Guild Wars 2

Ruin.3461:

Except Dagger storm lasts far longer than any of these skills.

Over the same period of time, DS does more damage. DS lasting longer than these skills just means it does even more since they’re shorter.

The one exception being Whirwind Attack on the warrior’s greatsword skill set.

Ruin.3461:

Let’s look at Whirwind Attack, which “lasts all of .5 seconds” and does more damage than DS during those .5 seconds. That would be 16 times the dps even if the damage was the same. Going by your statement that the damage of whirlwind is far higher…

Whirlwind Attack’s DPS is much higher than many skills in this game, assuming you get hit by all 4 attacks. And unless you’re standing in a ‘perfect’ spot, that most likely isn’t going to happen.

Even so, that’s not relevant. My point was that comparing all spin attacks and assuming they were all equal is irrelevant. It seems you’ve skipped over that and read what you wanted into my post.

Do note that I’m not arguing for or against dagger storm, just pointing out that this argument is flawed.

You don’t need to mock me because you didn’t understand my point.

As for Heartseeker, having the ability to cancel a skill and cause it to not have a cost while gaining the benefit of the skill is hardly a nerf. They fixed an exploit.

They’ve got a lot of little tweaks this class needs and they missed a few bug/exploit fixes. I’m sure they’ll be doubling down on their proofreading of the thief notes from now on since other classes are not in need of the same kind of changes (they’re either more obvious changes or bug fixes that have been in the works for a while).

AI should not stick to thieves. Ranger pets are a whole other issue IMO. They need to be given a once-over.

Channeling skills are still hitting you because the skill was performed before stealth was used. Stealth is not a free dodge, its a confusion tactic. You’re not able to target the thief in stealth but any skill you use on the thief prior to stealth should be given its full chance to be landed/avoided as any other individual skill is.

You guys are all paranoid now!

I agree that “stealth nerfs” are an issue for any class, but to Daendur’s point, I think they are trying to save themselves the time and effort of cleaning up many posts which will contain nothing but “I’m leaving” and the gruesome brutalization of kittens.

Edit: Oh and on-topic, lmao, I haven’t noticed a difference while getting hit with Cluster Bomb at least.

Ichishi.9613:

80% people are still blowing their ranged cooldowns onto a spinning thief.
And do mind that it is an elite with 90 seconds cooldown. And unless you are actually shooting one, its damage is far from warrior’s or guardian’s spin. And what is cooldown on those?

By “guardian’s spin” I’m assuming you mean Whirling Wrath. Yeah DS does more damage than Whirling Wrath if you’re standing next to the player on both skills. And if you’re referring to Whirling Axes on the warrior, DS does just about the same damage with the exception of being able to CC the warrior.

The only “Whirling” attack that DS doesn’t do as much damage as is Whirlwind Attack on a greatsword warrior. And only because that’s a 4-hit, straight line, uncontrollable movement skill that lasts all but .5 seconds.

I’m not going to argue for or against DS, but I hate when people bring up random unfounded arguments about balance based on falsehoods and completely irrelevant information.

TheMerc.4850:

As a warrior if you have two people smashing you it’s game over, the guardian can even counter stealthed stomps if he times it right.

This is the only thing that needs to be fixed.

Stealth needs to break upon ACTION, not damage. As soon as you start channeling, you’re revealed. End of story.

Silvermink.1456:

Redscope.6215:

Human beings have a hard time with repeatedly hitting near-exact timings. Macro/Programmable keyboards do not.

I would argue that in a game focused around the skill of the player, using macros makes you a tool…but Anet doesn’t say macro keyboards are illegal or violate the EULA.

Long story short, if you don’t use macros, you probably didn’t pull this off too often.

Anet has said that anything that changes how you interact with the game is illegal and bannable. This includes anything that lets you do more than 1 action per keystroke.

Yeah but was it specifically referring to software and 3rd party programs or even using hardware to manipulate gameplay?

I must have read something wrong if I missed it…

ZLE.8293:

As it happens i have such keyboard.But i will not be able to test it ,cuz it’s “fixed”,won’t i?
So you are basically tell me,that someone will ignore every opportunity to press BS himself when he is sertain it will land,but instead has macroed his keyboard to hit 1 exactly 3.9 sec after C&D no matter positioning,CC,opponent dodging e.t.c and by this he will reliably achieve perma-stealth? DUDE,seriously???

If I’m reading this bug right, you’d macro CnD, not backstab.

I’d rather not be banned for “attempting to explain exploits” on the forums even if they’re fixed now.

Suffice it to say, you’ve not been using your macros to exploit the game. It’s still a handicapper’s keyboard though and people will use it for timing things perfectly instead of relying on their own abilities. Probably because their own abilities aren’t good enough lol.

Human beings have a hard time with repeatedly hitting near-exact timings. Macro/Programmable keyboards do not.

I would argue that in a game focused around the skill of the player, using macros makes you a tool…but Anet doesn’t say macro keyboards are illegal or violate the EULA.

Long story short, if you don’t use macros, you probably didn’t pull this off too often.

Okamakiri.8746:

You can huff and puff all you want, but gaming companies know what brings in the money and retains customers. And at the end of the day, that’s the only thing that matters to corporations. I know it might be hard for you to comprehend, but there is a reason why majority of GW2 financial and development effort was spent on PVE and why PVP has only one scenario type and four maps.

Go read the last couple of blog posts and patch notes. They’re expanding the hell out of their sPvP/tPvP options. A big money maker for them is going esport with GW2. If they can achieve that status, they’ll be pulling down lots of cash as well as making GW2 an even bigger name in the entertainment industry.

You bet your kitten they’re going to balance around PvP when they’re this close to becoming a major player in competitive gaming.

Okamakiri.8746:

P.S. I’ve done my share of PVP over the years. Rank 14 in vanilla WoW, ex-gladiator, various FPSs (the only REAL PVP imo), etc. But I’m not arrogant or naive to think that’s all that matters, or even matters the most in MMOs.

You PvP’d a lot in the largest most unbalanced MMO in history? No wonder your point of view is skewed.

If you’re talking about class balance, PvP is the only thing that matters. Classes don’t get the minor tweaks they’ve been getting because of PvE.

Actually the most player skill involved games are of the RTS genre.

Okamakiri.8746:

If ANet DOES listen to you, they’ll end up in the same place as all the other MMOs that ignored the majority of their player base.

Once again we have the ONE guy who goes against the grain of most players and considers himself to be in the majority.

The majority of players asking for balance changes are referring to PvP. That’s from simply observing class-specific forums. Crying for buffs or nerfs is irrelevant. The point is that they’re directed at PvP.

@Himei Forceful Shot is the underwater burst skill for the speargun.

Thanks for keeping the community informed Jon. I don’t play a ranger but I am interested to see what changes. They’re currently one of the least build-differentiated classes in the game.

Now lets wait for the thief crying to bleed into this post since its about buffing a class that isn’t the thief.

Lyonell.1753:

@Redscope: We used to have more damage, pvp wise our damage is nothing.
We have more CC only if we go hammer, which means you sacrifice a lot of damage while guardian got decent mobility and CC + damage with pretty much every weapon, also pvp wise their attacks hit a lot easier in melee than warrior’s.

I would advise that you go hammer and choose hammer traits that are down the defensive line.

There’s a reason for that

@Ring…since I can’t quote…yet again

1. Just because you have other classes doesn’t mean you play them. Or are any good at playing period
2. Builds that are OP will get nerfed. Deal.
3. Wait, you didn’t know a nerf was coming to the most OP and complained-about theif build, yet you’re upset that you used said build and can’t adapt to balance changes? Sounds like bad crying to me.

Considering your post, I don’t think I need to change anything I’ve said.

Bads will be bads and use gimmick builds, then cry when they get balanced.

Moving on…

Amen.2630:

yea everything needs to be nerfed just not the proffession YOU are playing!
kitten them! kitten everyone who says Thiefes are OP! they keep nerfing every fun out of this game … quit this kitten of game !!!

OMKITTENG I can’t 2-shot people anymore? WTKitten kitten? Kitkitkitten of kitten kitten! You know what? Kitten….just kitten the kitten kitkitten.

;)

Volrath.1473:

i must admit that im surprised, i was expecting far worse.

Was also expecting some Warrior nerfs and the 50k bladetrail is still ALOWED (video here) but actually got BUFFED… i guess devs still play them as main so…

Also Bunkers are still Bosses that need a party of 5 to take down. I’m afraid of whats coming next…

Bladetrail has a bug. When it gets fixed, you’ll probably see it as a nerf. Most warrior players will not, it has been pointed out time and again as OP and unintended.

How many “don’t nerf me bro” posts do you see on the warrior forum?

I think you should consider playing one to get a feel for trying to melee DPS without stealth and shadowstep.

And don’t post the child’s “comeback” response of, “I have a level 80 warrior,kitten”

Everyone has a level 80 everything, its called “Enter the Mists”

Daendur.2357:

p/w got a -15%dmg
now we have a +15%dmg for 5 hits
ANet = Penelope ?

Difference is, you don’t have 15% damage for ‘33333’ dead. You have it for 5 hits.

Of course, as ZLE says, its probably going to be used mostly to spam Heartseeker.

At which point, they will probably have to change something else.

Expect more nerfs to the skill spamming class. There’s not much you can do besides decrease damage due to the nature of repeatedly using high damage attacks.

@ZLE

I wasn’t sure Anet was okay with people using programmable keyboards to macro their skills.

Not that they’d be able to stop you since its not a 3rd party program or a hack…still it kinda takes away from the spirit of ‘skill’

Sure there’s hypocrisy in the crying about crying, but I agree with the OP. Too many bad thieves coming here whining about stuff they knew was going to be changed.

Glad they changed sin sig and didn’t nerf backstab. They made the right choice.

Advice to bad thieves:

• Roll another class and learn how powerful the thief is
• Stop running gimmick builds, when they get nerfed you won’t be upset
• Spend more time on the game and less on the forums, you’ll get better at playing it

Volrath.1473:

humm… have any one heard of any HB nerf? as far as i know in betas it could almost one-shot ppl down and it still can.

HB has already been nerfed pre-release. Landing a full HB without Frenzy is nearly impossible to do w/o first immobilizing the target, and even then you’ve got a full 3.5 seconds to react to incoming damage.

Quickness is most likely going to change at some point.

MikeLewis.7496:

International legal matters are extraordinarily complicated to begin with; and that’s assuming you’re talking about something that both countries involved consider illegal.

In Soviet Russia, game bots you!

bwillb.2165:

And still there are other classes which burst harder, some even from range, with less buttons pressed and with a ton of more defensive while doing so than a Thief.

Yup, for instance a properly specced Engineer can put out burst at least as high as backstab thief, from 1200 range, with only two buttons. The only reason people don’t whine about it is because the build hasn’t had the Streisand effect that backstab has garnered.

Or possibly because you’re not invisible while doing it and dodging something at 1200m is not hard.

Either one or the other.

I like this post. There’s only one problem…

Thief: Get zerk gear. Get good at Steal+CnD+Backstab. Win. Against bunkers, use SB and leave.

Other classes: Learn all the thief skills. Listen for thief. Watch thief at all times. Use different/odd weapons. Use AoEs. Swing wildly at the air. Use stun-breakers. Dodge more. Build differently. Etc, etc, etc.

But you know, other than that, good post.

Yeah this needs to change.

Currently phantasm damage is WAY too high on mesmers with bunker gear. Mesmers that have damage-oriented builds are not benefiting at all from using phantasms in this way either.

Any other pet/summon type skill in the game uses player stats. Why should phantasms be any different…

Volrath.1473:

Thieves die just as fast to other thieves, warrios, rangers and good Elementalists.

With the exception that good thieves just leave the fight if they’re going to die. Bad thieves go toe-to-toe until they get stomped.

Thieves never have to die unless they’re being zerged…and then only if they’ve blown all initiative, utilities, endurance, and are within 300-600m of a target with an immobilize skill.

Volrath.1473:

for thoughs who say HB is easely dodgabe, try dooing it wile knocked down TWICE back to back for 6sec, would love to see that!

How are you being knocked down twice by one target who is using the greatsword?

Why are you staying knocked down for 6 seconds? Don’t you have a stun-breaker?

Sounds like a bad player crying to me.

Volrath.1473:

don’t bother saying that the knockdowns are dodgeable because i know they are, but so is steal and C&D, GOOD players do it all the time. BAD players whine in forums…

Steal is a 900m teleport. The only way you can dodge that is by luck. You can’t just dodge when they get within range, that implies that you know they’re going to use it as soon as they’re within range. That’s not always the case.

Good thieves do not just auto-F1 as soon as they get within range. Bad thieves do.

Guardians have more healing and condition removal.

Warriors have more health, damage, and cc.

The problem with warrior tanks in PvE is that CC on bosses is either negated or reduced and the duration of the fight is not going to be diminished by your DPS enough to make up for the lack of healing.

What gear and makeup is your warrior running with right now Shawn?

The problem with PvE in open world is that your only measurement for contribution to a monster is damage done as a % of life.

There needs to be other ways to register your commitment to an event and to achieve loot from corpses.

They should really put a system in place where anyone interacting with players within aggro range of a monster get ‘participation’ points that add up to an amount of required participation for loot. That way, if your within aggro range of a monster, using skills, each skill can be given its own set amount of ‘participation’ applied to targets.

This could also work as a threat system addition to help players have a little more control in group fights.

Sithaco.4673:

- When posting about high damage backstabs or other insane things people aren’t likely to believe. Can you please show some proof or whatever to back up your info.

When proof is shown, thieves get whiney and the post gets locked. See the many, many locked threads in this forum.

Sithaco.4673:

- When making big posts which are saying how thief is like totally not OP and stuff then how about explaining to some of the community how to counter certain builds instead of repeatedly typing L2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2PL2P.

Likely not going to happen since the players that make the ‘L2P’ posts are the ones using the gimmick builds and have no idea, nor do they care to learn, how to counter them. They’re likely to just fill their posts with “dodge more bro” since they don’t realize how much more often thieves can dodge/evade than any other class in the game.

Sithaco.4673:

There are other things which I cannot be bothered to go over right now, but it’s quite simple to keep these forums a healthy place. Thanks.

I agree there should be more decorum. But as others have said, this is an internet forum. … I didn’t mean to rhyme just then ….

Anyway, I’d just like to add that you’re posting in the forum of the most played class for skill-less PvPers in any MMO. The stealthy dps class. Don’t believe me? Check any other forum in any other game that has a class like this. Guaranteed to be the most active with ‘L2P’ and ‘OP’ posts out of all others.

It won’t be closed if we get logical and topic-related responses.

Thieves get threads closed all the time. Just cry “L2P noob” or “no nerfs plz” multiple times in a row and then a mod will step in and lock it lol.

I see one problem with this thread: Jjiinx plays a thief. The easiest warrior counter in the game.

Go cry somewhere else about how many nerfs your class is getting please.

The problem with calling HB a ‘burst’ skill is that its damage is spread over 3.5 seconds without quickness. That’s hardly ‘burst’. Its more like a short-term increase in DPS that roots you. Good luck finding anyone who plays well to stand in it for 3.5 seconds.

Frenzy is the only thing making people qq about HB, and even the bads can still dodge/counter it because it requires you to use cc PRIOR to the Frenzy/HB combo. Depending on what they do to quickness, we’ll have to see if HB is even useful in PvP.

Oh yes, I’m betting on changes to quickness. I’d like to see it removed and skills rebalanced accordingly but I doubt that will happen.

Its enough to know you lost a fight with another player in PvP. If you want unfounded penalties, go back to Lineage…

Broken systems get tossed. Games evolve to player wants/needs. Penalties for dying to other players are out.

The only reason why you have to repair in WvW is because there are mobs to fight as well as players. They haven’t put in a system to discern the two, to my knowledge.

gadenp.7586:

Rangers cannot burst dps.

That’s why they nerfed the shortbow, because he CAN burst.

gadenp.7586:

Ranger arrows have this crap bug, that if someone strives or runs fast, the arrows will miss alot. And our pets tend to miss moving target 90% of the time.

‘Missile’ type attacks to not ‘lock on’ in this game. You can move to dodge ranged attacks. If you were here before they increased the ‘forgiveness’ bubble around arrows in BWEs, you’d have noticed a major difference in how often you hit. This is a balance point of the game that isn’t going away.

The pet bug I haven’t seen. Although I don’t think its that big of a deal since you get like 12000 distance range on your pet. Nerf that first, then cry about pets missing.

gadenp.7586:

Only thing Ranger does better is traps, and any good player knows not to step into them.

Not unless you’re being chased by melee and you lay a trap right next to yourself. No time to react. This has happened to me too many times to count.

gadenp.7586:

In fact, I am one of the many that switched from ranger to warrior to get a better ranged class.

And how, exactly, are you better at ranged combat? I’d love to hear this and just completely change my perspective that ranged is mediocre at best on a warrior and you’re just a troll.

gadenp.7586:

Memsers and Thief can do great burst and thus are annoying to any class.

Which is why they visit the nerf bat more often than most classes.

gadenp.7586:

But that is why in PvP never go glass cannon and always have a break conditions skill in toolbar.

Except thieves and mesmers. Because their trickery doesn’t take a hit depending on their build.

That’s not balanced guys…

gadenp.7586:

Also I have learned that if you can learn to, by instinct, dodge whenever you see large drops of HP, you tend to survive more often against burst classes. And lastly always keep moving, never stand still.

You have to keep moving no matter what your class is. Even a ranger. Since you’ve had so many epiphanies, maybe you can return to your ranger and play him like you’re PvPing and not PvEing…PvE is the easiest with a ranger. Send in pet, press 1-5, dodge when there’s a circle, win. That doesn’t translate in the least to PvP.

Ethics.4519:

This is a joke right? I mean… it has to be.

/a ranger

Rangers are in no picnic basket either.

People, you’re comparing a balanced class to imba. Thieves and Mesmers are getting the nerfs they need, just wait.

Its hard to play a balanced class when others just ‘wtfpwn’ you in 1-2 seconds based solely on instagib.

A damage build oriented skill is not useful without building for damage?

Do tell…

Knyx, man, if you don’t think the thief is mobile you’re doing something wrong.

It is as Stin says, they don’t stack.

And in-combat movement speed with swiftness up seems to be about the same as out of combat movement without it.

My suggestion would be to use shadowstep skills to close immediately required amounts of distance. As you’ve stated you do. If you don’t need the distance right now, then your signet is enough in combat to give you an advantage against targets that do not have swiftness up.

Buzzcrave.6197:

**Please guys, stop nerd raging and read all my post clearly. I’m not defending backstab

Okay.

Buzzcrave.6197:

Backstab is fine. You may say bullkitten and so on but it is fine. It is a high risk high gain skill. … Imo, don’t nerf the backstab damage. It is stupid. It’s like nerfing PW damage when the real thing that need to be remove is quickness.

Sounds pretty defensive to me.

Backstab is part of a larger problem, but we’ll see what they do. Stealth classes always take hits after release, never seen a game NOT nerf them after people find all the instagib builds. The thief is no different. The players that just want to play the ‘steath, stabby-stabby, win’ class in RPGs should know this by now. He’s been getting one-hit nerfs since release.

Its hard to judge class balance without getting a large mass of players with differing playstyles and skill levels. They have that now and they’ll continue to make changes based on incoming data.

This may come as a shock, but forum crying is not what they go by with their balance patches (queue nerd rage about prior nerfs). You can say that there is always lots of crying before a nerf, and then a nerf happens. That’s a logical statement. What is illogical is to say lots of crying caused a nerf. If that were the case, they’d be buffing Pistol Whip right now.

Its a valuable feedback tool, but most people come to the forums to cry anyway; regardless of balance. Its the nature of internet anonymity. No matter how many ‘backstab’ posts are made, they look to their own data to see if there’s really an issue.

If you ignore WW as a GS warrior you’re doing it wrong.

Its about the most useful skill on the bar considering HB roots you and Rush tends to miss more often than not.

Most people will use cc to HB and WW directly after. That’s a killer combo but the hard part is getting HB to work without requiring Frenzy.

Lan.1968:

I’m quite curious about this question as well, since I’ve never had problems against thieves who use thief guild (despite being thief myself). They seem like minor distractions to me, and only utilized when a thief is trying to recover or run the hell away. :x

I’ve got a couple of quick questions.

If you get far enough away, do they disappear?
Can the thief get out of combat while they keep someone else in?
Will they change targets with the thief?
Is their power based off the thief’s power?

I agree that the other thief builds need to be more attractive, but its not a factor of them being non-existent or terrible. They’re just a lot harder to play. Currently with his stealth and mobility, the thief class benefits the most from glass cannon builds. More so than any other class. It’s got other options, but the high damage output option takes the best advantage of the innate stealth and mobility this class provides.

Also, its the easiest build to play in the class.

Stin.9781:

As items stolen atm are 80% useless. Its worth mostly for damage atm.

Many good players would disagree with you in PvP. PvE is another story, if that’s what you’re referring to.

Stin.9781:

Redscope.6215:

Gonna be locked soon due to thief qq and trolling.

Suffice to say, Steal seems to do tons of damage….eh?

You dont think mesmers shatters deals tons of damage too ? or warriors evisecerate/killshot?

Shattering doing tons of damage requires you to be surrounded by the clones, that’s not easy to do…however they apply the same conditions that the main hand chain applies. Which should really stop.

There’s nothing that warriors do that can’t easily be dodged. Killshot especially. Surprised you even brought that one up, actually.

D/D build in stealth is backstab…other than that its the skill set/chain which doesn’t cost initiative.

Those are the biggest reasons for it being spammed.

Gonna be locked soon due to thief qq and trolling.

Suffice to say, Steal seems to do tons of damage….eh?

Fade.5904:

im voting for no nerfs and maybe a few tweaks
EG
cloak and dagger + steal
Dodging while using certain stolen abilities

What WOULD be an interesting topic is if the whiners do manage to get thieves nerfed into pointlessness, which class/build will they cry about next?

I think a huge bunker build whine-fest is brewing . . .

Problem is, if they change ANYTHING the thief community will cry “OMG wtfnerf!” So what you’ve just voted for would be considered nerfs by all the bads posting “no nerfs plz.”

If you haven’t seen it yet, there’s a thief whining sticky in the sPvP forums. That should tell you a lot.

Archangel Ady.3720:

Sigh someone with more skill should roll an “QQ omg my class is so UP and thief is so OP” and show them how to roll that class.

Why don’t you?

Oh I forgot, you “like” your thief too much…lmao.

Fact is, everyone has a beef with thieves. Even some thieves who know how to play are saying things are OP.

Just L2P without your instagibs and you’ll be fine…that’s all they’ve been nerfing.

On the other hand, if they can’t fix the bug, the thief will just have to take a hit to stealth and deal with knowing they’re invisible to players for a good 2 seconds after they deal damage.

Niim.9260:

I am hoping that somewhere at Anet there is a clue that will fix the rendering problems with stealth, and then review if stealth is a problem or not, before just nerfing it.

One can only hope.

There’s no point in gathering data on somethings usage and effectiveness if its skewed by bugs.

They’ll probably put something in making stealth break when you take direct damage but not on conditions…

Scary enough for you? :p

Sami.1560:

6x Exquisite Ruby Jewels will give you:

+120 power
+12% crit damage
+84 precision (4% crit chance)

The Eagle set will give:

+165 precision (7.86% crit chance)
+8% crit damage
+5% damage when targets are less than 50%

Personally I went for Eagle as it takes me closer to 100% crit chance, and the +5% damage scales nicely with higher stats, where-as +150 power on its own isn’t that amazing. Then again, I use a GS for pure DPS and all of the might it generates more than makes up for losing 150 power, and those might stacks scale up with the 5% damage bonus.

That’s good too. The question is, do you spend most of your fights with targets that are <50% HP?

If the answer is yes, then you’re winning out. If its no, you should go with the orbs.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Glass Cannons aren’t “nuke missile”, they are scissors, countering paper, countered by rock.

I’m very suspicious of people who claim they know what they’re doing.

Warriors have a glass cannon build and they’re not who I’m referring to.

Re-read my post.

Pure DPS? As in, absolutely nothing else? Ruby Orbs

Tulisin.6945:

So the question is this: Is mobility more easily available to thieves than other professions, even thieves that don’t actively build towards mobility -or- is higher average thief mobility a result of the thief playerbase valuing mobility more than other professions?

I would argue that thief mobility abilities are too easily available even to thieves that don’t really put any traits/utility slots toward it. A shortbow swap combined with the fact that thieves don’t benefit as highly from using two weapons in combat as most professions means it is a negligible tradeoff for any thief to bring high mobility to the field.

Not disagreeing with you here. And I understand that the shortbow is just one point among others, but its worth it to point out that the readily available mobility isn’t just in the shortbow. All shadowsteps are teleports, they’re not effected by any type of slowing cc, and all weapon skills can be used multiple times in a row. Many thief builds also have evades on top of attacks that reposition them while attacking. Not to mention most of their innate applied conditions are ones that slow or weaken targets.

Now just take all that mobility, and add stealth on top of it.

Tulisin.6945:

Now, some might argue that this innate mobility could be balanced out by the thief’s low HP coefficient. Warriors, after all, as glassy as they spec, still benefit from a high HP pool, it isn’t a choice just like thieves always have mobility regardless of spec. However, innate mobility as a defensive attribute offers skill-based survivability while the warrior (for instance) has a stat-based innate defensive attribute.

The problem here is that once your HP pool runs out, you’re dead. You don’t ever run out of mobility…if you’re alive, its around.

You can’t argue HP as an innate defense when compared to taking no damage. That’s like saying, “We both do the same damage but you have more life and I have range.”

It sounds good on paper, but unless you let your range advantage dwindle to nothing in the amount of time it takes you to even the HP amount, you’ve got the upper hand based solely on your class.

Tulisin.6945:

In short, as the skill of the players involved goes up, the innate benefits of some professions get weaker in comparison to other professions. Your point about “survivability is partly class” therefore appears to be true, but it is easy to see why people perceive an imbalance with this when you distill it down to “X profession’s innate powers get better with more skill, Y profession’s powers do not”

So basically what you’ve just said is that either the warrior is underpowered in the hands of a skilled player, or the thief is overpowered in the hands of a skilled player. Either way, I don’t think that many thieves would agree with that.

Not that I’m trying to appeal to many thieves mind you.

All I’ve said is that mobility = defense. You can’t have a highly mobile class that has low survivability. Its like an oxymoron.

kharza.3974:

… the majority of them come down to learning to play and getting better at the core game mechanics and class mechanics (ALL CLASS MECHANICS).

Very important point here! Being a good player doesn’t only mean understanding one class and playing it well. It means understanding all classes, your currently played class, and using the best tactics of your current build to turn things to your advantage. And the only time you shouldn’t want to tailor your loadout is if you don’t mind losing sometimes to a counter-build.