Guild Wars 2

tencoderiot.6430:

That was quite the in depth analysis. What would your build look like with this setup I’m curious to know.

Beware the walls of text…

tencoderiot.6430:

So I’m assuming Rabid stats are not what I want to go with. I’ve been hearing that from several places. Before I invest all my time and gold into getting a different set what’s the ideal way to go here? I’ve seen Berserker, Knight, and everything in between.

You can trait into Inventions and wear Knights/Soldier gear to start but you should view these decisions as training wheels to ease the learning curve of the game. Not everybody has to hit like an Axe Warrior in PvE, but you should be mindful of your damage output nonetheless.

I wear full Berserker on my Engineer and survive even the toughest PvE content just fine.

tencoderiot.6430:

Can someone explain exactly why condition damage doesn’t matter in this case? I’m assuming it has to do with the function of how the ticks work. I was under the impression that it was mandatory for this build as it increased the damage output as well as duration.

Because the gain gearing for Power and Critical Damage is significantly higher than what you gain gearing for Condition Damage.

Burning does 328 base damage at level 80, and only scales beyond that by 25% of your Condition Damage stat. A full set of Rabid gear (with Ascended) will net you about 1100 Condition Damage. That means you’re only adding 275 damage per second to your Burn.

Compare that to Berserker, which gives you 1100 Power.

Damage is calculated by taking Weapon Strength (969 for the FT) and multiplying it by the Power Coefficient of a skill. If you have around 2000 Power with a full Berserker set, and use Flame Jet as a base of comparison (1.5), that means your Flame Jet will dish out roughly 1118 damage with no crits on a target with 2600 armor using the formula.

(Weapon Strength x Power x Skill Coeff.)/(Target’s Armor)

But if you take away that 1100 Power, and are left with 900, your Flame Jet will dish out 503 damage instead with no crits. That is a loss of over 600 damage wearing Rabid, and that is not even taking into consideration the difference in damage from critical hits—which would put an even bigger edge over Rabid due to Berserker’s Critical Damage increase.

More importantly, you have to be mindful of how Burning as a condition works. It’s not like Bleeding where the highest damage bleeds get priority. Burning stacks by duration, meaning any time you use a skill that burns, that Burning condition is entering a queue. It’s not a reliable method for DPS, especially when you consider that you’re not the only person applying burning (i.e., Guardians burn targets with every fifth attack).

A third reason is the fact that many dungeons and fractals in the game involve destroying inanimate objects. Inanimate objects are immune to conditions.

Xhyros.1340:

Moka.9641:

I do that very often too, but retaliation hurts really bad. I must often takes short pauses to heal myself before going in again. 5-6 guardians/warriors hitting the door with retaliation, Attack #1 flame thrower = 10hits. 10hits x 5-6 ppl with retaliation = OUCH

It hits 3 people per attack, not 5 or 6. So you’ll only take THIRTY TICKS OF RETALIATION per full channeled attack. If you hit a ram, then TWENTY TICKS OF RETALIATION. If you hit two rams… Well you can do the math at this point.

In this thread: RETALIATION IS ON EVERYBODY. FOREVER. ALWAYS. BECAUSE CAPSLOCK.

Pistol/Shield is good if you’re focused on full support, but the Rifle is significantly more powerful in terms of damage.

Explosive Shot is a hysterically bad auto-attack, and the Bleeding on it stacks poorly compared to most other options that we have. Even a Flamethrower with Sharpshooter probably does a better job, and the Bleeding damage with that kit goes totally unnoticed.

Poison Dart Volley actually scales better with Power than it does with Condition Damage, precisely because Poison is not a damage condition but a utility condition with its healing reduction. With 2000 Power, Poison Dart Volley regularly does more than 4000 damage for me, and it just gets increasingly more ridiculous as I stack Might and Fury. Given its long cast time, it’s not as good as it sounds, but it still contributes more through direct damage than it does through conditions.

Static Shot is kind of weird, because I use it more for its Blind than I do for its Confusion. 2 stacks is nothing to write home about, and they disappear too quickly.

Really, people generally use the Pistol/Shield combo because of the Shield and not the Pistol. If they come out with more 1H weapons for the Engineer, I see the Pistol being rarely used outside of condi builds.

Blunderbuss and Jump Shot are actually incredibly powerful skills and scale very well with Power. Their burst potential is not so obvious during a long boss fight, but when clearing trash in dungeons and when solo roaming in open world content, it’s very noticeable. You will kill stuff significantly faster building the Rifle into your kit rotation than when using the Pistol/Pistol or Pistol/Shield.

Phuklix.9602:

I mainly plan on doing PvP and WvWvW.

Engineer is a top-tier PvP and WvW class. I wouldn’t worry about that.

Most of the concerns you hear are related to PvE, where the meta is currently defined by speed running content. Grenade and Bomb Engineers do their share of DPS, but running a couple Warriors in a group is more efficient given the way banners work and how shout boons stack on top of each other. With Guardians and their supreme support through projectile walls, Aegis, and Protection, and Mesmers with their Mass Invisibility and Quickness, it doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for Engineers (or the other classes for that matter) to really thrive.

MonMalthias.4763:

On the plus side, Engineers aren’t as trait dependant as other classes.

Wut.

Anymras.5729:

My opinion of the armor is actually fairly lukewarm; I feel we should be heavy armor, but I’m not that worried about it.

Is this because you are aware that the class was once considered to be in the heavy armor tier?

I never played the beta or kept track of the game. I played GW1, heard this was coming out, and picked it up. I chose the Engineer first and loved it immediately. Even after leveling probably the two strongest classes in the game, Guardian and Warrior, I still prefer playing my Engineer in PvE, PvP, or WvW.

It never crossed my mind ever that we should ever be a heavy armor class, or that the class was once considered one until someone told me. And even still I think trench coats and goggles fit the class more than plate and chainmail. These assertions that we belong as a heavy armor class just don’t resonate with me at all.

Anymras.5729:

Some simply don’t like using Kits.

So what is it you actually like about the Engineer? You seem negative about most elements of the class.

Lightsbane.9012:

Phineas Poe.3018:

1. Trait for Juggernaut.
2. Equip the Flamethrower.
3. ????
4. You are now a heavy armor class.

1. no thanks, i’d rather just use the rifle
2. see above
3. ????
4. pie.

Okay. Then don’t use it. I was just establishing how little separates the armor tiers. The difference between medium armor classes and heavy armor classes is literally 147 Toughness, and many traits like Juggernaut match or exceed that difference in armor (+200 Toughness for Jugg’s case).

I just don’t see this as a change being made. I love the way my Engineer looks, and I love the way he’s soon to look with his Orrian Coat to match the Hellfire Warhelm and the soon-to-be released Magitech Boots. ArenaNet has definitely done a lot to make Engineers feel comfortable with their options at the medium armor tier. And if you’re not, then I guess that sucks for you. I don’t happen to like very much of most of the light armor in this game, but I’m not going to go around demanding that Elementalist be able to wear plate armor because of it.

But if it’s not about cosmetics, and instead about “balance,” I think it’s important to remember that we have more than plenty damage mitigation traits out there; you can lower damage taken by 53% whenever you’re thrown to the ground between Protection Injection and Stabilized Armor. You can run a build where you have a 50% chance to apply a 3 second Blind every 10 when hit by a melee attack. You can receive Aegis and Protection when critically hit.

Our sustainability is incredible, even despite our middle tier health and medium armor, but only if you trait for it. A Guardian with zero points in Valor or Honor, with full Berserker is not going to be able to tank as well as one that runs 0/0/30/30/10 with full Knight gear.

It’s a needless change. You can choose to run the Rifle over the FT and then betch about your defensive attributes, but recognize you’re no different than a Warrior refusing to use his Axe and then complain that the Mace doesn’t do enough damage and that the class needs a buff.

1. Trait for Juggernaut.
2. Equip the Flamethrower.
3. ????
4. You are now a heavy armor class.

DrMatt.9408:

Also if the battle turns into a lagfest, its easier to use the ff than grenade kit, which is 1 of the reasons I changed the first place.

Precisely. This.

I know that the Grenade Kit on paper seems like a good option. But when attacking a Garrison? Defending Stonemist? I’ve tried wielding it in WvW and I just don’t think it’s very good in large scale combat. Plus Retaliation hits you just as badly with it as the Flamethrower.

OK.

I play on Sanctum of Rall. So I too have access to following along with the top-tier WvW guilds in this game. NA. SEA. EU. Whatever.

I agree with others’ assessments that the Engineer is not a top-tier profession in WvW. I generally do WvW on my Guardian. There’s just no better badge vacuum than the Staff, with its 5 target max and wide arc. The class also just mitigates damage way too well; there are many situations I survive just fine in on my Guardian that would have slaughtered my Engineer, even wielding the Flamethrower with Forge runes.

That being said, I don’t really see the need for the doom and gloom insinuating the class is useless. I still easily get my 50+ badges per hour when plowing through zergs. I have perma Swiftness for roaming. Magnet is one of the best troll skills in the Jumping Puzzles. And Engineers do have access to projectile walls (Toss Elixir U), AoE Retaliation (Super Elixir), and mass condition removal (Fumigate) for zergs. We contribute plenty. So while I agree that Guardian (and now Warrior) are much more effective at WvW, it’s not like classes are imbalanced to where the Engineer is useless.

Play whatever class you enjoy. So long as you’re getting your badges and not dying every 10 seconds, does it really matter? Like my post about PvE, people fuss so much about who is the best that they fail to grasp that so long as you effectively play your class, you’re always valuable. To any group.

I’d say we’re in a good place right now in PvE.

Elixir Gun + Healing Turret is probably the best condi removal spec in the game, and gives you room to still take a damage kit along with a utility—and your options are pretty good.

You could take the Flamethrower with Napalm, which is tied with Hallowed Ground as the longest duration Fire field with a significantly lower cooldown. You could take the Grenade Kit as one of the few options in the game with 1500 range. You could roll with the Bomb Kit, which has one of the strongest auto-attacks in the game and, unlike the Warrior Axe, is an AoE and not a cleave. It can also be traited to heal your allies.

The problem is, most of these advantages are not obvious at low levels. The Flamethrower doesn’t get good until level 50, because you need Juggernaut and Deadly Mixture. The Grenade Kit doesn’t get good until level 60, because you need Grenadier. The Bomb Kit is good while leveling, but its strength doesn’t become wholly apparent until you have +damage traits like Explosive Powder, Target The Maimed, and Enduring Damage. For all the players complaining about the Engineer’s DPS, I especially recommend trying 20/25/0/0/25 and getting back to me.

Many players dislike Engineers because they don’t understand what we can do. Hell, a lot of Engineers themselves don’t understand what we can do. They don’t properly wield the Grenade Kit and see its massive pressure potential. They don’t properly wield the FT/EG and single-handedly sustain their entire group.

But really, the average player doesn’t know about Toss Elixir U or Toss Elixir R. The average player doesn’t know what Runes of Altruism are, or that we can give 5+ seconds of Fury every 15 to our group by just switching to the Med Kit. They roll an Engineer, play it to level 10, try out a few kits, think they suck, and then go back to their Warrior or Guardian that are only so difficult as long as it takes you to fill up your bar with shouts and signets.

If someone kicks you because of the class you play then they’re misinformed. I’ve beaten every dungeon path in the game with completely random group compositions. I just take the first 4 people in my guild to respond to my invitations. And if I can do that, I don’t see why nobody else could either.

Finlay.7253:

Do you have to position yourself always in the first row or is it effective in the rear lines too?

Given the Flamethrower’s pretty short range, you should situate yourself at or near the front line. I usually try not to be the first one in, but sitting in the middle of the pack with the Flamethrower will net very poor results in bag drops.

As for how it performs: I run a build slightly different for WvW, but the Flamethrower is exceptional when built around it. It’s a great badge tagger and can be used to shoot through doors to destroy siege when defending towers.

If you find yourself getting crushed by conditions, slot in Elixir C as your third utility, or get another Engineer in your guild to tag along with you and Fumigate each other as necessary. I usually make a point to spew it around every time it’s available during zerg fights.

Conversely, if you find yourself getting crushed by a lot of direct damage—namely ranged attacks—feel free to slot in Elixir U for its Toss ability providing a projectile wall. The utility itself is less useful, but can be nice if you need the burst in damage.

Elixir B is a suitable choice for most situations in WvW. It gives you Retaliation, Swiftness, and Fury. Pretty much the best all-around elixir you can use. But there are times where other skills are preferred.

You guys have some pretty grand ideas, but I think for the sake of balance, we’re not going to see any sweeping changes in any of these additions. I see most skills addressing issues the class currently has: the lack of Stability, for example.

While the idea of a frost thrower is nice, and definitely possible given its existence already in the game as a consumable related to a renown heart in Mount Maelstrom (not to mention that boss in CM), I think they should take the time to re-enforce existing builds and addressing any weaknesses rather than just going to town and throwing everything out the window.

I personally care a whole lot more about the Engineer getting access to more weapons than I do having newer utilities. Having a Hammer would be a lot of fun.

Oh—and “acronym” and “acrostic” are not necessarily mutually exclusive terms. There is some pretty significant overlap between concepts, as is usual with most linguistic definitions of language. “GOLEM” could be considered both, though I realize it’s more fun being divisive with each other.

10/30/0/30/0 was really good when Incendiary Powder was a necessity, and when Juggernaut was a 30-point trait. Still, if you’re intent on using Elixir B, your 30 Alchemy variant is probably better suited for it. 25 Tools is more useful if you’re taking a gadget as your third utility.

If you’re willing to consider that, I think the 25 Tools build is significantly better. With the change to Rocket Boots now making them viable—and a lot of fun—I personally have dropped Incendiary Powder from my build in favor of Rocket Boots. Its toolbelt skill, Rocket Kick, effectively replaces Incendiary Powder while leveraging more damage at the same time.

Enduring Damage along with an additional 25% Critical Damage from traits means that your Flamethrower will hit significantly harder than any other variant, especially since you’re still taking advantage of Target The Maimed and Deadly Mixture.

It will still dish out marginally less damage than the Bomb Kit or Grenade Kit, but that trade-off comes with more survivability and better synergy with the Elixir Gun to prevent bloat/useless traits.

You mentioned you played a variant of my 0/25/0/20/25 setup with the FT/EG/RB combo. What was it, if you don’t mind me asking?

I’ve lately been running 0/25/15/20/10 in WvW when I feel like using the Flamethrower, but I’m curious of what other players are running and finding effective. I haven’t really been WvWing a lot lately working on my cheevo total to get as many consecutive boxes to start as possible, but I would like to get back into it soon and haven’t really settled on a distribution I liked post-patch quite yet.

Forestnator.6298:

Fury is only 5 sec – it’s viable but … yeah 5 sec.

5 seconds of Fury is pretty great if you ask me, especially since his build would have 45% Boon Duration with 30 in Alchemy (the other 15% from Altruism) for a total of 7 seconds. With a 15 second cooldown.

How is 50% upkeep of Fury on your entire group unimpressive?

Haters gonna hate.

Manuhell.2759:

A trait like Juggernaut directly opposes that juggling behaviour, though. Both the effects require you to stay in the kit for a relevant amount of time to benefit from it – either to maintain the stacks or to defend from enemies with the improved toughness.
And that means you’ll also have to use the autoattack now and then.

Why do you say that? Juggernaut stacks Might once every 3 seconds. The amount of damage you gain rotating in Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, and Acid Bomb is worth a whole lot more than staying in the Flamethrower. You swap in, you swap out. You don’t stay in the Rifle or Elixir Gun.

Use Flame Jet when nothing else is available because of Juggernaut, but don’t feel tethered by it.

Yeah, 4x Altruism is fine, but I personally think that the group Fury is the best part of the rune set.

Seetoo.9316:

You assume that all builds using kits are kit jugglers cycling the respective nukes per kit only ever using AA when all nukes are on CD.

It’s not an assumption. It’s an expectation. And I’d say it’s a reasonable one at that. Why would I want an Engineer in my group who wields multiple kits but fails to utilize them properly? It’s like Warriors who take Fast Hands but don’t actually bother swapping to their Greatsword every chance they get for Hundred Blades. It’s suboptimal. If you’re going to wield the FT and the EG together with your Rifle, you develop a rotation where you’re using your hardest hitting skills most often. That means slipping in two Flame Blasts for every Blunderbuss. Two Blunderbusses for every Jump Shot. And Acid Bomb every chance you can get, often with a Napalm after every other ground application. The Flamethrower is not a kit designed around its auto-attack being the majority of its DPS, and the “meta” FT build hasn’t had Flame Jet as its focus ever. Before sigils worked with kits, it was actually better to use the FT solely for Flame Blast and then swap to the Rifle. I have old drafts of my original build if you don’t believe me.

Flame Jet is good for one thing, and that’s stacking the eff out of Sigil of Strength very quickly with ease.

The only auto-attack we have that’s actually worth legitimately spamming is the Bomb Kit’s, and I think we all know how well that goes in most dungeons that actually matter. Enjoy that PBAoE on Twilight Arbor F/U when you’re fighting at 1200 range.

Seetoo.9316:

And it’s kinda funny too, cuz that build is the one that will likely have a kit with untraited use seeing as you can not fully trait more than 2 kit (except for FT EG since they have been a pair since last year) more so if you also cycle your actual weapon. It got easier with a couple of FT/EG traits going down a tier, but what about bomb,grenade,and tool kits?

I’m not sure what “that build” is you’re talking about, but it’s definitely not mine.

The point about my build—and most others that use the FT—is that there are no wasted traits. Every trait I take benefits the FT, the EG, and my weapon in some way or another.

If there’s any fight that I cannot wield the Flamethrower, I can easily drop Juggernaut for Rifle Mod and Fireforged for Hair Trigger. I’ve put almost surgical precision in the trait distribution to craft the best setup possible for every patch, and I don’t think there’s a single aspect of the build left untraited. I completed every single dungeon path in the game with my build without ever wasting a single trait point adapting to each boss fight.

This thread was originally about the Flamethrower and I’ve structured the majority of my argument around how to optimally play it—as I think I’ve established I’ve a pretty good idea about that. So while you may have difficulty fitting in your multi-kit builds together, that’s an issue on your side of the fence and not mine—or ours (as FT users).

Altruism procs off using your healing skill (6). This means dropping your Healing Turret, chugging Elixir H, or swapping to the Med Kit—the latest of which is the most appealing.

I couldn’t disagree more.

I currently run a build with 25 Tools, lowering Bandage Self to a 15 second cooldown. That means every 60 seconds I can replenish 20,000 health from this skill alone, excluding any procs of Inertial Converter. That, along with Drop Bandages on 12 second cooldowns, means the kit can return upwards to 35,000 health every minute.

Compare that to the Healing Turret, which provides—at most—roughly 22,000 to 25,000 health per minute. It’s true that the Healing Turret compensates the lessened heal with better condition removal, but I very rarely find myself needing the additional cleanses. Super Elixir and Drop Antidote are usually enough.

Try to preemptively drop bandages and antidotes when there’s lulls in combat or delays between boss phases. You can keep up to 9 bandages on the ground at any given time, and that can sometimes put a significant edge on the Med Kit over the Healing Turret. Your explosive bandages idea is nice, but I think this is something that needs to remain as-is.

I still use the Healing Turret against certain bosses I know will give the group condition issues, and I like its synergy with Rocket Boots in sPvP. But there are some pretty considerable strengths to the Med Kit as well, never mind its ability to stack over 2 minutes of Fury with the assistance of Altruism runes through Drop Stimulant. If the group can survive without the Water fields and condition removal, I always prioritize the Med Kit over anything else.

Seetoo.9316:

Comparisons between untraited and traited are both important. Untraited shows how something is designed baseline. All weapons are designed with untraited stats and can be used as a control group to be compared with other tests.

Such tests could include:
- AA dps untriated vs traited
- trait point efficiency (how much does it cost to raise a weapons output by how much)

What’s deceptive is omitting data because it does not support your claim, like claiming the FT as a weapon set is strong without comparing it to a baseline. Or omitting to say that the FT does less damage than both ranged and melee options an eng’g has (not even comparing to other classes)

@ guard sword comparison
I’m guessing you compared it to sword because (traitless) it also provides the 1sec burn at the end (5 hits to burn, guard sword cycle = kittens). It would be better to compare it to guard staff.

I don’t see what’s “deceptive” about comparing the damage of the Flamethrower with a trait distribution that actually fully utilizes it to the damage of the Guardian Sword with a trait distribution that fully utilizes that.

I’m all for theorycrafting, and I’m OK with recognizing how baseline damage operates, but when you frame your argument solely around untraited damage it’s really just pointless, because we do use traits, and it is important to recognize that the Engineer’s traits are generally geared toward increasing the damage output of our kits (i.e., Juggernaut, Deadly Mixture, Grenadier) while the Guardian’s traits are generally geared toward improving their tankiness/support (i.e., Altruistic Healing, Master of Consecrations, Pure of Voice).

I don’t think there’s anything essentially groundbreaking or radical in making that statement, or establishing that Engineer kits are heavily trait dependent when it comes to their damage—far more than Guardians, Warriors, or most other classes in the game.

I also think there’s plenty to be said about the value of an auto-attack chain for Engineers compared to Guardians. Like Elementalists, our auto-attack chains are placeholders for when our more powerful skills are on cooldown. Flame Jet is meant to only be used to sustain Might stacks and burning on targets when Flame Blast, Blunderbuss, and Acid Bomb are on cooldown. The weight of your auto-attack chain as a Guardian with an 8 second weapon swap by comparison should be a much more significant part of your DPS. As one that personally plays with the Hammer/Staff combo, my auto-attack chain is the majority of my DPS. Flame Jet is hardly the case for my Engineer, regardless of whether it does 4K or 7K every channel.

TTW is a 10% increase to your critical chance against targets with less than 50% health, not a 10% increase to your critical damage.

Even still, I wasn’t arguing that the FT competes with the Guardian Sword. I was saying that comparing the two of them untraited is incredibly deceptive. It’s not indicative of how the kit actually performs compared to other weapons or kits, because you’re literally leaving 40% additional damage on the table. You’re right to point out Radiant Power. I did forget about that. But the Engineer is overall more trait dependent with its kits than a Guardian is with his weapons. Would anyone reasonably argue about the Grenade Kit’s damage without taking Grenadier into consideration? Of course not. And its damage output without it is actually kind of terrible.

I agree that the Sword ultimately does more damage, but I don’t think it’s a 35% difference when all relevant buffs are active and when the kit is used effectively.

Knox.8962:

Seetoo.9316:

So where’s the math supporting either side? Some disputes are about damage. That’s pretty easy to prove.

Using the guardian 1h sword as comparison:

Untraited with the PvP soldier amulet and rune of strength:

Flame Jet – 1000 damage with a 2.5 second activation time and 1s burning at 328 damage. 1328/2.5 = 531 dps. With the 10% boost from burning foes, you’ll be at 628 dps.

1h Sword – 548, 548, 1026 over 2.5 seconds. That also provides 1s of burning, so you end up with 2450/2.5 = 980 dps. That drops to 849 dps if you don’t count the burning since it is a class mechanic.

Either way, you’ll be 25-35% less effective than the guardian sword (depending on how you consider the guardian burning) , before you factor in damage traits, and that will skew it even farther.

I still think that the kit itself is good. I just think that the AA is terrible.

Okay. Having an 80 Guardian I really have to step in here because this comparison is ridiculous.

For one thing, the Guardian 1H Sword is actually an incredible single-target DPS weapon. The first two strikes in its auto-attack chain scale by 80%, which is standard. Whatever. But the third strike, Sword Wave, scales by 150% of your Power value.

That’s almost as powerful as Flame Blast.

Now this within itself is fine because the Guardian is designed so that most of your traits are built defensively. Really, the two biggest buffs to the 1H Sword Guardian are Right-Handed Strength and Powerful Blades, which add 15% Critical and 5% Damage respectively. They also have access to Fiery Wrath, which adds 10% Damage to burning targets.

So when you walk into the Mists as a Guardian, untraited, the results you find in DPS aren’t really going to be all that different from 30 Radiance, because the majority of your traits are going to be defined by defensive boon/buff support.

Compare that to what a Flamethrower Engineer leaves on the table without their traits.

Juggernaut: 5-9 stacks of Might (175-315 Power)
Deadly Mixture: 15% additional damage
Enduring Damage: 10% additional damage
Energy Conversion Matrix: 1% additional damage per boon
Target The Maimed: 5% Damage to bleeding targets

Obviously an FT Engi has to choose between 2 of those 3 final traits and cannot have all of them, but the damage difference between an untraited/traited FT and an untraited/traited 1H Sword is really staggering. You’re not witnessing the whole picture.

Obscure One.4357:

That build would never use Frenzy

That build does use Frenzy. Just because I have a Warhorn that doesn’t mean that I am a “support” Warrior. I still take full advantage of the Warrior’s DPS slotting the majority of my points into Strength and Discipline wearing full Berserker gear. I wield an Axe along with my Warhorn and use a Greatsword as the secondary set.

I tried 30/0/0/10/30 and hated it. Heightened Focus really wasn’t that huge a boost to my DPS compared to shedding conditions with 20 Tactics—a distribution that allows me to make the most out of my Bow when necessary as well. And because of the Warhorn’s condition removal, I can freely take skills like Frenzy over Shake It Off.

I don’t disagree with you that Frenzy isn’t optimal in all situations though, and I think that could naturally be extended to Elixir U. You found a build that utilizes it. You acknowledge that a support/bunker Engineer in sPvP has no use for it—but that is precisely the line of thinking that drove me to author this thread.

It makes no sense why Elixir U “should be” a stunbreaker except for the reason that Haste/Frenzy/Quickening Zephyr are; yet as others have already illustrated, those classes can effectively work around their drawbacks. And by much the same logic, regardless of how literally you wish to take it, the same conclusions could be easily made of Elixir C and its nonexistence as a stunbreaker.

It’s something that would be an easy fix to a simple problem for bunker Engineers right now in PvP, especially since Elixir C is at many times mandatory these days against any group that has more than one Necromancer. I’m glad you found a build that utilizes Elixir U as a stunbreaker, but I need you to accept that you are a part of a very small minority of Engineers that actually bother using the skill at all in PvP. Ask all the top-ranked PvP Engis. I can guarantee you none of them use it.

Obscure One.4357:

Ultimately one cannot formulate a comparison without factoring in the trade-offs each class makes for something like a native high armor and hit point total, such as the inability to provide volumes of boons which include aegis and protection, have as many as 8 blast finishers back-to-back on a single bar, make water-fields to do all that blasting in, have a 3 second block, have a 2 second block that stuns, drop projectile blocking wall spells…oops! there I go listing the great many things Engineers can do that Warriors can’t as compensation for a disparity in native armor and hit points. Guess I couldn’t resist in the end.

My Warrior gives Fury, Might, and Vigor on top of buffing allies with an additional 150 Power, 170 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. I’d say he buffs people just fine.

I also hate to break it to you, but Warriors do have access to plenty of Protection and Aegis. Quick Breathing gives me Protection every time I cleanse Vulnerability and Aegis any time I cleanse Burning. From either Call to Arms or Charge.

And it gives them to allies, too.

Also: Warriors have access to blocks too, and can reflect projectiles with Missile Deflection.

Warrior is the ultimate PvE Hero. Crazy you’d even brag about what Engineer can do.

Obscure One.4357:

If you’re thoughts are in removing a stun break from Elixir U, it’s the removal of the stun break from both Frenzy and Haste.

You say that like Elixir U was always a stunbreaker.

It wasn’t. It was made a stunbreaker, and then ArenaNet felt like elixirs had too many—so they took one off Elixir R. You don’t find that aggravating?

Obscure One.4357:

Warriors cannot gain protection when stunned, and Thieves cannot easily gain a permanent upkeep on vigor, Engineers do both, allowing passive reduction of Elixir U’s detrimental effects.

You’re assuming that players always take those traits. They don’t.

And you assume that everyone should be happy with Elixir U because it works in your build. The fact is: you’re talking about a niche situation. Elixir U is workable as a retaliatory skill, but when I’m playing a bunker that’s hardly what I want. But unless I feel like de-capping the node I’m making every point to defend by popping Elixir S, that is really my only option as an elixir-spec Engineer.

I’m basically forced to use gadgets or the Elixir Gun as a legitimate stunbreaker, which is quite frankly unacceptable to me, because nothing about those gadgets or the Elixir Gun appeals to me in sPvP. A Warrior has the choice of running Frenzy or not. Elixir U is basically my only option right now, and it’s an unsatisfactory one.

Rozbuska.5263:

Snip.

I run the same skills in WvW: FT, EG, Rocket Boots. I prefer Rune of the Forge over Rune of Melandru, however, and I think Soldier insignia works just fine. If you have Sentinel, great, but it’s very expensive for only a marginal increase in health (while decreasing your already incredibly low damage).

Only difference in traits is that I drop Automated Response and Leg Mods in favor of Juggernaut. It’s an added 200 Toughness, and I like running Rifled Barrels for my Rifle as well. Sometimes I just have to hang back, or sometimes somebody is just a few inches outside the base range of Hip Shot.

I also think you shouldn’t use Sharpening Stone. Use Oil to boost your Crit Chance. And Omnom Compote is better, I think, than any other food if you’re a front-liner, giving you health back per kill.

Anyway, just my own contribution. It does work very well in WvW for badge collection, though I wouldn’t use it for small-group roaming, imo.

Edit: And about the Grenade Kit. In theory it’s great, but the second you deal with skill lag, your efficiency goes to kitten. Maybe for lower tier match-ups it’s good, but I find in tier 1 Stonemist battles, it’s awful, if not impossible to wield properly.

Reinforcments.5713:

Engineers are so out classed by just about class in terms of any damage it can dish out and are overcumbbered with the most head bashing control learning curve that you’d be lucky to see any of them anywhere.

If that’s how you feel about it, then maybe you should just play something else. There’s nothing wrong with leveling a Guardian or Warrior because they’re easier. I got them both to level 80 myself.

But there’s nothing wrong with the Flamethrower, and there’s nothing wrong with the Engineer on the whole. We’re in a very good place right now in pretty much every aspect of the game.

And no, the Flamethrower is not our prime DPS weapon. That would be the Bomb Kit or Grenade Kit. I just happen to like the Flamethrower because it complements the Elixir Gun best—and it’s very fun to use. But that being said, the damage on it is more than satisfactory.

Obscure One.4357:

Elixir U isn’t “similar” to other Quickness skills, it literally is other Quickness skills.

Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C are the exact same skill. They do the exact same thing. Except one breaks stuns and the other doesn’t.

The question is: Why should Elixir U be a stunbreaker like other Quickness skills when it makes just as much sense for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker like all condition converter skills? As a skill that is useful as a stunbreaker for ALL situations, and not just “Oh, I’m going to get back up and punch that guy in the teeth!”

The biggest problem with leaving Elixir U as-is, is that it doesn’t cover the bases as well as Elixir R did when it operated as a stunbreaker. The only response to this I’ve gotten was “Elixir R was too good as a stunbreaker.”

No, it really wasn’t. And now without it, many elixir-spec Engineers are at a loss for wielding a proper stunbreaker in PvP. Elixir U just makes you take more damage than you were already suffering, and Elixir C makes you de-cap a capture point.

Obscure One.4357:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Well of Power: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Contemplation of Purity: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Elixir C: Converts conditions into boons. Does not break stuns.

I don’t disagree with the assumption that Elixir U was made a stunbreaker to behave similar to other Quickness abilities. I just disagree that such a basis should be set in stone or toss around the idea that all class skills operate similarly when they provide the same effects.

Firstly removal such as Ranger and Necromancer are not equivalent to boon conversion.

Secondly you left out Signet of Stamina which also is not a stun break.

Thirdly these skills, Frenzy, Quickening Zephyr, and Haste function identically. Rangers transfer conditions to their pet, Warriors remove conditions, and Engineers convert them into booms, these are not identical effects. The only disparity within Elixir U is which of two identical effects the Engineer receives.

I think you misunderstood my point.

Signet of Stamina is not the same as Contemplation of Purity/Well of Power/Elixir C.

You’re supporting the argument that Elixir U should be left alone because as a Quickness skill, it should break stuns similar to other Quickness skills.

But there’s just as much reason for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker similar to other condition converter skills like it. There are only two other skills in the game that operate like Elixir C does. They’re both stun breakers.

ArenaNet could really go either way on this decision, and I really think that Elixir C makes more sense as a stunbreaker than Elixir U. Personal opinion.

Obscure One.4357:

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Well of Power: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Contemplation of Purity: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Elixir C: Converts conditions into boons. Does not break stuns.

I don’t disagree with the assumption that Elixir U was made a stunbreaker to behave similar to other Quickness abilities. I just disagree that such a basis should be set in stone or toss around the idea that all class skills operate similarly when they provide the same effects.

I was planning on making a full Celestial set for WvW. I’m just not sure how I would handle runes.

Nekroseth.5186:

I started engineer again…(only got to 23 last time). Warrior feels boring, and i simply cant take it….every second character i meet is a warrior….

But i deleted it again after like 20 levels…I no i just god oh god cant take kits. Why on earth they are like this? What the hell is the point of weapon skins if engineers cant use any sort of kitten ed weapon besides rifle shield and pistol?
The problem isnt even that…ok they can only use those…but why are they forced to swap to kits then contantly? There is no point of having “main” weapons.

It so kitten ED UNFAIR !!! Enginers should have the same ammount of skins on weapons, that other classes have for Gs, Hammer, Mace , Swords and so on…
Also there is no point to legendary if you constantly switch to kits anyway…..I am so sick of this….I alredy start to think of uninstall alredy….came back after a half year, but cant pick a decent class to play with again……

Dude. Relax.

They’ve already stated they’re working on a solution to allow hiding kit backpacks. They’ve also said they want to come up with ways to better personalize kit skins and give them diversity. The problem is: this is not a game-breaking issue. This is a cosmetic thing that affects 1 class in the game. It’s just not a high priority. This past patch they took the time to make gadgets viable. I’d say they’re about where they should be, now. There’s still the issue of turrets. Should cosmetic details like this take precedence to balance fixes?

Also, about legendary weapons: there are plenty of builds out there that utilize the pistol, rifle, and shield as main damage options. You don’t have to use kits, and you can easily complete every dungeon and fractal in the game without them.

mecra.5780:

Is FT competitive for PvE at 80? Or should I more consider a SD build?

That depends. If all you care about is DPS, then I would use Static Discharge with the Rifle. But with that setup, you’re squishier than a Berserker Warrior, with a lower Armor value and a weaker HP pool. Traits also get kind of difficult, especially since it’s hard to fit Speedy Kits/Infused Precision into your setup to get Vigor.

I like the Flamethrower because it still offers great DPS (especially with 25 Tools) while elevating my armor value to that of a heavy.

I find that the damage difference between the FT and Rifle SD noticeable, but is rarely fully taken advantage of. Unless you care about counting the seconds of your Arah Explorable runs, it really doesn’t matter.

Pretty much. I run full Berserker for the Flamethrower, at least on the PvE side of things.

Aberrant.6749:

Lethal Stranger.5093:

For the love of Grenth, they better not touch Rocket Boots.

Unfortunately I foresee a rocket boot nerf in the near future from what was said in the latest state of the game… by the moderator… who mains an Eng… >.<

I think you misunderstand.

If there was a nerf, it would be on Slick Shoes’ toolbelt skill, Super Speed. Not Rocket Boots. There is nothing inherently overpowered about Rocket Boots. Warriors would be able to do the same with Savage Leap if they had a double speed skill (though I think it’s actually +50%).

All skill damage is calculated by a multiplier.

(Power x Skill Coefficient x Weapon Damage Value) / (Target’s Armor Value)

When you look at a skill’s tooltip, it is rounding out your damage from hitting a target with 2600 Armor. Let’s say Flame Jet has a Skill Coefficient of 1.5 of your Power value. Let’s assume you have 2000 Power. All Engineer kits have a Weapon Damage Value of 969. The calculation would look something like this:

(2000 × 1.5 × 969) / (2600) = 1118 damage per Flame Jet (111 per tick, non-crit)

Obviously this damage is then modified by your Critical Damage, which is a base 150% multiplier to the damage of your attack. Any additional Critical Damage stacked into your gear contributes to this value, so if you have +90% Critical Damage in your gear, that means every crit is multiplied by 240%.

Velron.3729:

oh except they may revert the cast time on Elixir R.

As in, making it instantaneous?

I would love that. Would make it much more viable in PvP.

Haha, you’re welcome.

It may feel cheap, but a lot of classes utilize the trick. Warriors, for example, often do the same with Whirlwind Attack when Rush is on cooldown so that they do a few spins, swap back to Axe, and stay in melee range for the auto-attack chain. I don’t think there’s anything exploitative about it, so I don’t see this changing.

kazi.6438:

I just wanted to let everyone on this forum know how fantastic this trait is. Whenever you’re about to die, you get 3 seconds of invulnerability. You basically get a free Elixir S without having to actually equip the skill (and you don’t have to worry about “forgetting” to activate it :P ).

I really only use this trait in WvW. There are better stunbreakers for PvE and in PvP, the invulnerability makes you uncontest a capture point.

Mouhappai.5406:

For skill 2 (napalm ball), it’s practically useless since the damage it does it about the same as skill 1. It just has a slightly longer range, but casting and recovery time doesn’t seem worth it. If the enemy moves, your blast could miss completely.

I would have to see your build on this. Your Flame Blast should be totally outclassing Flame Jet. It scales significantly better with Power (and by extension Critical Damage).

You also have to look at both skills mechanically. Flame Blast is a burst damage skill that can hit up to 5 targets. Flame Jet is a channel skill that can hit 3 targets per strike. While you may think that the end result of Flame Jet matches the damage of Flame Blast, Flame Blast strikes more targets quickly—and for more damage.

Mouhappai.5406:

Skill 3 (push back effect) often knocks the enemy out just slightly beyond the range of skill 1. It’s not far enough to warrant switching back to a rifle, but yet too far out for the flamethrower’s reach. I suppose it could be used with skill 2, but I use the flamethrower to hit multiple enemies up close. This skill knocks a single enemy back, so while you are hitting the mobs near you, the knocked back enemy is safe from your flamethrower. Or, one could use skill 2 on the knocked back enemy, but the mobs near you are safe from the blast on skill 2. Either way, it puts you in a bad situation.

This is a skill that seems useless in PvE as a knockback but is totally amazing in PvP. With Fireforged Trigger, it’s a conical knockback (that can hit more than one target). It’s blockable, unlike Throw Mine, but it has no self-CC like Overcharged Shot does. For pesting the mid-point, I really like Air Blast.

In PvE, it’s best used for its projectile reflect, not its knockback.

Mouhappai.5406:

Skill 4 is a flame wall, which is useful for creating might stacks with blast combos. But like skill 2, the cast time and recovery doesn’t seem worth the use for anything else in combat besides getting might stacks.

Napalm is a skill that seems strange until you examine how its mechanics work in comparison to other Fire fields.

It has a 10 second duration, meaning it’s tied with Hallowed Ground as the longest Fire field in the entire game. Unlike a Guardian’s Hallowed Ground, however, Napalm is ground target-able without the need of any traits and has almost one-third the cooldown (80 versus 30).

And because of its long duration, there’s no fumbling around trying to fit in all your Blast finishers in under a few seconds like Fire Bomb.

I figured it would just be adding the new Living Story content, and maybe a few bug fixes. Not every patch has balance changes.

Protip: Hit your tilde key (`) after activation and you’ll interrupt the launch, or whatever you have your weapon swap button set to.

tattoohead.3217:

Hmm everyone keeps saying no one uses Elixir U. While i agree its a dangerous tool in sPvP & tPvP, in PvE and WvW its pretty BOSS you get a wall and Quickness.

I run a P/P condition Engi and sometimes a SD Rifle build. When i Run my condition build i like elixir U for the burst

I don’t disagree with any of this. Quickness is great for getting a quick Bleed stack going. And a projectile wall is useful against bosses. I’m not contesting any of this. The problem is its existence as a stunbreaker; they’re small feet with such big shoes to fill.

Dirame.8521:

Overcharged Shot, Elixir U to get back up fast and burst. I felt that’s what it was for.

tattoohead.3217:

Im an aggressive player so high risk high reward skills pay off for my play style and i would never use Elixir U defensibly its more of a finisher for me.

These are both very niche situations that work with only a handful of builds. Don’t you think that elixir-spec Engineers are being thrown a step back by being forced to use a stunbreaker that only shines in select situations compared to Elixir R?

I just don’t think it really suits the style of most Engineers, either, especially when your only alternative is Elixir S—useful in its own right in WvW but is awful for PvP Engineers because the second you go invulnerable you’re no longer contesting or holding a capture point.

So what are we left with?

tattoohead.3217:

if you need a stun break use the boots the speed boost is great in 1vx battles

Slick Shoes are a gadget, and as a gadget require different traits to be most useful from elixirs. Traits in Tools. My build does not have room for more than 10 points in Tools, which is usually taken up by Speedy Kits.

So this is not a proper solution. Are we supposed to just roll over and accept that Elixir R is no longer a stunbreaker? Okay. Whatever. I’m fine with that. But make Elixir U actually worth using as an alternative. If that cannot be done, just put it on a different skill. Put it on Elixir C or Elixir B.

That’s all I’m asking.

Being forced to rework my entire build into using skills like Slick Shoes and the Elixir Gun is not what I think ArenaNet had in mind with this patch. The idea was increasing the number of builds out there—not simply shifting the weight around.

Zak.6310:

i have heard that engis are great, but i have never heard why. i have a free char slot, and i want to know why, from people think they’re great, should i choose an engi over a warrior or necromancer? i mostly play pve, btw. thanks!

I have to admit that the Warrior is more straightforward in PvE. I find that because the skill floor is that much lower, though, the skill ceiling is too. The Warrior is made very easy to play for its simplicity, but it is at the same time both defined by and limited by it (very much like the Guardian).

The Engineer is a harder class to grapple with by comparison, which may be a frustrating experience early on. Most kits don’t really shine until well into the upper levels simply by how the class is designed; i.e., the Flamethrower is a suitable utility kit used in support of the Rifle early on, but if you invest points into Firearms and Alchemy, it can be a standalone kit.

I leveled my Engineer first so I really didn’t know any different, so I really went to town on that varied functionality. It felt great that I could fill up my utility bar with a bunch of kits that each worked as constituent elements to one another or choose to wield one and specialize around it. I liked that I could choose not to use any kits at all, and wield gadgets instead with Static Discharge for a completely different experience. Even after over 1000 hours played on my Engineer I’m still constantly tweaking and trying out new combinations in PvP and WvW. I’ve largely settled in PvE around the FT/EG, but if anyone has been following my thread over the months, it has undergone several significant revisions.

Leveling my Warrior from by comparison was very stringent. I kind of just naturally gravitated toward Axe/Axe and Greatsword, and it didn’t really feel like I had to put any thought into wielding them properly. I filled up my bar with signets and face-rolled the game to 80. Obviously my traits and utility skills changed quite a bit, but playing the Warrior at level 2 in Queensdale compared to level 80 in Arah Explorable is not as far apart as I would have liked. Similar to my Guardian, my Warrior just kind of “worked” at level 80 without putting a whole lot of thought into it.

I enjoy the class, and I enjoy its simplicity, but I always prefer a more active style of play. I mained a Bard in FFXI, constantly on the move while everyone stood around and pressed 2-3 buttons. I played an Elementalist in Guild Wars 1, offering a versatile choice of spell combinations between raw Fire power or Water hexes. In every expansion campaign I ran a different build.

I wouldn’t tell you to “go Warrior for DPS” or “go Engineer for support” because they both succeed at both roles efficiently—often at the same time. I hope, rather, that the actual play style of each class may better direct you as to which you would prefer (beyond their obvious aesthetic differences).

I haven’t played a Necromancer past level 10, so I couldn’t tell you there.

Terrahero.9358:

Luckily we got 1 extra stunbreaker on the Elixirgun so a lot of people tend to forgive Anet, for the fact we “lost” 2 stunbreakers by putting them on abilities where they just dont work or make sense.

My problem with that, though, is that the Elixir Gun is still poorly optimized for PvP. What role does it serve? I’ve been bouncing ideas off other Engineers in my guild over the past week and none of us have been able to come up with any way to make it work. The Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Flamethrower, and Tool Kit are just superior options in every way, so there’s really little reason to take the Elixir Gun at all except the novelty of it—or the gimmick in saying that you finally have a stunbreaker in your multi-kit build.

I don’t consider myself like the coolest kid ever in PvP, but every Engineer I’ve seen trying to wield the Elixir Gun just got destroyed by my bombs and Pry Bar. Super Elixir just doesn’t cleanse enough conditions that we can put out—or Necromancers for that matter. And it doesn’t provide anywhere near the amount of pressure through Weakness that a Warrior can with the help of stuns and knockdowns.

I guess I’m going a bit off-tangent here, but Healing Mist being a stunbreaker doesn’t excuse the loss of Elixir R or the current uselessness of Elixir U. I love it in PvE, because I wield the Elixir Gun as if it it’s grafted to my arm for its OP group condition removal, but it’s not an option in PvP, similar to Elixir U currently.