Guild Wars 2

80 war, ele, necro, and guard here. Pref necro> rest due to wells hitting everything and immense/near invulnerable tankiness with rabid set / chill on blind. hits and tags everything, great support. even 1v1 u’ll last quite a while and most ppl would be discouraged – and lose

What is this language

… I’m utterly lost in your exchanges at this point. Just add me, pm me, and fight me so that I can show thieves are more than decent at dueling non bunker eles and guards

Will be on later today~

Daecollo.9578:

Raptured.9307:

Daecollo.9578:

Jakeism.8136:

Daecollo.9578:

Jakeism.8136:

the majority of the people who play thieves just plain suck. i currently play two builds in spvp and they both have very high survivability and damage. it normally takes multiple opponents to take me down, unless they’re experienced

What class are you? What build do you run?

thief of course.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/PVP-bunker-dodger-build-New-Vids-Part3/first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecl8d0TQGQ

That is a WvWvW video, how do you kill anyone in SPVP. Your stealthed 90% of the time. How do you deal with trying to hold points?

No this vid is of tpvp/ spvp… He can hold points because He doesn’t rely on stealth. But, this is a build that may get hard countered by ele, guards, and esp necro.
Click on his link.

What in the world are you talking about? If he’s running this build his dmg will not use heart seekers. Learn more about thieves pls

WvW Thief, Dagger/Pistol: “Slayer” build (Perma-stealth Roaming)
Nice video!
What does this have to do with SPVP?

Ah if you are talking about his wvw video that is pretty much the build I run for spvp. It is even more effective for spvp (I runs similar one). Does crazy damage and is highly survivable. I’m surprised it isn’t nerfed, as it is the terror of hot joins.

Daecollo.9578:

Jakeism.8136:

Daecollo.9578:

Jakeism.8136:

the majority of the people who play thieves just plain suck. i currently play two builds in spvp and they both have very high survivability and damage. it normally takes multiple opponents to take me down, unless they’re experienced

What class are you? What build do you run?

thief of course.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/PVP-bunker-dodger-build-New-Vids-Part3/first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecl8d0TQGQ

That is a WvWvW video, how do you kill anyone in SPVP. Your stealthed 90% of the time. How do you deal with trying to hold points?

No this vid is of tpvp/ spvp… He can hold points because He doesn’t rely on stealth. But, this is a build that may get hard countered by ele, guards, and esp necro.
Click on his link.

What in the world are you talking about? If he’s running this build his dmg will not use heart seekers. Learn more about thieves pls

Bro, add me and fight me on your necro. Thieves are weak right now but mostly at capturing bases…
Also, there is the idea of hard countering. If you are up against a bleed thief, you are obv At an advantage. Some builds are esp. Good against others. Things are mind of meant that way.

Overall this class is still highly susceptible to cc and bursts

Only good one I can think of is well necro. Even then it is a tough fight

Lux.7169:

Arganthium.5638:

While I was stealth stomping a player once…
“The coward is strong in you”

Lolllll…

niiiiiiice ahahaha

“learn to play a real class”

Ya real men only play 5 signet warriors!

Trust me if a good thief wanted to, he can destroy anyone except bunker ele/guard/engie. The question is, is the time put in worth it.

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

I’ve tried this, but to no avail. P/D naturally relies on bleed dmg, and D/P relies on direct dmg. You cannot get the best of both worlds.

Having played 6 classes in spvp, i’d say that thieves are pretty darn hard to do well with outside of the instagib build.

uh, I run a condition well support necro and I can tell you in wvw i feel much stronger as a necro than as a d/d bunker ele. The only ones that i see there are ones that run out of keep, DIE, then mist form back into keeps. They literally don’t do jack kitten except troll, other than having one or two knockdowns. If you want CCs, bring some hammer wars and guards – they are very strong for that. Staff eles are much more useful in wvw than d/d eles. Glass thieves can be op if only the attacker lags and is caught unsuspecting of an attack – which is very situational.

Moral of story: Don’t go alone unless you run very solo-builds, and stay with zerg with aoes. You’ll be handsomely rewarded.

Nuka Cola.8520:

ahuba.6430:

Mash Hog.5672:

If you actually look at how retaliation damage is determined, you would see that the damage is determined is based on the power a character has.
Therefore someone with a super bunker build with little or no power would also in turn do low amount of retaliation damage.

it still is a cheese mechanic, just like phantasm mesmers and every spec that relies on the ai to win

Agreed. Mesmers needs to be deleted from this game. What do you think?

Lol.

In all seriousness if someone runs a retal build, guess what. They’re probably point defending! Bring a glass friend and the bunker will melt. the only way retal builds can kill you is if you’re a bad glass/bunker that is trying to face a bunker 1 on 1 while doing many hitting attacks of low dmg even though you know better not to.

I run a thief and this notion is ridiculous. Retal has been recently nerfed already. Nerf it more and you’ll just take out even more build diversity and ruin bunker roles.

ahuba.6430:

Caffynated.5713:

zone.1073:

Because when damage-dealers go all-in on them, they don’t die right away.

I’ve yet to meet a competently played bunker from any class that dies right away 1v1.

And when your whole team focuses them, they don’t die right away.

Only if your team is shockingly bad.

except even if the ele doesnt have all bunker traits and bunker amulet he still outlives everybody. a semi bunker ele can dishout 3/4 k fire 3 and 4, 4/5k fire grab, 7 k churning earth….

No. No, he does not. Glass eles die ridiculously quickly with a max hp of 10k and light armor.

The only thing “OP” about eles is that they bunker well while being more mobile than guardians. However, even now i fail to see that strength as OP. The “OPness” of the build is beyond inflated in people’s minds because bunker guards can push people off the point and keep them from going in – they don’t take the guard’s roles and take it to another level, they do it differently. Eles only get stun and 2 knockdowns total in 4 elements. If you’re saying, ele is op because the bunker doesn’t die in 1v1 situations, well, isn’t that what bunkers are good at? Look at the guardian/ bunker mesmer/engineer/necro. Same situation there. Eles melt faster than guardians under pressure, and can’t out point defense guards/engineers/ struggle against mesmers and necros – which are all very popular builds running in pvp right now.

It also irks me that people mash together rumors and different ele builds’ strengths and talk about it being how the ele is OP overall/ in that one specific build. Let me clear it up:
That build has only moderate mobility. It is more mobile than guards for sure, but it is far from the most mobile thing out there. You cannot run out of many man fights like before the March nerf anymore.
Healing is its greatest strength. Eles CAN heal from 0-100 and perhaps a little more if FULLY GEARED IN HEALING. That sacrifices a lot of dps and maximum tankiness – you run with about 13k hp with that build. In 2v1 fights especially against glasses, you melt very quickly. your dps is also far from the best. Many fights end in draws or end up very extended – but that is the point of a bunker and the ele is good at its role in a 1v1. It cannot, however, hold a point against an engineer or guardian/ better than they can.

Engineers deserve to be in that “Strong” list. Frankly, I feel adequate on my necro.

Anyways eles are far far far from being good at killing. They’re good at not dying in 1v1 situations and running away in 2v1s.

Turrents is your only viable elite… and it is the actual part of this build that melts other bunkers down because of the condition spam. They are anything but bad and every competent engineer uses this to protect bases or capture bases. The conditions that come out of them hurt people more than you realize – not in direct damage but it actually lets you hit them and they can’t recover from it.

bomber.1540:

@raptured.. Sry but u really have no idea.. None of those buffs affect this build

So you don’t use turrets?

Yet when you make all these bug fixes (buffs in themselves) and give more buffs all at once due to impetus, Anet overshot the engineer and it is now time to tone them down.

We have quite a few engineers in our guild who are happy that this update happened – PvP became much more viable for them outside of just instagib, and thus we also see a lot more engineers in upper level tPvP.

Don’t compare ele to the warrior. Warriors atm are so much worse.
Anyway, most of what you say is true however, I do think that eles are in a good place – any lower and people will become seriously frustrated considering PvP balancing would impact PvE as well and getting an ele to 80 is quite the pain already – their roles are pretty much set in PvE. In PvP, they’re far from invincible – they’re just good at maintaining a balance of mobility and tankiness in healing. Because of that low healthpool which we exchange for great healing, great healing eles are playing on the edge. Two glasses can burst down an ele very quickly given their low health pool, and they’re not as good in holding a point as a bunker guardian and definitely loses out to bunker engineers.

Right now Eles stand in my mind along the other 5 classes in tPvP potential. In SPvP, mesmer, theif, ranger, and guardians are king. If anything, it’s thieves and warriors that need to be brought up in potential for tPvP, not so much that the ele needs to be brought down if at all. It is weird that eles get so much negative attention when the other top tier tPvP classes have about the same potential and get a lot fewer complaints every update than eles

^that video was also from 3 months ago before nerfs and was played in WvW – this is sPvP, remember? Also, those reds did not seem like geared out 80s in PvE – This is impossible to do now, with competent opposing players.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2013-03-26#Engineer
Looks like a crapton of buffs to me.

Reikou.7068:

To be honest, its not your fault.

People get mad for any random reason.

Just play the way you want to play. Remember, you’re playing this game for your own enjoyment. Not the enjoyment of someone else.

This sounds like self-serving justifications for ruining other people’s fun. Calls to mind of dungeon/tpvp leavers and people who ruin duels in small player count maps.

In OP’s case, if the player count was big, they had no right to hurl insults at you. If the player count was small (1-4) and they were having duels and they let you know that, then they have a reason to be mad.

I don’t know about you guys but right now 3 mesmer/2bunker teams are still very powerful/ abundant

Zenguy.6421:

Why is no one taking the time to work out how to counter this build?

It’s not a new build. It’s taken the top Eng players months of work to get to the point that they’re successful with this build in a range of situations. A huge part of their success comes from the degree to which they’ve mastered both this build and GW2 combat in general.

If this build was truly OP, then why has it taken them so long to get it to perform like this?
Or have HGH Engs just raised the bar a bit higher for GW2 combat?

“Why is no one taking the time to work out how to counter this build?”

This is your own assumption.

“It’s not a new build. It’s taken the top Eng players months of work to get to the point that they’re successful with this build in a range of situations. A huge part of their success comes from the degree to which they’ve mastered both this build and GW2 combat in general.”

Not really – It’s basically because of the last patch buff that worked out so well for this build. “Mastering” a build is not as hard as you think. Coming up with the right build is central in determining your potential effectiveness with that build in game, once you have had a bit of experience with it.

“If this build was truly OP, then why has it taken them so long to get it to perform like this? "

You think Anet has perfect solutions in PVP balancing and timely fixes? Please roll a warrior. Some circular logic right there

“Or have HGH Engs just raised the bar a bit higher for GW2 combat?”

Yeaahh no. Reality is simple. They got buffed heavily, people noticed it and are using it very often, other people are noticing how OP it is when it is used at its potential (to the point of wrecking all other bunkers) while being tough enough so glass can’t destroy them 1v1, and other players are starting to complain about it – even some engies themselves. Other engies (need I say who?) prefer having an edge in the game are now blatantly lying about their potential or are simply bad players to say that this argument is completely false.

Ostricheggs.3742:

In a perfect world this is not a good idea. If there were multiple viable roles per class it would kill certain specs. For example, everyone “needs” a bunker guard, so if this was put into place any sort of triple med or symbol guard would be killed off just for the fact that bunker guards are more important. Same with engis. Rifle engis perform a different “role” than condi engis. Even though they work very well together, implementing this is just a recipe for making rifle invalid.

Honestly the problem comes down to eles and AOE healing. They complement each others’ sustain so much that it becomes almost insurmountable against a lot of comps. THAT is a problem and specifically a problem with tpvp and GW2’s attrition based combat.

^uh guardians can heal their teammates and give them boons too, and be better at point defending. It’s a tradeoff for mobility, which they don’t reaaally need as point defenders as much since they’re good at that job and it’s very important in tPVP. Eles before were not in a good place, but now they really are. Try playing one.

^So much agreement with that.

Lol i’m not sure if this belongs to pvp forum but that sounds about right ^
Otherwise, perhaps weapon?

Lukin.4061:

I am sick of wars, 3 in every team. The good ones put their flags all over and start kicking for huge dps, and the bad ones use charge+frenzy for an unblockable 100% kill : O

- Says the slave driver

Anyway OP this is a l2 kitten ue. If Spvp, yeah thieves and other glasses are good. Just do TPVP and l2p for real.

^That post made me lol in several ways
anyway this idea is ideal for balance but simply not feasible. A lot of people would not be able to find matches because they’re running ele, guardian, or mesmer.

basically, changes in pvp are usually nerfs – not just damage or effect, but cooldown as well. obviously pve players do not like this at all and it makes dungeoning less efficient

Just wondering, but you guys do know if everything keeps getting nerfed, a lot of things would be a hell of a lot less fun in the future? I am already noting how much weaker i feel in PvP than in PvE, and this only serves to discourage more people from joining PvP. Why don’t we take the brawl – approach and make everything equal, but equally strong, not weak?

Also in regard to AoEs, perhaps a separate balancing can be done in PvP to PvE and WvW. It is fine in WvW and PvE right now, so that should not be touched too much.

activity of your server should directly factor into how well your server does. A server that has a larger supply of people should naturally have the benefits of having a larger supply of people and do better as a result on the map. The outmanned buff we have now already makes things a lot better for servers that are losing out – it strips the penalty from trying, and creates an incentive by raising rewards without changing competitiveness of each group in encounters.
tl;dr you should not get rewarded for having less people, and you should not get punished for having more. what we have now already promotes wvw partipation enough.
And yes i was talking about OP’s “God Buff”….

Worst idea ever. Sounds dumb too

^I main thief and I would like to say hi
It is much much much easier to completely disengage as a thief than it is as an ele right now
mesmers have blink and stealth as well.
The only thing i can agree from this discussion is that RTL is rather ridiculous on spirit watch but that is about it. While it gets no effect on cripple/freeze, it also gets no effect from swiftness.

Eles are fine except on spirit watch. If you’re going to tone down eles, tone down the other classes that are right there with them – namely, rangers, mesmers, guardians, and especially engineers. Would love to see warriors get the help they need, though. Ressing teammates is also ridiculously fast right now. Warrior’s greatest problem right now is still condition removal.

Uh i run necro and it isn’t the best roaming class probably solo, but it sure doesn’t falter. I run a support tanky condition well build, and my wells, numerous aoes, chill on blind, plague, and dark shroud, and sheer tankiness already dissuade many people from challenging me (i’m not worht the time) and even when i get in a 1v2 situation i can usually last quite a while until I get to a zerg, where i can truly shine!

Don’t forget underwater battles…

I’m in support of making PVE and PVP balancing separate! Some classes that are a bit over the top in PVP are absolutely fine in PVE in their roles (Engineers, guards, eles, mesmers and perhaps rangers), while other classes lacking in PVE right now are fine/better than fine for PVP (thieves, rangers, and engineers). It would be unfair to one type of gameplay or the other to have a blanket buff/nerf especially when some players focus on one aspect of the game more than others.

The thing is that the ele is in a precarious state right now. More nerfs to this build without SIGNIFICANT buffing of other traits, weapons, and base stats is going to leave this class useless much like engies pre patch because frankly, eles really have very few decent choices otherwise. I say this as someone who mains thief and necro for spvp, warrior and ele for pve. PVE/WVW wise this class is fine in terms of D/D. If things are going to change to hurt this build beyond use in PVP, please keep it in PVP and leave eles where they are in PVE for this build – I’m sure that most would agree with this decision. And yes, perhaps instead of hurting eles, buff up other classes that need help like warriors and perhaps thieves in tpvp prowess. The ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, and necro have pretty good niche roles in spvp right now and it’ll be nice for them to stay where they are – if anything, engineers may be a tad OP right now but you know what, instead of hurting classes that come out at the top perhaps bring everyone up to par?

If heal is going to be touched, then base hp, toughness, and power need to be touched as well. Ele is sorely lacking in those aspects otherwise.

I have moved away from the ele since the rtl nerf, and played against eles as other classes- ATM, rtl seems fine now with the longer cool down. They’re still good at running, but not op good at it like they were anymore

It is pretty clear this is getting nerfed. Engineers right now make the best point defenders/ point oriented support right now with ridiculous dmg/control/ good survivability. With the ridiculous amount of buffs last patch, They are bound to be toned down- the question being, by how much?

Shay.7534:

Good luck warriors!

They will need it.

I like the analysis. The biggest reason you see do many dd eles running the same build though, is that elementalists are pigeonholed into this one build cuz the rest frankly do not work or plain sucks in competitive pvp. I do not think that at this point elementalists are still broken after so many nerfs- rather, engineers need to be looked at ASAP and warriors need some help as well. If anything, elementalists right now need other weapons buffed so we can start seeing changes in the ele meta and it would be nice for eles as well to see that they have options.

Davinci.8027:

In this order:

1.)Warriors (sooooo much burst)
2.) Thieves (soooo much burst but less than warriors)
3.)Rangers (sooooo much haste, is not fare)
4.) Mesmers (time portal, warp, illusion of life [es so op])
5.) Guardian (es never die)
6.) Necro (conddition master)
7.)Engineer (so bad, damage so lo, i laff when i go aganst engi haha)
8.) Elementalist (no damage, i only has 14000 hp, needs more heling)

Jajajajajaja

le wat

Who has a video of it?

Thing is that Killshot is really easy to dodge for any experienced player and they will most likely interrupt you in middle of charging it with cc or what not. Ofc there’s nothing wrong with this build if nobody pays attention to you, but once that happens, you’re done. The longbow is a great weapon, but sadly the rifle is not. The warrior is not in a workable solo state, which is more emphasized in tPvP than hotjoin.
Eles and guards which are a large part of the current tPvP meta will give you a whole lot of trouble.

Puff Pure.8631:

This is all pretty good, but anyone have any images where the underdogs flatten the high-rankers?

that rarely happens as tpvp has to do a lot with experience and at higher ranks it requires a LOT of points to rank up. If this ever happens, it’s the rank 20+ organized underdogs that we’re talking about against less organized 30s and 40s – there may be a chance there.