Guild Wars 2

In beta it used to be the case that deathshroud lasted longer and you could trait it such that you had stability the full time it was up.

Obviously in that situation the ability to rez and stomp would be way too OP. HOWEVER, since our time in deathshroud is shorter and it can only be traited for 3 seconds of stability – necros should be given the option to stomp and revive in shroud now.

Balidore.2790:

I think the real issue is…. Blinding. Thieves actually have to have a degree of skill to Cloak and Dagger, also, u can hit them.
What’s happening in this video, is the same issue I see all the time. He’s only stealthing a little bit, but he’s blinding you. The person who applies the blind, you can’t see. The blind is an aoe too, it takes no skill once so ever to apply, and their’s no cooldown on it, they can use it all day long.
I see lots of people confuse stealth with blind. Thieves can’t stealth forever, but they can blind forever.

What are you talking about? Blind is a debuff that causes your next attack to miss. It has nothing to do with stealth or rendering.

And to the thief defending this: lol@U

The elementalist’s and thief’s gameplay might be fine, but this is not a good fight. It’s actually quite stupid. No good PvPer nor Anet wants fights to play out like this.

I’d say about 9 out of 10 stomps are already successful. But, there is a lot to be said about 100% success.

First half covers thieves. Second half covers warriors with a warrior versus thief duel at the end.

I thought you might be interested in seeing the fight from the other side and it also has some relevance when talking about balance which has been a hot topic as of late.

IMO, thieves need to be dangerous. Fighting thieves is my favorite fight because of the threat they pose, so I really need to be paying attention and play well or I’ll get face-planted by a good thief and this is something I appreciate since I play these games for the challenge.

So, I really don’t think the damage thieves do is a major balance issue. Every player should make sure that they have defensive measures in their build to counter burst. Yes, I get stomped by thieves when all of my defensive CDs are down but that is the nature of a game with cooldowns. Thieves also do equally poorly when their defensive CDs are down.

Do I think that thieves are perfectly fine? No. But, again, it’s not the damage that is a problem. I see two problems. Certain thief builds have too much mobility which removes too much risk versus reward from their gameplay.

The other thing I think needs to be looked into are the 1115 pistol/dagger thieves that save all of their initiative for cloak and dagger and just autoattack people to death over time. It’s cheese. It’s not skillful. It is far too effective. And, trust me, it will remain that way even after rendering is fixed.

Ranged damage mixed with stealth has always been an issue in MMOs. What keeps a melee thief that heavily uses stealth in check are AoEs. But, AoEs are not effective against pistol/dagger. If they are built for stealth and survival they can regularly suceed in 1vNs as we’ve seen in several thief movies. Some of those thieves are legitimatally good, but some are not and are being carried by cheese mechanics.

The real culprit here is cloak and dagger. This ability needs to be adjusted or changed to prevent 1115 cheese and something else needs to done to compensate for melee/backstab thieves who are more dependent on stealth.

This is how I see things because I fear that Anet might be looking at the wrong things based on player feedback, which isn’t always (heh) accurate.

I was able to churn this out a bit quicker than I expected. Some of the INTRO/OUTRO I posted before was changed to fit certain fights in.

This is my build: http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=;04-8c;0kHkH0G4wJkJ0;9;4T9;0T19B3;626A4BG0I;1OZG5OZG55Bk

Special thanks to LuckyIrish from TL for the duels.

The trait by itself is not enough to guarantee a full stomp. Not everyone is going to have +% boon duration. In fact, many won’t since Reanimator sucks so much. If they remove that trait, I’d definitely be tempted to go Death Magic to further secure the stomps.

As it is, very few people time it well enough to stop the stomp but it does happen and when it does I do cry inside a little bit.

Edit: Currently looking at gear options.

Monk and Water runes are options. Interesting actually, it would make necro a really strong stomper and reviver. Not sure if it would be worth the hit to damage output though.

Vayyy.5420

@Mindlessruff im talking about during the downstate, where the class only has 4 skills

Not sure what you mean by that with resepect to rez assistance. You can’t stability or quickness from downed state. However, it is possible to give nearby teammates those buffs right before you get downed.

What do you mean by rez assistance? I’m sure he thought you were talking about what people can do to help rez OTHER players, as did I.

Necro is very weak in downed state, but does well with stomping and reviving if you have mark of revival and stability via deathshroud. Also, there are a lot of other factors involved such as abilities that give you block or blind enemies.

For example, when I can’t deathshroud for stability on my necro to stomp I will put down a blind field on top of the downed player (when appropriate). On my guardian, when my stability was down I’d pop block to help secure stomps or revives.

Good start to discussing downed state balance, however.

Demoralization would seem appropriate for a real war but inappropriate for a game that requires more than one side to play.

It’s not quite long enough to cover a full stomp. They can catch you on the way down.

And stability is incredible. You can use deathshroud to immune yourself from INC CC. Although, there is a skill requirement to get the most out of that. The stability is also excellent for covering your life transfer damage. Good players will interrupt your life transfer.

It’s only worth it if you are running a power build, however.

The thing is though that the warrior forums aren’t being bombared with nerf requests. You barely see actual discussion of the thief in here, and when you do, its usually derailed by a comment like “reroll to a class that takes effort”, or “F1, 2, 2, 2”

Understood. Just for the record, the damage he is doing in that movie with killshot is far more gamebreaking than backstab build thieves. In fact, I think 11115 pistol/dagger thieves are far more of an issue than dagger/dagger thieves.

The reasons why there haven’t been a ton of calls for nerfs is that killshot damage is that a lot of people probably haven’t been hit with it. That will change, of course now that people know about it. A lot of people have been backstabbed, hence more complaints.

Here is a lesson in logic. Let’s say we have two abilities: Ability A and ability B. There are four possibilities.

Both A and B are not overpowered.
A is overpowered, but B is not overpowered.
B is overpowered, but A is not overpowered.
Both A and B are overpowered.

Question: If B is overpowered, does that mean A is not?

LameFox.6349:

LameFox.6349:

Judging by the flame blast (during HB) and lightning strike (followed by another GS swing, even though he used a MH sword skill later and obviously doesn’t carry two GS) it looks like he had time to swap weapons and back again before you died. You also used ‘steal’ in the midst of HB – does that work while knocked down?

I’m finding your ‘within a two seconds’ [sic] claim a bit iffy.

Any explanation OP? Where did the flame blast and lightning strike come from if not two different sigils? Why were you using steal of all things while in HB?

The lightning strike proc was from armor, not weapon. The thief made the mistake of hitting the warrior thus sealing his fate (that was sarcasm, heh).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Air-runes-Really-How-have-they-not-been-fixed/first#post692077

TLDR: Nearly a third of the damage came from some bullkitten cheese proc that ArenaNet has known about for weeks but hasn’t addressed and has nothing to do specifically with warriors.

NOTE: Yes, I know it’s ironic that my TLDR is longer than the original text.

1-2K is still pushing it (IMO) but acceptable. Anything higher than that is ridiculous. Adding an element of randomness to a fight is fine, but it should be crafted such that it is rarely the determining factor of a fight.

But, that is just common sense. Isn’t it?

Have you tried mapping your DS and stomp buttons side by side and hitting them at the same time? You can test stomping on the NPC in the Heart of the Mists now.

Another game (whose name we can not speak) added a new CC type called “horror” which was a combination of root and fear. In this game that would just effectively be the same thing as a stun since there is no seperation between physical and magical CC.

Also, there are times when you want fear to work the way it does now. Pushing people away from stomps and/or revives or fearing people off of cliffs and edges.

Bleh, can’t edit the original post.

Shroudstomp 2 is still in the works and will feature 1v1s against thieves and warriors. I’ve posted the INTRO and OUTRO to that movie here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Intro-Outro-for-a-Necro-vs-Thief-Warrior-Movie/first#post691690

Entertainment style and tongue-in-cheek.

It’s definitely hurting the game, but on their side of things they really have to be concerned about unintended consequences when it comes to balancing.

Now, bug fixes on the other hand…

Most of the movie will be 1v1s from sPvP, but there is some WvW content as well. The WvW content is all against geared players with more orbs of power than myself (before they were taken out).

It’s about 80% done and will be “infotainment” style. I try to keep it entertaining but also try to convey information about what is happening for people who might not be familiar with necromancers.

Barring disasters it should be out in a few days. ’Til then, here ya go.

INTRO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4cZuKldANE&hd=1
OUTRO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjk0B6-d_QA&hd=1

Don’t forget to set quality to “Original” for best effect.

Fiesbert.9816:

Andele.1306:

Hope that you know that you cant stomp via DS unless you wanna get stuck post the cast…

I just pop into DS for a fraciton of a second to gain the stability buff. The stomping happens outside of DS.

You can stomp and revive while in DS if you hit your stomp and DS simultaneously. I’ve personally never got “stuck” doing this, and I’ve done it oh… maybe a few hundred times by now.

The only thing more important than stomping a downed player is not getting stomped yourself. Sometimes it’s worth it to stomp a downed player even at the expense of getting downed yourself… just as long as you know there is someone nearby that can pick you up.

That trait is one of the best traits a necro can have. It’s placement kind of sucks for condition builds, but it’s a no-brainer for power builds.

Everyone seems to want to fight on their own terms.

I guess this means when others are outnumbered they can request that stealth-heavy build mesmers and thieves stop using stealth, group stealth, and stealth revives on each other (because glass cannons get downed alot but are really hard to stomp in a group fight due to you know… stealth).

Wow, somebody is burning bridges.

No need to get nasty. :P

Why no comment on the lightning strike proc? Winning or losing a fight based off a reactive proc from being hit is the lamest form of RNG there is.

People underestimate the value of channeled damage. It’s basically a counter to blinds, blocks, and evades.

A blind, block, or an evade can totally negate a single “big” hit. However, with a channel most of that damage is getting through against blind or block and at least some of it is getting through versus an evade.

Now, if you are running power with dagger and axe and you have some lifeforce you can do your three channeled attacks back to back and that is a good bit of damage that is not easy to avoid.

samkong.2719:

On paper the idea of a Necro being able to out last and out strategy other classes sounds great. Unfortunately however, this is our reality. Before we get a chance to literally get off a single scepter swing we’re dead.

This is why we should settle to a set % of lifeforce when out of combat. We are much weaker when we start out at 0% lifeforce than we start out at 100%, particularly against burst classes. I think a good starting point would be in the 20-30% range.

Karl McLain.5604:

Difficult times editing posts!
For in-deathshroud abilities, I tend to use Life Blast until my bar’s about 50% depleted, then Dark Path+Life Transfer for maximum damage and chasing power.

A good melee player will knock you on your butt or stun/daze you if you port to them and life transfer. I’ve found it best to go 30 points in for stability and use that to protect the transfer. That means you pretty much have to lead with it.

I’ve paid the price many many times by not protecting the transfer with stability.

Berullos.6928:

And the best snare in the game is an Elite from the Ranger. You heard of that sucker?
Immobilize, unless the roots are damage, except they’re so buggy its very difficult to actually damage the roots, usually get lots of dumb Obstructed stuff.

The roots also damage you while stuck in them. Does a buttload of damage.

Only reliable way to get out of it is to teleport out somehow.

Yes, I’m kind of sad I didn’t roll a Sylvari for world PvP.

Actually, this is a really good point. What if they took our dagger root and made it more like this and made some other similar changes. That would definitely move us closer to what Jon envisions a necromancer to be.

I agree with his overall vision of the difference between a thief and a necro. However, the necro doesn’t fit his definition as something you can’t escape from in it’s current form.

If we are to have low escapability and mobility then give us snares and roots that actually ARE something to be concerned about.

It’s called “flavor.”

But yes, currently most classes can easily disengage from a necro.

It’s not just about buffing our snares or roots. Take a look at this trait from the most mobile of classes, the thief.

http://www.gw2db.com/traits/1700-fleet-of-foot

There are a lot of condition removal traits and skills out there. Many of them passive. Conditions are, generally speaking, weak in this game for controlling other players. So, when you have a mobile build with good condition removal (which all well-built mobile builds will have) you get something which can’t be “horn locked” by a necromancer or any other class.

The only way a necro could lock down a class is if you gave them snares which couldn’t be removed, but that is not going to happen. So, the balance that Jon is talking about between the mobile build and the lockdown necro will never exist.

Prove me wrong.

And just to add, having escapability and mobility is by FAR the best survivability you can have in this game.

If you are trying to balance that with the necro’s attrition survivability, then I think you have some work to do.

Still though, I am enjoying the necro and I do love the death shroud mechanic since there is an element of skill in how you can use it. But, I’m also realistic. Necros will never have the open field survivability of the other classes that you mentioned.

The Necro, on the other hand, should be the dude you CANNOT get away from.

Unfortunately, that is not the way things are working right now. Any class built for mobility can easily get away from a necro.

It’s the necro that is stuck in a live or die fight once they engage or are engaged. That is not true when a mobile class engages a necro. They can pretty much disengage and leave whenever they want if the fight is going poorly for them.

Fun to watch. I have yet to win a 1v1 as a necro, but in my case PEBKAC.

Well, necro definitely can’t be classified as an easy class to do well with. I lose my fair share of 1v1s as well.

The three second stability does not cover a full stomp as is. It will secure most stomps though.

You can toggle the DS on/off and retain the stability, but as mentioned above you lose a little uptime on the stability which can cause your stomp to be interrupted.

The main concern (with respect to balance) is that while you are in DS you absorb incoming damage. This has the most impact when you are reviving someone and you have full life force.

While this might not be intended, it really can’t be classified as an exploit IMO. Other classes have mechanics that help them greatly when stomping and reviving. Look at what a thief or guardian can do.

My traits typically look something like this, although I swap things in and out at times. In WvW I use the falling damage trait, for example. With the staff I might take 10% extra damage and life force for marks. I’ll probably be switching to axe and dagger mainhands though. The staff is nice, but the cooldown length is a big turn off.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/necromancer#0|0|0|0|0|0|0|30|1592|1211|2242|10|2324|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|30|1256|2400|1271|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|

I find Plague Form to be more useful in more situations than Lich Form. It helps when being focused by multiple people and it can also be used for group support (peeling for a friend who is being focused). It’s still useful for 1v1s as well.

Popping Lich Form in a group pvp enviroment can be risky as it makes you a huge target.

Ouch, that sucks. But, hey… everyone knows it’s how you look that is the most important anyway! :-D

Power Necro to be precise.

This is the intro for a movie I’m working on focusing on 1v1s against thieves. I’ll put my thoughts on the matchup later when I have more time.

The full movie will either be entertainment style like the intro or a mixture of entertainment and commentary. Commentary requires a good bit more work, however.

Of course he was culled out in that situation. The fact that he would try to pass off rendering and culling issues as players not being aware of their surroundings is flat out dishonest. What we need are mature players providing proper feedback, not people defending their own class with laughable crap.

In order to play a thief, one has to complete level 1, purchase the correct armor/weapon, copy a backstab build and practice pressing 3 buttons as fast as possible.

I haven’t run the steal/stealth/signet/backstab build personally, so I’m not 100% sure, but you can probably macro most if not all of that attack so it can be done in one button press.

ktith.6197:

DR should live it up this week, because next week who knows if any guilds will leave or transfer off. Will this be the norm? Is this a one time deal like Kain last week?

/tsk tsk at transfers

The top bracket and the lowest bracket both offer something the mid brackets can’t deliever at the moment and that is relatively competitive matches. Since the queues are horrible at the top bracket I suspect the lowest bracket will consistently be getting transfers from people looking for competitive matches rather than kitten boosting.

Cheers from Unlimited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j54bkD-3Nr0

So, I went ahead and hung out at the Red supply camp so I could fraps what this looks like from the non-thief side. I purposefully hung out at the edges so you could use me to restealth. On your side it looks like you are coming in and out of stealth. From my side you were permastealth for minutes at a time even as you ran around cloak and daggering myself and other people.

Yes, it can be countered by stacking up and pulling you into AOE, but it’s still flat out ridiculous. I know you aren’t hacking, but this is only possible due to bad game mechanics and bad coding.

I’ll post fraps of this tomorrow so you and Arenanet can see how broken this is.

Ackinbal.2617:

Good to know. Then that whole trait line is spoiled because of this. Why do we need that little minion to spawn in the first place? Not very helpful, and lets enemies rez…

Sucks for PvE as well since it will often run off and aggro a pack of NPCs right after you kill a different pack.

It’s kind of bad when you would rather have NOTHING in a slot than have what they give you, isn’t it? I’m avoiding the whole trait line for that minor trait alone.

With that said, it would be nice to get an official response on this issue.

I assume they look at all the videos that are posted here. IMO, it can’t be classified as a bug since the game supports the simulataneous use of abilities in many many many circumstances. However, it might be possible that they don’t want us stomping or reviving while in DS. In which case they will adjust the mechanic to prevent that.

HOWEVER, I do believe they want to keep entering DS as a “use whenever you want to ability” so we can use it while stunned or knocked down. That’s basically the reason why you can stomp and DS at the same time.

I think it would be hard to “fix” one thing without destroying the other. IMO, they should just give us the ability to stomp and revive in DS straight up. You have to spend 30 points in Soul Reaping to get the most out of it anyway and most, if not all, of the other classes have some way to make them better at stomping and reviving.

Why should necros be any different?

IMO, necros are relatively balanced and just need some fixes. IMO, the reason power necros, in particular, seem to be underperforming is because certain builds from other classes are overperforming.

They should normalize the bunker and burst builds of other classes first and then determine where we stand after that.

sAdam.5876:

I think lore-wise it’s logical that in DS we can’t Revive allies. Well it is called Dead shroud for a reason. Stomping on the other hand would give us to big of advantage, cause it would give us more time /life during stomp. Sometimes I got downed while stomping other downed player. That gave his teammates more time to help him.

How is stomping while in DS any more advantageous than stomping while invulnerable? Stomping while invisible, while different, also has some pretty huge advantages.

Hi.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/MOVIE-Shroudstomp-Power-Necro-WvW/first#post469570

You can stomp and revive while in Deathshroud if you hit them at the same time. I’ve never experienced the bug that Andele mentioned and I’ve done this a lot. :P

I’m hoping they don’t nerf it and just give us the ability to stomp and revive straight up. I don’t see what the problem is since other classes have mechanics that give them advantages while stomping and reviving as well.

War Mourner.5168:

I have tried this before, and I can perform the stomp as I go into death shroud no problem, But I found that even though I would perform the animation, nothing would come of it. After seeing this I tried again with the same results, any ideas?

I haven’t experienced this myself. I haven’t been able to PVP much the last week though, so there is always the possibility things have been tweaked.

Natalie.7421:

I like the song used in vid, can u tell me its full name and artist?

Here is a link to the song: http://www.tweakerray.de/nineinchnailsremixes.html

It’s “Burn (Angel of Destruction Remix)”.

Heh. WTF is it with people. I said the movie was an entertainment style movie, hence parts are slowed down or sped up to synch with changes and/or lyrics in the song.

The might was from the Siphoned Power trait while getting hit by 5+ players. Putrid mark can crit for 3-4K at times. That is not horrible.

You seem to be threatened by this movie because you clearly want necros to be buffed. I really don’t think there is anything here that says they shouldn’t be.

The power builds underperform when compared to other DPS power builds, however I don’t think necros are nearly as bad off as some would make them out to be.

DS survivability alone is a very nice mechanic. However, thief survivability through stealth and mobility is better.