Guild Wars 2

Jinks.2057:

Fight clubs suck.
IMHO solo roam

Fight club is good for people who want to do 1v1s in a WvW enviroment but lack the mobility and escapability to roam. Cut them some slack. :P

Some fights from a few hours in EB on 2/7 including a really fun extended fight in the dredge caves.

Dr Acula.3496:

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

Try not to sound quite so bitter, and having condi removal on CD is part of the game… just like having abilities that provide confusion on CD….

That whole post essentially looks like this, “I died to confusion, and rather than learn to work around the fact that confusion exists in the game and will be applied to me at one point or another, it should be nerfed.”

Also, confusion builds aren’t new, D/D Ele’s aren’t new, and Thieves and the things they do aren’t new to this game. So why aren’t we seeing these groups running around everywhere composed of what I am deciding to call, “The Three Amigos” right now?

Hrm, actually a lot of gank groups and dueling heros use mesmers, elementalists, and thieves as their primary composition. More balanced groups also carry the other classes (and generally do better in greater than 5v5 fights).

Interesting to note that there really aren’t that many “gank group” compositions in our matchup. None from IoJ and a just a few from EB that we steamroll. I doubt DR has any as well.

Funny how we also steam rolled you a few times…. Go ahead and get off that high horse….

Um, I wasn’t talking about you. You aren’t running a gank group (as I define it) since you are running with guardians and necros and such. I consider you a balanced group and the best group we have faced when all of your people are there. There are a couple of other small groups on EB who run a lot of thieves and mesmers (and that’s mostly it) and are GC. Those are the ones we have steamrolled not you. How could you even think I was talking about your group?

EnRohbi.2187:

skupuz.6940:

Oozo.7856:

Heijincks.9267:

The formula for confusion is this:
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

At level 80, and assuming the mesmer went all out condition and has 1000 condition damage, each stack does 280 damage.

Not bad. You are only off by about 1000 condition damage in your calculations. Put in 2000 condition damage and run your numbers again.

PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

Assumes the Mesmer went full condition in sPvP and WvW (2000 condition vs 1300 condition)

WvW:
Stacks
1 =430
3=1290
6 =2580
9 =3870
12=5190

sPvP: 1
Stacks
1=162
3= 487
6=975
9=1462
12=1970

Due to food, gear, crystal, etc stats tend to a lot higher in WvW than sPvP.

5190/1970 = 263% more damage than what Anet considers balance in 5vs5 and 8v8…

It’s almost like Anet didn’t balance WvW for 5v5 or 8v8…

It’s more like Anet places a higher priority on sPvP and PvE balance than WvW balance.

skupuz.6940:

Oozo.7856:

Heijincks.9267:

The formula for confusion is this:
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

At level 80, and assuming the mesmer went all out condition and has 1000 condition damage, each stack does 280 damage.

Not bad. You are only off by about 1000 condition damage in your calculations. Put in 2000 condition damage and run your numbers again.

PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

Assumes the Mesmer went full condition in sPvP and WvW (2000 condition vs 1300 condition)

WvW:
Stacks
1 =430
3=1290
6 =2580
9 =3870
12=5190

sPvP: 1
Stacks
1=162
3= 487
6=975
9=1462
12=1970

Due to food, gear, crystal, etc stats tend to a lot higher in WvW than sPvP.

5190/1970 = 263% more damage than what Anet considers balance in 5vs5 and 8v8…

30 in Chaos and Illusions, with Undead runes, and Rabid amulet gives 1500 in sPvP. Not an optimal build of course.

Heijincks.9267:

Oozo.7856:

Heijincks.9267:

The formula for confusion is this:
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

At level 80, and assuming the mesmer went all out condition and has 1000 condition damage, each stack does 280 damage.

Not bad. You are only off by about 1000 condition damage in your calculations. Put in 2000 condition damage and run your numbers again.

If someone stacks purely condition damage to get 2000 (not even sure if that’s possible even with full rabid, undead runes, food, and tuning crystals) then the only thing you’d have to worry about is that condition damage. The physical damage would be laughable at most so waiting out the condition damage would actually then be practical.

Which incidentally would make that a L2P issue.

Your words, not mine: “assuming the mesmer went all out condition”

Things would just be so much easier for people to swallow their pride and admit it when they are wrong. I do when I’m end up being wrong about something.

1227 votes

Better 23%
Worse 64%

Goblin Beet Farmer.3045:

I am really curious what type of builds that ones complaining about confusion stacks are playing? Glass cannons?

Because toughness and armor matter when taking condition damage, right?

Heijincks.9267:

The formula for confusion is this:
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack

At level 80, and assuming the mesmer went all out condition and has 1000 condition damage, each stack does 280 damage.

Not bad. You are only off by about 1000 condition damage in your calculations. Put in 2000 condition damage and run your numbers again.

Dr Acula.3496:

Try not to sound quite so bitter, and having condi removal on CD is part of the game… just like having abilities that provide confusion on CD….

That whole post essentially looks like this, “I died to confusion, and rather than learn to work around the fact that confusion exists in the game and will be applied to me at one point or another, it should be nerfed.”

Also, confusion builds aren’t new, D/D Ele’s aren’t new, and Thieves and the things they do aren’t new to this game. So why aren’t we seeing these groups running around everywhere composed of what I am deciding to call, “The Three Amigos” right now?

Hrm, actually a lot of gank groups and dueling heros use mesmers, elementalists, and thieves as their primary composition. More balanced groups also carry the other classes (and generally do better in greater than 5v5 fights).

Interesting to note that there really aren’t that many “gank group” compositions in our matchup. None from IoJ and a just a few from EB that we steamroll. I doubt DR has any as well.

Dr Acula.3496:

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

Yes, I know, but sometimes they can get instagibbed by collateral AoE damage even when popped point blank in 10v10ish situations. I know that the build is heavily dependent on confusion which is why I would try to make the build and confusion stronger in other ways.

BTW, thanks for the explanation on how to keep confusion rolling for those who say that you can’t. I already knew the rotation you described and the traits mentioned. I don’t know everything but I do know quite a lot since I’ve been researching the game since beta.

That whole wall of text wasn’t meant as any sort of attack on your intelligence or level of knowledge of the game. (I’ve also been playing since BW1) I’m merely at a loss for why you are pioneering this sudden inquistion against Conf Mesmers. It’s not like these builds are new or were suddenly buffed. Nor do I find that they are particularly game breaking. Especially not at the rate conditions can be cleansed off other players in group settings.

I’ve questioned WTH they were doing since they increased the damage in WvW for PvE balance. Same concern with what they did with CnD damage. That patch really had me wondering whether they really care about WvW or not. I don’t see any valid reason for why the damage for some abilities should be much higher in WvW than sPvP when damage is already inflated by gear, food, oil, and stacks.

Keep in mind that we have a lot of 80 alts. We have at least 4 or 5 L80 mesmers and at least 4 L80 necros. Of course, that doesn’t really matter since you can make a L80 in less than a day via crafting anyway. The only real inhibitor is the cost of gearing.

We are wondering what might happen if we have 3 or 4 mesmers rolling out confusion with some necros spreading via epidemic. It’s not something that would be easy and it would take practice and coordination but we are talking about the potential of spreading over 20 stacks of confusion.

Dr Acula.3496:

As for all or nothing damage, that is essentially what any glass cannon build is. GC warrior, Bull’s Frenzy 100B, and hope for the best. If that fails when then it’s basically GG for that warrior. Thief Mug CnD BS with assass sig and Bask venom is another good 1 trick pony. Confusion is hardly all or nothing, that would be like saying bleeds, poison, burns etc are all or nothing since they can essentially be cleansed the second they appear on your character and do 0 damage.

Yes, I put those things in the “all or nothing” category as well. The result of a fight against a GC 100B warrior is quite different depending on whether you have your defensive CDs available or not. The thief rotation you gave is another example. As a necro, that fight is entirely different when I have life force than when I don’t.

When I say “all or nothing” I’m only talking about things that have very high burst damage potential where the fight is almost totally determined by whether you are able to counter it or not. Bleeds, poison, and burns don’t fall under that category.

Simonoly.4352:

When another Mesmer manages to stack loads of confusion on me I just use a condition removal skill and then swiftly murder them. To rack up a significantly large stack of confusion requires quite a lot of effort, timing and cooldowns. If a confusion Mesmer blows all their confusion cooldowns on me and they only clock one tick of damage (me using condition removal once) then they’re main damage source is out of the question and the fight is tipped in my favour.

And sure, you take some damage when you use the condition removal skill, but then I would also take some damage from bleeds, poison or burning before I set off my condition removal for them. So to me it’s just another condition to remove.

Whether or not it does too much damage, well, I don’t know. I’ve run confusion Mesmer builds in sPvP too and it was just as effective as in WvW. In fact it’s much easier to stack confusion in sPvP as a Mesmer, because battles are more controlled and intimate so it’s not as difficult to hit your opponents with all those glamour fields. I don’t think reducing the damage output of confusion will really help those players that don’t run with condition removal or those players that take any notice of the conditions that have been applied to them.

So, that was basically an argument for lowering WvW confusion damage to sPvP levels.

Dr Acula.3496:

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

Yes, I know, but sometimes they can get instagibbed by collateral AoE damage even when popped point blank in 10v10ish situations. I know that the build is heavily dependent on confusion which is why I would try to make the build and confusion stronger in other ways.

BTW, thanks for the explanation on how to keep confusion rolling for those who say that you can’t. I already knew the rotation you described and the traits mentioned. I don’t know everything but I do know quite a lot since I’ve been researching the game since beta.

EnRohbi.2187:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

If you’re at 2k health and get hit by just about anything you would die.
How is this an argument against confusion?

If your argument for nerfing it is that “It kills people at low health” then that, right there, is pretty compelling evidence that the kitten isn’t overpowered.

It’s not an argument against confusion. WTF has happened to our education system where people can not accurately interpret what has been stated in clear terms.

He said “never.” I took issue with the use of that word. End of story.

Bones.5762:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

first off, that’s called getting caught with your pants down, he outplayed you, accept it and move on.

Dude, just stop it already. He said he never died to confusion and I gave him a common example of where you die because confusion is on you. I did not say that you should not die in this situation.

Work on your reading comprehension and come at me with intelligent comments.

Zauric.2981:

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cooldowns come up.

Stuns are far easier to counter since there are a ton of stun removals in the game along with the ultimate denier – stability. And, of course, what people have been ignoring is that it’s not what the confusion mesmer is doing to you it’s what the other people are doing to you while you are shut out of using both offensive and (more importantly) defensive abilities.

I’m not sure how many of you people do 5v5 or 10v10 but doing five seconds of nothing for any stretch of time is a death sentence.

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

Dr Acula.3496:

The fact of the matter is that I play WvW simply for the fact that it isn’t sPvP, and I’m sure there are plenty of other players out there with a similar mentality. TBH though I would have to agree that damage is most likely balanced somewhere in between WvW and sPvP. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread Confusion is next to useless in sPvP. It simply doesn’t have the duration or oomf behind it for other players to even care if they have it on them. In addition if you nerf confusion damage you have to give mesmers something else, otherwise we are more or less forced into playing Power shatter / Phantasm builds. I enjoy being able to have a bit of variety.

Yeah, I dislike sPvP as well when compared to WvW. I pretty much agree with you on what you said here. In beta, sPvP confusion damage was a joke. I imagine it’s similar to that in sPvP now. It needs to have some bite to it. I think the balance point is somewhere in the middle perhaps. I also think that confusion could be boosted in some other ways to compensate for damage loss. Longer duration, putting in a mechanic that makes it harder to remove, etc.

On the topic of damage, confusion is not the only ability that hits harder in WvW than sPvP. It makes no sense that they allow this, particularly given the fact that damage in WvW is already higher due to gear selection, food, oil, and stacks.

Last night you hit me with 6 stacks of confusion that were immediately removed by my passive condition removal. I did not take even one tic of damage from it. This kind of “all or nothing” damage is bad for the game in my opinion. I’d rather you do less damage more consistently than doing either very high damage or no damage at all. It might weaken you in 5v5s or less but I think it would help you a lot more in the 10v10 types of fights where there is a lot more passive condition removal going around through combo fields and group abilities. Not to mention the difficulty in having your shatters reach their target with all of the AoE damage flying around.

About the “crutch” stuff. That is not directed to people like you who are going to be good no matter what class they play. If people come at me with the “ur bad” BS, then I’ll come back at them that they need the “crutch.” Some times you have to fight stupid with stupid.

And just to get on the other side of this for a bit. I think it sucks for mesmers when the stack of conditions they have built up gets removed by my passive condition removal. Is that skill when that happens? No, but it might look like skill from a mesmer’s side of the fight. “Wow, that guy immediately removed my 6 stack of confusion, he must be good!” Heh.

However, that’s a more general problem with this game: all or nothing damage based on RNG. That seems to be a core component of the game though.

skupuz.6940:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

I know your post is in repose to Oozo but please allow me answer this for you.

It needs a nerf because Anet never intended it to hit so hard in WvW. The reason you have two different multiplier for Spvp and WvW is to compensate for slow attacking pve mobs thus doing 100% more damage than Spvp. This is fine from a pve standpoint.
From a WvW standpoint, the damage is too high.

They need to push the Spvp build out to WvW so everyone is playing on the same rule sets.

Thief CnD does less damage in Spvp than WvW. Guardian save yourselves is on a lower duration in Spvp than WvW. And so on. This all needs to be push into WvW build.

They’ve kind of handcuffed themselves by having WvW and PvE work under the same rulesets. Not sure if it is something easy to fix or something hard to fix but WvW is a PVP zone and should be treated as such.

The bottom line is that mesmers in WvW are benefitting from a PvE buff that PvP players in sPvP do not have. That goes for the other classes working from different rules as well. Either the damage is balanced in WvW, balanced in sPvP, or balanced somewhere in between. It’s actually kind of insulting to WvW PvP players that there is such a huge difference between the two.

silvershadez.8421:

I play an confusion mesmer AND an engineer (which is my main), which both have good access on confusion. It’s a killer for anyone not able to remove conditions immediatly or the careless ones. The reason it seems to tick from no action at all is because some profs have automated skills. For example if a guardian refreshes one of his virtues this is counted as an skill activation.

You may know about the 100 nades engineer build which is popular right now. If you use a sigil which procs on weapon switch this counts for a confusion tick. The weapon switch itself counts for a confusion tick, so does the spell created from kit refinement. So if I was to remove that confusion with my #4 medkit skill, which also creates 1 confusion tick i receive 4 ticks of confusion for 1 attempt to remove it.

In my oppinion the ticks need an internal CD. So that there can’t be more then 1 tick each second or maybe even every 2 seconds.

Excellent suggestion. Taking multiple confusion tics from one move is another example of how poorly thought out and constructed confusion is at the moment.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

Or I’m giving my honest opinion on balance? I have not lost a 1v1 against a confusion-based build recently (not to say that I wouldn’t). That is not surprising since I don’t really 1v1 that much as Guardian is really not the best class for roaming around while alone and I’m not built for 1v1s (however it does hold up well against most power builds).

I know the damage that a high condition damage mesmer can do from being hit with multiple stacks, testing with a friend, and by watching movies. I think it’s too hard of a shutdown.

I also believe that there are certain power builds that do too much damage. Interestingly enough it’s the same exact reason why I feel that confusion is out line: formulas based on PvE and not PvP with food, oil, and stacks amplifying the disparity.

I really can’t give my opinion on guardian healing since I don’t run it personally and I’ve never run across a guardian that had healing that felt over-the-top ridiculous to me. I’m sure they exist though.

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

I expect to be at a disadvantage against certain builds just as certain builds are at a disadvantage to me. But, my issue isn’t really 1v1 – it’s what can happen in a group versus group fight. With the damage that can be put out via WvW-based confusion with food, oil, and stacks you can be put in no-win situations where doing something gets you killed because you did something and doing nothing gets you killed because you did nothing.

Possible fixes:

Reduce damage of confusion in WvW.
Have confusion not work against heals and defensive abilities.

Possible compensation:

Give confusion more duration.
Make confusion harder to remove.
Strengthen confusion/condition builds in other ways.

Condition builds should be about sustained damage, not burst damage.

SoggyFrog.4170:

Bones.5762:

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

Oozo.7856:

Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer. Be sure to read the link I posted carefully before doing so.

Bones.5762:

necro, warrior, engineer, ranger

Hehe, technically he’s right. Mesmer does have the lowest health pool when counted among those 4.
Grats on the faceplant, Oozo.

That is why I asked my question this way: “Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer.”

I specifically asked it that way to avoid the technicality argument. He replied: “necro, warrior, engineer, ranger” – two of which do not have a higher health pool than the mesmer.

Grats on your faceplant, SoggyFrog. Perhaps next time you should read the question first.

BTW, still trying to figure out why he listed four non-mesmer classes when he said he played 4 classes including a mesmer. Then again, numbers is hard.

kylia.4813:

Ross Biddle.2367:

kylia.4813:

jkctmc.8754:

kylia.4813:

kazi.6438:

Also, I have never seen confusion reach 4-5k damage. If someone was actually able to do that, they deserve a medal.

Can I have a medal please.

3rd fight against Warrior (the highest I’ve gotten on video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMI_MzO52lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That 7k Confusion tick makes me want to respec my Mesmer. O.O

Check out the other video’s while your there

Just wait until you apply all that confusion and your enemy decides to transfer his newly gifted conditions back to you. You’ll never have so much respect for your build until that day

Rule 1 when making a build:

1. Know how to defeat your build

Just watched your movie. I guess it’s a good thing that you are playing a class that doesn’t require good movement while using abilities since you mouseclick your utilities, your shatters, and some times your weapon skills.

Bones.5762:

Oozo.7856:

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

GJ you finally decided to educate yourself with wiki facts. But i did say if i remember correctly

with this engineer build i would be able to run 2 kits, 2 additional skills with no stunbreakers and one possible condition removal with medkit and be OP. thanks Oozo for giving out great builds, you’ve totally explained why confusion builds are OP, just apply hacks and exploits for wins right?

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

I already knew all of that because I researched classes and builds a very long time ago. I’ve been playing since early beta.

Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer. Be sure to read the link I posted carefully before doing so.

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

papacooldown.9482:

There is a reason you dont see bleed mesmers, its because mesmer bleeds are horribly inconsistent to the point that they are not viable in any setting. When we build for condition damage, we have abysmal damage output outside of confusion. Confusion is close to worthless in spvp due to lack of access to condition duration food and abysmal output. It is worthless in pve because mobs dont attack often enough and again it doesnt last long enough. If you nerf confusion you kill the only viable wvw condition builds for mesmers, and then we all go back to shatter or phantasm builds….

In honesty It could probably use a 15-25 % nerf in wvw with a 15-25 increase in duration to compensate. Just dont nerf it to spvp levels where it is nearly worthless even against heartseeker spamming noobs.

I’d go along with increased duration and perhaps even do something like make it a nonremovable debuff or something harder to remove. That would require a substantial reduction in straight damage however. IMO, condition damage is supposed to be sustained damage, not burst damage.

Added a quick and easy Gear & Traits movie link to the orginal post. In the process of trying to verify that the weapon generosity actually works. It seems to work for condition removal, but I haven’t been able to confirm condition transfer yet.

Also posted a few new movies. The first one is a montage of solo and duo action along with a few group portal bombs and line pushes.

Monster

The second movie is taken from a few hours in the Eternal BG. The last fight is an extended 10v30+ in the dredge caverns.

ADQQSty versus EB in EB

Ross Biddle.2367:

kylia.4813:

jkctmc.8754:

kylia.4813:

kazi.6438:

Also, I have never seen confusion reach 4-5k damage. If someone was actually able to do that, they deserve a medal.

Can I have a medal please.

3rd fight against Warrior (the highest I’ve gotten on video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMI_MzO52lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That 7k Confusion tick makes me want to respec my Mesmer. O.O

Check out the other video’s while your there

Just wait until you apply all that confusion and your enemy decides to transfer his newly gifted conditions back to you. You’ll never have so much respect for your build until that day

Why would that be a problem for Kylia since confusion is such an easy thing to deal with? Are you accusing Kylia of being a bad player?

And it sounds like you are speaking out of experience here. Have you had your conditions flipped on you and died to them? Sure sounds like it. Guess you are bad otherwise you wouldn’t have respect for something so easy to dismiss.

Dr Acula.3496:

and then we ran into you in Eternal >.<

Must have been after I logged off.

Yes, some ridiculously intense fights there. We had to move to Eternal BG when the rest of FTF came in to the zone. No point in dying repeatedly, would have stayed otherwise.

Dr Acula.3496:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Anet never nerfed confusion in sPvP, they increased its potential in PvE because of it’s ineffectiveness.

Sorry bro, its a L2P issue.

Oh, well… that makes all of the difference in the world doesn’t it? Why wasn’t the damage increased for sPvP then?

Because conditions are in general weak in sPvP unless you’re playing pug? Any coordinated tPvP will run a lot of condition removal and call stuff like “confusion” and pull the guy to the back. I have a feeling it really is a L2P issue considering you haven’t made any attempt to say whether or not you are running in a coordinated group of even bring condition removals. If you want confusion nerfed, then I want burst damage nerfed.

At least I can dodge burst damage. I can’t dodge confusion damage. I guess it’s stupid of me to go 15 points in the Honor tree though. I should L2P.

Some of the things you take confusion damage from are absolutely kitten

Mmmm and I heard you can dodge stacks of bleeds already on you, and burning, and poison, and cripples, and immobolize…..

Taking up to 3K damage from dodging is a bit excessive. Also, I haven’t tested this to be sure but I think you might take confusion damage for each person healed by the dodge roll. I would submit that you should not take confusion damage from abilities that heal or remove conditions. It kind of defeats the purpose of the heal or removal.

SoggyFrog.4170:

Oozo.7856:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Again, confusion was buffed for PvE, and WvW as a side. sPvP is the original state of confusion.

Your argument needs a buff.

It doesn’t make a difference to the argument. Why should 1v1s in WvW be easier for a confusion mesmer than 1v1s in sPvP?

Your brain needs a buff.

Neither WvW nor sPvP are balanced around 1v1.

And it never will be, but you have to maintain some balance in 1v1s because contrary to popular opinion they actually do happen from time to time. Around twice as much damage is a pretty big difference don’t you think?

I wonder what would happen if I suggested they lift the damage confusion does up to WvW standards in the sPvP forum. How do you think that would go over?

Let’s find out.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Suggestion-Please-Increase-Confusion-Damage

SoggyFrog.4170:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Again, confusion was buffed for PvE, and WvW as a side. sPvP is the original state of confusion.

Your argument needs a buff.

Confusion is less effective in WvW because it often involves larger fights over more open terrain. sPvP is a more restricted environment, since you’re fighting over small points with a small number of players with limited time. In this situation confusion is much more effective because it’s easier to apply and the control it provides has more impact on the outcome of a fight.

Since WvW has a real mix in terms of the combat it involves, confusion will be more effective in some situations and less effective in others.

Great argument. We should also increase the damage of all AoE by 100% in WvW since it is less effective in WvW than it is in sPvP.

And, of course… 5v5s never happen in WvW.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Again, confusion was buffed for PvE, and WvW as a side. sPvP is the original state of confusion.

Your argument needs a buff.

It doesn’t make a difference to the argument. Why should 1v1s in WvW be easier for a confusion mesmer than 1v1s in sPvP?

Your brain needs a buff.

Let’s say a mesmer has 1500 confusion which is doable in sPvP and WvW and has 6 stacks up.

In sPvP, the mesmer would do 1065 per tic.
In WvW, the mesmer would do 2130 per tic.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

Of course, the mesmer in WvW could easily have more condition damage than that due to food, stacks, oil, and gear selection.

I guess they figure people who play mesmers in WvW suck and need the help?

Dhampyr.2104:

Like I said originally, you can say the exact same things for stuns… fears… knockbacks… anything that is a control ability. Oh, except that for confusion, the TARGET controls the ability, not the caster. Personally, I’d love it if I could control whether a stun or knockback that you cast actually did anything to me.

Yes, I stand by my “a player is likely bad if confusion is killing them” position. YOU control it and whether it does anything at all.

This entire thread is full of “I don’t like that I have to modify my playstyle because of this… NERF IT.”

So, when condition removals are down you have two choices in a small group fight.

1. Do nothing and die to the people damaging you.
2. Do something and die to confusion.

Do you think taking over 3K damage per action from confusion is balanced?

EnRohbi.2187:

If you don’t want to run condition removal, you don’t get to remove conditions.
I don’t… get what you aren’t understanding…

You don’t get to nerf conditions just so you can go on playing like they don’t exist.

I don’t want to nerf conditions. It’s confusion that is overperforming. How you can justify taking over 3K damage (or 5K as some other guy posted) is beyond me. It’s ridiculous to think that is balanced and you are a clown if you think it is.

I run passive condition removal via trait and passive condition removal via weapon crits. I have active condition removal from runes of lyssa. For my utilities I use Stand Your Ground, Judge’s Intervention, and Wall of Reflection. These utilities are necessary for me to function and do my job for my group. I use hammer and mace and shield or staff. These weapons are necessary for me to do my job for my group. They do not have any condition removal.

Give me a fourth utility slot and I’ll take Smite Condition. Heh.

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Anet never nerfed confusion in sPvP, they increased its potential in PvE because of it’s ineffectiveness.

Sorry bro, its a L2P issue.

Oh, well… that makes all of the difference in the world doesn’t it? Why wasn’t the damage increased for sPvP then?

Because conditions are in general weak in sPvP unless you’re playing pug? Any coordinated tPvP will run a lot of condition removal and call stuff like “confusion” and pull the guy to the back. I have a feeling it really is a L2P issue considering you haven’t made any attempt to say whether or not you are running in a coordinated group of even bring condition removals. If you want confusion nerfed, then I want burst damage nerfed.

At least I can dodge burst damage. I can’t dodge confusion damage. I guess it’s stupid of me to go 15 points in the Honor tree though. I should L2P.

Some of the things you take confusion damage from are absolutely kitten

Dhampyr.2104:

To the OP (and supporters of a confusion nerf) – I would have no problem with this if ANet would give us another burn or reliable condition that YOU can’t control. Confusion is totally dependent on how bad the person you’re facing is. I’d much rather have predictable damage, tbh. I never, ever, have an issue with confusion.

Although… it is funny watching the bads melt. xD

Total BS. It’s not like you always have a condition removal available and the conditions can be reapplied faster than your condition removals come back up so you will often be in situations where you have heavy confusion stacks on you with no removal.

Don’t even pretend like that is not true. And, doing nothing is not always a viable option if the fight is not a 1v1. The one guys says… “just don’t attack” without recognizing that anything you do causes damage. One guy putting confusion on you while another is attacking you completely shuts you down when your condition removal is gone since you can not take offensive or defensive moves. And insisting that everyone run around with condition removal heavy builds just to counter this is stupid.

Go ahead and call me “bad” as part of your argument all you want, I’ll just call you people protecting the crutch that you are leaning on in return.

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Anet never nerfed confusion in sPvP, they increased its potential in PvE because of it’s ineffectiveness.

Sorry bro, its a L2P issue.

Oh, well… that makes all of the difference in the world doesn’t it? Why wasn’t the damage increased for sPvP then?

I guess the sPvP and tPvP people were not able to L2P so confusion got nerfed there.

Kalkz.5297:

i cant even see my golems …

Neither can the enemy. It’s all good.

Smokee.1754:

First HB video up from tonights reset, showing some fights during the first hour in BG bl @ Bay vs. TL and others. Second video from a guardian pov with more fights will be uploaded within 12 hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2rG87SOpn4

Is there a reason why you go through some of these entire fights without using protector’s strike once? I pretty much use PS on cooldown when I have multiple people around me while taking damage. It would seem to be a huge AoE damage loss to not use it all.

Bedstain.6735:

Na, confusion should not be nerfed. As annoying as confusion may be, mesmers are usually targets and that balances it out.

People intentionally target mesmers first? That’s almost as stupid as targetting thieves or d/d elems first. :P

Again, the complaint isn’t for zergs it’s for less than 5v5s. Why do you think Anet nerfed confusion damage in sPvP? Let’s assume that they felt it was OP. You do all realize that confusion does a crapton more damage in WvW than sPvP, right?

Do 5v5s or less ever happen in WvW? Yes, they do. Doesn’t this automatically mean that confusion mesmers are OP in 5v5s or less in WvW by Anet’s own standard?

The skillbar is set higher in WvW than sPvP in many instances, which seems backwards to me. For example, you are punished harder by thief damage if you don’t avoid it in WvW. You are punished harder by confusion damage in WvW if you don’t avoid it. There are other examples like this since the rules for WvW and sPvP abilities are different.

Not doing anything for 5 seconds is a death sentence in a 1v1 or 2v2. Of course things are more balanced in a (heh) zerg but that is not what is being discussed here.