I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night, again: I don’t care any longer. ^^
Nice, now we have a self-proclaimed “elite” who asks to deny other players from “their” content. I guess this post should be used as a perfect reference in any future discussions.
Having raids does not make this game WoW-like. Dear god if that were all it would take every single MMO since Everquest and even before would be identical.
WoW-like means having your stuff devalued on a constant basis and fed new pixel items making your old stuff obsolete. Same as most other MMOs on the market. That is where GW2 differs, and this has essentially not changed since introduction of ascended shortly after launch. On the contrary, most steps so far have been to make it easier for people to get ascended gear.
Stop mixing in arguments which are not on topic.
- Raiding is generally perceived as a huge success by the raiding community -> subjective fact.
- Raiding is not as hard as people make it out to be difficulty wise, especially wing 3 – going by what pre-guilds have pulled off and the actual requirements to clear bosses -> fact.
- It’s difficult to organise raids – subjective and debatable but let’s go with it’s definately not as easy as most other content in this game -> subjective fact.
- all other pve content in this game at this point in time is face roll easy (yes, even high rank fractals if people are not asleep) -> subjective fact.
- it is possible to aquire Best-in-Slot gear playing multiple game modes, doing different things -> fact (yes, even viper gear since trinkets are not needed to cap condition duration. Most proper builds use sinister for pve anyway).
Ofc just having raids not making this game wow-like. Making them as only endgame content is. Raids getting all the shines – new armor, new unique drops, whole new class of legendaries, easy access to best armor and weapon drops and even their own currency to buy them. But that’s not an issue, “work hard – get best” is pretty fine. Anet succeeded to create a new endgame, but failed to introduce players to it. They had one of most smooth learning systems for endgame ever, when they made fractals, but suddenly ignored their own experience and experience of every other successful pve game on mmo scene.
The core game still exist and plenty of area’s in HoT are casual friendly. The only “hard content” added was raids which was promised as a feature of the expansion….
If you have a problem with this you really shouldn’t, as there’s nothing stopping you from enjoying the rest of the game aside from you.
You can try and spin the blame on ANet or Raids but at the end of the day it’s a you issue as a consumer.
Hard content is not a problem. Problem started when it was made as only endgame content, along with 10 years old model to introduce it.
Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.
It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.
Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.
Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.
The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.
Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.
Next thing you hear is that there is a lot of unsatisfied customers, who bought this game when it was advertised as something new and not wow-like, and now you here, and telling everyone that its fine and working as intended. You like it? Great. But who are you to tell everyone else that your opinion is only right one?
No one even asking for same loot, or raid legendaries, or nerfing current raids, people just want some godkitten decent way to learn and get into raids. No, your teaching guilds is not that one, and will never be, because its developers work to create a proper way into content, not waiting for some unknown people who may, or may not do it due to various reasons.
And yet all that I hear here is “no, you must do what I did, because I said so”.
While it can be easy, stacking generally more than 2 necros is not the fastest option. You want classes like warrior to provide offensive buffs, along with chrono for quickness/alacrity. Also classes like engineer for stealth/blinds. That being said, having a necromancer in a group in high level fractals is a staple, as it has very good consistent damage, epidemic and boon stripping. But you should usually avoid taking more than two unless you want to start losing out on DPS
It may not be fastest, but its one of most foolproof comps ever, where everyone stays alive and doing pretty decent dps. Which is important if you are pugging.
Anet can’t even put people to work on proper PvE class balance, can’t produce fractals or dungeons on a timely manner (in all the time we’ve had HoT, a new fractal is just coming now), nor can they produce much in the way of braindead open world PvE.
And you expect they’ll dedicate the manpower to make an easier mode of raids?
They won’t even bother to have art assets from raids drop from them, instead outsourcing them to the gem store.
The only thing that has manpower is their gem store and trading post dev teams lol.
Making reused version of already existing content is actually fastest possible way ever to deliver content. You don’t have to create ANY new assets, only copypaste and rewrite some code.
Making an easier raid will just make people play that instead. People pick the easy route over the hard route all the time in MMOs. It’s what you do in games really: you try to get past an obstacle to a goal the best (read: easiest) way you find, not the hardest way. It’s simple gaming psychology, that needs to be kept in mind when designing different difficulty modes.
“Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).”
They are pve.
They are not PvE, but tiny part of it, and not a flawless one.
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.
Just to recall the counter arguments, here are several ways tiered rewards hurt normal raids:
1. It splits the player base. Players would naturally go the best time/reward tier. You see this in fractals — if you have the ar, you go to t4.
2. It slows down development on future raids. Developers would need to now account for scalable bosses and mechanics in designing raids.
3. It limits raid mechanic creativity. Some mechanics are not easily scaled down. And making everything scalable limits design choices for future raids.
And, per my usual reply, there’s plenty of content if you’re looking for an easier experience. And there’s always been hard content.
So:
1. Players will naturally go to upper tiers and make raiding base bigger and bigger. Is that bad?
2. It will give Anet more initiative to develop more raids, due to increased raiding player base.
3. It’s natural for harder encounters to have more mechanics. It never was a problem before, in any game.
4. There is a “plenty” of content, yes. 1 fractal and one piece of LS every 10 months. Oh, sorry, 1 new fractal for almost 3 years atm.
This is due to your misuse and false equivocation of the term “accessible”. You view it as plug and play. That is not what raids are about and thus you view is grossly going to be distorted when it comes to what is and is not accessible.
Your constant sentences about true and only definitions of various subjects are quite amusing. Are you Anet employee, or maybe you have a vote in their management council? Because otherwise all your sentences are opinions and can be regarded only as such. And they are not more important than opinions of other people here.
Your complaint doesn’t seem to be with raids, boy with the content drought.
They are releasing a new fractal and a living story in 2 weeks.
And that will be probably all that they gonna give for this year. Do you think that such generous chunk of content once per year is all that players deserve?
Sure they could, but why should they is the question?
To give players wider access to huge chunk of repeatable content? For the game famous for previous big periods of content drought, that a pretty vital goal.
Ofc you can say that they can give a lots of another content instead of that. But you know that they are not going to do it.
I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?
Ofc they could, and do. But wide playerbase can ease situation a lot, creating a natural skill ladder where anyone can find his place and sooner or later become experienced player without beating his head against a wall. That’s how it works, and that’s why old raid model died out almost everywhere by now… except GW2. Which is very weird, considering history of this game.
The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.
No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?
The frequency of it showing up isn’t actually cause to think the case is valid. Especially when you’re talking about the same 4 users posting the topic on a near weekly basis depending on the last closed thread date.
Try to visit Reddit some day, you know, place where anet devs are really answers to players unlike this forum, and then tell me more about 4 people.
Additionally if the problem was, as wide spread as to be believed you’d see a much much much larger outcry (HoT Price thread comes to mind). Right now this is much ado about nothing from a very vocal minority who have yet to, for whatever reason they chose attempt to raid, attempt to lead a raid, attempt to join the current raiding scene/community. That’s on them to fix, not any new mode, not any lower difficulty. If you don’t want to work toward a goal, then you probably don’t deserve any sort of special treatment nor any rewards garnered by players who do.
Interesting words, especially from REAL vocal minority, who trying to deny others from experiencing raids, because they are dare to not overcome badly designed entrance barrier by all costs, but instead asking devs to pay attention to their flaws.
Here, fun example for you, fresh from LFR.
Solo q and hotjoin 8v8 removal wasn’t due to competitive meme esportz stuff. I disagree with ANet’s removal to those but lets not pretend that it was because of esportz that they were removed.
Some people argued that the 8v8 hotjoin arenas were removed so more people would pay for the custom arenas and host 8v8 or 10v10s aka daily rooms we have now.
Riiight, so it was a change nobody asked for, and absolutely not because teamQ queue times was peaking over 20m+, while hotjoin and soloQ was absolutely healthy and amazingly popular. But hey, “people want to play with friends”!
If keyboard turning baddies had their way with PvP then we’d all be just trading kills on skyhammer jumping from the cannon instead of any semblance of real PvP. The leagues are already a joke now since they pulled in a bunch of bottom feeders with the allure of the legendary backpiece. I’m glad that raids are hard enough that the absolute baddest of bads don’t get a free ride with little exceptions.
Again, if majority of players enjoying doing something, who are you to say them what they must or must not to do? People who not enjoying competitive pvp are voting with their legs, and they have all rights in the world to do so.
Sure more people would be nice but compromising an entire game mode just so the very worst players get a shot feels backwards to me. I hate this whole everybody is a winner mentality. This is what they did to sPvP, opened it to all the bads and casuals and farmers and league just ends up being a big joke and doesn’t really change anything in terms of challenger/pro league.
Lol. Last time when I checked, pvp was killed by catering tryhards and enforcing that esports meme above everything. That failed miserably, and competitive scene died out so hard that Anet actually destroyed soloQ and hotjoins, doing everything to force at least someone to play their competitive arenas.
And you are saying that same thing will be good for PvE too. Wow.
Oh good so less than 80% of the accounts have an gw2e account and 80% of those have 1 airship part. What a marginally insignificant number.
Thanks stats class!
Do you have another statistical pool to show me? Maybe you can prove that 100k+ gw2e pool is somehow different from the rest of players? No, of course you don’t. For some reason you just straight refusing to believe to clear facts even when they are presented right near your face.
And how many ppl have an efficiency account? Another question would be: what ppl have an efficiency account? Do those who play like 1 or 2 hours a week have one? I don’t think so, but who knows?
Fun fact. Not everything is for everyone. Not everyone purchased the expansion therefore your attempt to make stats meaningful is really misguided and misplaced.
89,5% of gw2e accounts have at least 1 Airship part. You are trying to deny facts that cannot be denied.
Depends on how many of those alleged 40k players are serious about raiding.
Fun fact – 90+% of players according to gw2e have at least 1 fractal relic. That means that 9/10 of gw2 players tried and successfully did previous endgame PvE content at least once, even on easiest difficulty. For raids that number still remaining on 44%. So 9/10 of players had at least some interest to endgame PvE before, and you think that now this interest somehow magically disappeared?
I’m done with the seemingly “impossible to get into raids” argument. Goes back to my point, if you want more teaching guilds get off the forums and build one for the EU community.
So, how many guilds should be built to teach 40k+ people who want to raid, according to gw2e player numbers and reddit survey percentage?
Again, you are proposing to solve famine problem with a charity soup kitchen. Real problem is bigger and need another solution, from above.
You act like the raids are some sorta supernatural and impossible task…
Seeing as i’ve lead teaching groups personally, i can assure you that as long as you’re not a stubborn person and are willing to actually “learn”, you too can do the raid. Unfortunately, given your post history you seem to think everyone who raids frequently is either toxic or elitist which doesn’t lend itself well to teaching.
As for why this is a bad idea, i’ve already said why. This isn’t a compromise. It’s a give me unique loot for walking through easy mode. Given past incarnations of easy mode elements in this game, you wont ever see this. They may let you experience the lore and environment one day, but you can be sure a sin they wont be giving you unique raid rewards for doing a story mode.
This learning topic was beaten to death already, and reddit had a lot of good compilations about it.
There is not enough learning groups (especially on EU), there is not enough encounters covered by learning groups, and there is still a BIG pug problem in form of LI+killproof demands. So you have problems to learn basic encounters, then you have problems to learn rest of encounters, and then you have problem to find a group even after you learn them. And raiding guild often have same demands as pug groups – LI+exp.
People really need some form of raids to learn on, or this will never end well. Ancient raid model died out everywhere, but for some reason anet decided to resurrect it in one of most unsuitable games for it.
It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.
Source, any “Functional Society”.
There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”
So people was able to adapt to anything else in this game and now suddenly they all complaining and refusing to adapt? People not asking for raid nerfs, or raid rewards for free, they asking about something they can learn and become better.
But you for some unknown reason preferring to say “no, you should learn to drive car by jumping in and ride right into highway traffic, because I did it before you”. There is exactly zero reason behind this, only stubbornness and “no, because I say no”.
Because talking to other players is super difficult……
It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.
According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.
Then why waste resources making an easy mode if they are already on farm status?
To help more people join raiding? Raids are meant to be challenging endgame, but not some exclusive content only for hardcore guys. That model died long ago, and only anet for some reason forgot about learning curve and increasing difficulty.
And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.
Really, toxic is such an overused term.
500 people in guild usually means 50-100 active players. According to gw2e stat spreading, only 44% of them tried raids once. So that means that they have 22-44 players that tried raiding (probably people with various pve skill, not some hardcore guys), and with such small group, its pretty probably that they was unable to form a quality static or find a good RL. And that’s how it ends.
wut xD but the whole point of the raids, that makes them time-consuming, is hitting a difficulty wall that you need to plan and think ahead to overcome, if you adjust the difficulty to your personal preferences it misses the point of a raid.
What makes them repeatable is the rewards and the exhilarating effect of overcoming something extremely difficult, neither of which are or should be present in lower difficulty modes.
I saw more people looking up and insulting friendly raiders than other way round
I have read way worse things in the ingame chat of farming maps like your mentioned stuff. Please don’t exaggerate that much.
Existence of other flaws doesn’t mean that flaws mentioned by him automatically disappears. Just like existence of someone who murdered people doesn’t meant that everyone must forgive and forget about person who did a robbery.
You can keep on blabbering about how raids destroy this game all you want, it still doesn’t change the fact that you are wrong.
Nothing will happen, you will leave and others will come, not a lot of people will be sad about it. I certainly wont.
No, multiple tiered difficulty will just make the raiders sad that their content, that they have fought for (for years), to get trivialized and devalued.
Not everything needs to adjust to the players, sometimes players have to adjust to the difficulty of content.
And this is one (the only) of these cases.
Enough people wanna see more of this way of development.
You just finally need content that fits you skilllevel, and i agree that you should get it, but raids should remain at their current difficulty, as we see 95% of GW2 content being faceroll, trivial or already had tiered difficulty.
GW2 needs Raids just as they are for players who want challenging content.
Stop destroying it for us!
People asking tiered difficulty mostly for accessibility purpose, not for farming. Even if they have halved drop on everything, majority will learn encounters and move on to full feature raids, because people want full reward, just like in fractals nobody cares about T1-2-3 when they finally able to clear T4 for T4 rewards. And only you trying to make drama out of it.
Hey man, cba finding the quote but you mention that the guild I referred you to asked you to have full ascended and at least having killed VG. That’s a blatant lie, as I was invited to the guild even though I clearly stated that I did not have full ascended gear and that I hadn’t killed Vale Guardian. The guild leader you spoke to even showed you three applications of people saying the exact same thing as I said in my application, yet you continue to act as if the guild is the devil simply because they didn’t want someone with your attitude.
The problem here is how you behave and simply refuse to listen to what other people who have more experience than you tell you is best. You want to make the entire raid fail over and over so you can realise on your own that “oh wait… yeah maybe this raid leader who has killed this boss 20 times knows what’s right to use here…”. Now obviously I know you would never actually admit you were wrong but that was just an example.
Also as a side not to any potential Arenanet employees following this (quite funny) thread, could you kindly just ignore it? <3 This guy’s opinions are far from what most people feel and to be fair his attitude is ridiculous and he was seemingly expecting to be declined from the get-go, because of us “meta-drones” who use the optimal builds not wanting to invite a guy that will wipe us over and over.
Anet not reading this forum anyway. They are live on reddit.
I do hope you are kidding in your second paragraph.
Suffice to say, there are examples of charr romance. The thing is, said romances must be in context with charr culture. You simply won’t find a charr romance that resembles your typical human love story.
Ember saying that you are wrong.
Dougal looked at Ember’s shadowed form in the darkness. The charr seemed honestly curious. “Human relationships are hard to explain to other races.”
Ember snorted, "Oh, I understand. Charr relationships have all that stage drama as well. We on occasion mate for life, though our relationships are usually more casual, and we have more than our share of jealousies, rivalries, expectations, and disappointments. Lovers come together, break apart, and come together years later.
Also, there is a lot of non-legion charr that live in LA and various order strongholds.
Oh true , but you are avoiding the fact that in WotLK they added a harder mode in raiding , not an easier one.
There was 10 and 25man normal and hardcore modes.
People here are suddently begging for easier modes just so they can do the legendary armor :^)
Before WotLK 25 man was a normal raiding mode (if we dont count vanilla 40 man raids). WotLK introduced a much easier 10 man, harder 10 man HM, normal 25 and hardest of them, 25HM.
Raid serve the exact function they are intended for. Challenging group content. They serve a segment of the population that was not being served previously.
There is no reason to create an ’easy" version of raids any more than there is a reason to create a “player versus AI” variant of PvP.
Raiding is a specific type of content, build for a specific audience. If you are not in that audience, then just don’t do it or attempt to learn that content type.
It is a fraction of the content in the game, and, like the PvP update and WvW updates is a long time coming. Anet neglected gameplay that wasn’t open world and story instances for three years. They’re rectifying that problem by giving equitable treatment to the whole community. That means some patches they will serve parts of the community you aren’t in. They’ve now served that part of the community for the duration of HoT. We are moving in to LS3.
It is not ‘wasted content" just because some players don’t want to do it. Unless you spend equal amunts of time in PvP, WvW, fractals, open world, dungeons, and replaying story instances, some part of the game is always going to be ’wasted content" relative to the individual player.
This is not a single player game. It is not designed around individual players. It is designed to serve a massive and diverse community of players.
Except that in current iteration as “only PvE endgame” is serves only as game killer.
Don’t get me wrong I just want body locking removed completely in all game modes, so if they will remove from one fight because it makes the fight easier they should just remove it all together.
How about no? This is pretty good mechanic, and removing it just because one boss fight out of hundreds in game is beyond stupid. They will fix this encounter and thats it.
It’s interesting to see revenants in literally every team and even in almost same build, but forum pvp experts for some reason demanding to nerf warrior instead.
Incorrect, your data doesn’t validate your point because I was able to discern my alternatively valid conclusion from it.
All that data clearly shows is subs dropped after WotLK and during the Launch of Cataclysm. That’s it. You and I with our speculations of the cause aren’t grounded.
The difference is, my position is something I can back-up, as I can go find sources for games that have expansions that when they release, see a jump in their interest and play-rate. This data suggests however that at an expansion launch, for an MMO mind you with content that takes a lot more time to devour than a simple DLC to Skyrim, straight up dropped in interest. That is contrary to what should have been more likely to happen.
Which is why I point to my conclusion that WotLK caused such an overwhelming drop in subs once it finished, because players lost trust in Blizzard for its decisions during WotLK’s lifespan. Why take a risk and buy another WotLK? Many chose to leave instead, which doesn’t foil the logic of Expansion Launches creating a spike in play-time and interest.
In fact, I suppose it goes to prove just how awful WotLK was. So unless you can show me proof somewhere of how an expansion launch can actually cause less interest, I think we are done here.
I don’t care about suggestions and speculations, especially based on such tiny and niche examples as other so-called “raid” MMOs. I gave you numbers. Now either you will give me other numbers, like shrinking numbers of raiders in later WotLK raids, or big user polls, or stop trying to prove your pointless position by empty speculations based on insignificant examples.
Numbers, or we are finishing this discussion with admitting that WotLK raid model was an ultimate success. That’s all.
Let me expand then. Find me an expansion release from any games where from the outset the game had less players than before due to the release.
Maybe Diablo 3 Reaper of Souls- no wait that brought a lot of players in. I might have to go look around quite a bit for this phenomena. Maybe some CoD DLC maybe somewhere…
I also like how you seem to neglect FF14 and even SWTOR. FF14 likely has the better raiding scene than WoW right now, but that’s borderline going in a different direction.
Let me know when you find something, in the meantime we can assume that if it wasn’t Cataclysm’s release that caused the massive drop, it was likely what I have been saying all this time.
It’s your job to prove your point about mythical WotLK low quality, not mine. Mine point is supported by numbers, yours – only by some wild guessing and weird examples from failed and asian (lol) MMOs. And it’s you who was caught on trying to backup your theories by lying, which invalidates your position even further.
