Guild Wars 2

My recommended use for the frost bow is as a situational utility skill. If you find yourself in the right situation, use it, blow through your rotation (3542 for me) then immediately drop it and go back to normal skills. You can pick up the second one about ~20 seconds later to repeat.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Cygnus.6903:

dancingmonkey.4902:

@Cygnus
Then why did you make an effort to differentiate what you feel power vs condition builds can do on a profession if it is off topic?

Because conditions are easier to play, and that is on topic.

How so? I would like a detailed explanation on this if you can. Conditions still require the same button press to act, and the same need to land the skill to apply them, that a direct damage skill does. Only the direct damage skill has the advantage of being instantly applied. The condition attack runs the risk of being cleansed and negated fully or only applying half damage in the case of something like melandru+lemongrass comb. With those facts in mind, I find it diffucult to see merit in your claim.

In the scope of skill, neither power or condition damage is more or less conducive to skill then the other as a whole. Personally I feel specific builds and the weapons/utilities in said build much more skill related then a specif damage type. As well, I feel the skill level varies with in a profession, based on the type of build set up.

Conditions are higher damage per attack (not second, don’t get confused there), which puts greater pressure on enemies, have greater access to control condis, and are somewhat easier to land in general (read: marks are really, really easy to land, being essentially non-projectile 1200-range AoEs with very similar appearances to each other that can additionally be unblockable, and hit instantly after cast).

Zach.3264:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Elementalists have some of the most painful levelling in the game.
This is for a few reasons:
1) Power is loaded into higher-tier traits, rather than utilities. For warriors, you can solo half the game with just endure pain and healsig, but ele’s have nothing on that level.
2) Eles have the lowest health/armor in the game, so it’s just more difficult to survive in general.
3) They are also the most mechanically difficult class, just to achieve a power level comparable to any other class. Thieves would probably take second, but it’s pretty darn easy to repeatedly stealth on the ai, who refuse to do anything about you while you’re invisible.
As a part of this, abilities aren’t particularly viable on their own and need to be used in conjunction with others.

I’d say Mesmers are the hardest to level.
Most of their damage comes from Phantasms, and they don’t get any significant buffs until much higher levels. I know leveling my Mesmer was an absolute pain, and I hear it’s even worse now with trait changes.

Ehh, I have both an ele and a mes level 80.
I figured out how to get aggro onto my illusions pretty early, made it much easier.

Elementalists have some of the most painful levelling in the game.
This is for a few reasons:
1) Power is loaded into higher-tier traits, rather than utilities. For warriors, you can solo half the game with just endure pain and healsig, but ele’s have nothing on that level.
2) Eles have the lowest health/armor in the game, so it’s just more difficult to survive in general.
3) They are also the most mechanically difficult class, just to achieve a power level comparable to any other class. Thieves would probably take second, but it’s pretty darn easy to repeatedly stealth on the ai, who refuse to do anything about you while you’re invisible.
As a part of this, abilities aren’t particularly viable on their own and need to be used in conjunction with others.

Paavotar.3971:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

why do elementalist have 20 weapon skills while everyone else (except engineer) have 10 weapon skills?

why does everyone else have the ability to change range at choice during combat and have MUCH lower cool downs on weapon skills, heals, utilities, defensive skills, elites….

I find myself using auto attack way less on my staff ele than on my warrior.

Also eles have a heal with 15s cooldown, thats the lowest in the game (if you don’t take account passive heals what eles also have).

It’s technically a 19 second cooldown. The cooldown doesn’t start until the four second channel finishes.
Thieves have two that actually are on a 15 (16 1/4 after cast-time for one, the other is instant) second cooldown, and mesmer has one as well (also 16 1/4 after cast-time), in addition to mantra of recovery, which is weird but technically only has a ~12.5 second coooldown, and is the actual lowest heal cooldown in the game.

So, no.

Carighan.6758:

I thought all classes have an on-being-CCed trait? Mesmers copy them back to the attacker (not reflect as someone said above :P ), Rangers stealth, etc?

It would be funny if you could stack two, though. Imagine being cc’d as a mesmer and both reflecting it and making a chaos storm, or being an elementalist with tempest defense and getting a shocking aura and a static field.
Instant lockdown.

It’s actually pretty good in WvW

CptAurellian.9537:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

If content increased in difficulty, you would definitely see a greater demand for different specs in PvE. You might even get some greater team variety (though it’s nearly certain that a new best meta would solidify) because of the significant variety of roles and builds in GW2.

I think you would see something else first and foremost: An entire ocean of tears because the dungeons are impossible to complete, especially from the people who are right now calling for nerfs to the meta etc.

I would drink them and love it.
But seriously, having to struggle a little is never a bad thing in videogames. Effortless wins get boring after a while.

Bowflex.4502:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Harper- I just want to tell you as an ele main that Dragon’s Tooth won’t hit in a 2v1 any more than it will in a 1v1 or any other teamfight for that matter. It’s not quite the same style of telegraphing as Pin Down. Compare a giant flaming rock appearing over your head for a full second with a red circle to a targeted ability that only has an animation around the caster.

I get bothered when people start saying warriors have the highest telegraphing.
Giant elemental objects with sizable delays will always take the cake.

Not that this actually has any bearing on your post.

In all fairness usually you are concentrating on the player you are fighting, so many hammer attacks are completely readable telegraphs, a dragons tooth from an “outside source” when you’re focusing on your primary target, isn’t easy to see. Especially if it’s right above you. It’s not like you have to ground target it

Yeah, you’re right about that. Especially considering that you don’t need LoS to cast it either.

It was super late and I was a bit tipsy.

Harper- I just want to tell you as an ele main that Dragon’s Tooth won’t hit in a 2v1 any more than it will in a 1v1 or any other teamfight for that matter. It’s not quite the same style of telegraphing as Pin Down. Compare a giant flaming rock appearing over your head for a full second with a red circle to a targeted ability that only has an animation around the caster.

I get bothered when people start saying warriors have the highest telegraphing.
Giant elemental objects with sizable delays will always take the cake.

Not that this actually has any bearing on your post.

I think that this thread (and most of what people are saying) is mostly wrong.

There is a variety in viable combat roles. I could spec into being a very powerful support/healer as an ele or guardian, a scout as a thief (this one is pretty much useless because dungeons are the same every run, so you don’t need a scout), an interesting control/tank as a mesmer with clones, heck pretty much everyone can go full tank and just afk autoattack everything to death slowly.
You could have some amazing control builds, like a decap style engi in PvE.

The problem isn’t that these builds don’t exist, or that they aren’t strong. In fact, mixing these into your parties would probably make runs quite a bit easier. It’s just that, at the same time, they make the runs much slower.

In every RPG, people will spec to give runs the highest success rate first and foremost, and secondly the highest clear speed. This is why there is always a meta, because while many different things can get you through the dungeon, there is almost always something that will do it fastest. In GW2, however, the first requirement is pretty much null and void because the content isn’t demanding enough for there to be any uncertainty about whether a maximum DPS group can clear it, and thus the best groups are automatically DPS groups. This isn’t to say that a non-full-DPS group wouldn’t have an easier time, because it would, but it’s just unnecessary and ends up slowing down runs.

If content increased in difficulty, you would definitely see a greater demand for different specs in PvE. You might even get some greater team variety (though it’s nearly certain that a new best meta would solidify) because of the significant variety of roles and builds in GW2.

So no, trinity wouldn’t solve anything, or even change anything. Everyone would still run full DPS because healers and tanks would still be unnecessary, and you might even lose some roles that do exist now.

Splatter Paw.7238:

As a thief player i see it completely fair to lose all initiative spent on a interrupted skill. As pointed out above most our weapon skills dont have a activation timer to interrupt on. So if your good enough to bait me into using the skill and pull of the interrupt its skillfull play and i was simply outplayed and put on defense with a large chunk of initiative missing.

To be fair, I think it would probably be a good thing for skills for other classes to go on full CD when interrupted for all of these reasons, but if the small interrupted cooldown remains for them, it wouldn’t be really fair for thieves to lose full initiative.

I’m just here to point out that using 1v1s to examine balance in this game makes very little sense.
If you did, every single skill or trait with support attached would automatically be underpowered, because support doesn’t win 1v1s. 1v1s also get rid of about half the depth of the game. Things like surprise, teamfighting skills, AoE, teamcomp, map awareness, and even things like combofields are vastly different with other people.
So stop trying to balance around WvW solo roaming, because that will unbalance every other area of the game.

Master of Timespace.2548:

T raw.4658:

Currently the thief loses the initiative cost of the skill that was interrupted

So if you interrupt HS the thief loses 3 initiative. Auto attacks cost none so none is lost.

Though a thief player might know a bit more than myself

Actually heartseeker is essentially the only thief skill that causes initiative loss when interrupted. Non channeled thief skills such as blackpowder, cloack and dagger, shadow shot or larceous strike never result in initiative loss when interrupted.

Pistol whip causes initiative loss if it is interrupted during it’s evasion frame. (Interruption is still possible through say a nightmare rune fear proc.)

I guess I was wrong then.
I’m not sure that it’s entirely good to have all the initiative lost on an interrupted skill though, seeing as interrupted skills on other classes are not usually put on full cooldown (assuming non-channeled skills, of course).
Thoughts?

Just tell your friend that it’s a free horror game within their fantasy RPG.

Never turn down anything of the horror genre.

When you see a dust cloud, you jump through it, and then assume that nobody can see you.

Wow. This is easily the best build I have seen on the forums for a long time. The runes of fire combo amazingly well with bears, not to mention the amazing versatility that having two bloodlust runes on your dual longbows gives.
Magi amulets really give this build the extra oomph it needs.

What a great warrior build.

T raw.4658:

Currently the thief loses the initiative cost of the skill that was interrupted

So if you interrupt HS the thief loses 3 initiative. Auto attacks cost none so none is lost.

Though a thief player might know a bit more than myself

I think T Raw is right here, I’m pretty sure interrupted skills already lose their initiative cost.
If you want Power Block interaction, that’s something entirely different, but the thread seems to be suggesting a penalty that already exists.

It’s not only thieves and mesmers, silly. Eles, guardians, and even necros are perfectly capable of porting while immobilized.

Shanks.2907:

I really hoped this thread would have some constructive thoughts to it but as I read through it, I’m really disappointed at both sides. A bunch of bickering back and forth that supports nothing be done.

Guardians may be in a good place, for specific tasks. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t some big holes in the guardian.

Only having one condition (burning) leaves out a huge aspect of play that every other class has. Bleeding on AA and a supplementary condition on CD (torment or confusion) is necessary to bring condi builds in line. Out of the core 5 conditions that do damage, guardians have burning. While most classes have 3 or more. In a condition meta that’s effectively leaving the guardians a step behind. Sure, they can compete in other ways, but why bar one class from general gameplay?

The only arguments I hear against condi guardians are “it doesn’t fit their image” or “guardians are in a good place”.

Add that and some soft CC and guardians wouldn’t have much else to complain about.

I think both of those would need to come with new weapons simply to minimize the effect on current weapons/builds because of how balanced the class is already.

This is especially so because guardian is the single class I can point to where traditional range advantages apply, specifically because every other class has such high access to soft cc and mobility that most advantages from ranged are nearly nullified (the only real exception being ledge advantages).
Seriously, it’s the one class I can point to as never feeling unfair or faceroll, nor feeling underpowered or a free kill. While it’s fine to want more options, it really has to be done in a way that doesn’t really affect the power level of the class.

Dee Jay.2460:

“end game” is a very loose term in GW2 since there essentially isn’t any.

Pistol / Pistol is probably the Thief weapon-set that is least appealing, simply because it doesn’t have much of a niche. Anything P/P does reasonably well, other weapons do better.

Single target, ranged damage is really the only thing P/P is good at. Combined with Riccochet it has some nice AoE too, but is still beating out by just about every other weapon set in terms of damage and utility.

The whole weapon-set just doesn’t really have anything going for it. No good synergy, and no compelling play-style unless you love Unload spam.

I would say that end-game is more the entire game, rather than nonexistent. There’s a brief levelling period, an even more brief gearing period, and then you have a level 80 with full exotics, which is all you ever need (ascended is nice but unnecessary).

To answer the OP, I agree with Dee-Jay.
Firstly, by taking P/P you severely hurt your ability to stealth, which is where a good deal of thief power is loaded., though some people (not me) are good at stealthless builds.
Secondly, it tends to not have quite the oomph you need on a stealthless weapon outside of unload, which pushes you into abusing that skill. There are much better weaponsets for thief to be spamming stuff on, like s/p which has pretty much all the benefits of p/p and more (a teleport that cleanses and immobs, a better auto, and pistol whip which is generally much better than unload).

Terrahero.9358:

Minion Master Necro, meet Spamtasm Mesmer.

Goodluck ever hitting that, ever.

Have to make it an asura, too.
It would be like playing where’s waldo, except that everything is moving and kills you.

Hamster.4861:

Eles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_S3_xQ8UdA&list=PL-llHC_MT9kdRpU4txCcrPpBpo579cw0F

Zergs OP.
Seriously though, zergs make all semblance of balance disappear.

Oh god, I would be so horrifically overpowered. Just imagine the infinite crying that an ele with diamond skin, stone heart, and written in stone (that last one only for SoR so that you could just hit it whenever you got a bit too low with no regen loss). You could build full celestial, use a mix of conjures and cantrips, and just never die, ever.

What: Thief Shadowsteps working despite immobilize.
Why: I immobilize the thieves so that they stop moving, they should just be forced to take it because if I land a single immobilize skill I obviously deserve the kill.

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Infilrators-skills-break-immobilize/first#post3950140

I’ll take the liberty of posting this to the “Thief nerf wish list” if nobody else has done so already.

Technically ele does have the highest burst (though it will give you finger cramps like nothing else) but it’s something you have to sacrifice a lot for, more so than any other class, and it’s hard to make favorable trades for survivability because of how the keystone traits (and items) are laid out. It also has the highest PvE DPS with a very specific S/D or S/F (S/F tends to be a bit better just for utility) might-stacking LH build and rotation, and is the best zerg buffbot.
Elementalists suffer the fate of being horrifically difficult to balance, with twice the number of skills (or even more with conjures) that all have to be balanced so that no specific combination of them becomes overwhelmingly powerful. For the first couple of months of the game, they really were overpowered. They then got quite a few really hard nerfs that immediately moved them closer to the bottom end of balance. This last update has been the only really significant buff to them since that time, and the meta has still not settled so it’s hard to say where they’re at now.
That being said, ele is one of the few classes where skilled players can really shine. It just requires ungodly amounts of practice (more than I have, for sure, though I like to think I do well) to reach a point where you wouldn’t be better off using a meta class (except in PvE or a zerg, but those are pretty meh in difficulty to begin with).

That is my opinion on the ele, for now (and it will probably last all of a week).

K U T M.4539:

SoulSin.5682:

lordhelmos.7623:

Rune of krait basilisk spiking from stealth requires a stunbreaker, condition clear, and heal (if backstabbed) to counter. Unless your a psychic and can dodge stealthed attacks.

Spread the word, the world is full of ESPs.

I’m one.

Dodging steal since 2012

That’s a little bit more impressive. How?
It’s like dodging an arcane wave from an ele, except it isn’t always used in a combo field.

Lucentfir.7430:

You know it’s getting kind of annoying now when i visit this subform someone says that thieves need a complete/serious remake because they’re OP or toxic, but it’s sad that I’m actually a lot more scared of a staff ele in Spvp using meteor storm, or engineers in both Spvp and WvW(who has absurd sustain and condition damage) just AoE bombing areas without that much effort. Compared to other classes Thieves look and feel underpowered compared to the rest of the other classes, even more so with crit damage nerf. What makes them so overpowered to people?

It’s easy to argue that thieves are balanced, but hard to argue they are underpowered, especially when mentioning sPvP staff eles in the same sentence (it’s usually the easiest thing for a thief to kill in the game). To be fair, an excellent staff ele is something terrifying, but the average player will have a much more successful career with just about anything else, and that is mostly because of thieves (and because the average player thinks that nadoshower is their only real job).
Thieves are pretty unequivocally the best roamers in both sPvP and WvW. They have mobility (in and out of combat), disengage, and high burst damage (with the shortest burst cooldown of any class). It basically has the single best gank setup of any class (though this of course is irrelevant in WvW, you shouldn’t have any trouble playing search-and-destroy with any obvious squishies you see there).

BurrTheKing.8571:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

BurrTheKing.8571:

redslion.9675:

Play necro and let your minions skillfully eat enemies.XD

Everyone knows that builds with AI such as Minions, Spirits, Phantasms, and Spirit Weapons are the pinnacle of skill!

Don’t forget playing an ds ele and skillfully being immune to and unkillable by any condition build!

…actually I’m kind of fine with that. It’s only unkillable if the condi user goes at them alone. I’m hoping that Ele becomes the answer to the current condi spam meta like Hammer Warrior was the answer before.

I’m just not happy with a) the hardcounteriness of it, and b) the passivity of it.
I think both are something the game could use a bit less of.

BurrTheKing.8571:

redslion.9675:

Play necro and let your minions skillfully eat enemies.XD

Everyone knows that builds with AI such as Minions, Spirits, Phantasms, and Spirit Weapons are the pinnacle of skill!

Don’t forget playing an ds ele and skillfully being immune to and unkillable by any condition build!

Zephyrus.9680:

Well coming back from a 4-5 month break I’m seeing better results in sPvP with d/d and overall weaker in WvW with staff due to the massive hit in crit damage. But I can’t say for sure since it seems sPvP is flooded really really bad players.

It is, I was able to survive ~25 seconds today against four players sitting in earth with stone heart, two cantrips, and earth shield. Never even switched attunements.

LightningBlaze.4913:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

LightningBlaze.4913:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Lol what a lame logic to consider burst cheesy. Must be coming from players that are too afraid to die easily and thus spec more towards defense than offense. Instead on relying in their players skills to survive more with fewer defense no they rely heavily in their traits, utilities and defensive stats. Being a punching bag is even more lame.

I consider fresh air burst to be cheesy, mostly because of how much using it disadvantages you in anything other than a prearranged 1v1, but also because it is a burst with a pretty big amount of instant damage.
Staff burst is better, because it has so many built in tools and requires a bit more effort to set up, while being less of a one-and-done build.
Dagger burst is rare because of melee.

I consider builds that evolve around the arcana, water tree and on defensive stats to be cheesy too because they require no effort to stay alive even without dodging and predicting your opponent next move right. Any build disadvantages you on anything other than 1v1 against 2 or more GOOD players by yourself. Group/zerg it is easy and require a bit of thinking instead of mindlessly jumping in the front line to get hammered. Against bad players winning outnumbered (by yourself) is always possible regardless of what build you use.

You misunderstand me. By “anything other than a prearranged 1v1” I mean any situation where-

You are surprised.
Teamfights (because you take down one person, maybe, then immediately die or just have nothing left).
Any time relatively close to a fight (because of the high CD of the burst).
Any time something exists that can take your burst and live (so pretty much any condi build and any bunker).

It’s a spec designed to win one 1v1 every 40+ seconds if you get the drop on the other guy, which is why it isn’t particularly amazing in any form of the game, but it will always win that 1v1 unless the other guy times a dodge.
That’s why I consider it cheesy. The enemy dodges once and you lose, if they outlive it you lose, if they don’t do either you win.

I did misinterpret your post. It varies greatly on the type of builds. There are glassy and non glassy burst builds. One can be melt back if the burst is endured or avoided while the other can withstand and retry until his oponente is down. Honestly aside
of a few full búnker extremely high condition damage, constant stealth based mesmers, there hasn’t been any other bunker type I haven’t been able to defeat with my main burst build but still get defeated. There are also bunker constant healing encounters that never end until more players join in. Probably now it could be a different story. After the patch I sacrificed more defense to gain close to the amount of burst I had before. It’s too soon to conclude.The rotations can be predictable but you can also play with your opponent’s mind and have him waste a dodge or two before you even initialize the combos.

Yeah, I was more referring to the one build that people complain about (for various reasons, I have even seen it called OP), that can do upwards of 22k near-instant damage, not fresh air in general. That doesn’t seem to be what you use.

Nope, elemental surge is as meh as ever, mostly because arcane power uses up multiple charges for spells that hit multiple people or even pets, so one AoE uses up everything.
It was pretty funny to watch people just be unable to kill me while I froze them in place repeatedly, though. I even took earth shield and tornado for maximum troll.

dancingmonkey.4902:

K U T M.4539:

Spammable immobs:

Thief, ele, ranger, warrior, engineer.

The difference between those stun chains and the immob stacking is that they had to wait until the other persons cc was over to get the maximum effect. With immob stacking, you don’t have to wait.

You sir, do not comprehend the definition of spamable then.

Please link the immobilize spam build for each of those professions.

I don’t know about ranger (though I hear they can stack some pretty mean immobs), warrior, or engineer, but I assume that the immobilize spam from an ele would be elemental surge arcane retribution +arcane power, possibly with some other arcane spells. With zero condi duration it would be possible to get upwards of continuous immobilization if you timed your arcane powerretribution correctly. With 40% duration (just food) you could have seven seconds of immobilization from a single utility skill (though you would need to get some five hits in while in earth attunement).

You don’t see this because arcane retribution is a passive % health proc, which are hard to use on eles, and switching evasive arcana for elemental surge sacrifices so much survivability, not to mention that earth on the whole is…
Wait a sec, stone heart. BRB I’m going to go try something.
This might be funny.

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

And again you take the easy way out.

What’s it called if you repeat the same action (aka counter arguing this same topic) over and over again expecting a different result?

If you aren’t willing to do so, don’t bother to post in the first place.

You’re trying to kill an extremely enjoyable fight for me.

ofc I’ll say something

I’m not trying to kill anything. I’m trying to promote skillful play by pointing out mechanics that don’t reward skillful play and even punish it and presenting a possible way to remedy that.

You start posting on this thread, insult me, post volumes worth of ad hominem (which you then claim is a fake latin phrase), and then avoid actually debating me on the issue at hand to the point that I begin to doubt that you actually have an argument behind all of your mindless personal attacks. Of course I’ll take issue with that.

In your ignorance you will be killing skillful counter play that currently exists. You’ve been told repeatedly how this is so. You keep choosing to ignore said counter plays and continue posting to destroy it.

You also wanna incorrectly use kewl latin phrases hoping that it will deceive people into believing your idea is something more than redressed rubbish. This also seems to be your tactic of choice when an informed person (Me) pulls your card and calls your bullkitten.

I’m liking the new appeal to the mods because I’m a mean poster tactic you seem to want to take as well.

You need to follow the ToS on these forums honestly.

First your idea is spam. We’ve all read this thread a hundred times already.

Second you’ve obviously didn’t search the forum since w/e info you need to tell you why your spam idea is bad for the game has been posted a bazillion times already.

Ad hominem is a technical term, which is by now so far dissociated from Latin that understanding what I mean by it can be likened to understanding the meaning of “P.S.”, which is an abbreviation of post script, another Latin term. It’s pretty common, to the point that I’m shocked that you think using it is an attempt to make my calling you out on doing it sound prettier.
Here’s a few links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem

More importantly, you tricked me into thinking I had actually posted something within the last month that could remotely imply that I thought thieves were OP, because there was a point in time where I legitimately thought that and posted moderately frequently on it. Turns out the last post of that nature was on February 25th, when I said that stealth was bad for the game in it’s current implementation, five pages into my post history, and I don’t remember you being around on the forums then. That makes this the first comment I’ve made on thief balance in close to two months, and I have not once claimed that thief was overpowered at any point in this thread.

So actually, every single time I have claimed that you were using ad hominem arguments in this thread I have been wrong. Ad hominem arguments, while still fallacious, are at least truthful.

Wow…..I think you should delete this one mate.

I dare you, go read through my post history. I guarantee you, you will be unable to find a post that says there is a problem with thieves outside of this thread until page five.

1) Thief because mobility and disengage. 2) Mesmer because 1v1 capabilities, which are ahead of thief but are not quite as important as the mobility they lack. 3) Warrior because mobility and survivability. 4) Possibly necro, even with the lack of movement, because of the small group power, but I could see either engi, ele or ranger holding this place instead. Guardian, no mobility, no 1v1, no disengage.

Morsus.5106:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Morsus.5106:

One hit kills in dungeons are a major problem imo. Why bother healing in a fight with Kohler when if you don’t dodge he’ll one shot you? Healing won’t fix that.

Pro tip: Dodging fixes that problem.

Personally I like skills in which the only way to survive is to dodge. Dodge is there for a reason. Every profession has it.

This is by definition, a learn to play problem. More specifically, Learn to Dodge.

If everything in the game can be dodged, why would you ever want a healer or a tank? That’s the problem I’m referring to, as I have no problem dodging Kohler. And I doubt shouting “Learn to dodge!” is gonna res my pugs after all but me wipe :/

It’s more that even if you have a healer or a tank, dodge should still be required to a certain degree as the baseline active defense.
Going full tank is still the easiest way, it’s just a lot slower, as it should be.

Static.9841:

Dagins.5163:

@Static
I used to play it in 50-100 soloque few months ago, and it was even before initiative buff, what made it much stronger.

Stronger than what? No other weapon combo on thief….

P/P is a free kill, it’s garbage tier in tPvP.

I ran it for a while, and I agree. It also generates more complaints about spam than any other build I have played, which I don’t disagree with.

Black Teagan.9215:

Supreme.4051:

I like when someone gets killed by a thief it’s “l2p” but when a thief gets killed they are “underpowered” or other class is “OP”.

Funny, I read always the other thing.

If I kill someone, than I’m OP, but if I die that I’m a noob.
And sometimes I hear both, from the same person.

PS: Have you ever realize how small the area of BP is?
Every melee weapon have a longer range than the radius of BP and nobody force you to stay in their field. And no, I dont talk about dodges, I mean walk or run out of it.

BP always results in a blind unless dodged, because in addition to the field it fires a projectile that blinds. That is what supreme was referring to when he was talking about the difficulty of landing a knockback/pull to prevent the heartseeker, everyone knows to stay out of the red circles.

I’m not going to comment on any questions of over/underpoweredness here, it just seems like you were unaware that BP doesn’t solely rely on the AoE to blind.

For supreme, it can help to save any instant casts you might have for that moment in order to instantly remove the blind in time for you to interrupt the HS. Seeing as they are using pretty large chunks of initiative to use this combo, it should be hard to interrupt, but it is certainly possible.

T raw.4658:

In your ignorance you will be killing skillful counter play that currently exists. You’ve been told repeatedly how this is so. You keep choosing to ignore said counter plays and continue posting to destroy it.

I will give you a piece of information that someone may not have told you though. Back Stab isn’t an instant ability. It channels. That is by design to give you MORE than enough to time avoid/prepare/defend the 2nd attempt at landing one after you get the huge tell of Block/Miss/Evade/Etc.

Thank You

And this is what I wanted to hear the whole time! A counterargument that doesn’t rely on argumentative fallacies that, while still phrased in the same condescending tone present from your first post in this thread onwards, is something that can be actually discussed!
As you know, backstab has a 1/4 second cast-time , with a moderately long aftercast that prevents it from being used four times in a second (sword and shortbow have the same cast time, but lack the aftercast, by the way, and pistol ignores blind/aegis for an entirely different reason. This isn’t solely about backstab, because other stealth skills have the same issues and are powerful as well), and certainly does give enough time to dodge after a first cast. Despite this, in most cases a single dodge does not prevent the stealth attack because the skill can be used continually through even the best timed active defenses and still retain effectiveness as one of the higher damaging single skills in the game.
It just frankly doesn’t make very much sense to me to have it so that perfectly timing an active defense to avoid the skill doesn’t actually avoid the skill. In the same vein, I don’t think the traditional solutions to this problem are particularly fair either, because they just switch the sides the problem is on so that thoughtless usage of blind/aegis can hardcounter stealth however well the thief plays. So thus, I came up with my idea of having stealth attacks be usable once per stealth cast with no other change, so that even if the thief lost his stealth attack because he was outplayed or swung without being aware of what was going on he could either restealth using another skill and try again (without even leaving stealth), or use another attack, while still giving the benefit to a skilled defender of preventing a stun/damage spike/immobilize.
Now, ideally, you respond to this post explaining why I am wrong and why using backstab a second time after it has already been dodged is acceptable.

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

And again you take the easy way out.

What’s it called if you repeat the same action (aka counter arguing this same topic) over and over again expecting a different result?

If you aren’t willing to do so, don’t bother to post in the first place.

You’re trying to kill an extremely enjoyable fight for me.

ofc I’ll say something

I’m not trying to kill anything. I’m trying to promote skillful play by pointing out mechanics that don’t reward skillful play and even punish it and presenting a possible way to remedy that.

You start posting on this thread, insult me, post volumes worth of ad hominem (which you then claim is a fake latin phrase), and then avoid actually debating me on the issue at hand to the point that I begin to doubt that you actually have an argument behind all of your mindless personal attacks. Of course I’ll take issue with that.

In your ignorance you will be killing skillful counter play that currently exists. You’ve been told repeatedly how this is so. You keep choosing to ignore said counter plays and continue posting to destroy it.

You also wanna incorrectly use kewl latin phrases hoping that it will deceive people into believing your idea is something more than redressed rubbish. This also seems to be your tactic of choice when an informed person (Me) pulls your card and calls your bullkitten.

I’m liking the new appeal to the mods because I’m a mean poster tactic you seem to want to take as well.

You need to follow the ToS on these forums honestly.

First your idea is spam. We’ve all read this thread a hundred times already.

Second you’ve obviously didn’t search the forum since w/e info you need to tell you why your spam idea is bad for the game has been posted a bazillion times already.

Ad hominem is a technical term, which is by now so far dissociated from Latin that understanding what I mean by it can be likened to understanding the meaning of “P.S.”, which is an abbreviation of post script, another Latin term. It’s pretty common, to the point that I’m shocked that you think using it is an attempt to make my calling you out on doing it sound prettier.
Here’s a few links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem

More importantly, you tricked me into thinking I had actually posted something within the last month that could remotely imply that I thought thieves were OP, because there was a point in time where I legitimately thought that and posted moderately frequently on it. Turns out the last post of that nature was on February 25th, when I said that stealth was bad for the game in it’s current implementation, five pages into my post history, and I don’t remember you being around on the forums then. That makes this the first comment I’ve made on thief balance in close to two months, and I have not once claimed that thief was overpowered at any point in this thread.

So actually, every single time I have claimed that you were using ad hominem arguments in this thread I have been wrong. Ad hominem arguments, while still fallacious, are at least truthful.

Forzani.2584:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Forzani.2584:

If you are going to use a conjure weapon while in earth why not fgs rather than axe ?

Because fgs is on a huge cooldown and thus cannot be used as reliably.

Good point.

I have never used axe. How does it compare to fgs for damage? Would it work better with a condition or power build?

Like all ele weapons, it is built for hybrid DPS (however viable that may be), but being a utility it does much less damage than fgs, though it does have the added utility of 50% increased range, might on auto, two fire fields, and a blast which may or may not be relevant.
Seeing as it only has burning as a condition, I would most likely build power if I wanted to use it.

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

You can’t claim ad homien if you’ve already previously proved you’re a hater only interested in destroying a class.

Actually, he can. The thread has a defined topic. You choose to ignore said topic to attack the person who started it instead. This is the perfect definition of ad honimen arguments (which is correct Latin, btw).

The topic is the same thus throwing it out applies.

If he was putting up a topic and all we knew about him was that he mained Ele/Mesmer than yes ad homien would apply.

Lets look at it this way. If a Westboro Baptist started a thread to have a “discussion” on how to change laws in regards to homosexual citizens would you listen?? Even after you saw that same person protesting homosexual rights at someone’s funeral weeks earlier???

No you wouldn’t…you’d disregard

I would listen, at least long enough to see if they actually had a new idea or if they were spouting the same BS they were before.

Given that “a new idea” is exactly what happened here in this thread, I suggest you actually try reading the OP and evaluating the idea presented instead of making the ad honimen attacks. After reading your posts in this thread, I don’t think you even know what his idea is, as you have made no reference at all to it.

There was no new idea just the same old “thieves shouldn’t spam bs”

Besides as a Necro you shouldnt be losing to thieves 1v1

I was so excited! This is your first post in this entire thread that actually addressed any part of my argument, but then you had to follow it up with yet another ad hominem that additionally assumed something never stated or even implied.

At least I have an actual argument to respond to now, though.
You are entirely correct in saying that I share a premise with other ideas (that is, that repeatedly pressing 1 to ignore aegis/blind/dodging for a powerful attack is probably not the best example of intelligent play ever), however I did propose something I think is a more fair solution to the perceived problem than previously suggested ones.
So to make this perfectly clear, do you think that backstabbing through active defenses with little to no drawback is a good thing? Wouldn’t it be better for well-timed active defenses to prevent such a strong attack?

Edit: To the post you made while I was making this one, I simply would like flaming to stay out of this thread (which is essentially what your arguments here boil down to, and I will admit some of my posts as well), because it deters people who actually have something to say about the idea itself, be it good or bad, from posting. Again, it would make me very happy if a mod could delete the flaming.

There is no response to make that all the people who actually play thieves haven’t already said on the subject the last 12 times it was posted. You refuse to listen and repost the same crap in a different thread

So now It’s simple.

L2p

I did and guess what?? Thieves are actually fun to fight…Scratch that GOOD thieves are fun to fight. Average thief is a free kill tbh. Heck all but the best are free kills

Y

And again you take the easy way out.

What’s it called if you repeat the same action (aka counter arguing this same topic) over and over again expecting a different result?

If you aren’t willing to do so, don’t bother to post in the first place.

You’re trying to kill an extremely enjoyable fight for me.

ofc I’ll say something

I’m not trying to kill anything. I’m trying to promote skillful play by pointing out mechanics that don’t reward skillful play and even punish it and presenting a possible way to remedy that.

You start posting on this thread, insult me, post volumes worth of ad hominem (which you then claim is a fake latin phrase), and then avoid actually debating me on the issue at hand to the point that I begin to doubt that you actually have an argument behind all of your mindless personal attacks. Of course I’ll take issue with that.

Forzani.2584:

If you are going to use a conjure weapon while in earth why not fgs rather than axe ?

Because fgs is on a huge cooldown and thus cannot be used as reliably.

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

You can’t claim ad homien if you’ve already previously proved you’re a hater only interested in destroying a class.

Actually, he can. The thread has a defined topic. You choose to ignore said topic to attack the person who started it instead. This is the perfect definition of ad honimen arguments (which is correct Latin, btw).

The topic is the same thus throwing it out applies.

If he was putting up a topic and all we knew about him was that he mained Ele/Mesmer than yes ad homien would apply.

Lets look at it this way. If a Westboro Baptist started a thread to have a “discussion” on how to change laws in regards to homosexual citizens would you listen?? Even after you saw that same person protesting homosexual rights at someone’s funeral weeks earlier???

No you wouldn’t…you’d disregard

I would listen, at least long enough to see if they actually had a new idea or if they were spouting the same BS they were before.

Given that “a new idea” is exactly what happened here in this thread, I suggest you actually try reading the OP and evaluating the idea presented instead of making the ad honimen attacks. After reading your posts in this thread, I don’t think you even know what his idea is, as you have made no reference at all to it.

There was no new idea just the same old “thieves shouldn’t spam bs”

Besides as a Necro you shouldnt be losing to thieves 1v1

I was so excited! This is your first post in this entire thread that actually addressed any part of my argument, but then you had to follow it up with yet another ad hominem that additionally assumed something never stated or even implied.

At least I have an actual argument to respond to now, though.
You are entirely correct in saying that I share a premise with other ideas (that is, that repeatedly pressing 1 to ignore aegis/blind/dodging for a powerful attack is probably not the best example of intelligent play ever), however I did propose something I think is a more fair solution to the perceived problem than previously suggested ones.
So to make this perfectly clear, do you think that backstabbing through active defenses with little to no drawback is a good thing? Wouldn’t it be better for well-timed active defenses to prevent such a strong attack?

Edit: To the post you made while I was making this one, I simply would like flaming to stay out of this thread (which is essentially what your arguments here boil down to, and I will admit some of my posts as well), because it deters people who actually have something to say about the idea itself, be it good or bad, from posting. Again, it would make me very happy if a mod could delete the flaming.

There is no response to make that all the people who actually play thieves haven’t already said on the subject the last 12 times it was posted. You refuse to listen and repost the same crap in a different thread

So now It’s simple.

L2p

I did and guess what?? Thieves are actually fun to fight…Scratch that GOOD thieves are fun to fight. Average thief is a free kill tbh. Heck all but the best are free kills

Y

And again you take the easy way out.

What’s it called if you repeat the same action (aka counter arguing this same topic) over and over again expecting a different result?

If you aren’t willing to do so, don’t bother to post in the first place.

T raw.4658:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

You can’t claim ad homien if you’ve already previously proved you’re a hater only interested in destroying a class.

Actually, he can. The thread has a defined topic. You choose to ignore said topic to attack the person who started it instead. This is the perfect definition of ad honimen arguments (which is correct Latin, btw).

The topic is the same thus throwing it out applies.

If he was putting up a topic and all we knew about him was that he mained Ele/Mesmer than yes ad homien would apply.

Lets look at it this way. If a Westboro Baptist started a thread to have a “discussion” on how to change laws in regards to homosexual citizens would you listen?? Even after you saw that same person protesting homosexual rights at someone’s funeral weeks earlier???

No you wouldn’t…you’d disregard

I would listen, at least long enough to see if they actually had a new idea or if they were spouting the same BS they were before.

Given that “a new idea” is exactly what happened here in this thread, I suggest you actually try reading the OP and evaluating the idea presented instead of making the ad honimen attacks. After reading your posts in this thread, I don’t think you even know what his idea is, as you have made no reference at all to it.

There was no new idea just the same old “thieves shouldn’t spam bs”

Besides as a Necro you shouldnt be losing to thieves 1v1

I was so excited! This is your first post in this entire thread that actually addressed any part of my argument, but then you had to follow it up with yet another ad hominem that additionally assumed something never stated or even implied.

At least I have an actual argument to respond to now, though.
You are entirely correct in saying that I share a premise with other ideas (that is, that repeatedly pressing 1 to ignore aegis/blind/dodging for a powerful attack is probably not the best example of intelligent play ever), however I did propose something I think is a more fair solution to the perceived problem than previously suggested ones.
So to make this perfectly clear, do you think that backstabbing through active defenses with little to no drawback is a good thing? Wouldn’t it be better for well-timed active defenses to prevent such a strong attack?

Edit: To the post you made while I was making this one, I simply would like flaming to stay out of this thread (which is essentially what your arguments here boil down to, and I will admit some of my posts as well), because it deters people who actually have something to say about the idea itself, be it good or bad, from posting. Again, it would make me very happy if a mod could delete the flaming.

There is no response to make that all the people who actually play thieves haven’t already said on the subject the last 12 times it was posted. You refuse to listen and repost the same crap in a different thread

So now It’s simple.

L2p

I did and guess what?? Thieves are actually fun to fight…Scratch that GOOD thieves are fun to fight. Average thief is a free kill tbh. Heck all but the best are free kills

Y

And again you take the easy way out.

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

You can’t claim ad homien if you’ve already previously proved you’re a hater only interested in destroying a class.

Actually, he can. The thread has a defined topic. You choose to ignore said topic to attack the person who started it instead. This is the perfect definition of ad honimen arguments (which is correct Latin, btw).

The topic is the same thus throwing it out applies.

If he was putting up a topic and all we knew about him was that he mained Ele/Mesmer than yes ad homien would apply.

Lets look at it this way. If a Westboro Baptist started a thread to have a “discussion” on how to change laws in regards to homosexual citizens would you listen?? Even after you saw that same person protesting homosexual rights at someone’s funeral weeks earlier???

No you wouldn’t…you’d disregard

I would listen, at least long enough to see if they actually had a new idea or if they were spouting the same BS they were before.

Given that “a new idea” is exactly what happened here in this thread, I suggest you actually try reading the OP and evaluating the idea presented instead of making the ad honimen attacks. After reading your posts in this thread, I don’t think you even know what his idea is, as you have made no reference at all to it.

There was no new idea just the same old “thieves shouldn’t spam bs”

Besides as a Necro you shouldnt be losing to thieves 1v1

I was so excited! This is your first post in this entire thread that actually addressed any part of my argument, but then you had to follow it up with yet another ad hominem that additionally assumed something never stated or even implied.

At least I have an actual argument to respond to now, though.
You are entirely correct in saying that I share a premise with other ideas (that is, that repeatedly pressing 1 to ignore aegis/blind/dodging for a powerful attack is probably not the best example of intelligent play ever), however I did propose something I think is a more fair solution to the perceived problem than previously suggested ones.
So to make this perfectly clear, do you think that backstabbing through active defenses with little to no drawback is a good thing? Wouldn’t it be better for well-timed active defenses to prevent such a strong attack?

Edit: To the post you made while I was making this one, I simply would like flaming to stay out of this thread (which is essentially what your arguments here boil down to, and I will admit some of my posts as well), because it deters people who actually have something to say about the idea itself, be it good or bad, from posting. Again, it would make me very happy if a mod could delete the flaming.

I just think that the AI and NPC skills should be improved to the point that surviving in GC becomes something actually difficult, though not impossible.
Then people can choose defensive stats if the need to, rather than never needing to.

T raw.4658:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

T raw.4658:

You can’t claim ad homien if you’ve already previously proved you’re a hater only interested in destroying a class.

Actually, he can. The thread has a defined topic. You choose to ignore said topic to attack the person who started it instead. This is the perfect definition of ad honimen arguments (which is correct Latin, btw).

The topic is the same thus throwing it out applies.

If he was putting up a topic and all we knew about him was that he mained Ele/Mesmer than yes ad homien would apply.

Lets look at it this way. If a Westboro Baptist started a thread to have a “discussion” on how to change laws in regards to homosexual citizens would you listen?? Even after you saw that same person protesting homosexual rights at someone’s funeral weeks earlier???

No you wouldn’t…you’d disregard

To use your example, and assuming you are for gay rights, if a Westboro Baptist church member turned around and began to promote gay marriage, would he still be wrong?

Now before you get your panties in a bundle, I do understand that that is not a metaphor for what I am doing. But immediately assuming I am wrong because of any prior post I have made, and then attempting to convince everyone else of the same without actually considering my argument is blatantly idiotic, especially considering your insistence that attacking someone’s person instead of their argument is not ad hominem, despite the fact that the one and only definition of ad hominem is to reject an argument on the basis of the arguer’s personal characteristics.

More importantly than arguing the basics of debate with someone who clearly is incapable of comprehending them for reasons beyond my knowledge, I ask that a moderator remove this post and all other similarly off-topic/flamey posts from this thread.
Thank you in advance.