Guild Wars 2

Very nice. :-)

oZii.2864:

Oozo.7856:

It would seem that some people have forgotten that thieves have access to ports.

With boats?

15 char

Tortuga. DUH.

It would seem that some people have forgotten that thieves have access to ports.

We took Bay earlier in the evening. It was very lightly defended.

The guild name is “Spys Sappin Muh Guild Name”

Is that RED’s real guild name or is this an imposter guild trying to ruin their name? I have never noticed RED’s guild name before.

Not the engineer. The cliff. The cliff is OP. It oneshot 4 people all at once after the engineer died.

Emissary Vex.5690:

Using a giant noob that doesnt even invis is a completely irrelevant example to use any in class balance discussion. It was probably his first 5 mins ever zoning into WvW.

So, you disagree that cliffs are totally overpowered?

5. Cliffs don’t abuse culling. They don’t need do.

If a cliff can do this to an OP thief, just imagine what it can do to you.

http://youtu.be/OX3OQImYGag

Things you need to know about cliffs:

1. They are immune to conditions.
2. They are immune to direct damage.
3. They are immune to all CC.
4. They can and will one shot you.

Someone said that it is 25 total (from all sides) that will trigger the swords, but the old rule was just 5 from one team to draw swords.

Anyone know which it is for sure?

25 from one team or 25 total from all teams?

Looks like there is a good chance that SBI will move up and EB will move down. I’m going to try to convince AD/NoQQ/BSty to not play for points at all this week and only go for open field fights to help make that happen.

Anyone who defends a class by saying it’s only good at killing newbs is admitting that they always lose to good players. And if that’s the case then the problem is you, not the class.

“L2P, thief is only good at killing noobs!” is cognitive dissonance at it’s best.

That said, the only thing I don’t like about thief is how easily they can reset or run away from a fight they are losing. But, they aren’t the only class that can do that.

The thing I love about these kinds of threads are the large number of people who decide to play a class even though “it’s only good at killing noobs.”

Wouldn’t you rather play a class that is good at killing good players?

I guess there are just a lot of people out there willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in this game. Here’s to all the mesmers and thieves out there fighting that uphill battle.

This one’s for you. /tips the glass

TLDR: Thieves are very strong 1vN classes, but are actually pretty balanced in group fights.

A couple of movies. Not calling anyone out, just trying to entertain.

3/4vN
Extended open field 3-way

Oddly though, when you type in “kitten” it will sometimes randomly spell out a curse word. For example:

dick

You see? There I typed in dick but it actually displayed as kitten. kitten it did it again. You’ll have to replace dick with kitten and kitten with dick in that earlier sentence for it to make sense.

There is this thing called risk versus reward. It’s been one of the main drivers in game balance since, I don’t know… forever.

Nuzt.7894:

For argument sake lets say they did this, now who’s prime time ? The west coast or east coast ?

This is just a terrible idea with flaws all over the place.

You don’t adjust the points according to some fixed time zone scheme. You adjust the points based on the relative populations (with some normalizing factors) whenever points are tallied.

Maladon.5760:

Nuked.2360:

…you would be basically saying anyone who plays SEA/Oceanic primes (which makes up a fair few players would be less valuable than American players which isn’t a good precedence).

I’d like to think it would encourage off-peak players to spread out amongst the servers in search of competitive gameplay. If you have 100 Oceanic players on a server vs. 10 guys who work second shift in the US then you have a lopsided battlefield and should be rewarded less for controlling it. If 45 of those Oceanic players transfer to the other server the points for controlling the battlefield go up to normal values and we have a better game.

Bingo. Since you can’t force coverage balance in a heavy-handed fashion you have to compel people to balance it themselves via the scoring system.

Nuked.2360:

Oozo.7856:

Nuked.2360:

Oozo.7856:

Linkisdead.9647:

We both accomplish the same task, yet you get rewarded more for it.

People who take undefended keeps and towers are not accomplishing the same task as someone taking a defended keep or tower.

Impossible to tell who truly has numbers where because each night it varies.

Do you think it’s impossible for Anet to tell?

Sorry I should have said impossible to adjust because the number’s change nightly. It’s evident in every match people stay up later some nights or some people have varying shifts so they are on at different hours. End of the day it has too many variables for one and two you are saying people who put in effort daily aren’t going to be rewarded because the opposing side isn’t coming to play (also keep in mind that will entice less players to play even if it is their primetime).

I’m thinking that Anet could have code that crunches the population numbers and automatically adjusts the scores when points are tallied.

Robot Chocken.7012:

This post amazes me considering that Kaineng has one of the best Oceanic powers in all of WvW. So yeah I would have to say that is a bad idea lol. It would be taking from your server to make Oceanic time count for less.

They would only count for less if they aren’t up against an equal Oceanic population. So, if the Oceanic people want their efforts to count for more they would have to move off of servers fighting other servers with no Oceanic population and move to servers fighting other servers with a good Oceanic population thus providing better balance in coverage across all of the servers.

That is what should have been done to begin with.

Linkisdead.9647:

Technically speaking; yes they are.

How are you going to quantify this in a fair manner?

What about back capping empty towers, why do you get extra for that?

There’s no fair way to implement it.

If people ninja a tower when there is equal population in WvW then one side was outplayed. That is quite different than people sweeping an entire map because there is almost literally no one there to defend.

Nuked.2360:

Oozo.7856:

Linkisdead.9647:

We both accomplish the same task, yet you get rewarded more for it.

People who take undefended keeps and towers are not accomplishing the same task as someone taking a defended keep or tower.

Impossible to tell who truly has numbers where because each night it varies.

Do you think it’s impossible for Anet to tell?

Linkisdead.9647:

We both accomplish the same task, yet you get rewarded more for it.

People who take undefended keeps and towers are not accomplishing the same task as someone taking a defended keep or tower.

Kingzook.1620:

Mogar.9216:

Title says it all. Having moved from t1 to t8 then fought all the way back up to t2. It became quite clear that in most matches it start out close then the server with most off peak hr coverage take everything after 2am in the morning and build up a massive lead . Then the losing teams fight an uphill battle the next night and stops showing up.

I really think it will help WvW to have the pts gained in prime time worth more than the pts gained in off peak hrs. Or else tie the number of pts gained to number of players in WvW. This way the servers with good night/morning pops still get reward but the gap to over come isn’t big enough to discourage the losing servers from try to mount some kind of come back at prime time

Lastly a nightly reset of keeps would also do wonders to encourage people to come out and play. .

im going to assume you are on Special K

which makes this laughable considering that [WM] is not a American timezone guild (or so i have been told)

face it, all Tier 1 servers have huge offpeak populations

if you do not like it, transfer to a lower tier, the timezone difference is not as noticable

Significant coverage differences lead to blowouts in every tier that has that problem.

Maladon.5760:

Oozo.7856:

Maladon.5760:

Oozo.7856:

Solution: Scale the points by the relative populations that are on at the moment.

To keep people from abusing that by logging out right before a point calculation you keep the point calculation timer hidden to the players and add an element of randomness to when it is totalled.

You’d use historic values to avoid spikes in the math.

It would need a lot of tweaking for sure, but I think it would work as a solid foundation to fix the coverage issue leading to blowout matches.

edit: The progressive scoring idea given above is also interesting

The real question is would it have an effect on player behavior and the various reasons we have blowouts.

In our tier for example, if SBI got fewer points overnight would IoJ and DR see a boost in participation as a result?

Probably not a boost, but less of a tapering off I would imagine. There would still be an advantage of having fortified defenses up when the populations normalize again. That is fine, I think. There should be an advantage of having superior coverage.

The main problem is how the score will snowball when one server demonstrates they can just take everything overnight or during work hours. So, the people who don’t PvP for the sake of PvP just stop coming out. But, if there is hope… who knows?

Maladon.5760:

Oozo.7856:

Solution: Scale the points by the relative populations that are on at the moment.

To keep people from abusing that by logging out right before a point calculation you keep the point calculation timer hidden to the players and add an element of randomness to when it is totalled.

You’d use historic values to avoid spikes in the math.

It would need a lot of tweaking for sure, but I think it would work as a solid foundation to fix the coverage issue leading to blowout matches.

edit: The progressive scoring idea given above is also interesting

Mister Mustard.7203:

Prime time for whom? Are you really going to say that the people playing on my server from halfway across the world are somehow less valid and deserve less points for their efforts?

If they aren’t playing against a similar population, then yes… they absolutely deserve less points for taking undefended keeps and towers.

Solution: Scale the points by the relative populations that are on at the moment.

To keep people from abusing that by logging out right before a point calculation you keep the point calculation timer hidden to the players and add an element of randomness to when it is totalled.

Thinly veiled insults? I must not be trying hard enough.

Haha, I think things will be a lot more cordial when people realize that our three servers have been through a lot of the same bullkitten. We are just coming in from different directions.

When someone is constantly giving credit for our success to numbers and numbers only not skill or strategy it gets to be (and is intended to be) insulting.

True, and I respect that and apologize for that since we were on the same side of that invalid argument as you when DR was breaking out of T8. But, would you agree it is also insulting when you play hard and win a bunch of fights to win on reset night only to see some people post a scoreboard the next morning after PvDooring saying that they won the reset night?

People can read your community website WvW forum.

It doesn’t matter how well DR does during primetime, SBI will win because of coverage. I don’t need to be reminded of that and the people posting those 500-600+ scoreboards are not real PvPers, IMO. They are something quite different.

Is that the same thing as saying you wouldn’t be able to win if you didn’t have that coverage advantage? No, as I said before I think this would be a really balanced matchup.

Gravy.7589:

The fault lies more so in WvW design. If you want to complain ANET would be a more appropriate target, but alas you forum warriors wont get the same reaction outta them then you will outta us.

True, but any reaction is greater than no reaction (which is what you often get from Anet on valid concerns) . BTW, my definition of a forum warrior is someone who doesn’t back up their arguments in the forum with actual play in game.

I’m pretty sure we back up our talk with our play. You might have a different definition, of course.

Gravy.7589:

I think people are just tired of complaining about numbers or coverage tilted one way or the other. DR has done a bit of complaining bout that and we have complained bout their complaining while LOJ just seems to enjoy a good fight and putting up some great Keep defense in EB.

People who love to game, get passionate at times. Happens to many of us and has happened to me. SBI has been stomped repeatedly before this match by large zergs and we never really bothered to complain about literally having days of not reaching 100 points. Many of us that were around for our tier one days and then continued to fight our way down to tier five, took our lumps but continued to show up and took more lumps, so when we see DR complaining about numbers it sets us a bit off.

Pretty sure you had some complain. Post history is a beeitch.

Again, the only thing that I don’t like are screenshots of scores after a healthy night and morning of building points from PvDoor. I’m sure you’ve had people on your server complain about that when you were in a similar situation.

BTW, a lot of the people on DR have played in higher tiers before. A lot moved because they didn’t like the zergy style of play. I think the fights in our tier are a lot better than the fights in tier 1 or 2.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Anyway, my interpretation of our zerg numbers based on the number of green dots I can physically see on my mini map around me is largely irrelevant. I don’t enjoy talking about numbers, because everyone sees something else (culling!). Sorry if this got you riled up; it certainly wasn’t my intent.

Green dots aren’t even reliable since pets and mesmer clones show up as dots. There really is no way to reliable count enemy numbers once above a certain level and you can only reliably count friendly numbers if the only people near you are in your group.

I think we are all going to be shocked by what we see when culling is removed in March.

Maladon.5760:

Oozo.7856:

If there is no night-capping how does it happen that DR won the PPT during prime time evening hours on the reset nights only to wake up and see SBI posting screenshots with 500-600 PPT and the point lead the next morning?

Wait, I know…

We typically start very slow on Friday nights. That might change this week with the extra bodies we seem to have but reset nights don’t usually start clicking for us until around 10-11pm est. I’m not sure if it’s just the day of the week or the fact that we’ve gotten wiped off the map within an hour of reset for the past couple of months by YB and SOR but we just don’t seem to have the horses until later in the evening.

Fair enough. I’m betting you will win the next reset night. Doesn’t matter though, we’ll still show up to fight.

At any rate, it was fun fighting SBI in the IoJ BL last night. There was a lot of open field action in and around the ruins.

If there is no night-capping how does it happen that DR won the PPT during prime time evening hours on the reset nights only to wake up and see SBI posting screenshots with 500-600 PPT and the point lead the next morning?

Wait, I know…

Rising Dusk.2408:

Only, no, but that is the composition of our primary zergs. Of course sometimes it varies by +/-5, and I know we procced swords twice last night during a few sieges. There are also guilds and groups that run off and assist in other ways such as running interference, taking camps, or scouting. Tuesday we had a queue in EB and a surprisingly large force, which is anomalous and definitely hasn’t been typical even during this match-up. That said, this morning we had 6 people in EB altogether, and had quite the time taking Veloka from IoJ.

I have no idea what numbers are like during off hours. But, SBI puts out some considerable numbers during primetime. We are constantly fighting 30-40+ in the BLs during primetime hours every single night. We avoid EB when we can because that is worse.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Oozo.7856:

A lot of the green servers are halfway between the brackets in terms of relative power. What I mean by that is that they crush their opponents when they are green, but when they move up they get crushed by their opponents when they are red.

From firsthand experience, I certainly agree with you. Still, I guess my only point made toward the OP is that being green doesn’t give you an unfair advantage over other servers. Your color is a result of your server’s competency (numerically and strategically), not the cause of it.

Right, there is no advantage to just simply being green.

We can, however, usually field 10-20 in two maps at once during our primetime, and usually get a few small groups of 5-10 going on in the off hours.

Dude. Just stop it. You are saying SBI only fields at most around 40 people on all maps combined during prime time?

MrLT.6028:

Drakh.3128:

How is it possible that a server winning it’s tier by 2x the points of the other 2 servers will loose rating? Sorrow’s Furnace for example from this week is ahead 221-125-120 and despite this they are loosing 51 rating? How are they ever going to move up if winning doesn’t increase their rating?

Because they didn’t win big enough.

It’s more because the servers they are playing are low rated so they don’t get much credit for even crushing them. The system doesn’t work. DR was the top server in T8 for 8 weeks and once they got out of that prison they went up to T4 in just a few weeks blowing out the teirs that were above them.

Bad system is bad.

Gravy.7589:

My issue with those on SBI who only show up when we are winning is they tend to ride the coattails of us more hardened wvwvw players. For a good month we struggled to get more then 10-15 people on one map or even get a breakout event started. People would come into a map and see the score, QQ in map/team chat and then leave. It got to the point where many of us that continued to fight no matter numbers or score, began to post in map chat for people to GTFO or transfer if couldn’t handle our descent into lower tiers.

Now we can have 20+ zergs on all maps during NA prime time. Its annoying as all kitten hell. I don’t want to slam you that bail out so easily when the fights don’t go our way, and I understand that this a game and should be a source of enjoyment, but we are one hell of a fare weather server. Its understandable though, when most of our wvwer’s jumped ship to stay in tier 1 or 2 and not a rare occurrence in GW2. Look as recently as SoS, who we might be facing within the next few months.

One thing that would help tremendously, as Krash stated above is a reworking of rewards and the scoring system in wvw. Look at the scores across the board at all tiers and you see huge discrepancies. WvW needs A LOT of attention from Anet.

Excellent post, but I wouldn’t say that SBI is any more of a fairweather server than other servers. Probably less so in most cases since you have suffered an exodus. All of the servers are going to have PVErs who come out when they see a winning score and not come out when they see a losing score.

What they don’t realize is that the score doesn’t translate to them not getting slaughtered in the open field.

Cactus.2710:

Krash.9486:

I am sure Anet has smarter people than me coming up with this stuff.

I’m pretty sure they don’t.

<3

Rising Dusk.2408:

To be fair, the server is green because it is winning consistently, not winning because it is green.

A lot of the green servers are halfway between the brackets in terms of relative power. What I mean by that is that they crush their opponents when they are green, but when they move up they get crushed by their opponents when they are red.

I’ll never honor any kind of 2v1 agreement. I’ll also never complain about getting 2v1d on any map (especially the home borderland – that it what it is designed for).

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t know, I feel like even if SBI has better coverage, when everyone is fielding their primes, the fighting is great. We didn’t have this in T4, but here it’s a whole different story. I feel as though we’re sort of an inbetween server, and that’s slightly unfortunate. We’re able to take on T5 and do exceedingly well, but T4 is too much for us. There’s no middle ground where we can fit comfortably and have good, even match-ups at all times of the day.

That said, DR and IoJ are still showing up and doling out good times. Last night in EB when IoJ pushed out Veloka / OW was great! I also thoroughly enjoyed DR’s attack on SBI BL’s Bay. We only narrowly made it with reinforcements in time, and only barely held you back in spite of that! Those instances were awesome and memorable, and I look forward to and know there will be more. Even though our coverage puts you guys a little bit down and out, I’m happy that you’re still coming to fight and not making it easy. That says a lot about your servers!

We’ll see. DR, IoJ, and SBI have all gone through the mass fairweather bandwagoner exodus phase. So, the people who are left are less likely to just ditch because things aren’t going well.

Someone said it before and it’s true, IMO. If our three servers had more similar coverage this would be an extremely balanced bracket.

jazzllanna.1278:

I don’t care about the scoreboard— It would just be nice if the practically the whole map was not 1 color Personally I love to see EB in almost even 3rds It means you can find a fight.. when it is all your color it is quite dull.. In fact I had more fun when we were losing sometimes because there was stuff for me to try and take! (not all the time though lol being out matched significantly still sucks :P)

I wasn’t directing the scoreboard comment at you personally, just lamenting about how matches can turn to crap because of the scoreboard and the number of people that actually care about it. If the match is balanced then the scoreboard race functions as intended. If the match is not balanced it leads to a snowball score.

This matchup is only going to get worse for you since IoJ and DR will lose the fairweather population and all that will be left will be the people who PvP for the sake of PvPing. SBI might actually win reset night this upcoming week because the people who play to win the scoreboard will just stop showing up since they know it’s futile.

Acelerion.6820:

Oozo.7856:

I think you’ll find the same issues on every server. The main difference being the number of zergs you encounter and how easy or difficult it is to fight them.

The major difference I’ve noticed is that you don’t have 30 person cull trains flying across the island spamming aoe for no discernable reason.

And the minizergs are much more manageable.

Yeah, a 5 man has a good shot against 15 from SBI and a 15 man has a good shot against 30+ SBI. Also, all a small group has to do to get some action is go to an off BL and take a tower or keep.

Noticed some OINK a few days ago doing small group but just realized last night it was you guys. We were fighting the same SBI zerg last night in IoJ usually working different sides of it.

Anyone interested in some friendly IRL knife fights? Contact me for more info.

jazzllanna.1278:

Just logged on and the map is sad. I really wish all these SBI people had come out when we were against CD and YB. The maps where ghost towns on our side during that time and if the numbers we have now would have just shown up we would not be against people that are clearly out numbered.. and it almost seems have given up

SBI did not have these numbers on the maps 2-3 weeks ago and no queue… in fact you were hard pressed to find a commander outside of Kiwi and KT and it was usually only on 1 map.

I hope we move up soon so we can play a bit bigger servers.. and I hope that everyone that has shown up lately keeps showing up – even if it is hard fighting- so we do not end up like this again. It is not fun to lose but it is not fun to just roll the other teams either!

The problem is that if you move up you will probably be evenly matched with one of the servers but the third will have a population advantage or a coverage advantage and they will be turning the maps one color while people are working or sleeping.

That leads to more of the winning server turning out while decreasing the number of people who turn out from the other servers. That is why the scoreboard is practically meaningless.

Slamz.5376:

MrLT.6028:

Except the problem I see is where he says within range of your character. watch they just redefine the range to be within 5 feet of your toon.

That was what WOW did. When WOW was in beta you could see other characters from a mile away. Sometime shortly after release they changed the rules and frequently if you were on a mount going south and another player was on a mount going north along the same road, they would appear literally right as you passed each other. The frequency of it checking to see who it should draw combined with the lower range of visibility meant that sometimes they’d be on top of you before you saw each other.

Hopefully that doesn’t happen here.

That already happens here.

Watch the last part of this movie.