Guild Wars 2

Avarice.2791:

Oh sorry? Should I mention how HFC has and will be the top-tier raid for well over a year until Legion drops…? Go rationalize paying over $200 dollars for that. Happy with the garrison missions? All that “WoD content?” They can obviously afford a larger Dev team but that game has dropped well below 5 million subscribers. You’re taking what I’m saying out of context though. What do you expect from a $60 game? Go compare WoD in its first five months to this. At least you’re not being overcharged…

and we’ll be stuck with this raid, once it’s fully released, until the next expansion pack, so what’s your point?
And I didn’t take anything out of context. If you want to state that GW2 provides more content than WoW, then prove it.
Money wise, sure you spend less, but no need for lying to make GW2 look better.

Avarice.2791:

This game delivers more content than WoW without the $15 a month

this made me laugh. When was the last time WoW delivered an expansion with a single (not finished) raid, that only has a single difficulty and no dungeons, not to mention only 4 maps?

Vayne.8563:

Grinding is definitely defined by doing the same content over and over, not the same FOUR ZONES over and over. That’s ridiculous. You can level masteries in any of the four zones in hot. YOu can level them by grinding mobs, which some people did, by dynamic events, by adventures, by raiding.

So yeah, not a grind by your definition.

I get it. You don’t like the game so it’s not worth it to you. There are easily a couple of dozen posters who REALLY don’t like the game and post everywhere.

But you know,. if the game has half a million people playing it,. that’s not such a big percentage. It is, however a very LOUD percentage.

Also, there are different depths of dislike. To you HoT is the end of the world. However, you’ve already ragequit the game twice before HoT if I recall correctly.

Now you’re saying HoT is the evil bad thing but before you said other things were the evil bad thing.

It’s entirely possible you just don’t like the game.

okay, you just entered HoT. Tell me how are you able to a) leave the first map b) level masteries by raiding? You’re stuck there either doing dynamic events or grinding mobs for the most part.
HoT is not an evil bad thing. It’s just that it’s not perfect and we can all see that. And HoT being as it is, a lot of people are disappointed. And they have the right to be here and be upset. They have the right to be vocal if they so wish to.

Vayne.8563:

And people in my guild came back, which is my point. But saying HoT is a really bad purchase is just a matter of opinion too. HoT is a really bad purchase to you. The fact is, however, that HoT didn’t sell that well and no one who didn’t buy it can say if it’s a really good purchase or not, simply because they didn’t buy it. This is my issue.

Yet the OP has obviously bought it?

Vayne.8563:

The game gets some really bad publicity up front and scares off a number of people from buying HoT.

there are various reasons people might not want to purchase HoT. One of such reasons could indeed be bad publicity, but bad publicity does not come out of nowhere. Bad opinions are still legitimate opinions. HoT did not release up to standard of everyone and people are free to express this.

Furthermore that is not a sole reason for why HoT did not sell. One of the reasons could be for example that refunding HoT would close your account entirely, instead of just forbidding you from going into new areas/ using your newly acquired masteries, like some MMOs would do. Meaning HoT is much more of a gamble and people are much more dependent on the outside opinion.

Vayne.8563:

People use the word grind over and over and over, even though the mastery points themselves, certainly the ones you must have, just isn’t that grindy.

Grinding is defined as repeating the same action over and over and over again. HoT masteries being limited to only getting increased by HoT activities, cause just that. Besides for those 15 minutes that adventures would be open, main source of your Exp will be either dynamic events or enemy killing, which causes said grind. Dynamic event systems are actually not too uncommon in other MMOs as well, meaning on average in a traditional MMO I could gain Exp trough instances (most often dungeons), killing enemies repeatedly, dynamic events (Rifts, Fates, whatever other MMOs wish to call it) and questing. Sometimes there’s even more options that gain you exp (for example in GW2 vanilla such things as gathering herbs, or crafting, or PvPing (tomes!) also did the trick), however expansion pack severely limited that when it came to new HoT exclusive masteries. Hence the word “grinding” gets used often.

Vayne.8563:

I have almost 300 people in my guild now, but 200 of them were there before HoT launched and everyone bought it, or at least, I’m aware of no one who didn’t buy it. I haven’t met one person in the guild who things HoT wasn’t worth it, though I have met a couple of people who have experienced some frustration.

that’s a nice personal experience. Similarly enough HoT killed a lot of guilds. Unlike a normal expansion HoT made sure that normal old content got something extra added to it specifically for those that have HoT (fractals are not worth it now, unless you have HoT and the mastery). It also caused a lot of problems in PvP as those with HoT PvP against those without.
If this was a more traditional MMO (for example World of Warcraft), there would be nothing stopping you from NOT buying the expansion if it doesn’t interest you, as you could continue doing what you loved doing before (heck in WoWs PvP twinking even used to be a huge thing). GW2 is more of a HoT or bust. Meaning those who didn’t like the theme of the current expansion simply left.
Similarly HoT provided a very narrow amount of content in comparrison to the amount of content that was enjoyed by people before. Meaning that a lot of people whose area of liking did not get updated (and there were many), simply chose to either refund and loose their account, or leave.

It’s great that HoT was a successful expansion to you, however concerning those that it wasn’t, they have the right to express their concerns.

Vayne.8563:

Imagine if all 12 legendaries had come out at the same time what the price of mats would have been. The complaints would have been legendary. It’s better for the game, in my opinion, that they werent’ released all at once. We know Living Story Season 3 is coming too. We know more raids are coming.

You mean the raid that was supposed to be finished is still under development?

HoT as it is released very bare. Unexcusably bare. You might say “oh it will be worth it in the future!”, but the bottom line is, for a lot it’s not worth it right now. And when it will become worth it, parts of it will be behind a paywall again (Living Story Season 3 for example, how much do you want to bet that it will become payed?), further pushing away possible customers. As choices are, buy now on wishful thinking, or perhaps have your wishful thinking validated later, only to realize that it will be too expensive to get into.

Also an MMO that I’m playing, releases all the legendaries and all the updates to legendaries at the same time. They cope with the marketboard pricings by also introducing new crafting materials, tied specifically to new legendaries. Having in mind that ascended materials are a thing, Anet perfectly could have done that.

Similarly postponing them might have done more harm than good. As imagine, you’re not an altoholic. You have a specific class, or a specific set of classes that you like that use specific weapons. You buy the expansion only to realize that there are no real new shinies for you to work towards. Are you really going to stick around waiting, if working on said items was your intention?

Vayne.8563:

My guess is, even if HoT isn’t worth it now by the time the next expansion comes out it will be.

by which point it will be free. So once again people being disappointed about what they got for their money have a right to be disappointed.

Vayne.8563:

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Right, it’s not worth it anymore so … the value they got from 11K for a hundred bucks just disappears? Gotcha.

no, that just means that the original GW2 was a good purchase. If they couldn’t even get a couple tens of hours out of HoT though, HoT was a really BAD purchase.

I got a couple of hundred hours out of HoT. It wasn’t a bad purchase for me. I run Fractals now and didn’t enjoy them as much before HoT. That’s another plus. I love some of the elite specs, that’s another plus, because I can use them anyway. I like the breakbar changes too. That affects the whole game. I don’t like action cam but I’m sure some people do. I enjoy gliding in core Tyria now, btw. I even like the Revenant which I can play anywhere. And yes, I enjoyed the Hot story as well on more than one character.

your opinion is completely valid Vayne, but so is OPs. Ncsoft’s financial report in regards to Anet is obviously quite good, they nearly doubled their normal quarter income, however as who found the expansion appealing, the game and the forums obviously show a split. While it’s valid that you enjoy it, nobody in my guild did, we all left. And it’s also valid for us, and for people like OP to express their lack of pleasure in HoT.

Obtena.7952:

Right, it’s not worth it anymore so … the value they got from 11K for a hundred bucks just disappears? Gotcha.

no, that just means that the original GW2 was a good purchase. If they couldn’t even get a couple tens of hours out of HoT though, HoT was a really BAD purchase.

Ashen.2907:

When you say, “Anet is so desperate to salvage it,” did you mean, “NCSoft is so desperate to salvage it,” in reference to Wildstar? I ask because Anet has essentially nothing to do with Carbine.

yup, wrong word used. It’s 4 AM and I should be asleep, sorry

Raziel.4216:

no publisher is dumb enough to re-invest money on a failed product. There’re plenty of games available to invest on, no need to sink your money on the ones that fail.

which is where my example comes in. WILDSTAR. No matter than it was failing from month 3, for 2 years now, Ncsoft KEEP ON INVESTING. They do sink money, because projects take a long time to make and cost a lot when they fail, meaning it’s in their best interest to salvage.

Raziel.4216:

But you’ve made your mind, nothing can prove that HoT did well enough for’em. Cute

2015 Q4 report, then 2016Q1 will show at least an estimation of a) how many bought the expansion b) what is the player retention in Q1.

Currently nobody can prove that it did good or bad. There’s only user experience to judge from.

Raziel.4216:

LOL what? nice backpadeling there, but it’s a bit too late you’re comparing this exp. to a game that completely flopped.
Still waiting on that source, should I give you more options?

I never said it was a success, I said it was good enough for their standards and didn’t flop.

Wildstar flopped. Or are you arguing against that?
The next part of the comment was started with “EVEN IF”, as in “do you not think that Ncsoft would try and salvage GW2 if it started going downhill?”, supported by “Wildstar totally flopped and is LOSING MONEY, but they’re keeping it alive”. There’s literally no backpedal there.

Original statement from me was that another expansion would be made regardless this one is a success or a flop.

Raziel.4216:

So desperate to salvage their flop? Source?
Let me guess, is it a forum that represents less than 10% of the playerbase?
Or is it your guildmates?
Everyone you know?
Everyone you and your guildmates know?

I probably got one of those right.

my argument wasn’t that it necessarily flopped, my argument was that making next expansion /= financial success on the first one.

Raziel.4216:

In what world? If GW2’s expansion flops a publisher would require some changes before throwing their money at a product that just lost money, ncsoft wouldn’t back off and let’em retain so much freedom.
Again, what happens when a game fails? look at Carbine.
Instead we have Anet hiring people and working on another release without a lot of intervention from the publisher, what does that tell us? the numbers are good enough.
Good enough =/= failed expansion.

yes. Changes in the next expansion. Anet is a powerhouse. You seem to be under the illusion that somehow its tiny and haven’t made massive amounts of profit. Think of it this way – around living story season 1 they started hiring to a point that now they’ve kept 300+ employees for 2+ years. Do you really think that they would have NO money to recover from a flop?

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

laokoko.7403:

Remember the forum a few month ago? The forum pretty much was spam with posts asking for new content.

new content /= expansion.

Living World Story season 1 got complaints for not being permanent and not introducing much content that stays.

Living World Story season 2 was received better because it added two zones and was actually permanent.

Screams for expansion were there because we were running dry for 8 months. If we weren’t running dry for 8 months, everything could have continued being just fine.

That being said, the story speed was too slow if we actually wanted to slay ALL the dragons in MMOs lifetime. We were on the first one for 3 years. Having in mind that there’s what? 6 of them? The MMO wasn’t likely to last two decades.

So if they just sped the story up, kept it as B2P (buy once play forever, wasn’t that the slogan?), it would have been completely fine.

Raziel.4216:

Blizzard has many succesful products that could make up for lost investment, Anet doesn’t and no publisher is interested in digging their own grave.

This doesn’t happen

having in mind that GW2 was one of the most popular recent MMOs, any publisher would be 100% interested in salvaging it. Heck even games that are in the grave, always try to dig themselves out (look at Wildstar), it’s pretty much losing money, but NcSoft is being very lenient on it and giving it as much chances as possible, simply because of the massive 10 year investment.

If an expansion pack didn’t work, the cheapest approach is actually to IMMEDIATELY start working on the next one and make sure that it doesn’t resemble the previous one at all.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

When the betas came out the response to the harder mobs was overwhelmingly positive. Me and a couple others argued that they were too hard for general players but everyone else loved them.

Mob difficulty feedback

it doesn’t help that the betas ran with masteries unlocked, which is why the difficulty is so high to begin with and why masteries are necessary in Spvp. They’re simply much better than most base classes. :/

maddoctor.2738:

Do you really want Guild Wars 2 to become a game about instances, both easy and hard, and make the open world a barren wasteland that players visit for leveling and not for anything else like in so many other MMORPGs? Or you want the game to stay as it is, focused primarily in the open world that everyone can enjoy without forced grouping?

YES, I DO want my instances because that is what I ENJOYED IN GW2 VANILLA. YES, I want my open world to be casual, because that’s WHAT I ENJOYED IN MY GW2 VANILLA.

And it doesn’t make a world a barren wasteland. Look at FFXIV where people get funnelled back into the open world to do hunts, to do their level 50 relics, to do their level 60 relics… Look at the old GW2 vanilla where people got funnelled back into the open world to do world bosses, achievements, collections.

That’s EXACTLY the problem. Not only is HoT unlike everything that’s popular on the market, but it’s also unlike GW2 vanilla. Meaning those of us that liked vanilla are no longer here.

Obtena.7952:

Right, just because my experiences span more than 10 years, they must be irrelevant. >< I get there is a drive for braindead easy OW PVE for newer markets … that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a demand that ANet can try to fill for not-braindead OW PVE as well.

the reason why I ask this question for comparrison to new successful games, is because pretty much no MMO that was made 10+ years ago is still holding in popularity and none of them would be popular if they released today because the market has changed. Look at Wildstar trying to revive the 2004 WoW formula. As a F2P it’s BARELY alive and unclear for how long.

Obtena.7952:

RIght … we don’t see hordes of people QQing about PVE being too easy on the forums, so it must not be a thing … Gotcha.

for OW PVE I didn’t see people QQing about it being too easy. That’s why if I’m wrong I’m asking you for examples.

Raziel.4216:

A rumor? a statement from one of the devs is not a rumor.
Call it plan, intent, etc. doesn’t change the fact that no company will greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.

unless they really need money. Then expansions do get greenlit one after another. Just look at WoW, whenever an expansion pack fails miserably and overall is regarded as not good, Blizzard announces that the next one is a mere year away, instead of fixing the mess that they’ve caused.
It wouldn’t surprise me, if instead of rebuilding HoT Anet is preparing another expansion in a year or so.

Obtena.7952:

Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.

examples that weren’t made 10 years ago or more?

WoW, FFXIV, Tera, BnS, pretty much ANY even remotely popular MMO has easy open world PVE. Because that’s where people level and solo quest.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t include hard PVE experiences into open world. Tera had BAMs for example. However you were able to just skip them entirely if you didn’t want that challenge.

What GW2 did was literally turn the health and damage up on EVERY mob in HoT. Meaning every HoT mob is half a BAM with 10X the health. Making them not fun. Because it’s literally every mob, HoT is just not a pleasant open world PVE experience for an MMO.

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

where was the non stop yelling about how open world PVE should be upped in general? As I’m very curious for examples. When people ask for difficulty they tend to mean instances like dungeons and raids. Challenging solo instances were very welcome during season 1 and 2 of living story. More challenging open world bosses received a more mixed response (look at how people viewed redone Tequatl). Very challenging open world as a whole tends to mostly get a negative response.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get your point at all. It’s easy, bite-sized content. Agreed, and that only goes to the point I’m making how Core is just a pathetically easy content, packaged in a nice looking visual … which is REALLY cool if you just like to walk around and look at stuff, like a museum.

which is how open world is always in MMOs? Accessible to all?
That being said, I already said that HoT is not hard, just tedius.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Subjective hindsight does not change reality. The majority preferred an expansion to more living story, and ANet saw that demand and reacted, despite their previous strategies which they accepted was not working.

As for price, the expansion price is in line with other expansions, and the expansion does not destroy older content. This is all noise though, what we are seeing here is endless ‘I don’t like HOT so therefore no one must like it’ which is evidently incorrect.

so dungeon loot nerfs, Spvp imbalance in regards to masteries, WvW imbalance in regards to masteries and changes made to small guilds, fractal loot nerfs and the requirement to have a HoT fractal mastery… That didn’t destroy any content, right?

echo.2053:

Unfortunately thats a preview of the future of mmos as the entitled generation who their entire life were told they’d be a famous player and given trophies when in reality they struck out every time up to bat and their team was virtually eliminated before playoffs even started.

Rng is a needed mechanic- it has the biggest impact on item value. Players see their chance to obtain an item and immeditely go into whine mode how rng is terrible all the while failing to comprend that rewards are univerisal and that at any point in the day thousands of players getting individualized loot.

And what was wrong with bite sized patches to keep the players busy? Both the by-weekly patches and monthly patches worked just fine. There also wasn’t enough RNG or grind for people to actually complain about it.

There’s also nothing wrong with non RNG loot as you can make it take a while. A dungeon set takes like 10 days to acquire. The collection reward for all the dungeon sets? You’ll be busy for a couple of months.

Laurels were a daily currency, meaning you used to be getting an ascended accessory once every month. How did that hurt the game exactly?

There’s no RNG in ascended crafting. How did that hurt the game exactly?

echo.2053:

Mmorpgs are meant to last years not be 30 days CoD’s. DJ que up " You can’t always get what you want" and spin that kitten!!!!

and before GW2 pulled this poop out it lasted me 3 years of nearly daily log ins. After hot, it didn’t last me more than a day.

Obtena.7952:

Hold on … so voracious alt players would be more likely to play multiple times through 15 maps of Core Tyria-like content than 4 maps of HoT-like content? If there is anything MORE stale than 4 maps of HoT-like content, it’s 15 maps of Core-like content. Of course, it depends on who’s behind the keyboard but quantity of maps is not relevant, unless of course the goal was to hide poor, easy content behind an expanse of shiny looking visuals akin to a MMO scenery museum… Oh, I sort of described what Core feels like right there.

except that old maps had content that new maps do not:

free exploration with nothing being gated,
hearts, skill points and vistas (loved all 3, never liked dynamic events),
content being in more of a bite sized chunk making it easier to consume it. If I logged in on my alt and decided to do Sylvari starting area, it would probably take me an hour. I can’t set myself the same goal in HoT, due to locks behind masteries and dynamic event timers,
Old maps are less tedious. Fighting the same enemy with no mistakes done for over a minute is not fun, nor challenging. It’s tedious. When a map is too tedious, nobody likes it. Similarly to how Orr was very unpopulated and hated until the undead population was culled,
More maps = more environment change. Even in the same biodome, two maps didn’t look identical. You kind of lose that sense of visual progression when you’re stuck on the same 20% of a map for days.

leviathan.2148:

If you really loathe something then you probably don’t even want to talk about it.

if it was something that you loved turned into something that you hate, then yes, you very much want to talk about it. It’s one thing to dislike a product and just walk past it, it’s another thing if you liked the product and it turned towards a direction that you loathe.

Freeelancer.2860:

Don’t PvP leagues provide just that? Or for that matter achieving maximum level of mastery that requires allot of gold medals from adventures?

I guess you could say that someone doesn’t play PvP, cannot adjust to new difficulty, finds most activities too bothersome etc. but is that really a problem with the game?

PvP leagues are accessible to all I believe, not to those with the expansion only. And the problem with masteries is that they slow down to a complete slog. So while yes, achieving a mastery must feel great, but when you have to spend months on it at a casual pace, you’re more likely to give up.
It’s also why ascendeds and legendaries feel like such a far off goals that you give up without even starting. With exotics you could run dungeons and tell yourself “there’s 1/3rd of a top that I’m holding in tickets!” and then it’s not so bad.
Because they’re gating the legendaries behind actual raids anyway, I suppose some good progression for casuals would be if they made a casual raid, or a dungeon, with a weekly lockout, that guaranteed that after a certain amount of tickets you’ll get your ascendeds. And it doesn’t matter how long it would take. You could say that you have to run this instance 4 times to get gloves and 6 times for the top for example. It doesn’t matter that it would take you well over half a year to deck out a single character in ascendeds. You could do some gameplay and tell yourself “I’m holding 1/4th of an ascended glove!”.
The main idea would be – less grind, more progression more often. The same way that for example if the skill progression was “kill this for this skill” instead of “amass this amount of points” it would feel better.

IndigoSundown.5419:

If you have no desire to play through the HoT content again, why do the HoT Masteries matter to you?

I really needed to respond to this. If OP is too casual to raid, too casual to get a legendary, what is left for the OP in this expansion pack to do?

There’s nothing wrong with horizontal or vertical progression. However people want meaningful progression. It means one where you can see fruits of your labour fairly often (for example gaining levels, or climbing the gear ladder in a traditional MMO), or one that is challenging but relatively fast to achieve if you know what you’re doing.

OP is likely not the challenging type. Those types have raids to tackle, even though I would argue, there isn’t enough reward for doing so. OP is likely wishing to see his fruits of labour quite often. Original leveling really provided this. You either gained a level, gained a skill point or entered a new zone. In this case for the longest time you’re grinding the same courner of the map.
But lets say you got trough the initial grind. Well if you’re not a hardcore type that can go raiding, what new content are you left with? Well the masteries of course! The very grindy and slow masteries that you can only achieve trough exp gained in HoT maps where you do the same events over and over again…

EDIT: one could argue that nothing has gone missing from GW2 vanilla and that OP could go back to do that. Yes do what the OP has been doing for 3 years now, except with far less reward this time around.

I know, the right answer is me!
In fact I’ve left the game. Which is a shame as I’ve been playing it since the beta. The expansion pack is the complete opposite of what I was expecting and wanted.

I’m a dungeon junkie. Before the expansion I’ve been well on my way to getting all the dungeon armour collections done. No new dungeons after so long really struck me hard. I know that there’s raids now, but dungeons were something where my friends and me could fool around, try whacky combos, not solve boss mechanics by just bursting and dodging… Raids are serious business. You’re organizing a larger group of people and you do have to bring a serious attitude. On top of that the nerf to dungeon rewards felt like getting slapped and told that I’m not welcome in the game anymore.

Fractal masteries is something that I hate. I climbed all the way to 49 before I left and been running fractals for quite a while. Now you’re not as welcome if you don’t have the expansion as you don’t have the mastery. I have a feeling that core game content should have been left alone.

My favorite thing about the old maps was everything! Hearts, skill points, vistas, how open to exploration they were! The new maps are nothing like that. I don’t do well with endless dynamic event grinding. I don’t like zones on timers either. And to make it worse parts of the map are either gated behind masteries, or behind events, meaning I am unable to explore what there is as it is.

I never thought that I would have said something like this a year ago, but I take it back. If horizontal progression means grind grind grind, instead of challenging fights like GW1 (remember when certain enemies dropped certain abilities and you needed to go there and get them, rather than running around the same event for an eternity and a half?), if this is what horizontal progression will look like, I’ll take that level increase. If you give me dungeons I’ll regrind the gear for all 10 alts of mine. If you take me the hearts, I’ll do a full world explore all over again if I have to. Just not this. Not this endless event maps on timers and raids. This is not what GW2 was and it makes me very sad to see it like this.

People say that gamers treat their old MMOs like their ex-girlfriends. And I agree. I feel way too attached so I’m still here stalking and hoping. Hoping that maybe there will be a glimse of new expansion that will be more like the core game was. But I have a feeling that that train has long passed and I got left behind.

OldGreg.6428:

If you purchased the expansion recently (last 30 days) it looks like they will refund it. If you pre purchased then you are out of luck it seems, see the below reply..

Thanks for contacting us.
We are able to refund an order only if it was purchased within the last 30 days. As this purchase for Guild Wars 2 was on 6/17/15, it is too old for us to complete your request.
If you have any questions please let us know.

The reason I wanted a refund is I play 99% WvWvW and I feel they have really butchered it.. so I’ve basically paid to ruin the only fun part of the game.

leave a review. Make sure that other customers don’t get tricked.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns/user-reviews

Malkavian.4516:

@MoonRaiden If a treasure is handed over to you without any effort done on your part, would it be considered treasure at all?

If not everyone can afford 2 hours a day worth of playtime, then why would they be playing games in the first place. While I do admit Anet does need to flesh out some issues the expansion has, I don’t think adjusting to someone’s schedule is the right way to do it.

so wait, if someone has a limited amount of time to partake in their hobby they shouldn’t partake at all?

There are plenty of MMO forums where people ask “if I only have 30 minutes a day to play, can I still get to end game and can I still p-participate in it?”. In today’s busy society you’re lucky if you have that much free time if you ask me.

tonyajc.2618:

How is this different from personal story requiring a certain level? Both are achieved through EXP gain. To me this feels natural, and they realized and removed the only high requirements mastery for story.

This is no different from Personal story, except the expansions story is WAY better.

you could level up in multiple different zones, doing many different things (even just crafting, or doing dailies, or doing world bosses, everything grants exp), however when it comes to HoTs masteries (at least those that matter for HoT story anyway), you’re locked into solely only doing very few events or killing mobs (HoTs zones only as well by the way) in order to grind masteries in order to see more of the story.

Genei.7502:

No, the irony is how many people complained that they had nothing left to improve on their characters after reaching level 80 and the lack of “end game” content. Now there is an expansion that is essentially only end game content with constant things to earn for your character and people complain about that.

you know what other games gate things behind? Story, quests.
It’s not the fact that players don’t want to improve their characters, it’s the fact of how you do it. No other MMO that wasn’t a Korean grinder ever told their players to grind the same few events over and over and over again, or kill mobs with exp pots to progress their characters.

Silicato.4603:

Remember that Gw2 has been bought for 5 million persons on those 3 years. Is that the current player base? No way, more like 1-2million of that 5 millions are the current player base.

So this anets move is not a punishment to the “current” player base, but a consequence of the punishment that those 4-3millions made to anet leaving the game and not playing.

The way that i see it, anet is doing the impossible to put people on its game. Cause the ones they had, left the game a long time ago. You cant punish someone is already gone. So there is no punishment to the “veteran” player base. there are very few veteran players actually playing, in comparison with people who has the game and could play.
The veterans (specially the ones in love with GW1 and in hate with GW2) punished anet leaving, and not viceversa.

people not playing are not on these forums and won’t be the ones complaining about expansion pricing. So all their doing is shooting themselves in the foot losing current customers over F2P ones.
I’ve been here since the beta, playing on and off, the months that I did play though I ended up paying 20-40£ on average. I think it’s safe to say that they could have at least offered me a 10$ discount instead of that character slot as then I would have been more likely to buy HoT.

Ayrilana.1396:

Most of the complaints back then focused on the lack of a character slot while still charging that price. Many did not want to may out another $10 so they could play the new class. You’d notice that the issue relatively died down after they added the character slot.

that should mean that the issue should come up again after the expansion’s released, because the free character slot was added as a prepurchase bonus only :I

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

Jackums.3496:

It’s amusing, though, watching this minority cling to the zerk meta for dear life.

I have never, in my life ran zerker and I didn’t have problems ever getting groups. Yet I’m one of those that is upset by the game forcing healers on us for raids. The lack of trinity is one reason why I played this game to begin with.

But hey, Blayde and Soul has no trinity. And they’re releasing in the west before 2016… However if the people that you call a minority get up and leave, I don’t think that they’ll look like such a minority anymore.

Torolan.5816:

You can not play the way you want? Why? You don´t have to be the one that changes characters. If you are the one that changes to the healer it´s your choice.
Try reading that again with the thought that this is exactly what is told non-zerkers for years at this point and if you, the good guy in this case, have any guilt to bear for it or if the accusations leveled at you for being a selfish “I want to play my way” guy are maybe uncalled for.

Raids are either a group experience that are together to have fun in which case it is not important who plays what, or a bunch of elitists who want to play their way at all costs.

yes, I can choose to not do the switch and then it would also count as my choice to not be taken in to do the content with anyone.

And I find you calling people that want to have their own builds as elitists weird. Here I am upset that I’ll have to make the change if I want to go anywhere, you’re telling me that I don’t have to, but at the same time I’m elitist if I’m not >_>

Torolan.5816:

but good guys sometimes take one for the team.

that’s kind of the point. It’s a thing that I had to do in all MMOs and the reason why I liked this one is because I didn’t need to do it here. Essentially you’re saying “you can no longer play the way that you want to play, but it’s okay because I always wanted to heal”. In fact it’s not okay at all.

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The act of wearing full zerker has no skill gate neither does destroying the molten berserker right when he leaps out in seconds, get real, you can almost automate the process, and you expect Anet to cater to people like you, its no wonder dungeons have been dropped entirely. You will lose raids the same way we lost dungeons if you continue with your godwin attitude.

ALL encounters in ALL MMOs can be made into an automated process. You can bot the encounters. Trinity or no trinity. In FFXIV Savage raids I have a set rotation as a healer and set movement pattern. The challenge is in determining exactly what pattern works the best and learning to execute it, but it’s still a set pattern. That doesn’t mean that learning and executing patterns takes no skill. But if you think that anything will change pattern wise if they introduce a trinity, then you’re kidding yourself.

Also Anet dropped dungeons because they felt like it. No matter how “nice” or “mean” the players are going to be it won’t influence their decision of do they want to continue making raids after the first one or not.

Kormeg.2469:

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

it’s kind of like going “well guys action combat didn’t work out, we’re going back to tab target!”. Way to kill your uniqueness and your spot in an MMO market. GW2 has done a lot of things differently, has been noticed and has been quite successful for quite some time.
Then they started to turn all the progress that they’ve made back. “Actually we will do an expansion and not free updates”, “actually we do want trinity”. With all of the changes, why as a consumer right now would I choose GW2 over Tera? Or Blayde and Soul? Or Wildstar?
Action based combat is a whole genre of MMOs. If GW2 will kill everything that made them different to begin with, what makes you think that that will improve their population and not the reverse?

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.

Nausicca.6038:

I don’t understand pve’ers. Really.
People are complaining about the “eventuality” of stacking for healing efficiency, but the current meta is already in a zerker wallstacking mindlesspewpew state.
So what? You’re gonna stack with a druid instead of an ele? I understand your frustration, it’s so game breaking.
But you know what. There are a lot of people who actualy enjoy healing in a mmo. And they will be probably happier to stack heal than stack pewpew. So stop thinking about yourself and how frustrating it is to stack with non dps. YOU WILL KEEP STACKING. Nothing will change. Don’t worry. Your corners are safe.

And healing is going to be awesome in wvw small group roaming. I can’t wait to be a healer again in a pvp environnement.

there are so many games with trinity that this was literally the only one without. I didn’t run zerker meta, but I enjoyed not having to fill a role. My elementalist and ranger? Who will ever want them in DPS now? I’ll have to go healer and I heal in so many other MMOs that I rather I wasn’t forced.

It’s such a 180 on your game design, on everything that this MMO was that today I reinstalled Wildstar. I was disappointed with that title and left it to come back to GW2, but you know what? At least I know what Wildstar is. I know how they can disappoint me. I know that they won’t pull a 180 like that there. And because GW2 is no longer an Ncsoft title I don’t have to worry about funding GW2 while I play that.

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

to all of those posting here:

people wanted build variety. The need to take other builds and not just the same boring zerker meta. However that didn’t imply trinity.
There are so many ways to force a build variety that doesn’t involve getting a dedicated healer. So I’m very much ashamed at Anet’s decision here.

Walhalla.5473:

Also the Healers are doing more than just Heal, they can also do Damage buff Allies or control the Enemies.
Something that is impossible in a Holy Trinity Setting

in FFXIV without healer’s DPS you won’t clear the current raids. Healers have something called “cleric stance” when they pop that they reverse their own stats to DPS stats. The cooldown on that is 5 seconds, so healers are jumping in and out of DPS stance.

Pandabro.8743:

When have they added a feature as big as guild halls for free?

GW1. Guild Halls among more things for guilds to do were promised a long time ago and for years were in “coming soon!” status. Then they decided to just put it behind a paywall.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Either way, LS will always be a content band-aid when they should be working on others things.
Let’s start with a list:

Would you rather see three new dungeons or Caithe break an egg?
Would you prefer there would be more than one raid, or find out if Eir is/isn’t mush?
Watch Scarlet destroy LA(again) or have them add a new PvP map every two months?
Feel grief for Marjory or…nevermind, you get the point.

While fun, I still think LS is just a tonic that we drink up while more important parts of the game get delayed.

where did they mention any new dungeons? Also with living story you got more than 3 new dungeons. The problem was that it was all temporary and later on turned into short fractals.
Where did they mention that they’ll add a new PvP map every 2 months, especially when their excuse for not adding PvP maps is because they’re too hard to balance for eSports?
Where did they say that there will ever be more than one raid, especially when the current raid won’t be in the expansion, but rather in the “coming soon!” category after the expansion’s release?

coso.9173:

haven’t you thought that maybe many of us are HAPPY to give money to anet for what we think is a great game that we have been able to enjoy for years without requiring payement?

you shouldn’t donate them money for what we already have, because there’s gem purchases for that. You should be paying if you think what is being offered in the expansion is worth it.

Leo G.4501:

Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

because they have a different upbringing and a different worldview.

Did you notice how it was only charr that voted to be very aggressive towards all sylvari? They’re insinuating a witch hunt and it would make sense for them to branch off there.

Humans are big believers of Gods. Do you really think that they wouldn’t go off to ask for help?

Asura are machine based. You think they would branch off to try and invent something?

See? Different races, different perspectives, even if there is a sole one goal.

Leo G.4501:

I’d suggest you study harder then. This is called “replay value” and is present in a lot of games, new and classic.

it’s called race favoritism really. There are other ways to add replay value, without shoehorning people into specific races. Ergo bad game design.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

They do have something different: antagonism, fear and probably a conflict towards the Sylvari race. If done right, Anet could turn that into a really interesting plot. As already shown in the initial HoT teaser, some members of other races already turn against the Sylvari, which is exactly why the Pale Tree wanted to keep their origins a secret at all costs.

“Stop treating us like monsters! We’re not the enemy!” -Canach

that’s exactly my point. Some races. Not all. At the moment it seems we have a sylvari vs non sylvari plot. Which isn’t right.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Mirta.5029:

Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

No it is not. Sylvari are DRAGON MINIONS! Their race probably plays a pivotal in this story, the other races don’t. They SHOULD get some unique experiences and content that other races don’t get. It makes sense! And if you want to experience it too, then nothing is stopping you from rolling a Sylvari.

And you keep acting like other races will miss out on a huge chunk of story. While this whole voice thing is probably just some extra flavour and effects.

charr are going after a witch hunt
asura are the inventors that had a lot of problems with teleportation lines and such
norn are very primal in nature
humans worship gods

and you’re saying that those races wouldn’t have different coping mechanisms with war? That they don’t deserve a unique storyline when it comes to fighting the dragon too?

Rhomulos.2089:

Mirta.5029:

MauricioCezar.2673:

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

So, should all of the order and race story elements have been shoehorned into my human Whispers character play through?

nah, I just believe that if you’re giving one race an exclusive quirk, others should get their own. Else only one race has a unique experience making it only worth it to play as that race and that race alone, as it’s extra lines and not changed story in general. Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

Every post you do contradicts yourself. Weren’t you saying this a few posts ago:

if I have to race switch in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it then yes, it’s bad design. Your player should be treated equal no matter he is an altoholic or not.

So how you now say that it should be fair to every race have its own story specific content (What would make you obligated to roll all 5 races in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it) ?

if everyone is exclusive then nobody is exclusive. Currently every race as a predefined amount of missions that are different from each other. Meaning it’s satisfying no matter which one you roll.
However if the story is the same for everyone, except for one race and the difference is more lines rather than a different story, then the only way to experience the full story line is to play that specific race.

As far as we know, the story will actually be different for Sylvari players. This means that it will benefit us to play both Sylvari and non-Sylvari throught he same instances, adding replayability.

I do hope that the story for other 4 races won’t be identical though. I mean at the last Season 2 cutscene we got to see charr going witchhunting for example. My point is that if sylvari-non sylvari stories are different, then so should be asura -norn – human – sylvari and charr.

MauricioCezar.2673:

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

So, should all of the order and race story elements have been shoehorned into my human Whispers character play through?

nah, I just believe that if you’re giving one race an exclusive quirk, others should get their own. Else only one race has a unique experience making it only worth it to play as that race and that race alone, as it’s extra lines and not changed story in general. Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

Every post you do contradicts yourself. Weren’t you saying this a few posts ago:

if I have to race switch in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it then yes, it’s bad design. Your player should be treated equal no matter he is an altoholic or not.

So how you now say that it should be fair to every race have its own story specific content (What would make you obligated to roll all 5 races in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it) ?

if everyone is exclusive then nobody is exclusive. Currently every race as a predefined amount of missions that are different from each other. Meaning it’s satisfying no matter which one you roll.
However if the story is the same for everyone, except for one race and the difference is more lines rather than a different story, then the only way to experience the full story line is to play that specific race.

Ashen.2907:

So, should all of the order and race story elements have been shoehorned into my human Whispers character play through?

nah, I just believe that if you’re giving one race an exclusive quirk, others should get their own. Else only one race has a unique experience making it only worth it to play as that race and that race alone, as it’s extra lines and not changed story in general. Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

Kumion.7580:

Mirta.5029:

…So we’re assuming that everyone mains a different race, one out of five races is getting exclusive treatment. Meaning 20% of the audience is being favoured. …

Exclusivity in my eyes is a bad thing. …

This, I feel, is the root of your problem. First, every paid player (thus, every HoT player) gets enough character slots to play at least one of each race. So, everyone is perfectly capable of creating a sylvari. Anet is not “excluding” 80% of their audience. The ones being “excluded” are those who choose not to play sylvari. Keyword there, CHOOSE.

Second, exclusivity is not inherently bad. I understand that you don’t like it. However, there are plenty of players who do. Saying “I don’t like it, so it’s bad for everyone and needs to stop” isn’t a great way to make a point; there are those on both sides of the issue who won’t be convinced.

GW2 is open to a variety of playstyles, builds, races, classes, appearances, personal stories, order stories, and further choices in gameplay options! Personally, I can’t imagine playing the same character all the time any more than I could face eating plain oatmeal for breakfast every day of the year. Embrace difference!

if I have to race switch in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it then yes, it’s bad design. Your player should be treated equal no matter he is an altoholic or not.

MauricioCezar.2673:

Crtiticize is a thing. Evaluate, or define it as a fact is a completely different thing.

I find it completely aceptable that you don’t like it being this way, and feel free to say it to anet. But as define it as bad design jsut because you dislike it, is completely wrong, even more when it is not fit to be considered bad design.

Gw2 is pretty explicit about “Personal Story” since the very start, you can check it out by each character initial story steps, or living story personal specific dialogues that pop’up depending on wich race, profession, or order you represent. That’s exactly what makes your story in game unique and “Personal”, and the game is advertised and sold as such.

Now taking the actual example, nobody is losing any narrative by not having acess to “Mordremoth call”, that is the only thing we have seen so far (If Anet is taking the course to say importante narrative steps whithin this mechanic, we have not yet seen, so its not even possible to criticize it), so your argument that 80% of their audience (Playerbase is exactly 20% of each race? hmm, interesting) are being “Excluded” is at minimun laugheable, and I can’t even take it serious, even more after this particular sentence of yours:

" I am just sure that Anet favour sylvari over anything else".

how many races are there? 5. So we’re assuming that everyone mains a different race, one out of five races is getting exclusive treatment. Meaning 20% of the audience is being favoured.

design, like art, is subjective. It’s not a science. If you went to university for game design you were told that.

Are impassable doors a bad design, or a technical limitation? If we removed all not posssible to enter doors would it make the game better?

Exclusivity in my eyes is a bad thing. Especially in a casual game.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Mirta.5029:

not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only.

And that’s where you’re wrong. Different races aren’t just for different looks, they are there for different experiences. Otherwise there wouldn’t be racial skills and race specific story. If you never play a norn, you will never get to play the personal story that comes with it either. Same goes for this.

this isn’t race specific story. This is “lose out if you’re specifically not a sylvari”. Because no other races get anything special.

MauricioCezar.2673:

First of all my friend, study design, game design, or narative design before yelling “This is bad design!!”.

Only because you heard this expression somwhere, don’t means you have what it takes to evaluate something as bad design or not.

As I see (In my 9 years of carreer as game designer), this is a a interesting narrative aspect, that brings much more in-depth to the world game lore in game itself, and not outside of it (Wiki/books/etcetera).

Another point to note, is that this is indeedly the only way to make it works. maybe we even hear him in the end of the story when we face mordremoth itself, but if the lore is fair enoguh in game, we as other races should not understand the dragon words, by the simply fact that its a non-translated language, so should not ever be understandable by any other race.

What you are asking, is basically the same as ask that the walls and graes in tyria written in new krytan to be rewritten in english for example. This game has a big way to immerse us in tyria world and lore, and I assure you my friend : This is good design.

I am finishing game design this year and it is most definitely bad design in my eyes. You’re making select players lose on the narrative for not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only. Effectively you’re excluding 4/5ths of your audience from the narrative that you designed.

With just how much of season 2 of the LS was sylvari centric and with sylvari getting exclusive narrative lines now I am just sure that Anet favour sylvari over anything else.

Also you saying that people can’t criticize design if they don’t have a degree is the same as saying “you can’t criticize cooking if you’re not the cook!”. Your customers are always free to critique you.