Guild Wars 2

That’s the sPvP set I’m using which is a bit more offensive than what I use in WvW. In WvW, I mix and match to balance things out a bit between power, precision, vitality, toughness, and crit damage with a bias towards power. I’ll post my stats tomorrow.

digiowl.9620:

I honestly fear that a working spectral grasp is what the anet devs have in mind when they claim necromancers to be a profession you can’t escape.

Honestly, I think that was a miscommunication error. He meant to say that necromancers are designed to be a profession that can’t escape.

If so, then they haved nailed it.

The cool thing about the lowest teir right now is that you get to know people. I’ve lost a good number of 1v1s against people playing very solid builds. They aren’t in this movie since it’s a gank movie. I don’t kill good players with good builds in a single well/root/daze combo.

I can tell there are a lot of small guilds who focus on small group fighting that have moved down. They all run very solid builds that are extremely difficult to fight (as a necro) – mostly d/d elementalists, condition mesmers, and stealth healing thieves (of course).

I’m sure the highest teirs have a ton of great players. It’s just harder to find small fights there. I prefer 5v5 or lower. Also, there is alot to be said for being able to log on and instantly enter WvW with your friends without having to sit in a queue.

I’d strongly recommend the lower teir servers for people who are looking more for that roaming DAoC group versus group feel. That can be sustained on the lowest teir server but not on the uppers, IMO.

I decided to give it another shot.

The improvements have increased it’s effectiveness from working 20% of the time to 30% of the time. I’d place this utility in the “almost worthless” category. Almost because when it does work it’s great. But most of the time it’s like running around playing with two out of three of your utilities.

Still getting a lot of obstructed messages when you have clear line of sight on flat ground. Still getting a lot of out of range messages when you are well within range.

Zintair.1987:

Last tier of WvW? pretty good but the players you are fighting are really bad. 80% just sat in your wells. Solid play though you should jump a few tiers I think you;ll find the WvW a lot more rewarding.

my 2 cents and nothing against your playstyle or video which I thought were both very good.

No offense taken. Keep in mind that the reason a lot of people sit in the well is because they are rooted and dazed there.

I’ve played against the “top” servers, the players there aren’t any more skilled than the players at the lower teirs. Zerging requires no skill. What you find on the lower teirs are small guilds that came down to play together (since there are no queue times). There are A LOT more small group fights in the lower teirs which actually require far more skill than zerging around.

I’m not saying those players are in this movie, however. It is a gank movie, afterall.

Being a top teir server means you have better 24-7 coverage, not better players. I know this from direct experience.

IomegadriveOne.5291:

Oh so instead of 2 people ignoring Rangers, it was an entire team. Thanks for clearing that up. Really helped.

The snark is strong with this one.

Zizanzi.4678:

Anonymous Defender (AD). Kudos to you three, first time since DAOC playing my PAC healer that I actually have to be really battlefield aware on what I’m doing when you three are around. Absolutely LOVE fighting you guys. We both had to contend with all of the extra cannon fodder which also added some interesting moments :-p. Awesome fights and defiantly looking for some more action with you three.

Look at your PM Ooso please.

Stylii Elementalist (Staff)
Shoulda Rolled Kaineng (NoQQ) Leader

Challenging fights for sure. Died a bit more than I like.

Your LARP/NoQQ crew brings a lot of control, damage, and survivability. Really solid builds all around.

Shield of Absorption revive was intentionally changed in beta to not do the knockback. Mark of revival is better.

sPvP/tPvP isn’t PvP in its purest form either.

Rank is clearly an indication of skill.

Ziddy.2583:

I think ozoooooo needs to realize stats are boosted beyond what SPvP stats are in WvW. 100% crit damage anyone?

Anyway you can keep tellling yourself that WvW and SPvP are the same thing if it helps you sleep any better at night, but it won’t help your credibility here.

Actually, you are making my case for me. I’m saying that damage isn’t the main problem with thieves. You are saying, “you can’t say that since you are playing in WvW where thieves are better and do more damage than in sPvP!”

Oh, and again… watch the second movie to watch fights against thieves in sPvP. I don’t blow any of them up (because I was using staff and had not refined my dagger play) but you can see that they aren’t overwhelming with damage. But then again, they are probably ungeared, not level 80, and don’t have their skills unlocked or something. No, that can’t be it since it’s sPvP. Wait, I know… they are BAD. Yes, that’s it. They are bad.

It’s always gotta be something.

Harrier.9380:

Fun fact: You can achieve much higher stats in PvE/WvW than in PvP. My PvE Thief in full Berserkers got almost 60% crit chance and 100% crit damage (base stats ofc). Single Unload does same damage as full Backstab combo in PvP.

So you can mix in some defensive gear and still achieve stats that only full glass cannons can get in PvP.

There is also food and sharpening stones and in the good old days – orbs of power. So, you are basically saying that thieves have the potential to be stronger in WvW than in sPvP, right? Add on to that, some of the nerfs to damage that effect thieves in sPvP but not WvW.

But, this helps my argument doesn’t it? Since I’m not complaining about their damage output. It should also make you wonder why they nerfed thieves in sPvP but not WvW.

Aragiel.6132:

Its a nice movie, but comparing WvW with sPvP is a bit complicated. How do you know the players you have killed were not just lvl 10 newcommers without utility skills?

Please read the message above yours.

Xom,

Please explain in detail how you can tell someone’s gear level by looking at what skills they are using.

Before you say that it’s because of their level please be aware that when a person is a true level 80 that they don’t have the little green up arrow next to their name and that it is highly likely that a true level 80 has his weapon skills, utilities, and elite unlocked.

draugris.9872:

i can assure you that you won´t see this number if your opponents are at the samel level, gear and invested into toughness

Which is probably why I didn’t call the movie: “A Tribute to Opponents Invested Into Toughness.”

Fiesbert.9816:

WvW is meaningless PvP since you can outgear your enemy.

So, in other words, a fight between two equally geared people in WvW is meaningless since some fights in WvW aren’t between equally geared people.

It’s a kitten shame that logic isn’t taught in lower level education.

Maybe if they just gave it to us for one day? I’d love to run around just one day with all my wells and locust swarm active while in deathshroud using life transfer. :P

Oh, and I’m sure you know this, but just clarifying: stability won’t get you out of a root, but ports and condition removal will, of course. That’s why dagger and warhorn are so good together since you can root and daze someone in your wells at which point they are screwt.

Xom.9264:

Glass cannon burst builds work for some classes in tPvP.

Mesmer Thief are built to make it work with great defensive options not tied to stats.

Some warriors will glass cannon build to end long stalemates… simple tactic just run in go crazy forcing stun breaks/long cooldown use respawn then come back and end any stalemates.

Game needs work, right now the PvP is not MMO like with epic battles and tactics. It plays like a FPS that takes no skill like a FPS takes (people dont even need to aim as busrt). Sure you can say stun break and dodge but stun break is on much longer cooldowns then burst classes burst.

We need another game mode like deathmatch or massive balance changes to classes.

I touched upon this above, but personally I don’t think damage is the problem. I think some combinations of stealth, ports, and mobility give some burst builds too much sustainability/survivability. It’s all about buying time for your next heal.

Since you play necro, you know how much of a difference it is between starting a fight with full life force and no life force (and yes, I top off on critters in WvW – I think this is a HUGE necro-specific issue that needs to be addressed. I suggested that our life force pool be normalized to a fixed percentage when we fall out of combat – say 25% or 30%. This would help in sPvP to avoid front-loaded burst and it would fix the critter abuse in WvW). Life force (discounting plague form) is what allows us to sustain ourselves in order to get to our next heal. What makes us weaker than a well-built thief or mesmer is that our life force WILL eventually run out under pressure, whereas their means to sustain to the next heal comes off of cooldowns (or CnD in the case of the thief).

Again, the problem to me is actually not damage with the thief – for example. I laugh when I see a thief trying to take me down by spamming heartseeker. The thief that scares me is the one that is built to sustain because I know he is just simply going to outlast me.

IMO, the overwhelming cries for the nerfs that the devs hear from the playerbase is leading them down the wrong road.

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

isnt this necro glass cannon? i don’t understand the point of the vid. it was kinda cool but……???

I’m definitely more on the offensive side of the scale but I balance things out with my utility, trait, and elite skill choices. I also split my gear between offense and defense.

You don’t have a lot of choice with gear options in sPvP (which is something I think they should address) so I do use a berserkers amulet in sPvP but I use toughness and vitality on my armor. In WvW, you can tailor your stats a bit more and there I run more toughness and less damage.

To me, a glass cannon is someone who goes balls to the wall on damage with every single choice. I am not a glass cannon by my definition.

My general point is that when someone goes glass cannon they pay a price. Warriors pay more of that price than thieves or mesmers, IMO. I think the frequency at which certain builds can stealth is what causes the problems with those classes, not necessarily the damage that they do. Stealth is very very good when used wisely to extend fights to your next heal.

The damage can be avoided. Builds which put all their eggs into the “big hit” basket are very susceptable to being blocked, blinded, dodged, CCd, or in my case death-shrouded. Yet many of the complaints you see on the forums are about damage.

I am attempting to change that perception.

Jhor.4350:

Nice vids, Oozo. That last was a very fun fight, until you spiked me ;p

Had some great fights tonight, both wins and losses, that I failed to have fraps loaded for. I did get one side hit vs mostly RED and GOLD, though.

Yeah, I put it in there since it was really a very good fight by you guys. I typically don’t put fights where the opponents are outnumbered in my movies. I thought you would like seeing it from the other side.

You’d have to change the name to Auras, I think. :P

It would be fun but it would also be borderline OP.

Well, some of the arguments are bad but I understand his general point. If I was confident the PvP devs actually read the WvW forums I would have posted the movie there. I just want my input heard on some of the balance issues and IMO movies can be a valuable tool in that regard.

I am still curious as to what Xom’s view is on glass cannon burst builds in tPvP though.

Xom,

He isn’t moving because he is rooted. He tried to use heal to heal himself and stealth but I interrupted that with the warhorn daze. He died before the root wore off. I was behind him so he couldn’t hit me. You can’t turn while rooted, although certain abilities will autoface you.

You can tell when a person is wearing exotics if you recognize what the gear looks like. I find it unlikely that someone would be wearing an exotic model but decide to transmute blue or green stats on to that item, but yeah… I guess that’s possible? :P

Most 80s will have full exotics by this time because even if it is an alt they should have more than enough money to fully equip them either via crafting or trading post.

I understand and respect (but disagree with) your opinion on why devs should completely (?) ignore WvW when it comes to balance issues but some of your arguments here are really bad.

Xom.9264:

Oozo.7856:

I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

For good reason, if you feel you are a real daisy make a tpvp vid you will be facing people that are there to win and understand the class they play with and are even geared.

I have never had anyone stand in wells full duration in Tpvp. Wont get into it, just dont think a WvW vid belongs in spvp forum but like you said thats the Mods call.

Have you tried rooting and dazing them in the well?

If you catch a glass cannon in a root/blind/daze well combo they are going to be hurting or dead in sPvP or WvW.

So, what is your POV on glass cannons then? You believe they need to be nerfed more for tPvP balance?

Xom.9264:

p.s. opening your vid by ganking an afk player in WvW does not really help with the whole 1 v 1 in spvp and wvw is the same argument. LOL
Also they are not even glass cannons in the vids just undergeared underleveled people.

He was not AFK, he was scouting our position and waiting for help to arrive. He tried to heal but the heal got interrupted. AFK players don’t try to heal. Also, people can’t move when they are rooted. :P And if you hit them with a daze while they are in it, what do they do?

Also, you can clearly see that some of the people who die in less than 4 seconds are using exotic gear. Everyone is level 80 except for a guardian before a thief fight and the three sub80 thieves iirc.

Again, the second movie has sPvP if you want to skip the first but alot of it is using a staff so the killing is much slower. The dagger footage is from literally my second day of using the dagger (ever) so I wasn’t using it correctly to burst at the time.

We can let the mods decide on that. I think anything which speaks to class balance goes here. I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

The lifeforce situation sucks in sPvP for sure, I’ve already given my input on how to improve that in the necro forums (which wasn’t acknowledged and probably not even read). That’s a seperate issue, but it is an issue. I’m not using kill stack sigils, so no impact there.

Xom.9264:

Seems to be 95% WvW there is a forum for that

Did you read? There is not much difference in a 1v1 in WvW and a 1v1 in sPvP if the people are running a similar glass cannon build. The second movie is mostly sPvP.

The footage here is from WvW, but it seems appropriate that it be put in this forum since balance is discussed here moreso than in the WvW forum. Also, it’s been shown that they sometimes balance things based off of WvW feedback but then apply those changes to sPvP but not to WvW. So, yeah…

There are far too many complaints against pure glass cannon builds. When you construct a build, you should put in place some kind of anti-burst mechanic. If you don’t then you should not complain if you get bursted down.

The strongest builds are not the ones that sell out everything else just for the sake of damage.

I put out a movie with a similar theme a week or so ago. It has mostly sPvP fights.

Hello,

Here are a few movies of (*mostly) unedited WvW from our matches. No disrespect meant to anybody here. There are a lot of fine players on all sides (but there are also a ton of zerglings :P)

Respect to the NoQQ people for not cheesing your tower when fighting outside of it. And it should be pretty obvious from the footage that you do have some good players on an individual basis.

Nov. 7th – Some fights against [XO](Kaineng) and dealing with the Ferguson zerg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7EEYD41vAc&hd=1

Nov. 9th – A fight over a supply camp against [TTA](Ferguson’s).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KATSDAiNMP0&hd=1

Nov 17th – Madra and myself running duo with Kaineng on one side and Fergs on the other. Small scale skirmish against NoQQ at the start.

Generally speaking, abilities which require melee (short) range to hit are designed to do more damage. Also, keep in mind that the thief has a lot more tools to stay on their target than a necromancer does. So, I’m thinking the difference in damage is intentional.

Pretty good analysis, IMO, EatThisShoe. I think it’s always generally been harder to avoid key attacks than to execute them in MMOs. However, in GW2, you get punished much more for failing to avoid key attacks than in other games. This widens the gap between those who can consistently read and avoid attacks and those who can’t for whatever reason.

This helps explain the dichotomy in player feedback with respect to GW2 PvP.

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Cyanstorm.9613:

I can tell ye all we have the best individual fighters of all 3 servers, that is a fact.

No, that is an opinion. And a poorly formed one at that, since I’m sure you haven’t fought everyone from the other servers on an individual basis.

It’s really kind of amazing how different people can have completely different experiences playing the same class. :P

It seems like a serious design flaw to make a class mechanic where we can only use it once every 8-9 enemies

Huh? o0

Kind of fun to take a small group and win against twice your number sometimes. :P

TLDR: If you don’t like zergs, don’t run with them.

Kardiamond.6952:

I think it’s a good build, but I doubt you would win all your 1v1. Would like to see a video of this, just so I can see how you fight, maybe there is something I don’t see!

Have a good day!

He is saying it’s excellent for 1v1 over a point since it forces someone off of the point or they die. He acknowledges that it’s not the best build for pure 1v1 skirmishes.

You are meant to dip in and out of DS on a situational basis. Deathshroud is an incredibly good form (for power builds).

Wolfen.5708

Get real, they won’t be able 1vX anyone half decent simply because of the downing system.

Stealth stomp?

Not everyone has the tools to stop a stealth stomp and even if you do they will often be on cooldown. On the other hand all a thief needs to stealth stomp is initiative which a pistol/dagger thief will typically have in ample supply since they save their initiative for CnD.

TLDR: The frequency at which a thief can stealth stomp is greater than the frequency at which other people can stop it.

Reworking CnD, or not allowing us to “hide on demand”, will totally make useless most of our shadow arts trait, hence your suggestion doesn’t really work, since for the most part our class is designed around CnD.

Yes, Anet really stuck their foot in it on this one. The cancer is deeply embedded, so I’m not sure it can be removed. But you never know, sometimes people come up with some really clever solutions to problems.

Wolfen.5708:

This is by far one of our strongest 1v1 build, because as you might have noticed, once you learn to counter a backstab thief there is nothing much he can do but run away and re-try his combo (by the way, I never got killed by a backstab thief when I had my stun-break ready in a 1v1).

Now, with the already announced upcoming and totally not needed backstab/burst nerf (just because baddies complained about it), I don’t think that touching our others “competitive” builds would be fair, even because they can be countered and are not really viable in most tournaments.

There is nothing wrong with strong 1v1 builds. There might be a problem when something is too strong at 1vNs.

Philosophy:

It should require skill to win a 1v1 against a skilled player.

It should require skill to win a 1v2 against two good players.

It should require skill to win a 1v3 against three or more bad players.

rickshaw.5279:

Oozo.7856:

The other thing I think needs to be looked into are the 1115 pistol/dagger thieves that save all of their initiative for cloak and dagger and just autoattack people to death over time. It’s cheese. It’s not skillful. It is far too effective. And, trust me, it will remain that way even after rendering is fixed.

First, look at the weaponset before opening your mouth. Find me something… anything…. to use as an init dump that doesn’t put me out of the fight and I’ll gladly start using it. You say “cheese” I say put your money where your mouth is. All P/D has for staple damage is CnD, Sneak Attack & auto.

Glad to see that you agree that the weaponset is broken and needs to be fixed. Any time when the best way to play is to practically ignore 3 out of 5 of it’s ability that means it’s broken.

Teabaker.9524:

Dude, you are basing your nerf-opinion only on videos? You haven’t even fought such a thief? You can’t be serious. Seriously, how the hell can you start talking about balance without even having fought one? Who the hell do you think you are? You only made an “okay” necromancer vid. I’m not trying to sound rude but I honestly don’t know how to answer in a polite way.

Also the vid has a few bots in it. There was a vid of a necro killing 10+ bots so I guess nerf necro then.

http://i.imgur.com/yYBHz.jpg

Multiple videos of multiple thieves doing the same exact thing over and over and over and winning multiple 1vNs. The closest thing to this are some 1vN elementalist movies, but at least those required skill.

Some people seem to get really emotional when they think someone is going to take their candy away.

John Lucier.5486:

Oozo.7856:

John Lucier.5486

So, according to you, just because you build completely out of being able to transfer or remove conditions, another classes build based on conditions should be nerfed, and you come at ME saying I am using a strawman argument?? aaahahahah

How hard is it for you to understand that it doesn’t matter whether the damage is condition based or power based, the mixture of stealth and range is allowing people to win 1v3s, 1v4s, 1v5s, 1v6s.

And yes, you are using a strawman argument since I never complained about conditions. It’s not about conditions. You just pulled that out of your kitten to help make some kind of illogical and emotional argument.

I guess it is pretty hard for me to understand that someone like yourself can somehow type english and full sentences but does not know how to read words. Let me repeat, people have quoted you multiple times in this EXACT thread from things you said in the OP about how condition P/D is overpowered. Are you really that blind? I hear lenscrafter is having a 40% off sale, check it out.

Also you might want to learn what strawman argument means before you use it, you are just making yourself look worse, and while I find it amusing the clear lack of self esteem that is usually the basis for insulting one-self, I pity you instead.

Read my original post and quote me the part where I said or even implied that pistol/dagger was OP because of conditions.

If you can do that, then we will continue. If you can’t, then you will be put on ignore status.

The movie that gamefreak linked is what I was referring to. And that thief mouseclicks his utilities and mouseclicks weaponswap. Of course, it’s much easier doing that in WvW because of the critters running around to get free stealths off of. It’s a problem, IMO. I honestly can’t see how people can defend that, but whatever.

BTW, I have not fought a thief like this 1v1, so please stop with the assumptions. My concerns are based off of the movies I’ve seen.

Valid point on the DPS loss if you lose frenquency of stealth attacks. That could be balanced by improving the non-stealth attack, though.

I stopped using spectral grasp when it got obstructed on someone standing in front of me on flat ground with nothing in between us.

I agree on the staff. It’s autoattack is too slow and the cooldowns are a bit too long when not traited.

The nice thing about channels is that they are a counter to block, blind, and dodges. Some of the damage is going to get through and it typically won’t get totally negated like a burst damage ability.

With dagger, axe, and deathshroud you can do three channels back to back.

That trait slot was more of an afterthought for me since I actually use Toxic Landing there for WvW and I spend almost all of my time in WvW. However, I might switch to it when I’m just looking for fights and will definitely switch for sPvP.

Thanks for the heads up.

John Lucier.5486

So, according to you, just because you build completely out of being able to transfer or remove conditions, another classes build based on conditions should be nerfed, and you come at ME saying I am using a strawman argument?? aaahahahah

How hard is it for you to understand that it doesn’t matter whether the damage is condition based or power based, the mixture of stealth and range is allowing people to win 1v3s, 1v4s, 1v5s, 1v6s.

And yes, you are using a strawman argument since I never complained about conditions. It’s not about conditions. You just pulled that out of your kitten to help make some kind of illogical and emotional argument.

John Lucier.5486:

Yea you kinda lost credibility when you said P/D (IE Condition thief build) is easy, and needs to get looked at.

You lost all credibility when you said I lost credibility. SWIDT?

1. ALL weapon sets lack even the slightest synergy, so every build you are going to see spamming 1-2 attacks, even more so considering the initiative system.

And that makes 1115111151111511115ing with pistol and dagger okay exactly how? Saying something is broken isn’t the same thing as saying everything else isn’t.

2. Every class gets a condition removal ability, INCLUDING necro and some get multiple, and if you as a necro lose to a condition thief (which I have beaten on my cond thief) you are very bad because you are one of the few classes that can not only dump all those bleeds back onto the thief but are better at conditions from the get-go.

3. Front loaded damagethat 1-6 shots a person if anything, requires less skill because you do not have to stay in the fray to make your target dead, which means less damage you are taking, which also means less chance your target’s buddies to arrive. This is why good condition thieves will build as tanky as possible.

4. If anything the amount of damaging conditions a thief can apply vs the initiative cost is underpowered. All they have is bleeding, since poison is lackluster and venoms are next to worthless. That is not even taking into consideration the amount of condition cleansing in the game, so furthering my point. A condition thief will actually end up using 3-5x the amount of initiative to kill a target then a burst thief as well.

Almost all of this is a strawman argument since nowhere did I even mention conditions or complain about them. The problem is ranged damage and stealth, not the type of damage involved.

BTW, I’m a power necro. I don’t transfer conditions.

Jefzor.7145:

Great vid, you’re pro as hell.
Question: what do you think about the CnD+steal combo?

I have no problem with it’s end effect, but I think something has to be done to keep pistol thieves from having access to the CnD stealthing. However, if stealth is removed from CnD then melee/backstab thieves get screwed.

Something I was thinking of was removing stealth from CnD and giving it some other kind of useful effect. I’d shorten the cooldown of steal and let it stealth you without being traited. I’d reduce the effectiveness of stolen abilities until balanced.

Or perhaps something else. I haven’t put a tremendous amount of thought into it since it isn’t my job to do so.