Guild Wars 2

I’d say make it so that traps reveal thieves, but that just push rangers further into a trap/condition only mindset.

Fellknight.4820:

So let me get this straight Thieves should get there stealth that makes them unique and has been the traditional role of there class. Which has also made them the most represented and played class in both tpvp and spvp.

But Rangers shouldn’t have track or reveal which has been there traditional role in MMO’s going back 15 years, without it making them the least played and represented class in tpvp and spvp. Sure makes alot of sense lol and your serious too!

I never said rangers shouldn’t get reveal. I said it shouldn’t be their class role, because countering a mechanic on one class (who even has builds without said mechanic I might add), is not enough to justify using a class.

Edit: To add to this, there is also notably no class mechanics in the game with a direct counter. You can’t remove adrenaline from a warrior, you can’t keep an elementalist from switching attunements, etc. I wouldn’t mind a reveal ability existing, as long as it’s within reason, but it should be noted either way.

Fellknight.4820:

I think it should be left up to players wether or not they would use the ultility slot. And alot ranger imbalances come from broken traits and nowhere did I say those traits shouldn’t be fixed. I don’t understand why it has to be all or nothing, just because they have track or reveal doesn’t mean there traits shouldn’t also be reworked but even if they were reworked there is no support role for a ranger that couldn’t be filled better by another class unless you rebuild them from the ground up and let’s face it that’s not going to happen. Being dps+ anti=stealth or track would definitely give them a place in tpvp and spvp they currently lack. I think you should let rangers decide wether or not they’d you use track or reveal lol not thieves.

First off, I play both ranger, and thief for the record. Thief being my most played, ranger my second. Second, why should thieves be left out of a discussion that directly concerns them?

The reason why I said it would be all or nothing is because of your opening post.

“Tracker
Stealth Revealer
In Guild Wars 2 both of those roles have been taken away leaving them no purpose in pvp whatsoever.
Worst of all this has directly impacted the game in pvp as now stealth has no hard counter. While every player is forced to remain on there toes and react almost instantly to stealth attacks there is absolutely nothing forcing stealther’s to keep on theirs.”

Your opening post directly says that this would be the ranger’s role, and the reason to play the class. The all or nothing was from you.

Fellknight.4820:

Because one class could mark reveal a thief with ground drop or track a thief in small radius would make them worthless nope there has shown no evidence of this in any MMO ever made to date. It has shown that without this thieves population is absolutely out of control and bustling to the brim.

Read my post again.

Having the ranger being dedicated to screwing over thieves would mean thieves would switch to another class when they see a ranger so they don’t need to deal with a hard counter.

With all thieves switching away when they see a ranger, the ranger himself loses his role.

In otherwords,

some thieves, some rangers = thieves useless, and thus switch class
no thieves, some rangers = rangers useless, and thus switch class creating
no thieves, no rangers = what no one wants

the other possible situation is

some thieves, no rangers where thieves will thrive.

Again, note that rangers on the battlefield would have to be absolutely necessary to defeat thieves, because no one is going to use one of five slots to counter one of eight classes otherwise. It would also have to be such a dramatic dominating of the thief to make up for the ranger’s lack of ability against every other class.

Your suggestion gives rangers a role that is useless against anyone who knows the metagame, and can act accordingly. It will hurt rangers more than thieves.

Fellknight.4820:

I understand why all of you thieves that are posting would oppose this but I’m sorry a ranger scout class without reveal or track is like having a thief without stealth you can’t name me any MMO that doesn’t have ranger/scout/hunter as a counter to stealth mechanics.

And I know you’ll deny stealth being overpowered but it is, and it needs a counter and rangers need a role in pvp there’s no way to bring them in line without having another class that can do that role better.

You’d freak out if they removed stealth from your class but currently rangers are the least tpvp and spvp class played in the game. This would give them a role in tpvp to stop roamer thieves and protect group mates from stealthers. You say learn to dodge when players complain about dieing in 3 seconds well learn to dodge when your marked.

There is no point to have a Ranger class without track or reveal might as well call them a marksmen then because it’s as silly as having a thief without stealth. You’d have to be out of your mind crazy liar to say that this class has a purpose without those two abilities. It’s silly you know it is but for some reason the people that post on these forums seem to live in some crazy world that breaks all the rules of previous MMO’s why not make a stealthing warrior because it makes about that much sense. And Currently a warrior with Rifle is better than any ranger build in the game.

As a thief, I’m more concerned that giving this kind of ability to the ranger will shoehorn him into being useless permanently.

It creates a role that requires the thief’s existence to be useful, and the thief to be otherwise destroying other classes to be meaningful enough to justify a slot in the team to protect against thieves (If thieves aren’t wrecking up other classes, then you’re not going to waste a slot on a class who can only counter them)

Also, imagine what would happen if it went through, and now having a ranger in the battle made thieves useless. You see the enemy has a ranger on their team in tPvP? All thieves suddenly switch to another class. Now the enemy rangers see there are no thieves, and realize they’d be better off as something else, and switch to. End result is no thieves, and no rangers because thieves won’t by fielded against rangers, and rangers won’t be fielded without thieves.

This is why having a single class dedicated to countering another single class is bad, and should never happen.

I don’t see how stealth tracking would really help the ranger. Does letting him screw up certain builds on two classes really give him a role worth bringing him in? Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring him up to a level comparable to all other classes rather than make him cheese a minority?

Sithaco.4673:

This is the problem, people don’t seem to realize that the thief isn’t the only class capable of high end glass cannon burst damage.

I know warriors have their bulls charge + frenzy + 100b combo as well as some rifle burst build I saw a while back (someone said it was a bug or something, not sure though)

And now this.

The killshot damage was partially caused by a bug, but nonetheless, we’re still seeing people being one-shotted by it after they fixed it.

Thieves if you don’t have a team to group with. Mesmers if you do.

Guardians, Mesmers, Necros, and Thieves are the ideal classes for tPvP in general.

Lukin.4061:

but that does not mean I would like playing a rocket jumping necromancer or bomb defusing engineer.

A rocket jumping necromancer sounds freaking awesome.

Make it happen Arenanet.

Doggie.3184:

I think only warrior is lucky enough to get a trait that boosts range of their range weapon.

Rangers get it to.

Zaxares.5419:

Alas, the Asura will all be destroyed by the Great Golem Uprising of 1997 AE, leaving Rata Sum in ruins, so enjoy your empire while it lasts, my dimunitive friends!

Until we lead the Golems through the Asuran gates into Divinity’s Reach of course.

Brutalistik.6473:

There is a move rangers have that should be on the warriors skills as well. I think its call rampage of the beast or something. They’re glowing red and it seems they’re immune to a lot of stuff until it wears off.

That’d be rampage as one, which grants Fury, Stability, and Swiftness for 20 seconds for both you, and your pet, as well as one stack of might for your pet for each time you hit your enemy, and one for you each time your pet hits an enemy.

It’s always funny roaming around the Charr or Norn starting areas, and getting comments from the newer players like “OMG you’re so tiny!”

PinCushion.7390:

At least we’re not getting mass DCed because 40 other dudes charged into battle the same time we did.

That actually happens to a lot of people. Hence the whole Lost Shores disconnect fiasco.

Thieves have a couple of allies that can stealth allies, and blast/leap finishers through smoke fields can cause stealth.

Rangers also have a trait called hide in plain sight where they stealth if they’re hit with a CC like stun, or knockdown (with a 90 second cooldown).

Asuran is straight up gangsta yo.

Munrock.3092:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

What role does a pet play in combat that can’t be done by other classes?

They can die inexpensively, which makes them risk-free mob pullers when you need to pull.

They count as one unit when a hostile AoE has a limit on the number of units it can affect (except when it’s down).

A portion of your DPS is outsourced to them, which sucks when you’re only DPSing, but it’s a portion of your DPS that keeps going (unless it’s down) when you’re ressing someone or activating an environmental object or shooing your cat off the keyboard. When you’re down yourself and have an opportunity to rally, it’s a huge amount of DPS that doesn’t go down with you (unless it’s also down).

It provides an extra utility skill (unless it’s down), and its automated skills apply conditions as well (unless it’s down).

It looks awfully cute (especially when it’s down).

Mostly every class can obtain pets/objects to act as an AoE target. Engineers can place 5 of them. Other examples include Elementals, ambush traps, and clones.

Also, the extra utility skill the pet has isn’t a role, and none of them do anything that other classes can’t do. Most are a simple stun, buff, or condition.

It’s with good reason Honour of the Waves is shortened to HotW, and not 1143.

Vekthor.8914:

Do the Asura even feel love?

They definitely feel love. There’s a couple of them who nearly get together before one of them kicks the bucket in the Orr section of the personal story.

For the most part, it comes down to a lack of a real place to call his own in the game.

Lets look at the classes for a moment.

Warriors: Can take lots of damage, and dish it out. Comes out on top when “butting heads together” so to speak.

Mesmer: Confuses and tricks opponents.

Thief: Stealthy, can quickly engage, and disengage in combat.

Guardian: Buffs, buffs everywhere.

Engineer: Tons of control, and adaptability with utility slots

Elementalist: Can change specialty on the fly

Necromancers: Corrupts boons, and feeds off the opponents around himself

Note how all these give the classes a role to call their own in combat, and something they can do. Rangers get a pet.

And here’s the kicker.

What role does a pet play in combat that can’t be done by other classes?

EatThisShoe.5136:

If we are to believe the damage formulas derived back in the beta:

Damage = Skill modifier * Weapon Damage * Power / Armor

Then toughness has always scaled poorly at least compared to power. Since Armor is toughness + defense from gear. To double your armor you would need twice as much toughness, as you would need power to double your power.

Isn’t Weapon Damage added to power, not multiplied?

The largest issue we have right now is culling, and channeling skills tracking us through stealth.

Its not to say that we don’t have other problems though.

Traps are for the most part useless. Tripwire, and spike trap, even if they were useful, are way too similar in use. There’s a lack of ability to trait towards trapping. Only thing that I recall us being able to do is decrease the cooldown by 20%.

Our build diversity is heavily limited. This is in part due to the thief’s mechanics making switching weapons in combat rarely a good idea, excluding the shortbow with its shadowsteps for escape. As a result, every thief build ends up incorporating the shortbow in some way.

Venoms are not only weak, but uninteresting to play with.

Case in point, skale venom is entirely pointless to anyone who has 15 points into Deadly Arts, and mostly useless to everyone else.

Psikerlord.2569:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Psikerlord.2569:

Daggerstorm. Also works a treat vs warrior rifle or anyone you want to cripple from 900. Enjoy

Rangers have melee weapons, and usually are carrying traps that’ll destroy a thief who does this.

1v1 daggerstorm is horrible, unless your enemy has no access to non-projectile attacks.

If/when the ranger switches to melee, stay at 900 with your daggerstorm, or cancel DS and switch to your ranged and ping ping ping, then commence burst, etc… many options. But main point is the daggerstorm eilte forces the ranger into melee, or at least sits him there eating free damage… after which … commence burst. win.
Re traps – agree – stay out of them. kill ranger first. then cap point.

Note the lack of any real situation given here. Thief switches to an undefined ranged weapon, keep 900 range on the ranger through undefined means, and commences a burst through undefined ways, and the ranger’s methods of self-defense are undefined.

Did you know that a ranger has one of the best gap closers on the greatsword?
Or can hold a melee weapon, and still have ranged options in one weapon set?

The ranger is underpowered in general, but you act as if he’s completely helpless, and just stands around whilst people kill him.

Very nice stuff here.

Nice.

ankdarkwolf.1487:

Is ranger really that useless? ò.ò
I love playing with my ranger and I don’t really feels so useless when some little chickens get stucked by my traps and they stay still like some big shooting targets.. But I’m not really a veteran in www so I’d like to know more of your opinion. Ty

The problem with rangers isn’t so much that they’re useless. You can do fine with them. It’s that they’re outperformed by other classes.

Defending atop walls? Rifle Warrior will do it much better.
Attacking a tower/keep/anything with a gate, and throwing traps up walls? Staff Ele will do it much better.

The only real nice thing they bring to the table is healing spring with its AoE condition cleansing, in addition to regeneration and water field, but it’s hardly enough to justify bringing the class to the battlefield.

Psikerlord.2569:

Daggerstorm. Also works a treat vs warrior rifle or anyone you want to cripple from 900. Enjoy

Rangers have melee weapons, and usually are carrying traps that’ll destroy a thief who does this.

1v1 daggerstorm is horrible, unless your enemy has no access to non-projectile attacks.

Currently I’ve got my daggers skinned with the red-ish pirate daggers from the Karma vendor after the jumping puzzle in Lion’s Arch, and the guild shortbow.

You should probably give us a screenshot of your character, so we can see how your character looks to find a better matching weapon skin.

Frye.4608:

Red Falcon.8257:

I think thief is in a balanced position in PvP now, but maybe somewhat weaker than it should in PvE.

@Frye
All glass cannons except Necros can total 12k+ dmg in 3 skills / 2-3sec.
Glass Eles totals 12k with Burning speed -> Fire grab -> Arcane Wave.
Glass Ranger hits for 12-15k in 2.5s with frenzied Rapid Fire.
Glass Warrior hits for 20k frenzy-bull-HB, 15k Killshot, 8-10k Volley.
Glass Mesmer hits for 18k with shatter.
Glass Engi totals 15-20k with that grenade combo thing.

Dude….get real! none of those can’t be avoided!

You are conveniently forgetting the stealth thing : you get the first hit, always. Like I said : against the others our glass ele at least has a chance. That still stands, even if other professions could also oneshot him.

In other words : thieves prevent other classes from also going glass cannon. Thats the problem.

“I’m a 30/30/0/0/10 warrior with full berserker gear, but because I have endure pain on my bar, I’m no longer a glass cannon.”

Keep in mind that attacks like unload, and sneak attack. We’d be able to keep an enemy frozen practically forever in pistol builds with that.

Pretty much all classes can play both a ranged, or melee role. There’s a few exceptions though.

Engineers can only use pistols, rifles, and shields, meaning that without kits, they’re going to be stuck with ranged attacks.

While elementalists have both long, and short range weapondry, they can’t weapon swap, meaning they’re mostly limited to one range while in battle.

Guardians are just flat out unreliable at range.

Other than that, all classes have decent ranged, and melee options open to them at the same time.

I recommend you make a few different characters of different classes, move into the heart of the mists via the PvP tab, and play around with them there. You’ll have access to all class skills, and traits, allowing you to test out what the class will play like at max level with whatever build pleases you. It’ll go a long way for finding what class you enjoy playing.

Someone did a blast finisher into a smoke field, and stealthed you probably

Can’t see it, due to WMG, but i’m going to take a wild guess, and say 2 evasive utilities, and one stealth. Along with at least 15 points into acrobatics

Am I on the right track?

Bunzy.8674:

Danepher.5263:

If you are screwed by numbers now, you’ll be screwed by numbers later after the downed state removed. No change.
.

I am screwed by numbers now because if I kill anyone they are immediately ressed by the enemy team before I can “finish” them off. If they were killed straight away they would either have to wait to get ressed after the fight or waypoint back and run to the location we are fighting.

Why don’t you use their allies reviving him as a chance to deal major damage to the rest of them? If they’re healing, they’re open to bursts, and every hit adds to the time it takes to rez the downed person.

Thieves: Clusterbomb
Eles: Half their skills
Warriors: Melee, really anything melee
Guardians: Melee, again
Necros: Wells, and marks
Engineer: bombs, gernades, both pistol, and rifle have multi-target hitting attacks
Ranger: Traps, Bonfire, Ricochet, sword
Mesmer: Shatter

Well, if they did want them to be cheaper on the trading post, there’s a much better way of doing that without creating a huge poverty gap in the game, and potentially harming the economy long-term.

Just increase the drop rate of them. No one-time chests, no hundreds of posts of arguments. Easily revertible if it turns out to be a bad idea.

Bump. Some clarity from Arenanet would be really appreciated. Many people waited the whole period before the build came up, and have no idea if we’ll be compensated or not.

Asuran male, because if you’re a thief, you may as well be egotistical as well.

Already does. What you’re seeing is either thieves heavily traited into shadow arts, or using multiple shadowsteps to quickly escape from you.

FriQenstein.5218:

Logic… you have none.
Thief cannot deny they are enjoying their little stealth ‘glitch’ and continue to complain about all sorts of other things they call ‘game breaking’… ya. Great logic.

Thieves are also enjoying being hit by attacks like rapid fire, and life drain for the entire duration of their stealth period. You know, the one that’s extended by a glitch.

Both should be fixed. Not one. Not the other. Both.

FriQenstein.5218:

This is a funny post.
Until the thief stealth bug actually gets fixed properly, you have nothing to complain about. Period.

Then until the tracking bug gets fixed, you have nothing to complain about either.

Logic.

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Your post says “stays in the refuge”

No strawman here.

Probably because the post I was quoting talks about it.

Read, THEN post.

Still not a strawman. I replied to what you posted, and exactly what you posted. If you don’t want people to talk about shadow refuge, then don’t talk about it.

They can’t. Map is full, and it’s not an overflow.

bump. We need a response here. Many people are waiting around, worried that they’ll miss out on the event rewards if they leave.

Best animations, and voices, combined with seeming to run faster due to their small stature.

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Your post says “stays in the refuge”

No strawman here.

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

Depotboy.6204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Believe it or not, I can make my TV record the Superbowl, and watch it later.

There will surely be people posting the final event on YouTube for you to watch later.

Watching a football game = watching a football game

Playing a video game =/= watching a video game

Believe it or not, I can make my TV record the Superbowl, and watch it later.

Xae.7204:

milo.6942:

@Xae
You are making a joke, but you said everything right except i would replace “thief” with “high burst specs”. This is how guild wars is played. This is not other mmo where u sit there fighting for 3 hrs, this is the game where you can die in under 3 seconds if you are bad. Bad players think they can play glass cannon but they get owned and cry for nerfs. Thankfully arenanet not paying attention to them.

Show me another class that can burst for 20K in ~2 seconds (with haste) and do it while mixing in CC while approaching from stealth and a 0 cooldown gap closer.

Do that and I will change it to “burst damage”, instead of “Thieves”.

The “Problem” with thieves isn’t the burst just by the numeric value, but by how trivial it is to get off the burst.

A warrior and burst for 15K, but the move requires a build up, is telegraphed and the delay in casting lets CC fall off avoiding “CC-> Dead”.

Also, wake me up when an Engineer, Necro, Ranger, Guardian or Mesmer can, in the first 2 seconds of the fight, burst for 20K. Other classes require build up to burst that high. If they can at all, and that is a mighty big “if”.

That build up is key. If a Mesmer gets out 2 Berserkers and times a shatter and a channel to match the ’zerkers attack to burst you for 15k he spent 15+ seconds setting that up.

You’ll have a point when Rogues start fights at 0 initiative, until then you do not.

Warriors have a utility skill that can fully fill their adrenaline. As well as a heal skill.

Make a bunch of new characters, and play around with them in the Heart of the Mists. Find which one you like that way, and ignore other people’s suggestions that are based on how strong a class is, because you’ll be much happier as such.