Guild Wars 2

If someone could make this an app on a webpage, then we would have something … I would like to run my own setups for theoretical damage.

Yes, and then you said something about NOT-damage (even though I highlighted damage for you) stats in your comparison. No, I’m not the crazy one here … You’re trying to tell me that 2 apples and an orange is better than 1 apple and 2 oranges. I’m shaking my head.

bigmonto.4215:

It is pretty clear that the damage gained from a 6% buff DOES NOT makes up for damage lost when converting of crit damage to ferocity on Celestial.

It’s not supposed to be … celestial is an armor set that boosts your baseline stats. That’s why it’s nonsense to complain about Anet changing celestial to be more inline with what it’s meant to be. Comparing some offensive loss of stats to a defensive gain is a self-serving argument.

I didn’t miss any math or that thread (and that thread is a colossal fail because it doesn’t make the relevant comparison, see below). Nothing I said changes.

1. The 6% stat buff is to compensate for the crit damage downgrade
2. Celestial will not be ‘completely crap at everything’
3. It remains to be seen if 6% is an underbuff. I play my GW2 ingame, not on pencil and paper.

The only real math needed is if the damage gained from a 6% buff makes up for damage lost when converting of crit damage to ferocity on Celestial. THis is the only comparison that tells you if the 6% is an underbuff.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, I repeat for the 3rd (4th?) time in this thread, I do not run champ trains, and yet this nerf still looks to be hurting my play style. If they nerf events and champ bags (not just champ trains), then what activities are they going to replace them with? Trying to nudge players towards other existing play styles is not a sufficient answer. If they want players to stop doing the existing content then they’ll need to add a lot fo new content.

1. I don’t get how content that changes affects your playstyle if you don’t do that content. Explain.
2. They don’t need to replace champ farming with activities because champ farming wasn’t an intended activity from Anet to begin with.
3. Why is nudging players towards other existing, supported content not sufficient to replace champ farming? It was good enough before champ farming existed, yet somehow it’s not sufficient now? Explain.

The reality is that the only thing Anet has said is that raw Gold drops are being nerfed on champ kills. If someone wants to continue to kill champs for the not-gold stuff (where the real value is anyways), they will still do it.

1. They are not useless. They have a purpose and can be used for that purpose until mid April and we’ve been duly warned about the change … don’t be a fool and hold on to them thinking you MIGHT get something for them after the patch.
2. They never had ‘worth’ because you got them with the intention to use them, not sell them.

Ohoni.6057:

I would imagine one of the best ways is to farm mats used in ascended item crafting but if more players do that then the amount of gold from that will decrease.

I harvest nodes when they are around, but running around with a mining pick is not the type of core game experience that interests me. I do have about 50 stacks of Bloodstone Dust and 50 stacks of Dragonite Ore lying around, but so far these resources are mostly useless because you can’t convert them into anything useful without a ton of other expensive resources.

Hence the “let’s nerf champ trains so people go out and do other stuff” decision from Anet. Frankly, this is a good change.

bigmonto.4215:

Don’t bother with Celestials. They are nerfing the crit dam value on it, instead giving every stat a 6% boost. It changed from a balanced set that is geared towards power based burst (perfect for Guardian) to a set that is completely crap at everything.

6% boost is a under-buff. Since Guardians cannot utilize conditional dam as well, we basically have 1 stat wasted. You are better off with a combination of Solider and Cleric for survival.

Let fix this post a bit; it’s full of misinformation:

1. The crit damage is being changed on ALL gear that has crit damage in the same manner. Celestial is getting hit particularly hard by the ferocity implementation and that’s why it’s getting 6% stats increase.

2. It’s a hard sell to convince someone that a family of gear that is balanced now will be completely crap at everything AFTER it gets a 6% stat increase.

3. I don’t get how 6% increase is an underbuff. It’s a safe bet to assume that celestial will be getting ferocity at a value equal to the rest of the stats on celestial so it’s not losing it’s damage contribution from crit damage completely … If anything, it’s probably a wash or better, but that’s speculation unless someone does the math.

Dirame.8521:

@Obtena

Does that mean I can’t ask what you guys think is wrong? I mean really, if I didn’t ask, this thread would just be a bunch of people saying things are bad without actually saying why.

By all means, and you were told so I think there shouldn’t be any more debate on it. I think the problem is that the whole question of SW’s has belaboured on these forums so badly, that anyone who isn’t aware of what the multitude of problems with SWs are seems like a troll.

They might go up after the crash. I’m not really sure why they would though. The biggest consumers would be what? Bifrost? It’s going to be a speculator’s or gamblers plaything.

Dirame.8521:

Well, the only time I’ve used SWs is in my Guardian burst build to get the 3 second KD. Allows you to set up a nice burst combo. In that situation, I don’t need to have it up until I’m ready to let it rip. So really, I rarely notice anything majorly wrong apart from the weapon missing when I’m within range of the target and the weapon isn’t.

Well, their you go … I wouldn’t say that experience gives a sufficient exposure to what is wrong with SW’s.

Dirame.8521:

What’s wrong with Spirit Weapons? They are the most functional of the Ai skills in the game and the only i can see wrong with them is that have a chance of getting AoE’d?

I don’t think having the most functional AI skills ingame (not even sure that’s true) is a defining factor in what makes SW’s good or not.

I think there are few things wrong with them:

1. They have the worst deficiencies of both a skill and a pet (a leashed pet that doesn’t go more than melee weapon range on top of that)
2. Are they worth a skill slot?
3. The traits to buff them (arguably mediocre) are all over the traitlines

If the only thing you see wrong with SW’s is they can be damaged with AoE, I don’t think you’ve given them enough of a chance to suck hard enough.

LAWL at people suggesting bifrost dyes will cost alot … has anyone actually taken the time to figure out how many unid’s they are going to get on patch day? TO think about how many unid dyes others might have? How many that might mean get dumped on patch day? I didn’t think so.

A lesson in how easy it is to take people’s money … and they give it happily. Why would we want to restrict that? Everyone wins.

I would rather they do it right than do it rushed. Frankly, I would rather they never touch them again if they have no clue how to make them better. Something as bad as these needs to be reworked from it’s foundation. That’s not one or two patches. I bet that’s going to take over a year to implement …. and they haven’t started.

Even with the added time it would take to get the quartz, it’s still better to be 100% certain on your ascended gear by testing your build using exotics. I doubt you have the frags/stones/ore to make the vision crystals in that 30 days, along with the 15 damask bolts or the crafting at level 500 if you are just returning. Quartz will not likely be your bottleneck here.

Amins.3710:

Obtena.7952:

That’s what I think … being in a good spot +doesn’t mean the class should stagnate in mediocrity while updates continue to finesse+ the other classes to ‘good places’ too.

WHA?! There it is!

Anet’s #1 Supporter saying it how it really is!

Never thought I’d see the day… I almost started to believe you had submitted an Application for Employment and were trying ot boost your “Team Anet” Rank…

Now they ~have~ to fix the guardian.

I support things Anet does when I agree with them. I’m not just a fanboi like you would like to think. I think they do a good job maintaining the concept of the profession. I don’t think they do a good job evolving it to incorporate the deficient aspects of it. We don’t need an upgrade to turn us into warriors; we are in a good place. We need some side-grades to incorporate and make the other conceptual features of the class effective; we are in a stagnant place.

You don’t ‘try out’ ascended gear. You marry it, it takes your money and you die buried wearing it. i.e., you better be REALLY sure it’s the armor you want to use before you craft it.

If you just want to dabble and try stuff, don’t go farther than exotic.

Charak.9761:

Why you would run anything other than travelers is beyond me…

sure maybe soldier for wvw, but travelers >> every rune

Maybe you should be an Anet developer … making away every rune family irrelevant but one is the next step to telling us how to play after making stacking our obvious choice.

Painbow.6059:

Obtena.7952:

Painbow.6059:

Why don’t people just accept the fact that healing isn’t needed so full zerker is better.

Same reason that why people don’t just accept the fact that this game is designed to allow people to play how they want and succeed.

The range on this new trait is a joke. Why does it need a range at all? Just give all team members an Aegis.

You can succeed using clerics gear if you don’t mind being a waste of space

Exactly my point … there IS no competitive aspect to this game in PVE, (exception, hihg level fractals). I can use the WORST stats for an encounter and succeed. Therefore, NOTHING in the game design prevents people from doing it, so why would they limit themselves to appease the desire of other players at the expense of their own? That’s simply not realistic to expect people to align to what other people want them to do unless there is real in-game features that force them too.

Not every part of the community can be served all the time, but the infinite pick with sprocket bonus serves a significant part of the community and since it’s implemented by the originator of the game, likely to serve the part of the community they want to target inline with the philosophy of the game.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I’m not saying the ferocity change as a whole has killed my build, but rather, how it changes my gear in particular.

But that’s the point … the change is absolute but the real impact is relative. There should be no change to your gear if you understand what this change means for all gear. Zerkers will still be top damage; it’s why you choose it and that reasoning is still valid.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

As for my concerns about actual build variety, they still stand, because rather than buffing weaker build or weapon options, Anet is instead focusing on buffing already popular play styles (like guardian bunker builds), thus causing what I see to be a bottleneck as far as build play variety goes. Because of the nerf to crit damage, sword guardians (as an example) will look even less desirable now, because the sword is purely a damage based weapon and damage as a whole is being nerfed, while the greatsword, on the other hand, still offers enough support and sustainability, to remain viable despite the damage nerfs.

That concern always existed, even prior to this incoming patch. It’s not related to a loss of crit damage because again, it’s relative; all weapons will have an equal decrease in damage because of ferocity implementation.

I just can’t understand where you are coming from. Because the ferocity change is a general decrease in damage for gear with crit damage stat, nothing really significant happens. The damage output gaps close for the various gear families but the rank between those families are really unlikely to change. No reason to rethink your gear at all.

Painbow.6059:

Why don’t people just accept the fact that healing isn’t needed so full zerker is better.

Same reason that why people don’t just accept the fact that this game is designed to allow people to play how they want and succeed.

The range on this new trait is a joke. Why does it need a range at all? Just give all team members an Aegis.

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

Well, i could argue that i have alot of sprocket that i bought a few weeks ago and wouldnt mind the prize to rise.

The price did rise from where it was a few weeks ago. I wouldn’t get upset if sprockets went up either. I’m not really sure where you are going with your argument.

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

I’m not sure what 4 runes you are referring to but all rune sets are getting revamped to make stacking the easy choice. I don’t need to stop relating the problem to intelligence because the whole premise that Anet states to make this change is to make it easier.

You’re right though. I can wait until mid April to complain this. If the rest of the runes follow suit from just the handful they gave examples of, I don’t think I will be alone.

I don’t think it’s end of the world but I don’t see a reason to placate the lowest common denominator either. Perhaps you don’t mind being told how to play because you can’t handle the stress of making gearing choices but if that’s the case, the change won’t incentive you to stack runes anyways.

This isn’t the same as bugged PoV. It’s a change that assumes we are all idiots because runes are so complex and we need Big Daddy Anet to hold our hand and tell us what to do.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

However, with the upcoming changes to guardians and crit damage as a whole, my build, especially with my current gear load out, will pretty much be rendered obsolete while bunker builds, which already seem to be a staple among guardians, are focused on even more by the devs, to the point where I feel like we’re being bottlenecked into using them in the same way eles are bottlenecked into going for water, arcane builds.

In addition to that, guardian support builds are becoming increasingly underwhelming compared to the support other classes will be able to offer after the new patch is released – in particular engineers, elementalists and warriors – and it’s really killing my desire to play it as a main.

I have to disagree:

On your obsolete build: The ferocity change will not impact your builds as much as you think. The added traits do not change the effectiveness of your current builds. I think you’re worried but with little reason.

Other class support: Guardian as a class will still be one of the most desired for teaming. ‘Sharing’ support roles with other classes not only means everyone has more access to roles (good for the game in general) but that YOU can also be supported by THEM more often.

While some of the specifics you mention might be relevant concerns, they aren’t related to the upcoming patch.

Killface.1896:

This model they are using keep the player base big,pay to win games usually dont last long

Good thing that isn’t GW2.

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

Dynnen.6405:

WoW, SWTOR, and GW2 are in the exact same category. They are ‘theme park’ MMOs.

Maybe the same category, but completely different philosophy on how they service players in the endgame. Category has little to do with how competitive the endgame is.

Simply put, the threshold for being successful in GW2 is so low, you can play how you want. That’s not true for SWTOR and from what I have heard, also WoW. GW2 attracts players that don’t want to be gear gated. It attracts players that want to play with each other, regardless of level. It doesn’t attract players that put others into categories of good and bad. There is a reason for that.

That’s why people should care about everything outside of the meta build, even people that hate non-meta gameplay. The success of the game depends on it.

More on topic, a bleed on sword auto … we still wouldn’t have competitive gear to support such a weapon.

Dynnen.6405:

Alas you are right. Anet is trying to get more casual players, why I don’t know.

I can only speculate that it’s because casuals are the market they want to appeal to because it’s a market that’s not well catered too with the current offerings from other MMO’s.

When companies appeal to an unserved market, it’s an easy win for them. That’s why I don’t see anything rude about people playing how they want in a game that is DESIGNED to allow people to succeed playing how they want.

If I played that way in WoW or SWTOR, I would be a pariah. Here, doing that means you can fit in and have fun and still succeed. No amount of preaching about casuals is going to change the fundamental design of the game.

xFireize.6318:

If they intended everything can be mix n match’d, why bother making the stack effect bonuses at all? If they did intend it, every rune would be similar to Rune of Divinity, where the 6 effect bonuses are equal. That rune is unique because it has non min-maxing attributes.

Not necessarily. By making stacking bonuses, you give non-halfwits the ability to choose if they want those stacking bonuses or mix/matching …. like what happens now. I think the boost to the higher tiers of runes was a good move because the stacking really wasn’t comparing to mixing. ON the other hand, nerfing the stacking bonus would simply relegate mixing to ’don’t mix unless you suck’ status.

From what I can see, how the runes are being dumbed down so the choice becomes obvious insults everyone’s intelligence.

Lots of people care about non-competitive PVE because they don’t play to compete in PVE, probably because reward is not dependent on being competitive in most PVE content. It’s a relevant approach to playing and its the audience that Anet is appealing to with this game.

So who cares? Anet and players do. We get you don’t like it. You don’t get that it doesn’t matter.

If you decide to forgo a ‘competitive’ build, burning is fine and you can do that in certain settings. People already do that in PUGs or friendly teaming. Of course, people pushing in zerker only in PVE can simply exclude themselves from any condition build discussions to begin with so if you are condition in PVE, you really don’t care about minmax/optimized damage.

My biggest challenge with burning isn’t the fact it’s the only condition we get or it’s damage is bad. Again, non-competitively, those things don’t matter. My key issues are:

1. Gearing is subpar (no power primary condition damage, no Condition damage primary ascneded trinkets)
2. You only get damage

Let’s pretend we get weapon X that has one or two more conditions to play with, what gear are you going to use to take advantage of this? If you only get damage for burning (in contrast, torment has extra detrimental effects for movement), what is the incentive over just a better damage build?

If runes aren’t supposed to be mixed and matched … why does the rune concept have a design that allows mixing and matching? Assuming that runes shouldn’t be mixed and matched is a VERY poor assumption. The game design ENCOURAGES it.

I also think Anet’s reasoning ‘to make it easy’ is silly as well. Were runes that hard to figure out? I didn’t think so. I’m pleased they see the issue with the poor scaling for using all 6 runes. I am NOT pleased that they felt it necessary to also nerf some of the level 2/4 effects to drive players towards easier choices. I’m a big boy. If I can figure out runes and get some cool effects by mixing; I shouldn’t be penalized for it because some halfwit can’t figure out runes.

ON topic, Boon duration buffs are currently silly. Anet is pretty keen on making it very difficult to have 100% uptimes on certain effects (which is why I anticipate a nerf to hammer #1 at some point).

Tken.1986:

I fear that gold to gem system will slowly ruin the game.

Then you don’t understand how the gold to gem system helps the WHOLE playerbase as a deflationary measure.

I am very pleased that Anet has decided to find a way to remove HUGE volumes of gold from the system by allowing players to buy gems with it. I’m also pleased with gemstore because it means I don’t have to pay a monthly sub. Each group of people is important for different reasons. Anyone that says otherwise needs to educate themselves.

While I’m biased towards the people that pay RL money for gems, this game would be unplayable in a few years if the gold -> gem people didn’t exist either. Neither is more important than the other, just different.

I don’t mind but … it would be nice to get more build diversity. More to the point, I don’t see why we DON’T have a more competitive one.

Pie Flavor.1647:

the fallacy everyone is falling into is that somehow you bought the pickaxe only for sprockets, and hence are comparing the price of 1000 gems to the price of 50000 sprockets

That’s why I bought it … I already had infinite picks. If you bought it for sprockets AND infinite picks, the price is comparable to the price of the sprockets + the price of finite picks. Either way, the gem to cost comparison is still very similar.

Funny that no one QQ’s about the ‘p2w’ for infinite picks.

BTW, all the criers can thank me and everyone else that bought this pick from keeping sprocket prices from going through the roof.

Don’t worry, suggestions to remove the pick are shortsighted. Legal or not, Anet would have a PR disaster if they removed the pic. People expect value for money and Anet is a business that understands that. Simple deleting the pick would not meet that expectation.

BTW, where do sprockets come from if you don’t have picks? How much would you be willing to pay for a sprocket? People better be careful of the tremendous lack of thought put into a suggestion like that.

The new traits really don’t move Guardian condition damage builds into a different space so if you aren’t finding use for them now, you likely won’t find a use for them once they are changed. It’s a nice boost for someone who farms trash solo because sustain is not necessary and stacking damage effects is the best approach (at least I think so).

So many things are going to change that it’s hard to predict how useful this will be but I think the biggest barrier to burning builds for Guardian is the lack of a Power primary/Condition Damage secondary armor and that’s not changing next patch anyways.

Doomdesire.9365:

I thought that this was a variety update to include more builds so we don’t get bored, not a balance update? So then why use the phrase “Guardians are in a good spot” as an excuse not to update the class? We want more variety in builds too…

That’s what I think … being in a good spot doesn’t mean the class should stagnate in mediocrity while updates continue to finesse the other classes to ‘good places’ too.

To give the devs a bit of credit, I don’t think all the traits are as bad as people make out but they will certainly be difficult to use in the current mindset of Guardian players.

The flaw with all this isn’t that any of those are particularly bad, it’s that for many builds, going 30 in any line is simply not too appealing. Even our favourite DPS meta builds don’t hit 30 and I don’t think from what I see here, that’s going to change.

I can definitely see where a few of these would be pretty cool, especially if people don’t mind moving away from meta.

Zeal: I like it, but that’s because I’m weird and have a soft spot for burning builds. It actually makes burning on Guardians good (because I will hit over 1K per tick) and the other traits in Zeal are good. Trash burning PVE build INC (finally). Unfortunately, I don’t see it getting used beyond some solo PVE.

Radiance – WTF? A synergy between condition damage and retal? I guess I can see it conceptually but … the scaling on this better be absolutely amazing.

Valour – The 30 is cool but I’m still struggling to find a place for the other 25 points in my builds.

Honour – The least thoughtful and exciting. I really don’t feel we need more HP. This will fall into the bin with AH as ‘training wheels’ trait.

Virtue – I cried a bit … they ALMOST addressed one of my complaints. Here is a virtue that improves the passive effect … except it’s a 30 and there is STILL no other benefit to passive virtues from the stats in the line. I think this shall go unnoticed.

BTW< has anyone tried to see if any of these ideas were brought about from player suggestions?

Something that let’s burning crit.

I’m not going to speculate because if this is any indication, my expectations for something creative and worthwhile are much too high. I won’t slam 3K HP because there’s ALOT of QQ about low HP (mostly from noobs) but … if I’ve already invested 30 trait points into Honour, didn’t I already get 300 vitality from that? Do we really need 300 more? Granted, I think people overhype the other GM traits in this line but this seems to just serve a small majority of struggling players. Do we need or want traits that dumbs down the class, especially as a GM trait?

The argument about the definition of P2W is simply semantics. The reality is that these items are available to everyone; they allow you to WIN just as much as ascended armor wears ‘WIN’ over exotic ones.

The precedent argument is not relevant. You can make that argument about anything new to fallaciously claim it’s a ‘bad’ thing. My problem with this argument is that no one has presented an argument that says WHY setting this precedent is a bad thing.

The only argument I feel for is the people that feel cheated because they bought other picks previously for the same price. That was me for a very short time. I don’t think anyone anticipated such a nice upgrade so I can see why they feel this way but then you suck it up, buy one and reap the rewards. I hope you guys come out again when upgraded harvesting tools come around again .. I can’t say I mind this bonus.

Vol.7601:

So, all you watchwork defenders who pointed out that the pick isn’t OP because of the ‘cheap’ sprockets..

Price of sprockets has jumped 100% overnight.

I guess it’s not OP now to have sprockets sell at +1.2s now?

If the drop rate was 300% instead of 30%, you might have a point. Besides, it’s easy to defend … everyone could buy one. The sprockets are up because of anticipated demand once living world was over. If more people owned the pick, sprockets wouldn’t be over 1s. Of course, it’s not the lack of picks making sprockets spike in price … it’s speculators. Frankly, this was an easy one to call.

^^ KABLAMO … people tend to forget this and it’s extremely significant in this discuission.

Every player has access to gemstore items, regardless of how you want to pay for it. You can label it what you wish, but owning an item that anyone can purchase is not ‘winning’. It’s as much winning as the kid who gets the participation award for being last place in a race.

The debate regarding ‘precedent’ can be put to rest … the latest harvesting tool doesn’t give bonus mats (the spinny robot barrel thing). There is your Anet response. Of course, that doesn’t mean Anet won’t do it again … which is only more reason to be prepared to buy it if they do.

I have none … but I sure look great.