new content, and any decent publisher would disclose such a fundamental change prior to taking your money.

False.

Why? Because I solo advanced with no problems. Soon to be in Dragon’s Stand. Except few mastery gated things I have almost 100% of verdant brink, auric bastion and ~80% of tangled depths since i went there yday.

Using Zerker gear. Rev shiro/jakis s/s + hamm

If it’s about something else then do specify in the OP next time. You’re very vague.

I also don’t think they intended for people to 100% finish maps during 1st week :P

Then again I soloed 100% Orr pre-nerf (nerf reduced mob count/density by 50%, added certain WPs that became uncontested, reduced CC abilities on mobs and dmg, added more WPs)

Uh-huh. You would be more convinving if you actually knew what youre talking about.

Glad i got refunds on 2 prepurchases, i had a feeling it would turn out like this.

Same here, prepurchased but asked for refund a while ago on 2 accounts, HoT was removed, core game intact. AFAIK, theres 30 days refund limit.

Yup, so amusing to read the comments now….i guess….i told you so…..is in order

I dont like it when im right about some things…and ive been right about ANet 100% so far.

They did change their rethoric though. Its “wtf, you had, like, 3 years to get the gear quit QQ blah blah blah and some more blah blah blah”

And OPs suggestion is great….for ALL instanced content.

Kevan.8912:

@torolan
If ascended is not mandatory and there’s not any elitism ingame…just make ascended and legendaries SKINS…with the same slots and stats Exotic have.

@pope
and again..we don’t know if raid will be doable with exotics or greens or naked, but still 5 o10% increase is there and it’s a help.
and don’t forget that probabily Raids will need a mastery level to unlock..and that is another kind of locking content behind timesinks.

Its more than 5%, its roughly 12% difference because all of them conveniently forget to factor in infusions. 5% is BASE difference.

And this is exactly how it starts, as i mentioned in another thread that was merged in mega thread so noone can make sense of it:

in order to justify spending huge resources on this they will have to jack up rewards constantly to get tiny number of people who actually want to play this to actually play it. This kind of content requires huge amount of resources and is played by tiny minority which also demands to be treated as special snowflakes (as nicely illustrated on these and every other forum)

And while other games are moving away from whole raiding (SWTOR, LOTRO), some failed hard because of it khm…WS…..khm……TSW…..khm….LOTRO……khm….SWTOR….khm….WoW 5+m lost subs… … … GW2 somehow thinks this tiny minority is worth spending huge resources on.

This is realistic view on the matter:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

and thats in the game that promoted and “encouraged” raiding heavily since launch.

NO raids in LOTRO any more

WS….lol….its results speak for themselves. “hardcore raiding” they boasted….cupcake…..

SWTOR – doesnt make raids any more

WoW – lost 5+m subs in 3 months because theres nothing else to do but gear grind raiding

TSW – endgame hardcore raiding, FC is living on goverment subsidies because noone wants to buy them, otherwise they would go down long time ago

….
….
….

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MikaHR.1978:

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

Old PR line said before release.

Its what made GW2 successful.

Now, adopting practices like a game that is hanging on a thread to be shut down….priceless

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

There is one good side to this though, since game will go full F2P soon, i wont have to pay for expansion if i ever decide to check out anything GW2 again.

Undertow.2389:

Here are some recent WoW numbers for discussion:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/4924-Blackrock-Foundry-Stats-Blue-Tweets-Setup-of-the-Month-Symmetra-Gameplay

These numbers are from 2.1 million accounts (an extremely large sample statistically speaking), and are a per account, not per character (so someone killing bosses on an alt doesn’t count twice). They are also biased towards raiders as anyone not in a guild won’t show up (but I don’t think this is that big of a number considering how much guild invite spam you get in WoW if you ever aren’t in a guild)

Context of the different difficulties:

LFR – This is queued, automatically formed raids, extremely easy. Think silverwastes level of difficulty. Very few boss mechanics need to be payed attention to by the majority of the players.
Normal – This is manually formed groups, mostly pugs through a browser like the LFG finder in gw2. Generally requires groups to actually do boss mechanics, but is fairly lenient.
Heroic – Also manually formed groups, some pugs some guilds. Similar to normal but everything has more health and hits harder.
Mythic – Completely intended for serious organized guilds with scheduled raids multiple nights a week with months of wiping for slow progress.

LRF: ~46-56% of players
Normal: ~25-30% of players for most bosses, ~12-20% for harder ones
Heroic: ~20% of players for most bosses, ~10-15% for harder ones
Mythic : ~3-5% of players for easier bosses, <1% for harder ones

Keep in mind these numbers are in a game that has had raiding for over a decade, and there is currently very little pve content in the game outside of raiding.

Read the thread. Already been covered. Or are you THAT lazy.

SkiTz.4590:

MikaHR.1978:

Yup, i asked same question yesterday, bu as your thread will be, mine was merged with generic “raids confirmed” thread.

Result of raids – 2 refunds for HoT. Raids eat up ton of resources and soon youll see special snowflakes demanding better and exlusive rewards, because as is known, raids are not worth doing without uber rewards. Just look at fractals and ascended.

So, to try justify even those <5% to play, ANet will cater to them.

This really was the last drop, if i want raids ill play WoW. Just as raiders do.

Ascended was yellow card, raids are red.

Probably one of my last posts due to refund account closure.

Bye.

About time.
You said you were quitting for the past few days. Why you still posting? can’t get away from this can you?
Please , just go.

Past few days? I made first post in less than 24 hours.

And yes,i was right before and im right now, youll just have to deal with it. In whatever way you fancy.

Yup, i asked same question yesterday, bu as your thread will be, mine was merged with generic “raids confirmed” thread.

Result of raids – 2 refunds for HoT. Raids eat up ton of resources and soon youll see special snowflakes demanding better and exlusive rewards, because as is known, raids are not worth doing without uber rewards. Just look at fractals and ascended.

So, to try justify even those <5% to play, ANet will cater to them.

This really was the last drop, if i want raids ill play WoW. Just as raiders do.

Ascended was yellow card, raids are red.

Probably one of my last posts due to refund account closure.

Bye.

Hotstreak.5360:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

The problem with all of this is that it can’t possibly be difficult. If an encounter is going to be designed for this game, it must be possible to complete the encounter with any combination of anything. No one is responsible for anything but DPS.

Like, in other games you can make a boss that will one shot anyone but a tank. If anyone but the tank gets hit by the boss, it’s probably a wipe. It turns into a tight rope walk with fire popping up every now and again, and eagles swooping in to try to knock you off.

In GW2 no boss can do more damage than any given character is able to tank / self heal. That’s why pve is and always will be a joke.

You can try to put jump puzzles in, or gliders, or force us to /dance on a sparkling pony as it rides the sky to never never land, it doesn’t matter.

No risk, no interdependence, no gear upgrades, no point.

They should have gone with persistent open world land ownership and construction with a political system and world pvp or something.

Guild wars 2 is just not built for dungeons / raids.

Ye, and in other games tank cant lose aggro if they arent literally braindead.

GW2 combat shines in PvP where it matters, PvE is fluff no matter which game.

Killing overgrown pinatas is pretty much on its way out. It was very insightful of them 3+ years ago to NOT build GW2 for failing model of dungeons/raids.

But since then….they just want to jump on bandwagon thats running towards cliff and is about to crash (ascended, raids…..)

Torolan.5816:

MikaHR.1978:

WWW has like 1 dev working on it occasionally. It has received only few minor updates in 3 years, yet ANet confirmed it performed beyond every expectation.

Lol, wut? Anet has confirmed that it has worked beyond exception? As it is, speaking from the prespective of logistics, recognition, fame and replayability, only a poor DAOC WvW clone, imagine how many people would play it if some really minor additions were made. But that is obviously of not much concern for Anet.

This company sometimes…^^

Well that was quite a while ago, but it performed admirably for something almost abandoned. It certainly performed better than any 3 yo raid in any game.

No worries, Zenimax treats AvA same.

They have a good thing and they dont care about it. Zenimax also chose to do raids and PvE instances instead. Naturally, had to ho B2P and if i wasnt for consoles its a quesion if ESO would be running much longer.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

“[For raids,] we focused on players working together on really challenging content."

no LFR, in literal and metaphorical sense.

there you go

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

Not to step on the toes of the pro raiding faction here too much, but even with the generous? 16% of people doing it, should the effort for it then not go over 15% of the 100% that is HoT to gain a significant success from the start? Pretty sure budget was tight anyway, and 15% of tight is not much. Maybe not put to much hope in it if I were you^^

I’d guess that less than 15% of the GW2 population is doing PVP and less than 15% of the population is doing WvW in big guild groups (raids) playing “the real WvW”. Still they put way too much on their PVP aspect, and next to nothing on WvW.

It has been suggested on other threads that raids being treated as a separate game mode, just like you split PVE, PVP and WvW, now add a 4th named raids. The real question is if the raid population will be higher than any of the other 3 modes, obviously not higher than PVE, but what about the other two?

WWW has like 1 dev working on it occasionally. It has received only few minor updates in 3 years, yet ANet confirmed it performed beyond every expectation.

Now, take a raid, make only some cosmetic changes in 3 years and see how far youll get with it.

Making raids is as insisting on e-sports. it AINT happening.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

Turbine is a bad argument anyway. Lotr didn’t even have such a big playerbase as GW2. Even if WoW could afford to waste all that money it doesn’t make much sense for them to actually waste them. Just you saying it’s wasted doesn’t mean it actually IS.

Scope of number is irrelevant. 5% is 5%.

Blizzard wasted over 100mil titan and dropped it without blinking because “it was not fun”. All that raiding didnt keep 5m (and counting) subbed.

Turbine is GREAT example, because they stubbornly produced them and forum was as toxic and “pro” raiding as you see here.

If they allocated their resources better they would have been more successful. simple.

Direct result is – no more raids in LOTRO.

No more raids in SWTOR for the time being, resources allocated to better stuff. They actually want to make next expansion and further updates count and tee hee – raiding is gone, maybe forever (unless they find money to waste).

GW2 isnt doing THAT great,it certainly isnt wow.

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Its not good since its not representative, its selected.

And GW2 already has LFR – meta events. before select revamps. Or heck, ANY “zerg” event

ANet is NOT speaking about LFR, on contrary the made sure to get messge out that its CHALLENGING

I’m not a WoW veteran but I thought LFR are instanced and not “come when you want, leave when you want, afk in the middle, spam auto attacks and still get max rewards” kind of content like the meta events.

LFR is exactly that, some people even afk at times, it doesn’t matter. Failing looking for raid is nearly impossible. It is instanced but people join leave all the time, noone knows the tactics, bosses die anyway.

So yeah, we basicly have LFR in this game already, it’s basicly silverwastes.

Silverwastes has 100% chance of success but according to the data 70% is doing LFR and 50% is succeeding. How can they be similar?

Too many people AFK. Its pretty much dragons before changes. Jormag has been know to fail now and then.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

SWTOR?

Wildstar? Any new raids in over a year?

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Wow… there are a lot of… less intelligent… people here still, after all of these years…

You know LITERALLY nothing about what they are adding in besides that it is a 10 man group content and that it is called “raid”. How about waiting and learning more before complaining about something that will NOT be changing. Did you think that they were going to read your post and think to themselves “You know, that person is right. Let’s trash all of this raid that we have and call it quits.”?

Btw, all of those MMOs that you mentioned are still alive and kicking. I suppose by “dying” you mean that they went f2p (which some haven’t) because you have zero access to metrics for those games. It should be noted that GW2 just went f2p so I guess it’s non-raid focused model didn’t work either and it is now “dying”. In fact, this case is even worse because GW2 was never even a sub based game. A b2p game going f2p is REALLY scary… especially when the price to entry has been $10 or less on many occasions.

You identified yourself correctly. Have a cookie.

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis. So theyll waste even more.

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Its not good since its not representative, its selected.

And GW2 already has LFR – meta events. before select revamps. Or heck, ANY “zerg” event

ANet is NOT speaking about LFR, on contrary the made sure to get messge out that its CHALLENGING.

SO what was that nuber, 10% out of 2,3m = 230000 =

ta-da 2,3% out of 10m.

Add those who are not accounted, and, lets just be generous and increase your 2,3% by 100% and you get 4,6%. Might as well round it to 5%.

Same that Blizzard said about vanilla, same that Turbine said, and that were games that actually relied on raiding so you naturally expect MORE raiders in those games than in GW2.

Torolan.5816:

@maddoctor
You gave, at least in my opinion, a pretty accurate listing or raid participation in Wow in some other thread, and 2% was your starting point too before significant changes were made on raids there. Another person also showed the number of turbine, where it was shown that raiders were really the smallest group of people with LotR.

Its same in every game, you should have seen Wildstars pre launch forums, if you said anythingc connected to raiding that was not pure praise and leet speek you were trolled to center of the galaxy and back.

Look where WS is today.

Thats skitz dude is prime example.

And same recycled exuses that pop up every time.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

So, content that pretty much all other MMOs are slowly but surely dropping, content that only 5% of the playerbase does….

How does one justify spending ANY money on that.

Please this 5% myth needs to stop (it was 2% some time ago).

The most recent I could find about WoW raiding:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3984-armory-stats-siege-of-orgrimmar-progression-blue-tweets-dlc-439

And some analysis from a forum thread on the subject because I’m no expert on WoW raiding:

Roughly 70% of players participate in LFR, with 50% completing it. 40% tried Flex, with under 20% finishing it. Normal was between 25-13%, and Heroic was 10-1%. Note that Siege lasted longer than any other raid tier, so it’s participation is significantly higher than others. If you look at WoWprogress numbers, at most 10% of players have downed Kargath on Heroic (30604 × 30 = 918,120, slightly under 10% of the 10 million subs). Mythic is easier to pin down, being on a fixed raid size: 8815 × 20 = 176,300 Mythic raiders, which is under 2% of the playerbase.

The point is, if Anet’s raid is like a mythic WoW raid (or even Heroic) it will fail badly, especially since their raid has only one difficulty level. If it’s more like LFR difficulty it will be FINE, those 70% of the population participating (and 50% completing it) is a very very good number for “Challenging” group content and people can stop with the 5% silly arguments.

In WoW 70% of the population is actually raiding (who knew?) that’s not a minority of the population of the game with the largest player base. Stop thinking that raids in GW2 will be Mythic difficulty that only 2% of the WoW population does.

Lotro, SWTOR, Wildstar raids failed for a simple reason. They didn’t have multiple difficulties for their raids, the hardcore players found them too easy and the casuals too hard. Having multiple difficulty levels is what made WoW a good raiding game and the only game that actually survives with raids.

LOTRO had 2 difficulties, since Mirkwood expansion.

SWTOR had 3 (story-hard-nightmare) and 8 or 16 man versions of EACH since LAUNCH. They are dropping nightmare mode, and no new raids in new expansion. New raids – TBA still except “if we do new raid no nighmare mode for sure”. And they made their flashpoints (dungeons) SOLOABLE with “jesus droid”.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

Your knowledge in the matter is severly lacking.

Someone doing LFR once or twice is not raider and would be satisfied with another type of content. Another jormag would suffice.

So pretty much 2-10% in a THE RAIDING game.

Doam.8305:

MikaHR.1978:

Doam.8305:

Dude just likes to spit in other peoples lemonade is all and there are indeed people like that in this world and in Gw2. Raid system benefits those people who like to raid and does absolutely nothing to those who dislike raiding as it’s not needed for anything since this game has multiple methods to unlock items as is and that won’t change for raids.

So because people simply don’t like raids full well knowing they can simply just ignore them they go about spitting in everyone elses glass of lemonade.

Wildstar all over again. SWTOR all over again. Rift all over again. TSW all over again.

Listing games that started with a Sub doesn’t actually prove your point at all. Wildstar, SWTOR, and Rift didn’t provide enough content to deserved there subs and people left and each one eventually had to go free to play. Wildstar is dropping its sub in the fall which is also owned by NCsoft as well which probably played into Gw2 going F2p. Games like WoW/FF14 prove without a doubt that casual/elitePve/elitePvp/Rpcrowd can all get along in an MMO just fine.

This game never started with a sub and with such low expectations adding a feature isn’t going to spell the end for this game at all people as I stated before just love to hate/troll on people when their happy and the people who want raids are happy right now If you don’t like raids then don’t do them. Gear in this game is all baseline to rarity anyway.

They all boasted raiding as retention mechanism. Just as ANet is doing now.

Anyway, result of this announcement is 2 refund request for HOT.

WoW lost 5 mil subs in 6 months.

FFXIV prooves that if you spend double the money on teh game because you epically screwed first release youll earn some goodwill. And never make your money back. They needed cash shop along sub just to be able to open euro servers.

Anyway you dont have to worry about me asking the right questions much more.

You know what they say, vote with your wallet, words are cheap.

SkiTz.4590:

MikaHR.1978:

Vesuvius.9874:

MikaHR.1978:

So, content that pretty much all other MMOs are slowly but surely dropping, content that only 5% of the playerbase does….

How does one justify spending ANY money on that.

5%? Do you have a source for that number? You may want to justify your claim first.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

And LOTRO was all about raiding.

They abandoned raids and dont make them AT ALL any more.

Situation isnt different in other games, based on available data.

The do make most noise on forums though.

Since when the hell did GW2 turn their selling point to “RAID FOCUSED GAME”

Newsflash kitten,. theres only 1 raid confirmed with maybe 2 more in the future through LS ? So MAYBE, MAYBE we might see 2-3 different raids in an ENTIRE YEAR

This ain’t a flipping raiding game and it won’t be unless tons of ppl are doing it and enjoying it, but according to your statistics pulled out of your rear, only 5% can do it.

GW2’s endgame is NOT raiding. You think ppl will just farm a raid daily? do you even know how the heck raids work? You think they will be open every day, every second for it to become farmable as the endgame go to place like silverwastes is?

Next time you have a thought, let it go.

PvP, WvW and open world PvE is going to remain the main attractions in this game. THAT is where everyone is spending their time. Raids aren’t going to become some 24/7 farmable spot where 5% of the population will be spending their time and getting rich and better looking stuff than the rest of the playerbase… Thats ridiculous.

Raids just add a different attraction to the theme park. Instanced content hasn’t been strong in this game since anet killed dungs and only worked on fractals. This at least adds one more piece so players can do more instanced stuff every now and then. They would not add it if they felt it wasn’t needed.

If you had an ounce of logic, you could easily tell what the justification is for adding raids.

If you don’t want to to do it, thats fine, but you seem to have a serious problem with anet spending resources on something YOU personally didn’t want but others seem fine with it.

Guess what buddy, anet is not required to 100% satisfy your needs. They want to do whats best for the overall game, not “what does Mika want, lets just add what he wants!”

Best for overall game is not to spend resources on raids.