Guild Wars 2

You know, you’d think I’d learn by now not to post about controversial subjects, heh, but at least no flame wars have started

Kal Spiro.9745:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

First off, faulty AI is not a legitimate weakness. It is an unintended consequence of development. So yes, in this case exploiting that weakness can be an exploit. It’s not, but it can be.

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

Stacking is not an exploit, it is a cheese. It is the use of an unskillful tactics to employ maximum damage through minimum effort and maximum chance for survival. It is like using that one combo attack in a fighting game that you know your opponent can’t defend against and doing nothing but it until they die. But in this case you don’t even have to know a combo, you just have to stand in one place.

Exactly.

Maybe they could just up the damage some. They reduced it too much, they could increase it some, but not as much.

Or maybe escalating damage. Have it do X damage per skill use, +Y more each second after the first that its on.

shrug I dont know. Even though it was nerfed, Ive still used confusion – although I admit its a confusion/torment hybrid build, so….

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

I see what you’re saying, but what I mean by exploit in this case was that of unintended consequences. Granted, its not exploiting a bug, but I suspect the developers never INTENDED for stacking to be a viable options, but once it reared its ugly head they couldnt do anything about it without rewriting a great deal of code, more than would be viable to do.

I suppose I could be wrong in that. And I’ll grant you this, it isn’t exploiting a bug. It’s… perhaps exploiting is the wrong word, but it’s taking advantage of what I believe was a misjudgement on the part of developers who didn’t foresee stacking coming up the way it did.

I used Subject Alpha as an example and I will again. He used to be a difficult encounter. I remember people posting questions on how to beat him, he was so hard. then stacking was discovered, its tactic propogated to the general masses, and now, he’s borderline trivial.

And I’d bet you dollars to donuts the developers did NOT intend him to be so simplified by one thing: stand in one place all together and dodge once in awhile.

Again, I’ll admit I could be wrong. For all I know, its precisely what the developers intended. What do you think? Do you really think Subject Alpha was supposed to be as easy as stacking turned him into?

I’ve been running a condi shatter that has put some serious hurt on thieves, if they dont catch me utterly flat footed. not 100% perfect record, but I’ve won more duels against thieves than I’ve lost in pvp.

I have to say though that in WVW and some pvp, using a modied PU mesmer (where I use stealth to protect myself while my phantasms go to work), or a stunlock phantasm build have done well too.

The one that surprised thieves most though? Bunker builds with pu and phantasms. the thief comes out of cloak and hammers me… and is shocked when he sees I still have an appreciable amount of health left. throw out Decoy, then a couple phantasms and duck back under stealth… I usually like to use a soldier set with runes of the dolyak and the healing signet, PU, and triumphant distortion, so the thief also has some difficulty one-shotting my phantasms.

I’m now experimenting with another bunker build using signet of illusions and phantasmal defender along with the inspiration trait that buffs phantasms health 20%, more for WVW than pvp, also along with triumphant distortion, see if they can survive zergs long enough for at least some minor contribution lol… but I suspect not

I also want to know, where did this info come from? I didn’t see it in a post or anything.

I think the best way to balance zerker builds against others is to have at least some high value battles have attacks that are exceptionally dangerous to builds that are very low in defensive stats, thus vastly increasing the risk that full offensive builds will go down while more defensive builds can stay on their feet and continue to fight.

That way we dont get into silly games where we are looking to nerf what zerker was intended for, high dps output, and allow the high defensive builds to do precisely what they are intended for, surviving where others might not.

Although then we might end up with everyone having two armor sets in their inventory, their zerker and their non-zerker to accomodate for those circumstances lol.

You know, maybe I’m wrong, and I’m willing to be convinced. Comparing this to other mmos, do you really think that stacking was intended, that content beaten by stacking was intended to be so easily circumvented and trivialized?

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

Its faulty AI exploitation; which I lay at the feet of the developers, really, but still. Here is another example: I’ve become aware of a tactic used against Lupi to get him into the wall behind him, then lay a wall of reflection to get him to kill himself. They call it a tactic. I think its an exploit.

Now maybe you think that this is a reasonable exploit. that theres nothing wrong with it. Me? I think its a weak way to play. But I suppose as long as the developers arent going to protest it, not much that can be done.

(although honestly I think the real problem is developers would have to rework too much stuff to fix the issue, so they are leaving it alone for now)

bain of man.6857:

imho the worst part of dungeons is trying to run through everything just to get to the boss. might as well do away with trash mobs altogether since no one fights them anyway <.<

Well, there is that. In Arah, for instance, all the stealth racing through it… although in Arah even I have to admit fighting your way through that would extend the fights significantly longer. Whew, Arah is a long dungeon compared to the others, and fighting everything would be quite a bit longer….

laokoko.7403:

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

Do you think it have anything to do with AI.

or is it just that other game require only tank to stand infront of mob, and healer dps hiding behind. Many class dont’ have cleave so there’s no benefit, long CC’s which break when mob get attack etc.

Maybe a bit of both. I do think the AI could be improved. Just watching the AI fighting mobs in HoT beta showed me things could have been different, as they DO appear to be improved in HoT. If my eyes didn’t deceive me.

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

I never said anything about it one way or another. I was poining out one of the many threads that bring up the same topic, as well as the general responses to such threads.

As for other MMOs and high level encounters, just this: This isn’t other MMOs. THIS. IS. GUILDWARS!!!!! (Sorry couldn’t resist :P)
In any event, the game mechanics at the most basic level allow for stacking. Some like it, other don’t. Some understand why/when stacking is better, others just do it because thats how they were taught.

Should Anet fundementally change one of the core tenants of the game because a few people don’t like stacking?
Or should those who don’t like stacking, understand that stacking isn’t needed, teach the community a “better” way?

I’m not sure I’d say there were few. I’ve heard many people bemoan stacking… while doing it themselves on a daily basis. The impression I get is that many people dislike that its such a viable tactic, but STILL use it precisely BECAUSE its such a viable tactic.

Ah well.

You know, I’ll say this: sure, I can try and start a group and say no stacking. I might even find one.

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

So what do we do with this boss? Stand here, stack, pull him, and just hit some buttons til he dies. Next boss? Same thing, etc etc.

I love GW2, but this is one of my pet peeves. I’m trying to remember my old days with other mmos I havent played in literally years – or heck, maybe just GW1 – and the tougher battles for the most part required at least SOME mobility and SOME thought in your game play. With many of these encounters, its pretty much stack on and just cycle buttons without any thought on game play otherwise.

Of course this isn’t true of EVERY boss. And it is also reasonable to say there are obviously people who DO think stacking is fun, although I’d suspect that its more pressing the EASY button rather than anything else.

Example: Before stacking, Subject Alpha used to be a challenging fight. After stacking, he became trivial.

And many people ask, “stacking makes bosses playable, why get rid of it?” I respond with, “no, it makes said boss battles static, thoughtless, and unchallenging.”

And when one suggests “hey, lets not stack this dungeon,” further replies often say “wait, why do you want to handicap us?”

Maybe if they offered a second mode for dungeons, a hard mode that made stacking a more questionable choice, I’d be all for that. And honestly, its not that I want to ruin the fun of people who DO enjoy stacking.

It just… well, as I said, makes many fights static, predictable, and utterly routine. And since even people who dislike easy mode methods tend to go whats easiest rather than risk a possible dungeon run failure, well….

Many people on the forums complain because much of GW2 is too easy compared to the highest level content in other mmos. Honestly, wouldn’t you find dungeon runs, as an example, more enjoyable if it was more challenging?

Rhomulos.2089:

Pro-tip for many of you, stacking is largely useless nowadays. There are many bosses you don’t need to stack in a corner for, it doesn’t improve anything.

Stacking was done in the past because of FGS from Ele, with that dead you can just stand on/near the boss and move freely.

Stacking will always remain useful for killing trash mobs though, until we get an AI update (which I believe is going to come with HoT).

Many players in LFG seem to be conditioned to stacking, but it’s incredibly pointless now. The best example for this is the Icebrood Wolf champion at the beginning of CoE, theres literally 0 reason to stack for it.

Hm, if thats a game wide AI improvement, that will be excellent.

Battledoll.1803:

Try fractals, they do not allow much stacking on Bosses.

Thats true.

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

roachsrealm.9284:

give the AI the ability to react like human opponents and stacking will no longer work.

you might as well say please get rid of a legitimate military strategy because we are winning the war too easily.

you can play how you want, but what you want isn’t always the best way.

What I’m saying is its pretty dull/boring, but the vast majority of groups requires it anyway, so its almost impossible to get away from even when you DONT want to do it.

Furthermore, while I think overall GW2 is one of the best mmos around, this is a weakness not displayed by other mmos.

anabasis.7346:

If you are stacking you are voluntarily nerfing yourself.

not if the rest of the group requires it or get booted.

Leonhardt.8164:

I hope they don’t nerf zerk meta, I’ve always been a dps class and i love dpsing, i dont want my ascended zerk gear to be useless

no one wants it to be useless. We just want the other gear to be as viable a choice as zerker without, for example, getting booted from groups for having “non-meta” gear and all that garbage.

As the title says. I don’t mind an occasional boss where stacking works. But its used all over the place, especially in dungeons.

And it’s a crying shame, really. It turns encounters that could be very exciting into brainless exercises.

The key is to do it without nerfing melee characters. Maybe make the characters more mobile, or causing its damage output to increase the more it stays in one spot with little movement, or higher regeneration, or something.

I want encounters where you have to think more. Yes, I can voluntarily “nerf” myself and do it the hard way, but unless I find a group willing to do likewise (highly unlikely), it simply isnt going to get this tactic to go away.

So, while I realize this message will go unanswered by the Devs (I dont resent them for it, I know they are hard at work, but still), please consider a way to discourage stacking without nerfing melee characters.

Just saying. Thanks.

Knighthonor.4061:

Swimming would have been better if they just stuck to the World of Warcraft/Rift way of handling under water combat… its 10 time better than GW2’s underwater combat, yet it wasnt even a major feature in those games like it was hyped up to be here.

Why is it better? I didnt play either game much at all, barely even. So I’m not familiar with their way of doing it.

Puls.5867:

Don’t nerf IT just… Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

Amen. I know stacking works, and it works beautifully. But god do I hate it. Seriously, this is one area where the devs really need to work on that – without nerfing melee characters in the process!

dlonie.6547:

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve always imagined some bosses with unavoidable (other than some forms of invulnerability) attacks that do some appreciable damage, enough to be a serious threat to those with full aggressive stats, and a moderate threat to those with high defensive stats.

Like Mai Trinn? Some attacks you can’t block, some attacks you can’t dodge, and if you get it wrong it hurts.

Or possibly instead massive AOES that can be dodged, but do serious damage, and come out faster than endurance recharges, meaning you will almost certainly take some hits, etc.

Like Mai Trinn cannon phase, or Lupi p2 AoE barrage?

I have no problem with the idea of zerker, as long as they are threatened for that choice. Just as full bunkers are not contributing as much due to lower dps, zerkers should be threatened enough to make them at least pause and consider their choices.

We are. We’ve just done these same encounters for nearly three years at this point and have memorized the mechanics and timings. No AI can stand up to that.

We just need new content.

Yes, but your examples seem to be mostly exceptions and not the rule. Nevertheless though, I agree with the new content. Hopefully HoT provides that.

TheSwede.9512:

They’re not gonna directly Nerf Zerker gear in any way, I’d wager. The only way they could directly nerf it would be through nerfs to Power, Precision or Ferocity which will hurt more than just the PvE Dungeon meta.

They might, however, design encounters that are more difficult to deal with using Zerker gear, or simply more efficient to deal with through use of other gear. We can only speculate on this but it’s safe to assume that anything ANet throws out will probably be completely doable in Zerker gear still.

I’ve always imagined some bosses with unavoidable (other than some forms of invulnerability) attacks that do some appreciable damage, enough to be a serious threat to those with full aggressive stats, and a moderate threat to those with high defensive stats.

Or possibly instead massive AOES that can be dodged, but do serious damage, and come out faster than endurance recharges, meaning you will almost certainly take some hits, etc.

I have no problem with the idea of zerker, as long as they are threatened for that choice. Just as full bunkers are not contributing as much due to lower dps, zerkers should be threatened enough to make them at least pause and consider their choices.

So I was thinking the other day about how Water combat has been removed in PvP, and essentially removed from WvW. In the rest of the game, most water combat is a bit boring compared to land combat.

I think the problem is a bit obvious. Many utility skills are disabled underwater, and you have a total of two weapons, leaving no room for much build diversity.

I think the solution is obvious. Add more underwater weapons, more utility skills that work underwater (or at least function differently), and more interesting goals, etc.

And the best way to do that, of course, is to start working on the next expansion pack, to eliminate BUBBLES THE ELDER DRAGON. Set up entire ancient, sunken cities, new races to interact with en masse (I’m thinking specifically of the largos for instance), maybe new quaggan sub species, things like that.

My only question is, would people enjoy swimming. People love flying, but many players just dont seem to enjoy swimming as much… even though swimming is, for all intents and purposes in a video game, flying.

Anyway, just my two cents. Bubbles. More underwater build options. Atlantis (or the GW2 equivalent.). Largos and Quaggan.

Lots of people have. The issue is the developers most likely didnt have the time to create entire new personal storylines to accomodate the new classes. theyve been working kitten developing HoT and the story of modremoth.

But how do you develop the new classes and disrupting lore? Its a conundrum.

Seyiwaji.4082:

there is no need for weapon swap, using signet recharge the phantasm,

I meant berserker(or) Duellist, since they are the most powerfull dps phantasm.
Impact.2780 understood what i mean.
The time gasp is only 3 sec to cast them. since Illusion Persona, is a base line with 3 clone you have minimum 4 second time until you’ll go back in time.

This is assuming you dont have to defend or get interrupted either, though. All it takes is, say, a hammer warrior or zerker thief or something to suddenly revise your strategy.

Which is another way of saying, “Wow, this does look cool, but its complicated to pull the entire combo off and will probably be ‘interrupted’ a lot in pvp… and some pve.”

So I don’t think it will be overpowering at all. I think this will be the golden child combo chain if you can get it all off (unless no one notices you or thinks to go attack you or whatever LOL)

Now in pve, it will be much better.

I’m not sure what the point of having just one skill, which summons it, then replaced with 5 skills, at least one of which destroys it, resetting the summon bar.

Unless the summon goes on cooldown?

It does seem intriguing though.

MiniEquine.6014:

Charritable.8709:

Would have been great to be taught by Rytlock himself, in the Mists, indeed, as it was meant to be.

In term of lore, it poses serious chronologic problems, but as far as I remember, Anet does not give a s**t.

It was easier to justify it lore-wise before Rytlock was declared as the “world’s first Revenant”, but I have a feeling it is recoverable. The Mists can affect time, so I could see Revenants running through a simulation of the past through the Mists, doing the personal story as they go and eventually killing Zhaitan in their own “instance”, all the while still existing in the game as it is right now, before the assault on Mordremoth. This will likely not be explained at all in-game, but hopefully Anet tells us something canon about this. It’s hard to justify otherwise.

Rytlock has a friendly chronomancer who sent him back in time to deliver the lore to the masses.

kitten though he forgot to mention about mordremoth. What was he thinking?!?!

But you dont have to wait for the cooldown to get three out, and that may be critical depending on the time you have before the continuum shift expires.

You know whats funny? I didn’t think HoT was meant to fix any problems. I was thinking it was to provide new content, like other expansions do. Sure, its seriously adjusting traits, but its also providing elite specializations, a new class, new areas, etc, and perhaps thus only a small part is for doing any mechanics or balance fixes for the rest of the game.

I’m done arguing for now, have to pick up my kids from my ex-wife’s. I’ll be back in a day or so.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

“Success” is only relative to your experience. You may think you’re successful where in fact quite below average. This is where those with more experience come in and give you a much more realistic perspective of your “success”.

I used to ran shatters in dungeons, extensively, and know exactly what it’s capable of:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTiXuEfk1qs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92-8kCxprcc

Once I got past my shatter-fetish I experimented with phantasm builds and came to a definitive conclusion that not only my DPS became much higher but I also actually was more useful too. Stability, interrupts, condi clears, boon strips, mob control, all were simply better with a proper phantasm build. No matter how many times I go back to shatter, it simply does not match phantasm builds.

If you still have doubts, feel free to check these out:
- CoE
- Mes
- my sig

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

Been there, done that. Plenty of time, CoE, Arah, you name it. All with a proper meta build. There is a reason why there are “meta” builds, and that’s because they have proven themselves to be VERY effective, both in utility AND top dps.

Your experience being different from mine doesn’t make yours right and mine wrong. Again that’s arrogant.

And I wasn’t saying phantasm builds don’t work. I was saying dps isn’t the only part of the game, there are other things that can be important too.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

“Success” is only relative to your experience. You may think you’re successful where in fact quite below average. This is where those with more experience come in and give you a much more realistic perspective of your “success”.

I used to ran shatters in dungeons, extensively, and know exactly what it’s capable of:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTiXuEfk1qs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92-8kCxprcc

Once I got past my shatter-fetish I experimented with phantasm builds and came to a definitive conclusion that not only my DPS became much higher but I also actually was more useful too. Stability, interrupts, condi clears, boon strips, mob control, all were simply better with a proper phantasm build. No matter how many times I go back to shatter, it simply does not match phantasm builds.

If you still have doubts, feel free to check these out:
- CoE
- Mes
- my sig

People with more experience? I’ve been playing since open world beta 2. With the exception of one month I’ve played nearly every day since.

More experience. Snort.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Your build is barely not crap at everything, and good at nothing. I guess if you’re happy with being barely not crap at everything you do, that’s fine. Most of us like to strive to be just a bit better than that though.

It’s amusing that you’re trying to argue PvE effectiveness with Frifoxy though. He, better than anyone, can tell you whether your build is good or not.

As has been said so many times before anything “works” in PvE. The mere fact that it works doesn’t mean it works well, and doesn’t mean you’re anything other than useless dead weight being carried on a team.

You’re probably one of those zerker only elitists too.

I always find it amusing that because some names are more well known than others it assistant means they must know better.

Friend of mine was in a group like you Two. Elitist THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY types. In v argh. Zerkers, dps masters etc. He asked me to join because he was sick of their attitudesand wanted me to show them up.

Yes my build does not maximize dps, but dps isn’t everything. Master of none also correct. What it gives me is expanded options.

My Arah build is a little different but still based off options rather than dps.

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

That last time in Arah, when we ran through one of the running sections, I got through and watched them struggle. Good players n but having a bad day. I didn’t have an issue because I had more survivability. I ended up making ice cream and coffee while waiting on them.

You can go around tossing names all you want. Means nothing. There are lots of players who don’t even comeon the forums etc but are very excellent players.

Means nothing. My builds have been effective in actual play. I’ve outperformed dps builds in pve. I’ve bested dps builds in pvp. I’m not saying I’m the best player ever. I’m saying there is more than one way to skin a cat, and claiming there is only ONE TRUE WAY is arrogant, ignorant, hide-bound and close-minded.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Edit: didn’t know about the aoe immunity, good to know.

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters.

This isn’t even remotely true. Phantasms also die in 1 shot from any mob in a dungeon, so there’s no difference at all.

You’re right so I’ll rephrase, phantasms AND shatters have always been a wonky DPS delivery method and have deep inherent flaws that keep the class always feeling hamstrung. (E.g., phantasms/shatters being ineffective in AOE situations, having phantasms be our main source of consistent DPS which encourages us to not use our main core mechanic (shatters), phantasms/shatter being tied down to individual enemies which prevent you from quickly switching dps from one target to the next, etc.)

I think the lead class designer (Robert?) is trying to address some of these issues in HoT with our new specialization traits so I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they are enough to overcome some of the core issues with our class. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), he wasn’t part of the original team that designed the class, so I do get the feeling that our class is sort of being pulled in different directions that may leave certain past design choices (confusion maybe) feeling less powerful/overlooked.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I’m hoping one day that Anet will look at our class and address the issues that plague the foundation of this class. Until that happens, we may be just getting bandaid “fixes” from one patch/expansion to the next.

I realize that many of you would consider it non-ideal, but there are ways to extend phantasm survivability:

Inspiration V (persisting images): +20% phantasm health
Signet of Illusions: Illusion Health +50%
Dueling XIII: among other things, newly summoned phantasms gain 1s distortion
Phantasmal Defender: splits damage between allies and itself (this can be a lot o fun when combined with inspiration’s minor adept trait vengeful images, as it triggers the retaliation off of the defender for each split in addition to the original target; also note the defender has much higher health than other illusions)

Am I saying this is a VIABLE build? No. I haven’t really tried it. But this combination of items would increase phantasm survivability, and they would surely get at least one attack off.

Now with that in mind, I have two comments concerning using illusions in dungeons. I do COE a lot. I LOVE that dungeon. I use phantasms AND shatters all the time in there and they do just fine; for example, stacking against Subject Alpha, my illusions survive a surprisingly long time. I’m not sure why, actually, I expect them to die much faster than they do. They don’t survive the entire fight, but they often survive through at least one aoe and still be able to attack.

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

As for shatters, I use them… as a supplimentary rather than a primary attack. My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions. I also have mirror images and decoy. My shatters dont do a lot of damage individually, but I can generate many illusions over the battle. I do “other stuff” and shatter for supplimental damage… and against Subject Alpha, I can save some dodges by using blurred frenzy and distortion, giving me more time to recharge endurance when I need to, and pumping out shatters amongst my other attacks.

More of sustained minor shatters than massive dps spike shatters. But like I said, with this build its intended to be a supplimental attack rather than the primary one, but it also allows me to do more long term shattering when there are lots of weenies rather than a few hideously strong mobs too.

I would never want it as dark EQ, everquest nights were pitch black and impossible.

But it could stand to be darker.

Spartacus.9743:

What we are missing in the revenant is:

- 3 new legends ( 2 core + 1 elite)
- 3 new trait bars (2 core + 1 elite)
- New weapons combination (probably sword mh/ dagger oh/ melee staff)
- 1 more utility skill in each legend (each set of skills will have 1 healing + 4 utilities + 1 elite)

In concusion, until they’ll show the complete class we should just wait instead of making threads of how an incomplete class has low customization way

If all the legends follow how the current ones work, taking a legend which defines skills 6-10, then it seems likely that the criticisms of low customization will stand. After all, only one weapon set you can use in combat + a selection of two builds that predetermine skills 6-10 isn’t anywhere near the customization of any other class in the game.

Dead.5829:

Test.8734:

Morfedel.4165:

The first thing to note is that the Revenant, clearly, isn’t finished.

Isn’t it interesting that the Revenant is in the exact same state it was in the previous beta, all that time ago? I wonder, did ArenaNet do any work at all on it? I can’t help but wonder if most of the team was busy trying to pick between Dragonhunter and DragonintsertWoWprofessionhere.

Isn’t it interesting that this was a stress test using what was basically the same builds as the previous beta and what was brought to cons, so you can’t see any changes that were made between then and current, internal builds they’re working on?

Angst.

I agree with you on your comments; I have no problems with limited builds during beta tests. My own concern is that even when they add more legends to channel that it will amount to “select your favorite prebuilts” rather than promoting build diversity.

As I said earlier, this could very well just be an artifact of limiting builds for tests, but even if they come out with more legendaries to channel, if every legendary has a predetermined selection of skills for 6-10, and you only get one weapon set you can use, you will have much less build diversity than other professions.

And I’ll be ecstatic to be proven wrong.

Khenzy.9348:

Lily.1935:

someone has never played a necromancer before.

Shoosh you.
Way to nickpick and miss the point.

Reaper with greatsword and its respective death shroud plays nothing like a Necromancer with lets say, Axe or dagger. Staff is a backup set.
The difference from a Mesmer to Chronomancer is going to be abysmal.
Also, I play every profession.

And my point still stands.

I completely disagree. Chronomancer’s changes are significant.

possibly it isn’t being designed for lazy players. Maybe its being designed… well, to make it easier on the developers for balance purposes.

Which still amounts to the same thing in the end, a character with very little build diversity. I’m just hoping that I’m wrong, and that the only reason they are locked into skills like they are is for testing purposes and the final result will be that they have at least some ability to tweak it.

Count me as another that was happy. There are still bugs and other items that need work, but I was definitely feeling positive!

Etienne.9408:

Agreed, I found the day events really great and full of diversity, however when night came things got a bit boring and repetitive. The same defend and escort events around the map left me wanting a lot more “excitement” during the night.

All the rest of the stuff was great though, I absolutely loved combining bouncing shrooms with gliding to take some amazing shortcuts and explore this gorgeous map.

You got both? Nice! I saw most people only got one mastery. I certainly didn’t get even one, I was too adhd.

How high would you bounce?

Combat is a bit more dynamic. NPCs do seem to show a bit more intelligence than in other parts of the game. At least some. But they have some new sets of abilities that are a lot of fun. although I do have one minor gripe as well.

Several creatures in the area have a.. well, I think it was a kind of defiance bar like they talked about earlier, where if you break the bar before an ability triggers, then something beneficial to the npcs happen.

To reference the wyvern video, if I’m recalling it correctly, its bar would fill and it would launch in the air and do several strifing runs at the area before landing again. Unless you broke the bar with crowd control effects, then the flight would falter and the wyvern would get stunned.

Well, I saw two creatures that were recurring that used a similar system. The first was a creature that would charge up its bar, then slam its weapon on the ground for a powerful 180 degree cone in front of it. If you hit it with a crowd control effect that bar was completely discharged and the attack failed.

More dramatically though was the cavalry. They are a rider-and-mount that, until the rider is forced off the mount, is invulnerable. And you dismount them by crowd control effects. Unlike the first monster, though, this one doesn’t have its entire bar broken with one effect. It takes more than one, and it recharges quickly, so either one CC spammer or a couple working together can break the bar, separate the mount from rider, and then kill them separately.

On the one hand, this is a really cool effect (it reminds me of three toed tootsie, and I suspect was the model for this) but on the other hand, it almost feels like you HAVE to bring crowd control, else you will have a really hard time with… well, with the cavalry anyway. With the hammer swinging ones (no I dont recall the names of either) you could just dodge out of the aoe

But if you dont bring CC you will want to make sure some friends are with you.

And speaking of abilities of creatures, we come to masteries. I have little to say on the matter as I didn’t get to try much.

But hang gliding may possibly be the single most important mastery for this map. Watching people gliding across ravines and gaps that are fatal to fall through, while U had to run around and took a great time, was both fun and frustratng.

For example, trying to find the wyvern boss fight, I asked for directions, and someone said “just run to ravine x and fly across.” I responded, “I don’t have hang glider yet,” and the guy replied with, “oh, you’re screwed then, sorry.”

LOL

Hang gliding lets you cross the map much faster (though you do miss the “fun” of navigating the maze lol), but there is also mushroom mastery, that I saw no one use, but with things like bouncing mushrooms, mega bouncing mushrooms adrenaline mushrooms, etc, it definitely intrigued me.

tooltips on some of the other masteries intrigued me. For example, the itzel line had one that said that at that level, you could access the itzel turrets to shoot wyverns out of the sky.

!!! Now that intrigued me!

And there were several that we couldnt really use. For example, the fractals masteries.

Does look like lots of fun!

I’ve seen some complaints about the maps in HoT, but I have to say, so far I love it! You can find flat through most of the game. This is giving us a very different experience. Layers and layers of area to explore. A bit like a maze.

Once in awhile it was frustrating. Trying, for instance, to get to the wyvern when I didn’t know how to get there, I missed it- or rather, I would have, if the event hadn’t been broken!

But that was in large part because of the time limit. Having only a limited time to get there, knowing that in an hour or so that was it for this beta run, I felt pressured to try and get there fast.

But once I realized I wouldn’t make it, and started taking my time, I really enjoyed exploring the place. It really was in a lot of ways a maze, stacked up over several levels, cliffs and stairways in ruins and vine bridges and rivers and enormous trees that, if in the real world, would be truly awe inspiring just how huge they were!

It was visually beautiful for the most part, though as a mix of jungle and desert, some of the desert sections were too much like drytop and silverwastes for my liking. Then again, perhaps it makes sense to transition as it did, and as you make your way further into the map it does change into a more luscious area.

The map wasn’t completely open, however. The lowest levels were closed off, and insta death if you fall, not even hitting the bottom. Other areas, horizontally located, were likewise closed off. So who knows what other surprises awaits!

Some events were reminiscent of silverwastes, the ebb and flow of mordremoth vs survivors of the pact. But some of them were very intriguing, although they broke at some points and didn’t completely function.

For example, at one point there were two events running simultaneously, and quite obviously intended to do so. At one area, there was this enormous champion vine, that mortars had to be used to destroy it. Meanwhile the pcs in that area have to protect the mortar supplies. The problem is there is also a champion troll vinetender who protects the champion vine with a shield.

However, on the other side of a – well, I hesitate to call it a chasm, but it is somewhat difficult to cross and survive – are a set of pale reaver snipers who are sniping at the troll vinetender, who need to be kept alive as they kill off the vinetender. So… two events that rely on each other, and it was fun…. if it hadnt broke(or, perhaps the mortar supplies werent being protected adequately, we weren’t entirely sure).

Several events did break across the map but we understood this was still a closed beta and weren’t terribly concerned.

The most fun I had? Was finding the mushroom people and sharing Mario Superbrothers jokes as we ran through it lol

To compare, while elementalists get only one weapon set, they have four different lists of abilities they can use, and can freely change 6-10; engineers also get only one weapon set, but can use weapon kits to change their 1-5, and also get toolbelt skills, and can also change 6-10.

Revenents get one weapon, that doesnt change, and two very specific defined sets of 6-10. They can change the entire set, but only to other specific lists. This basically means you are choosing to play one of two pre-builts, with the only variation is what you do with your traits.

Frankly I think this is a bad idea. There has been much discussion over the years, including by the devs, about build diversity. This class has very little diversity compared to other classes.

Now, it could be an artifice. This complaint has been raised before, and we got a response from the devs that all wasn’t set in stone yet. And maybe they have more planned, like for instance perhaps each legend gets two different choices in each slot you can select between combats, or perhaps the revenenant will have a base skill for each you can select to use instead of the legend specific one.

I’m just guessing, far left field stuff here, but the point being, if the class’s final version is like this, just with more legendaries, weapons and trait lists, I’m afraid it will be found dissatisfying as a class that has few real build options. “Here, play one of our prebuilts, dont worry about making your own build!!!”

We will see. The class is intriguing and fun, I enjoyed it a lot, but not being fully developed yet it’s hard to say. It may end up becoming relegated to a “beginner” class as one you don’t have to worry too much about changing the builds a whole lot. I hope this perception is wrong.

So rather than give a review of everything in one post, I decided I’ll break them up. This one is, obviously, about Revenants.

The first thing to note is that the Revenant, clearly, isn’t finished. Only three trait lines, only two weapon combinations total you can use, and only two legends, so this is based on a combination of the class in it’s current state along with some assumptions. You know what they say about making assumptions, though, so take all this with a grain of salt.

I also realize many of you already know this, so any information you find repetitive, well, that part isn’t targeted to you anyway

When logging in, you find that you have two weapon combinations your character can equip; either a hammer or a Mace/Axe combination. The revenant, like the elementalist and engineer, only gets one weapon set equipped at a time, but at current the selection is pretty slim.

The revenenant also comes with two legends he can channel, Mallyx the Unyielding and dwarf king Jalis Ironhammer.

In essence, the character works as such: like the engineer and elementalist, they get the one weapon set. With the aforementioned other two, they get character mechanics that allows them to change their skills 1-5, giving them the weapon flexibility lost by having only one weapon set.

Curiously, though, instead of replacing skills 1-5, the legendary channeling replaces, and determines, skills 6-10.

This creates the odd effect of your not changing your weapon skills during combat… ever. So, I wonder if switching the legend you are channeling will allow weapon swapping effects to trigger, otherwise things such as on swap sigils won’t function. I have to admit, I forgot to check this while playing, I’m sure someone else noticed though and can comment on that

The revenant seems to have a lot of moving parts to consider when playing, and has some interesting and intriguing abilities. For example, a trait that gives 2.5 seconds stability every time the revenant dodges. Imagine that with some vigor

The legends define a definite style of play (which is in a way a problem, as I’ll point out). The dwarf stance, as an example seems to be the more direct tanky, granting stability, taunting, cleansing conditions, and the like, while the demonic form really loves spreading around conditions, at the price of suffering some conditions itself (although it can also get some of the new boon Resistance to ignore conditions for a short while).

While it won’t be for everyone, I find this character a lot of fun to play, though it does have a bit more of a learning curve than some. I think most people will find its capabilities satisfying, though it certainly isnt for everyone.

The only real problem I see is going to be build diversity. What it really boils down to is this: is what we saw so far going to be a pretty solid skeleton for the rest of the legends or are there more options with each legend?

The issues are as follows:

1. Revenants only get one weapon set. I’m sure more WEAPONS will be available, but only one actual set is there to use.
2. You only get two legends to channel. Yes, we will get more legends, but you can only have two equipped.
3. Each legend has a specific set of skills you can use 6-10 that you cant change.

(continued)

Compensated? Dude, this isnt exactly an actionable offense you can take someone to court for.

I know it sucks. but come on, be realistic. They choose their time slots for a reason, and if you can’t make it to their chosen time slots, it isn’t their fault.

I do think their choice of time slots was not a good one, because it did make it hard for a large population to be there, but seriously, this wasn’t a product they were releasing to market that day, this was a beta test, which is for them to test the game out to see what needs repairing.

In exchange for helping them test, you get the opportunity to experience some of the game early. But beta testing is still for the company, not for you. If you grinded for the portal but couldnt get in because of your schedule, it’s not their fault, and therefore you don’t deserve compensation.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I still don’t seem to have a beta slot on my account log in. I also haven’t received any HoT email despite signing up for the newsletter 12 times. I got the beta portal, but i’m starting to get worried… anyone else have a portal but no email or slot yet?

Yes. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Beta-Email/first#post5096747

Good luck.

Well, that thread was started by me, and it turned out I DID get the email, my client just screwed it up. And all my gw2 emails. Weird thing was, it wasn’t going to my spam folder, it was just… invisible. Still trying to figure out exactly what happened, but running a search for “guild wars 2” in my email search found it.

That being the case, I DO have a beta character slot now, appeared recently, so check that when you log in.