Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nage.1520:

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

If people fail it over and over, then apparently it IS challenging.

Some of the Wardens hit like a truck, even if you’re packing full toughness gear. I’m not surprised that Warden 3 for example, tended to wipe lots of groups. I would call that challenging enough.

It’s not challenging if you took any time at all to look at it. Warden 3 was basically, avoid the mines. That was half the battle. It was more than half the battle. And Warden 2 was dead easy if you understood what you had to do but people didn’t, even though they were told repeatedly in map chat what to do.

Kite the boss onto his mines so he can be stunned and attacked. Any five people in my guild could have done any warden at any time. The fact that people couldn’t do this showed a lack of understanding of the game’s mechanics. That doesn’t make it challenging content.

I’m not saying it was dead easy. I’m saying that a lot of people simply didn’t care to find out what they had to do.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

deleted for space

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

I’ve beaten every dungeon in the game. I’ve done fractals up to level 34. I just don’t care to do them that much. Yes, I just bang around the open word. Yes, I have a bunch of 80s.

The difference is, most players ARE casual players. That’s my point. Most players dont’ have 8 – 80s. That’s my point.

You need end game because you need something challenging to do, because you’ve done everything four million times…but that doesn’t make you a majority.

You can see how many good players there are at events like the Marionette. None of those fights on the platforms should have been particularly hard, but they were failed often enough for me to say with some certainty that the bulk of the population doesn’t need challenging end game content.

A small percentage of the playerbase needs that.

Sorry, but Marionette is not challenging end-game content. It’s rushed mid-level “/fallasleephittingonebutton” content. Many players I have spoken to about Marionette said that they were watching tv while afk-autoattacking things.
I did Marionette once, wondered at the zerg, left the area and never came back. Zerg content is by definition easy and not challenging, at least in the way zergs work in GW2.

One thing I very much liked was the Queen’s Gauntlet. That was worthy of end-game (but got deleted sadly). It was hard enough to be challenging (I died numbrous times), yet not that hard that you ragequitted it.

What you say is fair, not everyone has 8 level 80s, but if I watch at my current guild, everyone there has 4-10 level 80s. We’re a WvW-guild, I’ll owe you that, but it still means a huge percentage has completed the actual content once or more.

Your analysis also says to me: if you completed all the content, there’s no reason to stay! So everyone who completed all content should just go for another game?
That really is dangerous for a game, because it means everyone will move on at a certain point and the game will never have a stable playerbase.

Obviously you didn’t do the marionette, and comments like this make you lose credibility.

I’m not talking about the zerg of people defending the lanes. I’m talking about when people ran through the gate and ended up with small groups on individual platforms that, for the most part, couldn’t help each other. Sometimes you only had two guys on a platform. That’s the real challenge of the encounter and can’t be defined as a zerg by any definition.

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

That’s why you don’t need c hallenging end game content in a themepark MMO. Because so many people can’t even handle the marginally difficult stuff.

Sirendor.1394:

Now tell me…

If GW1 was upgraded to GW2 graphics, got smoother combat and animations, jumping, action combat, upgraded PvP and upgraded skins… wouldn’t we all be playing GW1 then?

I mean… GW2 scrapped all the good things of GW1 and simply copied all the lore and made it a WoW copy. It’s in no way a decent successor. GW1 was the better game in terms of user-friendliness, PvP, story, combat balance, expansions, grind and so much more. The only problem is that it is dated: graphics, animations, combat are all anno 2005.

I’m not sure. I’d be torn, but I’d probably stick with Guild Wars 2.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

I’ve beaten every dungeon in the game. I’ve done fractals up to level 34. I just don’t care to do them that much. Yes, I just bang around the open word. Yes, I have a bunch of 80s.

The difference is, most players ARE casual players. That’s my point. Most players dont’ have 8 – 80s. That’s my point.

You need end game because you need something challenging to do, because you’ve done everything four million times…but that doesn’t make you a majority.

You can see how many good players there are at events like the Marionette. None of those fights on the platforms should have been particularly hard, but they were failed often enough for me to say with some certainty that the bulk of the population doesn’t need challenging end game content.

A small percentage of the playerbase needs that.

Nick.6972:

I’m willing to bet that most of the GW2 players would fail in Shadow Form tanking, dungeon running, because it would require much more than pressing a single skill.

There’s NO build diversity in GW2 whatsoever.
Changing armor, weapon and retraiting doesn’t change your build.

I’ve been running same Guardian GS build since the beta, for almost 2 years. You know how boring that is?

I’m willing to bet most Guild Wars 1 players would fail it too. You seem to think bad players only exist in this game. They exist in every game, usually in the majority. That’s what makes players like you in demand.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Nage.1520:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Yep, GW1 IMO was/is much better in many ways, there are only a handfull of things that blows, but, the good far outweighs the bad. It’s a shame these people tried fixing what wasn’t broken in GW1, the ONLY THINGS I find as an improvement with GW2 is the ability to jump giving us the abilty to traverse rocky areas, the ability to dodge incoming fire, the graphics and the ability to swim and have underwater combat(although it lacks enough of it).

Don’t forget the auction house!

Sorry I could care less about the auction house, IMO the personal trading is MUCH BETTER.

Gah. Having to stand in Kamadan all day selling crap was the worst thing about Guild Wars 1 and the main reason I would never go back there. I don’t have anything against personal trading, I simply have no need for it.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Yep, GW1 IMO was/is much better in many ways, there are only a handfull of things that blows, but, the good far outweighs the bad. It’s a shame these people tried fixing what wasn’t broken in GW1, the ONLY THINGS I find as an improvement with GW2 is the ability to jump giving us the abilty to traverse rocky areas, the ability to dodge incoming fire, the graphics and the ability to swim and have underwater combat(although it lacks enough of it).

Don’t forget the auction house!

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

edited for space

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Then you have no idea what you wrote in your prior response.

The trinity isn’t going anywhere.

By the looks of the new and up coming games it’s making a very large come back.

As YOU yourself have posted – GW2 in it’s current trinity less state “sort of sucks”.

Do you really need to say more or want me to quote your response again?

I said the dungeons sorta suck…but since you don’t have any idea of how I feel about dungeons from other games, you’re making a large assumption here.

I generally don’t prefer instanced content in any game, so I’m less likely to enjoy it. That said, I like the dungeons in the game better than I have liked dungeons in other games.

You can quote me all you like, but you’ve still made an unwarranted assumption.

Guild Wars 1 was an awesome game. It also had its share of flaws.

Guild Wars 2 is a good game that is likely to get a lot better. It’s already gotten better in some ways. I like the game more now than I did when I first started playing.

I hated one thing about Guild Wars 1. If you were out in the world, you were out in the world with only the people you brought with you. That alone is enough to make this a better game for me.

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Sirendor.1394:

Since “END-GAME” has become one of the eminent topics in this large thread, lets elaborate?

1. What does Anet do wrong in terms of End-Game?
There is no actual end-game content:

• Dungeons are a repetition of content. Random variation in paths is non-existent.
• Gear makes for a very time-consuming end-game activity, BUT it isn’t actually combat, it’s just a number grind.

On a side-mark:

• World vs. World could be end-game, but there’s no progression, no guild customization, no commander evolution, no story campaigns or combat missions.
• “Structured” PvP could have been end-game if it had a LOT more game modes, more maps etc.

2- What should have been end-game?

• Profession specific missions:
  - Theft for thieves (break into houses in both pve as pvp, pick-pocket or deceive)
  - Engineering for engineers (eg. developing new potions, creating new weapon types as kits etc),
  - Elemental experiments for elementalists
  - Mercenary jobs for warriors
  - Protectorate missions, holy works for guardians
  - Wilderness survival and pet training, archery for rangers
  - Death arts, summoning, conjuring for necromancers
• Profession specific npc ‘guilds’ in cities with story elements and progression, as well as class-specific armour and weapon skins unlocking
• Guild halls with GvGvG and sandbox building of houses
• Alliance wars with a good story background instead of WvW
• Dungeons: explorable mode REALLY explorable, not a pre-made path, but explore at your own liking, looking for hidden passages, special challenge rooms etc
• Gear: no stat differences such as berserker, cleric, soldier… but skin unlockments through doing quests in the world
• Massive personal story that focuses on the hero and is written a lot better (give us something like GW1 personal story… amazing quality that)
• Instances with bigger groups next to the 5-man dungeons.

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Nage.1520:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

It is no longer pure cosmetics (would you still opt for the torture of the grind if it wasn’t for that minor stat increase?), and it’s also a dangerous precedent.
Players should be rather wary of what they might be in for in the long run.

This I agree with. It is a dangerous precedent. But I think the company really is vested in making it so anyone can do any content, pretty much with any gear.

Gear means a whole lot less in this game already than it does in most others. I mean people already do naked dungeon runs of some of the hardest dungeons. I’m thinking that people are overestimating in their head how important stats are based on experiences they’ve had from other games.

darkace.8925:

Beldin.5498:

Wildstar seems to be WoW 2.00 .. so it will maybe attract those players that want to have an everlasting raid-grind for item progression. I can’t say i would be too unlucky if we loose maybe some of those players that are responsible for ascended items.

I don’t know why people keep saying this when it seems to me Wildstar has a much in common with GW2 as it does WoW. But even if it is just a WoW clone, it’s something else. It’s new. It’s fresh. After 1.5 years of very few permanent changes, you know what GW2 is? Stale. Stagnant.

It’s a raiding game. That’s what it will end up focused on, mark my words. Raiding games always end up focused on raids, in PvE at least.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Galen Grey.4709:

Nick.6972:

Perhaps there’s nothing major to look forward to in 2014?

doubtful, there are the at least the so far elusive big projects referenced here:

from the long lost past of june 2013
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/colin-johanson-interview-looking-ahead

“we have some longer term projects some teams are working on the background, that we’re not going into detail about yet, we want people to know that new regions and dragons are all things we plan to do but its not something we’ll be releasing this year. "

and reiterated about here in the more recent january 2014:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2

“also as some of the really big projects we’re working on in the background come to fruition, we’re going to see a spike again in users.”

Those “big projects” have been referenced over and over again for the past 17 months. They are meaningless marketing hype. I don’t even believe they have these mystical teams they talk about. There are 4 LS teams and that’s pretty much it, I have 17 months of releases to back up that statement…. talk is cheap.

Edge of the Mists wasn’t done by a living world team. It’s a major major update. It’s a new relatively large map. Guess you’re only seeing what you choose to see.

Nick.6972:

Would you work for the 1/4 of your current salary?
Even if you loved your job, sooner or later you would lose your motivation and move to a better paid job.

I exercise for free, all the time. No one pays me for it. I don’t get rewarded. I still exercise. Sometimes it feels like a job and I still do it.

If you’re not having fun, don’t play the game. If you’re playing the game just for rewards, that’s pretty bad anyway. People who play that way really can’t be satisfied.

If the reward is too easy to get, everyone gets it and everyone is rewarded. If the reward is too hard to get it’s a second job. But everyone has different levels of what is too hard, so no one can ever really be happy.

Sirendor.1394:

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

Why have jumping puzzles when they’re completely optional? Why have vistas when they’re completely optional? Why have caves when they’re completely optional.

Anet tried to create a themepark MMO with different things for different people to do. Some people love mini games, some people hate them. So Anet included them, but they’re optional.

Some people enjoy grinding for gear? Why? No clue, hate it myself, but for some, that’s what MMOs are about. So Anet provided it.

The trick was to make it so that those who didn’t want it didn’t have to get it. I think Anet made a fair compromise on that score.

Edit: Wish I’d read Galen’s response before posting, I could have saved myself the time. lol

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

Zenith.6403:

Fiontar.4695:

GW2 has stopped being about players playing because it’s fun to play. It’s all about chasing carrots. New, yummy, shiny carrots, each available for a limited time and each requiring a specific list of hoops to jump through before getting the pat on the head and your special dog treat!

- I think there’s some actual studies saying that external rewards are a great way to make any activity seem like work. It sure feels that way now that everything is presented in terms of external rewards. Kill centaur and it drops item for reward. Kill ten centaurs and you complete quest for rewards. Complete five quests and you get daily for another external reward. Complete dailies for achievement points and get rewarded at regular intervals. It’s like the player is treated like some junkie for constant gratification.

I’m an old school gamer. There was a time when games didn’t feature any external rewards. The game presented the player a challenge, which the player could choose to overcome. If the challenge was well-made the player would naturally feel rewarded at the end.

The problem is this only works with certain types of people…people like me for example. But there aren’t enough of us alone to make games that way, because people want to be rewarded for their effort in some sort of tangible way. Because of the cost of game production, more people have to be brought into the fold.

That’s the problem in a nutshell.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it costs more to produce big titles, that cost has to be funded, no matter who cares about it and who doesn’t.

But the other problem is, I find the game fun. You obviously don’t, and that’s quite sad, but it’s not like because there’s a payment model others don’t find it fun. There seem to be a lot of people playing this game and having fun.

A payment model and a game aren’t mutually exclusive. If people weren’t having fun they wouldn’t pay.

Yah, it’s the new generation of mmo players who find changing background color of their screen so fun that they pay 5€ for it. Old schoolers like me and ipan are pretty much screwed, though I guess there is always Eve online and Star Citizen looks promising so far.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m an old time gamer too. I started gaming on computers back in 1983 and I do agree that something got lost in the genre along the way.

But that doesn’t mean that everyone who likes what’s out there now is wrong for liking something. There are things going on today that couldn’t have happened ten years ago. Certainly not to the same degree.

I don’t remember too many MMOs ten years ago that let you move and cast at the same time for example. The reason was intentional. Same with global cool downs. The idea was to reduce server calls. That’s no longer necessary and I’m not sorry to see it go.

There are older players who are able to adapt to the new environment. I’m one of them.

Sirendor.1394:

Tao.5096:

Sirendor.1394:

If one crappy video is all the proof you’re going to give me that ESO is kitten, I can give you 20 that say the same about GW2… it’s subjective and deceiving.

clips are trailers of something that look amazing on trailer, and makes you puke when you already have it.

Isn’t that a common thing, since always?

Of course, and that was the point I was trying to make. ESO will most likely be a very classy game, despite anyone trying to show it otherwise.

When I first played the Guild Wars 2 beta, it was a lot of fun. It wasn’t perfect. It had its bugs. But I enjoyed it. I looked forward to the game.

ESO is going to be anything but classy. Hiding an entire profession behind a paywall in a subscription game? Not classy. And that’s before launch. Imagine what it’ll look like a year down the road. Maybe it’ll be as classy as SWToR? lol

I played the game, the game isn’t fun. It’s meh. It’s extremely meh. I know from other posts that you’re feeling disenfranchised by Guild Wars 2 and that you’re not having fun here. I get that completely.

But that won’t do anything to make ESO a fun game. That game is going to go down faster than the Titanic. It’s not really a bad game. It’s just dull.

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it costs more to produce big titles, that cost has to be funded, no matter who cares about it and who doesn’t.

But the other problem is, I find the game fun. You obviously don’t, and that’s quite sad, but it’s not like because there’s a payment model others don’t find it fun. There seem to be a lot of people playing this game and having fun.

A payment model and a game aren’t mutually exclusive. If people weren’t having fun they wouldn’t pay.

I was really REALLY looking forward to ESO…until I played it in the last two betas. I thought that might be my next big MMO. Not a chance in hell. I’d go back to Lotro before doing that and I can’t stand Lotro. lol

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

OP you only really lost progress on a single character, since you only have to get a single character to 50, because Fractal levels are now account bound. If you’re running Fractals anyway, it seems a very small setback, one that would take a couple of weeks to get back to (during which time you’d actually be doing new content).

I had the same problem with some drops I wanted in Guild Wars 1, ergo this is not the only game it happens it. It’s also happened in other games…in fact, most MMOs have some rare drops that you have to get ultra lucky to get.

Guild up. Plenty of decent casual guilds out there. Depending on pugs is like inviting complete strangers to hang out with you. A good guild will teach you the ups and downs of the game, and help you get done the stuff you need to do.

There is an active reddit Guild for Guild Wars 1 that still does stuff.

Nat.4029:

It’s a mixed bag of emotions for me concerning Guild Wars 2. All of us GW1 vets fell victim to the hype. “How could GW2 possibly fail our expectations???” I like Guild Wars 2 a lot. I’ve had a lot of fun playing. Looking at the current state of the game though, I ask myself, “Will I play this game for 4000+ hours like I did GW1?” The answer is, no. Not until something new and refreshingly permanent is added to the game. What this game sorely needs is the return of the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. Along with their return, would be a plethora of end-game content. Legendary armor sets could be obtained by playing these areas. Was getting Obsidian armor a grind in GW1? Most certainly. The difference is, that it was a FUN grind. (in my opinion anyway) I had some of the most fun I’ve ever had gaming, when entering the FoW and UW and spending hours there on weekends. This is what GW2 needs.

Sorry to disagree but “all us Guild Wars 1 vets” didn’t fall victim to hype. I bet I have as many hours in Guild Wars 1 as you do, and I’ve played over 5000 hours of Guild Wars 2. I didn’t fall victim to hype.

You make it sound like most people who played Guild Wars 1 enjoyed FoW and UW, but I’m thinking that that’s not the case. I don’t know any statistic that shows it. In fact, I bet most GW 1 players barely ever set foot in those places. I know I didn’t do them much and didn’t enjoy them when I did.

This is like the raiding community in most games thinking most people love raiding. It’s not true.

I played Guild Wars 1 for a ridiculous amount of time and I see Guild Wars 2 as an improvement in most (but not all) ways.

I’m really enjoying Lion’s Arch right now and I enjoyed the Marionette fight before it. In general I think the Living Story is far better than it was in the beginning. There’s a lot of good stuff in this game to talk about.

But forums will always be filled with complaints, because saying that needs to be fixed is how the game moves forward.

OP everything you said it 100% right. That’s because it’s your opinion and opinions can’t be wrong.

I disagree with most of it and it’s still 100% right.

We all have to find games we enjoy playing. If this isn’t one for you, then it’s not one for you. Anet has surely made some mistakes along the way, but to me, the living story has gotten better, not worse. I enjoy it more than I did when it started. It’s starting to become something I look forward to.

And if that doesn’t catch your fancy, you’re going to have to find another game, because this is how Anet decided to move forward.

But the same thing happened in Guild Wars 1. Changes came into the game and tons of people left, particularly when heroes were introduced an suddenly you could solo everything. That was a game breaker for a lot of people.

Anet has always made changes to their games. And people have always left because of them.

Hopeless.5403:

Steam has “free to play” weekends on certain games when they have special prices or promotions. I don’t think Gw2 needs this but I do recommend it selling via Steam.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t on steam.

Not sure it’s the best game ever. It’s certainly a great value for price, though.

yorick.1305:

Legendary Defender Of Ascalon. I think some people are still trying to get that one done. I got 31 or 32 completed, but never got close to this classic (grinder).

But the point is it wasn’t hard to get. It just took mindless dedication once per day. And today, with dailies in Pre, you don’t even need to death level to get it.

There were definitely heterosexual relationships in the personal stories. A couple I can think of off the top of my head. In any event, I’m not even sure why it matters.

Yep, Survivor in Guild Wars 1 was a tough title to get. It took an entire weekend in a solo dungeon. And no one ever got run through dungeons in Guild Wars 1.

I think vanquisher was the only title worth something in that game. The rest of them could be run pretty easily or where massively grindy, or were unnecessarily punishing.

The mapping title comes to mind. Scraping every corner of every map to unfog a single tiny piece….that was just horrible.

wolfpaq.7354:

I would love for weeklies to replace dailies. Not everyone can play every day. We have lives.

Don’t do anything fancy. Just multiply the rewards x7 and tasks x7 (gather 140 items instead of 20 items, 7 dgns instead of 1 dgn, ect) and change the duration from 24 hrs to 168 hrs. It would drastically improve my enjoyment of the game, and most other life livers out there I’d imagine.

This would allow you to open up the dailys to have all possible ones available. This would truly allow us to play the game how we like.

Weeklies would never replace dailies. It won’t happen. You might get a weekly in addition to dailies, but never as a replacement.

Dailies weren’t introduced for your benefit. They were introduced to keep people logging into the game every single day. A weekly would completely defeat the purpose they were introduced for.

According to patch notes, glory boosters were removed from black lion chests in the last patch.

Who’s saying Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have vertical progression? That’s never been in question. Hell it had vertical progression at launch even.

The real issue isn’t vertical progression or not for most people. The real issue is the time and expense involved in getting BIS gear (and rightly so IMO).

Don’t let the naysayers get you down. I’ve been playing since launch and the game is awesome. I may not like everything or agree with every design decision made by the devs, but that’s true for every game I’ve played. I’ve played lots of other MMOs and this is by far my favorite.

There are definitely a few places that the respawn timer is off in this game…but they’re relatively few and far between. This isn’t a universal problem. It’s a problem limited to a few out of the way places.

If you won’t team up with someone (for whatever reason) then you’re stuck doing it as best you can in those few areas.

I’ve yet to find an area in this game on any profession that I can’t solo, even with this “problem”.

cesmode.4257:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

How about we have now ascended gear you have to grind for weeks for tiny stat boosts.

PvE is more or less the same with some more zerg.

PvP is the same old same old.

So, the game’s PvE is still nonexistant, and the PvP still unbalanced?

There is something called living story that is updated every 2 weeks with a fresh set of new achievements to grind out via zerg content. The content itself is shally and vastly unappealing to many, although theres a lot of people that for whatever reason think it is quality. All I see are 10-15 achievements every week to grind out in one or two zones that arenanet designates. I.E. We are funneled like cattle into these zones and out of the open world in order to acquire more achievement points(since they matter to people now) and a shiny backpiece or something.

Personally, Id much rather arenanet abandon the living story and focus on making all zones appealing to play in at any time. No matter the server I am on, or guesting on, most zones are empty. Someone that would quote me here and say “well not on my server”..is just naive.

Maybe the people who “for whatever reason” think it’s quality because it is. Seems to me you’re setting yourself and those like you up as the ultimate arbiter of what’s good and what’s bad. Some people might find that offensive.

Strayhand.8216:

Nage.1520:

Strayhand.8216:

“Just last time I checked they had subscriptions, don’t like me no subscriptions (I guess GW2 has forever ruined me).”

Taking an example from this topic, this is like saying McDonalds spoiled you, and now you are not gonna pay for normal food anymore. How exactly did GW2 spoil you if you don’t find it fun…?

I guess you missed the part where some people find this game not only fun, but more fun than other existing MMOs, subscription or no subscription.

No, in fact I agree with that. Even though I didn’t log in for a while, I wouldn’t even consider logging into another currently running MMO (I played WoW for 5 years). But I forgot to mention that my comment wasn’t really meant to the poster I quoted from, but in general to the MMO community. Nowadays people complain about MMOs having a sub fee because GW2 “spoiled them”, but on the other hand they complain about GW2 not having content. I guess people want it all for free.

Right but my point is, for some of us, Guild Wars 2 gives us content. It’s not content that everyone loves universally but judging from the number of people who liked the Marionettte and Lion’s Arch, it’s not just like three guys sitting in their mom’s basement. This is popular content. That’s right content. People play and enjoy it.

Some people hate it. It’s too zergy, not not challenging enough or whatever. But a lot of people like it too. Many have said that they’ve never seen this much content in any game. I’m inclined to agree with that.

killcannon.2576:

Nage.1520:

Strayhand.8216:

“Just last time I checked they had subscriptions, don’t like me no subscriptions (I guess GW2 has forever ruined me).”

Taking an example from this topic, this is like saying McDonalds spoiled you, and now you are not gonna pay for normal food anymore. How exactly did GW2 spoil you if you don’t find it fun…?

I guess you missed the part where some people find this game not only fun, but more fun than other existing MMOs, subscription or no subscription.

I have yet to see anyone who would pay to play GW2 as a subscription game.

One of the top reasons given by players who like this game has consistently been that it is buy to play.

Rather telling.

You must have skipped posts. In previous posts I have seen several people who would play Guild Wars 2 as a subscription game. They weren’t the majority of posters, but that doesn’t surprise me.

Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO at this point I’d consider subscribing to. It doesn’t mean I would or I wouldn’t…but I’m guessing I would. Never really know until it happens.

But others have definitely said they would pay a sub in other threads on this very forum.

Strayhand.8216:

“Just last time I checked they had subscriptions, don’t like me no subscriptions (I guess GW2 has forever ruined me).”

Taking an example from this topic, this is like saying McDonalds spoiled you, and now you are not gonna pay for normal food anymore. How exactly did GW2 spoil you if you don’t find it fun…?

I guess you missed the part where some people find this game not only fun, but more fun than other existing MMOs, subscription or no subscription.

Kill Momma.6127:

I loved GW1 and thought GW2 would be great to add. Played since launch for a year and quickly became part of the largest guilds on GW2. Then they decided to start the living story which I couldn’t keep up with because I teach. I found that if I couldn’t keep up with the living story then I couldn’t stay with the guildies. I was quickly thrown out for not participating and once my friends were gone I lost faith in this game. I can’t blame it soley on the game, but it quickly became zerg and grind for nothing by yourself. Haven’t touched the game since then…. Have thought of trying to get back into it, but will never finish a single living story update and thats what keeps me from joining back in.

Casual guilds for the win. My friends (and no one in our guild) would have treated you that way. That’s just wrong.

Finding the right guild for your play style is half the enjoyment of any MMO. I suggest you were in the wrong guild, which sucks. But if you find the right one, you could end up really enjoying yourself.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

It’s funny because I have to grind less in WoW then I do here and after 6 years with that game I still have more to do than I ever did here.

If you ask people why you should play GW2, most will say that “it’s pretty” or “no sub”. Not very compelling.

Oh you “have to” grind here? How so?

TankinJankins.3276:

Nage.1520:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

How about we have now ascended gear you have to grind for weeks for tiny stat boosts.

PvE is more or less the same with some more zerg.

PvP is the same old same old.

So, the game’s PvE is still nonexistant, and the PvP still unbalanced?

We have two giant zerg raids in the open world, which probably equals ANets idea of endgame (rolleyes) and bi-weekly updates for what ANet thinks is a story (can’t roll my eyes that fast).

PvP is the same old just with more warrior.

I think I’d rather tear my toenails out than to be forced to play this game, how do you manage?

By having fun. That’s what some of us do. It’s quite clear, to me anyway, that fun is different for different people. You don’t find this game fun, and I don’t find World of Warcrap fun.

That’s sort of what makes the world go round.

I don’t find CURRENT wow fun at all, and nobody should.

But people do. That’s sorta the point. I’ve been playing this game since day 1 beta and STILL find it fun. But it’s obviously not to your taste…totally cool with me. It’s why there are different games. For different tastes.

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

How about we have now ascended gear you have to grind for weeks for tiny stat boosts.

PvE is more or less the same with some more zerg.

PvP is the same old same old.

So, the game’s PvE is still nonexistant, and the PvP still unbalanced?

We have two giant zerg raids in the open world, which probably equals ANets idea of endgame (rolleyes) and bi-weekly updates for what ANet thinks is a story (can’t roll my eyes that fast).

PvP is the same old just with more warrior.

I think I’d rather tear my toenails out than to be forced to play this game, how do you manage?

By having fun. That’s what some of us do. It’s quite clear, to me anyway, that fun is different for different people. You don’t find this game fun, and I don’t find World of Warcrap fun.

That’s sort of what makes the world go round.