Guild Wars 2

Dosvidaniya.3260:

But go ahead and pretend you “earned” it when it is just some tie-break technicality.

Just like in the other thread, I think nothing of the sort. However, just for sheer number of medals awarded during this thing, we’d still be ahead of you. Not because we’re better, not because we can beat you, but because you came in third more times than we did in during the same period.

I’d be delighted if the ties worked out like this:

1st – Gates of Madness
2nd – Sorrows Furnace
2nd – Devona’s Rest
3rd – Ferguson’s Crossing
3rd – Darkhaven
3rd – Ehmry Bay
4th – Anvil Rock
4th – Kaineng
5th – Eredon Terrace

Because then everybody in our league would get the 300 tickets to get themselves a mistforged weapon skin, if they’d finished the meta and were so inclined.

I’m not smug that we placed ahead of you. We just did. Our ambition for the tournament, such as it was, was see if we could rise up from 24th place. Our WvW has sort of stabilized after the latest mass exodus, so the survivors and newbies and the achievement hunters and the people in-between managed to win a few fights. So we’re happy.

The placing is just icing, it isn’t the cake. We don’t take any particular satisfaction is placing over AR. We’re just glad we still have people left who log in to WvW.

Dosvidaniya.3260:

What about servers who are now placed lower than they should be because of ties during the season?

For example, Anvil Rock (AR) and Ehmry Bay (EB). AR is going to end up placing 7th. EB is going to end up tying for 4th. AR beat EB 2 wins, 0 losses. Why is EB higher? Well, when the two tied on points (twice) during the season, ANet opted to place EB in the lower tier (giving them more points) while leaving AR in the higher tier (decreasing their points). As a result, AR is now ranked lower than the server they clearly beat.

Because the servers aren’t being ranked on how they fought every single other server, they’re being ranked on how they did in the totality of their three-way fights.

You’ve brought up this AR>EB so why is EB>AR in medals thing a couple of times now. As it stands right now, the two servers are tied. But if the current trend holds, we’re going to come in first in our current match, and you’re going to come in third, so we will have four more medals than you.

Or if you prefer, after this weeks match AR will have won three times, placed second once, and third five times. 3 – 1 – 5

EB will have won three times, placed second three times, and third three times. 3 – 3 – 3

Same number of wins for both servers, but we came in second more than you. We placed better in our matches overall than you did. It doesn’t mean that we are a better server than you, or that we can beat you.

Both times we were matched against each other (both times because you had dropped down to the T8 fight) you k-trained us endlessly. We haven’t forgotten.

You’re a T7 server with a rating about 80 points above us. You want props for beating the special class?

You beat Kaineng the only time you were matched with them, but you’re going to end up tied – why not include that in the examples you’re unhappy about?

If this is tied to how we were competitive servers over a year ago, let it go. You’re the bigger and badder (not in a negative way) server. We know it, you know it, everybody else knows it.

We’re not likely to play against each other for quite a while, unless there’s a major shuffling of server ratings after this tournament is over – we’re at the top of T8 and you’re at the bottom of T7. If either of us moves in the obvious direction, we just swap places.

Be classy, and when we eventually do fight, make the most mocking matchup thread you can. And I’d share my extra tickets with you if I could. <3

twoscoops.6913:

Any word from Anet on whether we’ll be able to get the meta achievement after this Friday’s reset?

I’ve got to tell you, and this isn’t meant in a bad way: if you haven’t been able to do this after nearly nine full weeks of availability, you’re not going to get it in two days.

That said, I had it before the first weekend was out. Find a group, and go do stuff. It’ll be more tedious if you’re trying to do it all at once, but there’s still time.

If you’ve just started the game or just come back from vacation or something and have none of the meta done… same thing. Get some snacks, lock the door, and run when your server is at its most active to get the bulk of them, and do the lesser things like ruins and sentries when there’s nobody else to play with.

But you have to want it. Go on Rocky! You eat lightning and crap thunder!

Dayra.7405:

1. Dynamic map shut down, e.g. when less than X (100?) players in the match (sum of all 3 teams) only eternal map, when more than X but less than Y (500?) players in the match only the 3 borderland maps, only when more than Y players are in the match all 4 maps can be played. Shutdown maps also do not count for scoring. (to avoid unwanted switch, make a margin of some players)

God no, not like this. At lower levels and with fewer people it’s the borderlands that make the difference, not EBG.

But a dynamic map cap isn’t a bad idea – raise it by fives (party size) and watch the results for a couple of months. Then adjust or scrap as necessary.

Dosvidaniya.3260:

Rimmy.9217:

That said, can AR beat EB? Absolutely. But did AR do as well in their tier as EB did in theirs? No.

Weird and unsatisfying as this method is, I’m glad that it’s not entirely about population. And yes, I’m from EB.

/bias

That’s the most arbitrary justification I’ve ever heard. You guys fell out of silver and hadn’t come close to being stable when the tourney started. If I use the average from the 4 weeks prior to the tourney, you’ve dropped from 21.5 to 22. Just because you stayed at the top of the bottom three doesn’t mean you’ve done better than the guy who stays at the bottom of the 3 servers higher. It’s silly.

Lets be honest, you’re happy simply because the nonsense that is this leaderboard opted to place you higher than you should be. I’d be happy if that happened to me. Never the less, it is something that has to be fixed. A server shouldn’t place lower than someone they beat unless the entire system is based on improvement.

I didn’t say I was happy, I said it was weird and unsatisfying, did I not? And I also noted that EB and AR are (Mork laughing?) in different tiers.

It doesn’t matter to me that we came in sixth of nine (regardless of how ANet deals with medal ties), or that because of the structure of the tournament that we are placing above a server that has beaten us both times we were matched up AND can continue to do so in future matches, as things stand.

The only thing that I said I was glad about was that the final results (in Bronze) weren’t entirely about population, since if that’s what we wanted Anet could have simply ranked us like that with their data.

I’m also not advocating that this method be used in the future, although I did like it better that season one’s method. Note that in season one EB was in the higher end of Silver and the round robin style was satisfying and interesting. But would be a disaster to us in the last tier now.

Being as gutted as we are now, the current system is more satisfying since even the lowliest tier 7 sever can k-train us senseless with their superior numbers, so staying where we are gives us more even fights than we would get otherwise.

And even fights are where it’s fun, at least for me. Don’t want to be crushed by servers with a huge population over us, and don’t want to roll over servers with miniscule populations compared to ours.

I’m sorry if our servers’ relative placing bothers you. Maybe if/when season three happens EB will be in a better position such that it can bring a mutually satisfying fight to AR.

Jeknar.6184:

So you’re telling me that just because someone dumped 100g on a commander tag I need to obey this guy? That anything else that I do if I’m not with him is worthless?

Look friend, I don’t play the game to have some random dude barking orders on my ear and raging when things go bad. If I wanted that I would work overtime... I play the game to relax and have fun…

Just because I’m not taking part of the zergfest it doesn’t mean I’m not helping my server. I’m out there (solo or with friends) taking camps/towers, watching and reporting enemy movement, getting some points by killing dolyaks/sentries/roamers, etc… Saying that I “don’t fight for the cause” just because I’m not following the blue-dorito-man sounds to me like a cry of someone that think WvW is all about mindless PvDoor with 100man map-blobs. And I belive I’m not the only one that do this…

WvW has flaws, but what make it worse are the player’s attitudes…

I’m with you – we have a “commander” like this on our server. Oh, the tears and rage when he’s not slavishly adhered to. And Balthazar forbid you should dare to say anything which may imply that he missed a detail or didn’t do something important – tantrums and stamping of feet.

Oh, and hides in a guild Vent rather than on the community TS when trying to command. Firmly believes that anyone with a tag up must be respected, listened to, obeyed, and never questioned.

Fewer Queegs and more Arthur Curries, I say!

Dosvidaniya.3260:

Explanation: This tournament has a number of issues. I’ve just discovered that AR (the server I’m associated with) is going to place 7th; while a server (EB) we’ve beaten twice out of the two matchups with them is placing 4th. How did that happen? Well, the two times that we’ve had the same number of points, ANet arbitrarily put AR into the higher bracket and left EB in the lower bracket so they could get the extra points while we lost them. End result is that AR who is the 2/2 victor over EB places 7th compared to their 4th.

Or EB is in sixth place. Or EB is tied for third place. ANet hasn’t come right out and told us how ties are going to be dealt with, last season and current speculation notwithstanding.

That said, can AR beat EB? Absolutely. But did AR do as well in their tier as EB did in theirs? No.

Weird and unsatisfying as this method is, I’m glad that it’s not entirely about population. And yes, I’m from EB.

/bias

The following link proposing how to do a future tournament is still brilliant. I have shamelessly stolen it from another thread, but all credit to the original author.

Edit: added YouTube link

soistheman.7208:

• Free server transfer dead line should have been 2 to 4 weeks before the season started, so that population shifts would have been reflected to server rating and servers competes in proper league.
• Swiss style scoring was pretty bad. (People already said enough on this topic)
• Rewards. I don’t think it is fair to give the same amount of rewards to anybody who completed meta achievement, especially this season because it was so much easier to complete it. People who spent 9 weeks playing WvW should receive more rewards than who spent 1-3 weeks just for meta. Maybe tickets should have been obtainable by taking keeps, towers, or killing other players. This way people who spend more time WvWing will get extra tickets at the end of the season.

I like the transfer cutoff period, but your second point about proportional rewards?

Unless you do all of the pre-events to get a temple or world boss going, you should get less out of the final chest than people who just come in for the finale? Is that the kind of game community you want to shift to?

bob.8632:

IMO Xfer to ET.

They could use the people.

Jeknar.6184:

That’s the difference between us and you… We don’t have a permanent presence on any map. The only map where we have a more-or-less permanent presense is on ET BL, and sometimes this end up being 5 people defending against 20+ man zergs while EBG and other maps have literally 0 people on it. You can’t really do much like this.

Sometimes I play 8+ hours in EBG and I never see the outnumbered buff go out. And unless a guild group decide to push an enemy borderland, you’ll never see ET on it, maybe except for a few roamers flipping camps and paper towers.

I don’t know wtf happen in ET… We start strong on reset, and after everyone go sleep on friday we pretty much roll over and die for the rest of the week.

Now on a side note, I don’t know why the hell people from our server are posting on your forums… These people don’t like other servers posting on ours (I know some that were even banned from our forum) and it’s a shame to see that we have people doing the very same that they say to dislike.

Our server is open for people to post on, we truly don’t mind. And it gets a fair amount of traffic too! More of you should join and post there – we’re likely to be in the same tier for a while, so we may as well benefit from it.

I didn’t link that thread to say “Look at this bad guy!”, I linked it to say that if videos are being made to boost server morale, then posting it on the home site of the server your video shows you killing probably isn’t going to get you mad props.

The double link to the same video in his signature might be going a bit overboard, though.

And when I said more-or-less permanent presence on EBG, I just meant that if people are on at all, chances are they’re there. If you see anything larger than a party on another map, chances are we have a skeleton crew (going right down to a single player) back on EBG while the group has shifted maps and is running around.

You DO start strong on reset, every time. Like you said, I don’t know why you guys don’t push more during the week. Is your population working sixteen hour days or something?

We do like that you and Kaineng seem to have found some common ground, though. This weekend it seems like there’s been some cooperation, and that’s exactly what should happen.

And might I add, before I (hopefully) stop hijacking this thread, that your evening defenders are a pain in my hindquarters – I’m getting to the point where I recognize them by their silhouettes at a distance… they are very unforgiving on lone or twosome roamers.

EDIT: added invitation to post on our forum

NonToxic.9185:

We never outweighed you, that was a huge joke to us. On the same day that this recruitment thread was started, you guys had a big old mob roaming about Eternal Battlegrounds dropping the Outnumbered buff on us. Every reset night you have a bunch of guys in our borderland, dropping catas constantly at Bay, while still having a group presence in Eternal Battlegrounds. ET (tries to) defends those two maps with the same group of people.

Not exactly.

We have a more-or-less permanent presence in EBG, since lots of people think EBG matters on low-population servers.

What we have on the other maps are roamers and randoms. Sometimes they’ll get together and do something, often they won’t.

But sometimes, when things are solid in EBG, a group will break off and go to one of the BLs, and anybody already there will also go to them, and that’s where those “groups on two maps” come from.

I get the outnumbered buff most of the time too, you know. Our videos reflect that.

That said, towards the end of the tournament we are definitely seeing fewer of you guys in the field. But you’ve definitely mixed up your gameplay and tactics, which is fun.

It’s a pity we didn’t doubleteam AR when both of us were getting k-trained.

Spica.9308:

The game should encourage 2v1 on the winning server for better rewards and discourages double teaming either the 2nd placer or the 3rd placer (which happens 95% of the time). The point systems need some more variety that doesn’t favor zerging everything and giving losing servers more chances to even the score. Make it harder for 1st place to keep its lead and the rest to catch-up.

I could definitely get behind this.

Roadbull.3457:

My question is. Why does the community seem to hate ET? Recruitment threads get trolled, other servers/guilds throw a giant fits over attempts to improve morale like zerg fight videos to the point of harassing folks through whispers and holding grudges like ET isn’t allowed to win a fight because we’re supposed to be the ones who roll over and just die, and even our chance to escape last was foiled because we were focused on the week we had a chance to avoid it.

I don’t hate you.

However… if a “zerg fight video” is meant to improve morale, then why post it on our forum? http://www.ehmry.com/topic/4643-et-vs-eb/

Yes, we are happy to see how we look from someone else’s point of view, but did you think it would be all “Great job ET, you guys certainly ran tight in the face of impossible odds!”?

And then posted the same silly thing in your recruiting thread and on reddit, as though it was something that would bring adoration and panties flung at you from the audience? Come on now.

As I said in the thread that I linked above, I do rather like fighting you guys. And not in a quaint pat on the head sort of way, I mean I like fighting you guys. I tend to be more of a roamer so I’m the guy flipping your camps a little faster than you can respond, but you do have roamers and very small groups that are a pleasure to fight.

Not all of them, but some.

What I want to know is, why is there such a difference in your server between the start of the tournament and now at the end? Not how you’ve become trollier, because that’s pretty fun. I’ll be keeping an eye out for a guild in particular for more of that kind of fun.

But what happened to your numbers? At first, you guys clearly outweighed us in population, and not just from the achievement hunters either. But it’s like you burned out early, and that’s a shame.

We started a bit slower (after having our WvW scene wiped out) but have managed to keep a few of the achievement hunters, and they have developed nicely into contributing members of the scene.

We don’t hate you. We’re one of you, in tier 8.

Khadez.4958:

from my personal experience 90% of times I hear someone using “noob” it is in an offensive context and aimed against new players who may not know all the tricks yet. And I find that annoying.

I find it annoying when people jump into a map in WvW and say in map chat “Where’s the zerg?” because it’s aimed at keeping players in WVW unskilled beyond bumbling along in a big group spamming 1 and autolooting. I would like zerg also put on the censored list, please.

Or, I could realize that as a member of a civilization, not everybody is going to cater to my personal feelings about things.

Someone is saying “noob” in a derogatory fashion? Well, then either they’re having a go at someone for not already knowing something, which is mental and should be discounted… or they are unaware of what the word, at root, means. Which makes them a “noob” at vocabulary. You can take a noob calling you a noob just for the irony, can’t you?

I can remember a few people in this game saying we shouldn’t use “pug” to refer to randoms that followed our guild group around for much the same same reasons you’ve listed above.

People need to be less sensitive about what people they don’t know say in situations that don’t matter.

No Walking.6349:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

The loot would have to better than a champions chests to get me in there.

I hate jumping puzzles.

I think world boss quality would be perfect. Maybe a world boss chest with a single random account bound superior siege blueprint.

Better earn a world boss chest, then. Throw a world chest type boss into the mix – one that can stomp randomly and shake people off of ledges or interrupt jumps. Maybe even damage the route forward such that you have to burn supplies to repair it. And it should be impossible to solo, ultimately found on a small platform, and you are likely to find yourself being affected by any aoes that people from other servers drop on it.

You want the loot? Earn it. Otherwise… it’s a jumping puzzle – it already gives you all you deserve for running through a familiar maze and hitting the pellet-dispensing lever.

Dean Calaway.9718:

Title says it all.

On both tournaments now we’ve seen a lot of interest from people in the first few weeks that slowly goes away as all the achievements are completed.
And from PvE~LS experience we know people love to go around getting as many achievements as they possibly can.

I suggest instead of having the WvW achievements by season, make them by week as an incentive for players to come back and feel rewarded for their playtime.

If just playing WvW isn’t reward enough for your time, then perhaps it isn’t for you.

This idea that you need to be given “stuff” to “reward” you makes it seem like you’re trying to get people to do some slightly unpleasant task, like helping you move and you buy pizza.

If non-WvWers don’t want to play, and don’t want to help earn the Power of the Mists bonuses for themselves and their server, that’s fine. If the non-WvWers that came to get their achievements in the first week or two didn’t enjoy the experience enough to come back after getting their little popups, then we don’t need them now.

The last thing you want to do is fill the map population with bored farmers. Let them do something they enjoy more, rather than coercing them to be somewhere they don’t enjoy.

inazuma.7021:

Rimmy.9217:

inazuma.7021:

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

What a great idea! Then a stacking server can resort to the tactic that got it to tier 1 in the first place – more stacking!

Maybe if the one server were allowed up to 160, but that wasn’t what I suggested. They’d still be outnumbered, just not as hopelessly. The idea is to make 2v1 a viable tactic for evening the odds, not dominating them.

Fair enough, how about this: points scored by players in wvw go to the servers the accounts originally started on.

That way, people still get their fun fight and can play together wherever they like, but server stacking isn’t rewarded.

If server stacking isn’t rewarded, then there’s no need to penalize any Jenga server by completely negating their stacked advantage. Over time, people that want to make a difference reflected in PPT will leave servers they don’t originate from, stacked servers’ wvw populations will normalize, and the smugly superior tones of their forum posts will have to be backed up with actual playing skill.

Granted, it won’t save “server who must not be named” from not making first place in this tournament, but these things take time.

Then, if 2v1 turns out to be an actual problem, rather than just a tantrumy one, we can revisit the game mechanics.

Yak’s Bend and Ehmry Bay.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/matchups/Yaks-Bend-Stormbluff-Isle-Ehmry-Bay/first

Ayrilana.1396:

A lot of people don’t seem to grasp the concepts of natural 2v1, coordinated 2v1, and match manipulation. I don’t know if it’s just failure to actually see what is going on but commenting anyway as if they do know or lack of knowledge about the meaning of those concepts.

Natural 2v1 is what you normally see all the time in WvW which is unavoidable. For example, when green is attacking blue’s keep, red then goes and flips the rest of blue’s assets. That is natural 2v1 as it is normally situational and very short.

Coordinated 2v1 deviates from natural 2v1 since there is communication between the two servers who wish to form an alliance to go after the third.

Match manipulation is where two servers agree to form an alliance for an entire match against the third server where they do not attack each other and trade wins.

For those discounting arguments made by players on specific servers because they’re on a specific server, I suggest you google ad hominem fallacy.

From that font of all knowledge, Wikipedia. First line:

“In organized sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law. "

It’s not against the rules, it’s not against the CoC, and 2v1 has been endorsed by the devs and is built into the game. “Natural” and “coordinated” are meaningless differences, since ALL 2v1 is acceptable.

And while you’re having people look things up, perhaps you’d care to google the self-serving bias, rather than accuse people that don’t agree with you of ad hominem attacks.

Because buying players/guilds and stacking servers is “organic” and okay, but sharing channels on TS isn’t?

For the game mode to be actually fair, as opposed to letting certain servers (like your own) think that whatever they do is good and therefore okay, then coverage would have to be limited to whatever the lowest of your opposing servers has on at the time.

Oh, they only have six people on EBG? Then that’s all your server gets to field as well.

Is that the kind of “fair” you’re looking for? We can use other metrics as well – that other server’s group of six is made up of pugs? Then no guild groups for YOUR server right now either.

One of them is a gold, two are silvers, one bronze and two others? That’s all you get too.

See what happens when you throw around the idea of “fair”? I refer you back up this thread a few posts where I suggested that Jenga Prime server funds the return of all the people it has stacked itself with, and for the rest of the tournament it doesn’t get 2v1ed. There’s your fair.

Straegen.2938:

The GW1 problem was players were reward for NOT participating. The GW2 WvW 2v1 situation still requires all of the servers to participate and fight. It is not an automatic reward for showing up and collecting a massive amount of rewards for doing nothing.

If somehow TC, JQ and BG could start a match, resign, get rewards and repeat then yes it would be a problem.

+1 for plainly posting why RR can’t be twisted into precedent for any Jenga server that can’t buy its way out of a 2v1.

We can feel that they served as a useful cautionary tale about fairweathering in the future.

inazuma.7021:

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

What a great idea! Then a stacking server can resort to the tactic that got it to tier 1 in the first place – more stacking!

How about if “stacked server who strip-mined other servers of their wvw players and guilds and set that as the meta to which others subsequently imitated” dips into their war chest and pays for those people to go back to where they came from, and for the remainder of the tournament all of the other servers in which aforementioned Jenga server finds itself in matches with agree to not 2v1 it?

And in the future, remember the name of the Half-Life chapter where you first get to actually play before you so selfishly affect other people’s gaming experience: Unforeseen Consequences.

Nick.6972:

And no, I’m not from BG. That being said, I fail to see how anyone could ever justify two zergs spawn camping, maybe that’s what people like, I don’t know.
What I do know that there’s absolutely nothing being done to make WvW more enjoyable/balanced for everyone regardless of the server and Arena Net is showing no interest whatsoever.

Clearly you’ve never been on an underpopulated server in a match against one (or two) fully populated ones.

The kind where, desperate to get some no-effort kills (and it is no effort – 4 or more to one with siege means you can skill 1 your way to bags) your BL and EBG spawns are a deathtrap the moment you step out from protection.

Or when your low population server is up against servers with people to spare as scouts so that the moment you actually manage to scrape ten people together to start Siegerazor (by pulling people off of other maps – I kid you not) their 30+ person zerg rolls in as the gates go down, to take you at your most vulnerable.

As I’ve said in posts on previous threads which have since been locked, it’s hard to care about the tears from stacked servers when they are experiencing what those of us on the servers that were stripmined to stack them experience as just the reality of the game.

You want to have some actual fun in the game instead of just riding the coattails of a server’s name and the fading traces of lost glory? Drop to a lower tier server and play the game. Your personal contributions will actually mean something, win or lose.

If you just want bags and to quack along with the zerg of ducklings, stay on a stacked server. Watching youtube videos from those servers, it’s hard to see the difference between them and EotM aside from the scenery.

Balance is for SPvP, not for WvW. But clearly people picked up on that early, what with war chests and cherry picking from other servers.

It seems that people massively invested in the past meta meta are slow to adapt to the new meta meta.

Wear a helmet.

BAITness.1083:

Rimmy.9217:

Sir or madame, I don’t have to give a lick of “proof” – that burden is entirely on you. Your first post in this thread was talking about how commanders NOT on your server were doing such and such for such and such reasons.

Proof please.

What I’ve given you is what I’ve seen (having been there in the chat when a representative purporting to be from BG was INITIATING the buying process, which you claim never happened. I was there, and didn’t see you, but BG never did that. Interesting.

I’ve given you a perspective from servers that somehow have to continue to play, tearless, when they are hopelessly outmatched because of population imbalances (as you are right now), often as a result of either BG buying, or the knockoff effect of other servers doing the same thing as they copy what the #1 server did to get to be on the top.

Let me offer you another bit of perspective – IF it turns out that Blackgate implodes after the season as a result of this (and don’t scoff it off – others have), and you choose to continue to play after that, which of the two choices available to you will you pick?

Will you bandwagon to another server that you think will place high the next time there is a season, possibly hoping to capitalize on “I was on Blackgate when it was still great”?

Or will you ride the ruin of it down to the bronze tiers, and learn how to defend your entire map with five people against a zerg of 40+ and roamers taking back the occasional camp you manage to capture?

You may want to consider that if there is enough ill will towards BG, the 2v1ing may not stop with the season. You may just find yourselves being pushed downward week after week after week.

I know that you’re still at the point where you can’t imagine tier three servers being able to even touch you, but even if the 2v1 doesn’t work that week, there’s always the next one. And the next.

Good luck with that ticket to ANet.

Wait I am sorry, are JQ and TC denying these things now? I thought they were still bragging about it.

The burden of proof isn’t on me if they are admitting it. I can link you earlier posts in pretty much any topic right now – it is flooded with them bragging about it. If you are really going to feign ignorance to that level (god I hope you are feigning) I will link them for you when I wake up.

But no, the burden of proof is on you, telling me things are happening. You tell me you see people initiating the buying process. I challenge you to do simple math. Calculate how much gold it would cost to move a 60 person guild. You are telling me that BG not only afforded moving multiple guilds over, but managed to pay them for their time as well. But you can’t even name the guilds? Surely we bought a lot. You have lots of names to pick from. Right?

What JQ and TC are or aren’t denying doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. You seem to still be operating under the delusion that I’m from one of those servers. As I replied to you when you alluded to that earlier: check my sig.

Who said I couldn’t name guilds? Where did I saw that Blackgate paid people for their time above the transfer costs? You seem to be taking a lot of liberties with conditions that YOU set. You “challenge” me? I challenge you right back – submit your ticket to ANet for the “violation of the CoC”. ANet is the final judge, not you. If nothing changes, you were wrong. QED

The argumentum ad hominem (that either I’m ignorant or feigning ignorance because only what you say can be right despite all of the various unrelated people demolishing your “proofs”) is a tactic of desperation where you will, based on how you’ve quoted great swathes of posts and then replied to only a smidgen of what they contain rather than the whole, you will pick to find the tiniest inconsistency and then crow proudly, proclaiming the entire point and indeed position to be fundamentally flawed as a result.

You, with a biased opinion and personal stake in the outcome, proclaim that others are in violation of the Code of Conduct. Loads of people, some with stakes some without, have countered every point you’ve cared to make. And you demand proof rather than offer it?

And your links have already been shown to validate the story of your detactors, not your own point.

So? What have you got?

BAITness.1083:

You continue to make claims without providing proof. Show me the guilds BG bought. Surely they bought a lot in season 2, since they were getting their butts kicked leading up to it. Can you at least show me one so I can ask them about their harrowing experience?

Also, this is another person saying that BG could never handle losing when it is literally all that BG has done for months. It is much more so that JQ and TC can’t handle losing literally one match.

I am not kidding. That was the first match BG won in 10 weeks.

All this crap about BG deserving what it is getting is the two servers spreading their BS to justify their cheating. If you are starting to buy into the negative things they are saying, I challenge you to prove them for these trolls. They are not willing to, but you might be.

Sir or madame, I don’t have to give a lick of “proof” – that burden is entirely on you. Your first post in this thread was talking about how commanders NOT on your server were doing such and such for such and such reasons.

Proof please.

What I’ve given you is what I’ve seen (having been there in the chat when a representative purporting to be from BG was INITIATING the buying process, which you claim never happened. I was there, and didn’t see you, but BG never did that. Interesting.

I’ve given you a perspective from servers that somehow have to continue to play, tearless, when they are hopelessly outmatched because of population imbalances (as you are right now), often as a result of either BG buying, or the knockoff effect of other servers doing the same thing as they copy what the #1 server did to get to be on the top.

Let me offer you another bit of perspective – IF it turns out that Blackgate implodes after the season as a result of this (and don’t scoff it off – others have), and you choose to continue to play after that, which of the two choices available to you will you pick?

Will you bandwagon to another server that you think will place high the next time there is a season, possibly hoping to capitalize on “I was on Blackgate when it was still great”?

Or will you ride the ruin of it down to the bronze tiers, and learn how to defend your entire map with five people against a zerg of 40+ and roamers taking back the occasional camp you manage to capture?

You may want to consider that if there is enough ill will towards BG, the 2v1ing may not stop with the season. You may just find yourselves being pushed downward week after week after week.

I know that you’re still at the point where you can’t imagine tier three servers being able to even touch you, but even if the 2v1 doesn’t work that week, there’s always the next one. And the next.

Good luck with that ticket to ANet.

BAITness.1083:

Rimmy.9217:

BAITness.1083:

Rimmy.9217:

BAITness.1083:

But of course I am applying my own interpretation to CoC, it is all I can do. I think win trading to guarantee first and second does sound like a really safe bet for manipulating the rankings of a ladder though.

ANet’s interpretation > your interpretation.

When ANet suspends JQ and TC’s wins, feel free to quote this back at me and I’ll admit you were right about violations to the CoC.

I read the PvP section of the CoC as very clearly talking about SPvP, not world versus world. I’m totally comfortable with being told I’m wrong by an ANet representative.

Of course ANet’s interpretation is the one that matters. Just like you said. Until they say something though, all I can do is speculate. Right now I speculate that rules against PvP match manipulation mean you can’t organize a 2v1 and trade wins to secure first and second place in a wvw tournament.

If that interpretation is wrong though, then WvW has a much bigger problem than my being bummed I didn’t get it right.

Stretching PvP to cover WvWvW is exactly that – a stretch.

Honestly, I know it sucks. I know that looking forward and knowing that this will happen to you for the rest of these matches sucks.

If and until ANet decides to intercede, there’s nothing you can do about it. And they won’t, and they shouldn’t.

Hopefully when it’s all over you guys will be able to redefine yourselves as a server such that people will be interested in what Blackgate does, rather than just being sardonically amused that the most obviously prolific of match manipulators has had their ego bruised.

When season two is over, there will be the analysis threads and people will post their views. You should post then. You should also read the other posts.

Especially the ones that aren’t commiserating with you. And before you say “unfair” in regards to how you are collectively being treated, just for kicks try to work out what the collective you have done to evoke that from others.

And knock it off.

That is just it. BG didn’t do anything. You and the trolls from TC and JQ are trying to justify 2v1 win trading match fixing scheme to give yourselves first and second. You and those like you come here and accuse BG of being some scumbag of a server. But you never bring any proof.

The only proof there is, is JQ and TC giving the middle finger to ANet and their tournament, fixing matches and trading wins at the expense of the other four servers in the league so they can get 50 extra tickets they won’t spend until next season.

All that because JQ and TC didn’t finish in first place, for the first time in over two months.

I’m not getting first or second. Check the tagline, dude. I’m also not trolling you.

Match fixing – if you’re going to call people taking paper keeps off of each other match fixing, then I’m going to call buying people and guilds from other servers in anticipation of a wvw season match fixing, since it is a) calculated to give your server an advantage it wouldn’t otherwise have during the matches and b) detrimental to the servers you entice players away from.

BG did plenty, but it doesn’t even have to answer for it. Partly as a result of enmity it’s generated by very selfish actions against the community as a whole, it is now experiencing… what it is experiencing.

The only thing unique to Blackgate’s current situation is, it’s going to trend downward. Those of us on other servers are used to a certain amount of up and down, but BG has been sitting up top for so long that it’s bought into it’s own myth and blithely brushed over its own history of callous disregard for the effects its actions have had on others.

It’s clear you’re unwilling to accept this, or unable to imagine a GW2 where Blackgate isn’t on top. But here you are. What are you going to do about it?

BAITness.1083:

Rimmy.9217:

BAITness.1083:

But of course I am applying my own interpretation to CoC, it is all I can do. I think win trading to guarantee first and second does sound like a really safe bet for manipulating the rankings of a ladder though.

ANet’s interpretation > your interpretation.

When ANet suspends JQ and TC’s wins, feel free to quote this back at me and I’ll admit you were right about violations to the CoC.

I read the PvP section of the CoC as very clearly talking about SPvP, not world versus world. I’m totally comfortable with being told I’m wrong by an ANet representative.

Of course ANet’s interpretation is the one that matters. Just like you said. Until they say something though, all I can do is speculate. Right now I speculate that rules against PvP match manipulation mean you can’t organize a 2v1 and trade wins to secure first and second place in a wvw tournament.

If that interpretation is wrong though, then WvW has a much bigger problem than my being bummed I didn’t get it right.

Stretching PvP to cover WvWvW is exactly that – a stretch.

Honestly, I know it sucks. I know that looking forward and knowing that this will happen to you for the rest of these matches sucks.

If and until ANet decides to intercede, there’s nothing you can do about it. And they won’t, and they shouldn’t.

Hopefully when it’s all over you guys will be able to redefine yourselves as a server such that people will be interested in what Blackgate does, rather than just being sardonically amused that the most obviously prolific of match manipulators has had their ego bruised.

When season two is over, there will be the analysis threads and people will post their views. You should post then. You should also read the other posts.

Especially the ones that aren’t commiserating with you. And before you say “unfair” in regards to how you are collectively being treated, just for kicks try to work out what the collective you have done to evoke that from others.

And knock it off.

BAITness.1083:

But of course I am applying my own interpretation to CoC, it is all I can do. I think win trading to guarantee first and second does sound like a really safe bet for manipulating the rankings of a ladder though.

ANet’s interpretation > your interpretation.

When ANet suspends JQ and TC’s wins, feel free to quote this back at me and I’ll admit you were right about violations to the CoC.

I read the PvP section of the CoC as very clearly talking about SPvP, not world versus world. I’m totally comfortable with being told I’m wrong by an ANet representative.

mango.9267:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

mango.9267:

HARDOFREADING.7298:

heh If you wanna fight without honor…I’ll fight sans honor as well…But wvw gets extremely ugly from here out…

There was never “honor” in WvW. How can drastically outnumbering your opponents and PvDooring their structures overnight be considered “honorable”? That’s what determines 90% of WvW outcomes.

The only difference is that BG players QQing here have never experienced what every other server experiences regularly. That’s what makes it so annoying to read.

SO this is what I don’t understand about these posts… you make fun of BG players like NOW YOU KNOW how we feel. WHy are u directing that at the players of BG instead of arenanet? There the ones in charge of balancing the game not bg players, ur complaining to the wrong people and in the process just making everyone mad.

I don’t get it.

This is literally unbelievable. Have you ignored the tons and tons of posts about ways Anet can fix PPT, reduce the influence of coverage, prevent PvDoor, etc., etc.? How have you not read any of those? Or is it the case that because BG players never suffered from any of those problems before that they weren’t pressing enough to address?

We’ve been directing all of this frustration at Anet for over a year. And yet, you somehow missed that and decided that we’re only attacking BG. That’s even more annoying.

1) BG comes to the forums to QQ about being outnumbered.
2) Other servers point out how they have to deal with being outnumbered unfairly all the time.
3) You victimize BG again, claiming we’re venting frustration at BG instead of Anet, ignoring the thousands of threads posted about these problems for over a year. If you’d perused the forums for even 5 minutes, you’d realize that every single issue BG is QQing about has been brought up before.

Again, the reason this is so annoying to read is that other servers deal with situations much worse than the one BG’s in. They QQ far less than BG does and have tried to address the problems productively. But only now that BG is losing, we’re getting flooded by all these posts acting like BG is an oppressed server and demanding a “fair” fight, conveniently ignoring the fact that WvW hasn’t ever been fair and that people have tried to address that since the game’s release.

Beautifully summed up. +1

BAITness.1083:

Actually you are being misled by a lot of the trolls. Blackgate has not been ranked at the top of WvW since the beginning of February. Even after winning the first two weeks of this season, we did not get ranked first. See BG ranking here:
http://mos.millenium.org/servers/history/33

This is actually the top two ranked servers conspiring against the third and the rest of the servers in gold league, because they lost for the first time in over 2 months.

And just for clarity’s sake, BG did previously help people move over, but never did anything beyond donate a portion of the transfer fees. Nobody has ever come even close to making a profit via jumping to BG, it just seemed like a nice thing to do to lower the cost to people that want to play with you.

No, you’ve been ranked at the top for the past year or so. A little dip in the numbers before the season started changes nothing. Rome wasn’t at its height when it finally fell, but they don’t make endless movies about the Visigoths, do they?

And nobody outside of tier 1 is too concerned about anybody “conspiring”. You’ve being 2v1ed. That’s what’s happening. Do they have an agreement to do so? Who cares?

Where were all the posts by concerned Blackgate players when this was happening before in different tiers and brought up on the forum, if it’s such an issue?

And just for clarity’s sake, BG did previously help people move over, but never did anything beyond donate a portion of the transfer fees. Nobody has ever come even close to making a profit via jumping to BG, it just seemed like a nice thing to do to lower the cost to people that want to play with you.

For clarity’s sake, BG has solicited people and guilds to come to Blackgate. I’ve watched it happen, in person. Nobody said anything at all about a profit, so we can discard that distraction.

As for “it just seemed like a nice thing to do to lower the cost to people that want to play with you”, then where’s the package to the rest of the people in all of the servers that wouldn’t mind playing with you?

I’ll be sure to post back here when what’s left of my community starts getting their gold mailed from you.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

mango.9267:

HARDOFREADING.7298:

heh If you wanna fight without honor…I’ll fight sans honor as well…But wvw gets extremely ugly from here out…

There was never “honor” in WvW. How can drastically outnumbering your opponents and PvDooring their structures overnight be considered “honorable”? That’s what determines 90% of WvW outcomes.

The only difference is that BG players QQing here have never experienced what every other server experiences regularly. That’s what makes it so annoying to read.

SO this is what I don’t understand about these posts… you make fun of BG players like NOW YOU KNOW how we feel. WHy are u directing that at the players of BG instead of arenanet? There the ones in charge of balancing the game not bg players, ur complaining to the wrong people and in the process just making everyone mad.

I don’t get it.

You don’t get it?

It’s tier 1 servers that (first) started buying groups of people from “lesser” servers, leaving broken communities and chronically unbalanced tiers and matchups.

While this wasn’t against the rules, it left other servers experiencing exactly what Blackgate is experiencing right now – being completely outmanned all the time.

In your previous post, where you said “guess I’ll go play another game”? THAT’S what people remaining on stripped servers have done too, further affecting those left behind who still want to play.

The main difference, of course, is that they didn’t do anything to get themselves into that situation. Blackgate has.

And before you say “Well, other servers do it too – both Jade Quarry and Tarnished Coast do it!” you’re absolutely right, they do. And they suck just as much as Blackgate does for doing it.

But Blackgate has been sitting at #1 for a long time, and despite having the luxury of cherry picking great players from the orchard of wvw hasn’t given anything back to the servers they’ve ruined to get there.

And I say ruined, because other servers copy the model that seems to work the best. Blackgate is #1, so it must be the best. So the same crappy way of doing things gets imitated in smaller scale at lower tiers, making the whole problem worse.

That’s not on ANet – that’s on the people that have and continue to do it.

And all of the QQing posts that people make fun of? Those kinds of outmanned “unfair” matches that Blackgate is upset about is what the bulk of the other servers in NA have deal with EVERY WEEK. Not just for a couple of months of tournament, but all the time.

Except we didn’t do this to ourselves. We’ve never got any benefit from it.

And we don’t care that finally, finally it’s happening to you. Enjoy a taste of what you’ve forced so many others to gorge on.

Brother.1504:

1. Is a well managed 2v1 winnable by the out numbered server? Winnable in this context defined as not just fights but ppt and all other micro managed actions contributing to a match victory. All the chest pounding aside, WvWvW success is hugely influenced by the number of fighters a server can field at any one time.

2. Is formal collusion across multiple servers going to become the new gw2 WvWvW meta? Here’s the thing if transferring fighters to your opponents server means they now become your friend against whoever you fight, that seems game breaking to this player.

3. Is leveraging the number of fighters you can field at any one time due to friendly enemy flagged players colluding for a common goal acceptable? Is this buying to win?

Any way thought I would throw my 2 cents into the pot. All bad blood aside I am enjoying the fights this season. My concern is for the longevity of the game that seems to be going down a slippery slope..

1. Welcome to the reality of a non-stacked server up against one with a population advantage – this is exactly what it’s like. No matter where you are or what you’re doing, there’s a ridiculously larger group already there or able to respond at a moment’s notice.

Every fight you’re in you’re outnumbered 2:1, 3:1, 10:1… whatever. Yes, 10:1 sometimes.

Whatever level of autonomy your smaller team/groups can manage, your overpopulated opponent can do it better and in more places at the same time. Did you just capture a tower? Wonderful! Your opponent just captured half of the objectives on the map simultaneously while you did that, and are now standing outside the one where your RI is rapidly ticking down.

So you have to learn to suck it up. Are you from a server that has sought out people from other servers to come stack yours? The effects of a 2v1 and what I describe above is what you’ve left other servers to deal with.

You will find that it makes you a better player, if you continue to play. You get better because anything you can do number-wise (population, damage) can be outdone many times over by who you’re facing, and you have to include that in your play style. You have to make each skill count, you’ll learn the benefit of each pixel of terrain on the map, you’ll learn… that playing for PPT isn’t an option for you any more. You’ll learn that you’d better come to enjoy playing wvw for its own sake because there isn’t a lot of other options for you.

And you’ll learn to nurture the idea that people who transfer servers should be required to pay cash for it, not convert gold. It might not fix the problem, but it’ll certainly slow 25 stacks of desertion down to something you can accomodate.

Besides, what did you want? Server A hits server B hits server C hits server A? Is the diagram of wvw to be the universal recycling symbol? Two servers on one is sometimes winnable by the focused server, and immediately transfers full bragging rights to them should they do so.

2. What if it is? People are still talking about the second to last silver league match from season one where communication across servers lead to an upset from the predicted outcome. And frankly, if the final outcome of a series of matches are predictable then we should have more upsets.

Although one should keep in mind that a server isn’t a unified whole, no matter how it’s organized. Your server “colluding” with my server puts me under no obligation to do anything at all. I can still hit all of your assets and am still completely within the game model.

Even better – I can go along with it and then flip when you’re vulnerable or overextended… and it’s still okay.

If you’re from Blackgate as you alluded and this is one of umpteen threads motivated by the current focusing of you in your matches, then among other things you’re getting this because everybody likes to see the #1 fall. Especially one that, to a lot of people, lowered the bar on poor behavior and mindsets that has affected how the entirety of wvw is played in NA.

3. Buying to win is when the first copper is sent from one server to another as enticement to puff up population. Finding oneself in a position where that puffed up population doesn’t help? Wry amusement from the servers that provided you with the puff.

Perhaps the servers at the top of the gold league will square their mighty shoulders and find a strategy that the rest of us dregs can use when we are in similar matches and constantly overrun. Ideally one that doesn’t set a precedent for future destruction of servers.

We await the future innovations of our Glicko betters with marginal interst – we’re still dealing with the fallout of your last one.

Sera.6539:

My money is on the return of the Bazaar and the merchant appearing there.

This is what I’ve been assuming.

I bought all eighteen of mine (fifteen were bought when they were still soulbound, and the remaining three were just habit at that point) with gold converted to gems, and I’ve got more gold now than I did then.

People who try to do a “you have to harvest x amount of such and such to justify it” are missing out on a whole quality of life improvement.

If you don’t want the infinite tools, or can’t justify the expense to yourself, that’s fine. Maybe your style of gameplay won’t be enhanced by them. It’s been a godsend for me, though.

Malcolm.9671:

Mounts, in my opinion, would help with the immersion factor of the game.

engineers whip out a motorcycle

Edited to show bipolar reasoning.

Other than the very occasional exception (Taimi and her golem, as an example), people in the GW2 universe don’t use mounts. Yaks pull carts or haul bags. Other than statues, there are no stables full of horses.

That other games let you get mounts (Wow, Skyrim, whatever) is great. We don’t need them here.

But hey, I’m just one player. Let’s put mounts on the list of things to add to the game after Cantha/Elona, okay? We’ll revisit the issue then.

Coldin.2840:

My suggestion is that every map’s population cap will instead be based on the average number of players playing on that map per server. At the end of every tick, a new average is computed and set as the new cap. This way each map’s cap scales up and down based on the number of people playing at the time. It also keeps larger servers from completely outnumbering every other server, while still giving them a slight advantage.

Of course, there would still have to be some minimum and maximum numbers set so that maps don’t become completely unpopulated. There would also have to be some way to increase the caps during peak hours. In these cases, I suggest the cap increases by +5 per tick as long as at least two servers are queued and the average remains the same or higher than the last tick.

Coming from a low WvW population server (Ehmry Bay), your idea intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. +1

However, there’s the other side of the coin: what about servers with a wvw-heavy population who have built a community up that wouldn’t be able to play together under your system except on EotM?

As stated above, these aren’t “raid” bosses, so you are stuck in the archetypes of the wrong game.

Looking back on some of your old posts, there is a funny change – you used to talk about how dungeons were too hard and how they had to be made easier and nobody liked doing them.

Now you’re complaining about world bosses being too easy when they are zerged down… while you are doing the zerg train.

If you don’t like the way the world bosses scale (or don’t scale), then consider guesting to a different server that doesn’t zerg as much and you can enjoy the content and get to use more than just your autoattack.

I’m not sure that we have more than fifty actual WvWers anymore. And not those at the same time.

Tonight (Saturday) we had a great time on ET’s map, trying to take their Bay while they defended. We had a bigger turnout than I’ve seen in weeks and we sieged that sucker for about three hours before we finally buckled and they overran us.

They did a great job.

But we had casuals on, and people’s significant others and such, filling out our ranks.

Those of us that are left from the old halcyon days are tough as hell and slaughter the groups that roam at this tier… but there aren’t many left.

Congratulations on your points so far – we’ll press you this week and see if you can keep first place.