Guild Wars 2

BlueZone.4236:

Ohoni.6057:

Raptr and Steam’s rankings for LoL, WoW & Dota2 prove what the game developers says about their games.
If you want to refuse to believe those as well, then be my guest.

My point is that while Raptr and Steam’s rankings might be concurrent for those specific games, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they would also be concurrent with other games. What is so difficult to understand about that?

What leads you to believe GW2 differs wildly from the norm?
For a game that’s sold 3.5-4 million and is 2 years old, this concurrency seems reasonable even if you think the margin of error is large.

Since raptr tracks what it tracks (hours NOT players in charts) you would have to know what is average play time/player/day.

Also, some games have more “need” for such programs and in such more players will be inclined to use it.

Also there have been numerous promotions for certain games which drove higher usage of raptr in such games (example is Rift and free expansion if you used raptr)

So you would end up with whole slew of coefficients that would vary between games and would barely be in ballpark area (game A might have coefficent of 2,3 game B migth have 0,75)

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

another thread just reminded me.

Non sellable/salvageable gear is horrible. You should not give any one items that break the rules of all other items, and especially not new players.

You should be familiarizing them with game mechanics, not these weird exceptions that dont follow the rules.
What if people put a rune in one of these items? they are completely wasted.

I really think you should eliminate this whole class of items, or make it into its own item class which doesnt accept upgrades, and reccomends throwing destroying it on use.

short version, dont give, or encourage new players to get any type of gear that is not salvageable/npcable. It causes more confusion at some point.

Since a LOT of items actually breaks this supposed rule (which of course is not any kind of rule, in fact it follows the rule from previous versions of the game and “awarded items” first one you receive as a part of CHARACTER CREATION)

Earliest karma vedors sell this kind of gear also (since launch), and www, and temple gear…

actually at launch you could salvage and sell karma gear, they changed it in a hotfix because they felt people were turning karma into currency (it was actually a really crappy rate, but when the game first came out a few silver was a big deal)

these sort of changes have not gone through a thorough review, at the very least they should make it extremely obvious that items like this are different than other items.
they should clearly say not salvageable, and they should warn you when you try to put an upgrade in.

It has always been extremely poorly messaged, (like the white items that you can get from the TP which cannot be salvaged, but you dont know until you try them) and one would think they would not increase this problem, with a focus on new players. If you look in your bags after doing some adventuring its highly unlikely you remember exactly which green axe you got from leveling and which ones you got from adventuring.

For a system that is supposed to alleviate complexity, and make things very clear to new players, these items are not it.

hey they just told me i can salvage, why cant i salvage some items that look the same as others?

bad design.

Thats a whole other bag, and how it worked 1+ years ago is irrelevant.

I agree that there should be some sort of warning on non salvagable gear (although you can remove upgrades from it, just not by conventional means)

But non salvagable non sellable gear actually follow the rule for such items and pieces that are salvagable break the rule.

tell me what exactly the rule is, and i will test it for consistency.

karma gear, rewards/awarded gear, www (badge) gear

You cannot compare games from raptr data (as has been proven by comparing several games with known concurrency, well at least known for that moment).

The only thing you can get from raptr are trends on individual game basis, and those have shown to be quite reliable.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

another thread just reminded me.

Non sellable/salvageable gear is horrible. You should not give any one items that break the rules of all other items, and especially not new players.

You should be familiarizing them with game mechanics, not these weird exceptions that dont follow the rules.
What if people put a rune in one of these items? they are completely wasted.

I really think you should eliminate this whole class of items, or make it into its own item class which doesnt accept upgrades, and reccomends throwing destroying it on use.

short version, dont give, or encourage new players to get any type of gear that is not salvageable/npcable. It causes more confusion at some point.

Since a LOT of items actually breaks this supposed rule (which of course is not any kind of rule, in fact it follows the rule from previous versions of the game and “awarded items” first one you receive as a part of CHARACTER CREATION)

Earliest karma vedors sell this kind of gear also (since launch), and www, and temple gear…

actually at launch you could salvage and sell karma gear, they changed it in a hotfix because they felt people were turning karma into currency (it was actually a really crappy rate, but when the game first came out a few silver was a big deal)

these sort of changes have not gone through a thorough review, at the very least they should make it extremely obvious that items like this are different than other items.
they should clearly say not salvageable, and they should warn you when you try to put an upgrade in.

It has always been extremely poorly messaged, (like the white items that you can get from the TP which cannot be salvaged, but you dont know until you try them) and one would think they would not increase this problem, with a focus on new players. If you look in your bags after doing some adventuring its highly unlikely you remember exactly which green axe you got from leveling and which ones you got from adventuring.

For a system that is supposed to alleviate complexity, and make things very clear to new players, these items are not it.

hey they just told me i can salvage, why cant i salvage some items that look the same as others?

bad design.

Thats a whole other bag, and how it worked 1+ years ago is irrelevant.

I agree that there should be some sort of warning on non salvagable gear (although you can remove upgrades from it, just not by conventional means)

But non salvagable non sellable gear actually follow the rule for such items and pieces that are salvagable break the rule.

phys.7689:

another thread just reminded me.

Non sellable/salvageable gear is horrible. You should not give any one items that break the rules of all other items, and especially not new players.

You should be familiarizing them with game mechanics, not these weird exceptions that dont follow the rules.
What if people put a rune in one of these items? they are completely wasted.

I really think you should eliminate this whole class of items, or make it into its own item class which doesnt accept upgrades, and reccomends throwing destroying it on use.

short version, dont give, or encourage new players to get any type of gear that is not salvageable/npcable. It causes more confusion at some point.

Since a LOT of items actually breaks this supposed rule (which of course is not any kind of rule, in fact it follows the rule from previous versions of the game and “awarded items” first one you receive as a part of CHARACTER CREATION)

Earliest karma vedors sell this kind of gear also (since launch), and www, and temple gear…

Ehm, 1 question:

What exactly is now gated that wasnt gated before?

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Astralporing.1957:

MikaHR.1978:

before: grind mobs, grind mobs and then grind some more mobs for every single skill of every single weapon or NO weapons skills for YOU!

That’s not how it worked for at least half a year now. There was a change sometimes ago, that made it so each new skill required less grind the higher your level – at ~15-20 you needed one-two hits to unlock any, even the last one.

The discussion is what happens for 1st few levels (up to 10) which would be 6ish in old xp curve.

Now at level 10 you have ALL weapon skills unlocked whether you depopulated lvl1 boars or not. What happened in lvl15+ in old leveling curve is irrelevant.

actually this is a discussion of leveling in general, the npe doesnt stop at 10, in fact traits is actually the first part of the npe, i guess they didnt have that ready for US in time.
regardless, this patches npe stretches skills you out to 40, so if your going to discuss the changes, it isnt just about what happens from 1-10

and btw, skills unlocked super fast at 10 as well.

Its very helpful to read what youre responding to so your answer makes sense.

Hint: its about weapon skills SPECIFICALLY

Please, elsborate what bothers you the most about weapon skills in lvl 10+.

and btw, skills unlocked super fast at level 10 as well.

No they didnt.

And lvl10 NOW is lvl 6ish BEFORE.

Apples to apples (unless you have some sort of agenda which you seem to have)

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Astralporing.1957:

MikaHR.1978:

before: grind mobs, grind mobs and then grind some more mobs for every single skill of every single weapon or NO weapons skills for YOU!

That’s not how it worked for at least half a year now. There was a change sometimes ago, that made it so each new skill required less grind the higher your level – at ~15-20 you needed one-two hits to unlock any, even the last one.

The discussion is what happens for 1st few levels (up to 10) which would be 6ish in old xp curve.

Now at level 10 you have ALL weapon skills unlocked whether you depopulated lvl1 boars or not. What happened in lvl15+ in old leveling curve is irrelevant.

actually this is a discussion of leveling in general, the npe doesnt stop at 10, in fact traits is actually the first part of the npe, i guess they didnt have that ready for US in time.
regardless, this patches npe stretches skills you out to 40, so if your going to discuss the changes, it isnt just about what happens from 1-10

and btw, skills unlocked super fast at 10 as well.

Its very helpful to read what youre responding to so your answer makes sense.

Hint: its about weapon skills SPECIFICALLY

Please, elsborate what bothers you the most about weapon skills in lvl 10+.

Astralporing.1957:

MikaHR.1978:

before: grind mobs, grind mobs and then grind some more mobs for every single skill of every single weapon or NO weapons skills for YOU!

That’s not how it worked for at least half a year now. There was a change sometimes ago, that made it so each new skill required less grind the higher your level – at ~15-20 you needed one-two hits to unlock any, even the last one.

The discussion is what happens for 1st few levels (up to 10) which would be 6ish in old xp curve.

Now at level 10 you have ALL weapon skills unlocked whether you depopulated lvl1 boars or not. What happened in lvl15+ in old leveling curve is irrelevant.

Kreslin.6832:

Agh… Sorry friend, but this is your subjective opinion. It means that you like it, that’s all. And if you like it, it doesn’t mean that this change is better.

:p

Im sorry, but giving freedom on how to play is much better than having only 1 way.

And now you can do what you want and youll get weapon skills early on, opposed to before when you literally had to depopulate lvl1 boars for that.

Spirigo.2897:

This game has the biggest difference between forum and in-game opinion I’ve ever seen.

Here you’d think that this is the worst MMO ever created.

In game, when you mention the forums most people will reply with “Pff, kittenfest, ignore it”.

To be fair it’s kid of stupid because on one hand people ask for big changes and on the other, complain when something is changed.

Its really not, but its one of the reasons more people dont use the forums, either its so policed that its only rainbows and unicorns (SWTOR), or its more free and you end up with few disgruntleded “fans” littering every thread proclaiming they are “community” and must be listened or game is doomed.

But in the grand scheme of things – forums dont matter much if any in this sense. Too few people and too skewed sample.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Mister Midnight.9837:

MikaHR.1978:

Mister Midnight.9837:

I can’t even comprehend how you’d manage to ignore enough aggressive enemies that pursue you for 15 levels to not get these abilities just by defending yourself, but I guess some people just run past enemies?

Obviously I can’t say your experiences are invalid as much as you cannot attempt to invalidate mine.

It seems to me a reasonable middle-ground would have been to just reduce the number of kills (Because it isn’t about hits. One hit counts as much as 20 on a single kill in the old system) for those people that…don’t seem to fight enemies as much as most other players?

Most other players?

Please explain how you know what “most other players” do or like?

The way they changed it it quite seems most other players didnt like to JUST grind mobs for basic weapon functionality and they actually DID miss skills to play with for far too long. And when they finally got new weapon type – all over again.

Honestly this is a complaint I pretty much never saw, maybe it’s just me.

Your entire argument doesn’t even make sense, it is a FACT you will have at least two if not three of your first weapon skills before you leave that level 1 tutorial. You never had to wait until leveling up to acquire your weapon skills. You didn’t even have to TRY, you could have leeched one hit off an enemy someone else was fighting. Is there really any regular enemy in this game that takes very long to kill anyway?

Let me emphasize that point: You have to WAIT to get a weapon skill. You seriously have to WAIT until you are ALLOWED to have that, rather than being able to pick up any weapon you desire and smack a handful of heads to get yourself started. As you level up higher the process took even fewer kills. This was never something that took actual effort.

I’m pretty strong in my belief that you are greatly exaggerating the amount of combat it took, and frankly experiencing this process 18 times gives me a pretty strong standing point I think.

And i experienced it 16 times.

Tell you what:

ANet listen, implement small bar on weapon skills that will slowly fill up with xp as you gain it and the skill unlock will, just by big coicidence, unlock exatly when you ding lvl 2-4-7-10.

There you go, you get your little bar back since some peole are unusually fixated on it.

Ashen.2907:

MikaHR.1978:

Its very simple: if you didnt intentionally grind mobs you didnt get weapon skills for a long long time, MUCH longer than now

I didn’t intentionally grind mobs and got my weapon skills by level 5-6. Level 5-6 is, “a long long time, MUCH longer than now ?”

On all weapons?

every class has a different amount of weapons.
If you are level 15 weapon skills unlock super fast.
The old system adapted to the player better
if you have interest in a weapon early you can fully use it earlier
if you have little interest, it will be easy to unlock later when you have more experience.
as you use the weapon you get each skill the more you use the weapon

It actually makes a lot more sense, and is way more adaptive system than the current one.

For example lets take a new player who played like you played, you actually have less desire for combat anyway. you are more interested in non combat activities, and if you were new, you would have less knowledge about weaponskills.
therefore, it would be logical that you would learn them later. You dont need them, barely use them, and arent familiar with what any of them do.

The game actually better adapted to your actual experience with each weapon, and in combat before.
Now, a new player like yourself, who they believe can only handle skills at a rate at like 5 skills every 1-1.5 hours of combat, gets a whole bunch of skills at once with no explanation and no pacing. You have the experience of killing 10 monsters, and they threw 5x the unique weapon sets at you.

how is that more intructive/less options as players are ready for them/etc.

its really not at all. but it fits your playstyle better, that i cant argue. Too bad now everyone has to play your playstyle to get the most enjoyment.

rofl, nothing you write is logical

the new system has much much more freedom than old one.

its THAT simple.

Asking for a little bar in your weapon skill to fill up – guess thats simple too, as i said, few players are fixated on it so ANet, please.

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

And what would you know about opinion of majority.

Thats why this whole thread is pretty much hogwash. Including OP.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sokia.3710:

Vayne.8563:

See, this is my problem. People comment about the new patch without actually having tried the new patch. Here’s the reward for finishing the tutorial in the new patch, with the new guardian I just made to test it out.

It’s a mace, slightly better than the one you have when you start, to teach you to change weapons, just like I said. I know you don’t like that patch, but you really shouldn’t be talking about it unless you’ve tried it. That’s my objection to a lot of the stuff people having been saying. Much of it is demonstrably untrue.

Arenanet still hasn’t given me my free character slot so I can test out stuff like this without having to delete one of my existing characters.

Just sayin’

Then maybe you should refrain from talking about things easily disproven. Like the choice of weapon reward?

And while this wasn’t you, the person who was talking about “no more juveniles out in the starter area” . . . I found one in fifteen seconds in Wayfarer Foothills.

The list goes on of things which were talked about being locked or unavailble which could be proven false within an hour of starting a new character.

And there you have it, the amount of missinformation these people started spreading really begs a question what exactly is their goal.

or do they think they provide sime kind of feedback, but first rule of feedback would, i guess, be “know whadda hell youre talking about”, as what they provide is pretty much – just meaningless spam

Found juvenile in caledon forest (jaguar?) in lvl 7 area.

Mister Midnight.9837:

MikaHR.1978:

Mister Midnight.9837:

I can’t even comprehend how you’d manage to ignore enough aggressive enemies that pursue you for 15 levels to not get these abilities just by defending yourself, but I guess some people just run past enemies?

Obviously I can’t say your experiences are invalid as much as you cannot attempt to invalidate mine.

It seems to me a reasonable middle-ground would have been to just reduce the number of kills (Because it isn’t about hits. One hit counts as much as 20 on a single kill in the old system) for those people that…don’t seem to fight enemies as much as most other players?

Most other players?

Please explain how you know what “most other players” do or like?

The way they changed it it quite seems most other players didnt like to JUST grind mobs for basic weapon functionality and they actually DID miss skills to play with for far too long. And when they finally got new weapon type – all over again.

Honestly this is a complaint I pretty much never saw, maybe it’s just me.

Your entire argument doesn’t even make sense, it is a FACT you will have at least two if not three of your first weapon skills before you leave that level 1 tutorial. You never had to wait until leveling up to acquire your weapon skills. You didn’t even have to TRY, you could have leeched one hit off an enemy someone else was fighting. Is there really any regular enemy in this game that takes very long to kill anyway?

Let me emphasize that point: You have to WAIT to get a weapon skill. You seriously have to WAIT until you are ALLOWED to have that, rather than being able to pick up any weapon you desire and smack a handful of heads to get yourself started. As you level up higher the process took even fewer kills. This was never something that took actual effort.

I’m pretty strong in my belief that you are greatly exaggerating the amount of combat it took, and frankly experiencing this process 18 times gives me a pretty strong standing point I think.

And i experienced it 16 times.

Tell you what:

ANet listen, implement small bar on weapon skills that will slowly fill up with xp as you gain it and the skill unlock will, just by big coicidence, unlock exatly when you ding lvl 2-4-7-10.

There you go, you get your little bar back since some peole are unusually fixated on it.

Ashen.2907:

MikaHR.1978:

Its very simple: if you didnt intentionally grind mobs you didnt get weapon skills for a long long time, MUCH longer than now

I didn’t intentionally grind mobs and got my weapon skills by level 5-6. Level 5-6 is, “a long long time, MUCH longer than now ?”

On all weapons?

Well, it could be:

Weekly:

1. Take 5 sentries OR 5 camps
2. Take 5 towers OR 5 keeps
3. Spend 50 supply
4. Kill 20 enemy players

Mister Midnight.9837:

I can’t even comprehend how you’d manage to ignore enough aggressive enemies that pursue you for 15 levels to not get these abilities just by defending yourself, but I guess some people just run past enemies?

Obviously I can’t say your experiences are invalid as much as you cannot attempt to invalidate mine.

It seems to me a reasonable middle-ground would have been to just reduce the number of kills (Because it isn’t about hits. One hit counts as much as 20 on a single kill in the old system) for those people that…don’t seem to fight enemies as much as most other players?

Most other players?

Please explain how you know what “most other players” do or like?

The way they changed it it quite seems most other players didnt like to JUST grind mobs for basic weapon functionality and they actually DID miss skills to play with for far too long. And when they finally got new weapon type – all over again.

Mister Midnight.9837:

MikaHR.1978:

Mister Midnight.9837:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

you didnt have to endlessly grind monsters, you just had to kill them while doing whatever you were doing.
If you gained great exp while doing so, and was like level 10, the system then makes it so you get them with even less kills.

you can like whatever you like, but unlocking a weapon was no where near endlessly grinding mobs.
i guess the point is you hate killing monsters while you play. Ok thats a valid reason for yourself, but most other people dont mind killing monsters while doing hearts/events/getting mats from enemies, etc.

Yes, it WAS endlessly grinding mobs just to get basic weapon funtionality.

You seem VERY unaware that hearts/events had non combat aspects to them.

“getting mats from enemies” no, from nodes.

Nothing BUT endlessly killng mobs gave basic weapon funtionality.

Now you have freedom to play as you want. If you dont want to depopulate area of lvl1 boars, you know, just because, you dont have to.

But if you enjoyed it – knock yourself out, it hasnt been removed.

And people talk about removing freedom….rofl

What? No it doesn’t. I changed weapon preferences on a level 40 character and unlocked all of my abilities within 5 kills. I had even once unlocked all underwater skills all at once from a single kill on a higher level character that had never ventured into underwater combat.

Uhm, we are talking level 2-5-7-10 here. You know, new player expereince, for new players.

It still wasn’t “grinding endlessly”

I’ve had the first three before even finishing the tutorial on most of the 18 characters I made before the update. I’ve tried every weapon with every class. It does not, never did, take any inordinate amount of time.

Ive reached lvl 15+ on some characters (before NPE, that means quite a few levels more now) and still havent unlocked all skills (and at one time i had a full set of lvl 1 blue weapons JUST for that endevour)

Yes, it seemed endlessly.

Its very simple: if you didnt intentionally grind mobs you didnt get weapon skills for a long long time, MUCH longer than now.

Now it is actually “play as you want” and you will get all your weapon skills realtively quickly no matter how you prefer to play.

Mister Midnight.9837:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

you didnt have to endlessly grind monsters, you just had to kill them while doing whatever you were doing.
If you gained great exp while doing so, and was like level 10, the system then makes it so you get them with even less kills.

you can like whatever you like, but unlocking a weapon was no where near endlessly grinding mobs.
i guess the point is you hate killing monsters while you play. Ok thats a valid reason for yourself, but most other people dont mind killing monsters while doing hearts/events/getting mats from enemies, etc.

Yes, it WAS endlessly grinding mobs just to get basic weapon funtionality.

You seem VERY unaware that hearts/events had non combat aspects to them.

“getting mats from enemies” no, from nodes.

Nothing BUT endlessly killng mobs gave basic weapon funtionality.

Now you have freedom to play as you want. If you dont want to depopulate area of lvl1 boars, you know, just because, you dont have to.

But if you enjoyed it – knock yourself out, it hasnt been removed.

And people talk about removing freedom….rofl

What? No it doesn’t. I changed weapon preferences on a level 40 character and unlocked all of my abilities within 5 kills. I had even once unlocked all underwater skills all at once from a single kill on a higher level character that had never ventured into underwater combat.

Uhm, we are talking level 2-5-7-10 here. You know, new player expereince, for new players.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

you didnt have to endlessly grind monsters, you just had to kill them while doing whatever you were doing.
If you gained great exp while doing so, and was like level 10, the system then makes it so you get them with even less kills.

you can like whatever you like, but unlocking a weapon was no where near endlessly grinding mobs.
i guess the point is you hate killing monsters while you play. Ok thats a valid reason for yourself, but most other people dont mind killing monsters while doing hearts/events/getting mats from enemies, etc.

Yes, it WAS endlessly grinding mobs just to get basic weapon funtionality.

You seem VERY unaware that hearts/events had non combat aspects to them.

“getting mats from enemies” no, from nodes.

Nothing BUT endlessly killng mobs gave basic weapon funtionality.

Now you have freedom to play as you want. If you dont want to depopulate area of lvl1 boars, you know, just because, you dont have to.

But if you enjoyed it – knock yourself out, it hasnt been removed.

And people talk about removing freedom….rofl

Erick Alastor.3917:

MikaHR.1978:

Erick Alastor.3917:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

And this is it, I don’t like the update, so everything I don’t like about the game is because of the update, like that guy who made that video that said that now you can’t die in the tutorial anymore…which has been true forever. But you know, let’s blame this update.

This update killed my cat!

And kicked the Puppy!

But at least now some people pay attention to some stuff. Its at least partial success ;D

The update is pretty bad and if you play you should know that people aren’t complaining just on the forum. The only people that are not complaining are the ones that never knew how it was before the patch, but if you explain how it was they say they would have preferred levelling with the old system.
On a positive note, at least for the veterans, with the excuse that is all a giant bug, they will revert the changes.

P.s. You’re coming back posting on forum after a long hiatus and you agree with basically every post Vayne is creating. Are you a stolen account or what?
I’m the only one that remember the MikaHR battling against Ascended and Vayne’s opinion with 89 posts in the same thread? °____°

Dude i have 11 80ies and 5 more lowbies of various levels.

Me not posting on forums is really not your concern.

Do you think i consider GW2 100% perfect game?

Do you think im so petty that i cant see that people have different opinins on different stuff or hold somekind of a grudge rofl

NPE is peanuts for true vets, its insignificant.

And “vets” have spilled so much missinformation about this that they needed a dev to hold their hand through it. Its kinda hard to argue “its not needed” when “vets” themselves prooved its very much needed.

Just stating what I noticed, nothing else, you can post or not post as much as you want xD
Also the problem it’s not huge for vets, and as long as we will be able to “reroll”, they can destroy the whole levelling experience, making it became more and more tedious, year after year, vets will never care, you create a new chara, use a scroll 20, use some tomes, choo choo eotm or reroll reroll rerooooll all the way to 80. Who gives a kitten, right?

Remember this:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The wrong about these changes is not the fact that is damaging vets now, but that is another step away from the direction this game was headed, just like ascended.
This is a little step, but the road is made by walking.

Ascended was a mistake that effected whole game.

This (even if you think its bad) effects first hour-ish of playing. Theres very little locking and in some stuff they even gave more freedom (weapon abilites, thank you)

As much as people harp about it level gaing was in since LAUNCH.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Nick.6972:

There was a pretty good description of the sate of this game currently on Reddit :
Get Gold, Get Gems, Get Pretty, Repeat.

Basically. Guild Wars 2, where super models fight dragons and zombies and spend their downtime getting manicures and makeovers. Welcome to Tyria where everyone’s had at least one nose job.

Theres nothing better than stomp some noob after freshly done nails.

Or listen people whine when you tickle them with (sky)hammer with a brand new and awesome haircut.

Djinn.9245:

MikaHR.1978:

they observed you playing/collecting feedback for past 2 years and this is result.

According to what? Do you have a quote from Anet?

“- Over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system. That is at the end of the day, a win for all of us since all of you need more people to play with! However: if we find in the live environment that isn’t true and we’re not retaining new users better, we’ll absolutely both share that information with you, and continue to iterate to make it better. We keep very real time metrics of player retention for new users, and we’ll know very quickly how effective the work we’ve done is. I want to make it clear: what we used to have absolutely wasn’t good enough for our standards of retaining new users. Before we do some of the other things we want to do with Gw2, we had to fix this, period.”

“Testing was done predominantly in the west focused on players who played guild wars 2 today, people who played gw2 at launch and left, people who heavily play other MMORPG’s, and people who heavily play RPG’s. We did all of this testing ourselves in the west, I’ll just kill right now that this is a system developed for China. It’s a system developed for the global game, period, because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Misconceptions-regarding-Level-gating/page/4

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

phys.7689:

chemiclord.3978:

I’ll add to this thread the further I go.

Because I hate myself, apparently, upon hearing the rage and fury from the online contingent (and knowing if there’s anything the online community loves, it’s irrational rage and hyperbole), I decided to put this “horrible”, “terrible”, “worst patch in history” to the test.

1-10

Because I really hate myself, I chose to level another ranger. Okay, in truth it’s because it’s my primary class and I felt it would be the most easy for me to notice not just significant, but also subtle changes as well.

The first thing I noticed was a complete inability to control my pet, as the pet bar didn’t unlock for me until level 5. Basically set to a guard state, but with no call back until it unlocked, potentially running from combat would be troublesome. However, since level 5 unlocked in about 20 minutes, it was a minor bother at best… not to mention I didn’t actually HAVE to run away from anyone.

Coming up soon… 11-20. Does a shift in unlocking utility skills cause me to blow a gasket? We’ll find out!

your analysis is way off.

If your goal or joy in low leveling was getting levels fast, then its essentially the same, if what you enjoyed low levels was the freedoms, options its totally different.
The best people can say about the new system is that its faster and easier. If that wasnt your main goal, its totally different.

Heres how i would play an alt usually before, and you ll see many of the joys are totally different, increasing boredom.

• starter area, try to kill as many enemies as i can without going out of my way on path to finishing zone, you get better skill unlocks faster in this area, so every kill is still uselful to your charachter although the experience to next level isnt the focus.
• When you finish the starter story, pick a different weapon, or a side weapon, unlocking other skills keeps you focused on aquiring new skills, and killing enemies.
  • picking up new weapons matters, for unlocking purposes, every time you get a new weapon you now have something new to try. (notice my focus of play is only slightly on effecient exp earning)
• By level 3 you probably have 1-2 weapon sets completely unlocked, but you still have other weapon sets, you have the option of using your favorite weapons or unlocking basic ones, it gets easier to unlock weapons he higher level you are.
• Your doing personal story now, its pretty easy at first, but the more above level you go the harder it is. If you actually get equipment, you can kill enemies pretty fast, but they can kill you with a single mistake, feels exciting. If you prefer it easy, you can do open world stuff at your leisure, you have options.
  • hit skill points in areas as soon as possible, this gives you options for more heals, and later, more options for utility skills. Gives extra goals you choose, taking the focus off just grinding exp as fast as possible.

Essentially the old system gives you multiple goals, with choices that effect how you level, and gives you different styles for doing it.

Now, killing any monster at all, that isnt in a dynamic event/heart is ineffecient. Event tagging is the name of the game, tag as many events just enough to get credit, and find new ones. Leveling is focused on hearts, which after the first time i played, i generally avoided unless i could do something else at the same time (like unlocking weapon skills, or dynamic events, or it was a fun heart) The entire goal of low level play now, is effeciently grinding exp. And thats why a lot of people hate it, because now they are watching the pot.

That said, is it the end of the world? not really. Does it change the focus of alt play from exploration and doing what you want, to essentially map completion and event tagging? yes. I mean yeah, its always been a fast way to level, but by gating abilities/traits to higher levels, they decrease the chances you are enjoying being lower level, so what you get overall is a less enjoyable leveling process, and a greater feeling that your primary focus should be leveling effeciently

If you didnt contradict yourself so much,someone would actually think youre serious. You speak a lot about efficiency for soemone who proclaims doesnt care about efficiency.

Weapon skills:

before: grind mobs, grind mobs and then grind some more mobs for every single skill of every single weapon or NO weapons skills for YOU!
after: do whatever you want (including grinding mobs)

Yeah, limiting freedom my kitten

StinVec.3621:

Reduce Low-Level Complexity:
In an effort to reduce early game complexity, enemies that cause conditions, enemies with attacks that require players to dodge, and bundle items were removed from low-level areas.

Despite their stating that enemies that apply conditions were removed in low level (starter) zones (or at least removed their ability to apply conditions), I still encountered enemies in Metrica Province that applied conditions on a new character.

I also encountered at least one condition-applying enemy in Queensdale and Caledon Forest. However, I did not encounter any condition-applying enemies in Wayfarer Foothills. I found at least one in Wayfarer Foothills as well.

I have not entered Plains of Ashford yet to see if I encounter any condition-applying foes in that zone yet.

So far:

• Metrica Province – Still has condition-applying foes
• Caledon Forest – Still has condition-applying foes
• Queensdale – Still has condition-applying foes
• Wayfarer Foothills – Still has condition-applying foes
• Plains of Ashford – Unknown (have not visited there on my new character yet)

Seems they either intentionally left some condition-applying foes in the starter zones and that statement of their being removed is false, or they unintentionally left some foes remain due to not being thorough enough and it is an oversight that they would likely remedy in the future.

---

edit – updated
Also – bundles:
I just remembered that I’ve also encountered some bundle items in the starter zones.
I’m not so sure that patch note statement is actually accurate at all.

They didnt say low level zones, just low level areas. 1-10 is low level area.

Erick Alastor.3917:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

And this is it, I don’t like the update, so everything I don’t like about the game is because of the update, like that guy who made that video that said that now you can’t die in the tutorial anymore…which has been true forever. But you know, let’s blame this update.

This update killed my cat!

And kicked the Puppy!

But at least now some people pay attention to some stuff. Its at least partial success ;D

The update is pretty bad and if you play you should know that people aren’t complaining just on the forum. The only people that are not complaining are the ones that never knew how it was before the patch, but if you explain how it was they say they would have preferred levelling with the old system.
On a positive note, at least for the veterans, with the excuse that is all a giant bug, they will revert the changes.

P.s. You’re coming back posting on forum after a long hiatus and you agree with basically every post Vayne is creating. Are you a stolen account or what?
I’m the only one that remember the MikaHR battling against Ascended and Vayne’s opinion with 89 posts in the same thread? °____°

Dude i have 11 80ies and 5 more lowbies of various levels.

Me not posting on forums is really not your concern.

Do you think i consider GW2 100% perfect game?

Do you think im so petty that i cant see that people have different opinins on different stuff or hold somekind of a grudge rofl

NPE is peanuts for true vets, its insignificant.

And “vets” have spilled so much missinformation about this that they needed a dev to hold their hand through it. Its kinda hard to argue “its not needed” when “vets” themselves prooved its very much needed.

chemiclord.3978:

Vayne’s trying far too hard to prove what we already know. The general thrust of the forum hates the new leveling system, for whatever reason. He didn’t need a vote to prove that. So yeah, he’s spinning a wee bit.

That said, he’s not ENTIRELY wrong that elsewhere the response (outside of the initial revulsion) has been less venomous. I dunno if I’d call it balanced, but that certainly the most rabid hate (like usual) has been on the official forums.

If you look closely on it its just couple of people going back and forth anyways.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

MikaHR.1978:

Sokia.3710:

It’s because having monsters poison you when the monster info says that they poison is too confusing for new players.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

The irony is now because they have the old abilities listed but don’t use them the enemies are even more confusing.

Baseless rants are baseless

I’m going assume you don’t know what rant means considering the context you used it within. Because this isn’t a rant. Not even remotely rant-like.

Everyone can judge for themselves.

Or you now presume its all too confusing?

Rogue.7856:

Yeah the removal of the hint system was a pretty bad change. I think they should have kept it. This leveling info pop up is only temporary and once you click accept, your hints are gone for good.

:D

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Where was the PTR then?

That would depend.

Did the company in question actually listen to the PTR data?

I beta’d Cata and Pandaria.

Wanna know one of the reasons they tanked so bad, despite having betas and PTRs?

Because Blizzard didn’t actually -do- anything with all the information that had been gathered in the various beta forums after a certain point. In some instances, they outright ignored the data that had been gathered.

But no, you obviously must be right. PTRs are worthless because of your crappy experiences in RIFT.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the question becomes, is the PTR and the potential to catch issues worth the investment of time, money, and hardware?

Only if you actually act upon the data gathered.

Some people have this romantic idea that they will greatly effect content if there was a PTR.

Theres a lot of stuff discovered on PTR, and while some is squished, most of those roll out to live anyway.

Just a funny anecdote, when SWTOR rolled out PTR there was no means of insta max level so if you wanted to actually test endgame content you had to level to max and farm gear for it just as in live. And it was like that for a long long time

Vayne.8563:

And this is it, I don’t like the update, so everything I don’t like about the game is because of the update, like that guy who made that video that said that now you can’t die in the tutorial anymore…which has been true forever. But you know, let’s blame this update.

This update killed my cat!

And kicked the Puppy!

But at least now some people pay attention to some stuff. Its at least partial success ;D

Sokia.3710:

It’s because having monsters poison you when the monster info says that they poison is too confusing for new players.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

The irony is now because they have the old abilities listed but don’t use them the enemies are even more confusing.

Baseless rants are baseless

Avascar.9237:

I’ve been wandering around in starter zones, only finding that the mobs don’t do what the game says they do. A drake in Ashford Plains don’t do knockback, Forest Spiders in Queensdale don’t poison, and Sons of Svanir in Wayfarer Foothills don’t freeze and bleed, but they do knockback and cripple. I’ve come across a Son of Svanir, the abilities it said was knockback and bleed, but he only did knockback.

Fish in Metricas first lake (barracudas iirc) said they"bleed/ sumoned allies"

they never did

before the update

think they are gone now

probably due to misbehavior ;P

It was like that before the update.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

you say things, but i actually read the CDI, it was about SKILLS, not traits, and people whining the game is complete at 30 were not the people even asking for horizontal progression. That would be vertical progression, which in the cdi, people were actively avoiding talking about even when the devs steered the cdi to that topic, and trying to talk about horizontal progression again.

I do know people who complained about game feeling complete at 30, but they were generally shouted down by a great many players for every person asking for that.

So no, it was not the masses they were listening to, they may have listened to one guy that a lot of other people were disagreeing with, but that seems to suggest they were just gonna do what they wanted anyhow, and were not following the desires of the people.

They listened to “the community”. Because you know what? Everyone claims he is “the community”

Just as claim you are “the community”. Why should they listen to you now? You are also shouted down by many now.

So yeah, i wouldnt even blink if ANet doesnt listen to “the commuity” ever again.

AND there are NO “masses” on the forums, just a loud tiny group inside a small group that greatly differs in need and wants than rest of the playerbase.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

Vayne.8563:

Okay so ranger pet skills F1 and F3 unlock at level 5, Screenshot attached. This is the sort of thing I mean. If you can’t live for 5 levels in the current climate without calling your pet back….I don’t know what to say. And you know if you die, it’s not the biggest deal in the world either, because there’s no armor repair and waypoints are dirt cheap at that level.

Edit: The time between my two posts was 26 minutes btw. That’s how much time it took me to make a new character and level that character to five. I was using no experience booster, food or potion.

No WAI, that 26 minutes without recall pet RUIN WHOLE RANGER CLASS! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!

yeah ;P

Behellagh.1468:

Then why did you say this then?

Sokia.3710:

If by “dancing chest” you mean “a huge text window that covers your entire screen” then, yes, the new level-up pop-up is a dancing chest.

Because baseless rants on forums are what cool kids do now.

Windsagio.1340:

False meta aside, the ugly dungeon environment pushed me to do PVP to get the skins I wanted. It’s a bizarre situation where group collaberative work is the most ugly possible social environment

Its been like that in every MMO for quite a while now.

Unless youre in a guild (and what exalted ones call “casual guild” where scrubs run dungeons without “required class/build/gear”) you need very thick skin.

Its because reward driven system. Run doesnt matter, people dont matter (they are just tools you use to get shiney), all that matters is getting to shiney as fast as you can and if someone is “below optimum” its leet insult time. And then its time to look up the definition of anti-social (no, it doesnt mean “soloer that never groups”)

nethykins.7986:

MikaHR.1978:

nethykins.7986:

MikaHR.1978:

nethykins.7986:

-snip-

What exactly do you think makes them do (or do not) stuff.

A multitude of things:
Financial gain.
Under-estimation of workload.
Being understaffed.
Management or higher up giving commands to change.
Easier changes = Less work to do. May not be beneficial in the long run, but easy to implement.

And a lot more.

Now imagine that they went on and create this awsome, mid blowing tutorial (mind you they need 5 of those), but it would take 2 years and considerable work force (taling large amunt from allother content)

Would that be better or worse than this?

I’d say it’d be better, because they’d have fulfilled what they set out to do of actually teaching new players how a lot of game elements work instead of just unlocking elements without any guidance

But in all honesty, that’s something we will never know.

I’m guessing the assumption you’re making is that it’d take a long time?
I’m quite sure of that.
However, I’m also sure that what we have now probably took a considerable amount of time and workforce and it’s not particularly helpful. I’ve stated in previous posts, it may have made it faster from 1-15, but does that mean it does a good job of showing new players the ropes, especially when the speed of levelling has increased?

Ah, but you assume thats the only requirement. But its really not that simple (it would be in ideal world with infinite resources).

What they set out to do is probably something lik this:

1. Creat new player expereince that adequatly (not best mind you) teaches new players the basics
2. do it in alloted time (China launch)
3. do it with alloted resources

And too many people fixate on levels, when they mean so little. They wanted to show something new with each level, but in start of the game theres lot to show, and they streamlined it a bit to have more control over how fast it goes at those early levels (pacing). Noone can actually tell is it right or not, cat and box, dead or alive and all that.

hydeaut.1758:

MikaHR.1978:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Forums are as skewed sample as it gets.

And where does the article say that LOTRO-raiders have the same opinion or are a not representative group on topics even outside of raids? (as it´s also bad, we won´t have much GW2-raiders here on the forum . . .)

The article says only the same I said: the forum represents the more engaged and informed players (who raiders usually should be).

And thats exactly the point: number of posters and posters themselves cannot claim they representanyone but themselves. While forum posters view MIGHT align with playerbase view you would first need proof that they are in fact representative sample (Yelling on forums “IM RIGHT” doesnt prove anything as clearly picturedin teh example i provided. EVEN IF OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of forums yells “IM RIGHT”)

And forum posters cannot do that. The only one who can do that is ANet, and they said they have done that (by 2 years of metrics/feedback) AND that they will monitor what happens and react accordingly (for whatever its worth, but they clearly said so)

To clrify on my previous example: if you poll on certain political party gathering “who is the best candidate for president” it MIGHT turn out later that that guy IS best candidate. But what you didnt have in your poll was representative sample and you had skewed results at the time.

Changer the Elder.2948:

MikaHR.1978:

Changer the Elder.2948:

Djinn.9245:

Yep, they nerfed the wonderful heart where you turn into a fern hound in Caledon. I loved that heart!

SERIOUSLY?! This update is getting more stupid by the minute. No pet control until you have driver’s license, removing renown hearts that were actual FUN to do because new delicate babies might die of the awesomeness overdose or something…

Could someone on the forum staff please parade the individual who thought all these changes were a good idea to present and defend WHY they were a good idea in their twisted little personal universe?

Because they observed you playing/collecting feedback for past 2 years and this is result.

I know, i know, its everyone elses falut but yours and all that.

In which case, their methods are rather flawed. First of all, these kinds of changes are incompatible with just watching the players play their game with no feedback (but in a fridge brilliance way, it would explain why the update’s so bad).

Second of all, how on earth would you, from watching players complete a map, deduce they like one renown heart over the next? Would you make some complex algorithm that would count the amount of bounces we make divide by steps we take and multiply by the time we spent idly ogling the scenery? If so, how can the mechanism know when we stand idly watching the scenery mesmerised by it, and when we stand idly because we got bored and went for a cigarette break, or when we stand idly because our cat suddenly caught fire and real life needs our attention more than a videogame?

Third of all, the update has not only a bad idea, but also is very badly implemented. In a game where each class plays differently and requires different skillset, attitude and game style, having a SET GATE same for ALL classes is just inexcusably stupid oversight. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I remember correctly, warrior only has one F-bound thing, and that’s the adrenaline attack on the F1 key, so locking out the F bar only robs the warrior of one single (albeit strong) attack and it gets unlocked quite early on anyway, because it’s the F1 function. Compare that to the experience of a starting ranger, who’s pet is a kitten loose cannon you cannot control in any way, because you cannot call it off (F3), call it to specific target (F1) or swap it for another (F4) until you’re big enough to do grown up stuff like that, which robs you of 20-40% of your damage output, not to mention it actively DAMAGES YOUR PLAY.

As a side note, I distictly remember the preview saying rangers get a lot of love in this patch. Don’t make me laugh that loud, it’s 1 AM here, neighbors will complain.

Elementalists have a similar problem.

Seriously, if you want to tell me that ANet used divination powers and deduced that no players until level ten use the no. 5 skill on their weapon or that elementalists only discover they can go rocky on level 24, they have been watching some very badly written bots, and not actual players.

Well, you can harp how their 2 years of experience with the game is wrong and overwritten by your personal experience. They have 2 years worth of metrics/feedback.

My personal experience from last 2 years is that lots and lots of these “vets” need even more handholding.

Ele is very specific class and i can certainly see why holding off of their attunements can be justified. Same boat for mesmer. Even a lot of “vets” cant play these classes nearly to full potential. While these changes wont make world of difference they might at least draw attention and give new players a bit of time to get comfortable with attunement/skills (as weapons are not locked, just attunements)

Ranger pet skills could be sooner, as well as Guardian ones. Engineer is again special snowflake, and, while it gets most limited weapon selection gets “weapon swap” at lvl 13 (with kit) opposed to others who get those at 15.

And rangers did get a lot of love, whines have started already ;P

hydeaut.1758:

MikaHR.1978:

Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

Probably a waste, but I bet you might once have heard that statistics on opinions and votes use only tiny groups and not 95% of a full group?

And I would say that a game-forum is almost as representative as can be as people come here for information first (and not only complainers).

So if the forum is a non-representative group than it´s because the average forum-user is more engaged and informed compared to an average player.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Forums are as skewed sample as it gets.

And if you paid attention, to get somewhat acceptable result you need REPRESENTATIVE sample (unless you want certain outcomes in which case you use skewed sample)

It would be like going to certain political party gathering and poll there “who will win the elections” or “who is best candidate for prime minister/president”.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

You stilldont get it.

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

first of all, im pretty sure he didnt just post that poll here, but also on reddit, which people dont specifically go to to complain.
second of all, when you compare this feedback to other forum polls that have been posted, you very rarely find these type of numbers. its usually a lot more balanced even within the forum.

third of all compare it to how many people are coming to complain on the forums compared to other things.

if you usually only get 20 people complaining, and you instead get 80 people, going out of there way to complain about that specific thing, it tells you something.

Notice how many people felt like weighing in on this poll, most of the straw polls here are lucky to get 200 people to respond. This poll is over 1000 people

you are ignoring a lot of information hoping that the 95% that you have no info on secretly love it when a lot of indicators are not coming up positive.
yes statistics are tricky, yes they can be skewed, but when your statistics show something you believe to be innacurate, you have to actually go, investigate and see if they are, and why they are.

then there goes the other side, forget statistics, the reasoning people provide for disliking the systems, and how it clashes with its intended purposes are also solid. What actual reasoning tells you its a good idea to gate skills behind leveling in this game? how does it enhance the game play experience? Why is it reasonably better to get an elite at 40 than 30, your final utility at 35 instead of 20? to only have access to 4 skills for 40 minutes?
what about those things enhances the gameplay?

reddit is the same boat as forums. Skewed sample.

Oh look whos talking, you also ignore load of information and OPENLY hope that 80% of those 95% doesnt like the changes, and accusing someone who hasnt said a word on it that he “secretly hopes” rofl

Oh yes, lets toss everything aside and look at whining of tiny group inside a small group that is completely different than rest of the playerbase. In other words, yell “LISTEN TO ME!” Guess what? thats the same way those raiders responded on LOTRO forums.

And what makes you think getting all those stuff on some arbitrary level diminishes experience of majority of people? What would be te number? 22? 25,68? 32,85? that would be SO AWESOME! And based on what? Your personal experience?

And you conveniently forget that, while you have access to only 4 skills for short period of time you get LOT more skills after that opposed to before (every weapon is unlocked, no more grinding weapon skills) I prefer the latter and former was a definition of needless grind.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop to give praise to the product?

what do you mean by return to a shop, people often return to shops they like?

I edited, return to the shop JUST to complain or praise the product, not for anything else.

How many times you bought something, were satisfied with it and went back to the shop with no other intention than to say “i just adore your product”?

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

You stilldont get it.

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop shortly after to complain/praise your pants (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop JUST to give praise to the product?

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Changer the Elder.2948:

Djinn.9245:

Yep, they nerfed the wonderful heart where you turn into a fern hound in Caledon. I loved that heart!

SERIOUSLY?! This update is getting more stupid by the minute. No pet control until you have driver’s license, removing renown hearts that were actual FUN to do because new delicate babies might die of the awesomeness overdose or something…

Could someone on the forum staff please parade the individual who thought all these changes were a good idea to present and defend WHY they were a good idea in their twisted little personal universe?

Because they observed you playing/collecting feedback for past 2 years and this is result.

I know, i know, its everyone elses falut but yours and all that.

Which suggests that their choice of getting feedback, or the solutions they chose for the problems presented, is not good, because a large number of players dislike the last few implementations of these major features.

Now i am not saying people are stupid for proposing these ideas, but somewhere along the development process, some of these ideas should have been adjusted or tweaked, or had tangential systems considered.

Some players dislile changes, but no matter what they do some will dislike changes.

It will never ever be 100% staisfaction.

And no thing is perfect and there always can be improvements, its just a question is it worth the effort getting those improvements or would gains of improving something else result in muc more effect.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

People aren’t all going for their pitchforks anymore, only a few really disenfranchised people are still moaning.

Yeah, that real slight 48%. How very minor.

Do you understand trend. 80 to 50% in what, two days. lol

We’ll see who’s right in two weeks time. I should also point out, I posted that poll to reddit before I posted on the forum and the poll was far far more equal.

Then the forum people came in, voted when I posted it here and downvoted the post, so less and less reddit people would end up seeing it.

Not that I expected anything less.

The fact is, off the forum, on reddit, before the forum voted, the poll was a whole lot different.

That tells me something too. Anyway that’s my last post for today. G’night.

A smaller sample size (ie. only reddit), with a larger margin of error, tickles Vayne’s confirmation bias, it’s balanced.
When the sample size gets larger, by pooling the official forum, and it does not agree with Vayne’s view point, there’s a tin foil hat conspiracy going on.
If it tips ever back in his favor, he’ll be all ‘I told you so’.

It’s always a win-win situation for Vayne. I guess he’s gone back to polish the pedestal for a while.

Forums will never ever be representative of the playerbase, simply from point they are overwhemingly biased to one certain type of player which is only a tiny part of playerbase AND vastly different than rest of the playerbase.

Lucius.2140:

Nokaru.7831:

Felkes.2759:

Good on never seeing the Tequatl revamp. I kittening hate that content. It used to be fun, now it’s just a big pain in the kitten and a constant frustration.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I am glad this game will not be designed democratically. Because people like this outnumber everyone else.

Actually the changes in the leveling system were made in base of the metrics and feedback they got from testers, free trials etc…

Its made on all expereince gathered by ANet in past 2 years from multiple sources vast majority on NA/EU servers.