Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Nokaru.7831:

The last thing I’d want is a game designed democratically.

Absolute truth.

“What players want” is such a hogwash. If you ask 1000 players what they want youll get 5000 different stuff.

And if you pick 3 to make youll get 997 saying they dont listen to community and 3 saying you are lazy and didnt make ALL they wanted

the skill of being a good engineer/designer is figuring out what people need/want from feedback and giving them solutions that work.

Figuring out what a project needs, is not always about listening to what everyone says, but if when it actually comes to fruition, everyone dislikes it, you have failed at making a product.

Who is this “everyone”? You?

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Nokaru.7831:

The last thing I’d want is a game designed democratically.

Absolute truth.

“What players want” is such a hogwash. If you ask 1000 players what they want youll get 5000 different stuff.

And if you pick 3 to make youll get 997 saying they dont listen to community and 3 saying you are lazy and didnt make ALL they wanted

nethykins.7986:

MikaHR.1978:

nethykins.7986:

-snip-

What exactly do you think makes them do (or do not) stuff.

A multitude of things:
Financial gain.
Under-estimation of workload.
Being understaffed.
Management or higher up giving commands to change.
Easier changes = Less work to do. May not be beneficial in the long run, but easy to implement.

And a lot more.

Now imagine that they went on and create this awsome, mid blowing tutorial (mind you they need 5 of those), but it would take 2 years and considerable work force (taling large amunt from allother content)

Would that be better or worse than this?

Changer the Elder.2948:

Djinn.9245:

Yep, they nerfed the wonderful heart where you turn into a fern hound in Caledon. I loved that heart!

SERIOUSLY?! This update is getting more stupid by the minute. No pet control until you have driver’s license, removing renown hearts that were actual FUN to do because new delicate babies might die of the awesomeness overdose or something…

Could someone on the forum staff please parade the individual who thought all these changes were a good idea to present and defend WHY they were a good idea in their twisted little personal universe?

Because they observed you playing/collecting feedback for past 2 years and this is result.

I know, i know, its everyone elses falut but yours and all that.

Same as before, this and that, here and there. Whtever im in mood for.

Oh, and Wasteland 2 is coming along Pillars of Eternity later this year. Those 2 along with GW2 should be pretty much good till next year

Maliel.8362:

Is “leveling alts” code for keyfarming?

For most of the complainers – yes.

Aedelric.1287:

Vayne.8563:

my support is coming out of the woodwork today…

I argue with people…

I elected myself to do so….

Well, this sums your character up nicely.

People have a right to believe and think what they want, you arguing with them just because you personally do not believe the same thing is not helpful or constructive.

Well, OP seems to have same idea, but i dont see you saying anything about that.

Rants and tantrums are also not constructive or helpful in any way.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

No, I’m saying the entire change was made for a specific purpose. Anet has outlined that purpose for us. They told us why. They told us the way it was wasn’t working period. End of story. There’s no room to argue there.

Anet tested what would work better and came up with this. If 25% of the player base hates it and leaves, but more people take up the game on free weekends, it’ll probably be a decent deal over time for Anet. They’re a business. They don’t make changes to the game only because players like them. They make changes to the game to grow the game financially as well.

So you don’t get to pick and choose in this case. If you don’t like it, and Anet won’t modify it to your liking because they have other concerns than just what you like, you can choose to leave or you can choose to stay.

You can’t dictate terms based on just your likes and dislikes. It doesn’t work that way.

Yes I have read what Anet wrote. My take is they “think” more new players will retain if they did it that way.

but does the new system work better for veterans? Especially those that already is accustomed for the old system?

quite honestly I dont’ know the answer. I think most people hate grind for legendary, but that is what many people end up doing.

veterans says they hate the unlocks, but will more of them actually want to level up alt? Maybe they’ll felt more rewarding so they’ll end up grind to 80? Apparently ANet think it works for new players. That is my question.

besides, anet already says they are going to make changes to traits for veterans with multiple alts. I’m not sure what Anet will do.

As far as vets go, dont think (this particular update) it will have much effect if any. Traits are much much bigger offender in the grand scheme of things.

New players – they have hypothesis and its about to be tested ;P

Tachenon.5270:

Hyperbolic hint: this thread was not originally about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb), and only derailed into discussion about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder) thanks to the contributions of a handful of folks who for reasons unknown to science seem to want it to be about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder plus classic Creature From the Black Lagoon dun dun DUN musical accent).

The ‘gamers’ who are ‘still here, still playing’ referenced in the opening post are not limited to only those gamers who also happen to frequent these hallowed forums, nor is the burgeoning (that means getting bigger) dissatisfaction in regard to GW2 among gamers restricted to only those gamers who frequent these hallowed forums.

Smoke gets in your eyes, after all, and mirrors would do well to reflect a little more before sending back images.

Yeah, you dont seem to get a hint with “tiny group within a small group”

tigirius.9014:

MikaHR.1978:

What exactly do you HAVE TO pay for to progress in GW2. Im curious, i have 11 80-ies and i didnt have to pay for anything? Elaborate on that, maybe i missed something progressing 11 characters to max level to completely progress without being forced to pay for anything.

And, just for record, nobody called GW2 F2P game, dont know where you got that.

AND i got much more of everything that i got for FREE in GW2 after the initial purchase than i got from all that wasted sub money since i strted playing MMOs in 2002. So yeah, theres that also.

But i agree, for instance, SWTOR has abbysmal F2P model thats based on just gambling boxes (its just a matter of time until taxman look into that) and recolored stuff AND buying freaking pieces of UI lol

let me clarify so that everyone can keep up in the class. If you have one of those PermaDR accounts and or the so called unlucky accounts, you cannot earn which means you can go do anything in the game and the drops just do not flow. So that means you don’t earn gold. Add to that the fact that they nickle and dime you while leveling (5 silver when you complete a map) but expect gold for things like traits to catchup with your buddies and there you are. Gold shouldn’t be tied to progression at all. It’s fine for racial armors (although I disagree with that practice too but for other reasons) but for sigils/runes and specific new types of armors of which are not on karma vendors, and trait costs those are progression systems.

They put karma into the game for a reason, I’m simply reminding them that they should make karma the system to use for progression not gold.

They can charge all they want for cosmetics I don’t mind that, they can make people pay for hearthstones I don’t mind that too much but progression on an unlucky account is what I’m specifically talking about.

And the reason you’re confused probably means that you don’t have one of those. Thousands have reported having those types of accounts and most likely left the game a while back because of the ongoing problems with the economy and how this game is designed under the hood. And let me tell you another thing for those doubters out there. It happens. When you see those same guild buddies with the same magic find as you doing the same events week in and week out ending up with everything and the kitchen sink and you get nothing month after month after month, there’s a problem, and it’s not simply a matter of RNG.

Does that clear it up now? Oh btw, in order for a toxically RNG system to seem “meaningful” to the elite, it has to make almost everyone not get drops at all.

Anyway, people didn’t just start leaving the game because something they didn’t like in their imagination, they started leaving because things like this. The game isn’t rewarding and even the devs recognized it 7 months ago promising a rewards revamp. Even with the changes to the system for personal story, what happens to make people leave occurs after reaching level 80. When all you get are the mandatory rares/exotics (1 at a time mind you) from boss events, there’s a serious issue with your rewards system.

Even WoW’s open world event system on their island is more rewarding at this point.

If they want people back they’ll have to add the carrot on a stick beyond the skins thing otherwise people will continue to leave and stay gone and a couple of years down the road they will be known as “Remember that game that had unlucky accounts that no matter what you did nothing would drop, and people on the forums actually defended that like it was okay or something! yeah that one!”

oh yes, and there i was thinking you talk about actual progression, how dumb of me, ill go stand in the corner now

No….type…of….progression….is….locked….behind….cash….shop….in….GW….2.

Just so everyone in class can keep up.

laokoko.7403:

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

IMHO, revamping the whole leveling system was a good idea but poorly done.

If ANet fears new players have difficulty understanding the game, why not simply turn the first mission into a 1-man tutorial instance? Like

I don’t think that is the entire reason.

I think Anet just push trait, or skills to unlock later so it “seemed” more rewarding to level up.

Yes, and thats direct result of whining that “leveling is not rewading enough” and “it sucks because your character is complete by level 30” and “GW1 was so awsome and skill hunting was so awesome GW2 suxxorz (sponsored by GW1 lot)”

So yeah.

Looka.6078:

I have my very own suggestion on a vote and this is directly addressed to the maintainers of this forum:

- Please allow comment voting on your forum. As in user/poster rating. This way I’m pretty sure that both ArenaNet and the players (read CUSTOMERS) will benefit. Here’s how:

a. 1st of all ArenaNet will get yet another means of understanding what the “voice of the customer” is. Also, as in many cases there will be no more doubt if one customer’s opinion is a stranded, isolated one or, au contraire, is a shared opinion. The more “pro” or “against” votes on a post(er) will surely help clear the fog in front of ArenaNet’s eyes. For good.

The very same mechanics may leave some posters here (and maybe their wives) out of job. Starving children, of course might just follow the evidence of getting “disclosed” as a hired poster. Old players already know what I’m talking about. And of course, as opposed to point “a.”, the more “pro” or “against” votes on a post(er) will surely help clear the fog in front of some forum users eyes too. For good.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

You wouldnt want skewed views on things, now, would you?

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

I compare the RHETORIC used to the rhetoric used during the CU/NGE. Mostly because several people I personally know commented on the similarities and expressed feelings of unease. We all went through the CU/NGE and the resulting exodus, so yeah, we do know what we are speaking about.

And that rhetoric is depressingly the same. The whole ‘making it less complicated’ and ‘focusing on reward’. Even the focus groups who are all ecstatic about the changes were there for the CU/NGE too… as were the people defending the developers and calling objectors shortsighted etc. etc. As we both know, in the case of SWG the changes turned out to be disastrous.

I am quite well aware of the fact that the changes to GW2 are far far far less extensive. But they do seem to be in a similar trend: making the game ‘easier’, and prioritizing on new players over veteran players.

And of course new player retention is important, it is in every game. The big problem here, however, is that the ‘new player experience’ is also implemented for players who have 80s on their accounts, and who can be assumed to already KNOW all the things the developers want to gradually teach new players, and who for the most part liked the leveling as it was. For many if not most of these veterans, the changes feel like something is taken away from them. And that is one of the biggest sins in game development, and something that is likely to drive away veterans.

The golden rule is to NEVER EVER take things away from the existing player base. Add things, buff things, give new players some new toys, add optional tutorials, all fine.
But if you are a veteran leveling an alt, suddenly not being able to fight underwater, having to run back to a zone already explored to get SP, not seeing gathering nodes, unlocking abilities that are considered fun and necessary at a WAY later level… that does feel like taking things away.

Dude, impact to “vets” is so insignificant that we have to make new saying – making a mountain out of neutrino.

And connection to NGE is so far away even Hubble woldnt pick it up

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

EvE works awesome without levels.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

Star Wars Galaxies had no levels, just skills, up till Spring 2005. And it thrived during that time, with over 200,000 subscribers (which was considered a truly huge number till WoW came along).

I know, but id like to leave out SWG out, you see, people who have no clue started to mention NGE.

SWG had its set of problems, but pre CU/NGE it was somewhat unique (great ideas, bad implementation, still people loved it because of good ideas)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

EvE works awesome without levels.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

dpcnh.3798:

I don’t get it. I level alts in the game, it’s basically all I do. All of this fuss over the these changes? You can basically do everything you could before except for missing a couple of skills early on. To me the time saved in not having to level individual weapons skills any more, coupled with how fast the first 10 levels go now, is a plus, not a negative. So I’m missing a couple of utilities for a bit. Oh my, the world is ending! Really?

Yeah, few response even went far as “from 30 on game is balanced around having elite skill”

In effect its all so insignificant, that even insignificance laughs at it lol

Tachenon.5270:

MikaHR.1978:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Voice of the forums? Heh.

Are you enjoying the GW2 that metrics have wrought? Do you love ascended gear? Are you mad (with joy) about the Living Story? Does the revamp of the trait system excite you to such a degree that you no longer need coffee, and in fact must resort to some sort of sleep aid when you wish to sleep? Does NPE thrill you beyond measure?

If so, well, rejoice, I guess. You are the Chosen Ones. The Holy Metrics have spoken!

And thats where youre wrong:

Ascended
Traits
Leveling change (NPE)

was done on direct FEEDBACK (read whines) from players.

Enjoy.

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Broom.2561:

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

ANYONE who compares this to NGE is pretty much nuts and pretty much doesnt have a slightest clue what CU/NGE did to SWG.

IF they introduce trinity (for example) you might start going there, but small changes to introductory levels – rofl

Well, if you’d actually READ my post, you’d have seen that I actually say that the changes in GW2 aren’t even close to those of the CU/NGE. But the developer rhetoric pretty much is, as is the fact they are prioritizing new players over existing ones.

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

Broom.2561:

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

ANYONE who compares this to NGE is pretty much nuts and pretty much doesnt have a slightest clue what CU/NGE did to SWG.

IF they introduce trinity (for example) you might start going there, but small changes to introductory levels – rofl

Taterz.1706:

Asof tomorrow, my input to GW2 will be minimal Archeage is being released and those devs listen to the player base, Perhaps ANET should take a look at their forum and see how customer relations work.

Such a shame seeing as this was the best MMO i’ve played.

Yeah, im sure everyone just love P2W.

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

Sokia.3710:

Broom.2561:

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

You can blame that one the April patch (as well as the new NPE patch) for having to make lower level monsters weaker to match making low level characters weaker by removing their traits and skills. The result is that a level 80 can basically 1-shot everything wearing Cleric’s gear.

I could one shot stuff 1.5 years ago.

Why are you so uninformed? This is NOT new thing.

Broom.2561:

zenleto.6179:

Broom.2561:

cesmode.4257:

Colin.. No one asked for the leveling and new player experience to be changed. I can’t remember anyone complaining that it is bad. Like a broken record here, “if it aint broke don’t fix it”. You could have invested those resources on other things, like dungeons?? Or making open world PVE / DE more enjoyable and rewarding?

I seriousl’y don’t understand your decision making here. It makes no sense and is a clear example of the disconnect that you have with the playerbase. Again, no one asked for this and no one complained about it.

Personally, I’ve always said that the new player experience and leveling experience is second to none in Guild Wars 2. It is the best part of the game, because lets face it…GW2 is not known for it’s awesome level cap experience.

You need to admit that you did a wrong here… we didnt want this. Its confusing and makes no sense.

Heck, how about making it so newbies aren’t automatically refused for dungeons or world boss events their own level in favor of 80s, because newbies just don’t have the skills / DPS. Or make it so that level 80s with full world completion aren’t able to run through a lowbie zone oneshotting all the mobs while you as a lowbie can’t even get a hit in to get event credit? Those are the things I would consider discouraging as a new player (and even on a veteran player playing a low level alt).

These are player based issues. People are pricks. In the lower maps people are more than capable of adjusting their play to suit the area but they don’t. I’ve caught myself doing this, and I’m only on top of it because a year ago a guy I was doing the booze escort with in Wayfarer let me know he was waiting for me to get the first hit on things. It really got me thinking.

Its up to players, not the nanny.

Actually, this IS a design flaw, not a player flaw. Every developer knows there are people out there who enjoy spoiling other players’ fun. The trick is making it kitten the spoilers. And the downscaling system GW2 employs makes it easy. A max level does SO much more damage than a low level player in a low level zone, it’s not even remotely funny. And yes, I have actually tested this with 80 and low level of the same class in the same zone. It’s just plain ridiculous. A level 80 ranger can run into a cave full of lvl 3 Sons of Jormag, kill 10+ of them in seconds and hardly take any damage. A level 3 ranger will pretty certainly die in seconds before they’re even in the cave.

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

Yup, been mentioning that dowscaling should be much more….downscaled….for long now. Really. There should be at least a chance of lvl80 dying in lower areas (accompanied with removing any loot restrictions still in place)

Same goes for upscaling. It should be much more….upscaled ;P

phys.7689:

Star Ace.5207:

Compared to many other more game affecting changes, these are among the most inappropriate overreactions I have ever witnessed in the game so far. Ascended gear, trait changes, the megaserver, karma changes, wardrobe, etc. are all way more “game changing”, yet people have focused in these (to me) genuinely little shifts that ultimately aren’t very relevant in the grand scheme of things (unless you want to add your own “I don’t like the direction this game is going” take, as is usual with this type of rhetoric.)

Even the initial fiery light armor human T3 complaints had more substance than this.

I am firmly convinced it’s mass hysteria ("my friends hate it, random youtube videos hate it, this “important player” hates it, so I must as well.") I can’t see well-informed people hating the game just because of this patch-maybe they didn’t like the game as much anyway, and used the changes to justify their “this is the final straw” moment. This patch is really of no long-term consequence, and actually brought some other good changes that are being conveniently ignored, because you know ANet must be evil, “money-hungry/too commercial”, uncaring about players (usually meaning “my needs/preferences”), etc.

We are lucky they have responded a bit the last few days. If it was me I would ignore this stuff more than they do-and I am a VERY caring person, but won’t stand for irrational, sarcastic, cynical, and/or troll-ish comments, mostly made in bad faith, with self-serving agendas, and/or in a fit of bad temper (calling some of these posts “childish” is rather offensive to children.) And even the times they dare to respond, they’ll get attacked and words will get twisted by a few among the forum crowd.

The "I appear like a hater because I “love” the game and want ANet to notice" is not holding water anymore-if it ever did. Go play the games you like but stop spreading the hate-it’s a darned game when it’s all said and done, with some players loving what you precisely may despise. Leave-if that’s what you want and the game is “unplayable/not fun anymore” for you-and let others play it in peace.

It’s always OK to hate the patch or GW2, just don’t be a jerk about it and spread misinformation/your hate to other players. We don’t have to like the same things.

I feel bad about them because the only time the did go “astray” on the manifesto was with Ascended gear, and they did make an explanation on why it was a necessary shift, like it or not (and that grind to this day remains wholly optional, for those players who care, and not needed to enjoy gear gated content.) All other changes have actually never gone against their all-too-frequently quoted manifesto, unless you are really stretching its meaning to mean the game must be the way you would like it to be.

i think this change is actually so hated in combination with the last patch. its not just one thing, its the build up.

its like people were already vexed, then this was the straw that made em go oh wtf.

My thoughts also. 9/9 patch really isnt that big a deal really.

laokoko.7403:

Quite honestly if they just unlock utility earlier, most people might even like it.

We’ll level faster 1-15. And we get to unlock utility at the same time.

the last vote with only 2 option have 83% people like it and 17% don’t. I think most people fit the I don’t like it, but it don’t bother me too much, so if they make slight adjustment…

I’m only bothered because the utility is pushed back… The trait thing bothered me already before.

Im not that bothered by utility pushback, it could be a little lower. The rest is so insignificant, it tends to 0.

Much bigger issue (for newplayers and alts alike) are traits as you surely can end up with half/quarter even-baked character when you ding 80 and grind a lot just to get basic functionality of the class.

nethykins.7986:

Vayne.8563:

Most companies don’t talk about testing. Why would they? Why should they?

I’m pretty sure they were having problems keeping people after free weekends, which is why they haven’t had many. It’s a lot of work for relatively little return. Logic would say that those weekends aren’t people who are complaining about Arah being bugged. They were complaining about the leveling experience. They didn’t buy the game.

Sure they don’t talk about them, but when big changes are made that feel like it’s a step backwards, people question the QA process/how they got to where they’re at etc. It’s a common thing with games more than anything. I know I’ve seen it in and out of the games industry+with friends in the industry.

On Free weekends: I’m not too sure it’s this reasoning because I’d say that’s down to it just being select free weekends. That may not be enough time for people to really get into it, especially if you’re a casual player. I can imagine their numbers having a stronger foundation on this aspect if they had a free trial up to level 15 or something.

Anet probably tested it on US audiences, because if it’s been going on a year, the China game wasn’t far enough along to test it. My guess is the China stuff was implemented the way it was because of the testing too…and since the Chinese players who are already playing say they don’t like it, I sort of doubt it was made with China in mind.

Makes sense. I just wonder whether it’s all just based off metrics alone, because it’s difficult to see the “You’re learning more and having more fun” aspect in it’s current iteration, from a personal standpoint. I mean yeah, it’s fantastic there’s a speedier leveling curve (I honestly have not felt this but everyone keeps saying it so I guess I should assume so), and that dodge training is good, but everything else just feels like you’re getting ready to unlock something instead of just enjoying the game.

Also, curious to know how they tested that this makes players more eager to come back when it hadn’t gone live.

Colin says more people played longer with this system than the others. He says they’ll watch it and if it’s not the case they’ll change it.

Fair enough…though, I’m super skeptical about this because…well…Anet says stuff, but that doesn’t always mean they have to follow through.

What exactly do you think makes them do (or do not) stuff.

Sokia.3710:

Erukk.1408:

Both Anet and the players have to learn to deal with these changes.

Or they could become former players.

I remeber lots of names posting (now) a year ago they are leving GW2 forever and how they gloriously “uninstalled the game to make more space on HD”

If i return in a year im sure it will not be much different

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

“Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn’t comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it’s not a new thing, it’s a long standing historical fact).

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums."

I think we can identify few suchgroups here.

And how long have raiders (“hardcores”/“vets”/“pros”) been harping in every single game and every single forum how important they were and how numerous and how awesome and exalted (hell just look at Wildstar, and its 3 months old game)

So yeah, forum posters, lodmouths on forums dont really amount to much, if any

*And yeah, Turbine gave raiders kick in the kitten , there comes a time when certain groups become much more a burden than they are worth it (raiders were usuall very insulting (delusions of grandeur, self-importance, arrogance and know-it-all, and of course obligatory “if we leave game will crash and burn”) And all that in spite of Turbine pushing raiding hard, up to that point. And, just FYI, LOTRO is doing abit better since they did that.

1. You can do that in pretty much any single map (but its faster on different maps)

2. It was up just the other day, so it still pops out. Just not often

Hamfast.8719:

Perhaps only displayed when actually in WvW? Context and all that, y’know. Feels like an unsolicited sales call during dinner.

They advertise “events” like this from the start to the game.

In which way is this any different?

Etien.4601:

AngelDiscarnate.5489:

For every person here whining and complaining about all the changes and how they feel this update blows donkey honkers, there are 10 satisfied players in the game playing.
;D
Just sayin’…
Not toast.

When you finish your first character and then perhaps your second; if you stick around long enough to try and make 3rd or 4th and so on..After you become veteran player, come back here and tell me how you feel abouit this change.
I bet 100% you’ll be singing a different song.

I have 11 80-ties and 5 more ranging from 20 (of today) to 40.

9/9 changes are peanuts, so insignifcant for a real vet.

Traits OTOH need good shaking.

pdavis.8031:

Rares can be gained for level 1. They are soulbound, and cannot be sold on the TP. So those you purchased the heroic edition should be able to recieve and wear the heroic armor from the very beginning.

Yeah, but those are unobtainable to those who dont have heroic version so if you dont have it you cant test it out yourself in any way (premise is that “vets” and “pros” know their stuff they researched and tested it out themselves because they claim they are so pro at the game)

Truth is – most of them could actually benefit from those tooltips and tutorials.

Its easy to yell “im pro”. Completely different thing is testing of that

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Drow.2081:

This is a lag issue. Because there are only a few auction houses left in the game. It’s a graphic issue. I could play perfect before and now since update I can’t move around an auction house at all. There are to many people in the starter city needing to use the auction house. We need our auction house tab back.

Go to EOTM for that, problem solved (well for you, if there really is a problem with the game they need to fix it, but i didnt have any lags in LA or Rata Sum)

Yeah, everyone else should just wait until youre done with /whatever yor doing and ping ANet green light.

FYI other games would took 5+ hours to do that, and often in prime time for some regions.

Stormcrow.7513:

The game itself before the patch was “dumbed down”.
Stack and smack and zerging are still the order of the day.
Wait for the November patch? For what!!!! 30 min of content followed by the same meta events and dungeons!
Personally I think that the game needs :
1. Better AI. No more stack and smack.
2. An expansion…..give me something to friggen do!!! Does Anet realize what the definition of theme park gaming is???
3. A challenge. How about some high risk/high reward content.
4. Less gemstore focus overall. I understand you want to make money but the gemstore feels like Herb Tarlek trying to sell me something.

Those are just off the top of my head. I guess I will check back in 3 friggen months to see if there is a viable reason to login.

1. Yeah. But its a waste of time. Majority doesnt wan it
2. So you can do it in few hours and whine again?
3. Waste of development, mojority doesnt want it
4. Im sorry, wheres this gem store focus? Go play SWTOR (among others), THEN you will see what cash shop focus really looks like

And lastly, GW2 was somewhat made to do just that, dropin and out without being left behind on gameplay level. Opposed to other MMOs out there (which is somewhat moot point atm as they have so slow content delivery you can miss out a year and not be behind lol)

There was a time when it was challenging? Really?

Every MMO was dumbed down considrably. And it was “dumbed down” for first few levels. Bif fricking deal lol. WS tried it the hard way and is tanking 2 months after launch. You migth wanna thimk about that for a while.

You either deal with it or….not.

Sogradde.8016:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not just about being overwhelmed. It’s about pacing. It’s about being rewarded. People like to be rewarded. To older players it’s like something’s been taken away. To newer players, they don’t know what it was like before.

Anet’s tested it and they say the tests show this keeps people playing longer. I’m willing to see if it’s true.

I’m not. ANet has shown in the past that they like to take the laziest route possible. And I’m pretty sure, all they did was listen to their flawed metrics and decided to dumb everything down. Which comes handy by the way because it drags out the levelling experience and new players take a little longer to reach the state of #NoEndgame.

Also, where’s the reward for veteran players? Spoon collection?

Look, I know you’re not stupid and I see where you are coming from with your arguments but you cannot seriously look someone straight in the face and say you’re happy with the direction it is taking.

I mean, seriously, do you even play the game? I assume you do, so what do you do when you log in? Play the same dungeons you’ve been playing for almost 2 years? Or the same PvP Mode&Maps or the same WvW mode&maps? Or do you take your time to carefully examine the 20 minutes long Living Story content?
Listen to your heart buddy, this game is way past it’s former glory and it’s not getting better.

Actually my expereince playing the game for past 2 years is completely aligned with what they did.

I dont have to like it, but i do support it, sorry.

Oh, and BTW, i do whatever i feel like doing (and still get something out of it) instead being forced to latest raid once a week for 6+ months like every other game. Is GW2 perfect? Far from it. Is it absolutely best on the market for it? Yes And ive been playing MMOs since 2002.

Draknar.5748:

MikaHR.1978:

Actually 30 and onwards.

But you see, vets lerning new stuff….2 years from launch.

Just more proof it was warranted.

I’m pretty confident Rare armor doesn’t start until level 35. I based my whole alt gearing process on this fact. If there is level 30 Rare armor available on the TP I will eat my hat.

When you get <35 piece you can test it

Its not about items, its question of WHEN you can equip them.

mesmer seems like best fit (after thief that is)

Galespark.7835:

MikaHR.1978:

Galespark.7835:

MikaHR.1978:

Rares at that level are actually very low effect and non-integral part (and in vast majority of cases unobtainable)

They assumed “vets” already knew about rares. Seems they assumed too much

However, it is you who are assuming. No one on this thread is amazed that there are rares before level 39, they were just wondering if the lv39 was an unlock or just an information message. If you absolutely have to be condescending to people, at least try to do it in a relevant way.

Why, all “vets” and “pros” know this stuff anyway and dont need to deal with this “infantile stuff”

amiright?

If that was not just a copy paste of some “irrelevant troll comments” list you have opened up next to you GW2 forums window, I interpret this as if you seem to believe these players did not know they could use rares before level 39 before the patch. However, this person knows he could use them before the update (he had them equipped, see a later post of his). He just didn’t know if he still could after the new update. This has nothing to do with being veteran, since Arenanet changed a lot of things to be locked behind level gates that were not before (or are now locked till a higher level) and yet failed to give a comprehensive list of what should be locked till what level.

Really curious as to what kind of odd reply this post is going to get now.

Thats becasue nothing of this sort is locked. Heureka. Only skills got moved ot higher level due to different leveling curve.

And thats VERY easy to find out. Im amazed all these “vets” and “pros” couldnt figure that one out without dev handholding (well even with dev hand holding we STILL get threads like these).

Its funny because all of this was in blog posts released BEFORE it went live.

You still think these “vets” and “pros” dont need hand holding? Becasue with every thread and every post like this they actually prove ANet right.

rapthorne.7345:

Offair.2563:

Press B – Join your “home” wvw map – Do 5 steps to the left from that waypoint = Trade Post – Log out to character screen and back and you are on the same location as before you joined the home wvw map to use the trade post.

You also can’t interact with TP NPC’s until 17

Yes you can.

You were mentioning something about underdeveloped brains, ah yes here it is:

rapthorne.7345:

1-15 zones for being too complex for our underdeveloped brains

Ashen.2907:

MikaHR.1978:

Actualy you unlock weapon skills much faster than before, so did you inform him it was much worse before and that you had to grind every single weapon skill 1 by 1 which would often take above lvl 15(which now equals to much higher level)

And no, you unlock downed state at lvl5 and underwater at lvl1 (with weapon and skill2 on lvl8)

To be fair I dont think Ive see it take longer than level 6 or 7 to unlock all weapons on a character.

Really? I just leveled 2 characters to 15-ish since i got some new char slots on 2nd anniversary sale

By level 7 i was done with barely half of weapons.

And yeah, i didint grind monsters just because of weapons skills, that would make it all that much worse. Not to mention juggling all the weapons around. AND that you actually had to have every lowbie weapon to unlock them.

Galespark.7835:

MikaHR.1978:

Rares at that level are actually very low effect and non-integral part (and in vast majority of cases unobtainable)

They assumed “vets” already knew about rares. Seems they assumed too much

However, it is you who are assuming. No one on this thread is amazed that there are rares before level 39, they were just wondering if the lv39 was an unlock or just an information message. If you absolutely have to be condescending to people, at least try to do it in a relevant way.

Why, all “vets” and “pros” know this stuff anyway and dont need to deal with this “infantile stuff”

amiright?

Shalloe.4867:

Kamui.4038:

Trading posts were hurting too many people’s feelings and were just too complicated to figure out. The word “trading” doesn’t tell you anything at all about the NPC’s function so ANet graciously removed this headache from a town that apparently makes its business by not existing.

oh no they are removing them from towns as well now?

Yeah, BLTC is going bankrupt! (you heard it here first!)

urfrid.5971:

A friend of my started playing for the first time he found it easy but boring. I like that the new level system teaches you what to do point leads you to hearts. But remove the level gates and the reason my friend found it boring. Because he couldn’t use all his skills was only 1,2,3 for couple spamming. And with underwater and down skills locked till around lvl 13.

Actualy you unlock weapon skills much faster than before, so did you inform him it was much worse before and that you had to grind every single weapon skill 1 by 1 which would often take above lvl 15(which now equals to much higher level)

Seems he would be bored out of his skull in the old system.

And no, you unlock downed state at lvl5 and underwater at lvl1 (with weapon and skill2 on lvl8)

misterman.1530:

MikaHR.1978:

You can always do what you did before- go out of the game and look it up.

I thought all pros already knew that when starting new character as noone needs any info on anything, and for this masterrace tooltip is mere overdoing it.

Actually its amusing, you whine because of how old stuff worked without even realizing it

Wait. So a new player should use Google to figure things out? Who’s whining? I am merely pointing out what I believe is a mistake.

“Lock it. Fine. Evidence #23 that this game has been dumbed down beyond all belief.”

I wonder what 1-22 and 24-infinite look like

Since you assume all of that is necessary, these tooltip is non – issue also.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut…

And it would actually be nice to have more info (the one in home instance nicely informed you need lvl10 for it before this feature pack)

Danikat.8537:

There are a lot of things which are explained in the level up pop-ups which aren’t locked, they’re just mentioned to make sure you’re aware of them if you haven’t already found out.

For example I created a new character this morning and one of the first things I did was use the golem banker to withdraw 2 bags from my bank and equipped them. Then I got a notification at level 3 about bags and how to equip them. I haven’t gotten one about the bank yet but I know it does happen.

It’s the same with things like asura gates, WvW, dodging and vistas and POIs. You can use them right from the start, just like you always could, but genuinely new players might not know about them until they’re told.

Some of the levels where things are introduced do seem a bit odd. In this case level 35 would be a more sensible point to introduce rare equipment since that’s the first level you can equip it. But I assume the actual unlocks took priority and extra tips were inserted wherever there was a gap.

Rares at that level are actually very low effect and non-integral part (and in vast majority of cases unobtainable)

They assumed “vets” already knew about rares. Seems they assumed too much