Artifically increasing the participation numbers isn’t not a good thing and you can argue against it all you want, still won’t ever be true.
Content doesn’t need to cater to every single players needs (most of it should, i give you that).
Blizzard would not agree with you and Blizzard have infinitely more experience than you. Why I should trust your opinion instead?
Raids cater to organizes groups/guilds who are willing to put effort and time in it to learn and improve themselves further, this is content GW2 was desperately lacking in terms of PvE.
Any group content that require more than 111111 is doing exactly that. This is not an argument.
Also how long will it take that those made up 60% are only 40%, or 35%, or even 25%?? easy content is trivial and doesnt have much replay vallue -> development needlessly gona to waste.
Copypasting and rewriting few encounter scripts and loot tables? Definitely a lot less than making another raid from scratch. New raids requires everything, scenario, map, textures, models, sounds, voice actors, new scripts, new spells, new items, new NPCs and creatures, even new masteries. Making new difficulty requires few rewritten scripts and few new lines in loot tables.
Next point is that it would not only require alot more ressources, which in return means EVEN LATER LW updates (content that is actually designed for casuals), but it would also stall development of further raid content.
A lot of which resources? Imaginary ones? Because all others are already mentioned.
Well maybe because using your brain is allowed here?!
We already made it very clear that taking resources to produce content twice for raids is already a waste (one of the main complaint you casuals have btw if you’ve forgotten),
and now you wanna have 4 difficulty tiers instead of 2?
So that would double the workload even more, how is that good in any means?
With this size Arena Net would most certainly be forced to move more people into the raid team and postpone other things like LW3 and similar stuff.
I guess thinking is very rare these days…
Making content accessible for x3 amount of people is better use of development time than even making +1 whole raid, regardless of your opinion about that.
Make 4 difficulty tiers with different rewards, with current difficulty being tier 3, and rewards system is same as fractal daily one – if you kill T4 boss you getting T1+T2+T3+T4 rewards at once. This way people can learn and progress to harder encounters and better rewards.
Dunno why I’m writing this tho, “professional raiders” (lol) will vigorously dismiss any proposal anyway.
Yes there is. It’s basic economic theory. Please direct me to your sources and I’ll gladly change my opinion on how rarity affects value. I’ve shown what I’m basing my argumentation on. Until then, I’ll stick to what I know. You not valuing something because its rare does not mean others share the same values. We even have in this thread people who openly admit they are interested in the item due to its rarity.
Now you can keep bringing up your own values and treat them as proof or fact of argument, but that won’t change common or mostly accepted behavior and established basics of how a big portion of population behave and will behave.
It have NOTHING to do with economic theory because tonic is not involved in any economic relations at all. It’s same thing as measuring artistic value of poem by counting words and symbols and trying to apply some mathematical theory to those numbers. Yes, you will get some abstract result, but it will be absolutely meaningless one.
This is intentional. We made the change to help with nameplate visual clutter in WvW.
Can you make them visible in sPvP only? They really only add visual noise. If someone have to show something outside of PvP we have title system for that.
If you put value in rare items those people who have the tonic are worse off because their item will no longer be rare. Saying noone is worse off if you make it less of a rarity is nonsense.
Items can have an intrinsic value even if they are not tradeable on the free market. There are a lot of items in real life that you are not legally allowed to sell, but that does not make them worthless.
By your “logic”, every rare item must be immediately deleted after first drop to someone, otherwise we hurting his experience of owning something rare.
You are trying to say that raiders did not pay for the expansion and have less rights than you?
And no. You are not entitled to any of that. All you are entitled to is technical support and access to gw2 servers. Turns out you are the only real entitled elitist in this thread.
There is less raiders than non-raiders, so non-raiders have all rights in the world to complain about endgame content being made only for raids.
Seriously, why this is still not implemented after almost 4 years? I have all 5 of my guild slots occupied and still have guilds with friends that I want to join. 400, 600, 800 gems, I don’t care, but please make it happen.
There is nothing in this game that shows that you are good, but it shows that you are most likely very dedicated about fractals.
MMOs are traditionally more about dedication than skill, so its not suprising that there are no truly skill based rewards in GW2. Bad at raids? Just pay others to do them for you and reap the rewards…
Even if you require a solo lvl 100 for the tonic, it is pretty easy to pull of with some builds.
I spent years doing them every day, and never seen anyone in my party getting it, let alone getting it by myself, and I’m sure that there is people who got it on their first week. Dumb RNG shows absolutely nothing. It’s stupid system.
When your calculating the % of players raiding how do you factor in the people buying regular runs because thats there only way to get legendary Armour. At 1000g or 2k ecto for a clear of both wings its expensive yes.But anet created a very lucrative business when they locked legendary behind raids.
Lolwhat. Full eternal was like 200g, full clear for 2 wings was 500, and that was shortly after wing 2 launch, when not everyone put raids on farm and price was considered too expensive.
Being pretty new to raids, only 5 LI so far, i have to say that those who really wanna play raids are gonna get into them sooner or later. I started from nothing, never joined a raid guild for teaching runs nor had people on friendlist to pick me up and carry me through it.
People who just complain about raid accesibility and stop there have a completely different mentality than what is required to succesfully clear bosses. Generally, these are the people that sit on the forums and whine about everything while the rest are playing the game.
I’m playing this game more than majority of raiders. I don’t want to play raids because I had more than enough of them in WoW and this game promised to be not wow-like.
So what exactly wrong with asking for not wow-like endgame and wow-like endgame rewards model? Like, you know, fractals, pvp, wvw, all that stuff that was working as endgame pretty great for everyone, before anet decided to drop everything and pump out content and shinies for raids only?
You clearly have some problems with reading. It says that:
50% of the 100% players registered on gw2 efficiency is raiding,
21% of the 100% (not 21% of the 50%) players registered on gw2 efficiency is having some succeses in raiding.
No one adds any percentages. In fact I understand whant you wanted to say: 50% has no shards, 29% has less than 500 shards and 21% has 500 or more shards (in that 21%: 10% has less than a 1000 shards and 11% a 1000 or more and so on).
I guess it’s clearly not me having problems with reading.
Legendary is better than ascended by having more value and unique stat switching mechanic. More useful qualities = better, straight and simple.
Raids aren’t sustainably rewarding ascended gear.
Straight lying. Shards are currently only way in game to get desirable ascended stuff without heavy RNG or dropping a lot of money to craft. And even more, raids have unique ascended stuff that is unobtainable anywhere else.
Envoy legendary armor is unique to raids.
Legendary armor is a raid reward.
And?
Unique skin rewards can’t be usefully assigned value.
I guess you are living in some other world then.
Having unique raid rewards are good.
Sure. But having them at expense of all others is bad.
over 50% of the players registered on gw2 efficiency tried raiding,
I used Arnath’s own data to show him that he’s misinterpreting it. It doesn’t say that only 1% of all players is raiding. It says that over 50% of players registered on gw2efficiency tried raiding and over 21% has some succeses in raiding. I proved him wrong with his own data. That’s all.
Data explicitly shows that 50% of gw2e users don’t have any shards, so your data means that you have more than 100% of them?
Numbers are not additive, people with more than 249 shards are already included in population with 89+ shards and so on.
If raids are a failure then why your data shows that >30% of players does them from time to time and that around 20% are regular raiders?
You mean, 20% of GW2E users killed 1 boss once for their lifetime/tried to do magnetite farm and then dropped it forever?
And again, this is gw2e users, people who able to at least find what API key is and use it. So we have statistics on minority of not absolutely clueless players, and even these players are mostly ignoring raiding.
Your criticism doesn’t really apply to gw2 because a) other content is fairly rewarding and b) raids aren’t that rewarding. On a per week basis raid rewards are nothing to right home about.
I should really hammer this point home. Unless your idea of other content is RP then the content is appropriately rewarding and is probably more sustainably rewarding than raiding.
Again raids are not sustainably rewarding.
That is why you criticism is incoherent, because the flaw you are criticizing doesn’t actually exist.
So raids are not rewarding, raiders playing it for challenge, legendary armor is just same thing like some ascended set, etc etc, but what happens when someone trying to make a suggestion about some alternative way to get them? Yeah, right.
My main issue it’s the ability to BuyAscended Weapons/Armor with Raid Tokens, (AKA: Magnetite Shard), thus bypassing all RNG and Crafting Grind.
That is what makes Raids the ‘End Game’ content, because you can’t buy Ascended Weapons/Armor with any other currency.
Now if they put in a vendor where players could buy Ascended Armor/Weapons from Fractals (Which would make sense) and change it so that The Glorious and Triumphant Armor from the WvW/sPvP Reward Tracks was Ascended as opposed to Exotic, that would equalize the game quite a bit.
But right now, Raids give players the ability to simply buy Ascended Armor/Weapon, for less gold then it costs to make an Insignia.
Wrong, you did nothing but telling us that Raids are bad without Proof. Show us the Proof. You tell us that Raids are bad for the Game, then you have to prove it.
Raids by themselves are not bad indeed. But raids being only endgame pve content, especially without good variety of difficulties, is certainly very bad, and I hope Anet not going to move game it that direction.
Just a reminder that you got 4 big open world maps in the last ~7-8 months. That’s like 1 new big open world map every 2 months. And more open world maps are probably on the way with LS3 too.
What’s a WoW?! this game is called Guild Wars 2, maybe you should stop playing this game and go back there, because apparently this game isn’t for you.
Your competent and valuable opinion is very important to me, thank you.
But Raids are endgame instanced PvE.
You already can play 2 wings of the raid, you just decide you don’t because (insert random irrational reason).
Totally your fault, tough luck buddy.
They are not only one tho. Also, not everyone wants to return to WoW again.
When Spirit Vale came out, Woodenpotato made the point that one the key elements to the story was the difficulties of the bosses. It made the bosses feel like real threats to tyria that the player characters actually had to band and strategize together to defeat. When Salvation Pass was released, anet released a video talking about making the white mantle the main villains of the raid. They had wanted to tell this story, but they could not find a setting “epic enough” to tell it. Raids provided that setting.
Adding an easy mode or Solo mode tears down this epic setting for Players.
I don’t think that White Mantle can be even a fracture of former Zhaitan’s threat.
Again, where are your sources on this? Because without them, this is all unsupported theory/headcanon on your part.
Because we don’t have even a single example of peaceful tyrian race that was able to spread out across whole Tyria like Forgotten did? This is pretty logical conclusion.
And where is that information coming from? Because other than a few times were they had to actively defend themselves (against the EDs, Charr, and Turai Ossa) or if you desecrated major temple (Margonites), the Forgotten have been an overly peaceful race. There was no “conquering” or “establishing control over Tyria” with them.
In the world with multiple sentient races you cannot spread all over Tyria by being peaceful. Though, I guess they probably repeated (or, to be more correct, did it first time) human invasion scenario, where gods initially gave them power, helped with initial push, and then left Tyria.
Considering the fact that we know the Forgotten are an Elder Race that has been living in Tyria for at least 5,000+ years, it could be easily possible that, even while not native, they have been living on Tyria (and in and around Ascalon) long before the Charr race/culture evolved enough to form any type of society. That’s more than enough time to claim “native” status.
And yet, they are invaders, brought by human gods to establish control over Tyria, but failed. And after that fail, gods decided to intervene again and brought second “god chosen race” to try again.
I wonder how many real tyrian natives was slaughtered during first gods arrival.
Still failing to see how any of this makes them useless outside of scale 100….
Care to elaborate ?
Barely any group synergy. Lack of valuable buffs, not that great dps, conditions need time to ramp up. Reaper is easy to play, but outside of trin and 4 reaper+something buffing setup it’s not that great if you compare with classic rev+war+mesmer+2 tempest setup.
Perhaps that’s the reason why I am seeing an increased amount of reapers in T4 fractals? Being not useful gets more usage. Sounds strange…
Because reaper is probably easiest class to play in T4. You can facetank literally everything, minions can make you immune to conditions, you can trait for additional healing as 10% from condi damage, and dps rotation is quite simple.
The charr didn’t destroy their own gods. Humans did it – twice. But the charr like to omit that part of history.
Just like they like to omit the part where they conquered Ascalon and only lived in it for less than a generation before it got conquered by humans from them.
Despite the fact that individuals lived in Ascalon before them, and those that lived there after lived there longer (by about ten times the duration if not more), they still claim Ascalon as “rightfully theirs”.
I’m a fan of the charr, but truth be told… they’re liars and hypocrites when it comes to telling their history.
Or maybe they just lived for less than one generation in Ascalon after they reconquered it from previous “god chosen race” of divine invaders? Charr are natives for Tyria, Forgotten are not.
Legendary armour has the same stats as ascended. Ascended is still BIS, it just shares the place. If you are going to argue that stat swapping makes it incredibly better I am going to struggle to take you seriously because then you would be vastly overestimating the worth of stat swapping.
I love how challenge and no rewards are somehow the same thing to you. Can I guess at other things that are equal to you? Maybe water and bricks, or even you and lord of the universe who is more important than anyone else.
Who saying about no rewards? Stripping of legendary armor and unique stats means that raid rewards will be same as in other game modes, but on top of that there will be a challenge that you praise so much. Oh wait, you not playing raids for challenging content?
the raid team was not formed 3 years ago it was formed well after that, if it has been a problem for 3 years, then you should be looking elsewhere for your cause.
I’m looking at game content, and see that raids are getting tons of Anet attention, and all other instanced content is getting “haha here is few retextured skins, a glorious wings that my son made in 3ds max yesterday, and now bug off”.
Besides, you are looking at what you see and drawing a conclusion that fits your preconceptions. Someone else could look at the raid team and the same data and say “Wow, only 5 permanent members? look at the content they are pushing out. They are so efficient”. and both would be just as logically valid as the other because ANet has not published any vague sense of the number of man hours put into a given piece of content.
New content is great. Distribution of said content is not.
“disproportionate” and “bottlenecked” you showed neither.
3 years of zero instanced content outside of story and raids is not enough to prove, emmm, slightly “disproportional” allocation of resources and people for you?
tl;dr ANet’s raid team is more efficient than the people on my content, so ANet must be lying
When they gave the 5 people number they said in addition to the audio, modelers etc. that help them not full time, just like how those developers help all the other groups.
So basically they are taking shared resources from other teams, because raids was Anet priority.
Please don’t destroy raids, it’s the most polished content in the game right now.
We don’t want to destroy raids, we don’t even want to stop them from making them because there is quite a few people who enjoying them, but practice of making raids instead of all other PvE content, instanced or not, is bad, and they must change that.
P.S. inb4 “only 5 people” argument, who magically managed to make scripts, sounds, textures, voice lines, models, shaders, loot tables, alpha testing, and so on.
I don’t want any of that, every single thing that you’ve listed, i don’t want any of it
I want more raids, should dev team go for things that i want as well?
Then you obviously picked a wrong game. You need one called World of Warcraft.
I agree right with what you’re saying. 2 years ago I had to get a time machine to get my BIS ascended gear because it obviously didn’t exist before raids according to you.
Ascended gear can be crafted and acquired by a lots of ways. Name other way to get legendary armor except raids.
Preach it. We fought hard to make this an unfufiling game devoid of challenge and we will continue to fight untill every last ounce of challenge and interesting content has been wiped from this game.
And those that like the raids, they don’t deserve to get what they want because because it’s not what I want and I deserve to be catered to for self evident reasons.
Oh, so you are playing it for challenge? Then I guess you will agree that raids must be stripped from legendary armor and unique stat items, because you want only challenge, right?
Back in 2011-2012 this game was advertised as something player-friendly and not WoW-like, and lot of people bought it because of that – ex-veterans of other MMOs who tired from eternal gear mill and grind. And now what we see? Last new fractal/permanent dungeon path was added in 2013, THREE YEARS AGO. But hey, here is new and exciting raids, with trinity, unique loot, BIS armor locked behind it, just like in WoW.
And I’m asking – what the heck is going on? I left WoW after release of Cata, I had more than enough 25 HM clears, and now this kitten is being only new content in game that was made for people who retired from raids? What?
You love raids? Fine, but don’t push them to those who already fed up with them long ago, and don’t ask why these people are angry when they getting not that this game promised to be.
I don’t have exact figures, but internally to ANet the raid team is lauded and praised for being a massive success. I am under the impression that there will absolutely be more raids, potentially even very soon as a component of LS3 (they said this was a possibility, so no guarantees).
So last new fractal/dungeon content was 3 years ago, but they are trying to push raids instead. “Great” news.
Hmm right, not that fractals are hell boring and people just playing them for the rewards. At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.
Because, you know, last new content in fractals was almost 3 years ago, but even now fractals population remaining huge, healthy and constantly getting new players? If this is not sign of really successful and well-made endgame content, then I have no idea what content is good at all.
And I’m pretty sure that if anet will decide to move their raid team to fractals, it will be MUCH more successful than any raid in current implementation.
First, they tried to be successful in esports but that’s no fast-selling item. you cannot enforce it.
Second it was obvious to most of the players that GW2 is far away from being an A-level esport game.
Third you should stop arguing with conspirancy theories. It won’t help anybody.
It was just an example of another “great success” without any real numbers behind it.
Again: Anet is comfortable with raids like they are and they have the numbers.
And why should I give an example of an increasing raid playerbase, especially after 8 months when content gets older and older and it’s obvious that some people will leave raids like they are doing in any other game? I still don’t get that and no, I am not the responsible one to show you an example.
Because it’s a major (if not main) characteristic of successful endgame content? Like, you know, FotM, where you have constant flow of casuals coming to low scales and then improving up to T4. That’s how you keeping your population big, healthy and satisfied.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say, sorry.
A not raid-oriented guild won’t play raids or maybe they try them and sure, in many cases they haven’t succeeded but Anet is very pleased about the numbers of players that raid consistently. Even more, the company confirmed that there are way more people playing raids than they have thought.
So, I still can’t see any fail implementation.
So you can’t give even a single example of increasing raid playerbase in any guild except for tiny amount of specific raid ones and you still call it a successful implementation. Right.
Well, that’s your only critical point?
I see enough groups in the LFG every day so maybe it’s a problem in your guild but there is no lack of playerbase at all.
Can you give an example of not raid-oriented guild where raiding playerbase not decreased since raid release?
Yeah, because we have a handful players complaining about things without using their brains a.k.a. aren’t understanding to use the lfg the right way, aren’t willing to practice and aren’t realizing that raids are a different content than over 95% of the rest of the game.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The implementation of raids is fine without any percent of a doubt and I don’t see your so called “proves” for a second!
Please show us a real prove for a fail. A real one that cannot be eliminated by effort and work (= practice/training).
My guild had like 4 raid teams (was first Eternal EU and I guess second worldwide), now it have like 2 with second one is struggling for players. If shrinking raid playerbase is a sign of success for you, then sure, go ahead.
If you want to see example of endgame content done right, you should look at FotM or raids in WoW, but not at GW2 raids.
