(edited by Roybe.5896)
Here’s the problem with a boycott. NCSoft doesn’t care about concurrency. It costs them money. The more people that play, the more resources it costs. The are extremely concerned for retention. The likelihood you are ‘walking through the door’. WalMart doesn’t care if you go to Sears, they care if you go to Sears MORE than WalMart. That’s retention. To measure retention, in this game, actually costs YOU more money. Because you have to stop logging in completely. If you do that during the LS, you’ll have to pay to catch up.
So boycotting is actually expensive to do, for the player, since the best way to check retention is to count the logins during new release dates to see if interest is being maintained. If you miss, you either come back and pay some gems to get caught up or you never come back, and are replaced by new sales of ‘boxes’. (now you see the importance of the NPE!)
I you believe RNG is a reward system I want you to work for my company! I pay by flipping a coin on Friday. Heads I pay you your hourly wage, tails I pay you nothing. Great reward, right?
You do realize the gold grinding is also mainly based on RNG right? The fact that it grantees a stable income in the game is because of the high numbers of drops what then makes for a stable average number. (Thats how averages work).
And again there is somebody comparing it to work. I have see so many people make comparisons to work in these forums for a long time. Usually in a way to try and defend it. Apparently not seeing that the fact that you can compare a game to a job is a negative and so in stead of defending it you are proving the point against it.
The reason a game like this is getting compared to work, isn’t because it is work like in its gameplay (no one wants to play a game that’s work), it’s because the reward systems are expected to be related to the way employment is expected to be rewarding. You do something for x hours you expect x rewards. You are skillful at something you expect x% better rewards for those skills.
To put this in a different light, football players in the NFL base their pay on relative performance. X player has better capabilities than y player so they expect better rewards from the system.
Unfortunately, RNG appears to do this. however, it does not reward for skill or time played. The player falsely attributes RNG to this. Your chance of a drop never changes from roll to roll. It’s always the same.
People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.
What I’d really be interested in is the amount of bags opened total across all servers, and the amount of minis found total compared to that. Unfortunately, only ANet has those numbers, and I doubt they’d ever release them. It’s the only real indication if the chance works out the way ANet envisioned it, no amount of anecdotal evidence on the forums can come close to that.
I am certain it is a beautiful Normal Distribution curve! The problem with RNG is that:
1. Humans cannot tell if RNG is ‘tight’ or ‘loose’. Las Vegas has studied this and realized they could tighten up all the RNG slot machines because people could not tell the difference, so it was a bonus to the bottom line ot make them tighter, soince there was no down side repercussions. This was an ancillary discussion on this NPR show…[http://technation.podomatic.com/entry/2014-10-23T05_07_09-07_00]
2. RNG in MMO’s has become the de facto ‘reward’ system. Unfortunately, the only thing that is the reward in this system is the reinforcment of the brain’s dopamine based reward system.
Personally I see this as a problem of desire creation within a player base. Game devs want to create a strong desire in people to keep the player engaged enough to continue to buy their product. They can do this with either ‘good’ game design or ‘bad’ game design.
Good game design would be creating desire by adding new stories, content, game modes, strong characters, etc.
Bad game design is anything that is trying to utilize the more base motives of people. The easiest thing to program for is accessing the pathways of the brain that lead to addictive problems for those with a propensity to them, the brains natural reward pathway. Gambling type activities do this quite easily. The cycle of expectation, exhilaration, and payoff is quite compelling.
I you believe RNG is a reward system I want you to work for my company! I pay by flipping a coin on Friday. Heads I pay you your hourly wage, tails I pay you nothing. Great reward, right?
IIRC these stories were time gated in the original. Might be again?
Thank you all for the proper level of discourse. Since this is actually a topic that is being discussed by the economist of GW2, John Smith, I am certain that the points made here are being noticed.
Revenue down, squeeze the community w/o adding anything substantial for us to support.
&
http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-gemgateKeep up the good work NCsoft, I can see your making a great name for yourself with Wildstar and GW2.
This was all Arena Net (Americans). NC-Soft does no longer have a saying within GW2 as far as I know!
Just a reminder…Arenanet is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft.
I would love to see something like this. However, I refuse to believe that the changes we are seeing implemented are being done so by the dev team believing they are making for a better player experience, NPE excepted.
These changes appear to be monetization changes that are being pushed on the devs and us. The devs have to make them as palatable as possible. For those that are intolerable they have to hold their noses, code them in, then ride out the storm.
If what I believe is true, there can be no post mortem, or it will be very selective, since there is no way to bring about changes to these items without them risking their livelihoods. The purpose of the CDI’s is to find out what the community wants most, then ally those changes with some of the more distasteful monetization changes they will have to deal with from home office and find out how tolerant the community would be to other monetization plans.
Why?
How is this worse than the first time around where you could ONLY get a chance on it by using the gem store?
There’s a limited number of chances. this means, that other participants reduce your chance of winning
But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the ‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere they’r saying stuff like:
The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.What does this mean?
Basically – they will be picking 1000 wrappers, and giving rewards to their owners. The more wrappers you use, the bigger chance that one of them (or more) will be picked. The more wrappers other players will use, the less chance for yours to be picked. It’s theoretically possible that someone might use 1000 wrappers, and win every reward, leaving all other players with nothing.
And as for your chances… i’d expect the number of wrappers to be in millions (if not more, depending on how easy they will be to farm), mostly coming from a relatively small group of players.
Let’s look at this discussion from a different view. Would people be agreeable to this same system for precursors? Every month x numbers of each precursor can be won by a group of people turning in some type of ‘ticket’. The ‘ticket’ could also be purchased at a minimal price in the Gem Store. Would it be better or worse if the current possibility of RNG drops for these items would be removed and this was the only way to obtain them?
You are joking, right? In this system, the chances of getting precursors would get shifted even more towards those that can obtain more “chances”. The rich would get richer, the poor would get poorer. Definitly not a good idea.
Actually, I am quite serious. These skins are actually rarer in the game than precursors. So again, why should it matter if it’s these or those? I disagree with your rote ‘rich get richer..’ the only reason the rich are that way is because of luck. If it wasn’t everyone would be rich. If everything comes down to RNG, why is one more accpetable than the other?
First off let’s get two things straight here, this thing with the candy wrappers is a RAFFLE; which is similar to a lottery, however, it is not the same as gambling, by definition, which is why any organization can have a raffle, but gambling is only allowed where it is legal.
Yes it is considered gambling. Raffles are not legal everywhere.
Let’s look at this discussion from a different view. Would people be agreeable to this same system for precursors? Every month x numbers of each precursor can be won by a group of people turning in some type of ‘ticket’. The ‘ticket’ could also be purchased at a minimal price in the Gem Store. Would it be better or worse if the current possibility of RNG drops for these items would be removed and this was the only way to obtain them?
Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?That is not how random chance works.
You can put in a single wrapper and still win while someone who put in 10 000 wrappers might not win.
But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the
‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere
they’r saying stuff like:The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.What does this mean?
It is the legal disclaimer that the odds of winning cannot be determined until after all tickets have been counted. Look up any open ended lottery in the US, i.e. PowerBall, State lotteries, etc. This is unlike a scratch and win ticket where the number of winning tickets is known ahead of time vs. how many were produced and odds can be figured out.
Ok. So we have a lottery introduced. The Skritt collecting tickets for a chance at Halloween skins. Her’s a link to a post I asked of people what they think of this : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Let-s-Talk-About-the-Skin-Lottery/first#post4505522. As far as I’m concerned, do what you want with RNG. It doesn’t appear to matter. Make everything a lottery. People do not want skill based rewards. They just want to know they have a chance to win.
I have gotten two from the drops in the Labyrinth over 3 hours. I do not think I will get as many as someone that drops $35 in the store over two weeks, let alone $100.
However, this really isn’t about this fact. My concern is that we will be continually collecting stuff, that can also be purchased within the store for far less work than the actual collecting, then have to take a chance to get some item. To be honest, this doesn’t work for me as a ‘fun’ idea. I do not gamble with important things in my life, time or money.
I see there is plenty of indignation over the changes to the Gem Store. So I am to take it everyone is ok with the ‘give the ticket to the Skritt for chances to win one of 1000 Halloween skins’? If you hadn’t seen this, there is a Skritt in LA that is collecting foil wrappers (that drop from kills in game, or fortuitously, can be purchased for gems in the gem store) which you turn in, are ‘marked with your name’ and then pulled from a hat to have a chance at one of the Halloween weapons skin.
This ties in directly with John Smiths discussion here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/10#post4502542
Have we come so far in accepting RNG, that we are willing to accept a true lottery within a game? I enjoy getting loot as much as the next person, it just feels wrong to collect ‘silver tickets’ for a chance to win something. The sense of wrong is increased when someone can buy as many tickets as they can afford from the store. This isn’t a reward system, this is flat out gambling. I’m posting this not out of moral outrage. I like gambling! I’m posting this to ask the community if you feel that a lottery is a legitimate way to receive rewards in any game, particularly an MMO. I feel that a line is being crossed here and it needs to be recognized as a mistake. However, I might be wrong and it’s some weird sensibility I have. Please, keep this one civil. It would be to easy to shut this thread down and I do want Anet to get a good idea where we stand on this.
Gaile Gray
Is there, or is there not, an expansion being developed?
Chances of getting a yes/no/detailed answer from a dev is about the same as Pinocchio successfully lying:
My suggestion…at least it’s something.
Is there other things or places you could post that report, that are as subjective as possible, on the health of Guild Wars 2…
I am generally unhappy with most of the changes that have been made to this game as it is slowly moving it closer to a ‘cookie cutter’ MMO, something I do not want to play. However, you guys go on trying to remake the game into something else, someday you will have what you want, another vanilla MMO without any way to discern itself from others out there.
You hate perma content and love time gated, temp content that punishes a person for not playing but then say you rue the day that GW2 will become another “vanilla MMO”? You do realize that “vanilla MMO’s” revolve around gear/stat treadmills that punish a person for not playing right? You can’t take time off in a typical mmo. That’s time lost that could have been spent grinding best in stats, and if you wait long enough, you may have an entire new level of gear to ascend to making your life even more miserable because no one will be left to grind your current gear tier.
I feel like you decided to just sling “vanilla MMO” as some sort of platitude derogatory term rather than even think about what you were describing…
Glad you called me out on all this let’s see if i can explain myself and clarify.
“You hate perma content and love time gated, temp content that punishes a person for not playing but then say you rue the day that GW2 will become another “vanilla MMO”? You do realize that “vanilla MMO’s” revolve around gear/stat treadmills that punish a person for not playing right? You can’t take time off in a typical mmo. That’s time lost that could have been spent grinding best in stats, and if you wait long enough, you may have an entire new level of gear to ascend to making your life even more miserable because no one will be left to grind your current gear tier."
I do not ‘hate’. I become disappointed. I become disillusioned. If you got ‘hate’ out of that post, I apologize. When this game came out it was obviously stated that temporary content was going to be the norm. One and done events were expected by everyone. This sounded fantastic on paper. And would have been, with just one ‘simple’ implementation…that there would be an in game system of NPC’s that would have, in RP format, or newspaper headlines, etc. explained the situation as it currently stood. Walking around LA after the Karka attack, the NPC’s should have been abuzz with the news of what happened. This did not happen and left people in the dark. This was unfortunate. It also made some people upset, yourself obviously one of them. I was disappointed myself. I had missed, and continued to miss important things in the world. I had to [gasp] interact with RL people to find out what was happening. Interesting outcome to the way I thought the game was going to work. I could accept this outcome as it did help to increase player interaction. So I accepted the devs, and understood this was going to be the way the game worked.
I did not scream for massive changes of permanent content because I LIKE this idea. Hardcore is a choice. It is demanding. This demanded a visit to the game to play the content. It did not demand highly repetitive, boring play, with very serious minded people that treat the game as equivalent to the air they breath, demanding higher and higher levels of efficiency to fight over some crumb of gear that gated their regular in game experience. All you needed to do was log in and play regularly. Not to much of a demand if you are enjoying the game. Yes, not everyone could do this. That is why failing to inform those players of the changes through the use of in game means was a poor choice. Apparently, it was easier to amke this content permanent than do this. So we have what we have.
Just so you know, I have finished hardly any of the impermanent content that has been put out for the game. I was working 45+ hour/week. I was not upset about this fact. I knew it was going to happen. I have taken a few weeks off here and there and understood I would miss things. Would I have enjoyed the content? Certainly. Do I enjoy the freedom to play the content in my own time now? Yes. However, I am disappointed that the game continues to change from what it was supposed to be to what ‘everyone wants’. It is not ’everyone’s opinions’ that continue to drive changes. It is the loudest voices that do. Obviously, my voice (and others like mine) aren’t loud enough.
I dont remember any real changes in GW though im sure it was the same year in year out for a while when it was active…or has memory failed me?
I admit to the latter being possible….
Memory is such a weak creature! ;P The bottom of the page shows what was added each year.
Never played an mmo without a halloween and xmas, but anet still advertise theirs far more. I also never understood complaints about recycling old content – thats part of the course with most mmo festivals.
Living story is def something to hype more about though in my opinion. And i cant find how you got to the “interfering” conclusion either im afraid
Because Arenanet, until now, has always added to or changed up their holiday content. it was never a lot, a few extra quests, different minigame, etc. But it changed. Storylines moved on and were embellished. Mad King Thorn didn’t appear out of the mists. His story was built upon and expanded over the past 8 years. This is probably one of the most disturbing bits of news that has been put out since I’ve played this game. Something has changed at Arenanet, and apparently, it is going to cost us content that has never been allowed to stagnate.
I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.
I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.
Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.
A paycheck would be similar to gold that you receive for completing a dungeon because you know beforehand, what you will get, once you complete a certain task.
An RNG reward would be something unexpected, like a christmas bonus, employee of the month bonus, etc.
Christmas bonuses are mostly expected. I think most people would be furious if theirs were RNG. Makes me think of National Lampoons Christmas Jelly of the Month Club.
Employee of the month is mostly earned, so not really lottery style like RNG.
My point was that both arent guaranteed.
Most places that offer Christmas bonus base it on company performance/profitability, which is an extension of productivity and management. It is not based on the roll of a D20.
However, the other poster is correct. The base gold, karma, exp, etc. IS the real paycheck/reward. Anything else from a loot table SHOULD be a positive bonus to the reward loot drop. However, it doesn’t appear to work that way. The loot table drop above the base reward has come to mean the reward itself. Not receiving a ‘good’ (which is highly subjective) loot drop equates to not receiving any reward.
This is my issue. When an RNG drop becomes synonymous with a given reward system, there is something wrong. When the reward system becomes so unrewarding to a player base that they find it more aggravating with each new drop because they didn’t get their lucky roll, yet again, the ‘normal drop’ feels punishing. Although there are plenty of changes that Arenanet can enact (all of which will have an impact on the game in mostly negative ways), I believe player expectations need to be examined, and see if those expectations are actually aligned with the goals of the game.
Should players be expecting better loot drops from the game they are playing? Why? Are loot systems between games comparable? Should they be? Should loot rewards be the main reason that a player plays an MMO?
Many of these expectations are not being handled correctly, e.g. a lot of the complaints and suggestions about content, loot, etc. keep exemplifying a vertical rather than horizontal progression. That will not be fixed or changed within this game. Nor does it seem that the players are willing to adjust their attitudes towards loot..particularly when basing it on other MMO’s in the genre. Which have completely different systems in place for loot and drops.
To bring this back to topic, GW2 has a solid reward system, that is being overshadowed by a couple of issues that are of annoyance to people, degrading their overall experience due to misaligned expectations about RNG and rewards. Changing the RNG will decrease the satisfaction related to these items from these bonus drops since more of them will become common. Short of demanding the players to ‘get over it’ and get their attitudes aligned to the way rewards work in this game the way to fix this, as a developer, is to either make the items dropped a true reward based on doing something (a token system) or lessen the frustration of the player base by increasing the drop rate (noting that this actually is manipulating the way the brains reward system gets rewarded, this might or might not be perceived as a true reward by the players) .
(edited by Roybe.5896)
To clarify: ectos are not at all stable – they bounce around, sometimes pretty radically, with every patch – but unlike every other high value, high volume commodity, A.Net has a history of making changes to protect its price and increase demand for ectos. I wouldn’t want to get too invested in T6 fine or silk as I can easily see A.Net introducing new sources to push the prices on those down – but not for ectos.
Pretty sure that ectos have maintained a pretty thin range within given time periods. It is not a perfect hedge, that would be the minimum priced items (since those items cannot lose value, but only gain them, and can be sold immediately for merchant prices with only a small loss) but it appears, as you suggested, to be one Arenanet watches and have generally utilized in a way to consistently increase demand.
I agree with John on this and from what I have seen online in the various forums here and elsewhere GW2 people for different reasons/wants/desires/likes all agree on one thing, among everything else. ALL believe that an expansion in the traditional sense of a content package is the only viable vehicle that can deliver what the majority of the veteran/regular player base wants and needs for the enjoyment of their gaming experience and online leisure time.
This has been communicated in many different ways and forms but we the player base have no real proof that this opinion has been heard and actioned by those that “green light” development proposals…….
I disagree. ‘All’ do not want an expansion. I do not want an expansion, vet from Gw1, with over 4000 hours in GW2. I enjoyed the impermanent content provided during Season 1. It redefined ‘hardcore’ from playing select content to playing everyday and being plugged into the story.
Did I rage over it when they changed this to permanent content. No. It was an unacceptable change to the overall way the game was played, changed the advertised game to something completely different, AND obviously pulled resources from the content production of the game, however, it was not my decision. I still enjoyed the game, the freedom was liberating, but the goal of not missing something was gone.
Would I rage over an expansion? No, but I have reasonable expectations. First it would mean LESS content over a very long period of time going forward OR it means the paucity of current content has been subverted towards something that no one would want if they were not preparing for a ‘super secret’ expansion. These are things I would not be happy about, but I understand the issue. Most, particularly on these forums, do not. They want their cake and want to be able to eat it to. Remember, getting what you ask for has costs. Believe me on this, no matter how big an expansion put forth, there will be plenty of people saying it wasn’t big enough, to little to late, etc.
I am generally unhappy with most of the changes that have been made to this game as it is slowly moving it closer to a ‘cookie cutter’ MMO, something I do not want to play. However, you guys go on trying to remake the game into something else, someday you will have what you want, another vanilla MMO without any way to discern itself from others out there.
I think rng in general is ok, it’s always exciting to open a loot-bag and find something of value to me.
This is a manipulation of the brains Reward system. It is not a true reward…the ‘feels’ you get from the opening of the bag is the reward. It is reinforced when you get something that further excites you.
MMO’s with pure RNG have an issue that Las vegas figured out long ago. You need to keep your playerbase excited all the time, keeping the brains reward system stimulated as long as possible. Look at video poker machines and slot machines. They are surrounded by exciting lights, sounds, etc. This helps in maintaining the user in front of the machine waiting for that payoff. They just lost again? Ooo shinies, let’s play again.
Without constant stimulation, or a payoff to the activity, the initial reward effect becomes diminished to the point that it becomes an aggravation, with the person feeling that they are being teased incessantly to the point of punishment. This state can be enjoyable to some people, however, they are a very small minority, and the average person would leave once this becomes obvious to them.
I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.
I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.
Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.
(edited by Roybe.5896)
If Gold:Gem conversion is going to inflate so much and Gem Shop Armor and Weapon skins are considered rewards, maybe make those purchases a little sweeter.
I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year.
I would like to look at this discussion of inflation vs. RNG a little closer. First we need to look at definitions for both these terms
Wiki says:
In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. (Ceteris Paribis)
Proper pricing is decided at a point on the supply/demand curve when they are in equilibrium.
So, when we examine the pricing of gems, what increases are based on the money supply and what increases are based on supply/demand?
Early in MMO’s things are very interesting in markets, because coin is in short supply and no one knows what will be in demand. There does come a point of inflationary stresses within the system just because more coin is freely generated and not removed from the overall economy. As the player base starts to find ways to get more coin, eventually the amount of coin will stabilize. As well as the market. That is what John’s ultimate job is. To be sure that the amount of coin in game remains stable.
I do not believe the prices of gems to gold, or any other price in game, are currently related to inflation. Consider gems to gold a measure of how many are playing the ‘avoid paying cash game’ compared to those that pay cash. The more people that are playing the game with avoidance to the cash shop, the higher the demand for gems, the higher the price. The lower the demand for gems the lower the price (these being true IF gem sales hold steady). Conversely, if people convert gems to gold, it creates downwards pressure on price.
Now, RNG related to this is interesting. Rarity in the face of high demand creates HUGE disparities in pricing. Look at the price of leather, compared to precursors, compared to legendaries. 1000%‘s of difference. This is not inflationary….this is simple supply and demand. ’Fixing’ the RNG to remove any part of the left hand side of the normal distribution will have an effect on overall pricing, not because there is deflationary pressures, but because those items will become less rare.
I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.
RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.
This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.
there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.
I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.
You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.
Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.
It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.
You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.
In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.
You misunderstood what was being discussed. Of course everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand. That’s undeniable. What I was arguing is that not all items should or have to be at that point. Precursors were intended to be incredibly rare. So of course their supply level will not equal the demand level. This gap was intended.
Perhaps I could have worded it better. Does the following change portray my intent more clearly? The changes are in bold.
You’re going under the assumption that all items must be at an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.
Equilibrium is the point at which supply meets demand. The equilibrium point met=price. Equilibrium changes based on both supply and demand, creating a new point of equilibrium. I am still not sure what you are saying. Price is driven down by overproduction while demand remains fixed. Price is also driven down as demand wanes and production remains fixed. Equilibrium is the point where these two factors meet.
This market allows for both of these issues to change based on player whim, so equilibrium points change over time..this is volatility. So I think what you are saying is that volatility does not need to be controlled and fluctuation in price is an example of a healthy market. Yes, you are correct! Sorry for my long windedness.
Realign your expectations with the idea that Arenanet will not be making a large expansion but will be adding to the game in incremental Living Story updates and you will be much happier with the outcomes. Just saying.
Glad to see someone looked up the facts! >:)
Please look up horizontal progression. Then reconsider your purchase.
question to arena net how do u build items in game that dont have item progression only dress up skin chase on raids also when raids come instanced ones what kid of items we gonna receive i personally dont care about skins i like to make my character stronger and stronger whit higher statcs and i know gw is not that kind of game so are u gonna give me just skin and accivments on raids ?
Because, in short, this game is not about gear grinding. At any given level all drops are equivalent…with very few exceptions. At level 80, all gear is equivalent based on rarity. This has been the goal of this game from its inception. Best in slot has very small increases to overall functionality related to the next best item.
If you are a person that desires vertical rather than horizontal progression, unfortunately you did not understand this game when you bought it.
How does the damage compare to armor penetration? I understand the stack problem, and agree there should be a way to address this. However, condis that damage ignore armor. I haven’t done the math but if I show a direct damage hit for 3500 points is that before or after the armor reduction?
Most stable item historically has been globs of ecto. I also agree with gems. Also anything that is selling near merchant price within the trading post. It will remain at that price if nothing changes, and can only go up if there is an increase in demand.
Choice 2.5 can be a good compromise. My question, how do you balance the difference between the RNG and the tokens? How many standard deviations to the left are we trying to limit? Just the last 1%? 3%?
Also this benefits the time rich people while hurting the player with less time. Shouldn’t these tokens be saleable to help maintain the interest of the time poor class of people?
I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.
RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.
This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.
there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.
I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.
You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.
Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.
It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.
You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.
In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.
We just had a free trial period. maybe people tried it and bought in!?!?
Sorry to say but most of the suggestions / opinions in what of the thread I’ve read are in my opinion rubbish. You gotta start from the basics. Being a fanboy which I am is one thing but fair’s fair, and you can’t have enjoyable new content (especially not raids) with utterly pathetic non-working mentally challenged laughably ineffective AI with apparent zero thought behind it.
No.
while not dead
/target closest player
if 1 not on cd cast 1 else
if 2 not on cd cast 2 else
if 3 not on cd cast 3 else
if 4 not on cd cast 4 else
if 5 not on cd cast 5 endif
returnis NOT AI. Fire the guy who wrote it and use my script it will be of the same efficiency. I require no credit. Use the money saved to hire REAL programmer.
http://intrinsicalgorithm.com/IANews/2014/04/now-consulting-at-arenanet-on-guild-wars-2/
Hope this makes a difference.
Can’t wait to see challenging group content in gw2.
You don’t have to! Go do Tequatl, Evolved Jungle Worm, Aetherblad path in Twilight Arbor dungeon! Enjoy!
@Vlad Find out how much NCSoft would sell it for! Then start it up!
Communication theory, 101.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343
The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.
Actually, the community must understand their place in the communication process. We do not have any power in the process, this is true. However, our input does make a difference. Knowing these two facts, and taking them to heart is what is needed.
I repeat this…players have no power in the discussion. (The ONLY power they hold is to stop spending money on the game. This not only hurts the company, but is also cutting off their own nose to spite their face, as long as they desire to play the game. Many players overestimate the importance of this power source. Hint: It is the most important in business, but must be wielded by so many, in coordination, that it is ineffective).
What the forums equate to currently is a suggestion box at a place of business, with all the problems that entails. How frustrating is it that people put 1000’s of suggestions into the box and nothing comes from it, or worse, the suggestions you put in are acted on, but somehow make the workplace even worse to work in.
There is a way to begin to fix this issue. Announce all the suggestions that have been received. Also announce which ones have been implemented. This is the one of the important reasons behind the CDI. Another is the sheer quantity of ideas the CDI can generate from the CDI. However, ideas are just that. No matter how well thought out the suggestion it still has to be implemented into the system, which means it will be changed. Unfortunately, these changes introduce the second problem
The problem I do not know how to fix. This is the one dealing with improper implementation. Without a verification procedure, i.e. a true communication process, implementation of suggestions can lead to bigger communication problems.
The Commander Tag fiasco is a perfect example. It is apparent that the idea was received properly, but the implementation of the suggestion went directly against the reasons for the change to be implemented. This was either a major communication failure, or poor decision making base on inputs. Your choice of either answer is your opinion, which with the lack if information, keeps it in that realm, and increases the psychological noise of the player. We can point out similar problems in many other areas.
If players understand the above, and lower their expectations of the outcome from their suggestions, no matter how many suggest the same thing, we can get suggesting with less noise in the channels, leading to better suggestions. Implementation is up to the devs. Improper implementation is the true crux of this style of communication, and one that we must live with.
TLDR of the above: Anet dropped the soap and wants you to pick it up.
If Anet wants to continue making games they will have to change their tune. They do not have anything apart from the guild wars franchise and they won’t if they stick to their stubborn, we don’t talk about stuff in development, attitude.
TLDR
If those in the forum community do not understand their place in the current structure, they will leave in numbers to small to matter.
Overblown expectations of suggestions given are the main reason for these peoples discontent. Arenanet’s lack of transparency only exacerbates this problem.
__________________________________________________________________
NcSoft, controlled by Nexon, will always make games, with or without the help of Arenanet. Arenanet can fight whatever battles it wants against these changes, but in the end what the boss says, goes.
Communication theory, 101.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343
The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.
Actually, the community must understand their place in the communication process. We do not have any power in the process, this is true. However, our input does make a difference. Knowing these two facts, and taking them to heart is what is needed.
I repeat this…players have no power in the discussion. (The ONLY power they hold is to stop spending money on the game. This not only hurts the company, but is also cutting off their own nose to spite their face, as long as they desire to play the game. Many players overestimate the importance of this power source. Hint: It is the most important in business, but must be wielded by so many, in coordination, that it is ineffective).
What the forums equate to currently is a suggestion box at a place of business, with all the problems that entails. How frustrating is it that people put 1000’s of suggestions into the box and nothing comes from it, or worse, the suggestions you put in are acted on, but somehow make the workplace even worse to work in.
There is a way to begin to fix this issue. Announce all the suggestions that have been received. Also announce which ones have been implemented. This is the one of the important reasons behind the CDI. Another is the sheer quantity of ideas the CDI can generate from the CDI. However, ideas are just that. No matter how well thought out the suggestion it still has to be implemented into the system, which means it will be changed. Unfortunately, these changes introduce the second problem
The problem I do not know how to fix. This is the one dealing with improper implementation. Without a verification procedure, i.e. a true communication process, implementation of suggestions can lead to bigger communication problems.
The Commander Tag fiasco is a perfect example. It is apparent that the idea was received properly, but the implementation of the suggestion went directly against the reasons for the change to be implemented. This was either a major communication failure, or poor decision making base on inputs. Your choice of either answer is your opinion, which with the lack if information, keeps it in that realm, and increases the psychological noise of the player. We can point out similar problems in many other areas.
If players understand the above, and lower their expectations of the outcome from their suggestions, no matter how many suggest the same thing, we can get suggesting with less noise in the channels, leading to better suggestions. Implementation is up to the devs. Improper implementation is the true crux of this style of communication, and one that we must live with.
(edited by Roybe.5896)
Communication theory, 101.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343
Birthday presents are meant to be for the character, not the account. This is an incentive to NOT delete characters. I have no problems with these being soulbound. It makes game sense and business sense.
i think there will be no expansion for guild wars 2.
the living story is a good platform to deliver expansion content.
You don’t find it too slow?
I think it CAN be a good platform but I am not sure anet has/can figured it how to make it work. Also, there’s alot of problems one of the biggest ones I think is;
How does anet monetize on this without the community feeling nicked and dimed at every turn with the living story?
I’d like to know the thoughts of anyone who has opinion about this also.
yes, at the moment, i feel that it is slow.
however, i do not mind that.
because, it allows me to spend time on other games other than guild wars 2.regarding monetizing, i think they are doing well with the constant update of gem store skins.
This is a problem.
If GW2 wants to be a primary game and play with the big boys they need to get people to go to them first and have their name on the top of the list.
Here’s the rub. You are considering concurrency with retention. Concurrency is how many people play at a time. Retention is how many people will ‘buy’ the next product. Concurrency looks at how many people are on a map, in a town, etc. Retention is how many people login…to download new content, look at the gem store, etc. These are 2 numbers that are different. NCSoft does not care for concurrency as much as they care about retention. Concurrency costs money. Retention potentially increases profits. It doesn’t matter to NCsoft if I play D3 for 6 moths rather than GW2, as long as I login to get new content every time it drops. WalMart doesn’t care if you shop at Sears, as long as you enter their store more than Sears.
Replace ‘they need to…’ with ‘I want them to…’. I would love content the size of GW1 Nightfall every 2 weeks. That is impossible to do. I’m pretty sure the size of the content adds you desire are near impossible also. The amount of content we’ve received is fine, particularly as it was no cost to us. Your mileage may, and pr0obably does, vary. Would an expansion be nice? Sure. Do they need to do it? The jury is still out. Would people come back for an expansion? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on why they left.
A figure I’d like to see is a % of active players that have finished what % of all of the content. That would be very telling.
I really don’t see how that would be relevant, it should be more along the lines of what % of what content was completed and how many times. This would give a much better idea of the focus needed to develop content, for instance I have successfully completed 1 dungeon, I don’t care for dungeon content at all, never have, never will. As a game company you know going in that a percentage will finish everything but many won’t and thus what you provide will only ever satisfy to a degree.
Also I’m sorry but the got what you paid for thing is getting tiresome, many of us still here continued to support the game through gem purchases believing we were doing so to get more content and keep the game alive and not outright funding them produce a version for China.
Nowhere did this come to light prior and for good reason, how many would have shut the faucet off knowing this. That being said I don’t put much stock in the got what you paid for argument because frankly I’ve likely invested more than I would have into a subscription based game and have received very little for it this past year.
All bad choices you decided to make. I bought stuff from the store because I liked it. My support through purchases has nothing to do with the direction of the game, nor its survival. I continue to get my money’s worth while I continue to have fun. It’s a game. I don’t ‘play’ anything unless I am enjoying myself.
Misaligned expectations are just that. To keep them aligned on what you want, rather than what you have, is unproductive. You can try to make suggestion to a multimillion dollar company, but expecting them to listen is unrealistic. They might, they might not…or worse, figure out some way to give you what you want and charge you more for it. Sorry you feel like you overpaid, or worse, are entitled to something because you gave money to it. Next time I would suggest getting a contract for your demands. You’re expectations not being met are causing you distress and are self inflicted.
It doesn’t matter how many times the playerbase has finished something. The important fact is how many haven’t finished it at all. I do not care how many times someone grinds something. I want to know what % of my population that is active still has fresh content before them. If to many have fresh content then any new content means that my population is lagging behind releases and I am overspending on my content creation. I can use my assets to better the game in other ways, rather than feeding a few people constantly. That’s why it’s more important.
(edited by Roybe.5896)
I would think the best way, since we already have so many tokens, would be some token system that would represent a failed roll. If Precursors are on the same roll table as other items, then this makes sense. Your reward is this item BUT you could have won a precursor. Sorry for the bad luck, try again.
If precursors are on their own table that is only accessed very rarely, then how do you do this? Every attempt gets you x tokens? If this is the case, then there is no need for a roll for a precursor..just make them token bound. It would be nice to have the possibility for it, but honestly, no one is grinding events for a precursor. They are grinding for the loots to sell for a precursor. If the one they want drops, or is equivalent in value to the one they want, then great. But a precursor dropping has become a bit of a joke amongst the community.
There are CERTAINLY very vocal players that are convinced of the “secret LUCK stat”.[/quote]
Because in GW1, there was such an animal. Magic Find was not an advertised number, and was actually modified by activities (opening presents either provided a buff or a
decrease to this number, that lasted until the following years Lunar event. (I think it was the Canthan New Year event).
The current system is not purely transparent, so there might be buffs/debuffs based on things like like attendance, early participation, etc. We do not know. All variations have not been tried to verify or disprove combinations. Nor can they. Without transparency outcomes become speculative.
When dealing with RNG, game devs have to be mindful of gambling laws, and IMHO, (more importantly) human folly. It does no one any good if people become addicted to the reward system of any game, leading to poor personal outcomes to Real Life. There is a fine moral line that must be walked.
That being said, there is a real problem with the current state of affairs in this game and its RNG. Many people have figured out the safest way to get a precursor is to farm Champ bags, Dungeons, and other low risk/high reward activities. The sales of these rewards will net you a precursor faster than trying for a drop. The unfortunate outcome to this will be an ever increasing demand over time. If the RNG stays stable for any of these items, prices will be on an ever increasing spiral. This is creating a different type of gear treadmill. As more items have Legendary quality, the treadmill will widen, frustrations will increase, and more will become disenfranchised to the idea of getting a Legendary.
(edited by Roybe.5896)
The pace of content additions currently is too slow, and they need to improve it if they expect retain players. The method of delivery doesn’t really matter.
^^^This
If they want to keep going with the LS for content delivery then they need to add a map a month. Not a single map piece meal per LS season. They need to release a new playable class and race per LS season. They need to add more traits and skills per LS season. They need to add more weapons per LS season and I mean weapons not skins. It could be just reusing current weapons but adding them to classes that currently can not use them. Like rifles or bows for guardians. These are the kind of things many of us were expecting from the living story but arenanet failed to deliver.
Looking at arenanets recent track history with GW2 I have to say its very unlikely that we will see an expansions worth of content added to the game before any one unlocks a full set of achievement armor. That is even with including the stuff they have already added.
Replace ‘they need to…’ with ‘I want them to…’. I would love content the size of GW1 Nightfall every 2 weeks. That is impossible to do. I’m pretty sure the size of the content adds you desire are near impossible also. The amount of content we’ve received is fine, particularly as it was no cost to us. Your mileage may, and pr0obably does, vary. Would an expansion be nice? Sure. Do they need to do it? The jury is still out. Would people come back for an expansion? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on why they left.
A figure I’d like to see is a % of active players that have finished what % of all of the content. That would be very telling.
If Anet decided to go without an expansion, they’ve ultimately doomed their own game 5 years beforehand. Such a bad call and such a shame…
So you don’t believe the living world can keep retention up?
Everyone, what would it take for the living world to retain you as a long term player if no traditional expansion is in the works?
First we need two things
1. define retention in a game that you paid once and play forever
2. Define the metric measuring this.
When you try to do this do not get concurrency mixed up with retention. These are 2 very different things.