It can’t be more clear … If you want the performance of a Legendary and aren’t committed enough to make one, you can get an Ascended weapon faster at lower cost. Since the issue with Legendary/precursor is cost-related, problem is addressed through crafting Ascended. Whatever history you want to dig up is quite irrelevant. What matters is how the game works now.
Maybe if you can emphasize on the world unfairness, you can understand why people are complaining.
You’re being unrealistic here. The rewards are structured in a way that makes them fair because every single person has access to every activity in the game; almost completely independent of gear or skill as well. So really, even the most incompetent player can get anything they want if they make their goal and spent the time needed to achieve it. The only barrier to being rewarded in the game by doing whatever you want, how you want to …. is you. Their isn’t some game mechanic that stops you from taking advantage of these methods or earning gold while playing how you want. You’re simply not recognizing that earning whatever you want in this game is up to you and is a matter of time only.
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you make more profit “with less time”. That’s why. And you’ll just come back with some silly argument anyway.
You mean arguments like “entitlement, jealousy and unfairness” because that’s exactly how this statement comes across.
oh no, we are humans. And can’t have human basic behavior…
You can, but if your mature, you don’t use those negative feelings to justify having things your way.
you make more profit “with less time”. That’s why. And you’ll just come back with some silly argument anyway.
You mean arguments like “entitlement, jealousy and unfairness” because that’s exactly how this statement comes across.
There really isnt a variety of endgame goals/rewards in pve, and the best method for most of them is gold earning.
endgame to me doesnt necessarilly mean dungeons and raids, it means things for you to do as you reach player maturity.
As long as you can successfully complete endgame content (whatever you decide is interesting to YOU), then you have reached maturity. In no place in the game does that require a Legendary or for you to camp the TP. Therefore, TP Wars/Legendary grind doesn’t ruin ANYONE’S experience unless you LET it.
So i told you how i got my legendary/precursors, how did you get yours?
Not sure why you are attempting to pick me apart here. It’s not relevant to the thread/discussion. I got mine like everyone else. Playing the game how I want and I don’t play TP wars …
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You got a precursor drop or you play a ridiculous number of hours every week? Do you have a job?
Earning 1G per hour can be done easily … do the math on how long it would take you to get a precursor. If you feel that’s a ‘ridiculous’ number of hours, implying I would have to quit my job in order to earn this amount of money, then you aren’t even in qualified to have a discussion about owning a Legendary, much less qualified to complain about how TP-centric the endgame is.
Id say 1ooo hours for 1 part of a legendary is too much.
Also from your posts I gather you enjoy farming. While you could have saved 1g for 1000 hours, what is the actual case?
That’s a matter of opinion. Clearly a Legendary isn’t targeting casual players, even though I don’t feel it’s out of the casual players reach either if you make it a goal. That’s why Ascended weapons exist. It’s an out for people that don’t feel the time and effort getting a Legendary is worth it. And it’s a favourable one because the performance is the same.
The irony is that while you QQ about the TP, you post indicates you aren’t willing to farm the necessary gold/mats to make a Legendary either. Do you just want it mailed to you from Anet?
Do you really think endgame goals is not an integral part of game design? Especially in a game type based on replayability and long term play?
That’s why there is a large variety of endgame goals for you to pick from appropriate for your commitment to the game and choosing a lower commitment goal has a relatively insignificant impact on your performance. There is no argument against the TP to be made by casual players … it helps them if they set goals that are appropriate to them. It’s also why the game isn’t balanced around full endgame setups like many other fail MMO’s out there.
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I would try to find a way to get an edge on bunker builds … apply VoJ passively with high initial Cdamage and frequent hits; this makes cleansing capability much less useful and when they run out, you go to ACtive VoJ (I believe people significantly underestimate the ability to apply a high damage condition every few seconds) … you already have the correct weapons for that (unless you can find your skill level to use a Sword over Scepter) but I would dump the Balthazar for Undead runes to pull that off. I really don’t think the duration from Balthazar is giving you that much added value to the build since you have so many ways to apply your burning.
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I think Flame Legion would be really good, even if you aren’t a focused burning build. It takes advantage your burns and other people’s too.
The burn duration stats area little hard to take advantage of on Guardian because of the intervals you need to boost them for full effect. The choice of which set to choose is a little dependent on your build, where you want to use it, etc…
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You got a precursor drop or you play a ridiculous number of hours every week? Do you have a job?
Earning 1G per hour can be done easily … do the math on how long it would take you to get a precursor. If you feel that’s a ‘ridiculous’ number of hours, implying I would have to quit my job in order to earn this amount of money, then you aren’t even in qualified to have a discussion about owning a Legendary, much less qualified to complain about how TP-centric the endgame is.
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And that’s why this thread doesn’t make sense because I’m not TP baron and I have a legendary. Again, making money on the TP doesn’t require you to camp it for awesome flipping and great deals. Sell your goods to the highest bidder and collect your cash. The idea that the TP used in this minimal way turns it into ‘the center of the endgame’ is sensational nonsense. Furthermore, if you need money, TP isn’t likely the most efficient place for you to make it if you despise the TP this much. None of these anti-TP statement add up.
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You don’t need to camp TP for Gold to collect bling though … I mean if your complaint is that you can’t collect exotic bling by ONLY raiding and never using the TP, you have no business playing GW2. Its just not how it was ever intended to work and it wouldn’t ever work in that manner without completely revamping a whole new reward/trade system.
Let’s be honest, that’s just not going to happen at this point.
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The point the OP is trying to make, and I agree with, is that the TP is really at the center of the ‘end game’ for GW2.
TP is only the center of the end game if that’s what you enjoy doing with your gametime. It’s not an absolute truth applicable to everyone. It’s not the center of my endgame. I feel rewarded when playing and I have very respectable gear SETS for many characters … and no, I’m not a TP baron either.
SO either I don’t exist or the statements you just made are nonsense.
Not sure if anyone is paying attention but … craftable Ascended gear is Anet’s subtle way of dealing with the issue of Legendary/Precursor availability. No one can now claim such a classification of gear is necessary, even if your goal is a full endgame setup. That argument no longer holds weight. Legendaries are purely for the skin and if you want it, you pay.
I strongly disagree with this, for two very simple reasons:
- instant stat change when out of combat
- future insuranceLegendary weapons are still best in slot, and by a long shot. If anything, the fact they’re now account bound makes them even better since you can use them on multiple toons taking advantage of the in-built stat change capability.
That’s fair but I don’t think I’m too far off here. From a performance perspective, Ascended are the same as Legendary. For me, those things you list, numerous as they may be, are minor and don’t justify the value difference. Therefore, Ascended gear is a reasonable response to the Legendary/Precursor problem. In fact, its in significant favour to the players. Their is almost no compelling reason to want a Legendary, with exception for the minor advantages you mention. Competition to obtain will decrease in addition to everyone starting to get more of them.
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but if this game tends to get more like a korean/chinese mmo means game is being fixed!
based on?
I think that RNG killed the real MMO fun here, and the TP lets a select few work around that. Everyone wants shinies, with Legendaries being the ultimate shinies. What ruins the ‘fun’ in getting one is the RIDICULOUS RNG that was put in our way.
ONLY skill in the TP lets you EARN a legendary, and that is probably what brings the ire of everyone against the TP barrons. Take Charged Lodestones for example to craft one piece of a Legendary. The only way to get them is to spend countless hours killing sparks. There is no skill or fun there, just mind numbing grind. This pretty much forces everyone to buy them from the lucky and to come up with the 300 gold you need, the ‘best’ way is playing the TP. (Same argument applies to precursors but I think everyone agrees they where a monumental failure.)
Gold IS the most important thing in this game BECAUSE of RNG. That makes the TP the most important SKILL in the game, hence all the threads against it.
That’s not really fair or true … even if RNG drops were in ten’s of percent chances, you STILL wouldn’t get specific items you want or need often enough from it to avoid TP for the specific gear. This is the part people don’t understand .. TP actually enables people to obtain gear, regardless of the drop rates due to RNG.
Looking at a single precursor over the course of 1 hour is not representative of the pricing trend on precursors … ever.
Not sure if anyone is paying attention but … craftable Ascended gear is Anet’s subtle way of dealing with the issue of Legendary/Precursor availability. No one can now claim such a classification of gear is necessary, even if your goal is a full endgame setup. That argument no longer holds weight. Legendaries are purely for the skin and if you want it, you pay.
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I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?
Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.
The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.
Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.
It might be perfect there but TESO isn’t GW2 so that should in no way make anyone think a TP-less GW2 would be perfect like TESO. That kind of logic is not logic at all.
Oh people want a TP in TESO too, just look at the forums there. But no true MMO should have a trading post which makes face to face trading obsolete. It takes a major element out of any good MMO. But just because people are lazy and want something, doesnt mean its a good thing to have. Because humanity is just lazy in general and shouldnt always get whats most convenient and effective for them.
While I agree that not enabling direct trade between players is a deficiency, it’s not a NECESSARY element of a good MMO either. Think a little more and you might see why Anet has not enabled this (and it doesn’t have anything to do with laziness or convenience.)
I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?
Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.
The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.
Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.
It might be perfect there but TESO isn’t GW2 so that should in no way make anyone think a TP-less GW2 would be perfect like TESO. That kind of logic is not logic at all.
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^^ That’s a great story but it doesn’t change the fact that what people find rewarding in a game is based on the individual player and not based on some ranking of game elements. Therefore, it’s nonsense to claim TP kills the fun for people who find it rewarding to play aspects of the game that aren’t the TP.
To take that further, I don’t see any arguments that shows the TP kills the fun for people who actually do find it rewarding to play the TP. Really, the only people that don’t find it rewarding are the people that a) willingly and repeated subject themselves to it and lose money or b) jealous of others and associate a quality of equality in the game to justify their negative feelings about it. Either of those two group don’t have an unbiased assessment of the TP’s impact on the game.
Do yourself a little mind experiment .. what kills the game more … the TP or NO TP. What is your alternate to either option? Why is it better? That’s what is missing in all this QQ … someone actually stepping up to say “This is better than TP” instead of “TP is awful”.
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The burden of proof is on you to show this is factual information if your using it as your premise to why the TP is bad
I provided an example and some arguments why core aspects of mmo should be more important than economy in it …
That’s not really relevant to your claim that PVE isn’t more rewarding to people than the TP. Despite where you think the economy should rank with respect to other core aspects of the game, it doesn’t determine what is more rewarding to players.
I have provided my own evidence contrary to your claim … my own success in PVE vs. TP, showing that what is rewarding is a player-dependent consideration, not a general and absolute truth as you say it is. Therefore, your argument is based on suspect claims.
So again, if you’re claiming PVE is not as rewarding as playing the TP as a FACT for everyone, how can it be possible that I can be more successful farming as opposed to playing the TP?
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I tend to find that people love Guardians because they love being supported with our skills, boons and boon duration. Otherwise, they don’t really have a preference, as long as you’re playing something to it’s highest damage capability.
Therefore, two builds … the DPs guide from Obal has a few and … something else that simply brings a heavier helping hand to your group. It’s a reasonable approach to ask the group you are joining what flavour they would like you to be. Now that trait resets are anywhere, this approach should satisfy any group.
yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing
The burden of proof is on you to show this is factual information if your using it as your premise to why the TP is bad. I’ve tried both approaches to making money and getting stuff; I’m WAY more successful farming than I am on the TP. I’m not the only player where that is the case; that’s the counterpoint.
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I think the more relevant question is why can you a Legendary and not an Ascended? Answer seems kind of obvious in that context. Let’s be honest here, the exception that are Legendaries doesn’t make the barriers to endgame gear and the reasoning behind not being able to buy them on TP any less real.
We can go back and forth on this Legendary exception but the important point here is that it’s not desirable for people to buy endgame setups and it’s why the three ascended crafting mats aren’t available on the TP. This is why suggesting they be sellable contradicts the obvious game design.
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I think JS already outlined the POSITIVE impact that flippers have on normalizing prices … and the OP wants a fee structure in place to reduce that positive impact?
Well, you better come up with a really mind-blowing argument for why this needs to be considered … and I haven’t seen it. Especially since your whole premise is to encourage farming.
Farming can be encouraged more directly without underhanded, indirect nerfs to the TP mechanics. For instance, if you want to get more people farming, then one possible approach would be to offer more frequent, highly rewarding events offered RANDOMLY in the zone that aren’t necessarily based on killing something. This would encourage people to run around the zone looking for them. The knock on effect … increase the opportunity to kill trash and gather nodes while doing it … AND leave the TP alone.
I don’t even see the need to increase farming … so, the whole suggestion simply doesn’t make sense.
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If what you say is true, the game wouldn’t exist. Zero ROI projects aren’t really popular with investors and employees can’t buy groceries with promises and good will.
I missed the part where he claimed that Anet was a non-profit.
The part where he implies the only funding the game needed was from box sales.
I said it was “marketed” the way I described. I didn’t claim it was the reality of the situation.
… you can ‘buy once and play forever’ though. That doesn’t contradict the need to continue funding the development of the game.
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At least the OP is honest, unlike everyone else making the ‘nerf TP baron’ threads.
Still, this has been hammered hard and no one has a reason better than the OP provided for why this should be changed.
why the hell so many people argue against it?
the fact that players get tons of stuff that is USELESS and have to destroy it is a bad design decision and should be fixed somehow periodsame with these kittenty fractal rings they drop every single fractal and once you got your characters equipped with em they literally have no use besides selling em for 5s to merchant but still its better than these completely useless bloodstones
It’s not a bad design decision at all. It would be bad design if you couldn’t delete them.
Please, they are always open to suggestions. They listened to me when I told them about their language chat filter should be disabled in Edge of the Mists.
Listing empyreal, dragonite, and bloodstone on Trading Post is certainly not unreasonable because like I said, they are common items.
Being common doesn’t make the ability to list them on the TP reasonable. If anything, it’s a waste of time to implement because they will be the next ‘leather’. At best, allow them to be sold to a vendor as trash, nothing more.
Furthermore, while Anet is open to suggestions, the suggestions need to have some sensible reasoning or application that ISN’T opposing the design of the game. Just because you have alot of these things and don’t value them isn’t a good reason to make them sellable on TP, especially when it’s OBVIOUS they aren’t meant to be tradeable in their raw form …
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I do … and it’s the same point Nike made. You might not see a problem with simply buying your way to end game gear. Many others, including Anet, do.
Doesn’t seem to me that Necro is designed to have a long range power option, nor should it. I’ve never though it was necessary. Especially that we can trait reset now, it’s hard to take these complaints seriously. Swap build when you need it.
The solution here is easy … don’t PUG.
Not even close.
If what you say is true, the game wouldn’t exist. Zero ROI projects aren’t really popular with investors and employees can’t buy groceries with promises and good will.
I missed the part where he claimed that Anet was a non-profit.
The part where he implies the only funding the game needed was from box sales.
The box price was never suppose to fund the game like GW1. The Gem Store was always the plan on how to pay the bills quarter to quarter. The box price paid for the 5 years of development because the $10 million a year for the last couple of years of development from GW1 wouldn’t pay for a 250-300 player dev team.
In your mind maybe, but it was marketed as I have described it.
If what you say is true, the game wouldn’t exist. Zero ROI projects aren’t really popular with investors and employees can’t buy groceries with promises and good will.
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I’m not saying it’s a final solution, but it is the current solution.. And the consumer benefit being the direct purchase price is largely driven by the true player value of each color.
Alternatively you could just stop the RNG based cash shop purchases? But I guess that would cut into your whale fishing profits.
What’s the motive for a business to stop trying to make money? Unemployment is fun?
Customer goodwill and faith.
Maybe for a month … then there are no customers because there is no business. Do you think GW2 is funded by good will and faith?
The rewards are inline with the types of people that do them, their complexity, etc … it’s not a simple matter to determine rewards. It’s a very presumptuous thing to think that rewards as they are don’t have ‘reasons’ for being what they are.
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I love when someone complains they have options. It’s such a self defeating argument. Makes me wonder if they would complain even if they got stuff for free because someone could sell same stuff and make money.
Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?
Actually, I believe the distribution of potential return is the same and over a large range of values for the various factors in system A and B. I’m no economist but I believe it has to be that way because they share a common medium of exchange (i.e. gold).
That’s why I can’t fathom why people think this is a problem. It’s clear they don’t get it from how they talk about the few people that make a fortune on the TP, forgetting the many people that lose on the TP. I would suspect the parameters that influence this equilibrium are the kinds of things that JS tracks and uses to make his definite statements.
On the other hand, I do see a problem with the case where ‘potential’ to earn is unbalanced. If the TP was so harsh in it’s taxes/fee structure, the economy would revert to bartering. If it was too easy to make money on the TP, more people who don’t know the value of items would end up paying more for goods and prices would increase.
We don’t have either of those situations. Feels balanced to me.
OK I see. The stats for the highest teir are the same as legendary, so little has changed. I’m not sure I agree that demand for Legendary isn’t impacted by the fact that the highest teir is Ascended vs. Exotic but I understand the point you are making.
What happens when some players get enough wealth to make the difference in limited resources?
That’s an interesting academic discussion but that’s as far as it goes … This scenario doesn’t happen in GW2 because resources aren’t limited and anyone can contribute them to the market either in a listing or fulfilling a buy order. In otherwords, your scenario won’t happen because the market is competitive.
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My first though … WTF?!?! I’m not even sure what kind of theme that portrays … it’s a little outrageous.
The problem was solved with Ascended weapon crafting IMO. Now no one can argue they NEED a legendary. It’s simply a cosmetic item that offers slightly more function because of it’s increased cost.
I dont see how. Before ascended legendaries hat equal stats to exotics. So ascended changed nothing.
I don’t follow you. My point is simple … people can’t argue the need a Legendary because Ascended weapons can be crafted. Therefore, the landscape of all this legendary/precursor discussion has changed enough that it’s much different than it was when this thread was started.
The problem was solved with Ascended weapon crafting IMO. Now no one can argue they NEED a legendary. It’s simply a cosmetic item that offers slightly more function because of it’s increased cost.
My response is… if you can’t tell me why it’s bad or how to fix it, what do you expect to happen?
I dont’ know. Since you obviously don’t care about the same 5 people complaining. I’m not sure why the same 1 or 2 people telling people there’s no problem matter.
That’s a rather tit for tat argument … his question is legit. There really isn’t anything to discuss if people can’t even frame the discussion in way where constructive debate can happen. This requires someone to go beyond quoting their opinion.
I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity …
1. More than one efficient opportunity … yes, I agree and I was sincerely hoping we would have seen precursor crafting by now.
… and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.
and this is the problem.
1. The opinion of alot of people != there is a problem. They might not like it, it might be the majority of the people. If it works as it’s intended, you have a really hard slog trying to convince Anet it’s not only bad, but they need to change it to suit the way disgruntled players want it.
2. Core gameplay isn’t defined by players. TP is as much core gameplay as any other content in the game. That’s evident by the way that gear is obtained. Is it good, bad, right wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s the way it’s implemented. If anything, the TP encourages players to save money for stuff they want. They get something you can’t get from raiding for gear; a target.
The impression I get is that most people that complain are incapable of equating their time in game to gold making potential and comparing that to time in game to looting items they want or the mats they need to make the item. Since they haven’t done this, they get a false sense of getting screwed by sellers because they compare a known price for an item/mats against the unknown time spent to get it from looting. Essential, convince themselves they will ‘win’ from gambling against the odds over earning and spending the gold for what they want. The irony is that earning the gold allows people to do whatever content they want and have fun doing it; getting items as loot in a specific raid rarely results in the same game satisfaction.
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The problem is that the TP is the best way to play the endgame.
1. That’s a generalization and it’s also balanced by the risks associated with it. Therefore, it’s NOT the best way to play for everyone because they would fail terribly. It’s not even limited to endgame …
2. Penalizing rich players who profit from the TP doesn’t fix that even if it was shown to be a problem (which I’m still waiting for someone to do)
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I didn’t steer it … someone has made the point that average players can’t make decent progression endgame doing core game activities in a thread related to increasing penalties for people that make money on the TP. You don’t see the connection attempting to be made here? It’s not hard to see that the next step is to say rich people are screwing the average person’s ability to progress because the gear rich people manipulate on the TP to make money (the same gear average people need to progress at a decent pace) is too expensive for the average guy to afford.
Therefore … nerf rich TP people that make money on the TP, that will make needed gear for decent progression affordable and all the sudden, the current miserable struggling average people are smiley happy people that can progress and play the game.
It’s nonsense.
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People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.
That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing open world event, purchase rather cheaply or craft relatively easily with T5 mats; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.
your goal and progressions once you hit 80 is not rare gear, you have had rare gear since like level 45.
Your goal and the ability to progress at a decent pace to that goal are NOT the same thing.
There is a distribution of player skill that affects success, that’s certain but that has little bearing on how the game is balanced. I have no doubt that the claim that average people can’t progress at at decent pace because the endgame is balanced around gear they can’t obtain through regular play is just … stupid. You only need to look around and observe what people are doing to know that’s a steaming load.
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