Guild Wars 2

Title says it all; cancelling casting a well during the 1/4 of sec cast time puts them on full cooldown.

Rune of scavenging (6) does not convert 7% of vitality to condition damage, but, I believe, only about 2%.

I compared taking a rabid amulet in pvp + rune of undead (converts 7% tough to condi) to taking carrion + rune of scavenging (which should convert 7% vital to condi). The overall condi damage of carrion + scavenging was significantly less than rabid + rune of undead.

Grandmaster trait lingering curse does not actually increase the duration of scepter skill 2, grasping dead; it changes the skill description’s duration, but not the actual duration of the condition.

Lingering curse only doubles the duration of conditions applied by scepter auto-attack, not scepter skill 2 (grasping dead), even though the skill description says that it does.

This is an important point which should be replied to by anet staff

@Tim

I don’t play pve, but from what I gather, there are fewer skills to interrupt and so you will proc dhuum less? Is that right? If so, I agree that that would make dhuum weaker for pve players, but seeing as many pve builds don’t even use it, I don’t think it would nerf a condition mancer in pve, because surely they just run something like 06404 anyways? Sorry for being a bit ignorant about pve.

I don’t think it will be a nerf, given that we have a DS fear, nightmare rune fear, staff 5 fear, corrupt boon all on a normal terrormancer build, and given the respective cooldowns, this would allow us a decent spate of say 15 seconds (given an icd of 5 seconds) of interrupting and stacking burns.

After that we’d have to wait for skill recharges which is only fair; this makes dhuum into more of a burst skill than atm one with an ICD of 10 seconds. Currently dhuum relies on you having enough DS to keep going in and out of DS auto-attacking, a rather boring and easy playstyle. With burn on interrupt, this would reward players who save their interrupts, count dodges, count blocks, count stun-breaks etc., and then can land their burst.

@Ather that’s a completely new trait, let’s keep on something closer to the old trait. A knock-back seems ridiculous for our class.

As the title says.

To prevent this being OP, have an ICD of say 5 seconds and reduce the base duration of the burn.

I’d prefer this because it rewards a more skilful use of fears, teaching many necros to save them to interrupt key skills, and adds a bit more burst damage.

Discuss.

Superb feedback, spot on for most; how are the brackets chosen for the leaderboard though? Is it by MMR rating?

NeXeD.3042:

Soooo… since I haven’t playet at the highest tier I’m am not allowed to say pvp should be balanced at the highest tier. I see so clearly now I am nonsense. Btw you know why you think all healing in ds should be ok? I have seen you play it’s because your rotations and positioning are bad.

Sure necros should be balanced with all tiers in mind, just you don’t know what it means to be balanced for high tier, that’s all.

Btw, sweet that you’ve seen me play babe, I appreciate my fans, even if they don’t understand what they’re watching, but all the more viewers the better.

I stick with my support that regeneration should apply to the original health pool even after a necro goes into death shroud, just to make the healing of necros more on a par to other professions. This is a very minor buff, necros are obviously successfully playable without it. Healing for necros has always been a difficulty, as, here Nexed you’ll like this one, at higher tiers the necro heal is frequently and easily continuously interrupted, in fact it’s the easiest heal in the game to interrupt. Even with fancy spectral walk recalls and wurm popping, an industrious thief or anyone clever should always prevent a necro from healing. Thus a bit more regen would put necro’s healing more on a par to other classes/

I do support, though with less certainty, that heals should be able to be applied while in ds; for premades, this makes no difference really because heals are co-ordinated, but for solo queues, this would prevent the necro from relying on his team-mates to watch when he is in ds or not.

Good suggestions.

I agree that regeneration should still apply to (ie. increase) your health pool after you have gone into death shroud, unless it is removed or corrupted; this should just be taken for granted, that boons should do their job for necromancers just as they do for other professions. Swiftness, stability etc. all still apply when in ds, it seems odd that necromancers shouldn’t naturally benefit from the regeneration boon as other classes do.

Similarly, I believe that heals given when the necromancer is in ds should still apply to, and increase, their health pool, not the ds. Co-ordinating heals is less of a problem for pre-mades, but obviously more difficult in solo queues; the necro has to rely on the other team-mates understanding the necromancer profession, which many do not, and it is arguably too much to demand that they all should.

Nexed talking about balancing for the highest tier, which to my knowledge he has had no experience of, is rather funny. He has disagreed with OP but has given no good reasons to do so. Giving this healing to necromancers is a fair buff, helping their survivability in team fights, and putting their healing more on a par to other professions.

This will just be a minor buff, in particular that regen will give more healing. Nexed’s worries about necromancers becoming over-powered are unsubstantiated and, in my opinion, nonsense.

Vee Wee I want to marry you, it’s just a pity you’re an american, or at least someone on NA.

As it stands, the leaderboard rewards grind (time spent) rather than skill. Therefore the leaderboard is not representative of the best, the most skilled, players in the game and thus doesn’t serve its function.

I agree with Aaron that the leaderboard in its current state will place worse players who play more higher than players who are better but play less, and thus the leaderboard will not represent who the best players in the game are. As someone said yesterday, ESL and other competitions will still be the only reliable representation of who some of the best players in the game are.

The old team queue leaderboards generally had the best players at the top. It wasn’t perfect, but it was definitely more representative of who the best players were than now.

Rewarding playing more rather than playing well is not the way a leaderboard should work, imo. Then the leaderboard is not about skill, but grind.

Just a quick reply, and my last since I’m taking a break from the game for a couple of months because of university, but necessary:

" I am putting you in your place"

Just no. The only player you could put in their place would be a toddler who played with his nose and toes, whilst distracted by the Thunderbirds on the television.

Enough of internet wars though, this is your terrain: the forums, not the game itself. Again, to remind you, this topic is about necromancers in pvp. I’ve played that. Necromancers are viable in top tier pvp; I’ll say it again.

The section on PvE heroes is misguided and very very funny. Really funny. I properly laughed there. Thanks for one of the funniest posts I’ve seen in a long time.

Conclusion, because I’ve got to go:

There are weaknesses in a class, but it’s not so drastic as a massive design flaw. The weaknesses are, atm, outweighed by the strengths. If some of the strengths are nerfed (btw. if you think the only top tier successful builds rely on or even use those traits/runes, you’re completely out of the loop; still stuck on meta battle etc.), sure some builds will become weaker (obviously, as is the same for all classes).

If all the things people complain about on the forums were buffed, necro would be overpowered. If people think necromancers are not viable or strong atm because of some of their weaknesses, it is a definite L2P issue for those people.

@ Brandon: cool it. You accuse me of belittling people, for pointing out facts such as how many pvp games have players played. That’s the truth, not belittling, and important information for a topic on necromancers in pvp. But then you try to tell me who you think knows more than I do about the class? That’s not a fact, merely your unsubstantiated opinon, with the intention of trying to ‘put me in my place’. That’s pathetic.

Pointing out who has actually played pvp in a topic about pvp doesn’t say that they can’t speak or add to the discussion, it is just useful information for the readers, and may point to why their points, which they are free to share, may be misguided.

Again, the topic is not whether necromancers fit your ideals from GW1 of what a necromancer should be, but their viability within pvp. That is how I have taken the topic: gg pvp; not gg necromancers aren’t like they were in GW1.

Stop setting up straw men!

1. This forum is for people to have their voices heard whether I like it or not. Come on Brandon, don’t you see how stupid it is to say that? Where in any of my posts have I said people are not entitled to speak? Where? Where? Where? Stop setting up straw men which are easier to knock down than me. Needless to say, everyone can speak, BUT I can also speak in opposition to them. The hypocrisy of your post…

2. You set up a straw man when you say that I’d say Leeto can’t have a decent opinion just because he has few team queue games:

A) I never distinguished said that playing team Q games is more important than solo Q games; that’s your distinction.

B) I never said that people who are not experienced in pvp can’t form a decent opinion. They may strike lucky with their limited experience and say something salient. All I say is that it’s important for viewers of these topics and this forum that a lot of the complaints about necromancers in pvp come from those who don’t play pvp, which is ridiculous.

And finally, as a poster above me has said, these forums are too heavily weighted towards moaners. My opinion, that necromancers can be very strong if played well, and are good in pvp, which I think is correct, is by far in the minority in this forum, and should be heard.

@Brandon:

“Also calling out Bhawb on his PvP experience is a bold move of yours… Not only has he contributed more than you could ever dream off despite his experience, but he has a ton more knowledge than you, or almost anyone within this thread… Same thing with Spoj, who has vastly more knowledge about the inner design of a Necromancer, it’s strengths and weaknesses than you can imagine, yet is a PvE’er at heart… Simply looking at their scores and saying “they are scrubs” is a fairly narcissistic statement…
You do not have to be on top of the LB’s to be right – if anything, on rare occasions those people on the top have no clue what they are on about themselves… The design of the Necromancer is at fault here, and if you are just willing to “discuss” it with those who are on the top of the LB’s, then I would politely ask you to leave since it means you are not open for discussion”

My comments are all in response to the thread’s main post and title: gg pvp. I have commented upon the viability of necromancers in pvp, hence why I’ll call out people who don’t play pvp making comments about pvp. I haven’t called anyone scrubs. It’s important to remember this post is about pvp. Saying that some people have more knowledge than I could imagine is a joke. Misguided hero-worship.

This thread is not about the design of necromancers as whole, even if that’s what you want to talk about. I can completely understand your disappointment with the philosophy of necromancers and their play type. I’m not arguing for or against that, but merely responding to OP, which is about necromancers’ place in pvp. Instead, I’d ask you to keep on topic.

@Leman: “I guess sometimes you have to outright point out every single thing to make a statement understandable” – your statement was far too general to be helpful. Not the fault of the reader, but your fault. Your re-phrasing is more clear, and is a less general statement than your original, and can actually open up the possibility for a response.

I agree that necromancers are extremely reliant on their team, but I don’t think that’s necessarily bad. I disagree that they are extremely reliant on their opponents. If you went into the reasons why you think the way you do, then we could explore this further.

@The epidemic re-work: Conditions cannot be applied by skills or utilities to whom? To the guy marked? How many conditions does he draw each second from his allies? If the guy is marked, surely he could just cleanse those conditions before the timer goes off and then the epidemic is useless. I see no large difference between then and now, and the surprise element of condi transfer by instant epidemic more tide-turning in a battle.

Btw, if anyone in this thread is taking at face value what some of these guys say about necro being so atrocious, you might be interested in seeing just how few games these guys have even played in pvp (check gw2score) and how low ranked they are, that is if they’re ranked at all. Bhawb, very active on the forums, has a grand total of 85 pvp games.

Talking to the only exception, except for me, Leman:

“Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control.”

That’s a broad and unclear statement. Does it pertain to pvp? What does it refer to? Should I presume it is about pvp because the topic is on pvp? If so, Necromancers fare well against all classes in 1v1s, so it can’t be about necros faring in 1v1s. What’s out of their control? Oh this must be about pve or something.

Responding to Brandon’s concern about necromancers’ conditions being cleansed too readily to be of use:

In my opinion, condition necromancer is strongest in small fights: 1v1, 2v2 etc. It can be strong in larger team fights if played well, particularly on certain maps where it can free cast from a distance (eg. forest of niflhel mid point). So, if a necromancer wants to feel really useful, rotate properly into smaller fights.

In smaller fights, particularly if the guard isn’t there, the conditions are not cleansed as quickly as you can reapply them. Epidemic is an incredibly strong skill when used in these situations, because it can’t be cleansed immediately.

Responding to manver, another player who hasn’t played necro at a high level, so doesn’t know about it, yet still makes statements about top teams:

“That’s why few top-tier teams run necro: they’re very situational, and their efficacy doesn’t always depend on the player’s skill. (Well it always depends on the player’s skill, but it’s subject to a large extent on factors the player can’t control.)”

So here are a couple of teams: Drunk Harem ran with Prototype, though he generally runs with Team Exaltation, Peanut Butter Jelly Times, Hashtag Brownies, and then there are a couple of others like Life (I believe Ironnical plays with them) and Nonstop Nonsense. Sure lots of teams don’t run necromancer, but imo that’s because of their set up: ie. if you run mesmer+thief combo, you’d rather have guard + ward + ele, all classes that can survive outnumbered for longer than a necro and are a bit more mobile.

GOOD PLAYERS CREATE THE SITUATIONS. So they rotate properly into small fights they have the advantage in. You are correct their efficacy is based on personal skill. Every class has problems with some of their utility skills being on cool down sometimes. I don’t know what other factors you’re talking about?

Again, I think people are playing necromancer badly, and then complaining about the class. Sure it has weaknesses, but it has many incredible strengths.

Awesome that you guys have made this possible, and hopefully it can be done for esl weekly cups as well.

Nexed you don’t seem to understand the difference, which is that corrupt boon converts boons into conditions whereas other classes merely remove boons. This therefore accounts not only for boon rip but also condition burst.

Seriously a massive L2P issue for so many people here who claim to play necromancer. This gets on my kittens.

Support for this

^Corrupt boon is an incredible threat if used correctly. You’re just wrong.

No response to my original post, but whatever. Sometimes these forums make me so sad because people blame the beautiful profession instead of their own skill level.

Best boon conversion into conditions, which is incredibly strong

Extremely strong in 1v1s (if played well)

Great pressure, whether condi or wells, in team fights

Buckets full of fear: to set up burst, interrupt stomps/ressing and actually deal damage itself

Conclusion: Moa, stop scaring people off from playing necro. They’re superbly beautiful and stronk, and not enough people play it well.

@Ravezaar 62006 full zerker necro is not ideal against strong condition classes, but it isn’t an 8/10 (you could have just written 4/5 btw), or anywhere near a certain loss. If you play well, your dps is good enough to kill a high condition player.

Lol at trying to justify the use of two signets in a pure power build. By your introduction, it seems that you are seriously using a utility slot (plague signet) as a condition cleanse and extra stun break. It’s just unnecessary. One stun break is fine, and other utility skills a more useful. Using a utility slot for a condition cleanse on 60 seconds cool down is a bit of a joke. It’s definitely not ideal to have only one 3 condition transfer on staff, and 1 mass condition cleanse (your heal) but that’s just something you need to l2p around when running a full power necro.

You claim 3 stun breaks in your build. Do you believe signet of spite is a stun break? Not to be used in a power build. Just no. Spectral recall is just a port, not a stun break. So I only see 2.

You claim condition spam. Look at your stats. None of your gear is specced for condition damage. Just useless, when instead you could take a couple of wells for great dps.

Your build is a joke. This must be a troll post, right?

Yeah rubbish. Don’t use plague signet and signet of spite with a power build; that’s ridiculous. This is for wvw, and even for 1v1s or small party roaming, you can use wells, or spectral skills instead.

Trait spread is rubbish as well imo. 62006 is still great for small party roaming or solo roaming, perhaps taking some spectral traits or going 44006 perhaps if solo. Pack runes are nice though.

I think 4 power, 1 condi at then end (Proto still on condi), but yeah that was the most fun.

Swisslips not for much longer (break time)… But other necros who play with top EU teams: Moa, Djooce, and I guess you could probably say Forsaker and Ironical. Oh and Teh Prototype with Team Exaltation. So quite a few.

Just standard builds.

^Nope, Five Average Guys’ mesmer (sorry I forgot his name) beautifully agreed to honour our dc, and play 4v4. Very noble of them.

We won anyways, Holl, so dw. It was pretty fun. Xerrex should post his videos here to answer all the scrubs crying about necros being rubbish atm and unplayable.

I agree that a flashing yellow message ig would be best.

Whisper those people ig, I’ll poke people in ts. I’m free, and there should be enough notice to get 5 tonight I believe.

^That’s a fact? Tell us the evidence for that incredibly general statement.

Interesting build, but definitely has quite a few weaknesses, which weren’t shown in your video because you were fighting atrocious players/dummies.

1. I too played around with no staff, but found that the increased range and defensive abilities are necessary when playing against better players.

2. Your build has no condition transfer.

3. Because you’re not running 2 wells with ground targeting, and no staff, your aoe on point is much lower, and to actually do your damage, you’ll need to be on or very close to the point most of the time. Against better players, this will make you a very easy target. The build is therefore much better suited for 1v1s, or off-point fighting, however I think this is the wrong way to play power necro. It is better played as a quick team fight turn around, with its huge aoe on point damage and direct burst.

4. Lich can still turn a fight around. Golem is of course better for 1v1s, as I feel your build is made for, though I think this is the wrong decision. In a larger team fight, your golem will die instantly.

I doubt this build expresses my point perfectly, so just whisper me ig if you want to talk about it.

Love you Sputti. Waffle and ChroNick do often watch as well. One idea is to just ask at the beginning of a match in map chat if it’s ok to stream a game, especially when we’re pugging, it’s fine to stream it. Just ask, and I think very frequently we’ll say yes.

50?

And anyhow, many will say that they’re not catered for especially. Weekly balance changes would be much more desired by the pvp-ers. Promoting some sort of competitive play in a game (eg. ToG) can help to draw players into the game and help the longevity of the game by rewarding the players who can play the game best.

Aeroxe is on point, though I believe the last line of 3) is a little off. Even if they are bad (and everyone knows it) and claim they are good, there is still no reason to abuse them.

You won’t be limited by your class for PVP. Any class is viable depending on the team set up and personal skill level. A skilled player can make any class viable at top tier pvp.

It would be useful if we could have some dates for when people want to do this. I’ll probably be free tonight for a bit if other people want to run a full necro team, just whisper me tonight.

Otherwise, I believe Brandon indicated Wednesday, however I, and some others, may be busy then.

Just whisper me if yo free/when yo’ll be free next week, ‘cause I’m taking a 2 month break in a week, and would be cool to play the full necro team, with good necros, before I take a break.

Too much info, ik.

OP must be high. Loads of top teams in EU who don’t run thief + mesmer combo.

^Laaw doesn’t play Necro. I repeat, do not allow the Laaw. He will come on MM and claim he’s the best MM multiverse.

And also, why 2 spots for China, but only 1 for EU and NA? That’s just free money to the Chinese teams for turning up and getting 3rd and 4th.

^That’s bullkitten. Pure bullkitten.

Or just the option to spectate games with a 2 minute delay or so. That might work.

Possibly up for EU, throw me a whisper ig when you’re doing it.

^Like rank means anything…

^Sven, you’re meant to be working. Get back to it.